Post/Author/DateTime	Post
davethebrave371 12-31-03, 03:23 PM	Ladies and gents, keep it civil, please. I read the thread, and aside from the personal attacks and word bending, there were some very good points. So I'm going to revive it with the simple request that we keep it civil. Dargoth, hope you don't mind: Sean K Reynolds: Let me be entirely fair about this: Forgotten Realms material prior to 3rd Edition D&D was based on the "Great Wheel" cosmology. Forgotten Realms material prior to 3rd Edition D&D was based on the "Great Wheel" cosmology because all D&D cosmologies were the same. If you ever saw the Outer Planes in a D&D product, they were configured according to the Great Wheel. There simply wasn't room for variant cosmologies, especially in the era of the 2nd Edition approach, where all things D&D were forced into the Realms with a giant, magical shoehorn. However, in Ed Greenwood's conception of the Realms planes (as described way back in Dragon Magazine #54, some 6 years before any FR boxed set) wasn't the gods in some larger playground. He wanted the FR deities and no one else, and that is how the Realms were designed, from 1st and later Editions (and even prior to that). Gods of the FR pantheon were intended to rule over the planes in the same manner that Lolth ruled over portions of the Abyss. It was only with the advent of Planescape that we see the heavy mingling of the Great Wheel as it is now known- with its myriad pantheons of various Material Plane worlds- in FR products. The Forgotten Realms are a D&D setting, and have been since the moment they ever saw print. Up until a few years ago, D&D players were told (not suggested), "this is your cosmology," and handed the Great Wheel. Variant cosmologies were not even to be considered. Take a look at the AD&D 1st Edition Player's Handbook, page 120, and see what I mean. The only exception was Dragonlance, which at first had the seeds of a cosmology (the Dome of Creation, the Hidden Vale, and the Abyss), which was later hedged out by the Great Wheel- again, thanks to the 2nd Edition model. Planescape forced the idea of a universal D&D cosmology far into the forefront and, 2nd Edition being what it was, that cosmology was more closely integrated into the Forgotten Realms. The gods became players on a much, much larger stage. Likewise, in the opinions of many FR players, their PCs became much smaller players on that same stage, which was something they- we- didn't particularly appreciate. The heroics of those characters became less heroic, because in the grand scheme of things, they weren't only less meaningful, but if they happened on the Prime, they were almost meaningless. This is not to criticize the Planescape setting itself- which I happen to like- but the idea that any one setting should trump another. The advent of Planescape, and to a somewhat smaller extent, Spelljammer, forced authors to frame the Realms somewhat differently than they might have if given the option. The approach taken in 3E was to give the Realms a cosmology that was, at its core, framed by the Realms, not by generic D&D, nor by Planescape. Those elements can absolutely make their way into individual games if the players want them to, but it's not exactly revisionist history to paint the Realms with color of their own when those options really weren't available in the past. The planes of the Great Wheel weren't just one conception of the multiverse; they were "The Known Planes of Existence." Keep in mind that neither Dragonlance nor the Forgotten Realms had been released as a complete campaign setting yet; there was merely Greyhawk, and home campaigns. FRCS3E is an attempt to give the FR a cosmology of its own, rather than one imposed by the rules of the edition it was originally published under. Prior to 3E, there was no FR cosmology. There was simply a D&D one, and that was part of the problem. Jeff Grubb, author of both iterations of the Manual of the Planes, and someone who has been attached to the development of the Realms since TSR first got the rights to publish it, said: "One of the limitations of the Great Wheel is that it set down the cosmology for the various campaign settings. You could not suddenly discover a new plane -- it just wouldn't fit. The Realms layout creates the chances of new planes (and yes, new gods) showing up." This is from the same man who called the Great Wheel the "Known Planes of Existence" in the original Manual of the Planes, and assigned the gods to their various planar homes in Forgotten Realms Adventures (which is how the FR deities got their planes in the first place). If Jeff, of all people, thinks the old cosmology was limiting for the Realms, and the new one is worthwhile, then I think those who decry the cosmology as presented in the most recent FRCS as too radical a departure from what came before may be a bit too obstinate to ever be convinced. and Dargoth: I have to say I like the new cosmology and therefore I dont consider SKRs changing it a Cardinal sin. The Cardinal sin SKR did commit was not detailing it enough, 2 and half pages in the FRC was no where near enough for such a major change. Im also convinced that this is the main reason people hate the new cosmology ie the old Great wheel is known and has a whole book devoted to i, while the new FR cosmology is brand spanking new and only has 2.5 pages devoted to it. The ideal place to have expanded on the new cosmology was in Faithes and Pantheons. I would have gladly sacrificed the Deity stats for a Chapter on the FR cosmology and im a little disappointed that Sean didnt do this. But in any case we are supposedly going to get a more complete description of the FR cosmology in The Players guide to Faerun, 10-15 pages I believe Rich B said. My opinion: The change doesn't invalidate anything, and in fact, helps to make the Realms feel more unique and interesting. I love Planescape (my favourite setting), but I feel that every campaign should have a unique cosmology, and I can't find one old sourcebook off the top of my head that would be affected adversely by this. It makes adventures such as For Duty and Deity much more epic, because you have to traverse the Shadow to get to an entirely different cosmology! Now that's what I call an adventure!
Kuje31 12-31-03, 03:39 PM	Ive said my peace on this on the other thread however for those that dont claim it doesn't invalidate any thing or rip glaring holes into the firmly established Realmslore here's the list we put together. From this thread. http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=57419&highlight=sarelle -Elves come from another world (teleportation/planeshift/gate spell/portal). -Half-elves/Fey'ri need elves to exist. -Dwarves come from another world (teleportation/planeshift/gate spell/portal). -Orcs come from another world (teleportation/planeshift/gate spell/portal). -Half-orcs/Tanarukk need orcs to exist. -Beholders come from another world (Spelljammer). -Githzerai/Githyanki came from other worlds/planes (in FR yet extraplanar/other worlds) -Tyr, Mielikki, Loviatar, Talona, Tyche (now Tymora and Beshaba), Akadi, Grumbar, Istishia, Kossuth, Kiaransalee (drow necromancer from another world) and Orcus come from other worlds (most stumbled upon Toril while searching for worshippers), as do the old Untheric and Mulhorandi pantheons, not to mention the demihuman and monstrous gods. -Corellon Larethian, Lolth, Garl Glittergold and Moradin's Greyhawk aspects/personalities/versions of. -The peoples of Unther and Mulhorand are descended from people brought from another world via Imaskari portals. -Many spells in the PHB come from another world - mainly Greyhawk, including spells of Mordenkainen's (Mordenkainen’s Sword as seen in Servant of the Shard, Mordenkainen’s Force Missiles etc.) through his Spelljamming/Planewalking (and through other planewalking mages). -The whole Spelljamming campaign, references in novels and pieces of history based on it, such as two short stories in Realms of Magic. -Realmspace (2nd-Edition Spelljammer accessory SJR2) p.73-79 listed Ptah (Greater Power of the Ethereal) is listed on p.78 in the list of deities worshiped in Realmspace. He is a power worshiped within Realmspace, if not Faerūn itself. -The meetings between Elminster, Mordenkainen, Dalamar, Fistandantilus and the Simbul in Ed Greenwood's "Wizards Three" articles of Dragon magazine. -Mordenkainen has visited Waterdeep (and other regions, most likely) before several times in Ed Greenwood's "Wizards Three" articles of Dragon magazine. -An unnamed member of Krynn's Conclave of Wizards, according to Dalamar, once ventured into Undermountain with a partyin Ed Greenwood's "Wizards Three" articles of Dragon magazine. -The rivalry between Khelben and Bigby from Ed Greenwood's "Wizards Three" articles of Dragon magazine. -Khelben the Elder (of FR) being the grandfather of Khelben the Younger (who now resides in Greyhawk), as well as KtE imersonating KtY in Faerūn and the two occasionally visiting each other. -The books Finder's Bane, which partially takes place in Sigil, and Tymora's Luck, where a kender goes to Toril. -Numerous discrepancies about the change of planar structure (references to gods housing up in Celestia/Arborea/Acheron/the Outlands etc.) -Waukeen was rescued from the demon lord Graz'zt in the Abyss, thanks to adventurers who used the Infinite Staircase, a planar pathway. -Graz'zt in For Duty & Deity is a big crossover with Oerth (father of Iuz, etc.) -Near the end of The Halfling's Gem, Drizzt and company end up in the Plane of Tartarus. -In The Silent Blade Rai-guy reflects that the drow who gave him the ritual instructions may have trapped them, and he could very well summon anything from an imp to Demogorgon (not FR any more) himself. -Elminster and Khelben many times said to spend much of their time on other planes and worlds such as Oerth and Krynn. -Gates/portals to other worlds: Yulash, the Chasmleap Bridge, Cloak Wood, the Yuirwood, Weathercote Wood, Undermountain, Dhedluk, the Abbey of the Swords (3e!) and several other places. -Gondegal, who once conquered Arabel, is still alive and well in the demi-plane of Ravenloft. -FR-Ravenloft crossover adventures Castle Spulzeer and The Forgotten Terror. -Elminster's trip to 'our world' -In Tales of the Outer Planes (1st edition adventure OP1) p.4-11 the World Serpent Inn set in Arabel, Cormyr is described - it is basically a planar cantine with gates to all the Outer Planes and many Prime worlds. -In the novel Vampire of the Mists, a Ravenloft accessory (Domains of Dread p.16, and the 2nd-Edition Forgotten Realms accessory, Villains' Lorebook p.16.) during 1098 DR, Jander Sunstar, an elvish vampire, is drawn away from Waterdeep, through The Mists to Barovia (Ravenloft). -The 'old argument' that Takhisis and Paladine were Tiamat and Bahamut. -Kezef (Norse wolf Fenris) the Chaos Hound, from another world, and his encounters with Mask (mentioned in the 3E FR sourcebook Faiths & Pantheons). -That Ed Greenwood originally had Bane come from a pocket of Acheron.
davethebrave371 12-31-03, 04:37 PM	Originally posted by Kuje31 Ive said my peace on this on the other thread however for those that dont claim it doesn't invalidate any thing or rip glaring holes into the firmly established Realmslore here's the list we put together. From this thread. http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=57419&highlight=sarelle -Elves come from another world (teleportation/planeshift/gate spell/portal). -Half-elves/Fey'ri need elves to exist. -Dwarves come from another world (teleportation/planeshift/gate spell/portal). -Orcs come from another world (teleportation/planeshift/gate spell/portal). -Half-orcs/Tanarukk need orcs to exist. -Beholders come from another world (Spelljammer). -Githzerai/Githyanki came from other worlds/planes (in FR yet extraplanar/other worlds) -Tyr, Mielikki, Loviatar, Talona, Tyche (now Tymora and Beshaba), Akadi, Grumbar, Istishia, Kossuth, Kiaransalee (drow necromancer from another world) and Orcus come from other worlds (most stumbled upon Toril while searching for worshippers), as do the old Untheric and Mulhorandi pantheons, not to mention the demihuman and monstrous gods. -Corellon Larethian, Lolth, Garl Glittergold and Moradin's Greyhawk aspects/personalities/versions of. -The peoples of Unther and Mulhorand are descended from people brought from another world via Imaskari portals. -Many spells in the PHB come from another world - mainly Greyhawk, including spells of Mordenkainen's (Mordenkainen’s Sword as seen in Servant of the Shard, Mordenkainen’s Force Missiles etc.) through his Spelljamming/Planewalking (and through other planewalking mages). -The whole Spelljamming campaign, references in novels and pieces of history based on it, such as two short stories in Realms of Magic. -Realmspace (2nd-Edition Spelljammer accessory SJR2) p.73-79 listed Ptah (Greater Power of the Ethereal) is listed on p.78 in the list of deities worshiped in Realmspace. He is a power worshiped within Realmspace, if not Faerūn itself. -The meetings between Elminster, Mordenkainen, Dalamar, Fistandantilus and the Simbul in Ed Greenwood's "Wizards Three" articles of Dragon magazine. -Mordenkainen has visited Waterdeep (and other regions, most likely) before several times in Ed Greenwood's "Wizards Three" articles of Dragon magazine. -An unnamed member of Krynn's Conclave of Wizards, according to Dalamar, once ventured into Undermountain with a partyin Ed Greenwood's "Wizards Three" articles of Dragon magazine. -The rivalry between Khelben and Bigby from Ed Greenwood's "Wizards Three" articles of Dragon magazine. -Khelben the Elder (of FR) being the grandfather of Khelben the Younger (who now resides in Greyhawk), as well as KtE imersonating KtY in Faerūn and the two occasionally visiting each other. -The books Finder's Bane, which partially takes place in Sigil, and Tymora's Luck, where a kender goes to Toril. -Numerous discrepancies about the change of planar structure (references to gods housing up in Celestia/Arborea/Acheron/the Outlands etc.) -Waukeen was rescued from the demon lord Graz'zt in the Abyss, thanks to adventurers who used the Infinite Staircase, a planar pathway. -Graz'zt in For Duty & Deity is a big crossover with Oerth (father of Iuz, etc.) -Near the end of The Halfling's Gem, Drizzt and company end up in the Plane of Tartarus. -In The Silent Blade Rai-guy reflects that the drow who gave him the ritual instructions may have trapped them, and he could very well summon anything from an imp to Demogorgon (not FR any more) himself. -Elminster and Khelben many times said to spend much of their time on other planes and worlds such as Oerth and Krynn. -Gates/portals to other worlds: Yulash, the Chasmleap Bridge, Cloak Wood, the Yuirwood, Weathercote Wood, Undermountain, Dhedluk, the Abbey of the Swords (3e!) and several other places. -Gondegal, who once conquered Arabel, is still alive and well in the demi-plane of Ravenloft. -FR-Ravenloft crossover adventures Castle Spulzeer and The Forgotten Terror. -Elminster's trip to 'our world' -In Tales of the Outer Planes (1st edition adventure OP1) p.4-11 the World Serpent Inn set in Arabel, Cormyr is described - it is basically a planar cantine with gates to all the Outer Planes and many Prime worlds. -In the novel Vampire of the Mists, a Ravenloft accessory (Domains of Dread p.16, and the 2nd-Edition Forgotten Realms accessory, Villains' Lorebook p.16.) during 1098 DR, Jander Sunstar, an elvish vampire, is drawn away from Waterdeep, through The Mists to Barovia (Ravenloft). -The 'old argument' that Takhisis and Paladine were Tiamat and Bahamut. -Kezef (Norse wolf Fenris) the Chaos Hound, from another world, and his encounters with Mask (mentioned in the 3E FR sourcebook Faiths & Pantheons). -That Ed Greenwood originally had Bane come from a pocket of Acheron. -Elves (or any other race) can still come from another world. Two things: 1) The new cosmology makes other Prime (or Prime-like) planes within the cosmology much easier to justify, as there are no preconceived "NO PRIME" notions like in the Great Wheel and 2) Shadow Plane. -See my first point. -See my first point. -See my first point. -See my first point. -See my first point. -See my first point. -See my first point, with the addendum: They are Deities. -See my first point, with the addendum: They are Deities. -See my first point. -Mordekainen is an Epic Level Mage by 3e rules. Since we are talking about 3e rules, he easily had the ability to develop an Epic version of Plane Shift that worked it's way through the Shadow instead of the Astral. No problem. -As for Spelljamming, you can seperate Spelljamming completely from any cosmology. It becomes another way (like Shadow) for beings to travel between Prime worlds with unique cosmologies (like Toril and Krynn and Oerth, all having unique and different cosmologies in 3e, as they did at the start). It's a totally unrelated point. I should know, I ran a Planescape campaign that bled into Spelljamming, and I own all the Spelljammer and Planescape books. -You just proved my point. Ptah is worshipped within (in SJ terms) "Realmspace" which means he has his own place within Toril's unique cosmology. Another aspect of him (like Corellon, Gruumsh, Moradin and the rest) is worshipped on worlds that share the Great Wheel cosmology (such as, but not necessarily, Oerth). Spelljamming, as I said, has nothing to do with Cosmology. -See my point on Mordekainen. -See my point on Mordekainen. -See my point on Mordekainen. -See my point on Mordekainen. -See my point on Mordekainen. -See my first point, and my point on Mordekainen, with the addendum: Finder is a Deity. -Numerous discrepancies? Could you please cite them specifically. -I covered this before you posted this, but I'll repeat myself. See my first point, and my first post. And, as a second option, you could easily convert the adventure by converting everything over to the new Toril cosmology. All it takes is imagination. Off the top of my head example: Change the Infinite Staircase into an Endless River, and modify encounters accordingly. See, imagination. That took me less than a second, imagine what a week of preparation could net me. -That makes sense, as Graz'zt is in the Abyss of Oerth cosmology, and you'd be going to the Oerth cosmology (the Great Wheel) to rescue Waukeen. Alternatively, if you are using a Graz'zt of the Faerun cosmology, it's another version of him (like there are for Corellon, Moradin, Gruumsh, apparently Ptah, etc.) for another cosmology who fathers Iuz. -That can be a new version ala new cosmology. Remember, there is still an Abyss in Krynn, it's just not the same Abyss. Parallel world, if you will. The Faerun cosmology will just have more flexibility. It can have some fairly similar places, but more variety. Just like Krynn has fairly similar places, but less variety (i.e. only three places). -Who says Demogorgon isn't FR anymore? Again, simply another version of him in a different cosmology. For a really good example, look at Tyr of the Viking pantheon, and Tyr of Faerun. One is CG, one is LG. They are fairly different Gods, but still mirrors of each other. Corellon of FR and Corellon of Oerth are two different Gods, but more alike than the two Tyrs. Just divine mirrors. This isn't a 3e concept, it's been around as long as new settings being introduced with the same Gods. -See my point on Mordekainen. -See my first point. -See my first point...although, since it's a demiplane, it could easily have planar links in multiple cosmolgies. That's the cool thing about Demiplanes, they could have manifestations in any cosmology, so long as that cosmology has a place that could hold them. The new FR one definately could. Krynn, I don't know. -See my Demiplane point. -See my first point. -See this web enhancement (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20010921a). -See my Demiplane point. -See my various scattered references to the fact that various Deities have various incarnations in various worlds. And that is assuming that they are incarnations of each other (which I don't necessarily agree with). -Tyr, Tyr. Kezef, Fenris. -Assuming that last one is true, again, it's easy enough to adapt to the new cosmology. To reiterate, I don't see any compatability issues.
Kuje31 12-31-03, 04:42 PM	Originally posted by davethebrave371 To reiterate, I don't see any compatability issues. Fine you don't see them as errors while the many of us do. So none of us will change our minds so let's just agree to disagree and those of us who dislike the new changes and the errors will continue to argue against them. While those who like the changes and like the errors will argue for them. And what do you mean "No Prime?" There has always been a Prime...... Please stop argueing the Shadow Plane connection also. It's OPTIONAL. From the Manual of the Planes Faq: Is there no connection between the FORGOTTEN REALMS cosmology and the Great Wheel at all? You can assume the FORGOTTEN REALMS cosmology is connected to other cosmologies via the Plane of Shadow (as hinted on page 62 of Manual of the Planes). That’s strictly optional, however.
Thrudjelmer 12-31-03, 04:58 PM	Originally posted by davethebrave371 -Who says Demogorgon isn't FR anymore? Again, simply another version of him in a different cosmology. For a really good example, look at Tyr of the Viking pantheon, and Tyr of Faerun. One is CG, one is LG. They are fairly different Gods, but still mirrors of each other. Corellon of FR and Corellon of Oerth are two different Gods, but more alike than the two Tyrs. Just divine mirrors. This isn't a 3e concept, it's been around as long as new settings being introduced with the same Gods. The only problem with this idea is, which one is the reflection and which one is real? Personally, I wouldn't have been so against the new cosmology idea either except for, as mentioned earlier, it was just dropped on us with little explanation which means that everything we had formerly known about the planes is wrong. I understand the idea of limited space in both the FRCS and Faiths & Pantheons and how they had to keep from going overboard on anything or possibly have something else vital get cut out in the editing process, but the least someone could have done was release an official errata Web Enhancement to explain all the changes that come along with the new cosmology. What did we get? For awhile, we got an attitude that basically told us that the planes were not important... that the player characters, who should be firmly grounded on Toril, are the focus of a FR campaign. That's rediculous when so much of Realms history and personas are directly involved in planar travel. So, again... all the resentment, all the bile... it comes from the designers lack of explanation. Personally, I chalk it up to intellectual laziness. Sure, you could point that back at me and say I'm lazy for not explaining the changes myself; but I'm not the one who made the changes to begin with!! Let them fix their mistakes by explaining away the inconsistencies... otherwise, I consider the whole change of cosmology to be an unprofessional mess and have no respect for anyone involved.
davethebrave371 12-31-03, 05:04 PM	Originally posted by Kuje31 Fine you don't see them as errors while the many of us do. So none of us will change our minds so let's just agree to disagree and those of us who dislike the new changes and the errors will continue to argue against them. While those who like the changes and like the errors will argue for them. And what do you mean "No Prime?" There has always been a Prime...... Please stop argueing the Shadow Plane connection also. It's OPTIONAL. From the Manual of the Planes Faq: Is there no connection between the FORGOTTEN REALMS cosmology and the Great Wheel at all? You can assume the FORGOTTEN REALMS cosmology is connected to other cosmologies via the Plane of Shadow (as hinted on page 62 of Manual of the Planes). That’s strictly optional, however. "No prime" attitude, as in "within one cosmology, there is only one prime." That's changed with the new FR. There are other worlds, and they are inhabited. And these other worlds are likely where all the Elves, Dwarves, etc. come from. I just don't understand why you see it as error. I've made valid counterpoints, all I'm hearing back is, "I'm right, you're right, we're all right." The only thing close to valid I've heard thus far is that they're taking too much out of the Great Wheel to make sense of things. However, the things they're taking are things that the Great Wheel didn't have until Ed Greenwood gave his take on things (i.e. they were originally FR unique and the Great Wheel is the one that copied). For example, the Nine Hells. I'm not saying, like you, that I won't change my mind. I could be swayed if I could see any arguments that made any sense. Every single argument you have is refuted by the very nature of the new cosmology. In other words, every planar connection you are talking about is easily explained with the new cosmology's vast expanses of uncharted planes. There are other Prime worlds, so the Elves don't have to have come from another world. Parallel Gods is a point brought up in F&P using Lolth as an example. I would change my mind if the FR writers had no imagination, but fortunately for them, they have a very good imagination, and a love for (and vast knowledge of) the Realms. They have access to all the same stuff gamers do, and then some (like having a chat with Mr. Greenwood). I can find holes in the con arguments, but can you find holes in the pro? I should also note that I am a bigger fan of the Great Wheel anyway, and I've played FR once since 3e. But just because I like the Great Wheel better doesn't mean I have to decide that I won't change my mind, as you have.
davethebrave371 12-31-03, 05:11 PM	Originally posted by Thrudjelmer The only problem with this idea is, which one is the reflection and which one is real? Personally, I wouldn't have been so against the new cosmology idea either except for, as mentioned earlier, it was just dropped on us with little explanation which means that everything we had formerly known about the planes is wrong. I understand the idea of limited space in both the FRCS and Faiths & Pantheons and how they had to keep from going overboard on anything or possibly have something else vital get cut out in the editing process, but the least someone could have done was release an official errata Web Enhancement to explain all the changes that come along with the new cosmology. What did we get? For awhile, we got an attitude that basically told us that the planes were not important... that the player characters, who should be firmly grounded on Toril, are the focus of a FR campaign. That's rediculous when so much of Realms history and personas are directly involved in planar travel. So, again... all the resentment, all the bile... it comes from the designers lack of explanation. Personally, I chalk it up to intellectual laziness. Sure, you could point that back at me and say I'm lazy for not explaining the changes myself; but I'm not the one who made the changes to begin with!! Let them fix their mistakes by explaining away the inconsistencies... otherwise, I consider the whole change of cosmology to be an unprofessional mess and have no respect for anyone involved. First of all, that's taking a very mortal perspective of divine things. Neither is truly a reflection (or if you take an Athar stance, neither is real). If you want to take the mortal stance, that has to have this or that, then the real one is the one from your world. Second of all, I do agree they should have had more explanation, but there is the matter of limited space. Remember, they are planning on releasing a lot more info in the Player's Guide, and if the demand is great (and it seems it is), they'll probably be making a Planes book for FR. They can't give everything away in a WE. Just doesn't make too much business sense. And remember, this is a business. Might not like it, but we gotta wait for the books to come out. In the meantime, whatever we get out of the authors is canon until books say otherwise. And so far, they're justifying it quite nicely, I think.
Kuje31 12-31-03, 05:15 PM	Originally posted by davethebrave371 "No prime" attitude, as in "within one cosmology, there is only one prime." That's changed with the new FR. There are other worlds, and they are inhabited. And these other worlds are likely where all the Elves, Dwarves, etc. come from. I just don't understand why you see it as error. I've made valid counterpoints, all I'm hearing back is, "I'm right, you're right, we're all right." The only thing close to valid I've heard thus far is that they're taking too much out of the Great Wheel to make sense of things. However, the things they're taking are things that the Great Wheel didn't have until Ed Greenwood gave his take on things (i.e. they were originally FR unique and the Great Wheel is the one that copied). For example, the Nine Hells. I'm not saying, like you, that I won't change my mind. I could be swayed if I could see any arguments that made any sense. Every single argument you have is refuted by the very nature of the new cosmology. In other words, every planar connection you are talking about is easily explained with the new cosmology's vast expanses of uncharted planes. There are other Prime worlds, so the Elves don't have to have come from another world. Parallel Gods is a point brought up in F&P using Lolth as an example. I would change my mind if the FR writers had no imagination, but fortunately for them, they have a very good imagination, and a love for (and vast knowledge of) the Realms. They have access to all the same stuff gamers do, and then some (like having a chat with Mr. Greenwood). I can find holes in the con arguments, but can you find holes in the pro? I should also note that I am a bigger fan of the Great Wheel anyway, and I've played FR once since 3e. But just because I like the Great Wheel better doesn't mean I have to decide that I won't change my mind, as you have. Im not seeing it, the Prime in the Great Ring/Wheel is infinite. Of course there are other worlds within the Prime there always has been. There's Greyhawk, theres Realmspace, there's Krynnspace, there's Athas, and there is tons more mentioned in the Planescape material. The Harmonium came from one of them..... I don't get this arguement that there are no other worlds on the Prime. Sure there are there always has been since it is infinite. And actually in 3e FR planes your arguement about there are no other worlds holds more water since FR is now a closed planes and no one supposely has ever gone to these other worlds. This was never true on the Great Ring/Wheel which is why they are errors with the new planes. As Thrudjelmer and others said in the last thread. There was no need to change the planes and change 16 years worth of FR material just because they felt like it. Yes I could make it up myself but it is a silly design flaw that "FR Players should never leave Faerun or Toril and no one does that." SKR has gone on record for saying such silly arguments and they are hogwash.
davethebrave371 12-31-03, 05:28 PM	Originally posted by Kuje31 Im not seeing it, the Prime in the Great Ring/Wheel is infinite. Of course there are other worlds within the Prime there always has been. There's Greyhawk, theres Realmspace, there's Krynnspace, there's Athas, and there is tons more mentioned in the Planescape material. The Harmonium came from one of them..... I don't get this arguement that there are no other worlds on the Prime. Sure there are there always has been since it is infinite. And actually in 3e FR planes your arguement about there are no other worlds holds more water since FR is now a closed planes and no one supposely has ever gone to these other worlds. This was never true on the Great Ring/Wheel which is why they are errors with the new planes. As Thrudjelmer and others said in the last thread. There was no need to change the planes and change 16 years worth of FR material just because they felt like it. Yes I could make it up myself but it is a silly design flaw that "FR Players should never leave Faerun or Toril and no one does that." SKR has gone on record for saying such silly arguments and they are hogwash. You know what, you're right. I don't rightly know what I was talking about with that "No Prime" thing...I was going to say there aren't any other Prime worlds in a given cosmology, but Krynn has other planets within the solar system, some of them inhabited. Forgive me, you're right. But 3e FR is not closed. The argument I was making is saying that within the new cosmology, there is the possibility of entirely other Prime Planes, not just other planets within the same Prime Plane. So, Elves could have come from one of the uncharted Prime worlds in the new (old) FR Cosmology. It's likely what Mr. Greenwood intended in the first place, before he had to convert everything over to the Great Wheel. But what you talk about as Greyspace, Realmspace, etc, etc. is Spelljammer, which can still work with the new cosmology, as SJ is not (as I already said) Cosmology-specific. You can have phlogiston and all that, because it isn't tied to the Great Wheel. You can have Krynnspace (not Great Wheel with the new 3e setting) and Realmspace (not Great Wheel with the new 3e setting) and Greyspace (still Great Wheel) all tied together with the SJ stuff, if you choose to use it (and you seem to like it). Personally, that's one way I could see my players getting between Prime worlds if they ever had need to, because they no longer share a cosmology. But Spelljamming leads you through a kind of space that has nothing to do with the planes, and isn't tied to any plane except the Prime, to another Prime, which could have a totally different cosmology. Also, I completely agree with you on the last point. My players always do planar travelling. But I think it would be refreshing to have a really new, unique place to planar travel through and explore the new stuff in FR's new (original) cosmology.
Thrudjelmer 12-31-03, 05:51 PM	Originally posted by davethebrave371 First of all, that's taking a very mortal perspective of divine things. Neither is truly a reflection (or if you take an Athar stance, neither is real). If you want to take the mortal stance, that has to have this or that, then the real one is the one from your world. I was kind of kidding. The only real issue about multiple aspects of the same god in different "worlds" is are they aware of each other and how do they interact (if at all)? Second of all, I do agree they should have had more explanation, but there is the matter of limited space. Remember, they are planning on releasing a lot more info in the Player's Guide, and if the demand is great (and it seems it is), they'll probably be making a Planes book for FR. They can't give everything away in a WE. Just doesn't make too much business sense. And remember, this is a business. Might not like it, but we gotta wait for the books to come out. In the meantime, whatever we get out of the authors is canon until books say otherwise. And so far, they're justifying it quite nicely, I think. This is, frankly, a big steaming load. In the mean time? Are you aware that these new vs. old cosmology arguements/rants have been going on since day one of the FRCS's release? They had a chance to make amends when they published Faiths & Pantheons, but as pointed out, they dropped the ball in favor of a whole chapter's worth of diety stats... which I understand is what WotC management wanted, not necessarily the game designers. They should have made the book bigger to accomodate an additional chapter or two about the planes. They ignored everyone's complaints and arguements until they decided that we want clarifications enough to pay for them... and any information that we get about the new cosmology in the upcoming PGtFR will only be mechanics of the planes and possibly fluff concerning natives, magic, and good junk like that. We still won't see one bit of official in-game clarification of inconsistencies caused by the change in the cosmology. Its still going to be presented as "Here's the way things are, and that's officially retroactively how they've always been. Deal with it." And that is simply not good enough. I think it is an insult of the highest order to the long term fans of the Forgotten Realms setting... a cheap-shot slap in the face to those of us who have already proved our devotion by buying the countless FR-related products published in prior editions in an attempt to pull in some new blood. As far as I'm concerned, the new blood isn't worth the rewrite and I will actively discourage new players from taking an interest in the blasphemy of the new FR setting. "It stinks, and I hate it." --Jim Norton :mad:
Crust 12-31-03, 05:53 PM	Boy, I smell a thread closing once again.
Kuje31 12-31-03, 05:57 PM	Originally posted by davethebrave371 You know what, you're right. I don't rightly know what I was talking about with that "No Prime" thing...I was going to say there aren't any other Prime worlds in a given cosmology, but Krynn has other planets within the solar system, some of them inhabited. Forgive me, you're right. But 3e FR is not closed. The argument I was making is saying that within the new cosmology, there is the possibility of entirely other Prime Planes, not just other planets within the same Prime Plane. So, Elves could have come from one of the uncharted Prime worlds in the new (old) FR Cosmology. It's likely what Mr. Greenwood intended in the first place, before he had to convert everything over to the Great Wheel. But what you talk about as Greyspace, Realmspace, etc, etc. is Spelljammer, which can still work with the new cosmology, as SJ is not (as I already said) Cosmology-specific. You can have phlogiston and all that, because it isn't tied to the Great Wheel. You can have Krynnspace (not Great Wheel with the new 3e setting) and Realmspace (not Great Wheel with the new 3e setting) and Greyspace (still Great Wheel) all tied together with the SJ stuff, if you choose to use it (and you seem to like it). Personally, that's one way I could see my players getting between Prime worlds if they ever had need to, because they no longer share a cosmology. But Spelljamming leads you through a kind of space that has nothing to do with the planes, and isn't tied to any plane except the Prime, to another Prime, which could have a totally different cosmology. Ah but we are also supposed to believe that spelljammer never happened and the 3e team has written out any and all spelljammer references. There's just a small blurb about the other planets of Realmspace in the FRCS. Since Planescape and Spelljammer are no longer supported they are being written out of FR's history. As I said we are now supposed to believe that the planes in 3E have always been that way and that FR has never been connected to the Great Wheel/Ring and these other worlds don't exist since each campaign world is totally seperate and contain thier own closed cosmology which also is not officially connected to each other by Spelljammer either. So yes I could and do use Spelljammer but like the Great Wheel/Ring it has been retconned out leaving holes in the history of the setting. Sure I agree with FR was originally not part of the Wheel/Ring but it was firmly detailed as such in the existing material that came out later and to rip it out now is just a insult to old designers and those who own the old material. I can and do change my FR to fit but I also use much of the official material and many of us feel its a insult that they needed to change the planes when there was no reason to and thus either invalidating our old material or if we don't switch then invalidating our new material.
Ssussunriyh 12-31-03, 05:59 PM	Guys... who really cares? Personally, there is very little interplanar travel in my games. And the rare times when there is, the characters simply go through a portal or gate and there they are. They don't need to ask directions or buy a Triple-A road map of the cosmos. "Let's see now... we take a left turn at Albequerque..." And besides, in a cosmic sense, apparent inconsistancies are perfectly normal. They're called paradoxes. Mortal minds were not meant to be able to comprehend the workings of the multiverse, either IC or OOC. I think all this cosmo-babble is a waste of time to write, publish, and read. (Which is why I didn't buy MotP, and skipped over the Cosmology chapter in FRCS.)
Kuje31 12-31-03, 06:00 PM	Originally posted by Crust Boy, I smell a thread closing once again. Hmm maybe, but none of us has flamed each other yet like what happened in the other thread. So far we have discussed this rationally instead of starting personal attacks and name calling. Or as rationally as we can about some thing we feel strongly about.
Kuje31 12-31-03, 06:04 PM	Originally posted by Ssussunriyh Guys... who really cares? Personally, there is very little interplanar travel in my games. And the rare times when there is, the characters simply go through a portal or gate and there they are. They don't need to ask directions or buy a Triple-A road map of the cosmos. "Let's see now... we take a left turn at Albequerque..." And besides, in a cosmic sense, apparent inconsistancies are perfectly normal. They're called paradoxes. Mortal minds were not meant to be able to comprehend the workings of the multiverse, either IC or OOC. I think all this cosmo-babble is a waste of time to write, publish, and read. (Which is why I didn't buy MotP, and skipped over the Cosmology chapter in FRCS.) Ah. You might not care, but some of us do. I run a lot of planar games that span the Multiverse. Just because you don't doesn't mean the rest of us don't care. My planar games pc's do need to ask directions or find maps since the planes are infinite. These are more then inconsistancies, they are outright errors. There is a difference in saying there are no other worlds and no one in FR knows about them when clearly such is not the case since many planeswalkers from other worlds have come to FR and vice versa.
davethebrave371 12-31-03, 06:09 PM	Originally posted by Thrudjelmer I was kind of kidding. The only real issue about multiple aspects of the same god in different "worlds" is are they aware of each other and how do they interact (if at all)? This is, frankly, a big steaming load. In the mean time? Are you aware that these new vs. old cosmology arguements/rants have been going on since day one of the FRCS's release? They had a chance to make amends when they published Faiths & Pantheons, but as pointed out, they dropped the ball in favor of a whole chapter's worth of diety stats... which I understand is what WotC management wanted, not necessarily the game designers. They should have made the book bigger to accomodate an additional chapter or two about the planes. They ignored everyone's complaints and arguements until they decided that we want clarifications enough to pay for them... and any information that we get about the new cosmology in the upcoming PGtFR will only be mechanics of the planes and possibly fluff concerning natives, magic, and good junk like that. We still won't see one bit of official in-game clarification of inconsistencies caused by the change in the cosmology. Its still going to be presented as "Here's the way things are, and that's officially retroactively how they've always been. Deal with it." And that is simply not good enough. I think it is an insult of the highest order to the long term fans of the Forgotten Realms setting... a cheap-shot slap in the face to those of us who have already proved our devotion by buying the countless FR-related products published in prior editions in an attempt to pull in some new blood. As far as I'm concerned, the new blood isn't worth the rewrite and I will actively discourage new players from taking an interest in the blasphemy of the new FR setting. "It stinks, and I hate it." --Jim Norton :mad: No, actually, I was not aware! I've only noticed them...well...today. I never had a problem with what little they gave us in MotP and FRCS, which is why I was so surprised that everyone is up in a huff about it! I find that if a DM has a little imagination, a game can be good. If a DM has a lot of imagination, you don't even need an official campaign setting, you can just homebrew it. But even with a little imagination, I figured people could see how it was supposed to work. I suppose extrapolation is too much for some. I automatically did it, but I suppose I'm naturally a) a more optimistic person than most and b) a very imaginative person. I think the new setting is quite worth the buy, and I don't even play it. It's got plenty of great material you can yank for any setting, even your own homebrew (which is me), and the sourcebooks keep rolling out with great stuff. I use the Great Wheel cosmology on my world. But I find this new cosmology refreshing, and I don't personally think it's necessary to have more than 2.5 pages on it. I got all I needed out of that 2.5, no fuss, no mess. I'm only now discovering that multitudes of people have fundamental problems with inventing things, having to take canon or no canon, and if it's canon they don't like, they ignore it and then whine that they're ignoring it. The new canon does not conflict with the old canon, if you agree with the new canon. If you don't agree with something, you'll always find something wrong. I guess that's just the way things are. I'll continue to argue my point with as much of an abscence of bias as anyone can (as I've said before, I'm a big fan of the Great Wheel, and don't even play FR since the 3e stuff came out). If I wanted to go all out with my own opinion, I'd say stuff FR, play your own stuff, then the only problems are the ones you create for yourself. But I'm trying to see both sides, and after seeing arguments both sides, and drawing from my own personal experience of approximately 5 minutes of thought to correct all discrepancies in the planar switch, I decided to make my own point! I respect your point of course, you're entitled to your own thoughts and opinions. I just don't really see the need to get all strung out and angry about something that is a) easily ignorable if you don't want to use it and b) easily correctable if you want to use it. I don't see what all the fuss is about is all. And after hearing people attempt to say why they're fussing (in this thread and others, on this forum and others), all I can say is the only reason I can see is selective hearing...well, reading I suppose. :D Ah well.
davethebrave371 12-31-03, 06:20 PM	Originally posted by Kuje31 Ah but we are also supposed to believe that spelljammer never happened and the 3e team has written out any and all spelljammer references. There's just a small blurb about the other planets of Realmspace in the FRCS. Since Planescape and Spelljammer are no longer supported they are being written out of FR's history. As I said we are now supposed to believe that the planes in 3E have always been that way and that FR has never been connected to the Great Wheel/Ring and these other worlds don't exist since each campaign world is totally seperate and contain thier own closed cosmology which also is not officially connected to each other by Spelljammer either. So yes I could and do use Spelljammer but like the Great Wheel/Ring it has been retconned out leaving holes in the history of the setting. Sure I agree with FR was originally not part of the Wheel/Ring but it was firmly detailed as such in the existing material that came out later and to rip it out now is just a insult to old designers and those who own the old material. I can and do change my FR to fit but I also use much of the official material and many of us feel its a insult that they needed to change the planes when there was no reason to and thus either invalidating our old material or if we don't switch then invalidating our new material. Two points: One, they haven't written out SJ, they just haven't mentioned it much. And the new supercedes the old (always has) in matters of "which is right" so, seeing as SJ hasn't been declared wrong, it's still 100% valid. Two, some of the old designers are the ones who are apparently insulting themselves by writing this new stuff, as well as the fact that I've already told you why your old material is still perfectly usable. If you don't switch, you can still use the new, and if you do, you can still use the old. I really don't see where you're coming from. If where you're coming from is your list, then I've already responded. If you don't agree with Shadow, you are invalidating your old material, not WotC, nor the new authors or the new books or the new planes. You, the consumer. If you choose not to use what they have on hand, that isn't their fault. All the arguments I've heard so far are basically, "Because I don't agree, I'll go out of my way to destroy the existing possibilities, thus making myself even more angry at WotC, as well as refusing to think up a new alternative specific to my campaign." I just don't get why people want to infuriate themselves against WotC! I didn't like some of the things they did with Drizzt after the original series of books. Do I say "That just doesn't make any sense, Drizzt wouldn't do that!" and then, after an author says, "Well, actually, yes he would." I say "Ok, only I don't agree with that, give me another explanation." and every explanation I'm given, I refute. That doesn't get you anywhere, but it's what's happening with the nay-sayers. "You can get there by the Shadow." "Nope, try again." If you're going to disagree no matter what, what's the point of arguing? I'm willing to listen to arguments, but it's circular. I refute something, and people come back with the same point I already refuted. *shrugs*
Dargoth 12-31-03, 06:21 PM	Addressing a few of the inconsitencys Regarding spells with invented by Greyhawk Wizards Option 1: There was never any contact with Greyhawk and all those spells where invented by Wizards in the Realms, (and the spells only bare there name so as to avoid confusion to players in PHB). An historical example of this would be that the Incas in south America developed the wheel long before the Europeans arrived Option 2: The Greyhawk spells where introduced to Faerun during one of those cross world migrations such as the Mulan and Grey Orcs ie as a result of 10+ spells, it once was possiable to visit other worlds but due to Mystras denial it is no longer possiable. Regarding the inconistencys with the FR cosmology and the Great Wheel Option 1: The shearing off of the FR from the great wheel could be explained by the dawn catacylsm. When Lathander caused the Dawn cataclysm it tore the very fabric of the planes creating a rift between the Great wheel and the realms of Faeruns gods this created a seperate set of planes used by the FR gods. Option 2: Ao decides that the FR has to many gods and in 1373 use his power as the over god to cleave the FR realms from the great wheel so no other gods can migrate into his domain ineffect Ao has repeated what he did to the Mulan gods but on a much greater scale no god or person may travel from the Great wheel to Faerun anymore
davethebrave371 12-31-03, 06:23 PM	Originally posted by Kuje31 Hmm maybe, but none of us has flamed each other yet like what happened in the other thread. So far we have discussed this rationally instead of starting personal attacks and name calling. Or as rationally as we can about some thing we feel strongly about. Well, rationality would indicate that one is willing to provide a rational argument to counter a rational argument. As I just mentioned, I haven't been hearing much of that. This isn't a personal attack, just sort of a call to logic. When I make a point, it'd be nice if it was answered! I've answered all of your points, maybe you could do the same? Just a polite request, not an attack! :)
Wooly Rupert 12-31-03, 06:26 PM	The point is that they changed something that did not need to be changed. This change either invalidates previously established material, or requires DMs to figure out a work-around. We should not have to figure out how to fix something that the designers broke. I don't care if it's as easy as changing a name. The previous system worked quite well, and now it's gone. And then, after doing all this, the explanation offered doesn't explain why, in-game, the changes happened. It's just, "well, things were supposed to be like this 20 years ago, so we went back to it." I am not as vehemently opposed to the changes as some, but I do want to see them explained better. And if my players want to leave the Realms, the option should be there.
davethebrave371 12-31-03, 06:29 PM	Originally posted by Ssussunriyh Guys... who really cares? Personally, there is very little interplanar travel in my games. And the rare times when there is, the characters simply go through a portal or gate and there they are. They don't need to ask directions or buy a Triple-A road map of the cosmos. "Let's see now... we take a left turn at Albequerque..." And besides, in a cosmic sense, apparent inconsistancies are perfectly normal. They're called paradoxes. Mortal minds were not meant to be able to comprehend the workings of the multiverse, either IC or OOC. I think all this cosmo-babble is a waste of time to write, publish, and read. (Which is why I didn't buy MotP, and skipped over the Cosmology chapter in FRCS.) I hear that! It's one of the reasons I really liked Planescape's approach. Sure, most people knew where one place or another was, and that's how you found out. But in the Great Wheel, you can't just get a map, and even recent directions (like some Paladin just back to Sigil from Plaguemort, telling you exactly how long it'll take you at what pace, etc) could be completely off, due to the fact that belief shapes the Planes. If something is in a slightly different place in Limbo, it's because it's chaos! If it's in a slightly different place in Mechanus, it's probably got some complicated and well thought out reason behind it, etc, etc. There's no such thing as a map of the planes, so I whole-heartedly agree that inconsistencies are simply keeping with the paradoxial nature of planar travel. But I still like to have guidelines to mess around with, so I did buy MotP.
Kuje31 12-31-03, 06:32 PM	Originally posted by davethebrave371 Two points: Two, some of the old designers are the ones who are apparently insulting themselves by writing this new stuff, as well as the fact that I've already told you why your old material is still perfectly usable. If you don't switch, you can still use the new, and if you do, you can still use the old. I really don't see where you're coming from. If where you're coming from is your list, then I've already responded. If you don't agree with Shadow, you are invalidating your old material, not WotC, nor the new authors or the new books or the new planes. You dont huh? Fine if I do switch then ive lost 100's on old material thus invalidating over 100 sourcebooks and over 100 novels. If I don't switch then I still invalidate parts of the new materials and novels. Yes I can and do make up things and it has nothing to do with imagination thank you very much. If you choose not to use what they have on hand, that isn't their fault. All the arguments I've heard so far are basically, "Because I don't agree, I'll go out of my way to destroy the existing possibilities, thus making myself even more angry at WotC, as well as refusing to think up a new alternative specific to my campaign." I just don't get why people want to infuriate themselves against WotC! I didn't like some of the things they did with Drizzt after the original series of books. Do I say "That just doesn't make any sense, Drizzt wouldn't do that!" and then, after an author says, "Well, actually, yes he would." I say "Ok, only I don't agree with that, give me another explanation." and every explanation I'm given, I refute. That doesn't get you anywhere, but it's what's happening with the nay-sayers. "You can get there by the Shadow." "Nope, try again." If you're going to disagree no matter what, what's the point of arguing? I'm willing to listen to arguments, but it's circular. I refute something, and people come back with the same point I already refuted. *shrugs*[/QUOTE] It's not thier fault you right it isnt, in the sense I dont want to switch. But it is thier fault for dropping such a change without giving a reason why and thus changing and ripping holes into much of FR's history and not detailing how such changes came into effect or where Maztica, Kara-Tur, Zakhara, and other humanoid and demihuman pantheons now reside. Getting there from the Shadow isn't official (yes some of us DO care about official material, even if we don't always use such official material.) So that is not a valid answer to explain away these errors. You might feel it is, but since it is only optional others don't.
Dargoth 12-31-03, 06:35 PM	Man 3 times Ive posted multiple legimate explantion on how the inconsistencys can be addressed but no one has responded to them!!
davethebrave371 12-31-03, 06:35 PM	Originally posted by Wooly Rupert The point is that they changed something that did not need to be changed. This change either invalidates previously established material, or requires DMs to figure out a work-around. We should not have to figure out how to fix something that the designers broke. I don't care if it's as easy as changing a name. The previous system worked quite well, and now it's gone. And then, after doing all this, the explanation offered doesn't explain why, in-game, the changes happened. It's just, "well, things were supposed to be like this 20 years ago, so we went back to it." I am not as vehemently opposed to the changes as some, but I do want to see them explained better. And if my players want to leave the Realms, the option should be there. Well, I suppose that is valid. If a campaign setting is official, it should have it's own explanation for everything, without DMs having to figure something out. I don't necessarily agree with the viewpoint, but I definately understand it. The reason some people buy Campaign Settings is because they don't want to have to go the effort of creating their own, and that's perfectly reasonable. If they all of a sudden have to, that kind of defeats the purpose of the purchase. But, just to respond to your point about explanations, I don't feel they needed to, because the way they've explained the new cosmology so far, everything that used to be there can still be there (which is why there are people complaining that the new cosmology is like a copy of the Great Wheel, but not). They just put things that needed to be there into new places. They aren't necessarily copies though, because these new planes now don't have to be the generic location on the Great Wheel, they can be custom made to the Devil or Demon or Deity, and they can be personal realms instead of one realm where every LG Deity goes, etc, etc. I think that provides more freedom (as much as I still prefer the Great Wheel). And last point, the option is there, through the Shadow Plane, which makes for some interesting moral quandries if you want to involve a Shadow Adept who is their only means there, and requires a quest of them before he will transport them...see? More plot devices! Excellent! :D
Kuje31 12-31-03, 06:36 PM	Originally posted by davethebrave371 Well, rationality would indicate that one is willing to provide a rational argument to counter a rational argument. As I just mentioned, I haven't been hearing much of that. This isn't a personal attack, just sort of a call to logic. When I make a point, it'd be nice if it was answered! I've answered all of your points, maybe you could do the same? Just a polite request, not an attack! :) How have I not answered your arguements? I have done so and did so in the old thread. As have the others who have argued against these changes. All of our replies are valid arguements why we don't like the changes....... So how have I not answered you?
Kuje31 12-31-03, 06:40 PM	Originally posted by Dargoth Addressing a few of the inconsitencys Regarding spells with invented by Greyhawk Wizards Option 1: There was never any contact with Greyhawk and all those spells where invented by Wizards in the Realms, (and the spells only bare there name so as to avoid confusion to players in PHB). An historical example of this would be that the Incas in south America developed the wheel long before the Europeans arrived Option 2: The Greyhawk spells where introduced to Faerun during one of those cross world migrations such as the Mulan and Grey Orcs ie as a result of 10+ spells, it once was possiable to visit other worlds but due to Mystras denial it is no longer possiable. Regarding the inconistencys with the FR cosmology and the Great Wheel Option 1: The shearing off of the FR from the great wheel could be explained by the dawn catacylsm. When Lathander caused the Dawn cataclysm it tore the very fabric of the planes creating a rift between the Great wheel and the realms of Faeruns gods this created a seperate set of planes used by the FR gods. Option 2: Ao decides that the FR has to many gods and in 1373 use his power as the over god to cleave the FR realms from the great wheel so no other gods can migrate into his domain ineffect Ao has repeated what he did to the Mulan gods but on a much greater scale no god or person may travel from the Great wheel to Faerun anymore The only one on I can even remotly see as plausable is the last one. Since the other three of conflict with established realms lore and we have enough of that already!
davethebrave371 12-31-03, 06:42 PM	Originally posted by Kuje31 You dont huh? Fine if I do switch then ive lost 100's on old material thus invalidating over 100 sourcebooks and over 100 novels. If I don't switch then I still invalidate parts of the new materials and novels. Yes I can and do make up things and it has nothing to do with imagination thank you very much. It's not thier fault you right it isnt, in the sense I dont want to switch. But it is thier fault for dropping such a change without giving a reason why and thus changing and ripping holes into much of FR's history and not detailing how such changes came into effect or where Maztica, Kara-Tur, Zakhara, and other humanoid and demihuman pantheons now reside. Getting there from the Shadow isn't official (yes some of us DO care about official material, even if we don't always use such official material.) So that is not a valid answer to explain away these errors. You might feel it is, but since it is only optional others don't. You still haven't told me how the old stuff is invalidated and the new stuff is invalidated if you don't use the new stuff. How is the change ripping holes in FR's history? The change is purely cosmetic! Nothing has changed, and all those worlds that came in, came in however the DM chooses. If you want it to be because it's still the Great Wheel, it is, and that does not invalidate any of the new stuff. If it's the old stuff, the only official answer is the optional answer. It's still official. Just because it's optional, doesn't mean you must not ever use it. It means, if there is no other option, you choose that. In other words, they're saying, "Can't think for yourself? Use this." Obviously, you can think for yourself. So, why not come up with your own explanation? If you want an official one, then use the Shadow one, because it is official. If there is nothing else to use, something said in an official WotC FAQ or Errata or Web Enhancement becomes the official line until such time as a book comes out with the info you desire. And, I can almost guarantee you, they'll either come up with their own unique explanation (which, again, you could do now and save time) or they'll use the Shadow explanation. As well, those Pantheons that you mentioned reside in Planes within the new cosmology. But the big question I want answered is how exactly are old books invalidated by new ones or vice versa? You still haven't given any solid examples?
davethebrave371 12-31-03, 06:46 PM	Originally posted by Kuje31 How have I not answered your arguements? I have done so and did so in the old thread. As have the others who have argued against these changes. All of our replies are valid arguements why we don't like the changes....... So how have I not answered you? Actually, no. When I presented a long list of counter arguments, the only thing you responded with is that the Shadow Plane wasn't official enough for you. You didn't respond to the fact that within the new cosmology, there are Prime planes that any of the races, or different varieties of humans, could have come from, no problem.
Dargoth 12-31-03, 06:52 PM	Originally posted by Kuje31 The only one on I can even remotly see as plausable is the last one. Since the other three of conflict with established realms lore and we have enough of that already! I actually prefer option 1 that the rift is a delayed reaction from the Dawn Cataclytsm after all Eric Boyd sai the DC happaned throughout time and it mostly effected the planes.
Kuje31 12-31-03, 07:03 PM	Originally posted by davethebrave371 Actually, no. When I presented a long list of counter arguments, the only thing you responded with is that the Shadow Plane wasn't official enough for you. You didn't respond to the fact that within the new cosmology, there are Prime planes that any of the races, or different varieties of humans, could have come from, no problem. It's not "official." It's optional, meaning that WOTC does not consider it official so no FR does not connect to the other worlds through the Shadow Plane as a official answer. So we still have the errors that exist because of this. You might agree that it's official but it's not, so many of us are still looking for a official answer that explains how the planes happened all of a sudden and how it effects the errors that are clearly detailed by us the fans. If I use the old material then none of the new planes are used thus invalidating parts of the FRCS, parts of Faiths & Pantheons, parts of the new novels, parts of the up coming Players Guide. If I use the new planes then parts of 100+ novels and sourcebooks are thus invalidated since the worlds are not connected together and thus none of the things in the history of the world happened. How many times have I repeated this? I said it before it was not broke and it did not need to be fixed and now it is even more broke. If you seriously can't see how these changes invalidated parts of the old material or if using the old material invalidates the new material then you arn't looking hard enough. They moved deities around and many of the groupings of said deities make even less sense, they did away with some planes totally and there are no 3e FR conterparts to them. They added new planes that are not in the old material, etc. Ive had this discussion before take Lolth for example every material says she lives in the Abyss. Nope not any more she lives in the Demon Web Pits. Yes this was part of the Abyss but now they are two SEPERATE areas. Or Eilistraee, it makes no sense she lives with the elven deities since she exiled herself from them, but all of a sudden she lives back with them, even though she almost killed Corellon. FINE tell us HOW that happened and why is she allowed back into Arvandor. Your answer of using the Shadow Plane is not a answer since it is not official it's optional. I could make this up but why should I have to make up some thing that was firmly detailed. Not every one has hours to make up these things and it has nothing to do with being unimaginative but usually it has every thing to do with, do we have the time to detail things that were fine until they decided to change some thing that did not need changed.
Wooly Rupert 12-31-03, 07:06 PM	Originally posted by davethebrave371 Well, I suppose that is valid. If a campaign setting is official, it should have it's own explanation for everything, without DMs having to figure something out. I don't necessarily agree with the viewpoint, but I definately understand it. The reason some people buy Campaign Settings is because they don't want to have to go the effort of creating their own, and that's perfectly reasonable. If they all of a sudden have to, that kind of defeats the purpose of the purchase. But, just to respond to your point about explanations, I don't feel they needed to, because the way they've explained the new cosmology so far, everything that used to be there can still be there (which is why there are people complaining that the new cosmology is like a copy of the Great Wheel, but not). They just put things that needed to be there into new places. They aren't necessarily copies though, because these new planes now don't have to be the generic location on the Great Wheel, they can be custom made to the Devil or Demon or Deity, and they can be personal realms instead of one realm where every LG Deity goes, etc, etc. I think that provides more freedom (as much as I still prefer the Great Wheel). And last point, the option is there, through the Shadow Plane, which makes for some interesting moral quandries if you want to involve a Shadow Adept who is their only means there, and requires a quest of them before he will transport them...see? More plot devices! Excellent! :D Granted, that does provide some plot devices... And granted, everything is still there. But... Why does a mage who wants to go to, say, Baator, suddenly have to route himself there thru the Shadow Plane, when before he could go directly there? Or, to use your example, say my character wants to go hang out in Mount Celestia. He went in 1368, and he went straight there. Now, in 1372/1373, he's got to cut thru the Shadow Plane. He went directly before, so how come he can't do it now? Having to now route everything thru the Shadow Plane is kinda like saying that sure, planes used to fly straight from Atlanta to New York, but now they've all got to go to Dallas/Ft. Worth before they can go anywhere else! And as I said in another thread, when they brought the Realms from 1st to 2nd edition, they used the ToT to explain the changes, even though there's not all that much difference between the two. I'm not saying I want another Realm-shattering event, but now the only explanations we get for changes are either "it's always been like that, and no one knew about it" or "well, everybody thought it was this way before, but it really wasn't."
Kuje31 12-31-03, 07:12 PM	Originally posted by Dargoth I actually prefer option 1 that the rift is a delayed reaction from the Dawn Cataclytsm after all Eric Boyd sai the DC happaned throughout time and it mostly effected the planes. Maybe but as I said it conflicts with established realmslore. :) I guess it could work......
davethebrave371 12-31-03, 07:16 PM	Originally posted by Wooly Rupert Granted, that does provide some plot devices... And granted, everything is still there. But... Why does a mage who wants to go to, say, Baator, suddenly have to route himself there thru the Shadow Plane, when before he could go directly there? Or, to use your example, say my character wants to go hang out in Mount Celestia. He went in 1368, and he went straight there. Now, in 1372/1373, he's got to cut thru the Shadow Plane. He went directly before, so how come he can't do it now? Having to now route everything thru the Shadow Plane is kinda like saying that sure, planes used to fly straight from Atlanta to New York, but now they've all got to go to Dallas/Ft. Worth before they can go anywhere else! And as I said in another thread, when they brought the Realms from 1st to 2nd edition, they used the ToT to explain the changes, even though there's not all that much difference between the two. I'm not saying I want another Realm-shattering event, but now the only explanations we get for changes are either "it's always been like that, and no one knew about it" or "well, everybody thought it was this way before, but it really wasn't." Ahhhhh! I see the light! Now I understand, and yes, I agree with you. They need a ToT-style explanation. Thank you, you were very clear, and didn't just reiterate your previous points! :D
Yamo 12-31-03, 07:21 PM	Prior to 3E, there was no FR cosmology. There was simply a D&D one, and that was part of the problem. SKR and I clearly hold very different definitions of the word "problem." Well enough should have been left alone and that's all I have to say about that.
Dargoth 12-31-03, 07:24 PM	Originally posted by Kuje31 Maybe but as I said it conflicts with established realmslore. :) I guess it could work...... Something else to consider The DC caused the death of alot of gods and when a god dies its realm is ripped off the plane it was on and dumped into the Astral plane, so theres are literal holes in the planes where dead gods used to live. If you think of the planes a piece of cloth then the DC would have had the affect of hacking into that piece of cloth with a sharp knife it likely that the piece of cloth would split
davethebrave371 12-31-03, 07:39 PM	Originally posted by Kuje31 It's not "official." It's optional, meaning that WOTC does not consider it official so no FR does not connect to the other worlds through the Shadow Plane as a official answer. So we still have the errors that exist because of this. You might agree that it's official but it's not, so many of us are still looking for a official answer that explains how the planes happened all of a sudden and how it effects the errors that are clearly detailed by us the fans. If I use the old material then none of the new planes are used thus invalidating parts of the FRCS, parts of Faiths & Pantheons, parts of the new novels, parts of the up coming Players Guide. If I use the new planes then parts of 100+ novels and sourcebooks are thus invalidated since the worlds are not connected together and thus none of the things in the history of the world happened. How many times have I repeated this? I said it before it was not broke and it did not need to be fixed and now it is even more broke. If you seriously can't see how these changes invalidated parts of the old material or if using the old material invalidates the new material then you arn't looking hard enough. They moved deities around and many of the groupings of said deities make even less sense, they did away with some planes totally and there are no 3e FR conterparts to them. They added new planes that are not in the old material, etc. Ive had this discussion before take Lolth for example every material says she lives in the Abyss. Nope not any more she lives in the Demon Web Pits. Yes this was part of the Abyss but now they are two SEPERATE areas. Or Eilistraee, it makes no sense she lives with the elven deities since she exiled herself from them, but all of a sudden she lives back with them, even though she almost killed Corellon. FINE tell us HOW that happened and why is she allowed back into Arvandor. Your answer of using the Shadow Plane is not a answer since it is not official it's optional. I could make this up but why should I have to make up some thing that was firmly detailed. Not every one has hours to make up these things and it has nothing to do with being unimaginative but usually it has every thing to do with, do we have the time to detail things that were fine until they decided to change some thing that did not need changed. Wooly Rupert has provided me with a very good explanation, and I definately agree now that they need to explain it, but I still don't understand your reasons. Let's go point by point, shall we? Firstly, if there is no other answer, the only one offered by Wizards of the Coast becomes the official answer. Is there any other answer? Can you tell me where one can be found? Please, direct me to the page number or website address where anything other than that is said. As well, one should note that literally everything, in any setting whatsoever, is optional. You never have to use everything, or anything, unless you're the guy writing the stuff, and then only because you made it up, so you're probably quite proud of it. The ToT was completely ignored in some people's campaigns, because people thought it was dumb. I thought it was pretty cool myself. But some people still deny it happened in their games. Why? Because it was optional. It's amazing how that one little sentance, that they added to the end of that question, changes your whole perspective. If they added that to the end of every sentance in the FRCS, you'd be singing a different tune...namely, "STOP SAYING EVERYTHING IS OPTIONAL, WE KNOW!" However, I agree to the extent that if you only use canon material, and are strictly official, you may choose to consider things actually labeled with "optional" completely invalid. And that's fine. So, because I'm not saying you're wrong (just have a different opinion), let's just leave it at that. Shadow is not official (despite coming from an official source and being the only word on the subject), and you won't use it because you don't use anything that you see as being "unofficial." Secondly, you STILL haven't told me what it invalidates. Let's say I'm not looking hard enough. Direct me to a place where I can look and find it. Assuming this is how it always was, Shadow explains it. However, because they haven't yet said that this is how it always was, let's assume the best, and say that the Great Wheel, up until very recently, was the standard cosmology. Then, everything that passed before still makes sense. If not, then I agree with you, and they are really stupid for changing it retroactively. But they haven't done that yet. The groupings, to me, make perfect sense, with the exception of Eilistraee. But neither did the 2e formation make much sense. Entire pantheons were seperated all over the place...so what are you complaining about? Now they're together, which makes sense. 3e = One error. 2e = too many to count. I don't agree with your point on Lolth, because the Demon Web Pits were not always part of the Abyss, so obviously they could easily be said to be different. And, to bring back a previous point, it took me 5 minutes, not an hour. And even an hour isn't that much time. If you decide to have one crappy gaming session and spend your DM prep time you afford yourself over the course of the week SOLELY on planar questions, you'll have an extensive planar explanation, and one session that you have to go free-form spontaneous DM on, followed by quite a few more that will be the richer for your time spent figuring it all out. However, I agree you shouldn't have to do that...so use the Shadow Plane! It's ready, prepared, right there for you. Again, I agree with your stance now, because I was enlightened as to a good reason why the whole thing needs explaining. But your reasons still don't make any sense, and you STILL haven't explained your most important points.
Kuje31 12-31-03, 07:40 PM	Originally posted by Dargoth Something else to consider The DC caused the death of alot of gods and when a god dies its realm is ripped off the plane it was on and dumped into the Astral plane, so theres are literal holes in the planes where dead gods used to live. If you think of the planes a piece of cloth then the DC would have had the affect of hacking into that piece of cloth with a sharp knife it likely that the piece of cloth would split True my small arguement about this though is the part where the Greek gods were looking for Tyche since she was split into Beshaba and Tymora. But other wise I don't have much to say on it, except it makes more sense to have the planar changes take place some time in 1372 instead of messing up old realmslore or Planescape lore since the two go hand and hand.
Dargoth 12-31-03, 07:45 PM	Originally posted by Kuje31 True my small arguement about this though is the part where the Greek gods were looking for Tyche since she was split into Beshaba and Tymora. But other wise I don't have much to say on it, except it makes more sense to have the planar changes take place some time in 1372 instead of messing up old realmslore or Planescape lore since the two go hand and hand. If they want a real Catalyst for the Cosmology change then theyve got one Lathanders playing around with his DC spells again according to F&P
Kuje31 12-31-03, 07:55 PM	Originally posted by davethebrave371 Firstly, if there is no other answer, the only one offered by Wizards of the Coast becomes the official answer. Is there any other answer? Can you tell me where one can be found? Please, direct me to the page number or website address where anything other than that is said. As well, one should note that literally everything, in any setting whatsoever, is optional. You never have to use everything, or anything, unless you're the guy writing the stuff, and then only because you made it up, so you're probably quite proud of it. The ToT was completely ignored in some people's campaigns, because people thought it was dumb. I thought it was pretty cool myself. But some people still deny it happened in their games. Why? Because it was optional. It's amazing how that one little sentance, that they added to the end of that question, changes your whole perspective. If they added that to the end of every sentance in the FRCS, you'd be singing a different tune...namely, "STOP SAYING EVERYTHING IS OPTIONAL, WE KNOW!" The groupings, to me, make perfect sense, with the exception of Eilistraee. But neither did the 2e formation make much sense. Entire pantheons were seperated all over the place...so what are you complaining about? Now they're together, which makes sense. 3e = One error. 2e = too many to count. I don't agree with your point on Lolth, because the Demon Web Pits were not always part of the Abyss, so obviously they could easily be said to be different. And, to bring back a previous point, it took me 5 minutes, not an hour. And even an hour isn't that much time. If you decide to have one crappy gaming session and spend your DM prep time you afford yourself over the course of the week SOLELY on planar questions, you'll have an extensive planar explanation, and one session that you have to go free-form spontaneous DM on, followed by quite a few more that will be the richer for your time spent figuring it all out. That's my point there isn't another answer SO again we want a officiall answer that is not a optional answer. Optional answers are not official. The ToT's is not optional since it is firmly established in the living history of the world and it is official, unlike how the new planes came into effect. Again this is by a canon stand point which is where I am debating from. I said it now and I said it yesterday and I'll say it again. We request a OFFICIAL reason WHY the planes changed all of a sudden, besides, "Oh, well they have always been this way but no one knew it." Getting back to my two examples but these are just the tip of the iceberg: Bull! Since there are many planeswalker in FR and they should have known this or how did they get to the planes that don't even exist. Or how did they visit Lolth's realm in the ABYSS when her realm is now the DEMON WEB PITS, which up until the new planes has always been part of the Abyss but is not any longer. Or why did Eilistraee return to Arvandor which at one point was in Arborea. How did that happen! Also the war between the elves and good races took place against the war of the evil races in ARBOREA but there is no Arborea any more. Oh how did Elminster and Storm visit Archeron since there is no Archeron any more. He sure didn't go through the Shadow Plane. Oh why does Lolth's son now live in the Demon Web Pits with his mother even though they hate each other. Why does Eilistraee have such a place there also. Poor girl must really be confused since she can only return to a place where she's exiled from or to a realm where her brother and mother live, even though she hates her family except for Corellon. These and the other examples I listed earlier that you just ignored with the Shadow Plane answer are just the tip of the changes that make no sense and rip apart FR's living history. Yes I can make these things up but WHY should I fix some thing the game designers messed up and broke when there was no need. It makes more sense that Eilistraee lived with the other norse dark elven gods then having her live in a place she was exiled from even if she did it herself. It made more sense that some deities did not live together and the grouping of the deities now makes less sense. Sorry some of us dont have that much time to sit down and detail each and every new plane. Bully for you it took you five minutes, great, but doesn't mean it will take me 5 mins to detail each and every plane.
Kuje31 12-31-03, 07:57 PM	Originally posted by Dargoth If they want a real Catalyst for the Cosmology change then theyve got one Lathanders playing around with his DC spells again according to F&P True and see then I could buy that change instead of retconning it in and ripping apart FR's history. Lathanders new change would have made much more sense and probably would not have had so many of us as annoyed. :)
Ssussunriyh 12-31-03, 08:05 PM	Originally posted by davethebrave371 "...belief shapes the Planes." At last! True words of wisdom! If you don't like what the published material says, just invoke Rule Zero and leave it at that. Don't get so bent out of shape over it.
davethebrave371 12-31-03, 08:07 PM	Originally posted by Kuje31 That's my point there isn't another answer SO again we want a officiall answer that is not a optional answer. Optional answers are not official. The ToT's is not optional since it is firmly established in the living history of the world and it is official, unlike how the new planes came into effect. I said it now and I said it yesterday and I'll say it again. We request a OFFICIAL reason WHY the planes changed all of a sudden, beside, "Oh, well they have always been this way but no one knew it." Getting back to my two examples but these are just the tip of the iceberg: Bull! Since there are many planeswalker in FR and they should have known this or how did they get to the planes that don't even exist. Or how did the visit Lolth's realm in the ABYSS when her realm is now in the DEMON WEB PITS, which up until the new planes has always been part of the Abyss. Or why did Eilistraee return to Arvandor which at one point was in Arborea. How did that Happen! Also the war between the elves and good races took place against the war of the evil races in ARBOREA. Yes I can make these things up but WHY should I fix some thing the game designers messed up and broke when there was no need. It makes more sense that Eilistraee lived with the other norse dark elven gods then having her live in a place she was exiled from even if she did it herself. It made more sense that some deities did not live together and the grouping of the deities now makes less sense. Sorry some of us dont have that much time to sit down and detail each and every new plane. Bully for you it took you five minutes, great, but doesn't mean it will take me 5 mins to detail each and every plane. ...I think I figured out the problem. You can't understand what I type. I guess it must be my problem, but I'll try again. I agree with you already. We need answers, yes, I made that clear in my post. I said that I agree that we need to know how these changes happened. However, what I was saying was that I still didn't (and still don't) understand your reasons for wanting the answer. Your reasons seemed to be (and still seem to be) "I don't want this to be true, so give me a reason why it is." which doesn't make sense. On the Abyss/Demonweb Pit issue: I know planewalkers will want an answer. I tried to make it clear that I, as a planewalker, want an answer. I don't know why you're arguing something we agree on with me. Next. On Arvandor: Same as above, next. Last point, I tried to make it clear that while I did that, you don't have to. I was only mentioning it in response to a point you made, but I stated beforehand that you shouldn't have to do that, and I still stand by that. In other words, you're still not answering what conflicts (other than stuff that isn't official, like this new stuff always having been there), and you're arguing with me about stuff we agree on instead. I'll make it simple: I agree with you, but I still want to know what conflicts, because I still can't see anything conflicting. As it stands right now, the official stance is "Great Wheel until 1372, then this new one." Until they actually say "This is how it always was." then the Great Wheel was always there until recently, which means old products are still fine.
davethebrave371 12-31-03, 08:09 PM	Originally posted by Kuje31 True and see then I could by the changes instead of retconning it in and ripping apart FR's history. This would have make much more sense and probably would not have had so many of us as annoyed. :) I still don't see what has you annoyed, because what they've said so far doesn't rip apart FR's history, because the Great Wheel was always there.
davethebrave371 12-31-03, 08:10 PM	Originally posted by Ssussunriyh At last! True words of wisdom! If you don't like what the published material says, just invoke Rule Zero and leave it at that. Don't get so bent out of shape over it. *chuckles* I know, but when you're arguing with people who don't buy that (even though that is the official stance on Cosmologies in D&D), you have to argue on their terms...which still doesn't get you anywhere sometimes, but I persevere! :)
Kuje31 12-31-03, 08:14 PM	Originally posted by davethebrave371 I still don't see what has you annoyed, because what they've said so far doesn't rip apart FR's history, because the Great Wheel was always there. Ah, see you did not say that before. But that's our point they want us to believe that as soon as 3e came out that the FR planes have ALWAYS been the way they are in the FRCS. No one from Faerun has ever been on the Great Wheel/Ring because FR is a closed cosmology and according to the 3e team every one on Faerun has never heard of the Great Wheel/Ring. There is no explaination why this retconn happened except "It has always been so." So those of you that have the old material for FR and Planescape well are screwed since some of your material is now worthless because these are the planes now and FR has never been part of the the Great Ring/Wheel. From the MotP Faq again: I see in the Manual of the Planes that the Great Wheel cosmology has sixteen Outer Planes. Do these in any way mirror the Faerūnian cosmology, other than some obvious parallels such as Baator (The Nine Hells) and the Abyss? Faerūn has a unique cosmology, although Faerūn's various planes have the traits described in Manual of the Planes. For example, Faerūn's Outer Planes are divinely morphic. Furthermore, the cosmology presented in the FORGOTTEN REALMS Campaign Setting assumes that no other cosmologies exist anywhere else. That is, the book assumes that the Great Wheel does not exist at all. So this means, you can't spelljammer to other worlds outside of Realmspace. You can't visit other worlds unless you go through the unofficial Shadow. You can't visit Sigil, you can't go to places that NPCs and deities have gone to even though they should not have been able to, thus again invalidating parts of the old material. Now do you understand why this invalidates old material? Or if you use the old material then it invalidates part of the new material. As I said it before, where do the Zakhara deities fit in, where do the Maztica deities fit in, where does the Kara-Tur deities fit in, where do the rest of the humanoid deities fit in with all these new planes, since there are no details on where these deities live. Maybe they will be in the Player's Guide but I doubt it.
Dargoth 12-31-03, 08:27 PM	Originally posted by Kuje31 True and see then I could by the changes instead of retconning it in and ripping apart FR's history. This would have make much more sense and probably would not have had so many of us as annoyed. :) So in short you agree with me ie The New Cosmology is not a bad idea its just been poorly explained
Kuje31 12-31-03, 08:31 PM	Originally posted by Dargoth So in short you agree with me ie The New Cosmology is not a bad idea its just been poorly explained Sure I would not have a problem with it if it was given a reason WHY it happened and they fixed most of the errors that it caused. Or if they caused it to happen in 1372 instead of saying well those of you who have the old material are out of luck since according to the history of FR, FR has never been part of the Great Wheel/Ring. Honestly that is a deep insult to those who have supported FR for years. But if it happened in 1372 most of us would have just shruged and said fine. Instead we are being insulted because according to the FRCS the planes in FR have always been the Tree.
davethebrave371 12-31-03, 11:18 PM	Originally posted by Kuje31 Ah, see you did not say that before. But that's our point they want us to believe that as soon as 3e came out that the FR planes have ALWAYS been the way they are in the FRCS. No one from Faerun has ever been on the Great Wheel/Ring because FR is a closed cosmology and according to the 3e team every one on Faerun has never heard of the Great Wheel/Ring. There is no explaination why this retconn happened except "It has always been so." So those of you that have the old material for FR and Planescape well are screwed since some of your material is now worthless because these are the planes now and FR has never been part of the the Great Ring/Wheel. From the MotP Faq again: I see in the Manual of the Planes that the Great Wheel cosmology has sixteen Outer Planes. Do these in any way mirror the Faerūnian cosmology, other than some obvious parallels such as Baator (The Nine Hells) and the Abyss? Faerūn has a unique cosmology, although Faerūn's various planes have the traits described in Manual of the Planes. For example, Faerūn's Outer Planes are divinely morphic. Furthermore, the cosmology presented in the FORGOTTEN REALMS Campaign Setting assumes that no other cosmologies exist anywhere else. That is, the book assumes that the Great Wheel does not exist at all. So this means, you can't spelljammer to other worlds outside of Realmspace. You can't visit other worlds unless you go through the unofficial Shadow. You can't visit Sigil, you can't go to places that NPCs and deities have gone to even though they should not have been able to, thus again invalidating parts of the old material. Now do you understand why this invalidates old material? Or if you use the old material then it invalidates part of the new material. As I said it before, where do the Zakhara deities fit in, where do the Maztica deities fit in, where does the Kara-Tur deities fit in, where do the rest of the humanoid deities fit in with all these new planes, since there are no details on where these deities live. Maybe they will be in the Player's Guide but I doubt it. Where are they asking us to believe that they never were? The FAQ seems to indicate, to me, that it's not there anymore. They didn't say it never was there. So I still don't get why everyone's up in a huff! So, it still doesn't invalidate anything! And, in the new cosmology, they'd get their own planes, just like the other deities. The new cosmology has a lot of uncharted planar territories, so that's where they'd go. Whatever explanation they give, there will be a reason for the Gods being shunted from the Great Wheel into the new cosmology, and that would include the Maztican Gods, etc, etc. There are some things that might require people to do hours of work, I can understand. But this is a fairly simple matter. New Cosmology: Planes = Multitude, possibly infinite in number. Miscellaneous Deity = Not mentioned. Unmentioned Deity = In a plane that would suit their style (i.e. a central american-esque Plane for the Maztican Deities). That's not work, that's just common sense. Planar detail in MotP didn't go beyond a couple pages (at most) for writeups of rather large embodiments of certain alignments. To make what would essentially amount to a demiplane for every single unmentioned God (for instance, do you think they're going to mention the God of the Urds or Raxivort, God of the Xvarts?) would fill up a whole book on it's own. So don't expect too much out of a Player's Guide. Be patient, and in the meantime, use common sense. If you can't exercise free thought outside of the raw material given to you by WotC, maybe you should put down the book and slowly back away. Either that, or do a hack and slash game with no thought to it, in which case you don't need any planar justifications. You can just go from wherever to wherever and fight stuff. No need for that inbetween mumbo-jumbo.
Kuje31 12-31-03, 11:34 PM	Originally posted by davethebrave371 Where are they asking us to believe that they never were? The FAQ seems to indicate, to me, that it's not there anymore. They didn't say it never was there. So I still don't get why everyone's up in a huff! So, it still doesn't invalidate anything! And, in the new cosmology, they'd get their own planes, just like the other deities. The new cosmology has a lot of uncharted planar territories, so that's where they'd go. Whatever explanation they give, there will be a reason for the Gods being shunted from the Great Wheel into the new cosmology, and that would include the Maztican Gods, etc, etc. There are some things that might require people to do hours of work, I can understand. But this is a fairly simple matter. Screw it I give up. Your not listening. If you don't read "Furthermore, the cosmology presented in the FORGOTTEN REALMS Campaign Setting assumes that no other cosmologies exist anywhere else. That is, the book assumes that the Great Wheel does not exist at all." to mean it never did in FR then we are not going to get any where on this. It does invalidate every book for Planescape and it invalidates some of the material in the old FR material. Or if we use the old material then it invidates some of the new material.
Thrudjelmer 01-01-04, 01:09 AM	Exactly. I have been been playing in and running Forgotten Realms adventures for the past 14 years. Many player characters have established history travelling to the plains... many of which do not exist anymore by 3E FR's idiotic "tree" standard. Some of these characters have taken extended visits into the planes and became entrenched in the Planescape setting for awhile before returning home. Now, 3E says there is no Great Wheel... no Sigil... just their new & improved (but broken and useless to many of us) planes. Some of the planes don't make much sense, and WotC didn't give us any explanation for these changes except that they thought it was a good idea that player characters don't need to bother with planar travel that the new cosmology will establish FR with new gamers ...none of which explains in-game what happened to cause these changes. Well, I say screw the new gamers and screw the new cosmology. Yes, it causes me to think up explanations and use my imagination. I don't want to have to waste my time figuring out and fixing all of the game designers' mistakes caused by this unexplained change in the Realms history when I could be spending that time planning out my next adventure. However, if I don't and I'm put on the spot and I have to make up an answer, then I have to write it down so I'll be able to maintain the consistency of my answer... which means that forevermore when dealing with the Realms, I'll be forced to cross-reference everything official with my own freakin' notebook of corrections. Unnecessary waste of my time, and my money! It was a half-arsed effort of a poor decision. Sean K Reynolds is a hack and shouldn't have been given free reign to change the Realms at all. Oh, this is how the planes were always supposed to be?? Yeah, well if Ed Greenwood himself did the 3E rewrite of the Forgotten Realms, I'm sure he would've made the effort to better explain the contradictions caused by the changes... the landmass itself has changed... why? Not because something earth-shattering happened to the world of Toril, but simply because the landmass didn't fit neatly on a poster-size map before. Lame, boring, and utterly craptacular.
WizO_BigSister 01-01-04, 02:31 PM	Right. Once again you have proved that it is impossible to discuss this subject on the boards without it deteriorating into personal insults to both other users and to writers. In short some of you cannot behave like civilised adults. This spoils it for the rest, but I am left with no choice. This thread is hereby closed and this topic is banned for at least a week until certain tempers cool down, and certain users take the time to read the CoC and the explanations of the CoC stuck to the top of this forum.