Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Selvarin 10-30-03, 10:38 PM	Just taking part of another thread and starting it over here, folks, since it doesn't exactly belong in the Ask Richard Baker thread. Originally posted by Endur_Stonehelm You raise a good point about the novel/game translation. For instance, the Silver Marches pegs Bruenor as being a 13th level Fighter. While Bruenor should be less in level than Drizzt, both Bruenor and Drizzt have to be over 16th level to be true to the novels. Drizzt is the best warrior in the Forgotten Realms, which means he is obviously going to be higher than 16th. On the other hand, Bruenor is the creator of Aegis Fang, and he needs 7-9 caster levels to create Aegis Fang in addition to his fighter levels. My interpretation of levels based on the novels is that Bruenor is level 20. 13th level fighter with 7 caster levels. Drizzt is epic level. Wulfgar, Regis, and Catti-brie are somewhere below Bruenor. But the weakest of them has far more combat experience than Ivan and Pikel. Drizzt defeated a Balor in one on one combat in his very first novel. Drizzt is tough. When using part of what happened in the earlier Drizzt books as part of the gauging process it's certain to screw things up, since not all can be satisfactorily explained or put in D&D terms. In the Forgotten Realms there was (and still is to some extent) the idea that dwarves were skilled enough to create such items without being spellcasters themselves. Bruenor's a fighter who's a very skilled smith but to the best of my knowledge (foggy as it is), he didn't cast any spells so he obviously didn't have any clerical ability. Yet he did create magic items. This cannot be implemented in a good way using any of the official WotC prestige classes or rules. The closest I've found is the Magesmith PrC found in Hammer & Helm (Green Ronin Publishing), but even in that case it requires the ability to cast 2nd-level arcane or divine spells. One possibility is to rig up an alternative method by which any dwarf who consistently maxes out the pertinent craft skills is allowed to bypass the usual requirements and take Craft Magic Arms & Armor , as well as to mimic or bypass certain prereqs when it comes to forging such magic items. Outside of a PrC, though, it gets very trcky. Level-wise, I can't complain about Bruenor's level. 13th level is pretty tough, in my opinion, although he could easily have been upwards of 15th level. As for Drizzt, his levels are constrained somewhat in order to keep him non-epic, also Pandora's box was thrust open after his father's stats (and Drizzt's original levels as a fighter) were provided in the Menzoberranzen boxed set. The balor is a good example of a tough monster that he fought, but what was the balor like at the time it was written about? 1E AD&D was still kicking at that time, and while tough then it seems to me they aren't half as tough as they are now (3E/3.5E). That one has to be tossed, in fact a number of complications came about due to several game revisions (such as Drizzt's special powers, etc.). If you wanted to be absolute about it, you go back to the Menzo references about him starting as a 18th-level fighter and make him into a Ftr 18/Rgr 5/Brb 1. Question is how would that jibe with how he is in today's novels? In reality Drizzt was probably tougher in earlier books, both in 1E/2E terms as well as today's terms, but it doesn't fit with the novels of today. Both the game designers (and RAS) chose to take the golden 'S' back off of his chest and keep him within more reasonable (read: within the range of PC/NPC) levels.
Bloodtide_the_Red 10-31-03, 12:03 AM	There is an explanation for Bruenor's crafting of Aegis Fang in the novel. The idea is once in every dwarves life they are granted the ability to make a great wonderous item. This is a blessing form Mordin. Bruenor does not use the 'normal item creation rules'(even for that time). It's a special case. This has never been covered in a rule book, it's just in the novel. It's hard to say Drizzit is 'the best wairror in the Realms'. Sure, he is at the top...but it's hard to say he is 'the best'. We realy don't have too many great fighter-types to compare him too. It's hard to do the game level vs novel need. When you write a story you don't want to be tied down to the rules. The rules are very clear...if your level X you can do Y. So if you say the character is level X then you have to watch out for the things he could or could not do. Examples(in 3.5 rules)...if you say she is a 5th level druid then you can't have the bad guys track her footprints(she got Trackless Step at 3rd level) Or if they are a 10th level wizard...it would be odd if they only casted spells of 3rd level or lower all the time. BT
Selvarin 10-31-03, 02:12 AM	Originally posted by Bloodtide_the_Red There is an explanation for Bruenor's crafting of Aegis Fang in the novel. The idea is once in every dwarves life they are granted the ability to make a great wonderous item. This is a blessing form Mordin. Bruenor does not use the 'normal item creation rules'(even for that time). It's a special case. This has never been covered in a rule book, it's just in the novel. It's hard to say Drizzit is 'the best wairror in the Realms'. Sure, he is at the top...but it's hard to say he is 'the best'. We realy don't have too many great fighter-types to compare him too. It's hard to do the game level vs novel need. When you write a story you don't want to be tied down to the rules. The rules are very clear...if your level X you can do Y. So if you say the character is level X then you have to watch out for the things he could or could not do. Examples(in 3.5 rules)...if you say she is a 5th level druid then you can't have the bad guys track her footprints(she got Trackless Step at 3rd level) Or if they are a 10th level wizard...it would be odd if they only casted spells of 3rd level or lower all the time. BT Aha, thanks! I never got around to reading The Crystal Shard , my first exposure was with Streams of Silver . I read snippets from TCS but just that. As for the game vs. novel thing, it can be quite difficult. In order to be true to the game it's easy enough to get tripped up when something changes, etc.
Zanan 10-31-03, 11:14 AM	Just a couple of remarks ... - The deed of Bruenor, as in: creating Aegis-fang, is not possible in 3e or 3RE. It's as simple as that. No need to reintroduce it there or change him around from AD&D - dunno, how this crafting of magical items was back then though. I can happily live with the notion that the dwarf actually had some sort of asistance by a cleric or ... ah well ... no dwarf mage for me ... or his god. - Drizzt defeating the balor. NOT even in AD&D would he have done so. It is as simple as that as well. Any DM knows of what a balor is able to do, knows the spells he can work and all that. It needs more than a frost scimitar and fighting skills to defeat such a tanar'ri. As in: it was a novel and Drizzt is a hero. :bow: :ayyyy!:
Fredegar The White 10-31-03, 01:59 PM	The balor was defeated once but the second time it took their whole team to take him out! My objection is Wulfgar. I always saw him as 10 level barbarian with 2-3 fighter levels cause he trained with DiDrizzit! Bruenor should be the same character level as Drizzt.
Taeleraed_Saahdel 10-31-03, 03:31 PM	How in the nine hells do you pronounce his name anyway. I say Drizzt (rhyming with RITZ, the cracker) or is it Driz-IT? I don't know anymore. The manual for bioware's Baldur's Gate II: Shadows of Amn pronounces it DRITZ, where the player who created him says that his name, when pronounced improperly, sounded like a popular brand of cracker. I would assume that means that ti is Drizz-IT right? Only the Seldarine knows anymore...:(
HoylePhoenix 10-31-03, 03:37 PM	Originally posted by Zanan Just a couple of remarks ... - The deed of Bruenor, as in: creating Aegis-fang, is not possible in 3e or 3RE. It's as simple as that. No need to reintroduce it there or change him around from AD&D - dunno, how this crafting of magical items was back then though. I can happily live with the notion that the dwarf actually had some sort of asistance by a cleric or ... ah well ... no dwarf mage for me ... or his god. - Drizzt defeating the balor. NOT even in AD&D would he have done so. It is as simple as that as well. Any DM knows of what a balor is able to do, knows the spells he can work and all that. It needs more than a frost scimitar and fighting skills to defeat such a tanar'ri. As in: it was a novel and Drizzt is a hero. :bow: :ayyyy!: I'm too lazy to grab the book and thumb through to the page, but Bruenor did use a scroll to get the desired effect, not a spell cast by a cleric or wizard. This is what allowed him to craft the hammer, and what IMO would still allow him to in 3.0, 3.5, or any edition. As for Drizzt defeating the Balor...one could easily concieve of this as being a set of critical hits on Drizzt's part and bad rolls on the Balor's. Also, he underestimated Drizzt the first time, so he didn't use his full potential before Drizzt had defeated him. You do notice that when they meet again, he doesn't go down as easily.:cool:
HoylePhoenix 10-31-03, 03:41 PM	Originally posted by Taeleraed_Saahdel How in the nine hells do you pronounce his name anyway. I say Drizzt (rhyming with RITZ, the cracker) or is it Driz-IT? I don't know anymore. The manual for bioware's Baldur's Gate II: Shadows of Amn pronounces it DRITZ, where the player who created him says that his name, when pronounced improperly, sounded like a popular brand of cracker. I would assume that means that ti is Drizz-IT right? Only the Seldarine knows anymore...:( While I'm not sure what Salvatore himself wanted the name to sound like, I remember from Baldur's Gate when Drizzt himself declared his name that it sounded like 'Drist', the same way mist is pronounced.
Selvarin 10-31-03, 04:00 PM	'Drist' is good enough pronunciation, that's the best I can say his name too. Hmm, Fredegar, I almost agree with you there. Perhaps a Brb 9/Ftr 2. That would be pretty fair. But I still think Bruenor's (more or less) accurately statted.
Endur_Stonehelm 10-31-03, 05:00 PM	I concur that the leveling gets interesting, but part of that is because AD&D was intended for characters of level 1-10. 3e was intended for characters of 1-20. So many of the top monsters in AD&D 1e were intended to be defeated by 10th level characters. In 3e, many of these same monsters were intended to be defeated by 20th level characters. So the Monsters were adjusted upwards. Likewise, many of the NPCs were adjusted upwards (Elminister, etc.). But for some reason, Drizzt and company were not adjusted upwards. Drizzt's scimitar IcingDeath (named after the Dragon he and Wulfgar slew) was found in a Dragon's Hoard. From an author perspective, Salvatore intended IcingDeath to essentially fill the role of a Paladin's Holy Sword. "A scimitar, curving blade made out of silver and diamond edged." The Crystal Shard (1988). That is the weapon that killed a Balor. So how to convert that to 3e? +5 Silver Scimitar, Demon Bane Holy, Fire Resistance 30 Unless you buy the Drizzt is epic scenario, in which case: +10 Silver Scimitar, Dread Demonslayer, Holy Power, Fire Immunity The Balor in the novel said he'd never seen or heard of any weapon like it, which makes me think it was at least comparable to a holy avenger. And probably artifact class. Originally posted by Selvarin When using part of what happened in the earlier Drizzt books as part of the gauging process it's certain to screw things up, since not all can be satisfactorily explained or put in D&D terms. In the Forgotten Realms there was (and still is to some extent) the idea that dwarves were skilled enough to create such items without being spellcasters themselves. Bruenor's a fighter who's a very skilled smith but to the best of my knowledge (foggy as it is), he didn't cast any spells so he obviously didn't have any clerical ability. Yet he did create magic items. This cannot be implemented in a good way using any of the official WotC prestige classes or rules. The closest I've found is the Magesmith PrC found in Hammer & Helm (Green Ronin Publishing), but even in that case it requires the ability to cast 2nd-level arcane or divine spells. One possibility is to rig up an alternative method by which any dwarf who consistently maxes out the pertinent craft skills is allowed to bypass the usual requirements and take Craft Magic Arms & Armor , as well as to mimic or bypass certain prereqs when it comes to forging such magic items. Outside of a PrC, though, it gets very trcky. Level-wise, I can't complain about Bruenor's level. 13th level is pretty tough, in my opinion, although he could easily have been upwards of 15th level. As for Drizzt, his levels are constrained somewhat in order to keep him non-epic, also Pandora's box was thrust open after his father's stats (and Drizzt's original levels as a fighter) were provided in the Menzoberranzen boxed set. The balor is a good example of a tough monster that he fought, but what was the balor like at the time it was written about? 1E AD&D was still kicking at that time, and while tough then it seems to me they aren't half as tough as they are now (3E/3.5E). That one has to be tossed, in fact a number of complications came about due to several game revisions (such as Drizzt's special powers, etc.). If you wanted to be absolute about it, you go back to the Menzo references about him starting as a 18th-level fighter and make him into a Ftr 18/Rgr 5/Brb 1. Question is how would that jibe with how he is in today's novels? In reality Drizzt was probably tougher in earlier books, both in 1E/2E terms as well as today's terms, but it doesn't fit with the novels of today. Both the game designers (and RAS) chose to take the golden 'S' back off of his chest and keep him within more reasonable (read: within the range of PC/NPC) levels. [/B]
Darius the Barbarian 10-31-03, 06:57 PM	Icingdeath has always been a +3 weapon in all sources so I converted it to +3 solarian truesteel (looks like silver but bypasses DR like cold iron) holy icy burst scimitar. Of course, it could also grant some fire resistance and be an evil outsider bane weapon.
Selvarin 10-31-03, 07:42 PM	Originally posted by Endur_Stonehelm I concur that the leveling gets interesting, but part of that is because AD&D was intended for characters of level 1-10. 3e was intended for characters of 1-20. So many of the top monsters in AD&D 1e were intended to be defeated by 10th level characters. In 3e, many of these same monsters were intended to be defeated by 20th level characters. So the Monsters were adjusted upwards. Likewise, many of the NPCs were adjusted upwards (Elminister, etc.). But for some reason, Drizzt and company were not adjusted upwards. Drizzt's scimitar IcingDeath (named after the Dragon he and Wulfgar slew) was found in a Dragon's Hoard. From an author perspective, Salvatore intended IcingDeath to essentially fill the role of a Paladin's Holy Sword. "A scimitar, curving blade made out of silver and diamond edged." The Crystal Shard (1988). That is the weapon that killed a Balor. So how to convert that to 3e? +5 Silver Scimitar, Demon Bane Holy, Fire Resistance 30 Unless you buy the Drizzt is epic scenario, in which case: +10 Silver Scimitar, Dread Demonslayer, Holy Power, Fire Immunity The Balor in the novel said he'd never seen or heard of any weapon like it, which makes me think it was at least comparable to a holy avenger. And probably artifact class. That is a good point, true, both with regard to AD&D as well as the early Drizzt. The early Drizzt was more powerful in deed as well as in certain possessions. There are a number of reasons for retooling and nudging him down a bit. On the literary side, if he kept at it Drizzt would've become the Superman of the Forgotten Realms, which Salvatore has been trying to avoid. Where could the character go after going so far and so fast in just a few novels? On the gaming side, there is a desire among some to keep the levels within a 'reasonable' range, consequently his stats are expressed in the fewest levels possible. Certain things will get ignored for the sake of the overall picture. It's like when a few board members were given the task of figuring out what Liriel was in D&D terms. In the very first novel she cast a spell or two that would've easily marked her as a high-level wizard but it was knocked down a bit because no one couldn't say that she didn't place the spell from a purchased scroll into her amulet. In this case, if we eliminate the balor issue then maybe (just maybe) 16th level/CR 18 can be seen as reasonable. Then again, there's the issue about Zaknafein and here's where my head starts to hurt. :( There is one point to consider, that in FR 7 he was listed as having an improved critical/instant kill type attack. It was outside the game's mechanics but that was one way to help explain how it went way back when. These days it may be expressed better as Improved Critical with (perhaps) Greater Weapon Specialization...and...hmmm. I may end up getting the older books and rereading them, just to get a better feel for it. Ack.
Taeleraed_Saahdel 11-01-03, 04:27 AM	R.A. Salvator didn't come up with Drizzt. He merely elaborated the player characters history, it's in a Dragon magazine somewhere in the lost crevices of beneath my beneath my bed. I'll post it later...
Selvarin 11-01-03, 05:53 AM	I recall an interview where he's talking about scrambling to find another character for the first book (Wulfgar was meant to be the hero, after all), and he says to the book editor, "What about a drow ranger?"...or something to that effect. In any case I have Dragon issues #1-250 on my hard drive, I can do a name search and find one of the interviews that way. (I believe he also did a piece or two in Polyhedron, way back, discussing it.)
Tamsar 11-01-03, 06:01 AM	I always assumed and it has been portrayed that way that Icingdeath is a + Frostbrand Scimitar nothing more nothingless. The novels support this, errtu's flames be doused, Bruenor surviing the fall on shimmerglooms back while on fire. It's magic protected Bruenor in Mithrl Hall when he walked through a Duergar Furnace. In 1st and 2nd edition a frostbrand was a +6 weapon vs fire using/dwelling creatures. Errtu definitely qualifies as that :).
Selvarin 11-01-03, 06:03 AM	From Dragon #188: Drizzt's birth Readers of the Icewind Dale Trilogy know that Drizzt didn't start out as the main figure. When Wulfgar traveled from the Moonshae Isles across the Sea of Swords and north along the coast of Faerun to Icewind Dale five years ago, Salvatore had yet to conceive his most popular hero. The character was born during another phone conversation with Kirchoff, who asked the new author, "What are you going to do for [Wulfgar's] sidekick?" Although the author had never given the matter a moment's thought, he found himself saying, "I'll do a dark-elf ranger. There was a long pause as Kirchoff considered. "A drow? What's his name?" Again, inspiration seized the writer, and he blurted out, "Drizzt Do'Urden." He knew he had stumbled upon something good when Kirchoff told him, "Okay, write it up." "And that's where he was born, just like that," Salvatore said, adding that many readers assume the dark elf originated in one of the author's role-playing campaigns. Although the author has played fantasy role-playing games like the ADVANCED DUNGEONS & DRAGONS® game for more than 10 years, "I have to tell you, the game had very little influence on my writing," he said.
Selvarin 11-01-03, 06:07 AM	True, Tamsar. It's just that folks are trying to find some other way of explaining how he took down that balor. If he wasn't of high enough level then, it's reasoned, it had to be something more. The sword itself seems to have been consistently portrayed in terms of power, so it comes back to Drizzt's capabilities.
Crust 11-01-03, 09:36 AM	I think Breunor's 13 levels are fine. I DMed a dwarf fighter for a time, and he made it to 13th level before being dominated and turned into a vampire. He was tough as nails, and everything he hit either died or was quite near death. Breunor is fine. I don't know why anyone would assume Wulfgar has barbarian levels. He's never raged, and he's actually quite articulate when he wants to be. Fighter all the way. As for Drizzt, I like to look at the way the character stats moved from 2E to 3E. Most have kept their relative levels/hit dice with the conversion. Drizzt was a 16th level ranger in the Heroes Lorebook, and he has 16 levels still.... HOWEVER, one thing that was not taken into account was the 2E rules for dual-classing. As stated in the Menzoberanzan box set, Drizzt was an 18th level fighter when he left the Underdark. His training as a ranger started during the novel Sojourn, and from there his dual-classing canceled out his fighter class levels in 2E rules, thus, he trained up to 16 levels in ranger, and his fighter levels continued to be supressed due to those rediculous 2E rules that made no sense. Now, with 3E allowing level stacking, I don't understand why Drizzt isn't stated the way he should be: fighter18/ranger10/barbarian1 <--this does justice to Drizzt. Even if you read the novels from beginning to end you can't argue. If we're going by 3E rules, what level was Drizzt during his young years slaying drow in Menzo? 8th? 9th? I think not. Drizzt wouldn't have survived long in the Underdark as "The Hunter" with a few levels in fighter and a working level in barbarian. He was well into the teens as a fighter when he chose to leave Menzo, and his current statistics don't show that at all. If folks were smart, the next character representation of Drizzt do'Urden will resemble the above suggestion. Truly, if we take into account all the literature concerning the rogue drow, he is much, much more than a fighter10/ranger5/barbarian1... To say nothing of the ruination 3.5 makes Drizzt's obsolete FRCS 3.0 stats. Mistake after abysmal mistake... :rolleyes:
HoylePhoenix 11-01-03, 09:51 AM	Originally posted by Crust I think Breunor's 13 levels are fine. I DMed a dwarf fighter for a time, and he made it to 13th level before being dominated and turned into a vampire. He was tough as nails, and everything he hit either died or was quite near death. Breunor is fine. I don't know why anyone would assume Wulfgar has barbarian levels. He's never raged, and he's actually quite articulate when he wants to be. Fighter all the way. As for Drizzt, I like to look at the way the character stats moved from 2E to 3E. Most have kept their relative levels/hit dice with the conversion. Drizzt was a 16th level ranger in the Heroes Lorebook, and he has 16 levels still.... HOWEVER, one thing that was not taken into account was the 2E rules for dual-classing. As stated in the Menzoberanzan box set, Drizzt was an 18th level fighter when he left the Underdark. His training as a ranger started during the novel Sojourn, and from there his dual-classing canceled out his fighter class levels in 2E rules, thus, he trained up to 16 levels in ranger, and his fighter levels continued to be supressed due to those rediculous 2E rules that made no sense. Now, with 3E allowing level stacking, I don't understand why Drizzt isn't stated the way he should be: fighter18/ranger10/barbarian1 <--this does justice to Drizzt. Even if you read the novels from beginning to end you can't argue. If we're going by 3E rules, what level was Drizzt during his young years slaying drow in Menzo? 8th? 9th? I think not. Drizzt wouldn't have survived long in the Underdark as "The Hunter" with a few levels in fighter and a working level in barbarian. He was well into the teens as a fighter when he chose to leave Menzo, and his current statistics don't show that at all. If folks were smart, the next character representation of Drizzt do'Urden will resemble the above suggestion. Truly, if we take into account all the literature concerning the rogue drow, he is much, much more than a fighter10/ranger5/barbarian1... To say nothing of the ruination 3.5 makes Drizzt's obsolete FRCS 3.0 stats. Mistake after abysmal mistake... :rolleyes: Actually, I have read the novels from beginning to end (They sit on my shelf at the moment), and I can argue. :cool: Nothing Drizzt has done warrants even level 20 feats or abilities. The most amazing feats I can recall him achieving were his defeat of Ertuu(sp?) the first time, outwitting a vain red dragon, fighting his way (with help) out of Menzoberranzan(sp?), and holding his own against his father who had undergone zin-carla. And if you had read The Lone Drow, there are hints as to why he may have such good favor in everything he does and be as 'lucky' as he is. I think his levels are fairly accurate, though I'd personally put more levels in Fighter and Barbarian and way less in Ranger, something of Fighter12/Barbarian2/Ranger2; he really hasn't had much experience in being a Ranger. :ayyyy!:
Mirtek 11-01-03, 10:03 AM	Originally posted by Crust HOWEVER, one thing that was not taken into account was the 2E rules for dual-classing. As stated in the Menzoberanzan box set, Drizzt was an 18th level fighter when he left the Underdark. His training as a ranger started during the novel Sojourn, and from there his dual-classing canceled out his fighter class levels in 2E rules, thus, he trained up to 16 levels in ranger, and his fighter levels continued to be supressed due to those rediculous 2E rules that made no sense. AFAIK Drizz't didn't dual-class into a ranger. He simply switched his levels. In 2e the different classes all had their own XP table and the XP of an 18th level fighter were the same than the XP for an 16th level ranger and thus Drizzt simply switched his level. Of course, this was against the rules, but the famous NPCs often ignored/broke the rules in earlier editions. Anyway, these dual-classing rules wouldn't have applied to Drizzt since they were only for humans switching classes. Demihumans, like drow, had an entirely different ruleset of their own
Selvarin 11-01-03, 02:24 PM	If we had to start with the assertion that Drizzt was an 18th level fighter initially (and I'd rather not), the best one could say is that he became a Brb 1/Ftr 18/Rgr 3 (or perhaps even 2/18/2). From what I've seen, he's never cast a ranger spell, and (now) in 3.5 that's the lowest a ranger can be before gaining spell access. Of course, as was pointed out, Drizzt was able to do a lot of things class-wise that weren't allowed in 1E/2E. It's unaoidable, though, that much of his prowess will get lost in the translation.
Desies 11-01-03, 02:36 PM	what it comes down to is this. The things that are done in the novels cannot I REPEAT CANNOT be translated into game terms. In novels the writer can make the heroes capable of things that no character, period, could do. That's just how it works, you don't want to read about a bunch of level one schmucks running around afraid of a goblin ambush. Furthermore no one was DMing the novels so naturally the rules don't apply. Due to the love of these characters and their influence on the realms they have been translated into game terms just so that if the party does encounter them you don't have to build them yourself. And if you have a problem with their stats just make your own.
Darius the Barbarian 11-03-03, 03:08 AM	It's correct that Drizzt switched his class in 2E but he did retain some Ftr abilities, Weapon Specialization comes to mind. The problem is that no matter what solution we come up with, it won't be perfect. That's why I always repeat that if you want to improve an NPC, do it according to your needs and your own campaign. It's the only reasonable thing we can do, IMO. Nothing is clear, nothing is absolute here. A few problematic points: -> Drizzt in 2E had a unique combat style (Menzoberranzan boxed set) that allowed him: a) backstab damage x5, b) instant kill chance, c) double damage chance. Those special qualities are not really possible to recreate using 3E mechanics. I don't think we should break the rules and add like 10d6 SA dmg to Drizzt's abilities... -> like someone stated, nothing in the novels warrants epic abilities displayed by Drizzt. Balors were much weaker in the 1st Edition and the question is whether we really insist on making Drizzt able to defeat the 3E CR20 Balor; -> some item properties are not compatible with previous versions - Frost Brands are not capable of dousing Balor's body flames in 3E, for instance; -> strictly mechanically, we could give Drizzt 24 levels (Ftr18 - training with Zak, Bbn1 - Underdark, Rgr5 - surface adventures) or even around 27-29 levels, since Drizzt was able to cast spells in 2E which are now accessible to Rangers of 8th or higher level... As you can see, it's not easy to convert a character in accordance with AD&D core rules, special rules AND the contents of novels featuring this character. It's all relative anyway - an epic character doesn't flee from five frost giants but if they also have 5+ character (e.g. Ftr) levels each, it's a bit different :) That's why I made my own Drizzt for my campaign and I think it works great - considering power and abilities, I placed him exactly where he should be, IMHO. I suggest you do the same, folks, for there is no universal solution in this case ;)
Selvarin 11-03-03, 03:50 AM	Quite true, Darius. The one thing that puzzles me about the official Drizzt, though, is that he doesn't have Improved Critical (scimitar). Oh well, since Ambidexterity doesn't exist anymore, it shouldn't be hard to fit in. If he were revised (with official levels kept) it might look more like this: Drizzt Do’Urden Male drow Ftr 10/Bbn 1/Rgr 5; CR 17; Medium-size humanoid (elf); HD 10d10 +20 plus 1d12 + 2 plus 5d8 +10; HP 119; Feats: Blind-Fight, Combat Expertise, Combat Reflexes, Dodge, Endurance (ranger bonus feat), Improved Critical (scimitar), Improved Initiative, Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, Mobility, Quick Draw, Tracking (ranger bonus feat), Twin Sword Style, Two-Weapon Fighting (ranger bonus feat), Weapon Focus (scimitar), Weapon Specialization (scimitar) Combat Expertise better addresses his defensive capabilities, likewise Improved Critical better reflects his lethality. (Not the same as the instant kill he had in 1E/2E, but hey, can't have it all. *shrug*) So much for that.
Crust 11-03-03, 08:57 AM	One could argue that Drizzt uses dire charge on a number of occasions in his battles with orcs in The Lone Drow. There are other times when Drizzt's skills lend themselves toward a few unassuming epic feats.
HoylePhoenix 11-03-03, 01:47 PM	Originally posted by Darius the Barbarian It's correct that Drizzt switched his class in 2E but he did retain some Ftr abilities, Weapon Specialization comes to mind. The problem is that no matter what solution we come up with, it won't be perfect. That's why I always repeat that if you want to improve an NPC, do it according to your needs and your own campaign. It's the only reasonable thing we can do, IMO. Nothing is clear, nothing is absolute here. A few problematic points: -> Drizzt in 2E had a unique combat style (Menzoberranzan boxed set) that allowed him: a) backstab damage x5, b) instant kill chance, c) double damage chance. Those special qualities are not really possible to recreate using 3E mechanics. I don't think we should break the rules and add like 10d6 SA dmg to Drizzt's abilities... -> like someone stated, nothing in the novels warrants epic abilities displayed by Drizzt. Balors were much weaker in the 1st Edition and the question is whether we really insist on making Drizzt able to defeat the 3E CR20 Balor; -> some item properties are not compatible with previous versions - Frost Brands are not capable of dousing Balor's body flames in 3E, for instance; -> strictly mechanically, we could give Drizzt 24 levels (Ftr18 - training with Zak, Bbn1 - Underdark, Rgr5 - surface adventures) or even around 27-29 levels, since Drizzt was able to cast spells in 2E which are now accessible to Rangers of 8th or higher level... As you can see, it's not easy to convert a character in accordance with AD&D core rules, special rules AND the contents of novels featuring this character. It's all relative anyway - an epic character doesn't flee from five frost giants but if they also have 5+ character (e.g. Ftr) levels each, it's a bit different :) That's why I made my own Drizzt for my campaign and I think it works great - considering power and abilities, I placed him exactly where he should be, IMHO. I suggest you do the same, folks, for there is no universal solution in this case ;) This is probably the best reason why his levels are the way they are and why he could take on a Balor, etc. He had all kinds of extras that weren't class related during 2nd Edition, his special abilities and what have you. Now in defense of those who want him to be Epic, this very example could also be excuse enough to make him epic so that he could retain similar special perks in 3rd Edition, especially now that we have the Epic Level Handbook. It all falls down to personal taste, and while I prefer him non-epic, I wouldn't be upset or neccessarily against him being epic.