| Post/Author/DateTime | Post |
|---|---|
| Flecha09-29-07, 07:13 AM | Ok, I've seen this topic to have arised here and there in several threads for the last days. Logical, provided we've been menaced with severe changes in our beloved Realms. The thing is, I can bear a "Dark Ages" with the "Points of Light" approach to the setting, that'd be kind of fun. But the inclusion of warforged and other kinds of magical machinery would be contrary to the look and feel of the setting. It wouldn't be the realms anymore, it's a different philosophy, a different physics, and even a different metaphysics. I never understood or liked the "medieval" fantasy settings with magical (or non-magical, steampunk-like) machinery, not Eberron nor those which preceded it; remember, WotC weren't the first ones to do it. The FR approach is (thanks the gods) a more classical one, and it's perfect, and it's beautiful, thank you very much. But to the point, is this just a dread, a rumor, or has WotC pointed comments in that direction? Because if the Realms are getting into it, prepare another classical setting for me to play and spend my bucks, lest I do it somewhere else. All the people in this forums who say they're not spending more money in WotC products, hell, they keep reading this forums in search of hope, because they'd love to keep buying WotC products. Maybe WotC should be a little less worried about tricking new customers into the game, and much more worried about keeping the loyal ones before they leave. They claim to read us in the forums. Ok, take note of this, WotC. |
| The Ubbergeek09-29-07, 06:34 PM | Eberron have very traditional fantasy areas, btw. And no, it will never be Eberron. FR is FR. But I dislike this fearfull tone.... 'Tricking new players'? You should realise that ALL RPG, not just D&D, face a serious issue in the future, with a drought in new blood... A fact not helped with the way newcommers are greated (the very grognard cold shrug and alll) and the competition from 'easier' hobbies like videogames. WOTC should actually care about bringing new commers, not just please the current ones. (and to be technical, light magic machines always exitsed in FR.) |
| johnkretzer09-29-07, 06:56 PM | Eberron have very traditional fantasy areas, btw. And no, it will never be Eberron. FR is FR. But I dislike this fearfull tone.... 'Tricking new players'? You should realise that ALL RPG, not just D&D, face a serious issue in the future, with a drought in new blood... A fact not helped with the way newcommers are greated (the very grognard cold shrug and alll) and the competition from 'easier' hobbies like videogames. WOTC should actually care about bringing new commers, not just please the current ones. (and to be technical, light magic machines always exitsed in FR.) I am going to guess that you have had very bad experience with older players in the past...or either that or you have a belief that older people don't have a place in things...I remember those feeling when I was younger to so I'll forgive you of it. But I have to got to say I have different experiences with new players joining a old group where the 'new blood' was welcome. As a matter of fact that has always been the way new players come to D&D. Now they are changing such it in such a way they are forcing most of us old timers out for the new blood. I remember a time there wasn't a generation gap in D&D now there is going to be one. |
| Flecha09-29-07, 08:14 PM | But I dislike this fearfull tone.... 'Tricking new players'? No, no, no, if you read again my post, you'll see I said "tricking new customers" instead of "tricking new players", and I did it very much on purpose. I know we need new blood, young blood indeed, I'm always telling that to everybody involved with rpgs. I just wanted to note that WotC see customers, when, as you and me, and all of us would want them to see everyone as players, indeed. :) |
| Xaean09-29-07, 08:34 PM | There are already Golems, Helmed Horrors and Gondsmen on Faerun, what's so wrong about warforged? Of course they should be rarer than on Faerun than on Eberron, maybe a new invention of a Halruaan Elder. And about artificers: There are many races and cultures on good old Faerun that love magic weapons but hate spellcasters. There are also more magic items on Faerun than spellcasters capable of producing such items. So where do these items come from? Artificers can be specialized dwarven crafters or the can be Vremionni from Rashemen, but they have a place on Faerun. And, yes, I also agree that we need some new blood. I have some very few new players. A problem might be that roleplaying is difficult to explain to people outside the community. Many existing groups can't - and I have to admit this includes the groups I currently DM - or don't want to support new players, especially young players. Introducing new players is a difficult job - and somehow nobody really wants to do it. |
| GothicDan09-29-07, 08:45 PM | I still do not think Artificers have a proper place in Faerun proper, as established. The Vremyonni are not Artificers - they are all immensely powerful male Wizards (traditionally), who happen to specialize in magic item creation AND the research of new spells. Dwarven Artificers? MAYBE, among the Gold Dwarves, but they already have actual wizards in published canon, too. I'm ever so much less lenient about new classes than races. |
| Flecha09-29-07, 08:51 PM | There are already Golems, Helmed Horrors and Gondsmen on Faerun, what's so wrong about warforged? Nothing, they're great, but in Eberron; they define that world's "character". The Realms "character" is a different one, it's a world created many years ago and is more "classical" medieval fantasy. Golems, "animated plate armors" and such are fine because are tradicional in historical mythologies. But warforged come from modern fantasy views, so to speak. And, yes, I also agree that we need some new blood. I have some very few new players. A problem might be that roleplaying is difficult to explain to people outside the community. Many existing groups can't - and I have to admit this includes the groups I currently DM - or don't want to support new players, especially young players. Introducing new players is a difficult job - and somehow nobody really wants to do it. Yes, I've been worries for years with this and want to look for some solutions. The biggest problem I find right now is that teens prefer playing videogames, because they find them "better" to rpgs- what we now it's silly. But, it's difficult to take them away of those dreaded consoles; they are like the pied piper of Hamelin. |
| johnkretzer09-29-07, 10:12 PM | I still do not think Artificers have a proper place in Faerun proper, as established. The Vremyonni are not Artificers - they are all immensely powerful male Wizards (traditionally), who happen to specialize in magic item creation AND the research of new spells. Dwarven Artificers? MAYBE, among the Gold Dwarves, but they already have actual wizards in published canon, too. I'm ever so much less lenient about new classes than races. I disagree...I think artificers could fit very well in the FR in certain areas. It really isn't that much different then the say the gnome artificer in the MoF. It is just better done. Also it really isn't defined as strongly as a Eberron class. I don't think the Realms would suffer from it's inclusion into the setting( it can be fit in by saying it has always been around it is that generic). Would it benefit? I think it can be dependsing on how it is dealt by the DM and PCs but that is true with anything. As for warforged in the Realms...I don't see the issue, there are numerous examples of intelligent constructs in Realm's lore or just D&D in general ( Nimblewrights anyone?). This one though has to be done with care and repainted so it does fit in the Realms. |
| GothicDan09-29-07, 10:16 PM | The Gnomes might work, actually. But I do NOT like the idea of the Vremyonni being statted as such. I am vehemently, always against the idea. Also: Yes, they're turning it into Eberron. |
| Flecha09-29-07, 10:25 PM | Yes, I knew it. Damn, that's sad and stupid. :rant: |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin09-29-07, 10:53 PM | All the people in this forums who say they're not spending more money in WotC products, hell, they keep reading this forums in search of hope, because they'd love to keep buying WotC products. That's true--I'd love to keep buying Realms products, so long as the official version of the Realms continues to entertain me. I doubt it will for much longer. However, I'd like to point out that the main reason I post at this forum (and at Candlekeep.com) is because I am a fan of the setting and I just like talking about it. Whatever happens with the official Realms, I'll always love the (true) version of it in my head. |
| Mula09-30-07, 12:35 AM | Long before Eberron, I always thought Faerūn had a strong steampunk element in it. Probably came from the Baldur's Gate games. FR is the setting with guns, not Eberron. (And the Realms had airships first too - check your cover of the Shining South...) |
| GothicDan09-30-07, 12:44 AM | Notice that the term steampunk was corrected to dungeonpunk. |
| MarkusTay6309-30-07, 02:40 AM | But Eberron's got the Choo-choo, thats why people think it's steampunk. ;) Also, the 'undercity' in Sharn is very reminiscent of a 'Jules Vernian' style set-up, with morlock-like dwellers taking care of all the 'things' that keep the city above functioning. At least, thats the impression I got when I read Sharn. The definition of Fantasy has evolved since Tolkien's time. Remember, the D&D magic system is based on the one in Jack Vance's novels - Sci-Fi novels. It is more closely related to psionics with its imprinted 'spell matrixes' then mana-related magic, and D&D has also had psionics - a Sci-Fi concept - since the beginning. ;) Greyhawk had a speaceship, complete with robots and control consoles. Planescape's got Modrons... The Sci-fi is already there, and always has been. Steampunk, or 'Dungeonpunk', is just the latest name for a genre whose lines were always blurred. |
| BadCatMan09-30-07, 02:57 AM | The genres of SF and Fantasy were blurred and entwined since the beginning. It's only in the last couple of decades that they were seen to be separate and clearly defined. Once upon a time, barbarians like Conan would encounter aliens, astronauts would crash-land of worlds of dragons and magic, creatures from other dimensions were Lovecraftian horrors. It was all freely mixing. Now we have Mind Flayers, and the planes and Vancian spellcasting. |
| Flecha09-30-07, 06:36 AM | Yes, and it is much more fun. But back them, the SF elements (and, we can say, the Steampunk ones) are found in extraordinary occasions, remote "regions" and so. They are exotic and full of adventure. That's how are showed in FR. In Eberron are more omnipresent, replacing "steampunk" with "magicpunk", so to speak (good lord, another newly minted term no, please!), and it's great for that setting. But forcing it in FR is changing the setting. An impotant "metaphysic" that strongly differenciates FR from Eberron is, I believe, that in FR constructs are never characters, while in Eberron Warforged are. And that's a reflection of how each setting is. And again, Steampunk and Dungeonpunk are not the same thing, despite their names. Dungeonpunk refers to the "nasty" and "dirty" looks of D&D D20, much diferent from that beautiful medieval fantasy of 1st and 2nd editions. Almost that's my taste. |
| MarkusTay6309-30-07, 01:25 PM | I get the impression that Steampunk is technology based - sort of the Industrial Revolution taken to it's Jules Vernian extreme. Whereas dungeonpunk is what you call Magicpunk. However, you may be right - Dungeonpunk could very well be applied to just a certain look, whereas Magicpunk is Steampunk with magic-powered tech (magi-tech). That would mean the original Steampunk game, Shadowrun, would now be considered part of the Magicpunk genre. A game set in the same era that used psionics instead of magic would be considered 'Cyberpunk'. My heads starting to hurt now... can't we just call it all 'Fantasy' again? |
| GothicDan09-30-07, 02:44 PM | No! |
| MarkusTay6309-30-07, 02:59 PM | You physicists and your an@l need to quantify everything! :rolleyes: :P ;) |
| GothicDan09-30-07, 03:04 PM | It makes communicating easier, for people willing to learn it. :p |
| SgtAnjay09-30-07, 06:26 PM | Bah. Thats one reason I was a fan of Leira....there is such a thing as too much truth |
| Fabius Maximus10-01-07, 08:35 AM | It will not change into Eberron. Imagine how the EB-fans will cry out in terror it that happens. ;) |
| Rauric10-01-07, 09:16 AM | Yes, I knew it. Damn, that's sad and stupid. :rant: I hope your not serious about this answer. One forum guy says "Yes, they are turning it into Eberron." and you believe it? Maybe in his opinion it is being turned into that game. You will find some people on the forums and the internet have one point of view and it never changes. Like Ubbergeek and John. John posts something then Geek uses the "find all posts by this poster" button then comments on the thread. John probably does it to Geek also. It's pretty funny. Anyway I have played and ran both games and even with the changes FR cannot be Eberron. The only way I would want FR to be more like EB is with how it treats gods. I want them to be more like gods and less like high level, uber NPCS. Maybe in the new edition AO will show up and say, "Remember what I said about taking a greater part in your followers lives? Well try not to meddle so much in the world anymore, k?" ;) EB is can be several things. The one concept that is different than FR is that the Five ruling nations just declared peace with each other and are at the start of a Cold War of sorts. You need paperwork to pass between borders and there is a real air of distrust between some nations. I hope that FR does not include Warforged or anything else techno related into its setting. Points of Light has been used in FR for years. There are many border areas that have this feel. You should read some of the old Volo books and see Ed's and the other 2E writers descriptions of some areas in the North ect. Thse places were just made for the PCs to come in and explore and or save. To John and Geek, sorry if my comment up above bugs you. Every time I see one of you post it seems the other one is sure to follow, and usually it is just right after the other has posted. I agree a little with Geek in some ways and a little with John also. If they move FR to 10 years with the changes I have read I will be ok, if they use RAS' 100 year concept I will be less than happy. I hope that is an alternate reality or a "possible future" deal going on there. If not, oi vey! :weep: |
| Flecha10-01-07, 11:47 AM | Well, I'm half serious, half joking. ;) I agree with you the Gods and high level NPCs treated like in EB would be a good change. But only that. Stop there. Unfortunately, it's likely the changes and similarities will go much further. Included Warforged and other techno-thingies that you , as I, as everyone here hope won't be included. And that's the correct word, *hope*, because we already *dread* it. By the way, you mention 2nd edition books where I think the real meat and fun of the Realms were. Now, I'd wish to have those times back... :) |
| Fabius Maximus10-01-07, 12:30 PM | Well, I'm half serious, half joking. ;) I agree with you the Gods and high level NPCs treated like in EB would be a good change. But only that. Stop there. Unfortunately, it's likely the changes and similarities will go much further. Included Warforged and other techno-thingies that you , as I, as everyone here hope won't be included. And that's the correct word, *hope*, because we already *dread* it. By the way, you mention 2nd edition books where I think the real meat and fun of the Realms were. Now, I'd wish to have those times back... :) I still don't know what the fuss with the Warforged is about. It seems that their existence (if at all) is reserved to a very remote area. You can just ignore them. |
| Rauric10-01-07, 12:52 PM | Well, I'm half serious, half joking. ;) I agree with you the Gods and high level NPCs treated like in EB would be a good change. But only that. Stop there. Unfortunately, it's likely the changes and similarities will go much further. Included Warforged and other techno-thingies that you , as I, as everyone here hope won't be included. And that's the correct word, *hope*, because we already *dread* it. By the way, you mention 2nd edition books where I think the real meat and fun of the Realms were. Now, I'd wish to have those times back... :) I reread some of the 2E stuff and some of it is still great some of it is not so hot. I would have liked the initial 3E FR stuff to have been fluffier though. |
| The_Shaman10-01-07, 05:50 PM | It will take a lot more than a few warforged to turn FR into Eberron... but I still can't say I'm happy with a lot of recent changes. I hated how they unveiled Deep Imaskar only to bury it at the first available chance, for example, and I'm not happy about quite a few other things detailed in GHotR. My worries, however, are that FR will lose much of what makes it unique - from typical deities through creatures through the system of magic. Eberron, afaik, does not have that risk - and for the sake of Eberron fans, I hope it never will. |
| Kid SixXx10-02-07, 06:31 PM | It will not change into Eberron. Imagine how the EB-fans will cry out in terror it that happens. ;) I would feel the need to break something. Probably the lamp on my endtable. And for once I agree with Gothic Dan. The jack-of-all-trades Artificer and the mage artisans of the Vremyonni are two different things entirely. Vremyonni being what they are has everything to do with Rashemi societal issues concerning male arcane spellcasters and little to do with the crafting of magical items itself. In Eberron are more omnipresent, replacing "steampunk" with "magicpunk", so to speak (good lord, another newly minted term no, please!), and it's great for that setting. But forcing it in FR is changing the setting. You do realize that FR has had an optional ruleset for firearms small and great (Thayan Bombards, anyone?) for a long time & has had airships in it (Halruaa, anyone?) long before Eberron was even a setting contest entry. Those elements have been in the FR for a while now, albeit not a part of the early vision IIRC. I don't see how you come up with the notion that FR is becoming Eberron just because magitech favors heavily into the Eberron campaign and you're just now taking note of the tech of Faerun. |
| Dark Wizard10-02-07, 11:13 PM | I actually think there is a lot the FR designers can learn from the Eberron team. For Eberron seem far more comfortable bending the rules to match the setting, including implementing entire optional rules systems that they feel helps promote the atmosphere of the setting. In the area of setting theme and atmosphere, Eberron goes out of its way to explain the intended feel. The designers of Eberron also acknowledged the dangers and difficulties of moving the setting forward just two years. That's two years further separated from the Last War, a lot can change, but it seems the designers promised to maintain the tension if not increase it slightly. They even said they hope to use the two year jump to show us more of Eberron rather than change it outright. All the FR designers seem to do is report flatly that X, Y, and Z are changing, getting destroyed, or removed from the setting entirely. Then they tell us they know the fans will not be happy as if just their knowledge of our disappointment was consolation in itself. I want to give them the benefit of the doubt, maybe they're busy or under a lot of pressure, but their near disregard for the fans in all the things they do and say does not make me feel welcomed in the new Realms, whether or not I like the changes. If the Realms becoming more like Eberron gives us a change in designer attitude, so they will show they are more invested in the Realms than they are now I'm all for it. Warforged and Lightning Rails would be a small price to pay. One of the main reasons why I feel the designers are disconnected with the Realms is that I see a lot of designers blogging about their games, some are homebrew, some are Eberron. I haven't been able to find any blog posts on designers running Realms games. Now I'm not saying the designers hate the Realms or are not knowledgeable about the setting, but occasionally they should demonstrate their investment in it beyond just hinting at the marketing/business strategy to get the most sales. Personally I've noticed a sense of excitement about Eberron and even Paizo's new Pathfinder setting due to designer discussions with the fans. That is the same sort of feeling I see on Candlekeep, but here the outlook is generally dismal. I'm not asking the designers to be our friends, but at least don't seem robotic. |
| capnvan10-03-07, 06:56 AM | Wow, somebody's been eating their Wheaties. Two in a row. My only concern is that after so many discordant alterations by various novelists and designers, is there a coherent way to explain the intended feel? And do they have a coherent feel that they intend to produce? |
| GothicDan10-03-07, 09:25 AM | I'll again iterate that I see little wrong in Eberron in and of itself, and with the way FR is currently going, I think I'll end up liking it more than I would the new Realms. And Kid SixXx, we agree more often then myself and other posters on this forum do - Mr. Miscellany and Ubbergeek to name two, off the top of my head... |
| Alediran10-03-07, 11:12 AM | I'll again iterate that I see little wrong in Eberron in and of itself, and with the way FR is currently going, I think I'll end up liking it more than I would the new Realms. I also got this feeling right after reading Keith's comments on 4th ed Eberron. After I finish my 3.5ed Realms Campaign (that has at least a year and half more of playing time) I could probably start reading the Eberron books. But as a true fan of the realms, I'll change what I think it's illogical (for example the low lvl of the setting and magic, I'll import many organizations from the realms, change their names, etc.) |
| Bluenose10-03-07, 11:39 AM | I also got this feeling right after reading Keith's comments on 4th ed Eberron. After I finish my 3.5ed Realms Campaign (that has at least a year and half more of playing time) I could probably start reading the Eberron books. But as a true fan of the realms, I'll change what I think it's illogical (for example the low lvl of the setting and magic, I'll import many organizations from the realms, change their names, etc.) I really think that there's an exaggerated idea about the low level of NPCs in Eberron around. There are a fairly sizeable number who approach epic levels - Oalian would probably qualify to take epic feats as a Treant Druid 20, if the stats actually mattered that much. And there are others such as Vol, Mordain, the leaders of the Dreaming Dark and such who have similar levels, even before you start getting involved with dragons, ancient giants, and Rakshasa Rajahs. |
| Alediran10-03-07, 11:52 AM | Yes, but how many mortals (playable races), compared to the total population of Eberron are High level? |
| Markustay10-03-07, 02:13 PM | But we like our 20th level Innkeepers with feats in Multiserve and Craft Brew, not to mention Bilk Customers. ;) I hear the WotC people have quite a few employees with that last feat, as well. :rolleyes: |
| Fabius Maximus10-03-07, 08:15 PM | There are quite a few high-level npcs in Eberron. It's just that most of them do actually have levels in npc-classes. I just remember the 18th level elven magewright in Sharn... |
| SgtAnjay10-03-07, 09:06 PM | There are quite a few high-level npcs in Eberron. It's just that most of them do actually have levels in npc-classes. I just remember the 18th level elven magewright in Sharn... Now now....if Eberroners get to exagerate how many high levels NPCs there are in the FR, Realmsers get to call Eberron's highest level NPC a lvl 5 Aristrocrat/lvl 5 Expert. Its only fair. :) |
| Dark Wizard10-03-07, 09:44 PM | Now now....if Eberroners get to exagerate how many high levels NPCs there are in the FR, Realmsers get to call Eberron's highest level NPC a lvl 5 Aristrocrat/lvl 5 Expert. Its only fair. :) At something like CR 9, that's still much too high. ;) Do you know why Eberron needs so many novice heroes? They need people to fill regular "adventure" jobs like heavy lifting at the docks, scribing tax reports and basket weaving. Eberron resurrected the idea of the Level 0 character, who are as helpless as newborn babies. I jest of course. The NPC class concept is a good one if used. Even though the DMG already had the NPC classes when the Realms were updated to 3e, it took Eberron's designers to actually use them widely. If FR used them more often for the local sage or guard captain, the majority of the high-level NPC problems would go away. It's all about presentation and not big flashy changes like the Realms designers think. |
| Puggins10-05-07, 12:57 AM | Eberron is not a low-level setting, nor are all the NPCs all that low a level. The most key concept in Eberron is that of the PC mover and shaker. Whereas the Realms has (had?) several 25+ level wizards trying to maintain order and multiple orders of epic characters trying to make sure the Realms stay safe, Eberron is based on the assumption that the characters- and pretty much only the characters- are the thin line between civilization and ruin. So no, you won't find any mages of 12th+ level in Sharn- most of them died in the Great War- but don't think that there aren't NPCs that are epic. Just take a quick look a Keith Baker's description of the Demon Rajahs who are imprisoned deep in Khyber and you'll shake that notion loose. Each Rajah is a veritable slumbering God (40+ character levels + the equivalent of a couple divine ranks), awaiting a chance to awaken and engulf Khorvaire in ruin. Or check out the Daelkyr, the mad creators who also slumber. There are plenty of epic NPCs in Eberron- it's just that not many of them are very friendly :) |
| SgtAnjay10-05-07, 01:44 AM | Eberron is not a low-level setting, nor are all the NPCs all that low a level.And the Forgotten Realms setting isn't all about watching the 7 Sisters sweep all evils from the land. Thats a knife that cuts both ways, if you wanna start that game. The most key concept in Eberron is that of the PC mover and shaker. Whereas the Realms has (had?) several 25+ level wizards trying to maintain order and multiple orders of epic characters trying to make sure the Realms stay safe, Eberron is based on the assumption that the characters- and pretty much only the characters- are the thin line between civilization and ruin.How very nice for Eberron that its PCs somehow manage to exist in a tabula rasa. If thats what you're into, thats very cool. Not everyone's into that. The Forgotten Realms has millenia of history with adventurers rising to the challenges of its hordes of villains, great and small. Hence the world still being around despite the many evils that threaten it. Hmm....what happens to adventurers who are succesful? Oh yeah, they level up and earn powers and abilities. The NPCs are examples of what adventurers can attain as long as they, you know, earn it with heroic deeds first. Want to be the hero of Cormyr? Go out there and start reclaiming the Stonelands. Crush the ogre armies and be the Amnian Elminster. Earn the adoration of the God-King of Mulhorand by leading crusades into Chessenta or reclaiming ancient deific items from Untheric ruins. There are plenty of epic NPCs in Eberron- it's just that not many of them are very friendly :) Not very friendly? You mean like the City of Shade? The Church of Bane? The Zhentarim? Or maybe the Church of Cyric? The Church of Shar? The Church of Set? The Church of...well....Tiamat's two representatives leading city-states? The Twisted Rune? The undead Netherese archwizards still about and their cabals? The Night King of Westgate? Any number of groups of Red Wizards? Forces from Dambrath? The phaerimm? The malaugrym? The Fey'ri? Thats a tiny sample. The list would be as epic as the threats, and many (most?) lead operations that can be easily stumbled upon and handled by your good ol' group of 1st lvls. There are many distinct aspects of the Realms, by virtue of the depth the setting has (and hopefully will retain as time moves forward). But if what you want is what Eberron has.....well, then you can play in Eberron. That doesn't mean there's something wrong with the Realms. |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin10-05-07, 02:36 PM | Indeed, the epic level characters trying to keep the Realms safe are countered by equally powerful evil character trying to run roughshod over them. Like it or not, the Realms is not a setting where goodness is all-powerful. |
| GothicDan10-05-07, 02:48 PM | So no, you won't find any mages of 12th+ level in Sharn- most of them died in the Great War- but don't think that there aren't NPCs that are epic. This is my biggest contention with the setting, from a realistic point of view. In war, the 'death toll' is usually lowest among the academics. As a Physicst (which I maintain is still the closest analogy to the wizard), I'd be more interested in preserving my science, experiments, and what not, then throwing my life away in a war. Now, there are some (maybe a lot!) of 'patriotic' Wizards AND Physicists, sure. But to assume that the vast, vast majority (99%) all did such things (rather than, say, skipping planes, going into hiding, temporal stasis, etc.), such that the current NPC level of Eberron is as it is, just seems... Wrong. The thought of dozens of high to Epic level archmages throwing their lives away in a simple mortal war is really idiotic to me - which is why I would prefer FR in that regard. The 'Cold War' of the archmages in power really feels more modern, politically speaking, then a bunch of blaster-mages throwing Meteor Swarms at each other. Even if I've made some hyperbole above, and even if I do think that FR's levels ARE a little inflated, my opinion still stands: Eberron is just as bad, on the other side of the scale, with little TRULY realistic (no, saying 'They all died in the war' is not realism) reasoning behind it. But, that's really my ONLY major gripe with the setting, which is a lot LESS than the griping I do with the current state of the Realms, and what they will become. |
| Markustay10-05-07, 02:48 PM | It's probably not just FR and Eb that will be effected, it's the brave new world of - Mystara's Dark Grey Planes-Jammers of Forgotton Eberron's Raven-Lances. Welcome to 4e's 'generic universe'. ;) |
| Mula10-05-07, 03:43 PM | I don't think that the designers of Eberron have ever officially stated that there used to be a lot of high level mages and other characters that died in the Last War. Eberron just takes a different approach to NPCs, PCs, and character levels. I've always found the setting more cinematic in the sense that the players and only a select few NPCs can achieve the level of power that can shake and change the world around them. In Eberron - to use a common example - a war veteran could still be a 2nd-level warrior simply because he isn't MEANT to be more powerful. The PCs, however, are destined to do great stuff, which is represented by gaining levels. I really dig this approach and plan to incorporate it into my FR game. |
| Puggins10-05-07, 05:39 PM | And the Forgotten Realms setting isn't all about watching the 7 Sisters sweep all evils from the land. Thats a knife that cuts both ways, if you wanna start that game. How very nice for Eberron that its PCs somehow manage to exist in a tabula rasa. If thats what you're into, thats very cool. Not everyone's into that. Whoah, Mr. Crankypants! What exactly in my post made you think that it was an assault on the Realms? For reference, I own every single 3.5 Forgotten Realms book in existence. I'm a big fan of the realms and I have no issues in setting my campaign there. Meanwhile, I still don't own a couple of the Eberron sourcebooks. I can't say at this point that I prefer one over the other because I haven't played in an Eberron campaign. But I have played in a Realms campaign, and I know I liked it. So relax, I'm a big fan of the Realms. Sheesh.... Anyway, I was trying to vocalize one of the core philosophies in Eberron that the Realms doesn't (usually) share. Of Course The heroes will be the main protagonists, and they'll be the ones who stood up and defeated the vile dastardly villain. The difference is that in the realms, they'll take their place alongside Elminster (or maybe not that high- that's up to the DM), while in Eberron, they're carving new territory. The Forgotten Realms has millenia of history with adventurers rising to the challenges of its hordes of villains, great and small. Hence the world still being around despite the many evils that threaten it. Hmm....what happens to adventurers who are succesful? Oh yeah, they level up and earn powers and abilities. The NPCs are examples of what adventurers can attain as long as they, you know, earn it with heroic deeds first. Want to be the hero of Cormyr? Go out there and start reclaiming the Stonelands. Crush the ogre armies and be the Amnian Elminster. Earn the adoration of the God-King of Mulhorand by leading crusades into Chessenta or reclaiming ancient deific items from Untheric ruins. Amen. Not very friendly? You mean like the City of Shade? The Church of Bane? The Zhentarim? Or maybe the Church of Cyric? The Church of Shar? The Church of Set? The Church of...well....Tiamat's two representatives leading city-states? The Twisted Rune? The undead Netherese archwizards still about and their cabals? The Night King of Westgate? Any number of groups of Red Wizards? Forces from Dambrath? The phaerimm? The malaugrym? The Fey'ri? Thats a tiny sample. The list would be as epic as the threats, and many (most?) lead operations that can be easily stumbled upon and handled by your good ol' group of 1st lvls. I know these things exist in the Realms. Anyone who has even taken a glance through a Realms book knows they exist. I was just mentioning that Eberron had them too because plenty of people haven't really taken a look at Eberron and base their opinions of the setting on fallacious statements spat out by a bunch of detractors. There are many distinct aspects of the Realms, by virtue of the depth the setting has (and hopefully will retain as time moves forward). But if what you want is what Eberron has.....well, then you can play in Eberron. That doesn't mean there's something wrong with the Realms. My goodness, that's one heck of a chip on that shoulder. I agree, there's nothing wrong with the Realms. There's nothing wrong with Eberron either, and its potential depth is just as impressive as the Realms. |
| GothicDan10-05-07, 06:49 PM | I don't think that the designers of Eberron have ever officially stated that there used to be a lot of high level mages and other characters that died in the Last War. Eberron just takes a different approach to NPCs, PCs, and character levels. I've always found the setting more cinematic in the sense that the players and only a select few NPCs can achieve the level of power that can shake and change the world around them. In Eberron - to use a common example - a war veteran could still be a 2nd-level warrior simply because he isn't MEANT to be more powerful. The PCs, however, are destined to do great stuff, which is represented by gaining levels. I really dig this approach and plan to incorporate it into my FR game. This is great, if you don't mind things being artificially contrived. Please, do NOT take this as a statement of my hatred for Eberron. But, just like I dislike many things that happened in the Realms (ToT, Spellplague, Crusade, etc.), I dislike this. In fact, I probably could learn to love Eberron. I'd just ramp up levels a bit, and damn anyone who tells me I'm missing out on some theme. :) I continue to lurk on the Eberron boards. There's some genuinely good stuff there - I'd just rip out a lot of the 3E methodology behind it. NPCs will gain levels just like PCs, because it's moronic to assume that just because a player's playing a character, that he/she should be treated any differently. That smacks of self-aggrandizing egoism even too great for MY pedantic tastes. |
| johnkretzer10-05-07, 09:15 PM | This is my biggest contention with the setting, from a realistic point of view. In war, the 'death toll' is usually lowest among the academics. As a Physicst (which I maintain is still the closest analogy to the wizard), I'd be more interested in preserving my science, experiments, and what not, then throwing my life away in a war. Now, there are some (maybe a lot!) of 'patriotic' Wizards AND Physicists, sure. But to assume that the vast, vast majority (99%) all did such things (rather than, say, skipping planes, going into hiding, temporal stasis, etc.), such that the current NPC level of Eberron is as it is, just seems... Wrong. There is nothing in Eberron that say these wizards don't exist. They just for the most remain in the background. For instance I run Eberron with the fact these wizards of high level exist but they usualy remain hidden because they don't want to be bothewred by random things. Also there is a slight difference between a physicist and a wizard. A physicists can remain in the background and if recruited would remain in a research facility and research new WMDs. A wizard on the other hand would have to for the most part have to expose themselves to danger to have a effect. Though like I pointed out above there are wizards in my Eberron that was used more in the research facility...and still are. I can't wait till the PCs are high enough level to go to the Karnath one. The thought of dozens of high to Epic level archmages throwing their lives away in a simple mortal war is really idiotic to me - which is why I would prefer FR in that regard. The 'Cold War' of the archmages in power really feels more modern, politically speaking, then a bunch of blaster-mages throwing Meteor Swarms at each other. I like the cold war between arch-mages in the Realms...though sometimes it does get a little too cold-warish. But it really cool when as PC gets involved....PC just became a archmage...next day Manshhon and Elminster show up to welcome him to the club and explain why blowing up archmage as if they were cannon fodder is a bad thing. Even if I've made some hyperbole above, and even if I do think that FR's levels ARE a little inflated, my opinion still stands: Eberron is just as bad, on the other side of the scale, with little TRULY realistic (no, saying 'They all died in the war' is not realism) reasoning behind it. But, that's really my ONLY major gripe with the setting, which is a lot LESS than the griping I do with the current state of the Realms, and what they will become. Again like the FR, Eberron is what you make it. I see alot of things I can do in Eberron as I used to with the Realms. |
| johnkretzer10-05-07, 09:17 PM | I continue to lurk on the Eberron boards. There's some genuinely good stuff there - I'd just rip out a lot of the 3E methodology behind it. NPCs will gain levels just like PCs, because it's moronic to assume that just because a player's playing a character, that he/she should be treated any differently. That smacks of self-aggrandizing egoism even too great for MY pedantic tastes. Again there is no rule in Eberron that states NPCs can't gain levels along with the PCs...anymore then there are rules that NPCs auto gain levels in the Realms. |
| GothicDan10-05-07, 09:22 PM | In the 1E Grey Box it said that there were no definite levels in the Realms, and that NPCs should scale to fit the players and the DM's needs, if I recall correctly. That would imply that they do indeed gain levels in a similar way to PCs, in general. |
| Dark Wizard10-05-07, 10:12 PM | Step 1 to fixing the Realms, remove the power creep/level bloat. The original sources allowed far more freedom in NPC stats, they were DM tools. In more recent editions (parts of 2e included) the NPCs seemed to get more solid stats and most importantly the numbers keep climbing. The new edition gives them the best opportunity to fix it. First 4e claims to support up to 30 levels, perfect for some of the Realms NPCs. Already as it stands the Realms represent all levels of play (not all high level opponents are monsters). Character stats are one of the few things people expect to be retconned in an edition change, there needs to be no explanation for it. If the new Realms arrives and the character levels are still bloated, then all of this would have been for nothing. Shar forbid the designers replace NPCs with actual/other DMPCs or GDPCs in this case. |
| johnkretzer10-05-07, 10:25 PM | In the 1E Grey Box it said that there were no definite levels in the Realms, and that NPCs should scale to fit the players and the DM's needs, if I recall correctly. That would imply that they do indeed gain levels in a similar way to PCs, in general. I agree and that is how I treat them in Eberron...hey that should be the rule of all D&D settings. |
| GothicDan10-05-07, 10:36 PM | It totally should be. :) |
| Mula10-06-07, 12:22 AM | If people in general gain "levels" by killing stuff, you're assuming that experience points and character levels actually exist in the world, instead of merely being a way to represent characters advancing in a story? |
| johnkretzer10-06-07, 01:27 AM | If people in general gain "levels" by killing stuff, you're assuming that experience points and character levels actually exist in the world, instead of merely being a way to represent characters advancing in a story? If you look at the game as a story that is true...I think of the game as a reality onto itself created my the collective imagination of the DM and players. It is more than a story because a story revolves around the protagonist. To me a RPG take it farther by having events happening out side the PCs control. So the NPCs should gain levels( at what rate varies from NPC to NPC depending on the NPC) because life in the world continues even when the PCs aren't directly involved. Which is why I keep saying I am against these changes and type of changes. I would perfer to see a more logical( or emotional) graduel change to game setting. Then changing them for the sake of the 'story' mmm....my guess is people are going to start looking at me funny. Sigh I often used the 'storytelling' verbal shortcut to non-gamers all the time. Now it seems that their people who take it literaly... |
| (Psi)SeveredHead10-06-07, 01:42 PM | I wonder why people focus on magipunk in this thread. Deity and level reductions are a more likely change to FR... IMO. I really think that there's an exaggerated idea about the low level of NPCs in Eberron around. There are a fairly sizeable number who approach epic levels - Oalian would probably qualify to take epic feats as a Treant Druid 20, if the stats actually mattered that much. And there are others such as Vol, Mordain, the leaders of the Dreaming Dark and such who have similar levels, even before you start getting involved with dragons, ancient giants, and Rakshasa Rajahs. Oalian doesn't leave his grove. Vol would be toasted by dragons. The Dreaming Dark itself is restricted to another plane. The rakshashas are sealed. The ancient giants are dead. The NPCs are already controlled, and of course they don't break the world every other novel as they're just not that powerful. |
| Puggins10-06-07, 04:07 PM | This is my biggest contention with the setting, from a realistic point of view. In war, the 'death toll' is usually lowest among the academics. As a Physicst (which I maintain is still the closest analogy to the wizard), I'd be more interested in preserving my science, experiments, and what not, then throwing my life away in a war. Well, the fundamental difference between a physicist and a wizard is that the physicist creates weapons for his country/ethos/side, while the wizard is the weapon for his country/ethos/side. A better analogy to a wizard would be a highly skilled tank commander. Now, there are some (maybe a lot!) of 'patriotic' Wizards AND Physicists, sure. But to assume that the vast, vast majority (99%) all did such things (rather than, say, skipping planes, going into hiding, temporal stasis, etc.), such that the current NPC level of Eberron is as it is, just seems... Wrong. Well, a couple of comments: (1) Not ALL wizards died, of course. There's at least one archmage hanging out around Droaam, though he's cut from Halaster's cloth (crazy, amoral and thoroughly insular). Plus there are likely to be some pretty high level mages hanging around the towers of arcanix. (2) The scope of the great war was far larger (at least in proportion) compared to any war that we've seen in recent memory in reality. Think World War I lasting a lot longer due to the presence of artificially created golem and undead troops. Also, World War I is a very apt analogy in more than one way. As the War started in Europe, hardly anyone thought of going into hiding or demurring from service, because they were used to an 18th/19th century mindset of war, where casualties were rather light and there was glory to be seized by the individual. Only when they were introduced to the lethality of modern weaponry did the nobility start to question the wisdom of sending sons into the slaughter. Similarly, I pictured the magic academies of the five nations walking into a devestating war of attrition, confident in their arcane power and the righteousness of their cause. Once they were stuck into the war they were trapped- the first side who pulled its arcane power off the lines would collapse like a house of cards. The thought of dozens of high to Epic level archmages throwing their lives away in a simple mortal war is really idiotic to me - which is why I would prefer FR in that regard. The 'Cold War' of the archmages in power really feels more modern, politically speaking, then a bunch of blaster-mages throwing Meteor Swarms at each other. You're bringing a very modern mindset to the table here. Eberron is currently in a state of cold war, but that's because the nations have all seen the results of a hot war, and want to at least build their forces to nigh-unstoppable levels before making the next move. Also, you're applying a certain sense of proportion that is very mutable. Why does the top 1% of all mages have to consist of Epic characters? Why not have the top 1% be 15th level or so, and have the archmages be the Da Vincis, Einsteins and Bohrs of the world (ie, there are one, maybe two at any one time, and sometimes there are none)? There's nothing preventing that. I can do the same thing with the realms- why not scale Elminster down to being a Wiz13/Acm2/Ftr1 and still have him be one of the two or three most powerful mages in the world? It wouldn't necessarily change anything, except that the active power groups out to squash the realms would probably have to be toned down a bit as well. Even if I've made some hyperbole above, and even if I do think that FR's levels ARE a little inflated, my opinion still stands: Eberron is just as bad, on the other side of the scale, with little TRULY realistic (no, saying 'They all died in the war' is not realism) reasoning behind it. Well, saying that enough died in the war to regress the progress of magical research is certainly valid, and is reflected by several real life scenerios in past human history. But, that's really my ONLY major gripe with the setting, which is a lot LESS than the griping I do with the current state of the Realms, and what they will become. I dunno, I'm sorta hopeful, though I will admit the whole Tyr/Helm/Tymora thing sounds fairly silly. |
| The Ubbergeek10-08-07, 10:14 PM | You know, if you think about it... Some 'eberronification' could be GOOD for the Realms. Now, NOT litteraly eberronification - no dumping of actual stuff like the Silver Flamme or Xen'Drik or such. But some use of the game design philosophy and some concepts used in the making of the Eberron world and it's products. Note two details; it's first some things that actually guys like GothicDan push or follow themselves, and it's also a philosophy related to the one used in Greyhawk. I means,things like; -Focus on the pc guys. -Tone down NPC levels escalation (related to the first item). -Working elements so they are united as a whole, and not dumped or isolated here and there. -Allowing some free ranges, grey zones, inconnus - places for the dm to use as see, to put items as fitting and also wished. -The divine pushed more to have a religious feel and not just saint patrons to get powers and serves. -An emphasis on the already existant and often forgotten moral grey of the setting. And so on. |
| Dark Wizard10-08-07, 10:33 PM | Ubbergeek, I think that's the first post of yours where I can agree with most of the points you made. :D For a long time, how the Realms were treated wasn't even that far from Eberron, but apparently the designers feel Eberron and the Realms are so different that their design approaches have to be vastly different in 4E. I feel it is a mistake to not examine the good design decisions made for both settings and see if the same can work for the other setting. |
| SgtAnjay10-08-07, 11:27 PM | Some good points there..... But of course, it is unneccesary to blow a world up to either improve or create change. Worse, its pretty disingenuous to break something, then call it broken as if it had broken itself. |
| MarkusTay6310-09-07, 12:35 AM | I wholeheartedly agree with the last three posts. There are broken aspects in FR, BUT they were fixable. Unfortunetly, the guys who broke them in the first place are now in charge of fixing everything. Remember back in the Grey box when they promised us all those special 'DM only' areas and plothooks that would never be developed by designers or used by authors? Remember how un-creative hacks immediately started filling in all those areas and using the plothooks in their novels (because they weren't talented enough to develop their own plots)? Do you remeber those days... before they started lying to us on a regular basis? :( Whoah, Mr. Crankypants!Ooh ooh! Can I be a 'Mr. Crankypants' too?! :dancin: Seriously, that made LOL. :D |
| The Ubbergeek10-09-07, 12:44 AM | But then, often, the problems are way too deep for just cosmetic change -and you need a real operation. It's like medecine. If the dammages are too serious, you send the patient at the 'pool table'. (BTW, it is NOT the same team since a good time. About 20 years of distance between Grey and Now. And caling the ones that helped fleshen the stuff WITH Ed 'hacks and liars' is insulting and prove my 'Gygax-Greyhawk syndroma grognards' point. Especially when they may actually be BETTER than Ed at their stuff and specialisations.) |
| johnkretzer10-09-07, 12:46 AM | I got to say I like this post from you. I disagree with some of it but atleast you didn't call somebody a grognard... You know, if you think about it... Some 'eberronification' could be GOOD for the Realms. Now, NOT litteraly eberronification - no dumping of actual stuff like the Silver Flamme or Xen'Drik or such. I think we can all agree with this. I means,things like; -Focus on the pc guys. -Tone down NPC levels escalation (related to the first item).. While I agree I have always used high level NPCs to focus the story on the PCs. They more act like mentors and such. I don't know why they have to be killed off because people can't use the properly. They also provide a connection to the past...they also answear the question of why those high level evil NPCs just doesn't kill the PCs now instead of giving them the chance. Even Eberron has this it is just better hidden from PCs veiw...which in a way is a detraction from the setting. Also I run a realistic setting in which the world doesn't revoveled around the PCs( the focus of the game does. And lastly it is the canon novels that have done more to take the focus of the PCs then any high level NPC...and canon novels will continue to exist. -Working elements so they are united as a whole, and not dumped or isolated here and there.. To me not everything should be connected..it is unrealistic for that...also in Eberron not everything is connected either. -Allowing some free ranges, grey zones, inconnus - places for the dm to use as see, to put items as fitting and also wished. Again I agree and we had those till the current designer took them away...I remeber Sembia would always be left up for DMs to develope...now it has been developed and conquered by the Shades...so you can understand why I don't trust the current design team. -The divine pushed more to have a religious feel and not just saint patrons to get powers and serves. I agree though in Eberron you get players who treat their clerics power as just that...also I think in 3.x with the patron deity BS it did alot to remove the feel of religion from the world. Again I see that issue more then the player then the setting -An emphasis on the already existant and often forgotten moral grey of the setting. I agree whole heartly..though there was some truely evil creatures like orc that they are changing...which I don't like or atleast not with the orcs they are doing it to...and remember they stated Obould...in how many campaign do you think he is still alive in? Very messy. But back to your point I agree unfortunaly I think the designs are moving to a more simpler black and white world...with the deities they are killing most of the were neutral( even Mystra was neutral to a degree in that her office if you will kept her from acting on her goodly nature). Even the drow who could be good following Eilistraee beacon might be loosing that. So how is the world going to be more grey? |
| MarkusTay6310-09-07, 01:17 AM | But then, often, the problems are way too deep for just cosmetic change -and you need a real operation.But if what you are left with looks nothing like the original, why bother? Just create something new instead. (BTW, it is NOT the same team since a good time. About 20 years of distance between Grey and Now. And caling the ones that helped fleshen the stuff WITH Ed 'hacks and liars' is insulting and prove my 'Gygax-Greyhawk syndroma grognards' point. Especially when they may actually be BETTER than Ed at their stuff and specialisations.)The 1e stuff was great, as was most of the 2e stuff. Only with the advent of 3e and the latest 'team in charge' have we seen the Realms begin to tip into the oblivion. The fans didn't do that, nor did the Realms themselves - it was mis-management. Something Eberron, thankfully, does not have. Personally, I don't really care. MY Realms will be exactly the way I want them for as long as I want them to be - and I will still switch to 4e rules because unlike THEM, I can do it with very little disturbance. But then again, what do I know? Designers get PAID to design, so they have to justify their income somehow. ;) |
| SgtAnjay10-09-07, 01:44 AM | But then, often, the problems are way too deep for just cosmetic change -and you need a real operation. It's like medecine. If the dammages are too serious, you send the patient at the 'pool table'.Again, you can make much more than "cosmetic change" without invoking a magical apocalypse. The Realms have been changing since their creation, and its been much more than just "cosmetic". Moreover, if you think the Forgotten Realms were so broken or diseased or whatnot that it needs major surgery, fine and dandy. I'll disagree with that 10 times out of 10, but that's a difference of opinion. Fact is, though, WotC has had quite a number of years since 3rd ed came about to work on things they thought was in need of fixing or adjustment. They have, however, chosen to use 4th ed as a chance (or, some would say, excuse) to blow up the world instead. To use your little medical analogy, lets not pretend that its anyone but the doctor's fault if by failing to treat an infected cut the limb now needs to be removed. I also wouldn't be unfailingly confident the doctor responsible is the one best suited for the surgery. |
| Charles Phipps10-09-07, 02:47 AM | I think people are looking at arbitrary rules changes between Eberron and Realms for the differences between them when it's actually pretty damn the nature of the themes in the land. The Forgotten Realms: Are a wild and untamed land filled with monsters and ruins leftover from dozens of magical empries in the middle of a dark age with only a few stable kingdoms amongst the vast swaths of unclaimed land. It's very "Hyborea" where travelling from Waterdeep to Suzail is something you seriously have to wonder about Gargoyle attack or meeting Cyric on the road. The Gods walk Toril and shatter everything they touch while Wizards are capable of equalling their might. vs Eberron Eberron has been a continent settled for the better part of a 1000 years. There's pretty much nothing in the way of wandering monsters in the majority of the continent. Furthermore, with non-evil humanoids as the rule. You can damn well pass a dozen Lizard men Tribes on your way from Q'Barra to Breland but you're probably not going to be attacked by them unless they need food or money. In FR, just living there is an adventure. In Eberron, everything is the product of various plots and counterplots between the existing powers. Eberron isn't remotely similiar to Forgotten Realms, but it *IS* pretty damn similiar to other campaign settings; I refer to Dragonlance and Mystara. In Dragonlance, the setting is actually pretty damn peaceful except for when the Queen of Darkness is raising Hell for whatever reason. Also, Dragonlance is low level and used to have rules about not exceeding X level. Par-Salian is the most powerful wizard in the world at the time of the War of the Lance. His level? 13th. Eberron is just not as mystically advanced as the Realms. |
| Flecha10-09-07, 03:24 AM | Thanks Charles, and impressive analysis! :) I like it a lot when you compare somewhat the Realms to the Hyborean Age, because it's quite right. I always describe the Realms as a Middle Age *really* role-playable mixed with the Hyborean Age. Besides, in your analysis is easy to see the "classical" and "mythological" aspects of the Realms, aspects that completely differenciate them from Eberron. That is, until now. We'll see, though... |
| Charles Phipps10-09-07, 03:45 AM | Yeah, I consider Eberron sort of Masque of the Red Death 3rd Edition. There's monsters but 90% of everything can be traced back to the Qabals. Those secret societies are always trying to blow up Queen Victoria or summon a portal to the Nine Hells. 9/10 its going to be one of the Usual suspects. PEOPLE as a rule are safe in Eberron. At least until the Vampire-Transformation Bomb is about to be set off by the Thule Society....err I mean Emerald Claw. In the Forgotten Realms, you can pretty much just have Joe Wizard set up his own independent kingdom by conquering all the surrounding villages for 200 miles. All this without the involvement of the Zhents or Thay. It's a land of infinite variety of adventures. Joe Farmer may have been attacked by a Bullette because the Realms are just THAT hostile. But yeah, it's High Fantasy vs. basically the 1930s with Magic replacing technology (Including Lovecraftian monsters beneath the ground) |
| MarkusTay6310-09-07, 03:09 PM | Eberron isn't remotely similiar to Forgotten Realms, but it *IS* pretty damn similiar to other campaign settings; I refer to Dragonlance and Mystara.I don't see that at all, but different strokes for different folks. :cool: GH and FR are so similar they even have NPCs in common, and both are 'generic' fantasy settings. BTW, I'm not using the word 'generic' in a derogatory in any way there, it's just that both of those settings follow more traditional fantasy-world patterns (dare I say Tolkienesque?). Eberron like DL? Maybe the Gnomes of Nevermid could build a train, but other then that I don't see it. I'm also a BIG fan of Masque of the Red Death, but I don't see a very good connection there either. If you are talking about powerful movers and shakers acting in the background to push events the way they want, then you just described FR to a 'T'. Everyone sees things differently, I suppose, but I'm just not getting this at all. Also, if everything you say about FR is true, then FR always was the PERFECT setting for "Points of Light" and therefore is the only setting that didn't need ANY changes to fit into the 4e model. |
| Charles Phipps10-09-07, 03:20 PM | Eberron like DL? Maybe the Gnomes of Nevermid could build a train, but other then that I don't see it. As I'm saying it's a largely settled campaign world that doesn't have much in the way of high level fighters or wizards. Raistlin Majere is one of two Epic level wizards in the entire campaign setting history. The average "greatest warrior in the land" is 13th. It's a campaign setting where PCs can quickly establish themselves as the Big HeroesTM. Forgotten Realms is a place where you could stick every hero in fantasy and it wouldn't make much difference except to the individual lives saved. It's like the DC universe where there's room for Superman, Green Lantern, Wonder Woman, etc. I'm also a BIG fan of Masque of the Red Death, but I don't see a very good connection there either. If you are talking about powerful movers and shakers acting in the background to push events the way they want, then you just described FR to a 'T'. Forgotten Realms intrigue isn't remotely similiar to Eberron intrigue or Masque, though. Because in the Forgotten Realms you have a dangerous world where it's extraordinarilly easy to just use brute force to carve yourselves a kingdom like King Obould or Fzoul did. Outside of Cormyr, lineage is unimportant compared to the content of one's character. You could very much just overthrow the King of Tethyr and rule there if you were a sufficiently grandiose hero. Eberron, on the other hand, pretty much is a land of set in stone politics where everything has to be done by the book. No matter how beloved you are in Breland, there's no way in Hell you can ever be King because the whole thing is built on the lineage of Galifar. It's, again, very similiar to Earth. |
| capnvan10-09-07, 05:00 PM | Ooh ooh! Can I be a 'Mr. Crankypants' too?! :dancin: No one here wants to know what you do after hours... :rolleyes: |
| KarlR10-10-07, 10:39 AM | Well, according to that picture in Grand History of the Realms, there were/are warforged in FR. I can't remember the page, but it shows a rehashed picture from one of the Eberron books...a warforged being repaired by mini-constructs. (one reason, that while I think the book is very cool, I wont buy..that art piece is a deal-breaker to me) |
| Charles Phipps10-10-07, 10:50 AM | Yeah, its not like Lantan/Tilverton or Haruula never had golems. |
| MarkusTay6310-10-07, 10:58 AM | It has been stated NUMEROUS times already thet the pic was a MISTAKE. It is supposed to be a dragon, but someone screwed up. The closest hint we have of Warforged appearing 'out of the past' is the vingette that discusses The scouring of the East. Bloodforged = Warforged. ;) |
| 18DELTA10-10-07, 11:30 AM | Yeah is you was to go by the pics. Then Pelor, the Buring hate is now taking Lathanders spot in the Realms!:D Go figureout what I mean!:P |
| Ramenth10-10-07, 11:52 AM | Ebberon isnt really a points of light setting... |
| MarkusTay6310-10-07, 12:11 PM | ANY setting, where you can travel for a short while and get to 'something' that requires an adventurer's attention, is already 'point-of-light'. Basically, that means EVERY setting ever made was already 'points-of-light', because there have always been cvilized areas, with 'adventure zones' in-between. Points-of-Light is just a made-up buzzword - it is the very core concept behind ALL RPGs, otherwise they would be incredibly boring. The fact that the current designers are trying to take credit for an idea that has been around forever - one that Gygax first embraced when he wrote the first set of rules - is ridiculous! Of course Eberron is 'Points-of-Light' - can you go somewhere where there is less civilization and encounter 'bad things'? How about the Mournlands, or any of the 'Monster Kingdoms'? How about Xendrik? ALL RPG settings are POL, don't let them fool you because they've come out with a cute new buzzword to describe an old idea. :ahem: |
| Charles Phipps10-10-07, 12:19 PM | Ebberon isnt really a points of light setting... I'm still not sure what that means. Ravenloft was a Points of Light Setting I think. Eberron is a setting where everyone is burned out from a massive 100 year Magical War. Your PCs are just the last people left willing to fight. |
| MarkusTay6310-10-07, 01:49 PM | Are there places you can go and find adventure? Then it's 'points of light', plain and simple. Our own RW is POL - I can travel to the Australian Outback, the Amazon Jungle, deep sea dive into a trench (and die from being crushed ;) ), Unearth ancient tombs in Egypt, travel the Sarengetti, drive a caravan across the Sahara, fight pirates in the southern mediterraen (yes, such things STILL exist), explore the arctic, or even look for Bigfoot or the Loch Ness monster. POL is an incredibly over-simplified concept that has always existed EVERYWHERE. Even Star Trek had points of light... |
| Charles Phipps10-10-07, 03:04 PM | I think what they mean is the setting is dark and degenerative. Things will get MUCH MUCH WORSE unless your players can pull it out. |
| MarkusTay6310-10-07, 04:10 PM | The one thing I do like about many of the changes I am anticipating seems to be a trend to make the setting more cohesive as a whole. Eberron has had this from the beginning, because the entire planet was designed from the ground up by a single team, and the designers have continued to build on that consistencey. There was quite a bit of 'quirkiness' left over from 2e, stuff that was a bit silly or even completely out-of-place. 3e has gone to great lengths to fix all that, and I think 4e will take it to the next level and simply 'erase' whatever didn't work. For one thing, all the different 'Middle-Eastern' flavored cultures. GHotR has explaoned awy some of it (The Imaskari were Dupari, and the Dupari themselves appear to have migrated from Zakhara). I'm sure with the resurgence of a Netherese Empire, we will se the ill-thought out Bedine disappear. Probably those cool tribes that Schend created as well - they simple do not fit into that region anymore since SK came out. Thats the kind of stuff I really wouldn't mind, so if they are going for the complete re-build route, maybe it IS something the setting has needed, despite our love for established lore. |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin10-10-07, 07:51 PM | I'm still not sure what that means. Ravenloft was a Points of Light Setting I think. Eberron is a setting where everyone is burned out from a massive 100 year Magical War. Your PCs are just the last people left willing to fight. Why should they be the only ones left to fight, though? |
| MarkusTay6310-10-07, 11:31 PM | Well, we have some confirmation - (1) It's a D&D campaign setting and an FR campaign setting. It feels like FR, but also it uses 4E game mechanics and incorporates all 4E races and classes. The Spellplague and its effects on the world enable us to integrate new 4E mechanics and world elements into the setting in a manner that doesn't require us to ignore canon or rewrite history. Large parts of the world won't be affected horribly. We're not going to destroy Cormyr, level Waterdeep, or blow up Silverymoon, for instance. We like these places as much as anyone. However, there are some parts of the world that aren't quite so beloved and don't have much happening in or around them. Many of these areas are likely to undergo some level of change.So, FR WILL be core - one rules set for all, just like I've been saying. Also, note the word I accented - if Warforged are in the Core PHB, we WILL see them in the 4e Realms. |
| Ramenth10-10-07, 11:37 PM | Are there places you can go and find adventure? Then it's 'points of light', plain and simple. Our own RW is POL - I can travel to the Australian Outback, the Amazon Jungle, deep sea dive into a trench (and die from being crushed ;) ), Unearth ancient tombs in Egypt, travel the Sarengetti, drive a caravan across the Sahara, fight pirates in the southern mediterraen (yes, such things STILL exist), explore the arctic, or even look for Bigfoot or the Loch Ness monster. POL is an incredibly over-simplified concept that has always existed EVERYWHERE. Even Star Trek had points of light... I was under the impression that points of light refered to a world submerged in darkness and destruction, where only a few points of light remained as bastians of the good aligned forces while the rest of the world is pretty much a sea of degeneration, destruction, anarchy, war, and general suffering. Edit: Thats really why the Realms arent turning turning into Ebberon. Despite the what, hundred years, of warfare in Ebberon, the world is still pretty good. It has large cities. Its not completely over run by insane wizards. Yeah, its not in the best shape ever, but its not completely ruined. The Realms seem to be heading much more towards complete ruin than anything else. |
| MarkusTay6310-10-07, 11:55 PM | I could run FR all 'roses and dafodils', and I can run Eberron like it was a Ravenloft horror-fest. A setting is merely that - backdrop. The DM sets the mood. At least we are getting some confirmations now, so we can stop a lot of the guess-work. |
| Charles Phipps10-11-07, 08:02 AM | Why should they be the only ones left to fight, though? I'm not sure that they will be, because invariably new author heroes will be created. Plus, there will no doubt still be Harpers and so on. It'll just make it seem the world is dangerous in a different way. |
| Rauric10-11-07, 08:59 AM | It should be like Eberron with less gods in Novels, but the gods can still interact if they need to through messages and servants. Just less gods in the Novels. Hopefully Paul Kemps novels are the last we will see of this. I do love the Cale novels though, plus I love Mask. I just think he is doing it in a fair manner and they should let that series mark the end of Deities in Novels. I used to love reading about the gods in the novels but I tried rereading those tales 10 years later and it wasn't as much fun. I have always run the Realms as a morally gray place at times so Eberron is just copying MY Realms! ;) Maybe the Zhentarim can just focus on keeping the Moonsea under their control and refocus on Mercantile "domination". We can keep them as the Russia (Soviet Union) of the FR. They can control their little part of the world but any attempt to expand forcefully goes wrong. |
| Rauric10-11-07, 09:02 AM | The one thing I do like about many of the changes I am anticipating seems to be a trend to make the setting more cohesive as a whole. Eberron has had this from the beginning, because the entire planet was designed from the ground up by a single team, and the designers have continued to build on that consistencey. There was quite a bit of 'quirkiness' left over from 2e, stuff that was a bit silly or even completely out-of-place. 3e has gone to great lengths to fix all that, and I think 4e will take it to the next level and simply 'erase' whatever didn't work. For one thing, all the different 'Middle-Eastern' flavored cultures. GHotR has explaoned awy some of it (The Imaskari were Dupari, and the Dupari themselves appear to have migrated from Zakhara). I'm sure with the resurgence of a Netherese Empire, we will se the ill-thought out Bedine disappear. Probably those cool tribes that Schend created as well - they simple do not fit into that region anymore since SK came out. Thats the kind of stuff I really wouldn't mind, so if they are going for the complete re-build route, maybe it IS something the setting has needed, despite our love for established lore. Yeah, I wished they handled the middle-east thing better as well. I hate the Anarouch. I am not a fan of Zhak in FR either. When I was a teen sure, but it seems like it was just crammed in there now that I really look at it. |
| MarkusTay6310-11-07, 02:31 PM | I broke off Chult (it 'floated' south :D ) and stuck Zakhara (reduced in size) on the end of the Calimshan Peninsula. The world makes much more sense THAT way. ;) |
| SgtAnjay10-11-07, 04:12 PM | No warforged in FR, I promise. http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=14052953&postcount=764 ?!?!! |
| LdyShayna10-11-07, 04:14 PM | As I said in that thread, I'm quite happy about this. Individual DMs can make exceptions, but I don't think the warforged fit nicely into the FRs, personally, and would rather it's not a standard race for this setting. So. "Yay." :) |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin10-11-07, 06:36 PM | http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=14052953&postcount=764 ?!?!! I am shocked, but happy. |
| MarkusTay6310-11-07, 06:41 PM | As I said in that thread, I'm quite happy about this. Individual DMs can make exceptions, but I don't think the warforged fit nicely into the FRs, personally, and would rather it's not a standard race for this setting.Which could only mean that they will NOT be appearing in the core PHB. They must be saving them for the Eberron CG. Ah well... it was one of the few things I was looking forward to. Not the Warforged themselves, mind you, but rather the backstory on how they were working them in. Otherwise, everything he admitted is what I've been saying. ;) Not that it was so hard to figure out.... |
| Ramenth10-11-07, 11:35 PM | I could run FR all 'roses and dafodils', and I can run Eberron like it was a Ravenloft horror-fest. A setting is merely that - backdrop. The DM sets the mood. At least we are getting some confirmations now, so we can stop a lot of the guess-work. Yes, but you'd be damn hard pressed to run Ravenloft like it was roses and dafodils. My point was Forgotten Realms seems to be heading more towards Ravenloft or even Fallout than Eberron. |
| Charles Phipps10-12-07, 07:55 AM | Ravenloft- SCOOBY DOO! |
| bykov110-12-07, 10:24 AM | vs Eberron Eberron has been a continent settled for the better part of a 1000 years. There's pretty much nothing in the way of wandering monsters in the majority of the continent. Furthermore, with non-evil humanoids as the rule. You can damn well pass a dozen Lizard men Tribes on your way from Q'Barra to Breland but you're probably not going to be attacked by them unless they need food or money. In FR, just living there is an adventure. In Eberron, everything is the product of various plots and counterplots between the existing powers. Eberron IS a circa 18th-19th century Shadowrun. Even the adventures are pretty much, you get tapped by a Johnson to do this run. Secrecy is paramount. I like it, but it isn't the high-adventure of FR. |