Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Paix 10-25-06, 07:48 PM	I share DM duties and the players have been inspired by news of Obould's armies in the north and the threat they pose to dwarven clanholds there. Now, when I say inspired, only the two dwarven fighters are adamant about heading there and assist their kin, claiming delzoun descent and common ancestry, citing duty and so on. The other four players are all mages of a mercenary nature and not at all interested but the dwarves through a series of backroom deals, stuborness and veiled threats have 'convinced' them. Fortunately, me and the other DM had the chance to read through at least two (between us) of the novels detailing the recent orc advance so we think we have a good idea of the situation and opportunities. That created a bit of a problem though. the mages are 12-14 level, and experienced in battle magic and tactics. I can envision them turning a few of the events around completely and even having a fair chance of taking out Obould himself. From my readin, albeit far from complete, I did not discern any significant magical backing on behalf of the orcs. There is the frost-giant priestess but would love to see Obould dead and unlikely to expend resources to safeguard him and the orc shamans seem unprepared to deal with experiened mages of middling or greater power. The orcs' vast numbers guarantees a steady progression that the mages cannot counter but taking out Obould coupled with devastating displays of magic (as seen from an orc's point of view) worries me. I hate pulling the mysterious uber-mage out of the blue to assist Obould, or use more forced solutions such as wild or dead magic areas and so on. Any thouhts on how to redress this or perhaps you have attempted something similar and dealt with it?
BrianCritchley 10-25-06, 10:28 PM	simple "part of the ceremony that emporered obold gave him a rediculas Magic resistance."
dragonheart 10-29-06, 08:05 PM	Alternatively, when yoru mages start showing up throwing fireballs around obould starts to deal - with the Zhentarim (they have always had a thing for orcs anyway) they get a solid foothold in the north and he gets middling to powerful mages to help him deal with your PCs. (and your PCs start having troubles wiht the Zhentarim if they don't already) If they do have a "record" with the Zhentarim this is almost a surefire deal and a quick way for Obould to get the magical assist he needs. just one thing - don't use (what is his name - the mage from Darkhold with the elven girlfriend) they are no longer there or (apparently) involved with the Zhentarim (based on events in Blackstaff).
CriminalTruth 11-13-06, 03:15 AM	read the last book... I emplore you. also, i dont think those mages would ever get close to aboule... Silverymoon refused to aid mithrial hall ... Do u know who runs that? yea... wtf are 14th lvl mages gonna do? Just run it smart.. IE.. Abdole is never on the front.. surrounded by clerics ( who cast HIGH lvl magics on him.. what level could they be? ) You could add a chosen of something to obule ( make it up? ) i mean.. you read about the serimony right? what about his AC? that armor he wears is not even listed i believe in the books? ( is it? ) your the DM change it.. make him higher level.. Dont forget monsters are scalable... theres a reason that high level fighters can run and cut down tons of orcs.. sure.. but guess what? if they are by the thousands... OVERUN? .... i dont see it happening.. Just run it as is.. and im sure you should be fine... ( again.. who runs silverymoon? yea.. alistrial ran away... what level is she? ) also gerti would NEVER openly betray obdule.. so while she might want him DEAD.... trust me.. she would take out the wizards... not only that who's to say that obdule would use fair tactics against mages? i mean drizzit is one THING...( he is a fighter) but a mage? pssh..( my spelling is horrid this morning no sleep ) your mages have no chance... sorry
Questing GM 11-13-06, 09:50 AM	Well in LoD, there is the Arcane Brotherhood whose plans perfectly coincides with what Obould is doing so if only Obould could draw an alliance with them...:devil:
Crust 11-13-06, 09:54 AM	Powerful wizards in FR could scry/teleport/annihilate Obould in two rounds. The only thing stopping that from happening is RAS/WotC. :rolleyes:
Red_Wizard 11-13-06, 11:07 AM	Scrying becomes increasingly more difficult, the less your know about someone, or something. If i say "scry Obould" your most likely gonna say "what the hell are you going on about"....The majority of people, in the realms mind you, have never, and will never hear the name Obould.....Atleast until he finishes what he set out to do, possibly in the next series. Next issue, is that Teleporting in is gonna mean diddly squat if you play with an interesting effect like afterdaze. even if you don't, what spell are you gonna use to cover your ass once in there? i don't remember a "armor against a thousand orcs" spell tucked anywhere in the back of the PHB. Maybe it's just me, but your wizard doesn't have enough magical protections to stop a bull rushing, magically armoured and enhanced Obould, AND his thousands of Orcs from cutting you to fish food in a matter of seconds. Then, you have the issue that Obould has his priestess following him around near non stop, 24/7, and she comes across as more than capable of putting a simple non detection spell on "Gruumsh incarnate", thus foiling any almighty wizards already lacking ability to scry him. Now we come around to the issue of "it's four freaking wizards". If you are gonna try and come in before the final book, then that means in order to get to Mithral Hall, you are gonna have to cross some territory, with either trolls, or a whole butt load of Orcs (not to mention miles of open wilderness, possibly through the troll moor). Now maybe i'm confused, and never played a wizard.....or maybe i'm a bad liar, and only play wizards :P, the point is, even if i knew nothing about them, 4 dandy's sprinting across an open plain in heady combersome robes, with the landscape marred by 10,000 orcs, even casting maximized fireballs, or whatever else they deem appropriate to prepare for the day, they are never gonna get to the gate, and somehow through it's closed doors, before their merry little band, is reduced to an ungly stain, on the already organ laden snow about the hall. So long ranting story short, it IS possible to do this if the DM does it right, (which without having read the books, and having an amazing grasp on the realms, and what is an isn't possible/metagaming, would be incredibly unlikely), and it is also possible for the novels to pan out in the exact manner they do/did, despite what some who spend far to long planning out a character with one all powerful NPC death in mind. p.s. Unless anyones merry little band has some hidden vorpal sword +20 hidden in their forbidden areas, your not just single handedly stopping Obould, where Drizzt failed 3 times, the last of which weilding Kazad'hea.
Crust 11-13-06, 07:49 PM	If the people of Silverymoon know about Obould's 10,000+ orc invasion (which they do), plenty of high-level wizards and dark clerics know about Obould as well. The Gem of the North is no tiny little town of farmers. It's a hub of information and learning. Obould is well known. There's no shortage of powerful spellcasters in the Realms. If it should strike the whim of any powerful wizard or cleric who is even marginally aware of 10,000+ orcs attacking the North, a spellcaster who thinks it's wrong and that Obould should die immedietely for the good of the North or his/her own ambitions, that same wizard or cleric could very easily cast legend lore, contact other plane, wish, or miracle to discover enough information about Obould to make a pin-point scry/teleport/annihilation. One arch wizard is absolutely no match for Obould and his orcs if his/her mission is Obould's death. The array of spells available would allow for a vast number of possible scenarios, leading to Obould's death and the survival of the spellcaster. Before Obould's closest guards would even react, Obould would be dead, and with a buffed arch wizard's next action being teleport without error, even Obould lieutenants and scraping adepts/clerics would have no real chance of hindering the arch wizard before he/she escaped, cackling madly at the pig-faced brutes in their weakness and ignorance. :plotting: Or that wizard or cleric could cast greater planer binding, summoning a pit fiend using a variety of binding spells and promising the souls of 100 virgins, and bid the devil hurtle across the North hunting Obould, an filthy orc who crawled out of his hole to play at warfare. It wouldn't take long. The devil would blaze a charred path straight to the orc king and kill him outright. Should Obould go into hiding, an immortal pit fiend with super intelligence would have no trouble finding him, using teleport without error to best him in any tactical escape. It's ridiculous to think that Obould's orcs have magical weapons (nothing has suggested otherwise), so that pit fiend could casually tear off Obould's head and eat out his brain while the entire army cowers and is driven mad with fear. Hell, the pit fiend could use mass hold monster every round and paralyze Obould's orcs by the dozens as they moved in. That same pit fiend might then choose to slaughter orcs at its leisure... whatever orcs don't run away screaming, driven mad by the devil's fear aura. :evillaugh And the only thing stopping that from happening is RAS/WotC, not Obould and his army. :bored: Drizzt lost to Obould for the above reason as well, and none other. And there's no moral high ground stopping Obould's death. Orcs do not fill a necessary niche in Faerun's ecology. They're not native to Toril, so forcing their extinction would not doom the planet in any way, nor cause the total extinction of the species (as they are rather ubiquitous on various planes). And they're not misunderstood either, as if the free peoples of the North should show them some form of civil rights. Orcs are blatantly evil, and should be killed. Those who don't understand that get killed by orcs. Of course, the Zhents or Red Wizards or the Arcane Brotherhood or the Twisted Rune or drow elves or Phaerimm or Shade might think Obould a good distraction, and I'm sure plenty of organizations are enjoying the show, hoping to collect spoils in some way. That's clear. The point is, if it struck the whim of an evil, powerful spellcaster that Obould should die, the orc king would be doomed completely. He only exists because powerful spellcasters allow him to exist. Obould should be made aware of that right before he dies. ;)
Ramenth 11-13-06, 09:00 PM	Isn't Obould innanely resistant to magic?
Crust 11-13-06, 09:11 PM	Isn't Obould innanely resistant to magic? He could be immune to magic, and still that pit fiend could insert its fist into the orc king's posterior and operate him like a puppet before opening its fist in a red spray of skull shards and gray matter. ;)
Questing GM 11-13-06, 10:52 PM	Then wouldn't the question be, WHY would any evil being/organization have a good enough reason to murder Obould considering what he is doing right now ? ;) Invading a 'good' region, slaughtering innocents, staking out Mithral Hall, sounds like evil.....:devil: There are many opportunity to be had from the invasion that evil organizations could gain rather than benefitting from Obould's death (except maybe Gerti but who has been beaten). They could basically just sit back and enjoy the mayhem knowing that Obould is a valuable asset to the fall of the Silver Marches.
Crust 11-13-06, 11:15 PM	Then wouldn't the question be, WHY would any evil being/organization have a good enough reason to murder Obould considering what he is doing right now ? ;) Because he's an orc and doesn't deserve the power he assumes he has. It could be that simple. Invading a 'good' region, slaughtering innocents, staking out Mithral Hall, sounds like evil.....:devil: His actions might be evil, but that doesn't mean that other evil individuals would abide orcs slaughtering humans and other free peoples. Would it be easier for the evil organizations of the North to deal with fierce, barbaric orcs or timid, relatively ignorant humans, elves, dwarves, gnomes, etc.? Sure, the heroes are a different story, but when it comes to subjugation and the economy of the North, orcs are a step down, and shouldn't be allowed to destroy the complex network kept in place by organizations such as the Zhentarim and other organized crime syndicates. For the life of me, I can't understand why ANY humans, elves, dwarves, etc., no matter how evil, would abide Obould's actions. This is the time when, perhaps, Mithril Hall and the Zhentarim should unite against a common threat, like Azoun did against the Tuigan. There are many opportunity to be had from the invasion that evil organizations could gain rather than benefitting from Obould's death (except maybe Gerti but who has been beaten). They could basically just sit back and enjoy the mayhem knowing that Obould is a valuable asset to the fall of the Silver Marches. Yes, I mentioned this above, but it should only last so long. As I said, no human, elf, dwarf, gnome, or halfling, no matter how evil, should prefer a world of orcs over their own kind (humanoids of the base PHB variety, specifically).
Crust 11-13-06, 11:16 PM	Double post? How? :confused: :hides:
Questing GM 11-14-06, 12:16 AM	But wouldn't you agree that the Silver Marches (or Alustriel) is a bigger threat to the evil organizations than Obould ? :D I don't think any evil organization would have any cause to side with Silverymoon, not while it is in the interest for them to see it fall (like the Arcane Brotherhood who are particularly interested in...)whether by human (or the other PHB races) or orc hands... Besides once Obould conquers the Silver Marches, either the evil organizations would step in and remove him or they would have already joined forces with him to bring down Silverymoon. As the discussion of this thread has suggested, Obould would need magical support from somewhere. While the evil organizations have no reason to ally themselves with Silverymoon neither do they have one to deny the magical help that Obould would need to bring down the Gem of the North, which is something i believe that is shared by everyone with evil intent. Another thing is that if Obould does make Silver Marches orc country, he would most certainly be more exposed or easier to manipulate (see how the drows did it) than a council...which is another opportunity in itself for the Zhents, Brotherhood or whoever to expand their network of influence...
Crust 11-14-06, 12:41 AM	But wouldn't you agree that the Silver Marches (or Alustriel) is a bigger threat to the evil organizations than Obould ? :D Yes. The difference is Alustriel, an epic level wizard, a Chosen of Mystra, and the ally of some of the most powerful beings in Faerun, is leading Silverymoon, whereas Obould is a orc with a CR, at best, in the early teens. Obould is an easy target, whereas Alustriel is not. I don't think any evil organization would have any cause to side with Silverymoon, not while it is in the interest for them to see it fall (like the Arcane Brotherhood who are particularly interested in...)whether by human (or the other PHB races) or orc hands... I agree, which is why I suggested a union between Mithril Hall and the Zhents. Alustriel would never abide a union with the Zhents. Another thing is that if Obould does make Silver Marches orc country, he would most certainly be more exposed or easier to manipulate (see how the drows did it) than a council...which is another opportunity in itself for the Zhents, Brotherhood or whoever to expand their network of influence... The end result is a region full of chaotic, filthy orcs, which isn't good for anyone other than orcs, and that can't stand. As for the OP, I would think it would be easy for a party of 12-14th level PCs to infiltrate Obould's sanctum and slay him. Four wizards at those levels, using polymorph, invisibility, and teleport, could very easily infiltrate the orc ranks and take Obould by surprise, riddling him with spells that, even if Obould has SR, ignore SR altogether. Also, I would only really consider the information in the FRCS, as other sources, in my opinion, stretch things a bit and stray from (and in some cases, flat-out contradict) the logic suggested by stat blocks and the rules of the game.
Questing GM 11-14-06, 01:41 AM	Fair enough. Although i remembered something about orcs and Zhents having some kind of understanding with each other. Back to the OP, while one solution to prevent Obould from being blast into smitereens by your mages would be to get magical help (from whoever), i suggest not giving them the chance to even get a shot can be an alternative...:D Since Obould is physically like any other orc (only with a nice crown, armor and flaming sword), he could find doubles. So until the mages could establish his real identity, they would probably be frustrated killing fakes and making them think they had kill Obould only to hear news that the horde is expanding and gaining momentum. :P Considering that Obould has enough manpower that can easily outnumber 4 mages, he has the resources and should be cunning enough (he is the most cunning of them all, presumably) to trick them. I mean even though the mages are good at blowing things up doesn't mean they are smart enough to identify who is the REAL Obould. ;) Also if Obould sents his scouts to scour for magical items/artifacts, there should be a nice piece of magical item that is just lying around somewhere that protects him from mages...this is FR afterall. :D Or after witnessing the first devastation by the mages, Obould could hire mage-killers to specifically go against them. Better yet, simply hire the mages to his side. You mentioned there were the mercenary type, right ? :D
Questing GM 11-14-06, 01:59 AM	Another way is just like in the Return of the Archwizard trilogy, just distract them away from Obould to uncover a more sinister plot. Allowing yourself to explore the Shadow Weave with your mages through the prensence of Sharrans perhaps ? :cool:
Paix 11-15-06, 10:16 PM	Thank you everyone, for the ideas put forward. Crux mostly covered my thoughts. Although the players are not capable of binding powerful planar creatures, they are experienced enough to plan and carry out 'lighting fast' strikes. They have been gaming as a mercenary band and are experienced in finding their place in large scale battles. As I already mentioned, their motivation stems from a mix of backdoor deals and a bit of arm twisting by two dwarven fighters, dear friends (infrequent players) of the main four mages, who claim a Delzoun bloodline. Getting to Mithral Hall will certainly be a big task, no mistakes there. They do not know the place nor do any of the dwarves there know or have any reason to trust them. But that part can be planned and played out normaly. Crux pointed out and I have reached a similar conclusion, that Obould lives because the story required him to do so. This is not about novels sticking to game material and therefore having to deal with every powerful character out there before telling a story. The novels were enjoyable in their own right and a nice change of pace from more 'magic-heavy ones'. What I am trying to do, is make it into an involving and immersive mini-campaign for an actual game, without sounding forced or using a deus ex machina trick, to justify why Alustriel or similar beings (good or evil) tolerate Obould. A degree of magic resistance, granted by the ritual, is something I would be including but even that has limitations. The Arcane Brotherhood, providing some assistance against magical attempts on Obould, is also worthy of exploration. I will need to check up on the history and motivations of the group and blend it in; and yes, Obould will be surrounded by a cleric circle as well. I am thinking that in the end, in the aftermath of the last battle, the dwarves of Mithral Hall may not want the characters to attempt assasination. Although that leaves room for them to try before that but maybe I can make it so that their chances are slim. Our games do not have set objectives, and they do not always win or have to do so. They have learned the value of live to fight another day or that there is more than one way to succeed or failing that to achieve some gains. Believability through some modest 'realism' is my main concern, not epic aims or grand adventure necesserily, at this stage.
Paix 11-16-06, 08:32 PM	Distracting them with magic; that has merits. They are always keen on new magic or uncovering secrets. Magic in our campaign is more along the lines of Volo's Guide to all things Magical. That is, proesses are not standardized and there are many mysteries surrounding even the most mundane things. I am not very comfortable with the Shadow Weave though. Our experience is mostly 2e, and I am not yet sure about all its aspects to introduce it fully. And they have no clue that it even exists. Perhaps they can be distracted, but with the dwarves accompanying them, I doubt they will take the bait.
Faraer 11-16-06, 08:42 PM	It's not clear from the sources to what extent orc hordes are held together by sole powerful leaders. It may well be that simply slaying Obould would not in itself sedate this one.
Paix 11-17-06, 08:33 AM	Yes, that was my last thought about the dwarves of Mithral Hall not wanting them to slay Obould. They already know that the orcs are trying to hold on to their gains and not expand, and have already had experience of Obould and a glimpse into his mindset. They may not wish to upset the status quo at this point and force an orc horde to pick a new leader, who may well march then onwards to cause more death and devastation. And although dwarves relish a good fight, they also feel their losses more keenly than orcs, once their pride subsides. So, at least for a time they may chose the devil they know, over an unpredictabe future.
The Simbul 11-17-06, 03:18 PM	You arent required to read any novels in order to run a FR game, and you certainly arent required to bend the D&D rules or pull things out of the air just to accomodate what happened in a novel, especially when it defies any logical reading of the game rules or sourcebooks. All you "need" to read/adhere to in order to have a "fair" campaign is the FRCS and Silver Marches...novels are never an accurate account of what would happen at the game table, especially since the events that occur in the realms are events that occur outside of the scope of Player Character interaction. Players can easily change the course of events if they wanted to and if the DM isnt going to railroad the campaign to intersect with an official timeline or the 'continuity' of realms fiction. We have Obould's statistics, he is a CR 9 Orc, he has no added special qualities, nor a heretofore non-existent "Chosen of Grummsh" template. We also have reasonable (and rather optimized) statistics for Orc armies of numerous sizes thanks to Heroes of Battle, along with full stat blocks for vitually all of its various ranks, and we have access to statistics for Orc commanders who are more powerful than Obould. A group of 14th level heroes should have no trouble defeating him, regardless of whatever logic defying leaps of fiction persuade us to believe that Drizzt is somehow incapable of the task. Moreover, they could easily spend the rest of the campaign waging hit and run skirmishes with the rest of his (demoralized and scattered) forces after his death. The fact that the group largely consists of mages only makes matters worse for Obould. Any 14th level Wizard can easily outsmart him, and any 14th level Sorcerer can easily raise and command armies far better than he can (thanks to things like Leadership, NPC contacts, planar binding, charm, Rally checks, and other methods of commanding allies that are all entirely based off your Charisma score). Obould has a will saving throw of +3, no magic items that can interdict scrying or teleportation, and his most powerful spellcasting allies are an Orc Adept 13 and Gerti, who is a frost giant Cleric 5/Runecaster 4. greater invibility + greater scrying + greater teleport + full attack from both the dwarves and four finger of death spells from the four mages = 1 dead Orc King. Hell, you could kill him with one maximized fireball, as he has a reflex save of +3 and he will be engulfed in four additional 3d6 fireballs if he fails the initial save thanks to his crown. As for Silverymoon refusing to help Mithril Hall, I would certainly love to know how that happened (and no I dont plan on reading the book). They are part of a mutual defense leauge, and Silverymoon has nothing to fear from any retaliatory measures on the part of the orcs...since less than 5% of the Orc horde them will be able to get within 3,000ft of the cities walls, and even those will be easily slain by the wall archers and the spellguard. Alustriel could bring death to Obould in a single suprise round if she wanted to....hell, Alustriel could kill him in MELEE combat without casting a single spell.... :rolleyes:
Paix 11-17-06, 06:02 PM	I have not had the time to read the entire trilogy but going by the infomation given to me by the two players that have, Alustriel has adopted a wait and see stance. She also made an appearance to help Nesme, which was besieged by trolls allied to Obould. I believe the last book, mentions that mages from her city are patrolling the temporary borders between Mithral Hall lands and Obould's new realm. I do not think there was some other contribution, but I may be wrong. I do not know how powerful she is, or if she could destroy Obould single-handedly but the novels focused on different protagonists. I suppose the same argument can be had for any novel or even plotline in gaming materials (e.g. published adventures); 'why doesn't X powerful character or creature do it'. But I fail to see the relevance of such a line of thought. Each has a different objective. The author tells a story with his chosen protagonists, myself to make a workable campaign with very different characters based on a plotline inspired by the particular novels.
Alurvelve 11-18-06, 07:49 PM	Ok just did some thinking on all this and going through the books as well since I plan on doing a campaign soon invlolving the events of the two swords trilogy, and I think the reason why Alustrial(sp?) did not step in is because she knew of the bigger events that were going to be going on. Like the Phaerimms escape and attack on Everska. I'm still trying to find exact dates and etc but it seems that this trilogy takes place real close to that time frame as the short story in the Realms of the elves about Drizzt and company takes place with winter coming in the year of 1371. And unless I am mistaken the Evereksa events happened that year as well? Poor Obould the guy gets this huge army together takes some land only to lose it cause someone freed some powerful creatures of a time long passed that take control of his people and lead them into slaughter lol. Then a year or two later flights of dragons happen, and another year or so another force comes with demons to take more of his people and lead them into slaughter. Wonder whats left of the 10,000+orcs after the Phaerimms and Sarya took some for thier armies and what amount got killed if any fomr the random flights of dragons in that region? Just food for thought.
Alurvelve 11-18-06, 07:57 PM	Ok heres a little info on what I plan to do with my campaign I am setting up. The pcs are going to start at 4th level and be from somewhere in the Silver Marches area of thier chooseing. I then work them into each others paths and let them discover this huge army of orcs. I plan to use Oboulds 8(well7 since one is dead) sons as the low end bosses for them to encounter first. Makeing Obould despise them all the more before they go up against him and his crew. Before they get to Obould I am haveing them face off against Profit and his trolls along with the Fiendish white dragon of Gertis that is in the evermoors still. Once that all is settled and Obould realizes that some powerful mages might come against him he looks to form anoher partnership seeing how Gerti left him high and dry and his drow companions are all gone. Here enters Nyphithys and she will introduce him to the Arcane Brotherhood who in turn can help himforge this great Kingdom of Orcs. This gives Obould access to some powerful spellcasters to help defend him agaisnt mages who might try for a quick assassination attempt. What do yall think so far?
Alurvelve 11-18-06, 08:10 PM	Ok got some dates more like years set up just throwing these out here to make sure I got them right and am not forgetting anything. 1371: The events of the Two Swords take place. 1371-1372: Events of the ArchWizard series takes place. 1372: War of the spider queen takes place. 1373: Year of rogue dragons, flights of dragons. 1374: The last Mythal series. Am I missing anything else major that happened?
Paix 11-20-06, 07:36 PM	I am not aware of these other events taking place in the region, but they are very interesting. Perhaps a full campaign can be had there. I assume the Evereska events and Sarya(?) are detailed in novels?
Alurvelve 11-20-06, 11:42 PM	Yes the Evereska events are detailed in the Return of the Archwizards series, and the Sarya and her Fey'ri are detailed in the last Mythal series.