Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Charles Phipps 10-20-07, 05:02 PM	While it's not strictly time line accurate, I'm going to be running the Harper Schism as part of my games. Basically, as all Hell breaks loose, Khelban Blackstaff chooses to withdraw him and the majority of the "named" Realms Harpers of note (Larael, The Lady Lord of Arabel, etc). One of my players is particularly infamous for being an "ends justify the means" type of fellow and neutral in alignment. So, I was all set for him to join the Moonstars when Khelben explained the nature of his plans and the group. That was when the PC flat out walked out and told Khelben that they were neither friends nor allies anymore. He got a good RPGing line out of it like, "I'd rather work with people who are unsuccessful idealists than successful men who treat others like chess pawns." Well that throws a lot of my campaign plans for a loop because I was going to run a lot of morally ambiguous missions in the future. Also, the PC is now no longer allies with most of his former associates and says he'll be actively hostile to them from this point on. It's a subtle change but a big one to my games. I'm not sure how to cope honestly (then again-I never did like how the Harper Schism seemed so utterly behind Khels either) So, what are some odd moments from your games?
johnkretzer 10-20-07, 05:14 PM	I usualy don't have these moments as I don't expect my players to do anything. There are some old sayings 1) No plan survives contact with the DM 2) No plan survives contact with the players Though my favorite is this one. 3) No plan survives contact. Though I'll add I happen to love it when my players do a 180 on me. It keeps the game interesting for me.
Another Gnome 10-20-07, 06:03 PM	The version I've heard is, "The best laid plans fall apart the moment initiative is rolled." :P
johnkretzer 10-20-07, 07:29 PM	The version I've heard is, "The best laid plans fall apart the moment initiative is rolled." :P I like that one. Though it is a little too optimistic As seen plans get messed up before that point. Though I am thinking of a new: No plan survives contact with the game designer/authors. :P
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 10-20-07, 10:58 PM	By the way, Charles, I rather like the direction in which that story turned.
Fingoldfin 10-21-07, 08:25 PM	I ran an evil game around the Lake of Steam a few years ago. The PCs went to Mintar to get work as mercs and Darkhope's army. The patron deities of the PCs were Velsharoon, Shar, and Talos. The group did not like that the church of Bane ruled the city, but they worked for them to gain money and power. They worked their way up in the Zhentlar and Keldor Darkhope sent them on a mission to kill "Blacksnake." Blacksnake was an old adventuring buddy of Darkhope's and he was telling Semmenon his secrets. I expected the group to kill Blacksnake and anger Semmenon. Instead, they went to Blacksnake and worked with him to fake his murder by them in public. He helped them contact Semmenon who agreed to help them find a way to kill Darkhope and take over Mintar. I loved what they did I just had no idea they would do it.
Charles Phipps 10-22-07, 03:03 PM	Yes, though I'd welcome any suggestions on how to deal with the Moonstars/Harper split in the game since the player characters have come down squarely now on the side of the regular Harpers with Khelben no longer an ally or friend. Given they lived in Shadowdale and were heroes of it, it's interesting to wonder the reprocussions. Especially, given Sylune resigned from the Harpers over it and they were once friends.
Scathlock 10-22-07, 06:27 PM	Oh ja, I hate this too. when they really get me by doing the unexpected I react with theatrically shredding my notes and tossing the paperscraps in the air. My kind of praise :bow: for them. Because deep down I most often love this at least as much as I hate it. One question, Charles, what role do your players have? Are they movers and shakers and kind of senior members and deep into harper schemes and secrets or more like adventuring harper agents? Because the latter situation would be much easier to solve, I think.
Charles Phipps 10-22-07, 06:41 PM	They're pretty much the Realms resident superheroes. Whenever the world is having a truly :censored: day with evil plots and cataclysmic summonings, the player characters have often been called in to deal with the horror. They've lost members and often done so by the skin of their teeth rather than through superior power but even if they aren't the most high level guys in FR. They've achieved a pretty lasting fame across the Realms.
AffableDoomwalker 10-22-07, 11:48 PM	Yes, though I'd welcome any suggestions on how to deal with the Moonstars/Harper split in the game since the player characters have come down squarely now on the side of the regular Harpers with Khelben no longer an ally or friend. Given they lived in Shadowdale and were heroes of it, it's interesting to wonder the reprocussions. Especially, given Sylune resigned from the Harpers over it and they were once friends. The issue here is that methinks your player is jumping the gun a bit, being "hostile" towards... you know... an archmage-chosen-legendary-epic-lolmaster. But really, there's not a formula for dealing with this sort of thing, just have the world react as you deem it would react, and roll with it, just let it flow.
Charles Phipps 10-23-07, 12:16 AM	I asked my players about it and it boils down to the fact that they tend to think Fzoul is a lot, LOT smarter than Khelben. It's an odd reaction to be sure, but they think that he's basically condemned the Eastern portion of Faerun to conquest by the Banites. Oddly, the timeline seems to back it up being a royal mistake on Khel's part. But yes, hostility to Khel doesn't seem to be very smart since Cloak and Dagger treats khel as utterly in the right.
AffableDoomwalker 10-23-07, 12:48 AM	I asked my players about it and it boils down to the fact that they tend to think Fzoul is a lot, LOT smarter than Khelben. It's an odd reaction to be sure, but they think that he's basically condemned the Eastern portion of Faerun to conquest by the Banites. Oddly, the timeline seems to back it up being a royal mistake on Khel's part. But yes, hostility to Khel doesn't seem to be very smart since Cloak and Dagger treats khel as utterly in the right. Screw all that man! What do you think is right?! Are you going freeform, or are you going to really, really try to stick to the as-written storyline? If the former, then Khelben could either ultimately be in the right, and serve as one hell of a foil. Do they ultimately fail in messin' with Khelben? Does he kill them? Do they kill him? What happens then? Does the Church of Bane move along the face of Faerun with impunity - thanks entirely to the PCs messing with Khel's plans, thus screwing all of Faerun (which opens even more adventures, like "you broke, so fix it yourselves *******s")? The possibilities for the freeform are endless man; ENDLESS! ARRRRGH! If the latter, then its just on you to turn your PCs adventure into a sidequest/backdrop when referring to the overall story, where they will make several efforts, but have relatively little to no effort on the world's written/official history. Their own adventures being far more profound to them, and never really making waves in the grand scheme of the realms. or maybe it has a huge effect that really doesn't change much: Khelben made a mistake, maybe in your world insulting this party's sense of pride/intelligence/justice/whatever was the very mistake he made. Like I said, roll with it! Personally, I'd like to hear all about how this game turns out. You should update this here page as the campaign moves on. Edit: I think you should really stress how bad a move it is to be directly and openly hostile against Khelben ''Blackstaff'' Arunsun, I'm not a proponent of the "glass ceiling effect" that to many others are, but there really is a fine line between "challenging" and "suicidal" this isn't some paltry level 10 wizard in a silly tower, this guy is a CR 30+ (at least) Archmage with the "you can't kill me" (also known as Chosen of Mystra) template. He's also kinda got a entire city on his side, what with being a lord of it on and off... y'know, Waterdeep?
Scathlock 10-23-07, 07:59 AM	Well, you could just let Blackstaff teleport away indignantly and leave the players in their beloved Shadowdale/Berdusk/wherever, with their realization, that yes, eastern Faerun is going to be conquered by evil...so they could try and prevent it, either on their own, or in concert with the remaining Harpers. Well, and should they accomplish that herculean quest, they should be better prepared to finally confront Blackstaff and ask him if he lost his mind... P.S.: I'd love to hear about the development of this campaign, too. P.P.S: You could use all those Moonstar storylines you prepared and spring them on the PCs with the twist that they are slightly at odds with the Moonstars now. Moonstar agents everywhere who just want to good as well and who are after the same artifacts, evil strongholds, Fzouls subcommanders as they are...
Charles Phipps 11-04-07, 04:40 PM	Well, the campaign current development results in the whole events of Shadowdale: Scouring of the Land in our game with Fzoul pretty much launching the conquest of the Dales at that time. In addition to that Mega-Module, they're also going to be playing the Sword of the Dale, though I'm modifying that old module series because it was rather boring to me. I'm currently trying to work out how exactly the Chosen are going to react to Khelben when Sylune is destroyed as a direct result of Khelben's pact here. The "new and improved" Fzoul knowing how to defeat her forever. (I'm going with the idea Khel severely underestimated Fzoul's competence thanks to past performance). I'm also going to exaggerate tensions with the introduction of Ashemmi and Semmenon as Moonstars. The players, I've hinted in other threads, hate them with a personal loathing far greater than they do Fzoul and Manshoon. The players also followed the player who didn't join Khelben's lead, except for one whose agreed to "spy" on the others, in an amusing scenario. They were called before Twilight Hall to swear allegiance and call upon Khelben's treason. The SAME damn player who wouldn't join Khelben's cause did this last night. [i]Khelben is not a traitor. If Khelben was a traitor, you'd know it. You'd all be dead, enspelled with sorcery to believe he's a perfect loyalist, or sent in wave after wave to deal with threats to his rule before you're exterminated. If Khelben was a traitor, he'd be ruling the Sword Coast as King of Waterdeep with Piergion eager to give up rule that so frequently causes moral compomise." "No, Khelben is just being stupid." The PCs have thus, ironically, been kicked out of the other side of the Harpers as they have begun sharpening knives.
Stigger 11-04-07, 07:10 PM	Interesting, I've pretty much given up trying to plan anything ahead in my campaigns and just act as referree and judge these days, steering them in certain directions, but otherwise letting the players set the course. Doubt it would work for everyone, but it's worked out well for us over the years... actually I've gotten rather fond of running the stories almost entirely on the fly come to think of it.
Charles Phipps 11-04-07, 07:32 PM	For me, I don't like that. Unless I can give the players 100% of my storytelling capacity I don't enjoy the game.
Stigger 11-04-07, 07:56 PM	Oddly enough I tend to feel I don't really give them 100% unless it is pretty much spontaneous... different strokes for different folks I guess.
Charles Phipps 11-04-07, 08:14 PM	Yeah, for me, I feel that even if they have free will. They should have well described settings and plot results to follow. I don't railroad but I make sure I have stuff pre-prepared.
Zanan 11-05-07, 04:05 AM	One basic rule for DMing is (and has always been): Expect the unexpected! (And, if possible, always have two or three back-up plans or plots handy.) But rest assured, none bar Dispater himself has ever managed that! :D
Hammer_of_Tyr 11-07-07, 10:35 PM	I'm about to curve ball my DM, We are halfway through "Mysterys of the Moonsea" The ship we own is currently "iced in" at Maelvaunt, the DM gave us a mission in the jungles of Chult via a gate portal, so we could spend the worst of our winter months adventuring in a tropical paradise. During the course of last weeks adventure we managed to take over a pirate ship and kill the pirates to the last man, we now own a pirate ship in the south? What to do? What to do? Return to the bleak and dour homelands? Have to deal with Zhents and Hillsfar and all the crap that's going on up there? OOOR sail around in a tropical paradise, killing pirates, drinking pineapple and rums and re-creating the best scenes form "Pirates of the Caribbean?" What would YOUR character do?? I think my DM is going to blow a gasket. -S
Rauric 11-07-07, 10:43 PM	Hopefully he knows that PCs with a boat are a danerous lot. ;) I have stopped planning months ahead. I listen to the players and try to flow with them. If it is fun and makes sense that is.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 11-08-07, 09:10 AM	What would YOUR character do?? I think my DM is going to blow a gasket. -S That's hilarious.:D
Bonzai 11-08-07, 12:21 PM	I've recently done this to my DM in a Homebrew campaign. I played an Archavist, who was on a quest to find a lost temple. During the course of the search, we explored some under water ruins. In the ruins, we explored a temple to a water goddess, which ironicly, still had lots of air trapped inside. Inside the temple, we found it being looted by dwarves (in this campaign the dwarves and humans were antagonistic towards each other). The Dwarves had managed to tunnel in to the temple, and were emptying it of it's treasure. We defeated the dwarves, but flooded the temple in the process. So we returned to the nearby city, and returned to a patron who had hired us to retrieve an item from the ruins. He gave him the item, and explained what had happened. LOL, the DM really rp'ed this character as being very eccentric and borderline crazy. He wanted us to go back and get rid of the dwarves. So being true to my character, my character made the excuse that the party needed to rest first, and excused us for the night. My character decided that there was no way in hell that the party was going to clear out a mountain full of dwarves, and so we snuck out the next morning and continued on our quest. I kind of felt bad that the DM had prepared a full segment on the Dwarven mountain. He was a great sport about it though, and agreed that it was completly in character. I just felt bad about waisting his work.