Post/Author/DateTime	Post
18DELTA 01-31-08, 11:08 AM	-George Krashos said this about the spellplague at candlekeep (http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=10427). Its on page 9 of the thread!!!:eek: Well here's the low down on the "spellplague" before it even was the "spellplague" from Ed himself. Given that the 100 year jump and the Abeir returning thingies are now in the public domain, this post isn't spoiling anything and I thought that the wider forum community might appreciate the insight. There are actually THREE references, all of which will really only be understandable "after the fact." One of them is the "Smashed the black star" curiosity that several scribes have been so fascinated by, and another is a CYCLOPEDIA heading (yes, just the heading). [Ed was referring to the "Abeir-Toril" heading] The third, "main" reference is on page 40 of the DM'S SOURCEBOOK, referring to Mellomir's claim of finding an "ancient" and "magical" treasure in the vicinity of the Haunted Halls. The dwarves vanishing over the years were fleeing the Realms through gates (portals, linking to other worlds / alternate Prime Material Planes) that are not in the Haunted Halls, but can be reached through the Halls (I think the maps I gave you at GenCon included the "Whisper's Crypt" level, yes?). The dwarves were departing to avoid the coming Spellplague, and the monsters and adventurers vanishing into and emerging from the Halls were also using the gates. The original text of this entry had Mellomir referring to an unspecified "message of fire." The original turnover of FR1 THE HAUNTED HALLS OF EVENINGSTAR included a magical "message" formed by flames dancing in midair that briefly appeared to anyone entering the many-pillared room of Encounter 31, that said this: "A great storm of magic is coming, that will twist or maim many. Beware the Black Star." It was edited out because the TSR designers of the day thought it too substantial to print without providing something of an explanation (that there was no wordcount left in the module to provide, and that would open a can of worms they wanted to avoid). This same message appears in front of the gates used the dwarves, monsters, and adventurers, whenever they are approached from the "Realms" side. So there you have it. Too mangled and chopped-down for anyone studying the Old Grey Box to recognize without this explanation. Sorry. I DID warn everyone it would be nigh-impossible to spot, beforehand. By the way, there's something else in FR0 tied to this: Sabirine's Specular. A Spell Engine provides a tiny "shelter" from Spellplague effects around itself, and Sabirine chose to die rather than embrace lichdom because she didn't want to endure years of undeath only to be swept away in the Spellplague, or twisted and maimed and left in a world ravaged by the Spellplague. The Spellplague term isn't mine (I called it "the Doom," or "the Coming of the Black Star" or "THE Spellstorm"), and I always intended this to be a mythical always-in-the-future bogey-tale. There you have it. -- George Krashos -The DOOM!!! I like it. 18DELTA;)
Alediran 01-31-08, 11:13 AM	It's still lame even with that. The Spellplague could've been anything else instead of what WotC did. For example what would have happened if Mystra merged the Weave and the Shadow Weave.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 01-31-08, 11:19 AM	Yeah, I saw this post on Candlekeep. I was wondering what, exactly, the "Black Star" was.
18DELTA 01-31-08, 11:21 AM	Yeah, I saw this post on Candlekeep. I was wondering what, exactly, the "Black Star" was. -Cyric? Maybe?:confused: Well here's the low down on the "spellplague" before it even was the "spellplague" from Ed himself. Given that the 100 year jump and the Abeir returning thingies are now in the public domain, this post isn't spoiling anything and I thought that the wider forum community might appreciate the insight. -Does this mean it was Ed's idea after all? Does this mean that the Spellplague was allways coming(did Ed allways intend for it to happen)??? BOLD ADDED 18DELTA:confused:
Alediran 01-31-08, 11:40 AM	The concept of Spellplague was created by Ed, I don't have any problem with that. I'm sure the Spellplague done by WotC wasn't Ed's idea.
18DELTA 01-31-08, 11:53 AM	The concept of Spellplague was created by Ed, I don't have any problem with that. I'm sure the Spellplague done by WotC wasn't Ed's idea. -We dont know that. They did have their TOP-SECRET GENCON MEETING IN 2005. Maybe WotC told him they wanted to use it and he gave them guidence in what and how to implement it? Ever think of that. Not saying thats what is happened. But it could have happened like that. I think that maybe people should stop looking at Ed with Rose colored glasses. We want to vilify WotC. Maybe he had a direct hand in all this? Not judging, just saying.;) 18DELTA;)
msatran 01-31-08, 12:12 PM	Even if he did, it only proves that people can't do anything without a big cosmic crisis. I don't think this was what Ed really had in mind. This is positively ruinous and definitely "not fun." I don't have any illusions that most of my players won't want to skip 100 years.
Devin Lightshadow 01-31-08, 12:23 PM	Keep in mind the last part of the last sentence - [QUOTE]I always intended this to be a mythical always-in-the-future bogey-tale That implies to me that Ed never actually intended for the "Doom" to come about. A mythical story about a future apocolypse but not something he intended to have happen.
MarkusTay63 01-31-08, 01:17 PM	Correct. Ed may have built a 'reset switch' into his Realms (just in case - you never know), but it was probably meant as something more along the lines of a 'Doomsday Weapon' that should never actually be implemented. Also, bear in mind, that the Caliph Augeries of the Phoenix Prophesies, were left incomplete on purpose, and Ed has this to say - At least 15 more eclipses are tucked in the final volume of Nar'ysr's predictions as recorded by Herald Swordswreath, though Elminster withheld that final volume from me. His notes on the omission were more cryptic than usual: "Lest fear and suspense eclipse thine thoughts more then reason, 'tis best I keep these here with me in the Realms." 'Eclipses' refer to history-making 'endings' - Obviously, more then one 'reset switch' is built-in to FR, but they do seem to have hit "the big one". ;) Can't seem to find that reference to Sabirine's Specular George mentions - I assume he meant FR10?
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 01-31-08, 01:57 PM	The concept of Spellplague was created by Ed, I don't have any problem with that. I'm sure the Spellplague done by WotC wasn't Ed's idea. In fact, Ed said the 4E Spellplague wasn't his idea, so your assumption is correct.:) Ed's words on the subject can be read in a sticky in the General Chat forum on Candlekeep.
Uzzy 01-31-08, 02:05 PM	Regardless of who came up with it, the way the Spellplague has been implemented utterly sucks. Still, I suppose all this means I get to save lots of money later in the year. Money I can spend on A Dance With Dragons, taking Gothic out for a drink etc.
18DELTA 01-31-08, 02:17 PM	-Its a mythical bogey-tale, that is now established in lore. And it is going to happen.;) I now have no problem with the spellplague now. I dont like the 100yr time jump(other than I can have a campaign set in DR1436 and not have to worry about some novel screwing with things, not that I dont like the novels).:P
Lord Karsus 01-31-08, 02:52 PM	-When you are reaching for straws, you can bend them in any shape or way that you want, when they are weak enough. And this, in my opinion, is a perfect example. I read this, three times, from beginning to end, and all I see is grasping for anything vague to tie things to, no offense to Krash.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 01-31-08, 02:54 PM	Yeah, the named references are very vague, so there are many different ways to make a story out of them. The Spellplague is just one possible story.
18DELTA 01-31-08, 02:59 PM	Yeah, the named references are very vague, so there are many different ways to make a story out of them. The Spellplague is just one possible story. -Right, the spellplague is the story they went with.;) PS where would one get these materials? Online in PDF Format, Amazon.com? 18DELTA:)
Suin Bahhar 01-31-08, 03:33 PM	The scraps of info detailed here are rather vague but also kinda creepy. What creatures are attracted by the Spellplague? Those dwarves that fled Toril also let others travel through the portals to Toril. And who is this Sabirine what role does she play during the unleashing? Did she used to be a friend of Elminster? Playing during the Spellstorm or the Spellplague is certainly one of my top priorities.
Uzzy 01-31-08, 08:16 PM	Hmm. I wonder how long it will take for some uninformed person to take this and claim that 'Ed always intended for the Spellplague to Happen, so you 'fans' shouldn't be complaining'. Or words to that effect. (I spend a lot of time semi-lurking on ENWorld. It's fun over there! ;) ) Anyway, I don't see how three references, two of which were never published and all of them being insanely vague could really be connected to the Spellplague. Ed seems to have left the possibility of a magical disaster in the Realmslore, something that could happen in the future. But tying it into the Spellplague seems like quite a leap to me.
Lord Karsus 01-31-08, 08:24 PM	Hmm. I wonder how long it will take for some uninformed person to take this and claim that 'Ed always intended for the Spellplague to Happen, so you 'fans' shouldn't be complaining'. Or words to that effect. (I spend a lot of time semi-lurking on ENWorld. It's fun over there! ;) ) -Wait for it...Wait for it... Anyway, I don't see how three references, two of which were never published and all of them being insanely vague could really be connected to the Spellplague...But tying it into the Spellplague seems like quite a leap to me. -Like I said, it's reaching for straws.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 02-01-08, 01:58 PM	Anyway, I don't see how three references, two of which were never published and all of them being insanely vague could really be connected to the Spellplague. Indeed, they are vague, which is why the references only make sense "after the fact" (as Ed himself puts it). Also, to me "always-in-the-future bogey tale" kind of implies "never meant to happen".
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 02-01-08, 01:59 PM	-Wait for it...Wait for it... I SOOOOO look forward to dealing with those people.:rolleyes:
Alediran 02-01-08, 02:41 PM	I SOOOOO look forward to dealing with those people.:rolleyes: They already started in the 4th edition boards. I'm smiting FR bashers left and right.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 02-01-08, 02:48 PM	They already started in the 4th edition boards. I'm smiting FR bashers left and right. I don't even feel like going over there.:rolleyes:
Alediran 02-01-08, 02:52 PM	I don't even feel like going over there.:rolleyes: Somebody has to do it. And it feels so good to see how mistaken are about the realms. BTW, does anybody knows where The Simbul is? I would really appreciate her help to deal with my brother and his fanatical view about how Mystra can't defeat Cyric in her own Divine Realm.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 02-01-08, 03:07 PM	Somebody has to do it. And it feels so good to see how mistaken are about the realms. I know, but reading the comments of some people will just make my brain hurt.:P
Alediran 02-01-08, 03:09 PM	I know, but reading the comments of some people will just make my brain hurt.:P Not even my brother makes sense, his lawyer studies force him to accept only the newest lore, even if it contradicts years of established cannon. For example he can't accept that a god can't enter the divine realm of another god without the owner's permision just because Cyric killed Mystra in Dwemoerheart. And that Shar could devise a ritual to destroy the Weave without alerting the Chosens of Mystra and the Guardians of the Weave so they stop her plans.
buzzard 02-01-08, 03:21 PM	Not even my brother makes sense, his lawyer studies force him to accept only the newest lore, even if it contradicts years of established cannon. For example he can't accept that a god can't enter the divine realm of another god without the owner's permision just because Cyric killed Mystra in Dwemoerheart. And that Shar could devise a ritual to destroy the Weave without alerting the Chosens of Mystra and the Guardians of the Weave so they stop her plans. You are a hypocrite. You are the one constantly saying (in that thread on the 4th edition FR forums) that the newest lore or book trumps the old one and cite WotSQ for your defense, well, guess what, PGtF is newer than WotSQ and by that book Cyric can enter Dweomerheart perfectly fine, TGHotR is the newest book and by that one Cyric did enter Dweomerheart, as simple as that. TGHotR trumps WotSQ, the 4th edition article thath mentions Cyric killing Mystra trumps WotSQ. I beat you with your very own arguments. And what have my studies got to do with the subject? It's just you being completely inconsistent when discussing the topic. And about Shar and the Rite of Unwinding it's there, it's not delusion from my part, check the Shadowdale adventure, (sidebar on page 12). Second I never mentioned that the Chosen would not be alerted on that thread, what I did say is that the Rite damages users of Silver Fire (3d6 or 6d6 damage per round depending on the stage of the rite) and the Chosen (3d6 damage per round to Chosen of Mystra). Don't try to twist my words to your benefit like you always do.
Lord Karsus 02-01-08, 03:25 PM	You say that the newest lore trumps the old one and cite WotSQ for your defense, well, guess what, PGtF is newer than WotSQ and by that book Cyric can enter Dweomerheart perfectly fine, TGHotR is the newest book and by that one Cyric did enter Dweomerheart, as simple as that. -Not exactly, technically. AGHotR isn't a book as much as it is a timeline. It gives us three second little blurbs. Theorically, this lore can be expanded upon to smooth out the edges - and, I really hope it is.
buzzard 02-01-08, 03:27 PM	-Not exactly, technically. AGHotR isn't a book as much as it is a timeline. It gives us three second little blurbs. Theorically, this lore can be expanded upon to smooth out the edges - and, I really hope it is. It can be smoothed yes, but somehow, Cyric did enter Dweomerheart and killed Mystra. That is not going to change.
Lord Karsus 02-01-08, 03:37 PM	It can be smoothed yes, but somehow, Cyric did enter Dweomerheart and killed Mystra. That is not going to change. -Correct. However, the situation can theoretically unfold such that Cyric himself didn't force his way into Dweomerheart, but that Velsharoon, who doesn't like Mystra, but lives in Dweomerheart, left the "door" open for him. This is the part I see you two arguing about, as I see it, correct? -Note that Sacrifice of the Widow reaffirms the notion that a deity cannot enter the divine realm of another deity whenever he/she likes to. In said novel, which is far more recent than both WotSQ and PGtF specifically mentions Vhaeraun needing his clerics to use Epic Magic to open a portal into Eilistraee's realm from the Material Plane, because he can't simply go there whenever he likes.
buzzard 02-01-08, 03:48 PM	-Correct. However, the situation can theoretically unfold such that Cyric himself didn't force his way into Dweomerheart, but that Velsharoon, who doesn't like Mystra, but lives in Dweomerheart, left the "door" open for him. This is the part I see you two arguing about, as I see it, correct? We argue about Cyric not being able to enter the plane at all, we didn't add Velsharoon into the equation, which could be a possibility and would make for a better story. -Note that Sacrifice of the Widow reaffirms the notion that a deity cannot enter the divine realm of another deity whenever he/she likes to. In said novel, which is far more recent than both WotSQ and PGtF specifically mentions Vhaeraun needing his clerics to use Epic Magic to open a portal into Eilistraee's realm from the Material Plane, because he can't simply go there whenever he likes. Yes but TGHotR trumps again Sacrifice of the Widow, and there could be an important difference in the novel, Vhearaun could have been trying to enter Eilistraee's Godly Realm directly, the Godly Realm and the plane are not the same thing, the Godly Realm is where the deity is at it's most powerful but such Realm is only a limited portion (depending on DvR) on an outer plane. A deity can change the astral links of the godly realm (not the plane) to impede teleportation, gate, plane shift, etcetera, but the deity is powerless in respect to the rest of the plane, Cyric could have entered any portion of Dweomerheart not dominated by Mystra and then walk into her Godly Realm.
Alediran 02-01-08, 03:49 PM	-Correct. However, the situation can theoretically unfold such that Cyric himself didn't force his way into Dweomerheart, but that Velsharoon, who doesn't like Mystra, but lives in Dweomerheart, left the "door" open for him. This is the part I see you two arguing about, as I see it, correct? And that would be acceptable, instead of just saying Cyric entered Dweomerheart all by himself which is impossible. -Note that Sacrifice of the Widow reaffirms the notion that a deity cannot enter the divine realm of another deity whenever he/she likes to. In said novel, which is far more recent than both WotSQ and PGtF specifically mentions Vhaeraun needing his clerics to use Epic Magic to open a portal into Eilistraee's realm from the Material Plane, because he can't simply go there whenever he likes. And that's what I'm saying. That's why Vhaeraun used a high ranking Yuggoloth to attack Quenthel's party in Resurrection when they were in the Demonweb Pits, because he was barred from entering Lolths Domain, not even entering the Demonweb Pits and walking after that.
buzzard 02-01-08, 03:53 PM	And that would be acceptable, instead of just saying Cyric entered Dweomerheart all by himself which is impossible. Godly Realm =/= Plane, Mystra can alter the astral links only in an 100 mile area of the plane that constitute her Godly Realm, for the rest of the infinite plane she could very slowly cast astral lock, but the area of the spell is minimal and the plane is still infinite. Cyric could enter those areas not locked and then WALK. And that's what I'm saying. That's why Vhaeraun used a high ranking Yuggoloth to attack Quenthel's party in Resurrection when they were in the Demonweb Pits, because he was barred from entering. A deity can block mortals or deities alike (so the Yugoloth entering directly the godly realm is still illogical), and epic spells make no difference, the ability to change astral links trumps any kind of magic, even epic spells, meaning that the novel (talking about Sacrifice, not Resurrection now) is at fault. BUT entering somewhere INSIDE the plane but OUTSIDE the godly realm is still possible for any kind of being. In any case, TGHotR is still newer than the novel and IS the last 3rd edition FR product, trumping all of the previous ones.
Alediran 02-01-08, 04:01 PM	Godly Realm =/= Plane, Mystra can alter the astral links only in an 100 mile area of the plane that constitute her Godly Realm, for the rest of the infinite plane she could very slowly cast astral lock, but the area of the spell is minimal and the plane is still infinite. Cyric could enter those areas not locked and then WALK. A deity can block mortals or deities alike (so the Yugoloth entering directly the godly realm is still illogical), and epic spells make no difference, the ability to change astral links trumps any kind of magic, even epic spells, meaning that the novel (talking about Sacrifice, not Resurrection now) is at fault. BUT entering somewhere INSIDE the plane but OUTSIDE the godly realm is still possible for any kind of being. In any case, TGHotR is still newer than the novel and IS the last 3rd edition FR product, trumping all of the previous ones. Then tell me, CAN a god enter walking the DIVINE REALM of another god or not? Because I'm seeing a contradiction here: BUT entering somewhere INSIDE the plane but OUTSIDE the godly realm is still possible for any kind of being. And here: A deity can block mortals or deities alike. If a deity can block mortals or deities from entering his/her Divine Realm then I don't see the difference between walking (there are spells like Interdiction who stop the entrance to anybody who doesn't matches the requirements, it works both for teleport and for walking entrances, with Alter Reality that can be applied to the whole Divine Realm) or teleporting to the Divine Realm.
msatran 02-01-08, 04:25 PM	It can be smoothed yes, but somehow, Cyric did enter Dweomerheart and killed Mystra. That is not going to change. And it doesn't change the fact that it's stupid and illogical either.
buzzard 02-01-08, 04:29 PM	Then tell me, CAN a god enter walking the DIVINE REALM of another god or not? Because I'm seeing a contradiction here: Yes the deity can, maybe I mixed a little my words, I'll clarify: BUT entering somewhere INSIDE the plane but OUTSIDE the godly realm is still possible for any kind of being. This is always possible since all the planes with deities in it are infinite (or at least most, it is the case of Dweomerheart though). Those deities have a limited godly realm (100 miles in the case of Greater Deities) in which they can change astral links to prohibit teleportation, plane shift, etcetera but they cannot change the rest of the infinite plane (except again, with spells that have limited range and wouldn't help at all on an infinite plane). And here: A deity can block mortals or deities alike. I meant to say here that when the deity CHANGES the astral links, it affects both mortals or deities alike with no distinction, but both mortals and deities can do what I mentioned previously, teleport outside the godly realm (100 miles in the case of Mystra) but inside the plane and then WALK. If a deity can block mortals or deities from entering his/her Divine Realm then I don't see the difference between walking (there are spells like Interdiction who stop the entrance to anybody who doesn't matches the requirements, it works both for teleport and for walking entrances, with Alter Reality that can be applied to the whole Divine Realm) or teleporting to the Divine Realm. Do you mean Forbiddance (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/forbiddance.htm)? Forbiddance does not prohibit normal movement (walking, it does block teleport spells and the like as you say), and only damages someone with opposing alignment entering the area. A successful will save halves the damage (which Cyric as a greater deity always makes) and he's got a very high chance of avoiding it in the first place (67% chance to avoid). He could avoid the damage altogether by entering with an antimagic field. Even if he took the damage, he has infinite healing by using Alter Reality and he wouldn't need to heal very regularly since the damage is minimal compared to his hit points. Alter Reality can't do it as fast as you say since Alter Reality duplicates the exact effects of the original spell (if the spell has X area then with alter reality it has that same X area of effect), only differences being that Alter Reality does not require XP or material components and the saving throw DC is 20 + DvR + CHA modifier. Forbiddance has an area of 60 ft. cube/caster level, in Mystra's case that means 2100 ft per use of the spell, and she needs to cover 100 miles. 1 mile = 5280 feet, Mystra would need to cast the spell 2 and 1/2 times to cover 1 mile of her Godly Realm, that's 251 castings of the spell to cover the entire godly realm (not counting metamagic options). That of course if the range of the spell were 100 miles, but it's range is medium (100 ft. + 10ft./caster level for a total of 450 ft. in the case of Mystra), meaning that Mystra needs to take A LOT of move actions (and thus a lot of rounds too) to cover the entire godly realm. And it doesn't change the fact that it's stupid and illogical either. Stupid maybe -as in they didn't offer too much detail and could have made things easier for themselves by fleshing out how it happened-. Illogical I don't know since 3rd edition contradicted itself about deities entering other deity's planes multiple times. It was possible at first and it is so again according to the last published product.
msatran 02-01-08, 04:40 PM	Lore does not work like rules mechanics. When rules mechanics are updated, it's a rules edit. When Lore is spontaneously changed, it is a CONTINUITY ERROR. It is not a rule, it is an in-game fact which is suddenly different. Every time they do this, it's another point in favor of my failure to properly monitor continuity leads to angry customers argument, which Marvel and DC have been doing for years and we can now officially add Wizards to the bandwagon on. Plus, blowing up the Realms and moving it 100 years into the future negates their need to properly monitor continuity, thus proving how lazy they are and how little love for the Realms they have. Second, you can key Forbiddance to a specific person or group of persons. So if I only want Yuan Ti to enter my dungeon, that's it. Everyone who's not a serpentfolk gets booted. The alignment rule for the damage still applies, however.
Alediran 02-01-08, 04:46 PM	The spell is Interdiction. It's mentioned on CotSQ in the section about the Temple of Lolth in the drow fortress below Daggerdale. It specifies that on entering the are (no matter how) you need to do a saving throw or be barred from entering. I know what I say because two sessions before my players had to deal with it (luckly for them everybody saved so they didn't need to cast dispell all the time to supress it because I declared that Interdiction was cast many times on that temple)
buzzard 02-01-08, 04:49 PM	When Lore is spontaneously changed, it is a CONTINUITY ERROR. It is not a rule, it is an in-game fact which is suddenly different. Every time they do this, it's another point in favor of my failure to properly monitor continuity leads to angry customers argument, which Marvel and DC have been doing for years and we can now officially add Wizards to the bandwagon on. Yes but, in 3rd edition gods could enter any plane normally at first, the contrary would be a continuity error as you say, in fact, maybe War of the Spider Queen nor Sacrifice of the Widow contradict that notion since entering a plane and a godly realm are two different things, however not being able to enter the godly realm directly does not prohibit someone from entering the plane and then walking inside the godly realm (that's if the one trying to enter can avoid the magical wards which is Cyric's case). Second, you can key Forbiddance to a specific person or group of persons. So if I only want Yuan Ti to enter my dungeon, that's it. Everyone who's not a serpentfolk gets booted. The alignment rule for the damage still applies, however. Maybe I'm missing the line, sometimes it's hard to read between such big chunks of text, could you point out that part for me please? Forbiddance Abjuration Level: Clr 6 Components: V, S, M, DF Casting Time: 6 rounds Range: Medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level) Area: 60-ft. cube/level (S) Duration: Permanent Saving Throw: See text Spell Resistance: Yes Forbiddance seals an area against all planar travel into or within it. This includes all teleportation spells (such as dimension door and teleport), plane shifting, astral travel, ethereal travel, and all summoning spells. Such effects simply fail automatically. In addition, it damages entering creatures whose alignments are different from yours. The effect on those attempting to enter the warded area is based on their alignment relative to yours (see below). A creature inside the area when the spell is cast takes no damage unless it exits the area and attempts to reenter, at which time it is affected as normal. Alignments identical No effect. The creature may enter the area freely (although not by planar travel). Alignments different with respect to either law/chaos or good/evil The creature takes 6d6 points of damage. A successful Will save halves the damage, and spell resistance applies. Alignments different with respect to both law/chaos and good/evil The creature takes 12d6 points of damage. A successful Will save halves the damage, and spell resistance applies. At your option, the abjuration can include a password, in which case creatures of alignments different from yours can avoid the damage by speaking the password as they enter the area. You must select this option (and the password) at the time of casting. Dispel magic does not dispel a forbiddance effect unless the dispeller’s level is at least as high as your caster level. You can’t have multiple overlapping forbiddance effects. In such a case, the more recent effect stops at the boundary of the older effect. Material Component A sprinkling of holy water and rare incenses worth at least 1,500 gp, plus 1,500 gp per 60-foot cube. If a password is desired, this requires the burning of additional rare incenses worth at least 1,000 gp, plus 1,000 gp per 60-foot cube. Source: D20 SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/forbiddance.htm)
msatran 02-01-08, 04:56 PM	At your option, the spell may include a password. A "password' can be anything, even being a specific creature type. Everything else would be disallowed. Granted, if you have Shapechange, this means you can bypass it by turning into a serpentfolk, but most wards like this aren't exactly barred to archmages anyway.
buzzard 02-01-08, 05:03 PM	The spell is Interdiction. It's mentioned on CotSQ in the section about the Temple of Lolth in the drow fortress below Daggerdale. It specifies that on entering the are (no matter how) you need to do a saving throw or be barred from entering. I know what I say because two sessions before my players had to deal with it (luckly for them everybody saved so they didn't need to cast dispell all the time to supress it because I declared that Interdiction was cast many times on that temple) I couldn't find the spell you mention (please provide exact page number). However you said that you need to make a saving throw to override the effect of the spell. Cyric as a greater deity always makes his saves so he could bypass such spell easily. At your option, the spell may include a password. A "password' can be anything, even being a specific creature type. Everything else would be disallowed. A password is precisely that, a word required to avoid the damage in the case of this spell's description, the spell never mentions that you can specify a creature type (unlike for example Helping Hand (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/helpingHand.htm), it IS specified there) and even if you could (which again, you can't) the character of different creature type can still enter normally, only that that creature still suffers the damage (which in Cyric's case is of no consequence to him). And anyways, entering with an antimagic field would completely negate the effects of the spell.
Alediran 02-01-08, 05:08 PM	I couldn't find the spell you mention (please provide exact page number). However you said that you need to make a saving throw to override the effect of the spell. Cyric as a greater deity always makes his saves so he could bypass such spell easily. I know cyric saves always. What I meant is that if there is a Spell that allows to stop somebody from walking into an area then there is no reason why more powerfull spells like this that stop gods can't exists. I don't remember the exact page. It's on part one of the module, its a sidebar in the area about Lolth's temple in Sitz Morcane, right after the magical school.
buzzard 02-01-08, 05:28 PM	I know cyric saves always. What I meant is that if there is a Spell that allows to stop somebody from walking into an area then there is no reason why more powerfull spells like this that stop gods can't exists. The evidence points to the contrary, for example, from "Contact Other Plane": "On rare occasions, this divination may be blocked by an act of certain deities or forces." Going by that, deities are much more able to affect spells rather than the other way around. Plus anyone entering inside a spell effect with an ongoing antimagic field would suppress any obstacle no matter the description of the spell (Cyric shouldn't even need an antimagic since such spell would allow him to make a saving throw). As I've said in the other thread, Mystra has some SDAs that make her the best spellcaster but she still casts spells, a power accessible by mortals and, no mortal should be able to access spells that can defeat the power of a deity or else we end up with player's being able to kill deities much like 4th edition will allow.
Ultimatecalibur 02-01-08, 06:04 PM	While I am enjoying buzzard and Alediran's multiple topic war about the viability of Cyric's felony, I think it is time for this thread to get back on topic. ...I always intended this to be a mythical always-in-the-future bogey-tale. I think several posters have quite possibly misunderstood what this line means. I think way back when he first came up with the Doom/Spellstorm/Coming of the Black Sun close to 2 decades ago, it was intended to be an adventure seed that DMs could use involving a coming disaster. Fast forward to 2005, Orcus is currently in the works and the decision to remove Vancian casting has been made. The team in charge of the Realms talks to ED, and explain that they will be overhauling the magic system and need a viable setting wide reason for magic to change. Ed proposes several ideas and the group finally settle on the Spellstorm, but agree to change it's name to Spellplague in order to avoid confusion with Greyhawk's Rain of Colorless Fire.
Krash 02-01-08, 06:07 PM	Fast forward to 2005, Orcus is currently in the works and the decision to remove Vancian casting has been made. The team in charge of the Realms talks to ED, and explain that they will be overhauling the magic system and need a viable setting wide reason for magic to change. Ed proposes several ideas and the group finally settle on the Spellstorm, but agree to change it's name to Spellplague in order to avoid confusion with Greyhawk's Rain of Colorless Fire. I think that's pretty much spot on. -- George Krashos
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 02-01-08, 08:10 PM	And what have my studies got to do with the subject? It's just you being completely inconsistent when discussing the topic. You and Alediran are siblings? I didn't know that.:)
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 02-01-08, 08:16 PM	I think several posters have quite possibly misunderstood what this line means. I still think it is open to interpretation.
msatran 02-01-08, 08:57 PM	You are incorrect. A password is a restricted set of conditions that prevent access to a resource.
Lord Karsus 02-02-08, 02:12 AM	Yes but TGHotR trumps again Sacrifice of the Widow... -No, no it does not. AGHotR simply says that Vhaeraun was killed by Eilistraee, after mortal worshippers opened a portal from the Material Plane to Eilistraee's domain. This does not contradict anything that is written in Sacrifice of the Widow, and thus, nothing is overturned. -And, again, AGHotR isn't a book that creates lore, except for the years/events that are exclusive to the book (most of which take place in the near future, as the current date is DR 1375. 95% of the book is a compilation of collected lore. As the lore already exists, there is nothing being overturned or overruled. Understand what I mean? ...and there could be an important difference in the novel, Vhearaun could have been trying to enter Eilistraee's Godly Realm directly, the Godly Realm and the plane are not the same thing, the Godly Realm is where the deity is at it's most powerful but such Realm is only a limited portion (depending on DvR) on an outer plane. -AGHotR says a specifically, "a portal to [her] realm". Again, AGHotR does not overturn anything in SotW. Vhaeraun cannot simply barge into Eilistraee's realm whenever he wants to. If deities could, there would be a lot more chaos in the planes, concerning divinities. A deity can change the astral links of the godly realm (not the plane) to impede teleportation, gate, plane shift, etcetera, but the deity is powerless in respect to the rest of the plane, Cyric could have entered any portion of Dweomerheart not dominated by Mystra and then walk into her Godly Realm. -Dweomerheart is Mystra's realm, her plane, however. When she died, the entire plane disappeared, not just her specific deific domain. Being as that Dweomerheart's existence is dependent on Mystra, it seems to me that Mystra has 'exclusive rights' on controlling the entire plane- all of it. This includes what it looks like, who is permitted to enter with her permission, who is barred, its effects on petitioners, etc.
Lord Karsus 02-02-08, 02:16 AM	I still think it is open to interpretation. -Very much so. Take whatshisnames prophecies...Nostradamus, apply them retroactivley, and you can come up with pretty much whatever you want. I've seen a prophecy* be used to 'prove' the big fire in Chicago years ago, and 9/11. *That one might have been a fake, though, as there are a lot of fake prophecies out there.
buzzard 02-02-08, 12:49 PM	You and Alediran are siblings? I didn't know that.:) Correct. You are incorrect. A password is a restricted set of conditions that prevent access to a resource. However, a password cannot be any kind of condition. The condition can only be based on words or strings of characters (check the dictionary (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/password)) so no you can't with that spell prohibit characters that belong to X race suffer the effects of the spell. And anyways even if that was possible (which, again, it is not) this discussion is pointless since not knowing the password does not prohibit you from entering at all, it only means that if you enter the area without the password you take damage, but you can keep moving perfectly fine and such low damage is of no consequence to Cyric, he could even cast an antimagic field around himself and avoid the effects of the spell altogether. -No, no it does not. AGHotR simply says that Vhaeraun was killed by Eilistraee, after mortal worshippers opened a portal from the Material Plane to Eilistraee's domain. This does not contradict anything that is written in Sacrifice of the Widow, and thus, nothing is overturned. I didn't mean to say that TGHotR contradicted what was said on Sacrifice of the Widow, I meant to say that if Sacrifice of the Widows stated that it's impossible to enter another plane (not godly realm) without a deity's permission, then it was overruled by TGHotR when describing that Cyric entered Dweomerheart. -AGHotR says a specifically, "a portal to [her] realm". Again, AGHotR does not overturn anything in SotW. Vhaeraun cannot simply barge into Eilistraee's realm whenever he wants to. If deities could, there would be a lot more chaos in the planes, concerning divinities. Well, the portal spell working should be impossible too, since a deity in her realm can prohibit not only specific teleportation (and similar) spells but also entire spell schools, for example, "Conjuration [teleportation]", that alone should be able to deny entrance to her godly realm to anyone trying to enter, be it by a regular spell or an epic spell and, regardless of who casted the spell (mortal or deity). Maybe it wasn't Eilistraee's intent to prohibit entrance to Vhaeraun in the first place (;)) but I wouldn't exactly know that since I haven't read that novel. Now, if Vhearaun tried to plane shift on that plane on a place that it wasn't Eilistraee's Godly Realm, teleportation would have worked perfectly fine, since Eilistraee has no control over those places other than her 1 mile long Godly Realm. -Dweomerheart is Mystra's realm, her plane, however. When she died, the entire plane disappeared, not just her specific deific domain. Being as that Dweomerheart's existence is dependent on Mystra, it seems to me that Mystra has 'exclusive rights' on controlling the entire plane- all of it. This includes what it looks like, who is permitted to enter with her permission, who is barred, its effects on petitioners, etc. Dweomerheart is Mystra's plane of residence but the entire plane is not "property" of hers nor does she hold power over it's entirety, especially considering that Azuth has a 10 mile Godly Realm (Azuth caverns [PGtF p. 152]), Savras has a godly realm between 100 ft. and 500 ft. long -depending on his actual divine rank which we don't know, we only know he's a demigod- (The Eye caverns [PGtF p. 152]) and Velsharoon has a similarly long godly realm -he's a demigod too- (Death's Embrace crypt [PGtF p. 152]), Mystra does not hold any divine power over those three domains (or any portion outside her 100 miles godly realm). There's also the matter of the Astral Plane and the color pools, if the pool leads exactly somewhere inside Mystra's godly realm of course she can ban entrance but, if the color pool leads somewhere outside her godly realm then there's nothing she can do, except send her minions/avatars to personally detain/stop any entering character. As for the plane collapsing, it could be product of raw magic unleashing on the plane and causing destruction, much like it does on Toril later, the plane probably suffered worse than Toril (it felt the effects more violently and first, when the Spellplague was more powerful), remember that the Spellplague rearranged all the planes too, if we use your logic then it would mean that Mystra held power over all the planes since they were all affected, which is simply not true.
Lord Karsus 02-02-08, 01:46 PM	I didn't mean to say that TGHotR contradicted what was said on Sacrifice of the Widow, I meant to say that if Sacrifice of the Widows stated that it's impossible to enter another plane (not godly realm) without a deity's permission, then it was overruled by TGHotR when describing that Cyric entered Dweomerheart. -Incorrect. As I keep saying, AGHotR only includes one or two line snippets. A few lines describe, more or less, what happened in an entire book. That AGHotR does not mention details, and in this case, it is the details that make the situation feasible, as opposed to it's current mostly unfeasible state. Multiple sources indicate that Cyric would not be allowed into Dweomerheart just like that. That AGHotR does not mention Cyric recieving aid entering into Dweomerheart does not mean that the rule has been retconned. It means that the story has yet to be elaborated in detail. Well, the portal spell working should be impossible too, since a deity in her realm can prohibit not only specific teleportation (and similar) spells but also entire spell schools, for example, "Conjuration [teleportation]", that alone should be able to deny entrance to her godly realm to anyone trying to enter, be it by a regular spell or an epic spell and, regardless of who casted the spell (mortal or deity). -I agree, and furthermore, Drow Elves cannot cast Elven High Magic, and Elven High Magic is not written on scrolls, as was the case in the novel. Now, if Vhearaun tried to plane shift on that plane on a place that it wasn't Eilistraee's Godly Realm, teleportation would have worked perfectly fine, since Eilistraee has no control over those places other than her 1 mile long Godly Realm. -Theoretically. But, we already have precidence of a malevolent deity with bad intentions being barred from an entire plane (Gruumsh being barred from Arvandor in Evermeet: Island of the Elves). Dweomerheart is Mystra's plane of residence but the entire plane is not "property" of hers nor does she hold power over it's entirety, especially considering that Azuth has a 10 mile Godly Realm (Azuth caverns [PGtF p. 152]), Savras has a godly realm between 100 ft. and 500 ft. long -depending on his actual divine rank which we don't know, we only know he's a demigod- (The Eye caverns [PGtF p. 152]) and Velsharoon has a similarly long godly realm -he's a demigod too- (Death's Embrace crypt [PGtF p. 152]), Mystra does not hold any divine power over those three domains (or any portion outside her 100 miles godly realm). There's also the matter of the Astral Plane and the color pools, if the pool leads exactly somewhere inside Mystra's godly realm of course she can ban entrance but, if the color pool leads somewhere outside her godly realm then there's nothing she can do, except send her minions/avatars to personally detain/stop any entering character. -See below. As for the plane collapsing, it could be product of raw magic unleashing on the plane and causing destruction, much like it does on Toril later, the plane probably suffered worse than Toril (it felt the effects more violently and first, when the Spellplague was more powerful), remember that the Spellplague rearranged all the planes too, if we use your logic then it would mean that Mystra held power over all the planes since they were all affected, which is simply not true. -Explain to me why the entire plane of Ziggaraxus (Sp?) began 'breaking' when Gilgeam of the Untheric Pantheon died. He was the leader of the Untheric Pantheon, and he, too, like Mystra, held dominion over the Plane, as he was the greatest power among all of the deities there, just like Mystra was the greatest power among all of the deities in Dweomerheart. No Spellplague involved. Other Untheric deities continued to exist (Hoar, Tiamat), and yet...
Hopeless 02-02-08, 06:08 PM	Just a minor point but Cyric knows Midnight-Mystra's true name, perhaps he used that to gain access and since by this point Helm was slain in that so-called duel perhaps Cyric used Helm's appearance so that Mystra wasn't on her guard since Helm isn't as powerful as her and given he had acquired the Llira or whatever the goddess of illusions name was he was able to strike her down by virtue of surprise as she was unaware that he knew her truename and used it in that instance with dreadful result. Sorry but thats the only way I think Cyric could have pulled that off using Mystra's true name to weaken her enough to kill her in her own plane. What do you think?
Kenzuki 02-02-08, 06:53 PM	Just a minor point but Cyric knows Midnight-Mystra's true name, perhaps he used that to gain access and since by this point Helm was slain in that so-called duel perhaps Cyric used Helm's appearance so that Mystra wasn't on her guard since Helm isn't as powerful as her and given he had acquired the Llira or whatever the goddess of illusions name was he was able to strike her down by virtue of surprise as she was unaware that he knew her truename and used it in that instance with dreadful result. Sorry but thats the only way I think Cyric could have pulled that off using Mystra's true name to weaken her enough to kill her in her own plane. What do you think? She knows Cyric's truename too.....which is Cyric.
Mula 02-02-08, 08:33 PM	Ed always intended for the Spellplague to Happen, so you 'fans' shouldn't be complaining.
squidfur- 02-02-08, 08:53 PM	Ed always intended for the Spellplague to Happen, so you 'fans' shouldn't be complaining. ATTACK!!!!!!!!!!!!!:P
Uzzy 02-02-08, 09:02 PM	Ed always intended for the Spellplague to Happen, so you 'fans' shouldn't be complaining. Heh.
sfdragon 02-02-08, 10:59 PM	Ed always intended for the Spellplague to Happen, so you 'fans' shouldn't be complaining. its not the plague, its that they used it to change the mechanics.... a few other things that really really annoyed people. so let me get this striaght if per say a dm and his group send their characters through the portals in the haunting halls they will avoid the plague all together? so if they temporal stasised themselves they could survive the 100 year jump and all? or did i miss something
Alediran 02-03-08, 12:16 AM	Ed always intended for the Spellplague to Happen, so you 'fans' shouldn't be complaining. That's not true. That kind of hooks is reserved for end of the line adventures. IT's what happened to the old World of Darkness.
Lord Karsus 02-03-08, 01:44 AM	What do you think? -Interesting point. Cyric is the patron of illusions, after all, so perhaps an illusion was involved. Ed always intended for the Spellplague to Happen, so you 'fans' shouldn't be complaining. :rimshot:
Kenzuki 02-03-08, 07:30 AM	Whilst I will let the great man respond himself in good time, it's clear that he built into the Realms (from the very, very beginning) a few reset buttons that would assist and help justify sweeping changes to his campaign (which naturally became available to all of us when the Realms became a published campaign setting). Obviously these reset buttons suited Ed and allowed him flexibility with regard to his own DM-ing and campaign for the benefit of his players. The ToT (maligned by many), a 'gods reset' was noted in Ed's DRAGON articles on the gods of FR before there even was a published FR campaign setting. Similarly, as we can now see, the 'magic reset' was also in place. Just makes you wonder how many more of these little dangling campaign erasers Ed has left us over the years, of which we are none the wiser ... -- George Krashos Interesting.....:P
Lord Karsus 02-03-08, 12:20 PM	...and another is a CYCLOPEDIA heading (yes, just the heading). [Ed was referring to the "Abeir-Toril" heading] -Last night, me and Rino were looking at the Cyclopedia of the Realms entry on Abeir-Toril, and there was nothing that either of of us could link to the Spellplague.
MarkusTay63 02-03-08, 12:34 PM	Check the other book - The Dm's Sourcebook of the Realms - In the introduction, by Ed Greenwood - "The "Forgotten Realms" derive their name from the fictitious fact upon which play in my campaign is based: that a multiverse exists, of countless parallel co-existing Prime Material Planes..." A bit of a stretch, but obviously Ed had always had in mind that hundreds of Planes 'overlapped', not just the two now known as 'Abeir' and 'Toril'. Also, I think that reference to the "Abeir-Toril" in the heading is inferring that it's odd that the name is seperated into two parts like that - I can't think of any other world thus named. Of course, we know the RW reason for that - it needed to come at the beginning of the Cyclopedia - but that's 'meta-game' knowledge, and AFAIK, saying that 'Abeir' was once a part of the Realms but has since been seperated DOES NOT violate any known previous canon that I'm aware of.
Lord Karsus 02-03-08, 12:57 PM	-The DM's Sourcebook of the Realms wasn't mentioned as being referenced for that specific part. The Cyclopedia of the Realms was.
MarkusTay63 02-03-08, 03:52 PM	Yes, and as I explained, the VERY ambiguous reference was probaly to the '-' that came between the two names, somehow indicating to us there is some sort of 'seperation' going on there. I never said I bought that - its definately a bit of a stretch - but it's the only thing I can think of that would make sense. Personally, instead of creating Abeir, I would have went with that parts of Abeir-Toril became 'unstable' dimensionally, and after all hell broke loose when the Weave collapsed, various parts of the world 'phased out', while pieces of other worlds 'phased-in'. You would have the same exact effect, without having to create the ridiculous lore about "lost Abeir". Also, None of those locations would really be gone for good (like Maztica), and it would have been much better to 'shunt' most of Halruaa into an alternate prime (Eberron? :devil:). In that way, characters could still travel to all the missing places, but would have to do a lot of research and locate which world they ended up on. I'd much rather imagine the Untherites and Halruaans living safely somewhere else, then being 'erased' like they were. :( Also, that would stick closer to that Introduction I quoted by Ed - Toril would have mixed with a number of alternate Primes, rather then just this one 'Abeir' the designers seem to love so much. Hey!!! Maybe Unther could have wound up in Jersey! :D
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 02-03-08, 05:34 PM	-Last night, me and Rino were looking at the Cyclopedia of the Realms entry on Abeir-Toril, and there was nothing that either of of us could link to the Spellplague. Indeed, "Abeir-Toril" was just the name of the planet (one planet). No mention of a lost sister world.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 02-03-08, 05:37 PM	Markus, a lot of fantasy names have "-" in them, even no one can think of another planet that does.
MarkusTay63 02-03-08, 08:33 PM	I know that - I was just trying to point out the one and only thing that they (Ed, George, Designers, etc) could possibly mean - ...and another is a CYCLOPEDIA heading (yes, just the heading). [Ed was referring to the "Abeir-Toril" heading] That specifically says 'The Heading', which means the 'clue' must be in that, and the only thing I see is that the two names are seperated. And like I said, I'm NOT defending it - I think calling that a 'clue' is a HUGE stretch... I don't think there was ever a 'Spellplague Plan' as some folks are saying - what they did was meet with Ed and discuss ways in which they could find a canon reason to CHANGE CANON. Ed liberally sprinkled all sorts of plothooks throughout the original CS, so it was fairly simple to find a few ambiguous entries and 'piece together' some sort of phony conspiracy. We all do that all the time, right here on these boards, but when the designers do it, we have a cow. :eek: But then again, whatever craziness WE come up with for our home games doesn't effect the tens of thousands of others who play in the Realms. :rolleyes:
Lord Karsus 02-03-08, 11:46 PM	Yes, and as I explained, the VERY ambiguous reference was probaly to the '-' that came between the two names, somehow indicating to us there is some sort of 'seperation' going on there. -That's not a clue. There was always a dash involved...Cyclopedia, DM's Sourcebook, Grand Tour of the Realms... Hey!!! Maybe Unther could have wound up in Jersey! :D -Hmm...Kensington (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kensington%2C_Brooklyn%2C_New_York). But then again, whatever craziness we come up with for our home games doesn't effect the tens of thousands of others who play in the Realms. :rolleyes: -That's the long and the short of it.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 02-04-08, 12:51 PM	And like I said, I'm NOT defending it - I think calling that a 'clue' is a HUGE stretch... Agreed.
Vulpes 02-04-08, 11:28 PM	Personally, instead of creating Abeir, I would have went with that parts of Abeir-Toril became 'unstable' dimensionally, and after all hell broke loose when the Weave collapsed, various parts of the world 'phased out', while pieces of other worlds 'phased-in'. You would have the same exact effect, without having to create the ridiculous lore about "lost Abeir". Also, None of those locations would really be gone for good (like Maztica), and it would have been much better to 'shunt' most of Halruaa into an alternate prime (Eberron? :devil:). In that way, characters could still travel to all the missing places, but would have to do a lot of research and locate which world they ended up on. I'd much rather imagine the Untherites and Halruaans living safely somewhere else, then being 'erased' like they were. :( But are they necessarily "erased"? As of right now, all we know is some Untheric ruins are still where the dragonkind empire is, no one quite knows where the Untheri (Untherians? Untherites?) went, and Maztica has been replaced somehow with "Lost Abeir." It sounds quite plausible, based on the scraps we know right now, that there WAS a "swap." The last Realmslore said [emphases mine]: "Portions of Abeir’s landscape were transposed with areas of Toril....an entire continent of the lost realm reappeared (called Returned Abeir) subsuming the continent of Maztica." Sounds to me like there are now people on Abeir growling about these "damned foreigners" with their ziggurats and their pyramids (not to mention gamers grumbling about how these jaguar warriors are totally superfluous to the setting and these designers can't do ANYTHING without blowing it up and what about my dragonborn characters now?!?)! *LOL* It's more of a stretch to say that happened to Halruaa, but it's not impossible to say the magical discharge destroyed a chunk of Toril, but shunted all the people into Abeir.
Kenzuki 02-05-08, 08:02 AM	I see potential to this tale. I'm more of a story/lore guy than an avid player these days, so I just enjoy seeing what happens next. I kinda hope Bhaal and Myrkul make a come back in some way to aid Bane.
Lord Karsus 02-05-08, 02:21 PM	But are they necessarily "erased"? -For all intents and purposes, as there is no 'Abeir' Campaign Setting.
18DELTA 02-05-08, 03:43 PM	-Last night, me and Rino were looking at the Cyclopedia of the Realms entry on Abeir-Toril, and there was nothing that either of of us could link to the Spellplague. -Was that all you two were looking at? :smirk: -For all intents and purposes, as there is no 'Abeir' Campaign Setting. -So...is it the 'Abeir-Toril' Campaign Setting now?:P 18DELTA;)
ziplock001 02-05-08, 07:41 PM	It's a shame that they (WotC) couldn't be original and come up with a new fantasy setting without making a shambles of their bread & butter. But of course, talented folks like Ed Greenwood are few and between.
Vulpes 02-05-08, 11:42 PM	-For all intents and purposes, as there is no 'Abeir' Campaign Setting. True enough. But if you like Maztica and Unther that much, you have a perfect opening to MAKE one.
Kenzuki 02-05-08, 11:43 PM	I think Wizards could do something like that.
MarkusTay63 02-05-08, 11:49 PM	I have a feeling there will be an Abeir, but whether thats a good thing or bad is yet to be seen. I have already surmised that many of the 4e core adventures will take place in the Feywild and Shadowfell (ergo, automatically usable in all settings), so it wouldn't be much of a stetch if Abeir turns out to be the 'mythical' 4e core world (called POL ;) ). Now, if they give the same treatment to the other settings that FR is getting, maybe Abeir will have little chunks of them as well (DL, GH, DS, etc). Then, WotC can take any core adventures that don't fit into one of the new parallel planes and stick it in Abeir, which is now reachable by all these other setting-worlds (Crytsal Spheres). I would REALLY hate that, but it seems like they are trying to come up with whatever gimmick they can to make the 4e adventures universal and setting-neutral.
Kenzuki 02-05-08, 11:58 PM	Why would you hate that?
MarkusTay63 02-06-08, 12:12 AM	Because then Abeir would just become some sort of 'cosmic dumping-ground' for all the parts of other settings that get 'surgically removed' by the designers to explain 4th edition rules changes. But then again, I don't like Abeir to begin with, so I guess I really shouldn't care if they ruin it. :P
Kenzuki 02-06-08, 12:19 AM	You don't like Abeir? You don't even know what Abeir really is yet.
MarkusTay63 02-06-08, 12:43 AM	Sure I do - it's a word Jeff Grubb came up with so that the world would come at the beginning of the Cyclopedia. Anything else is pure bull__it. ;)
Kenzuki 02-06-08, 12:45 AM	Cyclopedia?
MarkusTay63 02-06-08, 12:57 AM	Yes, the Cyclopedia of the Realms, which came in the 1e FR campaign box and was basically a geography lesson about Faerûn. Toril was the name of the planet in Jeff Grubb's home-game (NOT Ed's), and he used it for the Realms, but applied 'Abeir' as a prefix just so it would come first in the index. Thats ALL it was, for twenty years... :rolleyes: Come to think of it, that means that ALL of the old lore is now null and void, since 'Toril' was the name of Jeff Grubb's planet, and NOT Faerûn at all. So basically, everything printed about Toril, including the maps, has been 100% wrong all this time, and we now need to contact Mr. Grubb in order to find out the real details of the planet we've been playing on all along. After all, according to WotC Abeir and Toril are two seperate worlds, which means they are completely different entities from Abeir-Toril, which is what TSR named Ed's world. I want to play on Ed's world, it sounds interesting. I don't need to switch to these two new planets (settings) they've created for 4e. :smirk:
Lord Karsus 02-06-08, 01:31 AM	Toril was the name of the planet in Jeff Grubb's home-game (NOT Ed's), and he used it for the Realms, but applied 'Abeir' as a prefix just so it would come first in the index. Thats ALL it was, for twenty years... :rolleyes: -And in any writing ever even remotely touched by me, that's all it will ever be. Sure I do - it's a word Jeff Grubb came up with so that the world would come at the beginning of the Cyclopedia. Anything else is pure bull__it. ;) -To quote the incomparable Khelben, "Indeed". After all, according to WotC Abeir and Toril are two seperate worlds, which means they are completely different entities from Abeir-Toril, which is what TSR named Ed's world. -According to what I surmised from Stardeep: -Abeir was a world where Abberations came from, who tried to colonize and assimilate the world of Toril. Judging by how the word is used, it sounds more like a mobile plane, perhaps like Ravenloft, or Neth, than an actial planet or anything. Anyway, ancient deities, who I've hypothesized were the 5 lost Yuir deities, were able to drive the Abberations who were in the process of ruling over Toril back to Abeir, and shunted it away. -How they are going to explain that the planet is named, and has always (in continuity, in-game terms) been named Abeir-Toril, is something that I figure is either going to be quickly glossed over, or ignored.
Old Sage 02-06-08, 01:32 AM	Toril was the name of the planet in Jeff Grubb's home-game (NOT Ed's), and he used it for the Realms, but applied 'Abeir' as a prefix just so it would come first in the index.Jeff contributed the name of the planet [Toril, to which he added the prefix Abeir to shift the world entry to the front of the alphabetical listings in the Old Grey Box] from his campaign. Ed had no world name because the folks in Faerûn knew they lived on something that curved, but considered it all one land. Jeff and Ed became very close friends, and he managed the hard task of turning all the Realmslore Ed sent in to TSR every week [until they yelled at him to stop :D] into a coherent setting with both wit and humor.
Zanan 02-06-08, 02:08 PM	Yeah, the named references are very vague, so there are many different ways to make a story out of them. The Spellplague is just one possible story. Very much so. Don't say that it isn't but there are adventure hooks spread all over the place and if I get enough time, I can spin a tale like National Treasure (I like that movie) or the DaVinci Code as well. In the end, it does not exactly matter to me who came up with the concept, the Ragnarök that will happen with Spellplague will create New Realms. As Nightwish once sang, right now there is ... Deep Silent Complete In your creation heaven did decree that in your arms sweet death should dwell. Deep silent complete, black velvet sea, the sirens are calling for me. Saved my soul thinking "this song's a lie", sand on the shore is so dry. Deep silent complete, black velvet sea, brave day sinking in endless night. The age will say: "this poet lies, heaven never touched earthly face." The age will say: "this night was ours", blessed with the deep, the silent the complete.
Alediran 02-06-08, 02:31 PM	They also sang Wishmaster Wishmaster Master! Apprentice! Heartborne, 7th Seeker Warrior! Disciple! In me the Wishmaster Elbereth Lorien A dreamy-eyed child staring into night On a journey to storyteller`s mind Whispers a wish speaks with the stars the words are silent in him Distant sigh from a lonely heart "I`ll be with you soon, my Shalafi" Grey Havens my destiny Master! Apprentice! Heartborne, 7th Seeker Warrior! Disciple! In me the Wishmaster Silvara Starbreeze Sla-Mori the one known only by Him To august realms, the sorcery within If you hear the call of arcane lore, Your world shall rest on Earth no more A maiden elf calling with her cunning song "Meet me at the Inn of Last Home" Heartborne will find the way! Master! Apprentice! Heartborne, 7th Seeker Warrior! Disciple! In me the Wishmaster Wishmaster Crusade for Your will A child, dreamfinder The Apprentice becoming... Master! Apprentice! Heartborne, 7th Seeker Warrior! Disciple! In me the Wishmaster I saw it live in Buenos Aires during their last concert with Tarja in Argentina. The whole stadium exploded with that song.
Zanan 02-06-08, 02:37 PM	Now try to put the above into a FR context.
Alediran 02-06-08, 02:41 PM	The apprentice is the new FR player, the Master is the veteran FR player. All Realmslore Masters were once apprentices who became Masters. The fantasy setting of that song is Dragonlance (ironic huh?). As a full package I think the song is dedicated to Raistlin Majere. It's a wizard's song after all.
Lord Karsus 02-06-08, 03:21 PM	The fantasy setting of that song is Dragonlance (ironic huh?). -Really? I saw much more Lord of the Rings than Dragonlance. Mind you, though, as I don't know very much about Dragonlance, some references might have been lost on me: Lord of the Rings Elbereth Lorien Grey Havens Inn of Last Home Dragonlance august realms Silvara shalafi
DMD 02-06-08, 03:34 PM	The more I think about it the more thse 4E changes remind me of what was done to Dragonlance in the 5th age material right after Dragons of Summer Flame. I saw a pretty funny post on paizo discussing this issue actually. Heh, I almost laughed out loud at work when I read it. :)
Alediran 02-06-08, 03:41 PM	-Really? I saw much more Lord of the Rings than Dragonlance. Mind you, though, as I don't know very much about Dragonlance, some references might have been lost on me: Lord of the Rings Elbereth Lorien Grey Havens Dragonlance august realms Silvara shalafi Inn of Last Home Sla-Mori (a series of tunnels where Tanis finds the Dragonslayer Sword) I corrected your post
Lord Karsus 02-06-08, 04:08 PM	The more I think about it the more thse 4E changes remind me of what was done to Dragonlance in the 5th age material right after Dragons of Summer Flame. -Agreed, as well as the radical changes made to Greyhawk, right before it's decline. Anyone seeing the pattern? Good setting --> Radical change --> Massive fan exodus --> "failure". The past doesn't lie, nor does it spin things. I corrected your post -I'm pretty sure I've heard the Inn of the Last Home associated with Tolkien. But, whatever. -Sla-Mori, I didn't know. -I just downloaded the song (it sounded interesting) from iTunes, and...:yuck:
Alediran 02-06-08, 05:00 PM	Not everybody can listen to Metal. I have my ticket for Iron Maiden that plays on March.
Lord Karsus 02-06-08, 05:39 PM	Not everybody can listen to Metal. I have my ticket for Iron Maiden that plays on March. -I have no problem with metal. I listen to Metallica, no problem. I like being able to understand the lyrics, which is something I was not able to do, especially when the lyrics are most of what the song's got going for it, which is very prevalent in heavy metal, in my opinion.
Old Sage 02-06-08, 07:03 PM	They also sang Wishmaster"Wishmaster" is not the only Nightwish song on that particular album to have significant influence from the DRAGONLANCE Saga. There's also "Wanderlust" -- which is usually assumed to be based, vaguely, on the kender concept of the same name. I corrected your postStarbreeze can also be considered a DL reference.
Old Sage 02-06-08, 07:05 PM	-I'm pretty sure I've heard the Inn of the Last Home associated with Tolkien. But, whatever.You may be thinking of the Last Homely House -- 'twas a name given to Elrond's refuge in Rivendell.
Alediran 02-06-08, 08:14 PM	"Wishmaster" is not the only Nightwish song on that particular album to have significant influence from the DRAGONLANCE Saga. There's also "Wanderlust" -- which is usually assumed to be based, vaguely, on the kender concept of the same name. Starbreeze can also be considered a DL reference. Yeah, I forgot that, thanks. The heat wave we are suffering makes my blood pressure get very low and I can barely think. Wanderlust is one of my favourite Nightwish songs, but the top two are Elvenpath (has a reference to Mielikki) and Nightquest. LK: Nightwish, at least while Tarja was the singer, had a great live quality, listening to them was like listening to their CD, and that's hard to do.
Vulpes 02-06-08, 11:17 PM	How they are going to explain that the planet is named, and has always (in continuity, in-game terms) been named Abeir-Toril, is something that I figure is either going to be quickly glossed over, or ignored. It seems to me, based on AGHotR, that once Abeir and Toril were one, called Abeir-Toril, but then something happened (the Sundering?) and they were separated, but the name stuck, though no one could quite remember what Abeir was. But what do I know? I'm kinda interested in Abeir and the idea of a "cosmic dumping ground." It might be cool to have all these people from all different worlds suddenly find themselves thrust together.
Lord Karsus 02-07-08, 12:02 AM	It seems to me, based on AGHotR, that once Abeir and Toril were one, called Abeir-Toril, but then something happened (the Sundering?) and they were separated, but the name stuck, though no one could quite remember what Abeir was. -The first time the name of the planet is used, in AGHotR on pg. 8, (-31,000 DR), the word 'Abeir-Toril' is used. The next reference, on pg. 8 (-27,000 DR), the word 'Toril' is used. I believe it was MT who orinally brought this up, hypothesizing that perhaps it had something to do with the Tearfall. Brian later mentioned that that just happened to be coincidence, and that his theory had no real substance. This also contradicts the information presented in Stardeep, where it is said that the realm of 'Abeir' was "sent away" before the dawn of life on the planet (ie, before recorded history).
MarkusTay63 02-07-08, 01:35 PM	No, it was someone else who pointed it out first, I believe over at CK - Brian J. and GK replied that it was not intentionally done on THEIR part. I then replied that that means NOTHING - the folks in charge could have pulled that one off with the final edit, well-knowing their 4e plans in advance. MY musings pertained to the Sundering having reached into the future and caused the Draco-laser to misfire into the past, causing the -31K Tearfall, and thus changing Toril's geography for all time. The Sundering rent the world, but it is never truly explained WHAT the spell exactly did, besides reaching backward and forward in time. ;) Since we haven't heard what happened to Evermeet yet, I'm still holding onto a sliver of hope that that final part of my predictions sees fruition. Mind you, I don't neccessarily like any of this; it was all idle speculation on what little was being said, and more importantly, on what was NOT being said. One last thing - we now know FOR SURE that at some point Abeir was split off from Toril (as per 4e lore), and what canon historic event sounds more appropriate to describe two things getting 'ripped-apart' then The Sundering? And THAT theory was ALL mine. :P
Lord Karsus 02-07-08, 03:02 PM	The Sundering rent the world, but it is never truly explained WHAT the spell exactly did, besides reaching backward and forward in time. ;) -That, in my estimation, means nothing, as it was put in there to cover the fact that the date printed in LEoF, RoF, or whatever is was, for the Sundering was grossly incorrect. One last thing - we now know FOR SURE that at some point Abeir was split off from Toril (as per 4e lore), and what canon historic event sounds more appropriate to describe two things getting 'ripped-apart' then The Sundering? -As I've stated multiple times now, Stardeep basically outright states that 'Abeir' was shunted away long before the start of recorded history, when Abberations were colonizing the 'Toril'. If you don't want to plug that in somewhere before the start of AGHotR, -35,000 DR or so, there has been a lot of 'wiggling around', that the Batrachi (Sp?) were very Abberation like, so perhaps these events took place when the Batrachi were in power. Either way, there is no connection to the Sundering.
MarkusTay63 02-08-08, 01:43 AM	You just don't want anything to happen to your precious Evermeet. :D And how much you want to bet the FRCG invalidates at least part of what you say about Stardeep? ;) Lately, it appears that one hand is unaware of what the other's doing over at WotC. I hope you at least watch over your hands better then that. :P
Lord Karsus 02-09-08, 12:46 AM	You just don't want anything to happen to your precious Evermeet. :D -I have no problem with change. As long as it makes sense. If Amlauril abdicated her throne to Lamruil, to go on a quest for her lost son, I'd have no problem with it. If Amlauril abdicated her throne to...Drizzt Do'Urden, or Elminster, then I would. And how much you want to bet the FRCG invalidates at least part of what you say about Stardeep? ;) -The 4e one? Probably, since most of that is just my personal hypothesis, coupled with the facts presented from Stardeep, which were rather vague, and sparse, purposely so, probably. But, Bruce Cordell, author of Stardeep, is involved in the FR designing, isn't he? So if he is, it would make sense that the ideas he has stay more or less as he intended them. I hope you at least watch over your hands better then that. :P -Please, my Hands always seem to be wandering, touching other people and things inappropriatley... -Want to join? :)
18DELTA 02-09-08, 01:02 AM	-Please, my Hands always seem to be wandering, touching other people and things inappropriatley... -Want to join? :) -Sorry Boss!!!;) Yeah we are like the NWO!!!:cool: 18DELTA:P
Lord Karsus 02-09-08, 01:11 AM	-Sorry Boss!!!;) Yeah we are like the NWO!!!:cool: -nWo Hollywood, or nWo Wolfpack? :cool:
18DELTA 02-09-08, 01:18 AM	-nWo Hollywood, or nWo Wolfpack? :cool: -Hollywood all the way. The other group was just cheesy, well it was all cheesy. Hogan used Jimmi Hendrix(Vodoo Child) for his entrance music!!! Nuff Said:D 18DELTA:cool:
MarkusTay63 02-09-08, 01:39 AM	Hendrix FTW!!! :dancin: -I have no problem with change. As long as it makes sense. If Amlauril abdicated her throne to Lamruil, to go on a quest for her lost son, I'd have no problem with it. If Amlauril abdicated her throne to...Drizzt Do'Urden, or Elminster, then I would.Sssshhhhhh... don't give them any ideas... :incog:
Lord Karsus 02-09-08, 01:48 AM	Hendrix FTW!!! :dancin: -I named the Avariel NPC in EoF 'Littlewing', and I will be using a snippet of 'Angel' for the introduction to the Avariel essay. :) Sssshhhhhh... don't give them any ideas... :incog: -Sometimes I wish they stole some of the ideas we come up with, as they are (usually) good.
MarkusTay63 02-09-08, 02:04 AM	Well... I suppose if you WANT Drizzt to be the King of Evermeet... :P
Lord Karsus 02-09-08, 02:10 AM	Well... I suppose if you WANT Drizzt to be the King of Evermeet... :P -That's where 'sometimes', and 'usually' come in. :teach: -Installing Drizzt as the Coronal of Evermeet is not a good idea. No, not at all.
sfdragon 02-09-08, 04:59 AM	drizzt dourden the renegade drow as coronal of evermeet or drizzt dourden the illthari as coronal of evermeet.which drizzt ? it could happen you know, the drow Drizzt would be no more, hed be an elf
MarkusTay63 02-09-08, 02:59 PM	I'm pretty certain that Drow will no longer be Elves in 4e... Then again, neither will Gray and High Elves, which have become Eladrin... Which is VERY weird, because Eladrin are still Eladrin... :confused: So Eladrin, Gold and Silver Elves, and Drow are all off-shots of a single common race (Eladrin :uh-huh:), but they themselves ar no longer considered a single race. They really need to come up with some other name for the 'over-group' - it's too confusing as-is. :rolleyes:
Lykor 02-09-08, 05:31 PM	They really need to come up with some other name for the 'over-group' - it's too confusing as-is. :rolleyes: It should be something simple, and in keeping with their heratige. I recommend "elves" for the main group.
MarkusTay63 02-09-08, 08:14 PM	But they are already using 'Elves' for the Sylvan variety, so that would just add to the confusion. Something completely different for the new 'High' Elves, like Ælfen or Shide and another for the over-group that encompasses them all, like Aldaar. Right now, that description of the four we were given just adds to all the confusion - changing the meaning of terms already established IG is counter-productive.
Lord Karsus 02-09-08, 11:11 PM	It should be something simple, and in keeping with their heratige. I recommend "elves" for the main group. -I concur. They are Elves all around. Sun Elves, Moon Elves, Wood Elves...:)
MarkusTay63 02-09-08, 11:18 PM	No, wood Elves are a completly seperate race now - sub-races have gone the way of the dodo bird and the Thylacine (Tasmanian Wolf). The three groups of former 'Elves' (four including the Eladrin) are now more along the lines of Neaderthal, Cromagnum, and Homosapien Humans - all are decended from common stock, but they have taken different evolutionary paths. But of course, Dan should be along shortly to tell me how Elves do not evolve. :P
Lord Karsus 02-09-08, 11:23 PM	No, wood Elves are a completly seperate race now - sub-races have gone the way of the dodo bird and the Thylacine (Tasmanian Wolf). -Yes, I know. Point was, subraces make sense, especially in the contexts that we currently have. But of course, Dan should be along shortly to tell me how Elves do not evolve. :P -They don't. I don't think Dan really posts here anymore, either.
MarkusTay63 02-10-08, 12:22 AM	I agree, with races like Elves, sub-races did make sense, but then the designers and authors all went a little nuts, and everyone and his brother decided they wanted to create their own... How many did we have, just in FR, last total? :bored: Another perfect example of designers screwing up a good thing by over-doing it, and we have to pay the price with a retcon. :( Really, what the HELL was the point in seperating the Sylvan (Green) Elves into two sub-sub-groups? (Wood and Grugach)? And both the sea and Winged varieties could have been templates - Elves are known to 'spontaneously evolve' when a need arises. The original two (three counting Drow) were just fine, for core AND for FR.
Lord Karsus 02-10-08, 01:19 AM	How many did we have, just in FR, last total? :bored: -In Faerûn, there were the: Sun Elves Moon Elves Wood Elves Drow Elves Aquatic Elves Winged Elves Lythari Star Elves 'Desert Elves' Possibly Snow Elves Really, what the HELL was the point in seperating the Sylvan (Green) Elves into two sub-sub-groups? (Wood and Grugach)? -There was no point, which is why I do not recognize it.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 02-10-08, 08:15 PM	But, Bruce Cordell, author of Stardeep, is involved in the FR designing, isn't he? He certainly is.
Lord Karsus 02-10-08, 08:39 PM	He certainly is. -Right. I wasn't sure if he was involved in designing the 4e Realms, 4e itself, or both.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 02-10-08, 08:43 PM	-Right. I wasn't sure if he was involved in designing the 4e Realms, 4e itself, or both. I think it's both, because he has articles about the "core" world in the preview books. But he is also a part of the "trio" that (from what we've been told) have been the movers and shakers of the 4E Realms--Rich Baker, Bruce Cordell, and Phil Athans.
Lord Karsus 02-10-08, 08:56 PM	...and Phil Athans. -What stuff has he done/been involved with? I looked him up on Yahoo! and Wikipedia, but I didn't get anything relevant.
Old Sage 02-10-08, 09:47 PM	He's the author of the "Watercourse" trilogy. He's edited numerous other Realms sources. And he wrote "Annihilation" -- Book V of the WotSQ saga. He's had his hand in a few other Realms-related projects as well.
Kenzuki 02-10-08, 10:08 PM	Phil Athans wrote the abominable first two Baldur's Gate novels....
Lord Karsus 02-11-08, 12:15 AM	And he wrote "Annihilation" -- Book V of the WotSQ saga. -The one with Valas on the cover. That's right. I knew I knew him from somewhere.
MarkusTay63 02-11-08, 12:18 AM	Watercourse... WotSQ... Baldur's Gate... We're doomed. :(
Lord Karsus 02-11-08, 12:44 AM	-Give the guy some credit. Mind you, the only piece of work of read of him was Annihilation, and the other novels generally get brad reviews by you guys, but...In today's age of Forgotten Realms, there's no reason to be negative when it's not necessarily warranted. We need to keep whatever hope and light that we can. It's a "Points of Light" kind of world out there right now. ;)
MarkusTay63 02-11-08, 01:02 AM	But I heard that Watercourse was just a plagerized amazingly derivitive copy of an earlier work, and the last book of the WotSQ series ruined the whole thing for me. I mean... was there absolutely ANY point to that series? If they needed to tell us Lolth got her own domain in 4e, they could of saved themselves some trouble and us some money and just gave us a sentence or two in the GHotR. Like they did with so much else.... :(
Lord Karsus 02-11-08, 01:09 AM	But I heard that Watercourse was just a plagerized amazingly derivitive copy of an earlier work... -I've also heard that the Forgotten Realms is a setting that is totally, 100% developed, that there is not a single gain of sand left for a DM to develop, that the Forgotten Realms are stale, and that the Forgotten Realms has too many events that change too many facets of the setting. -Point is, you can't be sure until you actually read it. Ayn Rand is cool, but I don't know how, or in what fashion the novels suposedly are influenced by Rand. In my mind's eye, the books could have nothing I think linking to Rand (of course, that isn't necessarily the actual truth ;)) I mean... was there absolutely ANY point to that series? -Now you're complaining that a novel series wasn't a giant RSE. Make up your mind, man! :P
MarkusTay63 02-11-08, 01:23 AM	It WAS an RSE! Loth's entire godly Realms friggin' moved! It just wasn't physically 'felt' in the Realms as much as others were. Its just that... the protagonists (I use that word only because there were NO heroes) didn't prevent anything from happening, didn't accomplish much, and most of them wound up dying... and that final death was just pointless and almost seemed spiteful on the part of the author. It served no other purpose then to make the reader say "I can't believe I paid good money to read that".
Lord Karsus 02-11-08, 01:38 AM	-I'm not talking about the War of the Spider Queen series. I'm referencing what you said about the Watercourse Trilogy.
Zanan 02-11-08, 04:32 AM	-I've also heard that the Forgotten Realms is a setting that is totally, 100% developed, that there is not a single gain of sand left for a DM to develop, that the Forgotten Realms are stale, and that the Forgotten Realms has too many events that change too many facets of the setting. Aye. The problem is, of course, that the vast majority of gamers who like the Realms is usually mature enough not to run and slaver about them, so the voices that apparently got heard are those of the oppressed minority, which e.g. cannot stand a goddess of magic being ahead of their (presumably) male arch-mega-wizard, or does not look close enough at the map to recognize the scale which tells you that e.g. Cormanthor has roughly the size of Connecticut. (Now, where's Connecticut ...) Add to the above "the new crop" of designers and a 4E that cannot work with the Weave (:confused: ) and Ragnageddon is upon you.
Lord Karsus 02-11-08, 04:37 AM	...cannot stand a goddess of magic being ahead of their (presumably) male arch-mega-wizard... -Not this arch-maga-wizard! :D ...and Ragnageddon is upon you. -Realmsageddon. :eek:
Another Gnome 02-11-08, 04:46 AM	does not look close enough at the map to recognize the scale which tells you that e.g. Cormanthor has roughly the size of Connecticut. Actually, Cormanthor (120 x 240 miles, not counting the branching areas) is at least twice the size of Connecticut (70 x 110 miles). Even with careful estimate, closer to 4 times overall. :P
Zanan 02-11-08, 07:11 AM	Actually, Cormanthor (120 x 240 miles, not counting the branching areas) is at least twice the size of Connecticut (70 x 110 miles). Even with careful estimate, closer to 4 times overall. :P Test passed. ... Almost! For I had hoped that the winner gives me a state* with a more appropriate size! *A state the casual D&D gamer (i.e. US American) would know instantly ;)
Uzzy 02-11-08, 12:08 PM	West Virginia is the closest, at 130 x 240 miles. What do I win? :D
msatran 02-11-08, 02:10 PM	Your sister running away from you. It's West Virginia. What did you expect me to say? :) But, seriously enough, folks, the thing that bothers me most about the Watercourse Trilogy is that it is a thinly veiled copy of an Ayn Rand novel, and no matter how many times Atlas shrugs, so to speak, William Faulkner's Pylon will still remain the standard for novels of this type. My problem with these books wasn't the events contained therein. The events of the novels themselves are perfectly fine. It was the fact that my literary intelligence and close reading skills were being insulted by the fact that Wizards thinks that none of us read enough real literature to know what's going on.
Lord Karsus 02-11-08, 11:55 PM	My problem with these books wasn't the events contained therein. The events of the novels themselves are perfectly fine. -What's the problem, then? As long as the author doesn't cause grossly negligent problems to continuity, does it matter if he/she loosely/closely mirrors another story?
Vulpes 02-12-08, 12:14 AM	I actually liked the Watercourse trilogy (Shhhh! I don't want Rino to hear!). But, then, I've avoided reading any Ayn Rand; the politics and philosophy of Objectivism gives me hives. I just thought it was really different from any other novels they've put out. Still don't get what the hell was up with that sword and the ghosts, or how the hell the main character guy could be an atheist in frickin' trip-over-a-deity-on-your-morning-walk Faerun, but it was still interesting.
MarkusTay63 02-12-08, 12:16 AM	Yes, because it means they simply do not have enough talent or imagination to come up with their own material, which is NOT conducive to writing good Fiction. Or designing Fantasy games, for that matter... :rolleyes: This sort of thinking is creating a group of psuedo-intellectuals who actually think they have accomplished something, when the truth is that ANYONE can write an FR novel and be a bestselling author, simply because the fans are compelled to keep up with the lore. It's basically a conflict of interest - the guys in charge should not be able to give themselves work, because then there is no impartial group to judge their qualifications. It must be great to be able to pat yourself on the back all day long... Those guys are the 'Kevin Federlines' of the literary world. :ahem:
Lord Karsus 02-12-08, 12:27 AM	Yes, because it means they simply do nopt have enough talent or imagination to come up with their own material, which is NOT conducive to writing good Fiction. -Was it you, or was it Alediran that stated that there are no more original ideas left out there? Either way, by that logic, there isn't going to be anything that "meets the criteria". 1e Forgotten Realms didn't, 2e didn't, 3e, didn't, 4e isn't going to, and none of the novels- any of them- were written by talented authors. -Elminster? Based on the archetypal sagely wizard. Ed Greenwood is a horrible and unimaginitive author, then. -Khelben? Based on the Christian savior archetype. Steve Schend is a horrible and unimaginitive author, then. -Queen Amlauril? Based on the archetypal sagely matron. Elaine Cunningham is a horrible and unimaginitive author, then. -Erevis Cale? Based on the archetypal emo anti-hero. Paul Kemp is a horrible and unimaginitive author, then. -Araevin Teshurr? Based on the archetypal 'good meets evil, evil triumphs over good, good finds a new power source and triumphs over evil' story. Richard Baker is a horrible and unimaginitive author, then. -If we're going to criticise novels, at least criticise them for the lore/canon contained within, and not on the percieved or actual influences of the story. If anything, points go to the author for being able to inject a deeper meaning (as in an actual deeper meaning, not '...blah, blah, blah, who you are is not skin deep, blah, blah, blah...' into a story without outright messing up other canon, or causing other problems.
MarkusTay63 02-12-08, 12:45 AM	There's a difference between taking a basic story outline (political entity wishes to build major civic project, but is up against oppostion to the project on several fronts), and out-right copying a story's every nuance. I gaurantee I could take that exact same plot, turn it inside and out and back and forth, and come up with a dozen seperate stories that people wouldn't even realize were really one and the same. And I'm just a two-bit hack. :P This is just like what we were talking about in the Maztica thread. Its possible to keep some of the flavor elements of something, and still make it seem fresh and new. Just about any party of adventurers can be compared to the Fellowship of the Ring, but if you actually give your PCs a ring and tell them to throw it in a volcano before the Dark Lord takes over the world, they're are going to start looking for a new DM. However, if you tell them they need to take the Ice Queen's Tiara and shatter it on the alter of time before she blankets the entire north in eternal winter, you got yourself a party. ;)
Lord Karsus 02-12-08, 01:24 AM	There's a difference between taking a basic story outline (political entity wishes to build major civic project, but is up against oppostion to the project on several fronts), and out-right copying a story's every nuance. I gaurantee I could take that exact same plot, turn it inside and out and back and forth, and come up with a dozen seperate stories that people wouldn't even realize were really one and the same. And I'm just a two-bit hack. :P -Like I said, why don't you read it before you comment on it. The only person I know thus far who has actually read it is msatran and has compared it to Rand. Vulpes read it, but doesn't know of Rand and her philosophies. What if (and I'm not saying he is, but) msatran is completely wrong? -And, my current D&D campaign is involving my PCs joining a secret society of good, and aiding in the fight against an evil dictator who was supposedly attacked by Elven terrorists, and as such, is using it as an excuse to depose of the Elven presence in the city, which has a history of Elven-Human racial tensions. There are some similarities to other works of literature, as well as some other worldly themes and events. Am I a bad DM?
MarkusTay63 02-12-08, 01:44 AM	No, I steal almost all of my plots - usually from cartoons, believe it or not - and change them up so much they're unrecognizable. Thats not bad DMing, thats just a 'creative application of available resources'. :D However, I had at least three people tell me the same thing about Watercourse - I'm pretty sure one was female... maybe Rinon? :confused: Then again, I read both Sword of Truth and Wheel of Time novels, and see tons of similar plots, organizations, storylines, and even character names! Even the main plot is identical - Young Man who grows up without a mother (and later finds out his father isn't really his father) finds out he is really the heir to incredible god-like magical powers (that he has no idea how to use)and that he was just 'hidden away' in a remote village his whole childhood so that the 'bad guys' wouldn't find him, and then later is taken in by a group of powerful 'witches' that appear to be his friend, but the only true friend he has among them betrays her sisters and allows him to 'get free', which of course fills him with alll sorts of angst and causes him to wax introspective, so much so that he pushes his friends away so that he can carry his burden alone. Oh yeah, and he falls in love with a beautiful young woman who is also incredibly powerful. :rolleyes: Same exact plot, and yet I enjoy both because many of the small details are different, and the writing styles are completely different. If I read Watercourse (which I doubt I ever will), I would have to read that other work first, just so I have something to compare it to. Otherwise, I may enjoy it, and thats not the point of reading FR novels. ;)
Lord Karsus 02-12-08, 02:07 AM	However, I had at least three people tell me the same thing about Watercourse - I'm pretty sure one was female... maybe Rinon? :confused: -I can't speak for her, but we were talking about said novels when we all got together, so her opinions/facts might have been derived from what msatran mentioned. Even the main plot is identical - Young Man who grows up without a mother (and later finds out his father isn't really his father) finds out he is really the heir to incredible god-like magical powers (that he has no idea how to use)and that he was just 'hidden away' in a remote village his whole childhood so that the 'bad guys' wouldn't find him, and then later is taken in by a group of powerful 'witches' that appear to be his friend, but the only true friend he has among them betrays her sisters and allows him to 'get free', which of course fills him with alll sorts of angst and causes him to wax introspective, so much so that he pushes his friends away so that he can carry his burden alone. -Hmm...Sounds like Harry Potter, from Harry Potter, Drizzt, from the Forgotten Realms and, even the Sailor Scouts, from Sailor Moon. Otherwise, I may enjoy it, and thats not the point of reading FR novels. ;) -Ho ho!
Stigger 02-12-08, 04:10 AM	Sounds more like a classic hero cycle than anything else... everything is ultimately derivative in that respect when it comes to fantasy, as a general rule anyway. Some are just done much better than others.
Lord Karsus 02-12-08, 04:15 AM	-Stig, it's been far too long since gazing upon your luminocity...
Stigger 02-12-08, 04:20 AM	Probably won't be happening much for a while, family issues are keeping me insanely busy... virtually stopped gaming because of it. No real end in sight for it either unless a small miracle happens. :(
Lord Karsus 02-12-08, 04:30 AM	:lightbulb :plotting: -I am Karsus, after all...:) -Well, good luck getting all of that straightened out.
Stigger 02-12-08, 04:39 AM	To be honest, I'm contemplating burning every last bridge with my immediate family over it... gets more and more tempting every day really. Depends on what happens on Friday...
Lord Karsus 02-12-08, 04:54 AM	-Ouch...Well, I have Wand of Maximized Fireball under the "Welcome Mat' if you need to borrow it.
Alediran 02-12-08, 07:44 AM	I was who said: Creativity doesn't resides in making something new, but in giving a new look in an old theme. And a lot of examples in this thread prove that phrase. The creative proces begins by choosing a central idea. Let's take the destruction of an artifact of evil (One Ring, Cadderly two times in Salvatore's Books, plenty other D&D adventures) The next step is creating said artifact, both it's fluff and crunch. Let's chose a classic: The evil sword that forces her owners to kill her friends. This is the first point we should add a twist, because the central idea can't be changed no matter what twists you give it. Let's say the sword can only be destroyed by somebody who never killed a sentient being. At this moment that simple twist opens a whole lot of possibilities. That's where creativity is applied.
MarkusTay63 02-12-08, 09:33 AM	I wrote my thesis on comparitive mythological studies based on Joseph Campbell's book The Hero with a Thousand Faces. Once you read that, you realize they really are all just the same story. ;)
Alediran 02-12-08, 10:21 AM	Or you just read a couple novels with heroes, strip them of every twist they have and you can reach the same conclussion.
MarkusTay63 02-12-08, 04:05 PM	Well, that was back in college, and at least 5000 novels ago. ;)
Stigger 02-12-08, 07:55 PM	I wrote my thesis on comparitive mythological studies based on Joseph Campbell's book The Hero with a Thousand Faces. Once you read that, you realize they really are all just the same story. ;) QFT... that's what I was basing my take on them from. Need to go back and read his books again one of these days, been ages since I looked at them.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 02-13-08, 07:14 PM	-Give the guy some credit. Mind you, the only piece of work of read of him was Annihilation, and the other novels generally get brad reviews by you guys, but...In today's age of Forgotten Realms, there's no reason to be negative when it's not necessarily warranted. We need to keep whatever hope and light that we can. It's a "Points of Light" kind of world out there right now. ;) Indeed. Although, it doesn't help very much that Athans happened to be the author of a bunch of books that I didn't much care for, for one reason or another.:)
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 02-13-08, 07:21 PM	I actually liked the Watercourse trilogy (Shhhh! I don't want Rino to hear!). But, then, I've avoided reading any Ayn Rand; the politics and philosophy of Objectivism gives me hives. I just thought it was really different from any other novels they've put out. Still don't get what the hell was up with that sword and the ghosts, or how the hell the main character guy could be an atheist in frickin' trip-over-a-deity-on-your-morning-walk Faerun, but it was still interesting. :rofl: By the way, I also disliked that series for reasons other than the preachiness and the fact that all the major plot points and characters were taken from another book. For example (and I've mentioned this a few times before) I hated most of the characters, and the protagonist was an "author's darling" to the 100th power. The amount of hate I have for the Phyrea character has become semi-legendary in some parts. She might be the character I hate the most...out of every character I've ever read about. EVER. And she wasn't even supposed to be a villain.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 02-13-08, 07:25 PM	If anything, points go to the author for being able to inject a deeper meaning (as in an actual deeper meaning, not '...blah, blah, blah, who you are is not skin deep, blah, blah, blah...' into a story without outright messing up other canon, or causing other problems. What about the naga character that had hands?:P Given time, I could think of a few other examples. Like how Pristoleph is portrayed in the novel (although to be fair, "canon" disagrees about him, too, LOL). Or how the protagonist fights skillfully and without fear, even though he was trained as an architect and not a soldier (the book never mentions that he had combat training).
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 02-13-08, 07:29 PM	-Like I said, why don't you read it before you comment on it. The only person I know thus far who has actually read it is msatran and has compared it to Rand. Vulpes read it, but doesn't know of Rand and her philosophies. What if (and I'm not saying he is, but) msatran is completely wrong? I've read the trilogy. :) I know of Rand and her philosophies. I will also offer my opinion: I don't think msatran is completely wrong.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 02-13-08, 07:32 PM	To be honest, I'm contemplating burning every last bridge with my immediate family over it... gets more and more tempting every day really. Depends on what happens on Friday... Hey, Stigger, I hope you feel better. *hugs*
Lord Karsus 02-13-08, 08:03 PM	What about the naga character that had hands?:P -That's what happens when Momma Nagas use magic while pregnant. -Let this be an example to everyone. :teach:
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 02-13-08, 08:05 PM	-That's what happens when Momma Nagas use magic while pregnant. -Let this be an example to everyone. :teach: The naga that had hands was my favorite character in the book!:P Great example of monster birth defects, indeed.
Markustay 02-14-08, 12:28 AM	Some Nagas have hands - there are some even pictured that way in SK. Its not natural; they're either a magical device or grafts, but some do have them. Of course, that sort of makes them Yuan-Ti... Or Lamia Nobles. ;)
Lord Karsus 02-14-08, 12:29 AM	Some Ngas have hands - there are some even pictured that way in SK. Its not natural; they're either a magical device or grafts, but some do have them. -There is an item in Savage Species that is basically a magical pair of gloved hands that a creature without hands can 'equip', and thus, have hands.
Vulpes 02-14-08, 12:31 AM	The main character of The Watercours Trilogy (can't even remember his name! Maybe I didn't like the books as much as I thought... *LOL*) was definitely a Gary Stue. But I actually wasn't much interested in him anyway, so just ignored it. I agree, Rino, that the naga was awesome.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 02-14-08, 02:21 PM	The main character of The Watercours Trilogy (can't even remember his name! Maybe I didn't like the books as much as I thought... *LOL*) was definitely a Gary Stue. But I actually wasn't much interested in him anyway, so just ignored it. :rofl: Ivar Devorast. I would have ignored his Gary Stu-ness, myself, but I couldn't. I can't ignore it when the author lets me know every few pages how much of an excellent, amazing, mysterious genius his precious character is. It's characterization like that that causes readers to wonder if a protagonist is really just a fictional stand-in for the author. If the goal is to tell a story and entertain other people, it is not the best time to indulge in an idealized substitute-self. As for nagas having hands--I believe that if an author does something unusual with a character, they should make some mention of it in the text. Otherwise it just looks like a mistake. Maybe an elf character has a legitimate reason for having a furry tail, but why should I be the one to have it make sense? That's the author's job, not the reader's.
Lord Karsus 02-14-08, 02:39 PM	-I hope there wasn't an Elf with a furry tail...:blink:
Alediran 02-14-08, 02:44 PM	A Lythari before completing the Transformation. Or an elf with the Warshaper PrC :P
Lord Karsus 02-14-08, 02:49 PM	A Lythari before completing the Transformation. -Going by canon, Lythari tails are 'bushy', not 'furry'. :teach:
Alediran 02-14-08, 03:02 PM	-Going by canon, Lythari tails are 'bushy', not 'furry'. :teach: I knew, but I wanted to see you doing that :P
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 02-14-08, 03:13 PM	-I hope there wasn't an Elf with a furry tail...:blink: As a matter of fact, there was. Just kidding.:P
Markustay 02-14-08, 03:17 PM	That would make it a Maraloi... But their tails were more like a Lion's, not a squirrel's. :P And of course, the only surviving members of that psuedo-Elven group live in Katashaka (Wakyambi using the wonderful Nyambe rules). That just reminded me of a question I NEED to ask...
Lord Karsus 02-14-08, 03:30 PM	As a matter of fact, there was. -At first glance, I glossed over the 'Just Kidding' part! :embarrass
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 02-14-08, 03:32 PM	-At first glance, I glossed over the 'Just Kidding' part! :embarrass Heeheehee! :rofl: Maybe you should check out this trilogy for yourself, Lord Karsus!:ayyyy!:
Lord Karsus 02-14-08, 03:41 PM	Heeheehee! :rofl: Maybe you should check out this trilogy for yourself, Lord Karsus!:ayyyy!: -I've never actually seen any of the books in stores, believe it or not. I've seen Book I, but I've never actually seen the entire trilogy. And, I don't buy old book series' unless I am able to buy all of them. I don't like cliffhangers.
Markustay 02-14-08, 04:02 PM	I was in the fantasy section at Border's when another customer was looking for it. He asked one of the sales-people about it, and they made him leave the store. :eek: It seems they didn't feel he was fit to shop there any longer... :rolleyes: Just Kidding. :P
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 02-14-08, 04:29 PM	-I've never actually seen any of the books in stores, believe it or not. I've seen Book I, but I've never actually seen the entire trilogy. And, I don't buy old book series' unless I am able to buy all of them. I don't like cliffhangers. Buy 'em online. If you're even interested.:) Markus--Heh. :-p
Andrekan 02-16-08, 09:03 PM	Look up the Septer of the Sorcerer-King or the Talisman of Al'Akbar
Lord Karsus 02-17-08, 09:21 AM	Look up the Septer of the Sorcerer-King or the Talisman of Al'Akbar -Could you stop spamming said items?
MarkusTay63 02-17-08, 11:13 AM	Really - you made me look them them up, thinking they were important for some reason, and they have NO BEARING on anything being discussed. :ahem:
Lord Karsus 02-17-08, 11:26 AM	Really - you made me look them them up, thinking they were important for some reason, and they have NO BEARING on anything being discussed. :ahem: -Are they any good, while we're on the subject? Don't know much about the latter.
Reneshat 02-18-08, 01:20 AM	Wow guys, I was just looking at the Cup and Talisman of Al'Akbar, and you know what? It had nothing to do with anything. They aren't even Realms artifacts. Isn't that amazing!?! :cheer: :love: :w00t: :clap: :bow: :ayyyy!: :bounce: :bravo: Crap, now I forgot the original subject.....
Lord Karsus 02-18-08, 01:29 AM	Crap, now I forgot the original subject..... -It was about being able to link virtually anything to anything else when you have vague, cryptic clues, and are grasping for straws.
MarkusTay63 02-18-08, 02:35 AM	Hence, Andrekan's vague post about linking cryptic, crappy items to this thread. :P Seriously, that book (2e Book of Artifacts) has quite a few FR items (Zakhara, Kara-Tur), but those Artifacts aren't really FR-specific. And the Cup and Talisman thingie is SO RW Christian - its the Holy Grail and a piece of the true cross, revisted. :rolleyes: It does go so far as to reccomend them for Lathander in FR, though (and Pelor, naturally, in GH).
MarkusTay63 02-19-08, 11:20 AM	I'd like to thank Andrekan for being inadvertantly helpful - because of his inane post, I re-read 2e's Book of Artifacts, and came across quite a bit of Torillian Lore I was unaware of. Several of the artifacts are campaign specific, and come with some interesting history. I found the ones from Kara-Tur and Zakhara especially intriguing. :D Look up the Septer of the Sorcerer-King or the Talisman of Al'AkbarYou should really look up that particular one, LK, it was made by the Netherese... to KILL gods. :eek: Wierd thing is, it required so much power, that it drains the life/magic out of everything around it... giving us a second explanation for the Anauroch desert!
Lord Karsus 02-19-08, 11:49 AM	You should really look up that particular one, LK, it was made by the Netherese... to KILL gods. :eek: -I asked like four posts up what that did!
MarkusTay63 02-19-08, 06:34 PM	Well, I was re-reading the entire tome, and that one begins with 'S', soooo.... :rolleyes: It certainly doesn't fit with known lore - it says that Netheril had Sorceror Kings (not Arcanists or Archwizards!), and one of them, Glaeros Lhaerimm, created the artifact to "be rid of meddling gods". He killed many a god's minion while he was working on it (along with all of his apprentices - the device sucks the 'lifeforce' out of things). Eventually the gods attacked him directly (it doesn't say which ones) and destroyed him before he could use the Scepter against them (supposedly, it could suck out the lifeforce of a god as well). It says that the creation process of the Scepter of the Sorceror Kings (which took many years) was responsible for the creation of the Anauroch desert!!! :eek: The only thing I can think of is that he was just one Archwizard who styled himself the 'Sorceror King' of his particular enclave. The bit about the desert is a litlle harder to rectify - perhaps it was that potent artifact that first drew the attention of the Phaerimm, and thereby indirectly caused the eventual destruction of the Netherese and the Anauroch Desert? The decice was lost during the battle, and was last seen in Sembia, of all places... Hmmmmm... methinks I see a reason for the Shades wishing to 'tear that country apart'. :devil:
GothicDan 02-19-08, 07:08 PM	I'm pretty sure the Scepter of the Sorcerer Kings was written up before the travesty that was NEoM.
Lord Karsus 02-19-08, 07:24 PM	It certainly doesn't fit with known lore - it says that Netheril had Sorceror Kings (not Arcanists or Archwizards!), and one of them, Glaeros Lhaerimm, created the artifact to "be rid of meddling gods". -Sorcerer Kings could be stretched into Arcanists, or Archwizards. That book was a generic sourcebook, right? So, perhaps the term 'Arcanist' translated into 'Sorcerer King' in whatever local language it was.
GothicDan 02-19-08, 07:27 PM	The Encyclopedia Magica copied, usually word for word, each magic items' original texts. I recall the Scepter of the Sorcerer Kings from my own copy of EM - so Sorcerer King was the original term used. Like I said, I'm pretty sure it came out before NEoM, so before the terms Archwizard and Arcanist were coined.
Lord Karsus 02-19-08, 07:40 PM	The Encyclopedia Magica copied, usually word for word, each magic items' original texts. I recall the Scepter of the Sorcerer Kings from my own copy of EM - so Sorcerer King was the original term used. Like I said, I'm pretty sure it came out before NEoM, so before the terms Archwizard and Arcanist were coined. -No, no, you misunderstood. The item's write-up was from a Greyhawk supplement, or whatever (what was 'core', back then?). Thus, the 'mistranslation' can be attributed to translations from...Loross to whatever. That's what I meant. An in-game explanation.
GothicDan 02-19-08, 07:41 PM	The Book of Artifacts was core, but back then, core didn't mean Greyhawk. It was a compilation of Artifacts from various settings. :) I like the term Sorcerer King more than Archwizard, anyway. There's so many ways I'd redo Netheril.
Lord Karsus 02-19-08, 07:45 PM	The Book of Artifacts was core, but back then, core didn't mean Greyhawk. It was a compilation of Artifacts from various settings. :) -None the less, the awkward name can simply be written off, in-game, as the translation of 'Arcanist' in the local vernacular.
GothicDan 02-19-08, 07:46 PM	Oh, yeah. Totally. I wasn't aware we were looking for an in-game explanation!
Lord Karsus 02-19-08, 07:51 PM	Oh, yeah. Totally. I wasn't aware we were looking for an in-game explanation! -I stated that a few posts ago!
GothicDan 02-19-08, 08:06 PM	Do you expect me to pay attention to everything you say? Sheesh. *reads Age of Apocalypse, volume 4.*
Lord Karsus 02-19-08, 08:09 PM	Do you expect me to pay attention to everything you say? -Everyone else does. When I open my mouth, masses gather to listen to my every word. They cry tears of bliss when my voice graces their ears. Sheesh. *reads Age of Apocalypse, volume 4.* -The best part. AoA Holocast = awesome. -Have you picked up the New Age of Apocalypse?
GothicDan 02-19-08, 08:10 PM	I haven't. I couldn't find Rise and Fall of the Shi'ar Empire, either. I DID, however, pick up Warsong, which rocked. I love Phoenix stuff.
BadCatMan 02-19-08, 08:13 PM	It certainly doesn't fit with known lore - it says that Netheril had Sorceror Kings (not Arcanists or Archwizards!), and one of them, Glaeros Lhaerimm, created the artifact to "be rid of meddling gods". He killed many a god's minion while he was working on it (along with all of his apprentices - the device sucks the 'lifeforce' out of things). Eventually the gods attacked him directly (it doesn't say which ones) and destroyed him before he could use the Scepter against them (supposedly, it could suck out the lifeforce of a god as well). It says that the creation process of the Scepter of the Sorceror Kings (which took many years) was responsible for the creation of the Anauroch desert!!! :eek: The only thing I can think of is that he was just one Archwizard who styled himself the 'Sorceror King' of his particular enclave. The bit about the desert is a litlle harder to rectify - perhaps it was that potent artifact that first drew the attention of the Phaerimm, and thereby indirectly caused the eventual destruction of the Netherese and the Anauroch Desert? The decice was lost during the battle, and was last see in Sembia, of all places... Hmmmmm... methinks I see a reason for the Shades wishing to 'tear that country apart'. :devil: You know, that all sounds a lot more like the Imaskari - powerful spellcaster creates artifact to slay gods, then is destroyed by said gods in a pre-emptive strike, while the local landscape is transformed into desert by draining magic.
Old Sage 02-19-08, 08:18 PM	-Have you picked up the New Age of Apocalypse?There's a new one?
Lord Karsus 02-19-08, 08:19 PM	I haven't. -It's the story after the end of the AoA, and it features AoA Phoenix and Dark Phoenix, so that makes it automatically decent. The rest of it, however, was a big let down, sadly. I couldn't find Rise and Fall of the Shi'ar Empire, either. -I don't know if that was released in a compilation yet. You know, that all sounds a lot more like the Imaskari - powerful spellcaster creates artifact to slay gods, then is destroyed by said gods in a pre-emptive strike, while the local landscape is transformed into desert by draining magic. -Yes, for all of the atheistic and anti-deity tendencies the Netherese had, I can't think of any specfic instances where the deities lashed out at the arcanists.
Lord Karsus 02-19-08, 08:20 PM	There's a new one? -Yes. Geeze...:P X-Men: The New Age of Apocalypse (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_of_Apocalypse_%28limited_series%29)
GothicDan 02-19-08, 08:21 PM	Besides the Scepter of the Sorcerer Kings... Which predated lore on the Imaskari, I believe. And it has Phoenix in it?! MUST GET NEW AOA!
MarkusTay63 02-19-08, 11:06 PM	I don't know, the fact that it was a staff (even though it was called a scepter), and had a very 'Egyptian' look to it, makes me think of early Mulhorand - but the tie-in to the Imaskari is still there. And yes, that tome came out before any of the Netheril material, and I believe Ed's original concept for the Netherese were more along the lines of 'Sorceror Kings' bearing powerful, magical scepters. Also, a lot of entries are setting-specific, so each one can be taken as canon for its setting - back in 2e, it was all one, big, happy multiverse. I think the lore surrounding it and that guy was just about a single enclave - one that may have had an arcanist originally from Mulhorand (or Imaskar). I've found indications that the Netherese weren't as racially focused as certain other groups, like the Imaskari, or Elves. They pretty much would let anyone with talent become an Arcanist, so that leaves the door wide open for all sorts of 'oddities' springing up amongst them (like the Terraseer). Haven't read any X-Men in about 15 years, or any other Marvel for that matter (except for cross-overs). I just sorta lost interest in the early 90's.
Khaelieth 02-20-08, 08:34 AM	Wow guys, I was just looking at the Cup and Talisman of Al'Akbar, and you know what? It had nothing to do with anything. They aren't even Realms artifacts. Isn't that amazing!?! :cheer: :love: :w00t: :clap: :bow: :ayyyy!: :bounce: :bravo: Crap, now I forgot the original subject..... Aren't they some sort of Elven artifact in the Realms? Not sure at all, correct me if I'm wrong. Also, if killing a deity was as easy as Cyric made it out to be, why are there that many gods?
Old Sage 02-20-08, 10:31 AM	And yes, that tome came out before any of the Netheril material, and I believe Ed's original concept for the Netherese were more along the lines of 'Sorceror Kings' bearing powerful, magical scepters.Ed's thoughts on his version of Netheril:- "The Netheril you saw in print differed in fine detail from my original... [...] Netheril certainly wasn’t modeled on ancient real-world anything, and attempts to draw parallels between real-world places and Netheril are tenuous at best. In Netheril I intended to show the decadence of humans consumed by the desire to “master” magic, and achieve immortality or godhood (or the ability to reshape the world like gods, at a whim), and the contrast between their created worlds (not all floating cities, by the way), with altered gravity and such, and the “other” Netherese living like hardy hunters in the forests, ignored or considered beasts by the archwizards."
GothicDan 02-20-08, 12:02 PM	Man, I wish I could see Ed's original Netheril. :)
Gray Richardson 02-20-08, 12:27 PM	Sounds a little like Gallifrey, I wonder if Ed was a Dr. Who fan?
Lord Karsus 02-20-08, 12:37 PM	Man, I wish I could see Ed's original Netheril. :) -It doesn't include me. Thus, it is inferior.
MarkusTay63 02-20-08, 01:37 PM	As you well know Karsus, you are technically an Interloper. :rolleyes: Hey!... Perhaps the world Karsus is from is the first time 'Abeir' tried to re-merge with Toril! Perhaps Ed's version of Netheril is the original, and when the strange group of Archwizards arrived from an alternate reality (an alternate Netheril?) they 'changed things'. Hmmmm... maybe the Land of Alabaster Towers was the original 'Netherese', and then these powerful mages arrived from the 'Nether' and wiped them out, taking their magic, lands, and perhaps even their name! That means that the "Sorceror Kings" would have been from the earlier Thaeravel civilization. Cool.... :cool: BTW, we get a tiny peak at some of Ed's ideas about Netheril in The Annotated Elminster, and he does talk about Scepter-magic in the notes on Elminster in Myth Drannor. Scepters are supposed to be an item that comes between a wand and a rod - I wonder if the designers will take that into accoount with the new 'magic foci' rules they are doing, or if they intend to just ignore that wonderful piece of original Realms Lore?
GothicDan 02-20-08, 02:31 PM	And of COURSE Ed is a Dr. Who fan. ;) LK: Karsus to me is barely canon. Weird, I know, but he was imported from Dragon Strike. Which was a great game when I was 9, but... Yeah.
MarkusTay63 02-20-08, 02:35 PM	Karsus IS canon, though, but if we work within the new 4e parameters, we can say there were really two different groups that comprised the Netherese, which would fix all the holes in the Lore - including the fact that we have two Wulgreths. :P Just say all the stuff from DragonQuest and it's Enchanted Wood module was from Abeir...
GothicDan 02-20-08, 02:37 PM	Like I said, he's BARELY canon TO ME. Meaning he is, but just barely. :) All of this 4E jazz, though. None of that.
Lord Karsus 02-20-08, 02:44 PM	LK: Karsus to me is barely canon. Weird, I know, but he was imported from Dragon Strike. Which was a great game when I was 9, but... Yeah. -Dragonquest. By that reasoning, the Eldreth Veluuthra is also barely canon, as it made it's debut in the same magazine issue.
GothicDan 02-20-08, 03:16 PM	What? Dragon Strike was a game TSR put out, LK, not a magazine... EDIT: Okay, maybe it was called DragonQuest. But I'm not sure where the magazine thing's coming from...
Lord Karsus 02-20-08, 03:40 PM	EDIT: Okay, maybe it was called DragonQuest. But I'm not sure where the magazine thing's coming from... -Yes, it was Dragonquest, and the adventure module was in the shape of a magazine, so...
GothicDan 02-20-08, 03:49 PM	Pft, you're missing my point. :p
Lord Karsus 02-20-08, 03:50 PM	Pft, you're missing my point. :p -I just explained to you why I called it a magazine.
GothicDan 02-20-08, 05:17 PM	I was referring to the Eldreth Veluuthra part!
Lord Karsus 02-20-08, 06:48 PM	I was referring to the Eldreth Veluuthra part! -No, you weren't. -But, I'll elaborate. Talindra Amalith, one of the Vel’Nikeryma, was in that module, an Elf Ranger/Barbarian (whatever it was) that was opposed to Humanity. Thus, the Eldreth Veluuthra has taken from the same module, along with Karsus, Jingleshod, Wulgreth, the Dire Woods, and so on.
GothicDan 02-20-08, 07:07 PM	Well, I WAS referring to that part. But I had no clue that the basics of the EV were in there! But the anti-human sentiment's always been at least somewhat present in FR lore. The Karsus thing, not so much. But, point taken, captain.
Lord Karsus 02-20-08, 07:20 PM	Well, I WAS referring to that part. -Be clearer, next time. But I had no clue that the basics of the EV were in there! -Yes, very eye opening. But the anti-human sentiment's always been at least somewhat present in FR lore. -The fact that the exact same character, with the same personality, same motivations, etc. exists makes it a little too coincidental to be, you know, based off of, influenced by, and so on. But, point taken, captain. -Y'har...Where be me' sea men? Me crew.
Old Sage 02-20-08, 07:50 PM	Sounds a little like Gallifrey, I wonder if Ed was a Dr. Who fan?Indeed. Although, Ed's Netherese tend to sound more like they follow the mindset of the Master, rather than lawful Time Lords.
russdm 02-26-08, 02:20 PM	Watercourse... WotSQ... Baldur's Gate... We're doomed. :( Reading this made me laugh. When I open my mouth, masses gather to listen to my every word. They cry tears of bliss when my voice graces their ears. Do they really? I don't listen to you. Also, if killing a deity was as easy as Cyric made it out to be, why are there that many gods? So that every little thing has representation with every alignment available. I personally don't see how those references actually connect to the spell plague, the only one I know of that sounds even remotely connected is (Spoiler)The approaching Doom foreseen by Halaster in "Expedition to Undermountain".(/Spoiler)
Lord Karsus 02-26-08, 02:35 PM	Do they really? I don't listen to you. -Indeed, they do. People have even begun stealing bridges from Central and Eastern Europe, just so they can span the Atlantic to come gaze upon me: http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=994517 ...the only one I know of that sounds even remotely connected is (Spoiler)The approaching Doom foreseen by Halaster in "Expedition to Undermountain".(/Spoiler) -Well, it should, because that module was written with the Spellplague, and 4e in mind. I think it'd be a litte...counterproductive for the final couple of 3e products not to begin tying into 4e- especially the campaign specific adventures/modules/sourcebooks.