Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Ardashir 11-30-04, 12:29 PM	Just out of curiosity, has anyone here ever used a monster in their campaign that was of an alignment radically different from the one listed? I.e., a good beholder/illithid/whatever. (Elminster and the Sisters especially seem to run into all sorts of oddball critters -- no doubt El has a beholder drinking pal out there somewhere!) I was thinking of allowing lycanthropes of alignments other than monstrously evil, and I would just like to have a reason (or excuse, if you prefer) when someone's PC asks, "Hey, why are they so different from the rest of their species?" The above is a good question to me -- after all, a monster that is of a more noble frame of mind wouldn't last long around his own folk ("What do you mean, 'it's immoral to eat brains'? Die heretic!"), and what sort of welcome could he expect from humans and others? ("It's a mind flayer -- kill it before it eats our brains!") Any advice on how to use such a being & just what sort of troubles they might have faced (whch would affect how they react towards others) would be vastly appreciated.
Kuje31 11-30-04, 12:49 PM	I do this all the time. Especially in 3e since they radically changed the alignments for many of the monsters. Lesser undead for example now are usually always evil, which makes no sense. I know Ed does this all the time as well and you can also see examples of it as official NPC's. A good mind flayer specialty priest of Oghma for example who appeared in the City of Splendors box set and later in the Skullport sourcebook. Lyncanthrope's also vary from many different alignments and my email group just ran into this example. *Grins at Gothicdan*.
GothicDan 11-30-04, 01:52 PM	*Mutters and grumbles about darned Fighters attacking* It's tough being the Cleric, I tell you. In any event, ahem, you really should stop and think about a monster's alignment in regards to the society that he/she grew up in. I am a big fan of psychological/sociological congency. That's one of the reasons I hate the fact that people are suddenly suddenly all about the Good drow, as if they made up even a small percent of the population. Simply put, Drow society has been Chaotic Evil for tens of thousands of years, and youngsters are indoctrinated into those beliefs when they are young enough to be easily brainwashed. Now, I am also not saying that monsters who differ from standard alignments cannot exist, and as a fan of Planescape, I encourage this! However, the key difference is that on the Planes, it's much easier to be more metropolitan in your outlook. There's no clean-cut, easy way to explain why monsters' alignments would differ from the larger society's. You have to look at each NPC (monster) as an individual, and think for yourself - Hey how did that illithid become good? Most likely, it was something that happened over years, after hundreds or thousand of individual encounters or experiences. I'm not saying that this is the ONLY way to think about it, but I certainly am saying to think about the reasons for each Monster's differing alignment, even if it's as simple as, "One day the orc wondered, 'Why kill so much when you can buy meat? It's so much easier!' So he left his tribe and went to Waterdeep where, over ten years, he became a CG butcher." A bit of a silly example, but it explains something about the inner workings of an NPC. :)
Cole Deschain 11-30-04, 09:44 PM	I've created entire rogue clans of "oddball" aligned beings. I had a bunch of neutral good kobolds who took it upon themselves to act as watchdogs for a human community (they'd had a bit of a religious conversion, after their scaly little rumps were saved by a Selunite adventuring party), setting traps to keep the local goblins from ever finding the village. The party got involved when the villagers spotted one of the kobolds and began trying to kill them off, eventually enlisting the PCs. Of course, the kobolds ended up saving the party from a goblin warband, etc. The way I see it, alignment is like any other rule- I can use it, bend it or break it as I see fit.
Ramius_Mordale 12-01-04, 12:11 AM	Back to the good drow thing, just cause the society as a whole is CE doesn't mean the people are all CE. Granted most would be on the evil side but more than likely there is a great number of neutral aligned drow that don't care for the current system just deal with it because that's the way its always been. Which then creates for the occassional good drow poping up out of the wood works. Plus sometimes people just rebel against society, and personally people don't play evil right. It's not like the drow are evil outsiders from an evil plane, they just follow a really evil goddess (or god) that basically demands that the strongest and smartest should rule or lead. No society is completely all one way or the other. But for the DM its just easier to say all these drow NPCs are CE so he doesn't have to spend 15 million man hours per session figuring out what this random NPCs alignment and personal views are. I agree though that good drow seem to be appearing more frequently, but to explain why this may be happening in FR is because of Drizzt, the surface drow, Eilistraee's worshipers, or any other numerous factors of good are starting to impact on the drow community. After all you can't stop gossip from spreading in a society for long no matter how much propaganda you spread about the surface infidels. Now I can't say I've stayed up to date with all the drow stuff, but didn't Loth go silent, disappeared or something? Has she even come back yet? But yeah I agree you should have a very good reason why such and such, decides to rebel against his evil society. Personally, and its been a long time since I have been able to play a nonstandard race PC, I figure out why this happened. Maybe something that happened thousands of years ago allowed this character to be good now. Or maybe the family was cursed, good old curse ain't it grand? :D Seriously though, if you are playing the nonstandard race for actual roleplaying value and have a good story for you to play it and are taking the campaign seriously, I don't see why you need to develope all that out at the beginning. It can be kind of fun to play out why the character went the way he did and not just go with what is normal for his species. Ah, oh well, your way probably sounds best anyways. Later. :tiphat:
BrianCritchley 12-01-04, 03:25 AM	I find that the best way to approuch alignment, especially n NPCs your PCs are gonna interac t with a fair bit is to figure out th eir motivations/history and peg an alignment from there.
Amryll 12-01-04, 04:24 AM	i have a CG drow, i and i had him since way back when we didnt know they were evil(lame i know) but when we found it out i made up a whole soy for it, his family was CN, and some other house figured it out and took all but 7 of them out and they fled, ending up on the surface, when my char was just a child, that lasted bout 2 weeks before ogres offed all but my char and an elf pali saved him, and thus made him good, though the chaos part never left him
warlockco 12-01-04, 04:36 AM	Cursed Items are always fun to change the alignment of some beings. Helm of Opposite Alignment is an oldie but a goodie. Completely baffled a group with a Lawful Good Balor that was a Paladin of Tyr whose foe was a Chaotic Evil Solar Anti-Paladin of Orcus. :D
GothicDan 12-01-04, 08:50 AM	You should have made him a CE Throne Archon of Orcus! Yeah... I'm a bit obssessive about themes. :D Also, I refuse to comment on the Drow statements because I've gotten into this discussion way, way too many times. Suffice it to say that for the past 3 or so decades, Drow have been considered chaotic and evil for a reason. I wouldn't consider a typical "rebellion against society" to actually change alignments. Teenagers rebel against their parents all the time, and they don't go from suddenly good to evil. It would be even harder to do when you rebel, you are tortured or killed. And, going with that idea, Drow adolescents have already been surrounded by a Chaotic Evil society for decades by the time they come of age, mentally. It's not just their parents they're rebelling against - it's an entire village, or an entire city. When you're surrounded by that, it's hard to even grasp the concepts of things straying from that path. And as far as I'm concerned, it's in the nature of Drow to rebel against authority (Chaos vs. Law), so every Drow youth probably rebels against their parents or society. They just don't simply have the psychological ability to understand how to rebel WITHOUT being chaotic and evil, because of how much Drow society has already inundated them at an early age. Until I see updated stats on Drow populations (IE: Not information from a single novel or author, but an OOC consensus), I will continue to believe that they are Chaotic Evil, and with good reason. Part of being evil is being overly intolerant, which makes it even less likely to find a Drow straying from the evil path than to find good races straying from the good path. I think that when Corellon cast his own mate into the Abyss and named her tanar'ri, and allowed his dark-skinned children to be driven underground as a whole, there weren't many neutral or good individuals in their society. To think anything otherwise would go completely against Corellon's alignment and personality as established for thousands of years. And, looking at the Drow entry in the 3.5 MM, it makes me wonder why they switched Drow to "Usually neutral evil." We can assume that at least the "evil" part of the "usually" applies to the Realms Drow. Gnolls are "Usually chaotic evil," but we don't have a lot of fans running around complaining when you make statements about Gnoll society. I think part of the reason that people get so upset when you try to label Drow as they should be labeled, is because they have learned to sympathize with the Drow (or at least Drizzt), and so they feel personally wounded when you try to point out that most of their society is made up by blood-thirsty, murdering, chaotic evil psychopaths. No one wants to know that their favorite character's grand quest is pretty much impossible. If one good Drow could change the way that the society of tens of thousands of dark elves was viewed, it would have happened already. The Tel'Quessir have been around for a very long time. I, on the other hand, am not at all wounded when you refer to my favorite subrace - Sun Elves - as elitist, snobby, unbending *Blank*s. :) That's part of the reason why I like them, and if you truly like a given society/culture, you should like all parts of it rather than trying to change the parts that you don't like. Otherwise, you only like some things about Drow, and hoping against hope that Drizzt will make a big change (which he won't, because he's hardly known on the surface or in other areas of the Underdark) won't make it happen. Mind you, I'm not telling you that your opinion is wrong - I just don't buy it when in context with the rest of the lore of the Realms, the deities, and the Seldarine. :) So, can Drow be good or neutral? Definitely. Do I think it happens often? No. And I'm not making a personal attack. All of the above was merely a general rant/argument. Darn. I got into the Drow debate again.
Ramius_Mordale 12-01-04, 12:09 PM	Hey all in good fun. It's hard to stay out of them. Personally, I have nothing attached to Drizzt because I've never read the books, but I'm planning on getting to them eventually. :) But in any case, I partly agree with your statement, but remember when Corellon casted those with Loth down with her into the Abyss (or Underdark) the society was Chaotic Evil completely. Over time though the society is bound to change for better or worse. Corellon also didn't leave the drow behind persay, he left a backdoor open for those that truely wished to be brought into the light if you will. Well he didn't really want to but his daughter Eilistraee, decided to go with the drow to lead them back if you will. Yeah, yeah cheesy to bring up, but that's what I read in the FRCS, which is where I'm getting all this information for the most part. I still think the drow society as a whole is primarily CE but with the sudden surge of different evil Drow deities, I would say the society is definiately having serious changes and possibly a power shift. More than likely it will be either Loth or that other god of drow at the top when its over. I do however believe the society is starting to have a great deal of neutral aligned drow which I think they are more likely than good drow. Mainly because, its easier to move half a step up then a whole step. I do agree though that most drow are evil and primarily CE but I would say a strong minority are going to NE or LE now as well. Not saying though that they will ever be a Lawful Evil or Neutral Evil society but it would greatly change how governments of drow cities would work in the Underdark. Eh, well you're probably right anyways, and I'm just really having this discussion in order to better my roleplaying experience and sharpen my debating skills. But going to the Gnoll thing, I think the reason why no one plays gnolls is because of their short life span compared to most other races. Now one thing you never here of is an actual good Abomination Yuan-ti. :thinks: What's this you speak of, blasphemy! I mean really if you are going to argue about drow what about my lizard snake like people? Too long have my scaly brothern have been oppressed into this bondage of evil, rise up my snake like friends and cast aside your chains. *Gets shot with a poisoned bolt* :doh: :ghosted: No! I'm not done talking yet! Darn, oh well, guess I'll just have to be resurrected then. Crap! Forgot to get a patron deity!!! :eek: Haha, okay now I'm just being wierd. :looloo: (More like mentally unstable) Who said that? *Looks around* Oh no the voices are speaking to me again. Run away! Haha, good day to you all. :tiphat:
GothicDan 12-01-04, 12:22 PM	*Snickers* Well, I'm glad we do agree on some things. I'm not sure if I see a major shifting of alignment among the Drow (and I think such a thing is pretty impossible, in regards to the overall Drow population), but I think it would be possible only if something really catastrophic happened, like the death of Lolth or the destruction of several major Drow cities that scattered its inhabitants. Basically, as long as Drow society has no major threats from the outside, it has no reason to change. But yes, the yuan-ti... Where are all of the good yuan-ti?! ;)
Ardashir 12-01-04, 05:54 PM	But in any case, I partly agree with your statement, but remember when Corellon casted those with Loth down with her into the Abyss (or Underdark) the society was Chaotic Evil completely. Over time though the society is bound to change for better or worse. Corellon also didn't leave the drow behind persay, he left a backdoor open for those that truely wished to be brought into the light if you will. Well he didn't really want to but his daughter Eilistraee, decided to go with the drow to lead them back if you will. Yeah, yeah cheesy to bring up, but that's what I read in the FRCS, which is where I'm getting all this information for the most part. I still think the drow society as a whole is primarily CE but with the sudden surge of different evil Drow deities, I would say the society is definiately having serious changes and possibly a power shift. More than likely it will be either Loth or that other god of drow at the top when its over. I do however believe the society is starting to have a great deal of neutral aligned drow which I think they are more likely than good drow. Mainly because, its easier to move half a step up then a whole step. I do agree though that most drow are evil and primarily CE but I would say a strong minority are going to NE or LE now as well. Not saying though that they will ever be a Lawful Evil or Neutral Evil society but it would greatly change how governments of drow cities would work in the Underdark. . I always thought a big part of the reason Drow were so utterly vile was (a) they're ruled by a goddess who's one step up from a full-blown demon, and who encourages and rewards some truly vile behavior, and (b) the Underdark is not Mister Roger's Neighborhood. Even the mostly decent svirfneblin are suspicious and a but crossbow-happy when it comes to strangers. That's not even adding in having mind flayers and beholder cities for neighbors, neither of which would put flower power high on anyone's agenda. But going to the Gnoll thing, I think the reason why no one plays gnolls is because of their short life span compared to most other races. I always kind of liked the idea of CN gnoll amazons. Hey, they are based on hyenas, and females are the leaders in hyena societies. And they are nasty brutes. The Thayan gnolls always sturck me as a different idea, esp. the 'female barbarian in chainmail bikini' pic you get at the front of _The Unapproachable East_. Ain't she cute? Ugh!
Cole Deschain 12-01-04, 09:28 PM	I've actually run quite a few Gnoll PCs in my time... The Complete Book of Humanoids did me proud in 2E, and 3E took only a little tinkering to make work. The catch is, gnolls seldom get any detailed treatment in anything- they're usually cannon fodder. The exception is noteworthy- Soldiers of Ice details a gnoll who reads more like Neutral than Chaotic Evil- in fact, he was the inspiration for most of my gnoll characters.
GothicDan 12-02-04, 01:31 AM	I kind of took the idea about said gnolls for my own campaign, only I used orcs. Kind of. Err. See, there was this big magical explosion that ended up destroying a great part of the land, and the magic also melded the spirits and forms of the local orcs with the local jungle/wood elves. Now we have, voila!, jungle orcs! I was looking for a reason to give them the bright green skin of Warcraft orcs. :cool:
Ramius_Mordale 12-02-04, 08:50 AM	*Snickers* I AM THE WARCHIEF! LOL, sorry couldn't resist, GothicDan. ;) BTW, if you are into Warcraft there is an rpg out for it if your interested. And blizzard helped make it so it actually does feel and act like Warcraft. I believe sword and sorcery was the publisher if you haven't already checked it out. Ardashir: Well if you want to get technical I guess so. :P But enviroment and worship while important aren't the only factors to why they are CE. It's their extreme hatred for the surface elves that drives them for revenge, and other numerous factors. But they have recently had a bit of a coup since Loth went silent now all the males are like, well hmm, no priestesses of Loth have power.....I think I'll get a little revenge for oh, a few hundred years of pain and humiliation. :schemes: But about the Gnoll thing. Oh come on she looks sexy. You monster hater. Don't you lie you got turned on by it. Haha, but I kid yeah, I think WotC went a tad far with the sexy vixen with that. :yuck: Well I've had an idea or two for some Gnolls but the people that I play with are not a big fan of nonstandard PCs. :raincloud BTW, I'm just using this as an excuse to use these new smiley faces. :D But as I say, I'll take a Orc Blademaster over an army anytime. :rimshot: Oh and Good morning to you all. :tiphat:
GothicDan 12-02-04, 11:43 AM	Well, I'm not -that- big of a fan of Warcraft, but I just got to wondering, "How does a bright green skin help you blend in with... Anything?" So my Chaotic Neutral jungle orcs were made. :) I was thinking Ranger as a Favored Class (if I decide to use Favored Classes, which I might now, and +2 Str, +2 Dex, -2 Cha, -2 Int... or -4 Str, +2 Dex, -4 Cha, -2 Int. And I actually have a few large packs of Gnolls on the rise on my campaign too, beading up the humans of the plains. Bwahahaha.
Mystery Man 12-02-04, 11:50 AM	Well, I'm not -that- big of a fan of Warcraft, but I just got to wondering, "How does a bright green skin help you blend in with... Anything?" Green slime. A grassy gnoll. Lambeau field during the playoffs....
Ramius_Mordale 12-02-04, 12:37 PM	Hmm...in the jungle green works well in the middle of the plains in winter you stick out like a green thump. No pun intended. ;) I got a bit confused about your modifiers. Did you mean +4 Str instead of -4 Str? If that's the case I'd say go with the first that fits more with warcraft orcs. In the warcraft book it gave them a +2 to Con instead of str and a -2 Int, plus the ability to rage 1/day which if you take the barbarian class it gives you another rage ability per day extra. But mind you they said fighter was their favored class, because its warcraft I guess. But hey its your race so do with as you wish, but I am unshamed that I'm a Warcraft junky. :P I have given up all hope of being normal so I accept my place as nerd gamer of the year. Haha, well I'm sure someone could beat me since I rarely get to play much of anything except D&D these days and that's once a week usually at the most. Anyways, Gnolls 157 Humans -1. :D Yes they went negative, that's how bad they are lossing! :evillaugh Haha, well I better to get work on my papers and stuff before the final hour so I'll talk with your folks later. :tiphat:
GothicDan 12-02-04, 01:36 PM	Go gnolls! And considering that Orcs were never really known for being big on the plains, either, I don't think that the jungle green color would work for them... But they DO work fine for my jungle orcs! :) And yes, I meant +4. I'm not trying to go for Warcraft Orcs here, but I'm trying to go for Jungle Orcs, which just happen to share the same coloration. The +2 Str, -2 Cha and -2 Int comes from the Orc heritage. The +2 Dex comes from the Wood Elf heritage. At least, that's how it could be interpretted IF the creation myth of the Jungle Orcs (as I stated above, with the mingling of wood elf and orcish blood) is true.
Belissaire 12-02-04, 02:38 PM	I remember that there's supposed to be a clan of good Orcs that settled down in the Moonsea area. If I remember correctly, the info is in one of the monstrous compendium of the 2E, but I can't recall which one... Belissaire
Kuje31 12-02-04, 02:44 PM	I remember that there's supposed to be a clan of good Orcs that settled down in the Moonsea area. If I remember correctly, the info is in one of the monstrous compendium of the 2E, but I can't recall which one... Belissaire The Ondonti who worship Eldath. Or they did until the Zhent's found them and slaughtered most of them and then took the rest as slaves. Ruins of Zhentil Keep box set has them. :)
Ramius_Mordale 12-02-04, 03:30 PM	Go gnolls! And considering that Orcs were never really known for being big on the plains, either, I don't think that the jungle green color would work for them... But they DO work fine for my jungle orcs! :) And yes, I meant +4. I'm not trying to go for Warcraft Orcs here, but I'm trying to go for Jungle Orcs, which just happen to share the same coloration. The +2 Str, -2 Cha and -2 Int comes from the Orc heritage. The +2 Dex comes from the Wood Elf heritage. At least, that's how it could be interpretted IF the creation myth of the Jungle Orcs (as I stated above, with the mingling of wood elf and orcish blood) is true. Sweetness. Let me know when you flesh them out I might want to add them to my FR campaigns or see if my group is interested in them being apart of our FR campaigns in the future. Are you going to go for the Chult region? That's cool though, I think if you give those Jungle Orcs the +4 Str, +2 Dex, -2 Int, -4 Cha you might give the Gnolls a run for their money. :shifty: (Shhh...the Gnolls might be listening.) But never my scaley friends, maybe equals to the Yuan-ti. I'll have your people talk to my people if they'll be an alliance. Haha, just joking. But yeah sweet deal man let me know if that's alright if I can use them or not. Edit: I think the voices are talking to me again. *Chuckles* Well maybe I'm just a tad crazy. :looloo: Later. :tiphat:
Ardashir 12-02-04, 05:20 PM	Ardashir: Well if you want to get technical I guess so. :P But enviroment and worship while important aren't the only factors to why they are CE. It's their extreme hatred for the surface elves that drives them for revenge, and other numerous factors. But they have recently had a bit of a coup since Loth went silent now all the males are like, well hmm, no priestesses of Loth have power.....I think I'll get a little revenge for oh, a few hundred years of pain and humiliation. :schemes: But about the Gnoll thing. Oh come on she looks sexy. You monster hater. Don't you lie you got turned on by it. Haha, but I kid yeah, I think WotC went a tad far with the sexy vixen with that. :yuck: Well I've had an idea or two for some Gnolls but the people that I play with are not a big fan of nonstandard PCs. :raincloud With the drow: now that Big Momma Lolth is out of the way, I bet the rest of the pantheon are wildly recruiting -- er, so they can save Lolth, of course. Uh, yeah, that's it. We're stealing your worshippers for you, oh dread and dire Queen of the Demonweb Pits! Vhaeraun is something less than heartbroken, I imagine. Concerning the gnolls (esp. Miss Yeenoghu-Bait 1372 DR from _Unapproachable East_), she is kind of cute, I suppose -- provided you're into carrion-eating girlfriends. On the other hand, she'd be perfectly happy to help you remove bodies. ("Oh, you think of Rotted-Fang again! Gives her nice rotten dead elfsies to eat!" Tear, slobber, drool!) But more seriously, aside from Thay, just where do you find a lot of gnolls in the Realms? I seem to remember Anauroch as one locale, and maybe the Shaar. Also, if their god Yeenoghu is a demon and as such can't grant spells to his priests, then where do gnoll clerics get their spells from? I imagine it's probably either from Talos ("Destroy, gnolls! Destroy!") or Malar ("Ain't it fun to kill thangs?"), with the expectation that Yeenoghu will have his 'children' do them some favors in return, i.e., not kill Talosian or Malarite clergy. Ooh, I just got an awful idea -- gnoll were-hyenadon druid as a Hunter of the Black Blood. That sounds nasty.