golems evil or good? [Archive] - Wizards Community

golems evil or good? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
justanotherdwarf
03-28-06, 10:29 AM is the act of creating a golem evil or good
Kid SixXx
03-28-06, 10:37 AM Neither. Building a construct is no more good or evil than assembling a bicycle.

There are certainly some types of golems (Flesh Golem, Blood Golem) whose construction processes may include some shady dealings, but assigning an alignment-related issue to the construction is a metagame issue between the players & the DM.
Cli' San Aquanova
03-28-06, 05:16 PM Neither. Building a construct is no more good or evil than assembling a bicycle.
Except you're not binding a possibly unwilling spirit when you're constructing a bicycle. There's a difference.

That said, I personally don't think it's an evil/good act (more neutral IMO), and agree with you that the creation of some of the fouler golems (such as dragonskin, flesh, brain; pretty much anything that was harvested from a living creature) does border on perversion, at least.

-C'SA
:u:Bring Back Merfolk!!!:u:
justanotherdwarf
03-29-06, 10:44 AM so are most spirits unwilling spirit ..like earth elements and such do you contact them and say hay i got a long term job offer for you our do you just push them in?
Kid SixXx
03-29-06, 01:49 PM so are most spirits unwilling spirit ..like earth elements and such do you contact them and say hay i got a long term job offer for you our do you just push them in?

You pretty much just push them in.

This sort of moral dilemma comes up all the time in the Eberron setting, since there is a system of magical enhancement called Binding, where objects are fortified with a living elemental (ie. armor, weapons, vehicles).

Most commecial travel in Eberron is done with vehicles powered by elementals (airships, the lightning rail, land carts), and there are some sectors of society that equate Binding to slavery.

These are also the sectors of society that view the creation of the Warforged as a dishonorable practice. Creation Forges ultimately generated slaves, regardless of whether or not Warforged enjoy their existance or like to fight in the first place.

Ultimately, it's your world, so you can assign whatever positive or negative philosophical or social connotations you want to with certain aspects of the game.

Mechanically speaking, unless it's specifically mentioned (ie. construction of the golem requires the casting of a spell with the Evil descriptor) the creation of a golem is not an evil act prima facea.
Alac Luin
03-29-06, 02:10 PM Most people see nothing wrong with farms keeping chickens or cows to be used as food.

Some people do find this practice, distasteful.

The elemental, or elemental spirit is seen about the same.
Or the act of most non-healing conjuration spells.
Chosen of Bane
03-30-06, 10:27 AM Except you're not binding a possibly unwilling spirit when you're constructing a bicycle. There's a difference.

I never saw Golems as having a spirit to begin with. I see them like robots. Something that is completely constructed from physical parts and programed to act in a certain manner.

Definitely not an aligned act.

Now, if you create a golem to defend and orphanage than that's probably a good act. And if you create a golem to murder innocents than it is probably and evil act. But simply building a golem is neither.
Alac Luin
03-30-06, 09:28 PM From the SRD
"Golems are magically created automatons of great power. Constructing one involves the employment of mighty magic and elemental forces.
The animating force for a golem is a spirit from the Elemental Plane of Earth. The process of creating the golem binds the unwilling spirit to the artificial body and subjects it to the will of the golem’s creator"

Now an Automiton is something different.
Chosen of Bane
03-31-06, 06:44 AM I stand corrected.
Alac Luin
03-31-06, 03:56 PM And I can correct myself while I'm at it.
The Automaton (MM2) is created with gears and springs, but it still does have a shadow consciousness (exactly what that is....) bound to it.
Cli' San Aquanova
03-31-06, 06:48 PM *Climbs to the second turnbuckle and raises arms in victory.* :evillaugh

-C'SA
:u:Bring Back Merfolk!!!:u:
Gallameed
03-31-06, 07:15 PM You could create a golem to do anything you want. :)
Priest_of_Shaundakul
03-31-06, 07:23 PM anything? :cool:
Alac Luin
03-31-06, 07:31 PM Yup, anything. I've been on threads that got sent to the mature boards about Golems.

There was that imfamous "sealed" adventure in Dungeon a few years back....

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
justanotherdwarf 03-28-06, 10:29 AM	is the act of creating a golem evil or good
Kid SixXx 03-28-06, 10:37 AM	Neither. Building a construct is no more good or evil than assembling a bicycle. There are certainly some types of golems (Flesh Golem, Blood Golem) whose construction processes may include some shady dealings, but assigning an alignment-related issue to the construction is a metagame issue between the players & the DM.
Cli' San Aquanova 03-28-06, 05:16 PM	Neither. Building a construct is no more good or evil than assembling a bicycle. Except you're not binding a possibly unwilling spirit when you're constructing a bicycle. There's a difference. That said, I personally don't think it's an evil/good act (more neutral IMO), and agree with you that the creation of some of the fouler golems (such as dragonskin, flesh, brain; pretty much anything that was harvested from a living creature) does border on perversion, at least. -C'SA :u:Bring Back Merfolk!!!:u:
justanotherdwarf 03-29-06, 10:44 AM	so are most spirits unwilling spirit ..like earth elements and such do you contact them and say hay i got a long term job offer for you our do you just push them in?
Kid SixXx 03-29-06, 01:49 PM	so are most spirits unwilling spirit ..like earth elements and such do you contact them and say hay i got a long term job offer for you our do you just push them in? You pretty much just push them in. This sort of moral dilemma comes up all the time in the Eberron setting, since there is a system of magical enhancement called Binding, where objects are fortified with a living elemental (ie. armor, weapons, vehicles). Most commecial travel in Eberron is done with vehicles powered by elementals (airships, the lightning rail, land carts), and there are some sectors of society that equate Binding to slavery. These are also the sectors of society that view the creation of the Warforged as a dishonorable practice. Creation Forges ultimately generated slaves, regardless of whether or not Warforged enjoy their existance or like to fight in the first place. Ultimately, it's your world, so you can assign whatever positive or negative philosophical or social connotations you want to with certain aspects of the game. Mechanically speaking, unless it's specifically mentioned (ie. construction of the golem requires the casting of a spell with the Evil descriptor) the creation of a golem is not an evil act prima facea.
Alac Luin 03-29-06, 02:10 PM	Most people see nothing wrong with farms keeping chickens or cows to be used as food. Some people do find this practice, distasteful. The elemental, or elemental spirit is seen about the same. Or the act of most non-healing conjuration spells.
Chosen of Bane 03-30-06, 10:27 AM	Except you're not binding a possibly unwilling spirit when you're constructing a bicycle. There's a difference. I never saw Golems as having a spirit to begin with. I see them like robots. Something that is completely constructed from physical parts and programed to act in a certain manner. Definitely not an aligned act. Now, if you create a golem to defend and orphanage than that's probably a good act. And if you create a golem to murder innocents than it is probably and evil act. But simply building a golem is neither.
Alac Luin 03-30-06, 09:28 PM	From the SRD "Golems are magically created automatons of great power. Constructing one involves the employment of mighty magic and elemental forces. The animating force for a golem is a spirit from the Elemental Plane of Earth. The process of creating the golem binds the unwilling spirit to the artificial body and subjects it to the will of the golem’s creator" Now an Automiton is something different.
Chosen of Bane 03-31-06, 06:44 AM	I stand corrected.
Alac Luin 03-31-06, 03:56 PM	And I can correct myself while I'm at it. The Automaton (MM2) is created with gears and springs, but it still does have a shadow consciousness (exactly what that is....) bound to it.
Cli' San Aquanova 03-31-06, 06:48 PM	Climbs to the second turnbuckle and raises arms in victory. :evillaugh -C'SA :u:Bring Back Merfolk!!!:u:
Gallameed 03-31-06, 07:15 PM	You could create a golem to do anything you want. :)
Priest_of_Shaundakul 03-31-06, 07:23 PM	anything? :cool:
Alac Luin 03-31-06, 07:31 PM	Yup, anything. I've been on threads that got sent to the mature boards about Golems. There was that imfamous "sealed" adventure in Dungeon a few years back....