Good Lich [Archive] - Wizards Community - Pages Merged by Solauren

Good Lich [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Dragyn
12-13-07, 12:59 AM ...in my viewing of all the online artwork i have come across the picture of the good lich in the Monsters of Faerun book.

does anyone know his alignment?

what about his challenge rating?

i have not seen the Monsters of Fearun book anywhere in my city and I've made sure to check on multiple book stores.

~thank you to anyone who can help~
DreamStalker
12-13-07, 01:07 AM Good Liches, also known as Arch-Liches, are liches of any Good alignment. Their powers tend to be slightly different and involve creating ghostly images of themselves, turning undead, being immune to turning, not unsettling animals ect. I believe the standard CR is the same for a regular Lich, but one with extra powers increase by +1 CR for every two such powers as with regular liches.

They are still Undead, but if you use the rules for Deathless in FR it has a slightly different feel to create them as such.
Stigger
12-13-07, 01:39 AM I'm really wondering why it never occurred to me to use the Deathless rules for Archliches before... damn. Thanks DreamStalker. :D
Alkasyn
12-13-07, 04:22 AM There's also the Bael'norn, the good elven Lich. (Don't rely on me on the spelling of it's name, though)
Alediran
12-13-07, 07:44 AM There's also the Bael'norn, the good elven Lich. (Don't rely on me on the spelling of it's name, though)

It was almost right, just take the ' out, it's Baelnorn.

I'm really wondering why it never occurred to me to use the Deathless rules for Archliches before... damn. Thanks DreamStalker. :D

As soon as I saw the Deathless type (before knowing about Archliches) I thought, good way to make non-living good spellcasters.
Stigger
12-13-07, 08:00 AM Sure, for stuff like Wiz-Shades it occurred to me, but not for a lich. Archliches have been around for a while, long before 3e... Alathane Moonstar in Waterdeep, another in some city in the Heartlands that just flew out of my head... another one whom I've also had a brain hiccup over... at least three that I remember, though I'll be damned if I can recall the details of the other two at the moment.
The_Shaman
12-13-07, 08:13 AM Would the Baelnorn be exactly the same as archliches?
Stigger
12-13-07, 08:15 AM Nope, Baelnorns are infused with positive energy, which seperates them from pretty much everything except the Deathless as far as I know. Last I looked, archliches were negative energy, but good aligned... though I'll admit its been a long time since I looked.
Lord Karsus
12-14-07, 12:55 AM Would the Baelnorn be exactly the same as archliches?

-No. Baelnorn have additional abilities, such as projection.

Nope, Baelnorns are infused with positive energy, which seperates them from pretty much everything except the Deathless as far as I know.

-Nope. Baelnorn are infused with Elven High Magic. That is what sustains them.

-And, Mummies are also infused with Positive Energy, just so you know.
Stigger
12-14-07, 01:50 AM Since I looked at the 3e Monsters of Faerun thing with their undead turning ability, I just figured that they were infused with positive energy. Doesn't say either way though in 3e that I'm aware of. Though I'd probably say it was just simply the Weave sustaining them, rather than Elven High Magic, as I've always thought of it as a type of magic rather than a type of arcane energy.

Didn't know that about mummies though. Never really used them though, so...
Lord Karsus
12-14-07, 03:00 AM Didn't know that about mummies though. Never really used them though, so...

-Yeah, it's one of Dan's favorite retorts against people who are like "All Undead = Negative Energy = Evil"
Stigger
12-14-07, 03:20 AM Don't think its so much negative energy that makes it evil... I tend to think of negative energy as more of a symptom than a cause.
Stigger
12-15-07, 05:00 PM Okay, I've tried looking for it, but I can't find much of anything that says that Mummies are infused with positive energy? Any idea where that comes from? I checked out the MM and Libris Mortis, but nothing in there about it.
Suin Bahhar
12-15-07, 06:12 PM Okay, I've tried looking for it, but I can't find much of anything that says that Mummies are infused with positive energy? I quite like the notion though. The ancestral rites link the life energy to a prepared body. But what stops this body from exploding as a normal body would on the positive plain? It's undead physique?
Lord Karsus
12-15-07, 10:00 PM Okay, I've tried looking for it, but I can't find much of anything that says that Mummies are infused with positive energy? Any idea where that comes from? I checked out the MM and Libris Mortis, but nothing in there about it.

-A 2e source, I'm sure of that. Which one, though, I'm not sure. I also think that it was the "Greater Mummy", if such a creature exists.
Karsus the Mad
12-16-07, 12:06 AM I'm just confoozled as to why they're called "arch" lich.....
They're hardly synonomous with other "arch" references, such as archmage, archangel, archdemon, etc....
Meh...just yet another of my dislikes of auto "evil" being applied to anything undead...a good lich to me is simply a mage who was good aligned who became a lich.
It does make me wonder tho' what a neutral lich would be called....like, oh, Ioulaum?
Maybe "Brain Dead"?
Lord Karsus
12-16-07, 12:22 AM I'm just confoozled as to why they're called "arch" lich.....

-I've always wondered that myself.

It does make me wonder tho' what a neutral lich would be called....like, oh, Ioulaum?
Maybe "Brain Dead"?

-Neutralich.
Karsus the Mad
12-16-07, 12:27 AM Go and ruin my not so funny joke of him being an undead brain why don't ya? :P
Lord Karsus
12-16-07, 12:33 AM Go and ruin my not so funny joke of him being an undead brain why don't ya? :P

-Yeah, yeah, yeah...Clear out some room in your PM box. It's like your ears are clogged, and can't hear anything I send! :P
Stigger
12-16-07, 10:21 AM 2e source... don't think it still applies in 3e from what I've seen of it. Which I must admit, I rather like if only to tweak Dan's nose with it... :D
Lord Karsus
12-16-07, 12:48 PM 2e source... don't think it still applies in 3e from what I've seen of it. Which I must admit, I rather like if only to tweak Dan's nose with it... :D

-Well, technically, 3e doesn't make mention of it, which means it still must in in effect. Most things from 2e are still in effect unless something in 3e contradicts it, and says otherwise- the cosmology, for example. I tried IMing Dan last night, but he wasn't around, and I haven't seen him on the boards lately...
Suin Bahhar
12-16-07, 12:52 PM Could you stat out a sample 3.5 positive energy fueled greater mummy?

Or would a standard mummy suffice? Would he look al shriveled and be stinky?
Lord Karsus
12-16-07, 01:00 PM Could you stat out a sample 3.5 positive energy fueled greater mummy?

Or would a standard mummy suffice? Would he look al shriveled and be stinky?

-I don't know. Truthfully, I don't even know what a 'Greater Mummy' is. I'm guessing it's a mummy, but one that's stronger and better than others, but...;)

-As for what it would look like...A mummy! That's why mummy's are preserved, I guess. The trace Positive Energy within them.
Suin Bahhar
12-16-07, 01:14 PM Allowing a greater mummy to be fueled by positive energy would give too many questions in my campaign. It's interesting though.
Stigger
12-16-07, 04:11 PM Not too sure about it... from what I recall, most PE undead usually have turn resistance and the like, but no such mention in 3e. Never seen anything on a Greater Mummy though, so it could be a very different beast with a similar name, so to speak.
Karsus the Mad
12-16-07, 05:45 PM -Yeah, yeah, yeah...Clear out some room in your PM box. It's like your ears are clogged, and can't hear anything I send! :P
Hmm? What was that? I couldn't hear ya. Type louder.
-I don't know. Truthfully, I don't even know what a 'Greater Mummy' is. I'm guessing it's a mummy, but one that's stronger and better than others, but...
Got this off wiki.
''The Greater Mummy of the Dungeons and Dragons game is a priest of a god (usually an Ancient Egyptian one) who, through enduring mummification and being imbued with dark magic, becomes a creature of the undead much like a mummy. This transformation enables them to continue devoutly serving their deity beyond the veil of death.

Greater Mummies have a similar nature to the Lich, as they are both undead spellcasters. The only real difference is the former seeks to further the interests of their deity and the latter desires greater magical power for their own glory. This rules isn't exact, since some mummies want power and some liches respect their god. The obvious physical difference is the method of preservation.

In appearance, Greater Mummies look practically the same as the normal kind, save for their priestly garb (usually including their divine patron's holy symbol).''
You can find Greater Mummies in Deities and Demigods, under the Pharaonic Monsters section.
Suin Bahhar
12-16-07, 07:12 PM Very good. The greater mummies have to be fueled by positive energy otherwise they wouldn't be able to channel their divine lords power when turning. The description talks about dark magic though (this could still be considered as good necromancy perhaps) and undead are negatively affected by healing spells
Storm_Silverhand
12-17-07, 05:01 PM Heya,

-Well, technically, 3e doesn't make mention of it, which means it still must in in effect. Most things from 2e are still in effect unless something in 3e contradicts it, and says otherwise- the cosmology, for example. I tried IMing Dan last night, but he wasn't around, and I haven't seen him on the boards lately...

3e never made mention that Eilitstraee suddenly started accepting male clerics in her clergy, and yet she does*. :rolleyes: (And this was the state of things until Ed said "well, she has, but there's restrictions...")

Now if a lack of a mention means something hasn't changed, then Eilistraee's clergy should still have been considered gender restricted... But it wasn't.

Can we have some consistency please?

* Yes I'm fully aware of a single mention of a male cleric in a little bit of fluff text that was literally one sentence with a single gender pronoun that could easily have been an editing error (a missing s on she). I can't recall which book it was (Lords of Darkness?), and it wasn't specifically referencing the clergy of Eilistraee, rather it was something about Lolth or maybe Shar.
Lord Karsus
12-17-07, 05:06 PM 3e never made mention that Eilitstraee suddenly started accepting male clerics in her clergy, and yet she does*. :rolleyes: (And this was the state of things until Ed said "well, she has, but there's restrictions...")

Now if a lack of a mention means something hasn't changed, then Eilistraee's clergy should still have been considered gender restricted... But it wasn't.

Can we have some consistency please?

* Yes I'm fully aware of a single mention of a male cleric in a little bit of fluff text that was literally one sentence with a single gender pronoun that could easily have been an editing error (a missing s on she). I can't recall which book it was (Lords of Darkness?), and it wasn't specifically referencing the clergy of Eilistraee, rather it was something about Lolth or maybe Shar.

-Bring it up with the authors, and not me. As a rule, 2e ideas/rules/effects are still in effect unless something in 3e, or now 4e contradicts that. The Lost Dale wasn't mentioned in the FRCS, I don't believe, and was first mentioned in Finder Wyvernspur's write-up in Faiths and Pantheons. That it was not mentioned doesn't mean that it disappeared, until it was mentioned again.
Stigger
12-17-07, 05:14 PM Thematic contradicitions about for a lot of old stuff really... even if nothing technically said it was one way or another.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Dragyn 12-13-07, 12:59 AM	...in my viewing of all the online artwork i have come across the picture of the good lich in the Monsters of Faerun book. does anyone know his alignment? what about his challenge rating? i have not seen the Monsters of Fearun book anywhere in my city and I've made sure to check on multiple book stores. ~thank you to anyone who can help~
DreamStalker 12-13-07, 01:07 AM	Good Liches, also known as Arch-Liches, are liches of any Good alignment. Their powers tend to be slightly different and involve creating ghostly images of themselves, turning undead, being immune to turning, not unsettling animals ect. I believe the standard CR is the same for a regular Lich, but one with extra powers increase by +1 CR for every two such powers as with regular liches. They are still Undead, but if you use the rules for Deathless in FR it has a slightly different feel to create them as such.
Stigger 12-13-07, 01:39 AM	I'm really wondering why it never occurred to me to use the Deathless rules for Archliches before... damn. Thanks DreamStalker. :D
Alkasyn 12-13-07, 04:22 AM	There's also the Bael'norn, the good elven Lich. (Don't rely on me on the spelling of it's name, though)
Alediran 12-13-07, 07:44 AM	There's also the Bael'norn, the good elven Lich. (Don't rely on me on the spelling of it's name, though) It was almost right, just take the ' out, it's Baelnorn. I'm really wondering why it never occurred to me to use the Deathless rules for Archliches before... damn. Thanks DreamStalker. :D As soon as I saw the Deathless type (before knowing about Archliches) I thought, good way to make non-living good spellcasters.
Stigger 12-13-07, 08:00 AM	Sure, for stuff like Wiz-Shades it occurred to me, but not for a lich. Archliches have been around for a while, long before 3e... Alathane Moonstar in Waterdeep, another in some city in the Heartlands that just flew out of my head... another one whom I've also had a brain hiccup over... at least three that I remember, though I'll be damned if I can recall the details of the other two at the moment.
The_Shaman 12-13-07, 08:13 AM	Would the Baelnorn be exactly the same as archliches?
Stigger 12-13-07, 08:15 AM	Nope, Baelnorns are infused with positive energy, which seperates them from pretty much everything except the Deathless as far as I know. Last I looked, archliches were negative energy, but good aligned... though I'll admit its been a long time since I looked.
Lord Karsus 12-14-07, 12:55 AM	Would the Baelnorn be exactly the same as archliches? -No. Baelnorn have additional abilities, such as projection. Nope, Baelnorns are infused with positive energy, which seperates them from pretty much everything except the Deathless as far as I know. -Nope. Baelnorn are infused with Elven High Magic. That is what sustains them. -And, Mummies are also infused with Positive Energy, just so you know.
Stigger 12-14-07, 01:50 AM	Since I looked at the 3e Monsters of Faerun thing with their undead turning ability, I just figured that they were infused with positive energy. Doesn't say either way though in 3e that I'm aware of. Though I'd probably say it was just simply the Weave sustaining them, rather than Elven High Magic, as I've always thought of it as a type of magic rather than a type of arcane energy. Didn't know that about mummies though. Never really used them though, so...
Lord Karsus 12-14-07, 03:00 AM	Didn't know that about mummies though. Never really used them though, so... -Yeah, it's one of Dan's favorite retorts against people who are like "All Undead = Negative Energy = Evil"
Stigger 12-14-07, 03:20 AM	Don't think its so much negative energy that makes it evil... I tend to think of negative energy as more of a symptom than a cause.
Stigger 12-15-07, 05:00 PM	Okay, I've tried looking for it, but I can't find much of anything that says that Mummies are infused with positive energy? Any idea where that comes from? I checked out the MM and Libris Mortis, but nothing in there about it.
Suin Bahhar 12-15-07, 06:12 PM	Okay, I've tried looking for it, but I can't find much of anything that says that Mummies are infused with positive energy? I quite like the notion though. The ancestral rites link the life energy to a prepared body. But what stops this body from exploding as a normal body would on the positive plain? It's undead physique?
Lord Karsus 12-15-07, 10:00 PM	Okay, I've tried looking for it, but I can't find much of anything that says that Mummies are infused with positive energy? Any idea where that comes from? I checked out the MM and Libris Mortis, but nothing in there about it. -A 2e source, I'm sure of that. Which one, though, I'm not sure. I also think that it was the "Greater Mummy", if such a creature exists.
Karsus the Mad 12-16-07, 12:06 AM	I'm just confoozled as to why they're called "arch" lich..... They're hardly synonomous with other "arch" references, such as archmage, archangel, archdemon, etc.... Meh...just yet another of my dislikes of auto "evil" being applied to anything undead...a good lich to me is simply a mage who was good aligned who became a lich. It does make me wonder tho' what a neutral lich would be called....like, oh, Ioulaum? Maybe "Brain Dead"?
Lord Karsus 12-16-07, 12:22 AM	I'm just confoozled as to why they're called "arch" lich..... -I've always wondered that myself. It does make me wonder tho' what a neutral lich would be called....like, oh, Ioulaum? Maybe "Brain Dead"? -Neutralich.
Karsus the Mad 12-16-07, 12:27 AM	Go and ruin my not so funny joke of him being an undead brain why don't ya? :P
Lord Karsus 12-16-07, 12:33 AM	Go and ruin my not so funny joke of him being an undead brain why don't ya? :P -Yeah, yeah, yeah...Clear out some room in your PM box. It's like your ears are clogged, and can't hear anything I send! :P
Stigger 12-16-07, 10:21 AM	2e source... don't think it still applies in 3e from what I've seen of it. Which I must admit, I rather like if only to tweak Dan's nose with it... :D
Lord Karsus 12-16-07, 12:48 PM	2e source... don't think it still applies in 3e from what I've seen of it. Which I must admit, I rather like if only to tweak Dan's nose with it... :D -Well, technically, 3e doesn't make mention of it, which means it still must in in effect. Most things from 2e are still in effect unless something in 3e contradicts it, and says otherwise- the cosmology, for example. I tried IMing Dan last night, but he wasn't around, and I haven't seen him on the boards lately...
Suin Bahhar 12-16-07, 12:52 PM	Could you stat out a sample 3.5 positive energy fueled greater mummy? Or would a standard mummy suffice? Would he look al shriveled and be stinky?
Lord Karsus 12-16-07, 01:00 PM	Could you stat out a sample 3.5 positive energy fueled greater mummy? Or would a standard mummy suffice? Would he look al shriveled and be stinky? -I don't know. Truthfully, I don't even know what a 'Greater Mummy' is. I'm guessing it's a mummy, but one that's stronger and better than others, but...;) -As for what it would look like...A mummy! That's why mummy's are preserved, I guess. The trace Positive Energy within them.
Suin Bahhar 12-16-07, 01:14 PM	Allowing a greater mummy to be fueled by positive energy would give too many questions in my campaign. It's interesting though.
Stigger 12-16-07, 04:11 PM	Not too sure about it... from what I recall, most PE undead usually have turn resistance and the like, but no such mention in 3e. Never seen anything on a Greater Mummy though, so it could be a very different beast with a similar name, so to speak.
Karsus the Mad 12-16-07, 05:45 PM	-Yeah, yeah, yeah...Clear out some room in your PM box. It's like your ears are clogged, and can't hear anything I send! :P Hmm? What was that? I couldn't hear ya. Type louder. -I don't know. Truthfully, I don't even know what a 'Greater Mummy' is. I'm guessing it's a mummy, but one that's stronger and better than others, but... Got this off wiki. ''The Greater Mummy of the Dungeons and Dragons game is a priest of a god (usually an Ancient Egyptian one) who, through enduring mummification and being imbued with dark magic, becomes a creature of the undead much like a mummy. This transformation enables them to continue devoutly serving their deity beyond the veil of death. Greater Mummies have a similar nature to the Lich, as they are both undead spellcasters. The only real difference is the former seeks to further the interests of their deity and the latter desires greater magical power for their own glory. This rules isn't exact, since some mummies want power and some liches respect their god. The obvious physical difference is the method of preservation. In appearance, Greater Mummies look practically the same as the normal kind, save for their priestly garb (usually including their divine patron's holy symbol).'' You can find Greater Mummies in Deities and Demigods, under the Pharaonic Monsters section.
Suin Bahhar 12-16-07, 07:12 PM	Very good. The greater mummies have to be fueled by positive energy otherwise they wouldn't be able to channel their divine lords power when turning. The description talks about dark magic though (this could still be considered as good necromancy perhaps) and undead are negatively affected by healing spells
Storm_Silverhand 12-17-07, 05:01 PM	Heya, -Well, technically, 3e doesn't make mention of it, which means it still must in in effect. Most things from 2e are still in effect unless something in 3e contradicts it, and says otherwise- the cosmology, for example. I tried IMing Dan last night, but he wasn't around, and I haven't seen him on the boards lately... 3e never made mention that Eilitstraee suddenly started accepting male clerics in her clergy, and yet she does. :rolleyes: (And this was the state of things until Ed said "well, she has, but there's restrictions...") Now if a lack of a mention means something hasn't changed, then Eilistraee's clergy should still have been considered gender restricted... But it wasn't. Can we have some consistency please? Yes I'm fully aware of a single mention of a male cleric in a little bit of fluff text that was literally one sentence with a single gender pronoun that could easily have been an editing error (a missing s on she). I can't recall which book it was (Lords of Darkness?), and it wasn't specifically referencing the clergy of Eilistraee, rather it was something about Lolth or maybe Shar.
Lord Karsus 12-17-07, 05:06 PM	3e never made mention that Eilitstraee suddenly started accepting male clerics in her clergy, and yet she does. :rolleyes: (And this was the state of things until Ed said "well, she has, but there's restrictions...") Now if a lack of a mention means something hasn't changed, then Eilistraee's clergy should still have been considered gender restricted... But it wasn't. Can we have some consistency please? Yes I'm fully aware of a single mention of a male cleric in a little bit of fluff text that was literally one sentence with a single gender pronoun that could easily have been an editing error (a missing s on she). I can't recall which book it was (Lords of Darkness?), and it wasn't specifically referencing the clergy of Eilistraee, rather it was something about Lolth or maybe Shar. -Bring it up with the authors, and not me. As a rule, 2e ideas/rules/effects are still in effect unless something in 3e, or now 4e contradicts that. The Lost Dale wasn't mentioned in the FRCS, I don't believe, and was first mentioned in Finder Wyvernspur's write-up in Faiths and Pantheons. That it was not mentioned doesn't mean that it disappeared, until it was mentioned again.
Stigger 12-17-07, 05:14 PM	Thematic contradicitions about for a lot of old stuff really... even if nothing technically said it was one way or another.