Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Myomorphas 01-14-07, 06:58 PM	So I went to the book store and bought a, uh... book. I'm very much into the Forgotten Realms shtuff and they didn't have what I was looking for, The Halfling's Gem. So, I ordered it and bought another book to pass the time, Ghostwalker. Well, I'm sixty-some pages into it, and ugh. From what I've read so far, it's incredibly faux paz and altogether uninteresting. And there were a few silly expressions I found in there, one being "roguish knight." If anyone's read this before, can ya tell me what you think of it? Does it get better? Worse? On an unrelated note, though, I went and got Dissolution today. It's a breath of fresh air so far, I'll tell ya what.
The Simbul 01-14-07, 08:29 PM	Actually, we cannot discuss novels on these forums. Its in the FAQ.
Lord Karsus 01-14-07, 09:01 PM	Actually, we cannot discuss novels on these forums. Its in the FAQ. -Actually... Do what? Discuss novels? As long as it's civil and nobody's bashing the novels or the authors, I can let it slide. Folks that break that simple rule will be delt with on the harsh side. I just haven't come up with a decent enough explination just yet. "But Dox, I have a right to express my displeasure!" Sure, you want to rant and gripe, you're free to go put up your own forums. This is the WotC boards, and it SHOULD be pro-WotC. We all WANT people to like it here. (And by that I don't me people who want to be jerks, or break the rules, or Jealous Johnnys who wish THEY are big time D&D authors and feel the need to trash everyone else.) Griefers need not apply.
Dark Wizard 01-14-07, 09:17 PM	Ghostwalker seems far from being a flop. WotC commission the author to write another book and some short stories. So apparently, the company doesn't quite agree with you. As for Dissolution, it's another book about drow, not saying that's bad, but honestly, you find drow just about everywhere in FR nowadays? It's not exactly "fresh" by definition.
Wellin_Adipocere 01-14-07, 09:18 PM	Although it does seem he is slightly bashing Ghostwalker(I mean look at the name of the thread)...which I found was a slower pace but more interesting in the character department.:smirk:
jwanderer5 01-14-07, 11:05 PM	It's pretty good. Finish it and then make your decision on what you think about it. Of course I'm a little biased, cuz my best friend wrote it but as it goes every book is not going to please everyone. He'll probably see this thread and jump in here to post some thoughts soon. Also, what's wrong with "roguish knight"?
Krash 01-14-07, 11:56 PM	This is one that I'm really looking forward to reading once I can find a copy. I'm surprised you don't like it - all the feedback I've seen has been overwhelmingly positive. -- George Krashos
Zanan 01-15-07, 04:17 AM	Not that I am into animes or the like, but the hero of this book reminded me of "Helsing" the anime character (only the looks, of course), and "Van Helsing" the movie chap (again, more the looks than the story). I read "Bloodwalk" soon after and found the similiarities between the two main "heroes" striking, not least as both appeared to actually be Ghostwalkers (S&F-PrC). As for WotSQ, I re-read a number of these novels a wee while ago (for taking / analysing the timeline et al) and while there are obviously some ups and downs (more related to the characters and the story than the authors, IMHO), it generally gives a fine run-down of events.
Seans 01-15-07, 08:29 AM	It's pretty good. Finish it and then make your decision on what you think about it. Of course I'm a little biased, cuz my best friend wrote it but as it goes every book is not going to please everyone. He'll probably see this thread and jump in here to post some thoughts soon. Also, what's wrong with "roguish knight"? Would getting a signed copy be out of the question? :D
Lord Karsus 01-15-07, 10:00 AM	I read "Bloodwalk" soon after and found the similiarities between the two main "heroes" striking, not least as both appeared to actually be Ghostwalkers (S&F-PrC). -I agree. I had an internal debate as to whether or not I actually read Ghostwalker or not, and it turned out that I didn't, and I was only thinking I did because of Bloodwalk.
erikscottdebie 01-15-07, 11:07 AM	He'll probably see this thread and jump in here to post some thoughts soon. I am indeed (hey Jim!), but only to say that I welcome any and all discussion of my work, but that this probably isn't the place to do it, as novel discussions are on pretty thin ice on these boards. I recommend creation of a thread on Candlekeep (http://forum.candlekeep.com) for addressing any Ghostwalker questions. I am a frequent contributor. Also, what's wrong with "roguish knight"? Dunno -- seems wordy to me. Wasn't really content with the phrase myself. I avoid that sort of thing in my writing these days. Not that I am into animes or the like, but the hero of this book reminded me of "Helsing" the anime character (only the looks, of course), and "Van Helsing" the movie chap (again, more the looks than the story). I wouldn't say that anime inspired me -- but I'd go with movies. It's a mix of "The Crow" and "Desperado," with some serious Western influences ("High Plains Drifter" is usually the one I cite). I read "Bloodwalk" soon after and found the similiarities between the two main "heroes" striking, not least as both appeared to actually be Ghostwalkers (S&F-PrC). They are indeed both ghostwalkers. Bloodwalk and Ghostwalker might contain similarities because they were both originally pitches for the same novel ("Ghostwalker"). Wizards liked both, kept mine as-was, and had James rework his so it focused on the villain (a Blood Magus) instead of the hero (a ghostwalker). That said, they are very different novels. James's has high magic, and mine doesn't. Comparing and contrasting the two ghostwalkers is an excellent thought exercise. It's a great PrC. Perhaps we'll see the 3.5 version someday? Would getting a signed copy be out of the question? :D Nope. Either come to one of my signings (to be announced in February, I think) or catch me at GenCon. :) Cheers
Zanan 01-15-07, 12:52 PM	It's a great PrC. Perhaps we'll see the 3.5 version someday? Well, the 3E version just needs to be tweaked with regard to one class skill that no longer exists, i.e. Intuit Direction. Subbed with Survival and the class can go on. Maybe that is the reason why it hasn't been "converted" officially as yet.
MarkusTay63 01-15-07, 01:15 PM	I applaud your bravery for entering a clearly biased (titled) thread to defend your work Erik; you do so with the Aplomb of a true Gentleman. Obviously the similarities between the two books is not your fault (directly), but perhaps WotC should be more careful in the future handing out such similar writing asignments. I think folks might have a problem with 'roguish knight' because they are basing their preconceptions on the historic 'chivalric knight'. That knight was for the most part fictional, and is what our Paladin class is based on. True historic knights were just as dirty, smelly, and ornery as any other soldier, they just had better equipmant and training. So 'roguish knight' doesn't fit into their Arthurian mindset, whereas that epithet probably better describes the wenching and carousing warriors that actually existed. Just my :twocents:
erikscottdebie 01-15-07, 02:51 PM	I applaud your bravery for entering a clearly biased (titled) thread to defend your work Erik; you do so with the Aplomb of a true Gentleman. Why thank you, sir! (It's either bravery or foolhardiness -- I suppose we'll have to see. ;) ) And I'm not so much interested in defending my work as participating in a dialogue so as to allow people to express their concerns and opinions, from which I can learn. I value all feedback on my writing and I am constantly incorporating such criticism to perfect my style. That said, I do make a distinction between "unabashed criticism" and "constructive criticism," and value the latter much more than the former. Clearly, it's more helpful for me than "This sucks!" or even "This is great!" (The "this is great!" kind of review only tells me that what I did was for the best. It doesn't tell me specifically what worked.) I treasure specificity in reviews as well: "I didn't like how _____ did _____. I thought it was much more logical that ________ . . ." etc. So 'roguish knight' doesn't fit into their Arthurian mindset, whereas that epithet probably better describes the wenching and carousing warriors that actually existed. And certainly describes the character in question. ;) As far as my own reading about knights and "chivalry" goes, knights were more like they in Martin's ASoIaF than fairy tales. (I mean, they're called *fairy tales* -- c'mon.) I think another objection is to the use of the word "roguish," as it can make sentences somewhat cumbersome: "The roguish knight did this," "the roguish knight did that." I agree that, in general, the phrase isn't necessarily helpful -- it's included strictly as an identifier (Derst), much like saying "the ghostwalker did this" (Walker). I made my best effort not to include it unless necessary. My fault for using awkward pronouns. :) Cheers
EytanBernstein 01-15-07, 03:35 PM	I thought the novel was freakin awesome. Nuff said. Well, maybe not enough said. I really thought the character development was stellar, the tension and pain palpable, and the villains deliciously evil.
Faraer 01-15-07, 03:38 PM	If everyone could discuss novels sensibly, rather than judging the book without reading most of it, dramatizing personal responses into dismissal of the work itself, and comparing everything adversely to books with drow in them, we'd still be allowed to discuss them here. In the Realms, the armoured aristocratic horseman is just one sense of 'knight'; it has a broader connotation than in our world.
MarkusTay63 01-15-07, 04:08 PM	Why thank you, sir! (It's either bravery or foolhardiness -- I suppose we'll have to see. ;) )I haven't read the novel myself, but it will be the next I pick up at the bookstore. Unfortunately, because you are developing new characters and concepts the first few chapters will almost certainly move slowly. Using established characters (as in Mr. Salvatore's work) allows the writer to 'jump-into' the action much more quickly. This is a very tough thing to balance; you want in-depth character development but don't want to bore the reader for the first five chapters. The Gormenghast Trilogy comes to mind for me. Whilst many folks have told me it is a great story, I couldn't get past the first book; in fact, I put it down half-way through because the author was STILL describing characters/settings in MINUTE detail. There must be a balance to how much background you need before diving into the story. Another literary device is to start the story in the middle, and fill in the pieces that have already happened as you go along. This is what I am reading currently in Evermeet, which is my personal favorite way of story-telling. It sucks you in before the characters are fleshed out. Either way, I am looking forward to reading your work. ;)
erikscottdebie 01-15-07, 04:43 PM	Unfortunately, because you are developing new characters and concepts the first few chapters will almost certainly move slowly. Using established characters (as in Mr. Salvatore's work) allows the writer to 'jump-into' the action much more quickly. This is a very tough thing to balance; you want in-depth character development but don't want to bore the reader for the first five chapters. ... There must be a balance to how much background you need before diving into the story. An excellent point. I very much agree. We'll see what you think of how I introduce characters. In general, I like to present characters as though they already exist and do away with unnecessary exposition aside from description that comes up as they do things. ("Arya brushed crimson hair back from her face," would be your first indication she's a redhead, for instance.) My latest short story, 'The Hunting Game' (Realms of the Elves), hardly describes the heroine (she's called the Fox-at-Twilight) at all until it's someone else looking at her (someone she's never met). I do much the same thing in Depths of Madness, which is coming out in March . . . with the same character, actually. :) Another literary device is to start the story in the middle, and fill in the pieces that have already happened as you go along. This is what I am reading currently in Evermeet, which is my personal favorite way of story-telling. It sucks you in before the characters are fleshed out. Ah, in media res (Latin, "in the middle of things"). A technique perfected by Homer, actually -- The Iliad makes use of that style of narrative. I think we have something in common, good sir. Either way, I am looking forward to reading your work. ;) I am honored. :D Cheers
Lord Karsus 01-15-07, 05:40 PM	If everyone could discuss novels sensibly, rather than judging the book without reading most of it, dramatizing personal responses into dismissal of the work itself, and comparing everything adversely to books with drow in them, we'd still be allowed to discuss them here. -That's not what they said when they took it away though, if you remember. Apparently, they were going to take the novels threads away regardless, as it was something WotC did not want to support anymore. Of course, I don't buy that either...
Myomorphas 01-15-07, 08:47 PM	Alright, now that I'm using my head, I realize that I kinda approached this a bit rudely (the title, and a few other things I could've reworded). Sorry for that, but here are my thoughts on the roguish knight! 'Roguish' didn't really seem like a term that someone would relate to in that context. For just about all of us here, of course, the image of someone 'roguish' would automatically pop into our heads; a humanoid who maneuvers with great agility and flow (or a shadowy, cloaked one, depending on the context). Someone who isn't an avid fantasy reader--or even one that is but who's never come across rogue used that way--would probably stumble when that phrase is mentioned. "Roguish? So... he's a hooligan? He's not loyal to these Knights in Silver people? Or does he look like that one dudette from X-Men??" In short... corny. :D That's my two cents, at least. But I suppose I'll keep readin' the book. I just hope I'm past the whole Greyt talking on and on and on parts. :rolleyes:
erikscottdebie 01-15-07, 09:03 PM	'Roguish' didn't really seem like a term that someone would relate to in that context. For just about all of us here, of course, the image of someone 'roguish' would automatically pop into our heads; a humanoid who maneuvers with great agility and flow (or a shadowy, cloaked one, depending on the context). Someone who isn't an avid fantasy reader--or even one that is but who's never come across rogue used that way--would probably stumble when that phrase is mentioned. "Roguish? So... he's a hooligan? He's not loyal to these Knights in Silver people? Or does he look like that one dudette from X-Men??" In short... corny. :D That's my two cents, at least. Ah, that makes a great deal of sense. Thank you for the feedback. But I suppose I'll keep readin' the book. I just hope I'm past the whole Greyt talking on and on and on parts. :rolleyes: Thanks! I hope you enjoy it more as time goes on. As to Greyt's talking -- no promises, unfortunately. But the number and length of soliloquoys gets lower, after we get past the indirect stuff. :) Cheers
Harrowdroth 01-16-07, 03:32 AM	by "Roguish Knight" I got the picture of a weasely dude, not "roguish" as in Chaotic or a thief, but Roguish looking.
erikscottdebie 01-16-07, 11:14 AM	by "Roguish Knight" I got the picture of a weasely dude, not "roguish" as in Chaotic or a thief, but Roguish looking. And that was my intention. :) Cheers
WizO_Shadow 01-16-07, 02:03 PM	I would like to applaud you as well for contributing to these forums in a positive manner! Renee Shadow I am indeed (hey Jim!), but only to say that I welcome any and all discussion of my work, but that this probably isn't the place to do it, as novel discussions are on pretty thin ice on these boards. I recommend creation of a thread on Candlekeep (http://forum.candlekeep.com) for addressing any Ghostwalker questions. I am a frequent contributor. Dunno -- seems wordy to me. Wasn't really content with the phrase myself. I avoid that sort of thing in my writing these days. I wouldn't say that anime inspired me -- but I'd go with movies. It's a mix of "The Crow" and "Desperado," with some serious Western influences ("High Plains Drifter" is usually the one I cite). They are indeed both ghostwalkers. Bloodwalk and Ghostwalker might contain similarities because they were both originally pitches for the same novel ("Ghostwalker"). Wizards liked both, kept mine as-was, and had James rework his so it focused on the villain (a Blood Magus) instead of the hero (a ghostwalker). That said, they are very different novels. James's has high magic, and mine doesn't. Comparing and contrasting the two ghostwalkers is an excellent thought exercise. It's a great PrC. Perhaps we'll see the 3.5 version someday? Nope. Either come to one of my signings (to be announced in February, I think) or catch me at GenCon. :) Cheers
erikscottdebie 01-16-07, 02:17 PM	I would like to applaud you as well for contributing to these forums in a positive manner! Renee Shadow Why thank you, Mistress Shadow. I was wondering if this thread would end up locked/deleted, as it seems to tread very thin ice so far as WotC's policy toward novel discussion goes, and I will be neither surprised nor disheartened if it succumbs to that fate. I am honored to be a guest and appreciate the reception. If, on the other hand, the thread is granted a stay of execution, one might want to alter the title of the thread. "Ghostwalker novel discussion" is my suggestion. Thanks also to the participants of this thread, who have exercised maturity and positivity, and I'd like to encourage such to continue. We wouldn't want to be biting anyone's hands or raising a stink. Cheers P.S. And always, if this thread goes the way of the Netherese, swing over to Candlekeep (http://forum.candlekeep.com), or even my blog (http://eriksdb.livejournal.com), Sors Imanis et Inanis, if you'd like.
WizO_Shadow 01-16-07, 02:18 PM	Now that I have read the thread in detail, some things to keep in mind. 1. I edited the title. See above & below for reasons if you need one. 2. While my promoting authors coming on here openly and positively discussing works, it is by no means an endorsement to flood the forums with novel discussions. Please remember that the novel discussion is on very thin ice. 3. Thank you ALL for being able to critique and compare on a mature level with constructive feedback. Out of all the things that are needed, constructive feedback, expressed unbiasedly, is perfect. As erikscottdebie pointed out for an example: I treasure specificity in reviews as well: "I didn't like how _____ did _____. I thought it was much more logical that ________ . . ." etc... Is perfect. Renee Shadow [edit] apparently erikscottdebie and I like to post at the same time ;) I'm going to try and keep it open for now but I can't promise anything.
erikscottdebie 01-16-07, 02:53 PM	3. Thank you ALL for being able to critique and compare on a mature level with constructive feedback. Out of all the things that are needed, constructive feedback, expressed unbiasedly, is perfect. The discussion of "roguish knight" definitely falls into that category, I believe. :) apparently erikscottdebie and I like to post at the same time ;) I'm going to try and keep it open for now but I can't promise anything. I appreciate your efforts. And call me Erik. ;) Cheers
Myomorphas 01-16-07, 06:40 PM	I appreciate the change in the title. I was just blowing off some smoke that night. But as for another thing I'd like to add (yeah, I'm still ranting about the roguish knight :P), it seems to be on or quite close to the same level as a wizard saying how many spells he has prepared or a paladin yelling "Lay on hands!" as he, well... casts lay on hands on a dying ally. I'm not quite sure how to elaborate on that, but I think you get the gist of what I'm saying. P.S. -- Thank goodness you didn't use "hit points." ;)
Ateth_Istarlin 01-17-07, 03:29 AM	I must say that I really enjoyed "Ghostwalker" - I found myself wishing for a sequel after finishing it! But, "Bloodwalk" was not as good - maybe its just me, but I expected a novel in a series entitled "The Wizards" to feature a wizard as the main hero - "Bloodwalk" felt like just another in "The Warriors" series to me (although I suppose it did make up for "Master of Chains" - NOT my favorite FR novel:) ).
erikscottdebie 01-17-07, 02:46 PM	I do get the gist of what you're saying, and I pretty much agree. I used the term only to identify the character in the mess of knights who were wandering around on any given page, but I could've done it with more grace. I think I did that better in my latest book, actually. :) P.S. -- Thank goodness you didn't use "hit points." ;) Oh dear gods -- now THAT would be way cheesy. I must say that I really enjoyed "Ghostwalker" - I found myself wishing for a sequel after finishing it! Why thank you! I'm glad you enjoyed. A sequel, eh? Hmm . . . I confess to a great deal of thinking on this subject, but I'm curious: How do you think the novel would best be followed up? Cheers
Wolfrunner 01-17-07, 03:28 PM	I can personaly think of two ways to do a sequel: 1) Do a prequel useing the female Knight or the training that the main character goes through to learn Ghostwalking. 2) Could he pull an Elminster and be drifting around in some other plane?Afterall he is a ghostwalker, would it be possible for him to work more closely with the knights of Silverymoon if he is? Of course I can also think of fallbacks to both senarios: 1) We already know what happens when the dust settles, does the beginning really matter when we've seen the end? 2) Would make the first book seriously anti climactic, unless you wanted to do a 'years later' thing. Those are just my thoughts on the whole thing, have to say that Ghostwalker was propably my favorite of the Warriors. Wolf
MarkusTay63 01-17-07, 05:34 PM	I finally understand what Myomorphas was getting at! I have been an avid fantasy/Sci-fi reader for over 30 years and never even identified 'roguish' with the D&D character class. I suppose those fans of the genre who found their way to us solely through the D&D game would perhaps see it that way. For me, the 'Rogue' class is a new-fangled thing, I still think of him as a 'Thief' myself. But even being 'old school' I don't feel I would think of the character class if a person were talking about someone's 'thieving ways'. I think maybe some fans need to read a broader range of literature. As far as ideas go, I really don't like prequels, for the same reason that I don't like trilogies (multi-ologies). As mentioned above, it is rather hard to develop any real feeling for a character when you know he is going to live. If you know he will survive EVERY encounter (to live until the next book) where is the fun in that? I've very rarely seen prequels done well, and the time frame between the books normally needs to be enormous to be interesting. Also, not having read Eriks work yet, a character needs to have a lot of 'loose ends' in his back-story to make it prequel-worthy. Drizzt (sorry for referring to the most over-used stereotype in gaming today) was worth a prequel because people really wanted to know how how exactly does a Drow leave everything he knows behind? Elves are always better for that sort of thing because you can go back a whole century (or five). Give us a sequel, and then have the character die doing something EPIC, like saving an entire city. Not only will your readers be surprised, you will be popping the evil 'trilogy' bubble. Imagine a series only being two books long... you'll be a pioneer! Unfortunately, if you listen to me I just gave the ending away.:P Real heroes die; keep it real. ;)
erikscottdebie 01-17-07, 06:05 PM	Ooh! Good thoughts! I think maybe some fans need to read a broader range of literature. Now now, let's be nice -- that was a legitimate concern he raised. And I don't think it was entirely the rogue class, so much as being just an odd descriptor. For instance, you might say to your friends, "hey, look at that squirmy guy over there!" But you wouldn't thenceforth think of his actions as "and then the squirmy guy did this," and "the squirmy guy did that." You'd think, "Larry did this," etc. If you know he will survive EVERY encounter (to live until the next book) where is the fun in that? Hey -- it's not the survival that counts. It's the STATE of the character that counts. What s/he learns, how s/he changes, whether you really WANT the hero to live or die . . . and also what s/he is getting out of encounters. If she has to win a battle to save someone you really care about, then that's still tense and exciting, regardless of whether the hero lives or not. Also, a good selling point for having multiple characters who seem to be the *main character.* Real heroes die; keep it real. Ha! True that, my friend. Elves are always better for that sort of thing because you can go back a whole century (or five). Funny you should say that. Twilight's an elf. ..... Do a prequel useing the female Knight or the training that the main character goes through to learn Ghostwalking. Let's just say that I really like this idea . . . but I'm thinking more along the lines of anthologies than novels. :) Cheers
MarkusTay63 01-17-07, 06:48 PM	Ooh! Good thoughts! Now now, let's be nice -- that was a legitimate concern he raised. And I don't think it was entirely the rogue class, so much as being just an odd descriptor.I was trying to figure out a 'nicer' way of putting that, sorry. It's just that I have met some people personally who's only contact with fantasy has been through this game, and I am only expressing my concern that they are 'missing-out' as it were. Chaucer, Homer, H.G.Wells, etc... there is just such a plethora of excellent stories out there that one needn't limit one's self to FR novels. No insult intended, just me expressing myself poorly. :( I understand the sentiments of Myomorphas precisely, if I read ANY novel that contains the line "with a roguish grin" I get nauseous (and GOD, I hope you didn't use it otherwise I am currently taking my foot from my mouth). Its just that I have recently finished book Eleven of a certain series (just end it already!) and the author must have used 'roguish' to describe a specific character about 50 times! Don't worry, it was non-WotC, and I really don't mind ANY word or descriptor, just don't beat it to death like that. Anthologies are GOOD. They are like tiny little windows into our favorite character's pasts. I forsee a short story entitled "Walking with Ghosts", and I haven't even read the main work yet. :D
Dark Wizard 01-17-07, 09:39 PM	Its just that I have recently finished book Eleven of a certain series (just end it already!) ... Gee, there are so many decently well known series with exactly 11 books in them so far. I wonder which series you're referring to.... :D
MarkusTay63 01-18-07, 09:16 AM	I don't mind reading about my favorite characters until the end of time, but they should at least wrap-up a story-line occasionally! It's like watching your favorite TV show and it gets cancelled befor they ever do a final episode. At least with Japanime the series has pre-ordained run-time with a beginning and an ending, regardless of how popular the show is. Can you think of any American cartoons that ever have an ending? The evil American Entertainment organization has decided people DON'T need closure! WTF?! I sure as hell do! Does Pandora EVER get to like Darren? Does Gilligan ever get off that island (or at least tap Maryanne)? Does Major Nelson EVER let Genie use her powers and have wild crazy sex with her? Does Batman ever get into Robins tighty whiteys? Okay, that last one I can live without knowing.... :rolleyes: And I'm pretty sure they did a movie ten years later where they get off the island. Anyway, my point is that stories have to have an ENDING. The only worse offense then that is when they un-do the ending just to bring back characters/villains/locations; that is SO cheesy.
erikscottdebie 01-18-07, 07:37 PM	At least with Japanime the series has pre-ordained run-time with a beginning and an ending, regardless of how popular the show is. NGE, for instance. And they've run into a difficult spot, doing follow-ups. I don't know if you've been keeping up on that particular news, but they're releasing four new movies, both retelling and re-ending the story. But I digress. We're talking about Wizards here, not Gainax. Anyway, my point is that stories have to have an ENDING. The only worse offense then that is when they un-do the ending just to bring back characters/villains/locations; that is SO cheesy. I'm so much in agreement with you it's not even funny. ;) Which is another thing about continuing Ghostwalker -- that book had an ending. I'll go so far as to claim that it was a *good* ending. Not the ending you wanted, necessarily, but the ending that *had* to be there. I initially wrote it with a different, cheesier ending, and decided no -- no, this is how it gots t'be. And I wouldn't want to spoil that ending in any of the ways you mentioned. However, I think I've come up with just the solution. Guess we'll see if/when Wizards lets me write it. ;) Cheers
MarkusTay63 01-19-07, 01:44 AM	Yes, you can write as many novels about the same character as you want, just make sure EACH has its own ending (or at least, an ending, if not THE ending). The series I mentioned earlier is obviously WoT, and the first book had a definate ENDING, which was great! Now it just seems to drag on like some sort of super-fantastical soap opera. SoT is another series like that. Those books at least each have their own ending, althought the main characters NEVER EVER Make it home. I feel bad for Richard Rahl, the guy hasn't had the chance to get a decent nights sleep in like 5 years. Maybe THAT author could at least give him a day or two of rest before the next time one of his loved ones is kidnapped? At the risk of sounding Childish, the Harry Potter novels are well written. definate endings, excellent charater development, plenty of fantastical settings and action, and best of all - SHE'S NOT AFRAID TO KILL PEOPLE! All that, in a childrens series! I hated the ending of the last book, but it was 'bloody brilliant'; Didn't see that coming at all. Finished Evermeet, starting El in Hell, should have your book by Monday Erik, looking forward to it.
erikscottdebie 01-19-07, 12:26 PM	Yes, you can write as many novels about the same character as you want, just make sure EACH has its own ending (or at least, an ending, if not THE ending). Indeed. Much in agreement. I really liked the ending of Depths of Madness, actually (which you'll be able to see in March), for a very similar reason. Finished Evermeet, starting El in Hell, should have your book by Monday Erik, looking forward to it. Yay! I'm honored. We'll see what you think of the ending. Cheers
Faraer 01-19-07, 03:22 PM	Anyway, my point is that stories have to have an ENDING.But not a pat, overneat, total ending, because all the published stories are part of the larger composite story of the Realms. And in worldbuilding terms, books should start as many stories as they end. I find the word 'closure' a monumental piece of ugly American cant: a need for artificial simplicity, consolation, and order.
MarkusTay63 01-19-07, 04:20 PM	But not a pat, overneat, total ending, because all the published stories are part of the larger composite story of the Realms. And in worldbuilding terms, books should start as many stories as they end. I find the word 'closure' a monumental piece of ugly American cant: a need for artificial simplicity, consolation, and order.True Enough, but when you kill someone important or destroy a city, leave it that way. Zhentil Keeps 'meteoric' return made me nauseous. Like I said, each of the stories in the SoT novels has its own ending, but there is always a new plot hovering in the background AND a massive OVERPLOT that runs through the books (in the case of that series, the ever-present evil empire). I enjoyed the Cleric Quintet VERY much, because each book had a seperate ending, and the over-story was finally wrapped up completely by the end of the fifth book. When you can take a book OUT OF a series and read it seperately, then it is a triumph of writing style. This is the BIG problem I have with the Wheel of Time series; when a book NEEDS an index in the back to keep track of all the characters you know something has gone terribly wrong. There are so many sub-plots going on at once that the author can no longer write more then a couple chapters concerning each. It's like the story is just spinning its wheels right now. Sometimes characters are missing from an entire book and then re-appear in the next, and I no longer even remember who or what they were. I feel like I'm just reading them now because I want to finish it, not because I'm still enjoying it. Thats an awful way to feel about a series of novels I really like (and I do). I do like the 'Epic' feel of them, but an auther shouldn't introduce new characters and sub-plots until the hundred or so that already exist are wrapped up. An example of a perfect book in my opinion - Empire of the East by Fred Saberhagen. Three seperate novelas, each building up the next, and then DONE. The story was brilliant AND original, the writing superb, and it was SO complete that I wasn't left wanting at all when it was over. Sheer perfection. I'm trying to think of a series that is linked, but the main characters change every so often. That would be fun, something spanning generations. I've NEVER read ANY Dragonlance stuff (weird, I know), but I get the impression that some of them do that (Ages and all that). I would love to read a trilogy, and then have the charcters just be 'background' for a new group of adventurers in the next series. You know, like the hero of one book coming back as the grandfather (and teacher) of the new hero. Anyone know any series like that? That wouldn't work very well in FR, because you would have to either extend the timeline (bad idea) or add to the past (workable, maybe).
Faraer 01-19-07, 04:55 PM	Let's start a new thread about this so this one stays on Erik's book.
MarkusTay63 01-20-07, 01:36 AM	Ah, Okay. I thought this became the "Creative advice for new authors" thread. The title change threw me. My bad. :(
MarkusTay63 07-13-07, 01:50 AM	I finally got the book Erik, and I'll be starting it tonight. :D (It took my local borders forever to get it in).
erikscottdebie 07-13-07, 10:20 AM	I finally got the book Erik, and I'll be starting it tonight. :D (It took my local borders forever to get it in). I hope you enjoy. Cheers
MerrikCale 07-13-07, 09:32 PM	I finally got the book Erik, and I'll be starting it tonight. :D (It took my local borders forever to get it in). you will. have you tried Depths of Madness yet? Loved that one
MarkusTay63 07-14-07, 03:33 AM	you will. have you tried Depths of Madness yet? Loved that oneNo, but its on my list, along with just about every other FR novel I haven't gotten too. I had to special order Faces of Deception from Borders, and it cost me $12.50 'cause it's out of print. They said three weeks, so I might try Madness between this one and that, along with Waterdeep - I can't believe I missed that one.
MerrikCale 07-14-07, 09:36 AM	No, but its on my list, along with just about every other FR novel I haven't gotten too. I had to special order Faces of Deception from Borders, and it cost me $12.50 'cause it's out of print. They said three weeks, so I might try Madness between this one and that, along with Waterdeep - I can't believe I missed that one. why not try ordering off of amazon for those out of printers, often they are relatively inexpensive used. Waterdeep was solid. I liked Depths of Madness a lot though. There's some 'bout Twilight that I like, and the introduction of Warlocks and Goliaths to the Realms was done well
MarkusTay63 07-14-07, 12:35 PM	I hate Goliaths. I think they were nothing more then filler material for RoS - they needed a new race and couldn't come up with anything better then ANOTHER race of Giants?! :confused: The giants have more then twice as many sub-races as Elves as it is, the last thing we need is a "poor man's" version. Goat Ball was funny though. ;) Enjoying the book BTW, Erik - it's dark, and I like dark.... :devil:
MerrikCale 07-14-07, 02:47 PM	I hate Goliaths. Goliaths are alright, the Illumians or whatever from RoD were bad
MarkusTay63 07-15-07, 03:09 AM	Its called "filler", and the Illumians were just a copy&paste of the Elans from the EPH; whats the point of two seperate races that are just like humans with psionics, but are not human. One race like that would have been one too many. Two is just rubbing our faces in it. If a designer can't come out with something more original then a 'human', there's something seriously wrong there. All that being said, I suppose at least Goliaths try to be original, even though at least two dozen other races occupy the same exact niche in the food chain. Plus, I suppose I would use them, but not exactly as intended (giants living in mountains is SO overdone). BTW, this is really the wrong thread for this discussion. ;) - I am enjoying the book though. I don't want to get too far into it because I'm saving it for when I go away next week and have NO COMPUTER for THREE DAYS!!! :eek:
Eltorion 07-15-07, 02:08 PM	Ya i was about to buy it cause they didn't have the halfing's gem but i just chose to wait is it good or bad
MarkusTay63 07-15-07, 02:15 PM	So far I'm liking it, but I'm not very far in. If you like 'dark', then you'll enjoy it - it begins pretty grim.
Eltorion 07-15-07, 09:37 PM	Ok thx alot!
jwanderer5 07-15-07, 10:14 PM	Depths of Madness is easily the darker of the two novels, although a bit harder to fully grasp, since it deals with the difficult subject of madness. Also, after reading either of the two novels, each had a short story that Wizards posted in the novels section. The Ghostwalker short story should definatly be read after the novel, but the DoM can be read before or after. Plus Twilight is also in Erik's short story in Realms of the Elves, chronologically happening after DoM.