Fun Question About Trojan War Heroes [Archive] - Wizards Community

Fun Question About Trojan War Heroes [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
XhaoSuma
05-15-04, 06:30 PM Well, I just saw, you guessed it, Troy and that leads to my question. If one were to make up D&D stats for some of these heroes (as the did with the Greek Gods in D&Demi) what do you guys (and gals) think they would be. Some of the most famous of these are of course Ajax, Agamemnon, Menelaus, Paris, Hector, Odysseus, Nestor, Priam, Helen, and Achilles. Off the top of my head I'm thinking of the last of those as a Choatic Neutral 12Ftr/12Brb. In the FR I think his patron deity would probably be Tempus for obvious reasons. Since the Forgotten Realms are supposed to be connected to Earth, it seems like a fun idea to have some of these heroes come to Faerun. Just a campaign idea. Anyway, I'm gonna be making an Achilles soon so I'll post it here if I ever get enough free time to finish him.

-XhaoSuma, Lord Mage of Yawdem
Heron_Marked_Blade
05-16-04, 12:29 AM I haven't seen the movie, but from my readings of the Illiad, I'd give the following characters levels in the following classes (more for character traits than any identifiable D&D class abilities):

Paris = Bard (pansy seducer that he is :P)
Hector = Paladin possibly (diehard loyalty to his cause, seems lawful good)
Odysseus = some levels in Rogue, probably Rogue/Fighter (he's the trickiest one)
Helen = follower of Sune (dunno a character class that would fit her...)
Achilles = Fighter/Barbarian would work on this one (rage, combat beast)
Agamemnon/Menelaus/Ajax = Fighters (with Leadership)
Nestor = some Expert/Wizard (Diviner) levels for the Knowledge skills
Priam = Expert
Patroclus (was he in the movie?) = Fighter
Cassandra (was she in the movie?) = Cleric with the Fate domain
The Simbul
05-16-04, 02:29 AM With regard to historical figures, I would stick to variants on the NPC classes (Adept, Aristocrat, Commoner, Expert, Warrior, etc), rather than D&D core classes, since D&D characters are just too "superhuman" IMO. The Trojan War is more histrorical than Mythological, even though Mythology is intristically tied into it (for propaganda purposes of course, after all menelaus wouldnt want the world to think Helen went with Paris of her own free-will.....oh Heavens no...i simply had to be Aprodite's foul meddling.).

P.S. BigSis is most likely going to move this thread, although I cant imagine where it would fit.
Taelohn
05-16-04, 02:42 AM I remember seeing someone write up stats for a few such characters... here. (http://community.dicefreaks.com/index.php?name=PNphpBB2&file=viewtopic&t=1253&start=0)
XhaoSuma
05-16-04, 10:21 AM Thanks Taelohn. Heron-Patroclus is indeed in the movie, although Cassandra's part (the whole premonition thing) isn't really shown. I too have read the Illiad and I am in the process of reading The Odyssey and your character assesments all seem to make sense. As far as Helen, I would put her as an Aristocrat seeing as how she became married to Menelaus at a young age. I also might give her one or two levels of Cleric (maybe of Sune) as she has a few unnatural powers (for example, she concocts a potion in The Odyssey with sleeping properties, I think).
XhaoSuma
05-16-04, 10:45 AM Wow! Now I swear I am telling the truth, but the Achilles over the link you provided is (level wise-24 and alignment wise-CN) exactly what I was thinking. Great minds do think alike (right...). If we use Achilles as a point of reference at level 24, I would put Odysseus at 20 (at the end of the Trojan War), and Hector at about 22 (he did give Achilles a bit of a challenge).

-XhaoSuma
Mirtek
05-16-04, 03:49 PM Well, given the original legend, from which many has been left out in the movie, at least some of the major heroes should have divine rank 0 in D&D.
Forsaken_Rocker
05-17-04, 10:48 PM -side comment (dont kill me bigsis) TROY RULES

otherwise
Achillies (and no i can't spell worth crap) more fighter than barb. but yeah fit/brb would be right
Paris- bard/ranger, (he was awfuly good with the bow in the movie... not to great in the "Illiad" though)
Hector- Fighter/Palidan more fighter.
Odysees- wouldent have to be a rogue to be tricksy, just fighter with high chr/wis/int
Ajax- barb maybe a couple fighter
ClobberinTime
05-17-04, 11:17 PM It depends on if you are writing up the movie or the epic poem. some chars are portrayed the same some different. In the poem they are much more super human.

Most of the chars agamemnon, menelaus, ajax are aristocrat/fighters at around 12th to 14th level. Alignments in order LE(n), LN, N

I agree with the rogue-fighter for odyssius. 4/14, with high high int and wis.

From the poem-

achilles doesnt have to be that much of a higher level, but he does have a template with dr - 10/magic in a world without magic weapons. High str, dex etc....I don't know about putting barb levels on an ancient greek, they wouldn't like to think of themselves that way. So Id just go with fighter. CN fits though, as does tempus. Id say fighter 18th level or so.

Priam and Paris- straight aristocrats at 12th-14th level with lots of diplomacy, and high charismas. Priam LG, Paris CG.

Hector as a paladin probably 18th also makes sense to me. You can't smite neutral chars descended from the gods.

To simulate the book, youd have to add something like fate points which show the gods favors or disfavors and what you can do depends on which god. Hence Paris' arrow suddenly being made magial and having the property of Achilles slaying.

Might make a cool d20 game with lots of fighters who get healed by their faith points, and sorcerers and many many godlings.
WizO_BigSister
05-18-04, 07:56 AM Originally posted by Forsaken_Rocker
-side comment (dont kill me bigsis) TROY RULES

*Deals 20 points of subdual damage to Rocker with her trusty cosh* ;)

One important issue is that these are Bronze Age chanracters. Their weapons and armour are considerably softer than iron or steel. Any ideas of how to take this into account when writing up their equipment?
Fredegar The White
05-18-04, 08:09 AM Since both attacker and defender would use bronze weapons then no penalty shold be added BUT if one has an iron weapon and faces a bronze shield and rolls a critical have the effects of Sunder in the attack additional to the damage to the player. Or maybe lower damage of a bronze weapon against an iron shield/armour.
ClobberinTime
05-18-04, 01:03 PM The armor doesn't wear out so quickly but bronze is surprisingly soft. Bronze swords will actualy bend after hitting bone time after time. This is one reason why the spear was the weapon of choice. Plus the swords were almost always stabbing weapons just like the roman gladius.

The acs would be lower though because alot of that would be in relation to how much better the metal armors are than leather. Leather armor would be much more effective against bronze weapons. Also in d+d we aren't always just fighting each other, taking on a dragon with bronze weapons would be a nightmare.

On this note- throw Hercules, Achilles, Perseus etc... into the FR, and Chondath really will start to resemble ancient greece, because it will be ruled by them.
Fredegar The White
05-18-04, 01:42 PM Mycenean swords were not piercing weapons this is indicated primarily from their size. Thier size resembled later Gaulic swords and longswords. The charioteers (Epetes) that fought with a spear and a sword to cut opponents down used swords of overall length up to 1,10m(3ft). The gladius was shorter 60-70cm(2ft). The spear was the weapon of choice for the Phalanx.
ClobberinTime
05-18-04, 02:45 PM You might be right about the swords, but the phalanax isnt even developed until 400-300 bc, in the iron age. The bronze age is like 1500 to 700 bc or so. At that point the standard Greek soldier uses two types of spears- One longer like around 6 feet and a shorter one around like 4 feet or so, the second one being used like a javelin. Also we need to be clear on who we are talking about the nobility or the commoners. swords being more common obviously with the nobles.

Anyways, the swords might bend less if they were used for slashing
Fredegar The White
05-18-04, 02:58 PM You are reffering to the Macedonian Phalanx which is the most famous. Myceneans first used the phalanx as a formation and used to be armed with javelins too. They charged threw their javelins and advanced with their large shield toward the enemy breaking their formation.

Javelin throwers later became a separate unit called Peltastes when the Hoplite was fully developed.

But since we are getting a bit off topic (great discussion though:D ) i have another Fun Question about the Trojan war!

Why did the Greeks make a Horse to give to the Trojans?
(i haven't seen the movie so the answer may be in there! If it is don't bash me!please :( )
Heron_Marked_Blade
05-18-04, 03:17 PM Originally posted by Fredegar The White
Why did the Greeks make a Horse to give to the Trojans? Odysseus (assisted by Athena) came up with the plan. The Trojans thought it was a gift to Athena, and in their great glee that the Greeks had sailed home, decided to bring the "offering" into the city as a trophy.
Fredegar The White
05-18-04, 03:22 PM The Greeks built the horse because Poseidon (the patron deity of Troy) had created the horse according to myth. That's why the Trojans took it as a gift. Remember Odesseus was condemned to wander the seas for 10 years because he let the Greeks destroy the great temple of Poseidon inside the city.

Just replace Athena with Poseidon and you got it! :)
Forsaken_Rocker
05-18-04, 08:56 PM i just got coshed, lucky thing i got my potions!!
*drink drink drink* "akk it's poison, i was gonna slay the red dragon with this stuff" *plop*
Reles Villian
05-19-04, 02:43 AM As for Greek legends, the hecatoncheires (hundered handed horror) is listed in the Epic book, which comes from Greek Mythology. It was created by Gaia and Uranus, similar to how the creation of the hundered horror in the epic book came into being. Anyways.....

I would tend to think Achilles as more of a Rouge/Fighter, Ajax as a Fighter/Barb, and Hector as Paladin/Fighter. I would give Achillies epic armor, since his armor was forged by Hephestaus the greek god of blacksmiths.
Desies
05-19-04, 06:30 PM couple of things:
1 the weapons and armor of the bronze age can be carried over using rules from Arms & Equipment

2 The gladius was a piercing weapon only, to be used in conjunction with a tower shield

3 Further more keep in mind that as far as the Epic is concerned Achilies has got to have some kind of Divine Rank.
Heron_Marked_Blade
05-19-04, 08:51 PM Originally posted by Fredegar The White
The Greeks built the horse because Poseidon (the patron deity of Troy) had created the horse according to myth. That's why the Trojans took it as a gift. Remember Odesseus was condemned to wander the seas for 10 years because he let the Greeks destroy the great temple of Poseidon inside the city.

Just replace Athena with Poseidon and you got it! :) Ack! I meant to say "The Trojans thought it was a gift from the Greeks to Poseidon to grant them a safe trip home, and in their great glee ... [etc., etc.]." That's an example of my brain and fingers operating on different planes of existence....
Mirtek
05-20-04, 11:58 AM Originally posted by ClobberinTime
To simulate the book, youd have to add something like fate points which show the gods favors or disfavors and what you can do depends on which god. Hence Paris' arrow suddenly being made magial and having the property of Achilles slaying. I would make Achilles divine rank 0. This would, among other things, give him DR 10/epic.

To explain Paris' point blank shoot I would say that Apollo used a miracle to turn Paris' arrow into a +6 death arrow for one shoot, as the divine immunity to death effects only comes with dvr 1+ (if I recall correctly),

Thus we have a nice solution to recreate this situation with D&D rules.
primemover003
05-20-04, 09:40 PM Too bad in the movie the Trojan's patron was Apollo... :confused:
Aurotuli
05-21-04, 12:06 AM IIRC in the Iiliad it lists (among the several temples in the city of troy) a major temple to apollo. He did have a nice temple there, but so did several other deities.
Mirtek
05-21-04, 08:08 AM Originally posted by primemover003
Too bad in the movie the Trojan's patron was Apollo... :confused: And Paris was a trojan and Achilles was a greek. So where's the confusion?
ClobberinTime
05-21-04, 10:13 AM Troys patron was Apollo, and the greeks loved and followed Athena. The FR gods should be more like those in the Iliad, emotionally unstable and vengeful, and thats just the good ones.
ElGrecoETAC
05-26-04, 11:36 AM People are mistaking the "wrath of Achilles" with a Barbarian's rage, and it's definitely not the same.

Achilles is taciturn, moody, and often arrogant--a likely result of being the son of a demigoddess. Throughout the Iliad, his character shifts depending on influences from others. While Agamemnon persists on pettiness and jealousy, Achilles is willing to let the Achaeans suffer at the hands of the Trojans for the sake of pride. When noble Priam visits him to appeal for his so, Achilles feels shamed for his actions.

As a youth, he is trained in the arts, religion, hunting, and ways of war by several heroes and by the great Centaur Chyron (if I remember correctly). His mother, Thetis, depending on the variation of myth, either suspends him over holy flames or the River Styx, making him invulnerable to mortal weapons--except for the heel.

Achilles, IMHO, would be a very high level, even Epic, Fighter with maybe a level or two of Ranger (he grew up with Centaurs in the wilds). He would also possess a variety of skills showing his well-rounded education. His attributes would be remarkably high, with the exception of his Wisdom. I agree that Divine Rank 0 is a good idea, especially where his invulnerability is concerned. Prior to his battle with Hector, Thetis brings him weapons, armor, and shield forged by Hephaestus himself, as his own arms and armor were plundered by Hector when he bested Patroclus. Divine arms and armor? Ouch! Chaotic Neutral with good leanings.

Hector should be a high level Fighter with a few levels in one of the "strategist" type prestige classes. I don't see him as Epic though (maybe near-Epic). As brave as "the tamer of horses" is, in the poem he is fiercely overmatched by Achilles, and Ajax of Telamon almost does him in before Apollo bails him out of trouble. He should have rather high attributes himself, with none lower than his (still rather high) Intelligence, of say, 14-15. Lawful Good.

Paris should have a few levels of Ranger, with the rest of his progression splitting between Aristocrat and Fighter. Contrary to popular opinion, he's not a coward--he's just not a great hero, having reached his zenith as an enemy of bandits and marauders prior to realizing his true heritage. He was also called Alexandros by the people of Troy prior to his coronation, which means "Savior of Men". He'd have a rather high Charisma, with above-average to high attributes across the rest of the board. Neutral, with good leanings.

Agamemnon would be best interpreted as a Fighter/Aristocrat with levels in the low teens. His Wisdom wouldn't be all that, and his Charisma would be enough to get him by but not spectacular. The rest of his attributes should be above average to somewhat high. Neutral with possible evil leanings? He seems more rash than anything else, and is repentant when his errors are pointed out.

Menelaos would strongly mirror his brother, but with a more benevolent demeanor, higher physical attributes and charisma, but only average mental attributes. He defeats Paris in the poem as well, but is clearly not a match for Hector. I see him as Chaotic Good.

Odysseus I see as a Rogue/Fighter with levels in the mid-teens. All his attributes should be moderately high, especially his Intelligence and Charisma. He is especially good with a bow, and is mentioned as the Achaeans' top archer (after Philoctetes, who wields the bow of Heracles). Neutral Good and very tricky.

Nestor is an old man, a Fighter whose physical prowess is now gone, and a capable strategist (levels in the low double digits). He is renowned for his Wisdom (very high) and has a soothing Charisma. He is honorable, fair, and righteous. Lawful Good.
ClobberinTime
05-26-04, 11:49 AM This brings me to a point, Notice both sides are good and can't get along (i guess thats why its a tragedy). There should be more good-good conflict in FR.
Graz'zt, Prince of Shadow
05-27-04, 12:18 PM This brings me to a point, Notice both sides are good and can't get along (i guess thats why its a tragedy).

Actually, what makes it a tragedy is the fact that both sides are trapped by the whims of the gods. Achilles' 'long boring life/short glorious life' prophecy, the golden apple and the machinations of Aphrodite, Athena, and Hera, the unheeded prophecies of Cassandra...neither side really had a choice. Which is why I'm a little hesitant to see Troy, as it cuts all the supernatural out. It'd be like Macbeth without the witches or Hamlet without the ghost.

Fredegar: I thought the reason for the wanderings of Odysseus was the fact that he blinded Poseidon's son (the cyclops).
ElGrecoETAC
05-27-04, 05:45 PM Graz'zt:

Well, even in the epic poem there were clear-cut villains. The theme of ambition and power-hunger aside, Agamemnon is about as close as you get to a villain in the Iliad, with Paris being equally unsympathetic, if not as insidious.

On the second point, true and false.

Odysseus at first gets the business from Poseidon because--following the fall of Troy--he brags of his exploits. To make a long story short, Poseidon shows up and disagrees. Odysseus is rude to him, and is thrown into a long voyage due to *bad weather*.

Eventually, he arrives at the island of the Cyclops, and there he makes a bad situation worse by blinding Polyphemos, who just happens to be... a SON OF POSEIDON. ;)
Graz'zt, Prince of Shadow
05-28-04, 03:11 AM Paris being equally unsympathetic, if not as insidious.

It's been a while since I read the Illiad, but I don't remember Paris doing anything that the gods, specifically Aphrodite and Apollo, didn't manipulate him into doing. Maybe he would have made off with Helen without deific intervention, but having the 'okay' of the goddess of love will do a lot for a man's confidence.

Eventually, he arrives at the island of the Cyclops, and there he makes a bad situation worse by blinding Polyphemos, who just happens to be... a SON OF POSEIDON.

Poor guy just can't catch a break... ;)
WizO_BigSister
05-28-04, 08:29 AM OK this thread has drifted way off the original topic of treating the characters in the Trojan wars as D&D characters, and more specifically FR characters.

*click*

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
XhaoSuma 05-15-04, 06:30 PM	Well, I just saw, you guessed it, Troy and that leads to my question. If one were to make up D&D stats for some of these heroes (as the did with the Greek Gods in D&Demi) what do you guys (and gals) think they would be. Some of the most famous of these are of course Ajax, Agamemnon, Menelaus, Paris, Hector, Odysseus, Nestor, Priam, Helen, and Achilles. Off the top of my head I'm thinking of the last of those as a Choatic Neutral 12Ftr/12Brb. In the FR I think his patron deity would probably be Tempus for obvious reasons. Since the Forgotten Realms are supposed to be connected to Earth, it seems like a fun idea to have some of these heroes come to Faerun. Just a campaign idea. Anyway, I'm gonna be making an Achilles soon so I'll post it here if I ever get enough free time to finish him. -XhaoSuma, Lord Mage of Yawdem
Heron_Marked_Blade 05-16-04, 12:29 AM	I haven't seen the movie, but from my readings of the Illiad, I'd give the following characters levels in the following classes (more for character traits than any identifiable D&D class abilities): Paris = Bard (pansy seducer that he is :P) Hector = Paladin possibly (diehard loyalty to his cause, seems lawful good) Odysseus = some levels in Rogue, probably Rogue/Fighter (he's the trickiest one) Helen = follower of Sune (dunno a character class that would fit her...) Achilles = Fighter/Barbarian would work on this one (rage, combat beast) Agamemnon/Menelaus/Ajax = Fighters (with Leadership) Nestor = some Expert/Wizard (Diviner) levels for the Knowledge skills Priam = Expert Patroclus (was he in the movie?) = Fighter Cassandra (was she in the movie?) = Cleric with the Fate domain
The Simbul 05-16-04, 02:29 AM	With regard to historical figures, I would stick to variants on the NPC classes (Adept, Aristocrat, Commoner, Expert, Warrior, etc), rather than D&D core classes, since D&D characters are just too "superhuman" IMO. The Trojan War is more histrorical than Mythological, even though Mythology is intristically tied into it (for propaganda purposes of course, after all menelaus wouldnt want the world to think Helen went with Paris of her own free-will.....oh Heavens no...i simply had to be Aprodite's foul meddling.). P.S. BigSis is most likely going to move this thread, although I cant imagine where it would fit.
Taelohn 05-16-04, 02:42 AM	I remember seeing someone write up stats for a few such characters... here. (http://community.dicefreaks.com/index.php?name=PNphpBB2&file=viewtopic&t=1253&start=0)
XhaoSuma 05-16-04, 10:21 AM	Thanks Taelohn. Heron-Patroclus is indeed in the movie, although Cassandra's part (the whole premonition thing) isn't really shown. I too have read the Illiad and I am in the process of reading The Odyssey and your character assesments all seem to make sense. As far as Helen, I would put her as an Aristocrat seeing as how she became married to Menelaus at a young age. I also might give her one or two levels of Cleric (maybe of Sune) as she has a few unnatural powers (for example, she concocts a potion in The Odyssey with sleeping properties, I think).
XhaoSuma 05-16-04, 10:45 AM	Wow! Now I swear I am telling the truth, but the Achilles over the link you provided is (level wise-24 and alignment wise-CN) exactly what I was thinking. Great minds do think alike (right...). If we use Achilles as a point of reference at level 24, I would put Odysseus at 20 (at the end of the Trojan War), and Hector at about 22 (he did give Achilles a bit of a challenge). -XhaoSuma
Mirtek 05-16-04, 03:49 PM	Well, given the original legend, from which many has been left out in the movie, at least some of the major heroes should have divine rank 0 in D&D.
Forsaken_Rocker 05-17-04, 10:48 PM	-side comment (dont kill me bigsis) TROY RULES otherwise Achillies (and no i can't spell worth crap) more fighter than barb. but yeah fit/brb would be right Paris- bard/ranger, (he was awfuly good with the bow in the movie... not to great in the "Illiad" though) Hector- Fighter/Palidan more fighter. Odysees- wouldent have to be a rogue to be tricksy, just fighter with high chr/wis/int Ajax- barb maybe a couple fighter
ClobberinTime 05-17-04, 11:17 PM	It depends on if you are writing up the movie or the epic poem. some chars are portrayed the same some different. In the poem they are much more super human. Most of the chars agamemnon, menelaus, ajax are aristocrat/fighters at around 12th to 14th level. Alignments in order LE(n), LN, N I agree with the rogue-fighter for odyssius. 4/14, with high high int and wis. From the poem- achilles doesnt have to be that much of a higher level, but he does have a template with dr - 10/magic in a world without magic weapons. High str, dex etc....I don't know about putting barb levels on an ancient greek, they wouldn't like to think of themselves that way. So Id just go with fighter. CN fits though, as does tempus. Id say fighter 18th level or so. Priam and Paris- straight aristocrats at 12th-14th level with lots of diplomacy, and high charismas. Priam LG, Paris CG. Hector as a paladin probably 18th also makes sense to me. You can't smite neutral chars descended from the gods. To simulate the book, youd have to add something like fate points which show the gods favors or disfavors and what you can do depends on which god. Hence Paris' arrow suddenly being made magial and having the property of Achilles slaying. Might make a cool d20 game with lots of fighters who get healed by their faith points, and sorcerers and many many godlings.
WizO_BigSister 05-18-04, 07:56 AM	Originally posted by Forsaken_Rocker -side comment (dont kill me bigsis) TROY RULES Deals 20 points of subdual damage to Rocker with her trusty cosh ;) One important issue is that these are Bronze Age chanracters. Their weapons and armour are considerably softer than iron or steel. Any ideas of how to take this into account when writing up their equipment?
Fredegar The White 05-18-04, 08:09 AM	Since both attacker and defender would use bronze weapons then no penalty shold be added BUT if one has an iron weapon and faces a bronze shield and rolls a critical have the effects of Sunder in the attack additional to the damage to the player. Or maybe lower damage of a bronze weapon against an iron shield/armour.
ClobberinTime 05-18-04, 01:03 PM	The armor doesn't wear out so quickly but bronze is surprisingly soft. Bronze swords will actualy bend after hitting bone time after time. This is one reason why the spear was the weapon of choice. Plus the swords were almost always stabbing weapons just like the roman gladius. The acs would be lower though because alot of that would be in relation to how much better the metal armors are than leather. Leather armor would be much more effective against bronze weapons. Also in d+d we aren't always just fighting each other, taking on a dragon with bronze weapons would be a nightmare. On this note- throw Hercules, Achilles, Perseus etc... into the FR, and Chondath really will start to resemble ancient greece, because it will be ruled by them.
Fredegar The White 05-18-04, 01:42 PM	Mycenean swords were not piercing weapons this is indicated primarily from their size. Thier size resembled later Gaulic swords and longswords. The charioteers (Epetes) that fought with a spear and a sword to cut opponents down used swords of overall length up to 1,10m(3ft). The gladius was shorter 60-70cm(2ft). The spear was the weapon of choice for the Phalanx.
ClobberinTime 05-18-04, 02:45 PM	You might be right about the swords, but the phalanax isnt even developed until 400-300 bc, in the iron age. The bronze age is like 1500 to 700 bc or so. At that point the standard Greek soldier uses two types of spears- One longer like around 6 feet and a shorter one around like 4 feet or so, the second one being used like a javelin. Also we need to be clear on who we are talking about the nobility or the commoners. swords being more common obviously with the nobles. Anyways, the swords might bend less if they were used for slashing
Fredegar The White 05-18-04, 02:58 PM	You are reffering to the Macedonian Phalanx which is the most famous. Myceneans first used the phalanx as a formation and used to be armed with javelins too. They charged threw their javelins and advanced with their large shield toward the enemy breaking their formation. Javelin throwers later became a separate unit called Peltastes when the Hoplite was fully developed. But since we are getting a bit off topic (great discussion though:D ) i have another Fun Question about the Trojan war! Why did the Greeks make a Horse to give to the Trojans? (i haven't seen the movie so the answer may be in there! If it is don't bash me!please :( )
Heron_Marked_Blade 05-18-04, 03:17 PM	Originally posted by Fredegar The White Why did the Greeks make a Horse to give to the Trojans? Odysseus (assisted by Athena) came up with the plan. The Trojans thought it was a gift to Athena, and in their great glee that the Greeks had sailed home, decided to bring the "offering" into the city as a trophy.
Fredegar The White 05-18-04, 03:22 PM	The Greeks built the horse because Poseidon (the patron deity of Troy) had created the horse according to myth. That's why the Trojans took it as a gift. Remember Odesseus was condemned to wander the seas for 10 years because he let the Greeks destroy the great temple of Poseidon inside the city. Just replace Athena with Poseidon and you got it! :)
Forsaken_Rocker 05-18-04, 08:56 PM	i just got coshed, lucky thing i got my potions!! drink drink drink "akk it's poison, i was gonna slay the red dragon with this stuff" plop
Reles Villian 05-19-04, 02:43 AM	As for Greek legends, the hecatoncheires (hundered handed horror) is listed in the Epic book, which comes from Greek Mythology. It was created by Gaia and Uranus, similar to how the creation of the hundered horror in the epic book came into being. Anyways..... I would tend to think Achilles as more of a Rouge/Fighter, Ajax as a Fighter/Barb, and Hector as Paladin/Fighter. I would give Achillies epic armor, since his armor was forged by Hephestaus the greek god of blacksmiths.
Desies 05-19-04, 06:30 PM	couple of things: 1 the weapons and armor of the bronze age can be carried over using rules from Arms & Equipment 2 The gladius was a piercing weapon only, to be used in conjunction with a tower shield 3 Further more keep in mind that as far as the Epic is concerned Achilies has got to have some kind of Divine Rank.
Heron_Marked_Blade 05-19-04, 08:51 PM	Originally posted by Fredegar The White The Greeks built the horse because Poseidon (the patron deity of Troy) had created the horse according to myth. That's why the Trojans took it as a gift. Remember Odesseus was condemned to wander the seas for 10 years because he let the Greeks destroy the great temple of Poseidon inside the city. Just replace Athena with Poseidon and you got it! :) Ack! I meant to say "The Trojans thought it was a gift from the Greeks to Poseidon to grant them a safe trip home, and in their great glee ... [etc., etc.]." That's an example of my brain and fingers operating on different planes of existence....
Mirtek 05-20-04, 11:58 AM	Originally posted by ClobberinTime To simulate the book, youd have to add something like fate points which show the gods favors or disfavors and what you can do depends on which god. Hence Paris' arrow suddenly being made magial and having the property of Achilles slaying. I would make Achilles divine rank 0. This would, among other things, give him DR 10/epic. To explain Paris' point blank shoot I would say that Apollo used a miracle to turn Paris' arrow into a +6 death arrow for one shoot, as the divine immunity to death effects only comes with dvr 1+ (if I recall correctly), Thus we have a nice solution to recreate this situation with D&D rules.
primemover003 05-20-04, 09:40 PM	Too bad in the movie the Trojan's patron was Apollo... :confused:
Aurotuli 05-21-04, 12:06 AM	IIRC in the Iiliad it lists (among the several temples in the city of troy) a major temple to apollo. He did have a nice temple there, but so did several other deities.
Mirtek 05-21-04, 08:08 AM	Originally posted by primemover003 Too bad in the movie the Trojan's patron was Apollo... :confused: And Paris was a trojan and Achilles was a greek. So where's the confusion?
ClobberinTime 05-21-04, 10:13 AM	Troys patron was Apollo, and the greeks loved and followed Athena. The FR gods should be more like those in the Iliad, emotionally unstable and vengeful, and thats just the good ones.
ElGrecoETAC 05-26-04, 11:36 AM	People are mistaking the "wrath of Achilles" with a Barbarian's rage, and it's definitely not the same. Achilles is taciturn, moody, and often arrogant--a likely result of being the son of a demigoddess. Throughout the Iliad, his character shifts depending on influences from others. While Agamemnon persists on pettiness and jealousy, Achilles is willing to let the Achaeans suffer at the hands of the Trojans for the sake of pride. When noble Priam visits him to appeal for his so, Achilles feels shamed for his actions. As a youth, he is trained in the arts, religion, hunting, and ways of war by several heroes and by the great Centaur Chyron (if I remember correctly). His mother, Thetis, depending on the variation of myth, either suspends him over holy flames or the River Styx, making him invulnerable to mortal weapons--except for the heel. Achilles, IMHO, would be a very high level, even Epic, Fighter with maybe a level or two of Ranger (he grew up with Centaurs in the wilds). He would also possess a variety of skills showing his well-rounded education. His attributes would be remarkably high, with the exception of his Wisdom. I agree that Divine Rank 0 is a good idea, especially where his invulnerability is concerned. Prior to his battle with Hector, Thetis brings him weapons, armor, and shield forged by Hephaestus himself, as his own arms and armor were plundered by Hector when he bested Patroclus. Divine arms and armor? Ouch! Chaotic Neutral with good leanings. Hector should be a high level Fighter with a few levels in one of the "strategist" type prestige classes. I don't see him as Epic though (maybe near-Epic). As brave as "the tamer of horses" is, in the poem he is fiercely overmatched by Achilles, and Ajax of Telamon almost does him in before Apollo bails him out of trouble. He should have rather high attributes himself, with none lower than his (still rather high) Intelligence, of say, 14-15. Lawful Good. Paris should have a few levels of Ranger, with the rest of his progression splitting between Aristocrat and Fighter. Contrary to popular opinion, he's not a coward--he's just not a great hero, having reached his zenith as an enemy of bandits and marauders prior to realizing his true heritage. He was also called Alexandros by the people of Troy prior to his coronation, which means "Savior of Men". He'd have a rather high Charisma, with above-average to high attributes across the rest of the board. Neutral, with good leanings. Agamemnon would be best interpreted as a Fighter/Aristocrat with levels in the low teens. His Wisdom wouldn't be all that, and his Charisma would be enough to get him by but not spectacular. The rest of his attributes should be above average to somewhat high. Neutral with possible evil leanings? He seems more rash than anything else, and is repentant when his errors are pointed out. Menelaos would strongly mirror his brother, but with a more benevolent demeanor, higher physical attributes and charisma, but only average mental attributes. He defeats Paris in the poem as well, but is clearly not a match for Hector. I see him as Chaotic Good. Odysseus I see as a Rogue/Fighter with levels in the mid-teens. All his attributes should be moderately high, especially his Intelligence and Charisma. He is especially good with a bow, and is mentioned as the Achaeans' top archer (after Philoctetes, who wields the bow of Heracles). Neutral Good and very tricky. Nestor is an old man, a Fighter whose physical prowess is now gone, and a capable strategist (levels in the low double digits). He is renowned for his Wisdom (very high) and has a soothing Charisma. He is honorable, fair, and righteous. Lawful Good.
ClobberinTime 05-26-04, 11:49 AM	This brings me to a point, Notice both sides are good and can't get along (i guess thats why its a tragedy). There should be more good-good conflict in FR.
Graz'zt, Prince of Shadow 05-27-04, 12:18 PM	This brings me to a point, Notice both sides are good and can't get along (i guess thats why its a tragedy). Actually, what makes it a tragedy is the fact that both sides are trapped by the whims of the gods. Achilles' 'long boring life/short glorious life' prophecy, the golden apple and the machinations of Aphrodite, Athena, and Hera, the unheeded prophecies of Cassandra...neither side really had a choice. Which is why I'm a little hesitant to see Troy, as it cuts all the supernatural out. It'd be like Macbeth without the witches or Hamlet without the ghost. Fredegar: I thought the reason for the wanderings of Odysseus was the fact that he blinded Poseidon's son (the cyclops).
ElGrecoETAC 05-27-04, 05:45 PM	Graz'zt: Well, even in the epic poem there were clear-cut villains. The theme of ambition and power-hunger aside, Agamemnon is about as close as you get to a villain in the Iliad, with Paris being equally unsympathetic, if not as insidious. On the second point, true and false. Odysseus at first gets the business from Poseidon because--following the fall of Troy--he brags of his exploits. To make a long story short, Poseidon shows up and disagrees. Odysseus is rude to him, and is thrown into a long voyage due to bad weather. Eventually, he arrives at the island of the Cyclops, and there he makes a bad situation worse by blinding Polyphemos, who just happens to be... a SON OF POSEIDON. ;)
Graz'zt, Prince of Shadow 05-28-04, 03:11 AM	Paris being equally unsympathetic, if not as insidious. It's been a while since I read the Illiad, but I don't remember Paris doing anything that the gods, specifically Aphrodite and Apollo, didn't manipulate him into doing. Maybe he would have made off with Helen without deific intervention, but having the 'okay' of the goddess of love will do a lot for a man's confidence. Eventually, he arrives at the island of the Cyclops, and there he makes a bad situation worse by blinding Polyphemos, who just happens to be... a SON OF POSEIDON. Poor guy just can't catch a break... ;)
WizO_BigSister 05-28-04, 08:29 AM	OK this thread has drifted way off the original topic of treating the characters in the Trojan wars as D&D characters, and more specifically FR characters. click