Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Yokinobu 09-08-03, 01:24 AM	Like many other people, I've been unsatisfied with the rules given for genasi. Sean Reynolds provided an alternative race known as Elemarns, but I felt that they didn't seem to have a very adequate abilities and they didn't carry the authority of official rules. So I'll post here the rules I think would be the most appropriate for genasi, who didn't have quite the fair chance that aasimar and tieflings did. First of all, I think that all of the genasi having a +1 racial bonus on saving throws against air/earth/fire/water spells and effects was a weak attempt to provide some whit of protection against something their bloodline might associate with. Come on guys, there are much better ways to give genasi advantages that seem appropriate to there corresponding element. Also, the Clerical Focus is an interesting aspect, but it is still clearly a disadvantage. As if the genasi needed any more without it. Okay, well let me start with the first genasi. Air Genasi I think the bonus on saving throws against air effects and the ability to levitate should be replaced with actual flight, and I'll tell you why. In races of Faerun, under the Avariel Elf section, where it reads about their relations with other races, I noticed this part: They get along well with air genasi as well, although they are often frustrated with the genasi's ambivalence and disinterest in good and evil. Avariel relations with landbound races are not nearly as productive. To me that makes it seem as though air genasi are not a landbound race, and indeed they are. The consider themselves "children of the sky" and yet most will never get the chance to touch the sky. Instead they get a puny once-per-day levitate spell. Yeah. They might as well go climb a tree. For Christ's sake, if an air genasi's grandpa can fly perfectly at 60 ft. then at least let these guys get away with floating, maybe poorly at 30 ft. If nothing else, it needs to be made into a feat. The aasimar and the tieflings got that much with the Outsider Wings feat, and they don't even have the term "air" in there race's name. Since this post was so long, I'll talk about the other genasi in a different post, but I want someone's opinion on this one before that. I guess this post turned out to be more like a rant at the geniuses who concieved the genasi. No offense to any of the game designers who had a part in Races of Faerun or The Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting.
Casual J 09-08-03, 01:36 AM	I think the Air Genasi would be too powerful if given flight straight away. I guess if they could select the feat they would be no more powerful than the aasimar and the tieflings that grow wings.
Yokinobu 09-08-03, 01:55 AM	I disagree. I think if you took a fey'ri with a +2 ECL and subtracted it's Darkvision, it's Alter Self ability, it's four Demonic abilitiies, and it's +2 racial bonus on five different skills, then it would bump down to a +1 ECL creature, and still retain the ability of flight. Thanks for your opinion though.
twistedbutsane 09-08-03, 09:24 AM	Originally posted by Yokinobu The aasimar and the tieflings got that much with the Outsider Wings feat, and they don't even have the term "air" in there race's name. Where is this feat from? I so far only have the campaign setting. Is it races of Faerun? I believe that Flying should become available to Air Genasi and that each Genasi Race should have more in common with their elemental kin. Though I do find the Idea of achieving this state through Feats interesting (though there aren't many Free Feats for characters) Waay back in a dragon Mag when planescape had only been around for a while, they had options for Aasimar and Teiflings where you could buy traits for your PC, It was all skills and powers stuff though, I am not sure If Genasi were included (I think they were) but you could choose Tanar'ri Baatezu or Yugoloth bloodlines for your Tieflings granting appropriate immunities, give em wings or claws etc. It would be great if the same could happen for 3.5 D&D, Planetouched should be greatly varied.
Morka 09-08-03, 09:34 AM	Air Genasi are from the Elemental Plane of Air. At this place, there is almost nothing but air. There is some floating block of rock to build homes, a bit of fire to heat the area and some water bubble to drink. The main point is there is no gravity. So if you want to go from a floating rock to another, just think about it, and you are floating in the air. In their home plan, Air Genasi have no need of wings to "fly". My 2 stingers (silver pieces)
Masakado 09-08-03, 09:38 AM	Originally posted by Yokinobu I disagree. I think if you took a fey'ri with a +2 ECL and subtracted it's Darkvision, it's Alter Self ability, it's four Demonic abilitiies, and it's +2 racial bonus on five different skills, then it would bump down to a +1 ECL creature, and still retain the ability of flight. Thanks for your opinion though. Depending on the demonic ability you took, a Fey'ri can be bumped up to +3 ECL, so that's an apples to oranges argument, especially since Fey'ri need wings to fly and most pure Air Elementals do not. Wings are their own curse and reward. Air Genasi need a bit of tweaking, but I don't think they should be able to fly at will. The fact that they are Genasi, is supposed to mean that their elemental heritage is watered down after many generations. I don't think their heritage justifies broader, elemental-based supernatural abilities. Air Genasi do not need to breathe. That's a huge benefit in the early goings, so I think they are nearly fine the way they are. For all of it's strengths, a Fey'ri can still drown and an Air Genasi cannot. Air Genasi are also not necessarily natively from the Plane of Air. They are native outsiders whose ancestors were some type of being native to the Elemental Plane of Air (Djinni, etc.) Saying that Air Genasi are all from the Elemental Plane of Air is like saying that every single Tiefling is from the Nether planes, & that is inaccurate.
Yokinobu 09-08-03, 04:24 PM	Wings are their own curse and reward. This may be true for background, storyline, or cosmetic purposes, ect. But in the game of D&D if a creature can fly, it can fly. Only on certain cases would being able to fly without wings be better than having to fly with them. If an air genasi and a fey'ri could both fly poorly at 40 ft. than there is no gameplay difference. The fey'ri doesn't suffer any dissadvantages just because it has wings, so if you were to say that an Air Elemental not having to fly with wings has an advantage, that would not be necessarily true. A few exceptions to note are that an avariel needs 12 ft. to spread its wings, and a fey'ri only get's it's racial flight when in it's true form. However, I would say that the air genasi could only take advantage of it's racial flight in it's true form as well. Air genasi's Breathless ability doesn't make a whole lot of sense because I've never heard of Dijinn not needing to breathe. That's not to say all air genasi are descended from Dijinn, but that many of them are. I guess this could have been better settled if rules were provided for the half-Djinn from Calimshan. The fact that they are Genasi, is supposed to mean that their elemental heritage is watered down after many generations. That may be true if you consider many generations to be two (or more). The first genasi in a bloodline is the child of a half-Djinn, making it the grandchild of a Djinn. Besides, if they can't fly, then I don't think the books should have made it seem like they could, calling themsleves "inheritors of the sky, the wind, and the very air of the world", and placing them on decent terms with the avariel, who disdain all landbound races.
Otto the Bugbear 09-08-03, 04:46 PM	A while back, there was some discussion about this very topic over on another board. Most people agreed that the gensai were a bit... off... compared to some other races. Especially their special powers. A Man in Black wrote up some changes to the gensai, including changing their abilities, stat adjustments, and ECLs. Overall it's quite a good piece of work; worth looking at, using (in my case), or as a starting point for modifications of your own. You can find it here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=52384&highlight=gensai), about 3/4 the way down the page. Hope this is right up your alley. Cheers Otto :)
Masakado 09-08-03, 05:01 PM	Originally posted by Yokinobu This may be true for background, storyline, or cosmetic purposes, ect. But in the game of D&D if a creature can fly, it can fly. As you touched on, my "curse" was actually an allusion to being able to fly, as opposed to being able to fly well. Genasi don't have wings, so it's probably assumed that if they can fly, they will do so as their elemental counterparts: i.e. without wings & with the ability to turn on a dime at will. As a result, they will be able to fly remarkably better than Fey'ri, and should assume a hefty ECL penalty because of it Originally posted by Yokinobu Air genasi's Breathless ability doesn't make a whole lot of sense because I've never heard of Dijinn not needing to breathe. This is an apples to oranges allusion, as the true elemental heritage really doesn't matter. An Air Genasi descended from a Djinni does not have the reality altering abilities of the Djinni in their bloodline either. A Fire Genasi descended from an Efreet cannot grant a wish. Genasi have to be discussed in their own context. Originally posted by Yokinobu That's not to say all air genasi are descended from Dijinn, but that many of them are. I guess this could have been better settled if rules were provided for the half-Djinn from Calimshan. True on both accounts, but a Half-Djinni would draw much heftier ECL penalties than a mere Genasi would. Originally posted by Yokinobu Besides, if they can't fly, then I don't think the books should have made it seem like they could, calling themsleves "inheritors of the sky, the wind, and the very air of the world", and placing them on decent terms with the avariel, who disdain all landbound races. I think the text was an attempt at flavor, and little else. At any rate when someone "inherits" something, IMO, it is an eventual boon and not an immediate one. Through experience and the proper PrC's, feats, and what have you, Air Genasi can eventually inherit the skies of their namesake. Don't get me wrong, I agree that Genasi need a lot of work in order to make them a bit more logical (Why the Fire Genasi's favorite class isn't Sorcerer escapes me...), but I don't think the answer to fixing Genasi is to heap on abilities that boost the ECL beyond belief. To Otto the Bugbear My thanks for posting MiB's Genasi revisions. I was going to suggest them to Yokinobu. I'd either use these, or the elemental revisions at Sean K. Reynolds' website. http://www.seankreynolds.com
Yokinobu 09-08-03, 10:22 PM	Yeah, I liked MiB's revision of the genasi better than the Elemarns that Sean Reynolds cooked up. By the way, when I mentioned half-Djinn rules, I meant that based off of their statistics better air genasi rules could have been derived. Originally posted by Masakado At any rate when someone "inherits" something, IMO, it is an eventual boon and not an immediate one. Through experience and the proper PrC's, feats, and what have you, Air Genasi can eventually inherit the skies of their namesake. Yes, but they get no better chance than any other race at it, even less of a chance than races that fly, and they don't consider themselves "children of the sky". An air genasi would have no easier chance "inheriting" than a human would. In any case, I don't think any of the genasi should have charisma penalties. Tieflings have charisman penalties mostly because they have an aura of wrongness about them that they can't get rid of. Half-Orcs have charisma penalties mostly because they are like abominations, and are something different from every society. Likewise, Aasimar have an air of otherworldy magnatism that gives them their bonus. So I don't think mere personality flaws, which can always be changed, should judge the genasi's potency of sorcerous power. It already mentions in the FRCS that the people of Calimshan claim that they are powerful sorcerors because Efreet are mixed into many of their bloodlines. It seemed too convinient that all of the genasi, so different as they were, all happened to have Charisma penalties(as well as the same favored class).
Masakado 09-08-03, 11:46 PM	Originally posted by Yokinobu An air genasi would have no easier chance "inheriting" than a human would. Um, Air Genasi can at least levitate. They are not nearly as landlocked as a normal human. Feats like Improved Levitation and PrC's like the Windwalker (Shaundakul) can make an Air Genasi's affinity for their element even more pronounced. Originally posted by Yokinobu It already mentions in the FRCS that the people of Calimshan claim that they are powerful sorcerors because Efreet are mixed into many of their bloodlines. This only applies to those who've taken the Bloodline of Fire regional feat. Not every Calishite can trace his ancestry back to the Efreeti, although many would like to, or lie & say that they are decended from the Efreeti, when in reality they are not. Originally posted by Yokinobu It seemed too convinient that all of the genasi, so different as they were, all happened to have Charisma penalties(as well as the same favored class). Of course it was convenient. It was done fore ease of play. Originally posted by Yokinobu So I don't think mere personality flaws, which can always be changed, should judge the genasi's potency of sorcerous power. Races of Faerun delves into the psyche of the Genasi far better than the blurbs in the FRCS. The various descriptions of Genasi traits easily justifies the -2 CHA penalty. However, as I said before, Genasi need more tinkering, so what is justified is not necessarily what I feel is proper.
Gez 09-09-03, 04:22 AM	Being arrogant is not a mark of lack of strength of personality. The -2 Cha was a bad idea, because the Genasi concept screams to be used for sorcerer characters.
Yokinobu 09-09-03, 07:19 AM	Yep.
Masakado 09-09-03, 09:03 AM	Originally posted by Gez The -2 Cha was a bad idea, because the Genasi concept screams to be used for sorcerer characters. I whole heartedly agree, especially since the implication is that most Genasi are the decendants of genies. You'd think that there'd be no impediment to the progression of a Genasi to become as magically inclined as their ancestors, short of becoming a Wizard, which, IMO, is a tad strange. I could see Water Genasi favoring the Druid class, but Fire Genasi cry out to be Sorcerers.
Cunning Linguist 09-09-03, 10:11 AM	The fey'ri doesn't suffer any dissadvantages just because it has wings, I have a fay'ri in my group, and she cannot fly in tight spaces. She can't fly if there is less then 5 feet of free space on each side. (for her wings) and her size always increase when she folds out her wings, so her AC goes down. These are but a few of the restrictions I have put on flying with wings. Wings have huge disadvantages.
Yokinobu 09-09-03, 04:45 PM	Originally Posted by Masakado The various descriptions of Genasi traits easily justifies the -2 CHA penalty. How can that be the case when Masakado "whole heartedly" agrees that the Charisma penalty was a bad idea? Pardon me if I wrinkle my brow in confusion. So what if many of them are descended from genies but they have descriptions that would justify the Charisma penalty? It's like the penalty should be there but it shouldn't. Originally posted by Gez Being arrogant is not a mark of lack of strength of personality. I agree with THAT statement.
Masakado 09-09-03, 05:35 PM	Originally posted by Yokinobu How can that be the case when Masakado "whole heartedly" agrees that the Charisma penalty was a bad idea? Pardon me if I wrinkle my brow in confusion. I agree that it's a bad idea, but it's still easily justified by the flavor text in Races of Faerun which describe Genasi. Why is this such a difficult concept to understand? My personal feelings about rulings don't mean that I can't find game rules to support notions to the contrary. An attorney opposed to the Death Penalty doesn't suddenly become incapable of competantly prosecuting a Death Penalty case in a court of law, do they? ;)
Yokinobu 09-09-03, 11:35 PM	Forgive me, it seemed that Masakado failed to mention that the charisma penalty was a bad idea when responding to my post. But that still doesn't answer the question, was it or wasn't it a bad idea? If it was so easily justifiable, then they did nothing wrong in giving the penalty. So according to Masakado's argument, I conclude that the game designers of Races of Faerun should never have even written up the psychological interaction flaws of the genasi, and I believe that they were completely justified in doing so, in an honest attempt to add "flavor". So in a sense, they were darned if they did and darned if they didn't. Had they added the penalty, the would have had a problem with players and the fact that the races didn't live up to their +1 ECL. However, had they ommitted it, then the extreme personality flaws the genasi suffer wouldn't carry as much weight since they don't even take a penalty for it. Personally, I disagree with the latter. I think that despite the arrogancy and emotional distance and what not, their should not have been a penalty. The genasi tend to have these problems, but it's not a pre-requisite. The Sun Elves are condescending to all races besides surface elf sub-races, and the avariel look down upon those who can't fly, and they suffer no penalties. Is that fair? I don't think that the "flavor" added to the genasi in Races of Faerun "easily" justifies the penalty. It can be a difficult concept to understand when you seem to go lengths to complicate it.
Masakado 09-10-03, 09:33 AM	Originally posted by Yokinobu Forgive me, it seemed that Masakado failed to mention that the charisma penalty was a bad idea when responding to my post. No I didn't. I responded to Gez's post when I said that the CHA penalty was a bad idea. Originally posted by Yokinobu If it was so easily justifiable, then they did nothing wrong in giving the penalty. Rule wise, it isn't wrong because it's supported by the books. It's just a bad idea. There's a difference in the two concepts. Originally posted by Yokinobu So in a sense, they were darned if they did and darned if they didn't. Had they added the penalty, the would have had a problem with players and the fact that the races didn't live up to their +1 ECL. However, had they omitted it, then the extreme personality flaws the genasi suffer wouldn't carry as much weight since they don't even take a penalty for it. Personally, I disagree with the latter. The CHA penalty doesn't just represent arrogance. Genasi's all-consuming belief in their superiority is so ingrained that it affects other areas of their judgment. They are extremely impulsive, some (especially Fire Genasi) are prone to violence, and the like. For example, a Fire Genasi wizard would probably consider courses of action that no other sane wizard of another race would even dream of doing, like targeting a Fireball on himself in order to roast his opponants, and trust that his "superior elemental heritage" would allow him to survive such a tactic. This is reason for the -2 CHA penalty, which IMO, should either be a WIS or an INT penalty, but that's my opinion. Originally posted by Yokinobu The Sun Elves are condescending to all races besides surface elf sub-races, and the avariel look down upon those who can't fly, and they suffer no penalties. Is that fair? Yet most other races still look to the Elves as an elder race, and admire them for their mastery of magic, despite how the Elves treat them in kind. The Elvish mindest is not as pervasive as the Genasi mindset, & the CHA penalty reflects this. It doesn't reflect this accurately, IMO, but rules are rules, & I haven't heard wind of any difficulties from my friends who play spell-casting Genasi. They deal with the cards that they are dealt for wanting to play a spell-casting Genasi. Originally posted by Yokinobu I don't think that the "flavor" added to the genasi in Races of Faerun "easily" justifies the penalty. That's because you don't agree with the CHA penalty to begin with. I don't agree with the penalty either, but the reasons for the penalty are understandable given the fluff text, and are well documented. I've had no problems playing Genasi the way they are written, so I've never had the need to run house rule varients. Overcoming their shortfalls makes them more interesting to play, IMO. My wife plays a Fire Genasi Sorceress in our campaign. Sha'ura (the name of the PC) is nowhere near Min / Maxed, yet her unorthodox choice of feats & the Arcane Devotee PrC makes her an extremely effective PC despite the +1ECL and the initial CHA penalty. I've noticed that there is a trend to attempt to supercharge PC races you really like personally, & believe are getting the short end of things. Hence the ten billion uber revisions to Elf-related PrC's floating out there, as well as the never ending screaming about why the Mystran PrC, the Dweomerkeeper, is listed as "Human-only" despite the illustration that shows a Dweomerkeeper of either Elvish, or Half-Elvish, origin. Until there is formal eratta which revises Genasi, I'll continue to play them as written. Their various detriments do not adversely affect gameplay, IMO or IMC.