| Post/Author/DateTime | Post |
|---|---|
| sweetmisery07-23-06, 08:27 AM | Who do you think is it? And if they are to pitt against eachother, who do you think will win? Cuz its not just about the magic they wield but also the items, and their sly. Some of the greatest IMO are Gromph, Sammaster, and Manshoon. |
| Karsus the Mad07-23-06, 09:38 AM | It's me of course :smirk: . But I'm not evil, just insane. :crazy: |
| Dargoth07-23-06, 10:07 AM | Larloch and Daurgothoth "The Creeping Doom" |
| herceg07-23-06, 10:20 AM | Qysar Shoon VII! |
| sweetmisery07-23-06, 11:00 AM | Are you guys picking out of your favorites? lol Anyway who do you think will win? Manshoon vs. Gromph? |
| Fabius Maximus07-23-06, 11:08 AM | It's me of course :smirk: . But I'm not evil, just insane. :crazy: And, if I may add this, dead. :P |
| herceg07-23-06, 11:12 AM | Touché :D EDIT: But that didn't bar him out :) |
| Zanan07-23-06, 04:24 PM | Touché :D EDIT: But that didn't bar him out :) If barring is a measure, then the answer to the topical question would be: the WizOs! For they are easily able to bar "Mighty Lord Karsus" from this board ... :cool: Shadow King Larloch does hold quite a bit of power, doesn't he? Dunno about the ruler of Shade though ... |
| Teh_username07-23-06, 05:03 PM | Are you guys picking out of your favorites? lol Anyway who do you think will win? Manshoon vs. Gromph? Centuries-old drow Archmage versus millenia-old lich archmage + everything else? Yeh, no question; come now, Gromph barely beat Dyrr. (Did they ever stat out the lichdrow, by any chance? I'm guessing it was in one of those "WotSQ" Dragon articles, but I only have the third one....) [Edit: Members of the Baenre House Guard have "persuaded" me to come back and change my answer. "Lo, truly the Archmage of Sorcere would obliterate the weakling human without breaking a sweat, before even lighting Narbondel." ...can I heal my fingers now?] |
| GothicDan07-23-06, 05:06 PM | Larloch. (Level debated: "Around 46th" according to Ed Greenwood, his creator and the creator of the Realms; 32nd according to LoD. But I don't believe LoD over his creator's words, myself; "Ultralich" with powers yet to be fully revealed.) Other close seconds: Rhaungaun of the Twisted Rune (33rd level lich.) Zulkir Ythazz Buvar (?? - But he's a demilich and a former Zulkir of Necromancy; seeing as Szass Tam is 29th and only about 200, I would imagine he'd be 30th+ level) Necroqysar Shoon IV (36th level Necromancer "Demilich".) Telamont Tanthul (35th level Shade.) Aumvor (32nd level Lich.) (EDIT: I've decided to include levels just to show some posters what greatness really means...) |
| Zanan07-23-06, 05:35 PM | Centuries-old drow Archmage versus millenia-old lich archmage + everything else? Yeh, no question; come now, Gromph barely beat Dyrr. (Did they ever stat out the lichdrow, by any chance? I'm guessing it was in one of those "WotSQ" Dragon articles, but I only have the third one....) [Edit: Members of the Baenre House Guard have "persuaded" me to come back and change my answer. "Lo, truly the Archmage of Sorcere would obliterate the weakling human without breaking a sweat, before even lighting Narbondel." ...can I heal my fingers now?] Both, Gromph and Dyrr were indeed statted in the Dragons (302, 312, or 322). Neither would be in the top 10, I'd guess. Obviously, some folk lost quite a number of levbels when they switched editions, while some have never met such a fate. As for fingers and healing ... well, a bit of pain will teach you a lesson or two on answering and all. :evillaugh |
| Dark Wizard07-23-06, 06:55 PM | Necroqysar Shoon IV :devil: |
| GothicDan07-23-06, 07:04 PM | [Edit: Members of the Baenre House Guard have "persuaded" me to come back and change my answer. "Lo, truly the Archmage of Sorcere would obliterate the weakling human without breaking a sweat, before even lighting Narbondel." ...can I heal my fingers now?] Uh.... Manshoon is about 5 levels higher than Gromph, pure arcane caster levels... I really think Manshoon has him beat. But neither one of them are near the top ranks. :) |
| Teh_username07-23-06, 07:25 PM | Uh.... Manshoon is about 5 levels higher than Gromph, pure arcane caster levels... I really think Manshoon has him beat. But neither one of them are near the top ranks. :) Members of House Baenre has persuaded me to stick to my answer in the face of all common sense, mostly because I like having fingers and/or toes. ;) |
| Karsus the Mad07-23-06, 07:35 PM | And, if I may add this, dead. Now when has that has ever affected us from posting? ;) If barring is a measure, then the answer to the topical question would be: the WizOs! For they are easily able to bar "Mighty Lord Karsus" from this board ... :P Different username and a roaming IP means even the WizO's are powerless against the might of the Momentary One! Mwahahahahaha! |
| GothicDan07-23-06, 07:55 PM | Members of House Baenre has persuaded me to stick to my answer in the face of all common sense, mostly because I like having fingers and/or toes. GothicDan, via Gold Elf avatar, coruscates with a vibrant golden brilliance, calling upon an ancient High Magic Ritual - the Glorious Retribution against the Eight-legged Nemesis - and washes away the filthy taint of House Baenre from this topic. Vote as you will, servant of Selvetarm. ;) |
| Issabella07-23-06, 08:29 PM | Laroch is one of the big baddies I would say, Probably the High prince of shade. I forget Ioulaum is evil or not? (elder brain Lich wizard 31/archmage 5/Nehterses arcaist 5 ) if he is evil he takes the cake. |
| GothicDan07-23-06, 09:31 PM | Ioulaum is LN. And I would put Larloch on his level, anyway. Just due to Ed's descriptions. |
| BrianCritchley07-23-06, 11:02 PM | Manshoon may not be the strongest but he's always been one of the more influential in FR it seems. |
| Shinto07-23-06, 11:13 PM | Gromph and Manshoon barely cut it when there are so many "legendary ones" around. Sammaster would be the most powerful out of the three but there really are much more powerful and evil ones out there. Szass Tam Rhaungaun and other members of the Twisted Rune Necroqysar Shoon IV Telamont Tanthul (would be reasonable to assume Epic Spellcasting) Aumver the Undying (Epic Spellcasting) I wouldn't count Larloch since he sits in his castle and doesn't bother the outside world much. |
| GothicDan07-23-06, 11:21 PM | Are we talking personal magical might or influence? If it's influence, then we could count Manshoon about Aumvor, and Telamont wouldn't be all that far on the list, and Sammaster certainly wouldn't. |
| Skeptic07-23-06, 11:25 PM | You forgot that Tomb-tapper master (Demi-lich). |
| Shinto07-24-06, 12:13 AM | Who's the tomb-tapper master? Which sourcebook can he/she be found?? |
| saru07-24-06, 02:10 AM | Kelben. He created the harpers and harpers are one of the most evil guild in FR. They enter someone's house without authorization, without legal authority. They attack students of the Art, steal their items, kill people and forge evidences of so called evilness (but as victim is already dead, he can't defend himself against this false evidences). In Tethyr, he "convinced" elves to leave their ancestral lands so humans can destroy everything and when all forests were destroyed, he helped humans again to steal more lands from elves. And each time, he said it was to prevent war but in fact he want to kick elves out of tethyr. And he's the only evil caster to be a chosen of Mystra. |
| GothicDan07-24-06, 02:11 AM | Khelben is Lawful Neutral. EDIT: Oops. Sarcasm, eh? I'm dumb... |
| Fabius Maximus07-24-06, 05:44 AM | Now when has that has ever affected us from posting? ;) Nah, it only stops you from being part of the competition. |
| sweetmisery07-24-06, 06:47 AM | Kelben. He created the harpers and harpers are one of the most evil guild in FR. They enter someone's house without authorization, without legal authority. They attack students of the Art, steal their items, kill people and forge evidences of so called evilness (but as victim is already dead, he can't defend himself against this false evidences). In Tethyr, he "convinced" elves to leave their ancestral lands so humans can destroy everything and when all forests were destroyed, he helped humans again to steal more lands from elves. And each time, he said it was to prevent war but in fact he want to kick elves out of tethyr. And he's the only evil caster to be a chosen of Mystra. LMAO!!! What next? Drizzt becomes an evil mass murderer? |
| herceg07-24-06, 08:19 AM | He IS an evil mass-murderer. He slaughtered countless orcs and other helpless, innocent creatures. ;) |
| Zanan07-24-06, 08:27 AM | LMAO!!! What next? Drizzt becomes an evil mass murderer? Just ask the mums of the countless ork warriors he slew ... :weep: Calimar Arkennheld of Sshamath might enter the frame, that CE drow male lich Enc27 who venerates Mystra (according to DdUGttUD). With him and even more so Gromph one has to take into consideration that these lads are not just powerful chaps, but can muster quite a bit of more mundane power too. Doesn't shoot Gromph to the top, but shouldn't be forgotten either. |
| Lord Karsus07-24-06, 09:49 AM | If barring is a measure, then the answer to the topical question would be: the WizOs! For they are easily able to bar "Mighty Lord Karsus" from this board ... :cool: -No one can stop Mighty Lord Karsus, his mad third/doppleganger/fragment, and whoever that other third guy is! |
| herceg07-24-06, 09:51 AM | EXCEPT the alignment requirement :) |
| Zanan07-24-06, 09:53 AM | Dear me, there are two of them already! (New spell: "Infestation of Karsi" :D) ... |
| Lord Karsus07-24-06, 09:56 AM | EXCEPT the alignment requirement :) -Alignment is all a matter of perspective. Jedi think that Sith are evil, and Sith think that Jedi are evil. The Forces of Good believe that the Forces of Evil are..well, evil. Forces of Evil believe that the Forces of Good are evil. And, everyone thinks that the Forces of Neutrality are evil, due to the "if you're not with me, your against me" thing... |
| GothicDan07-24-06, 01:39 PM | You're all evil! I am the only Good one around here! |
| Steropes07-24-06, 02:41 PM | You're all evil! I am the only Good one around here! That is *****! You Evil... evil.. Dan! Oh.. And to lawull person Chaotic is Evil!!! |
| GothicDan07-24-06, 02:47 PM | You cannot deny my innate purity. So there. |
| Teh_username07-24-06, 05:48 PM | GothicDan, via Gold Elf avatar, coruscates with a vibrant golden brilliance, calling upon an ancient High Magic Ritual - the Glorious Retribution against the Eight-legged Nemesis - and washes away the filthy taint of House Baenre from this topic. Vote as you will, servant of Selvetarm. ;) Well then, surface-fey, my vote goes to that once-human upstart, Aumvor the Undying. Does he have the most raw magical power? No. But he has dozens of servitor liches (to the point of having an epic-level lich kept alive solely to be an amusement, as seen in LEoF), has split his phylactery to the point that he now has hundreds to work from, and has enough personally-created epic spells, undead and/or living minions, and magic items that he doesn't even have to personally interact with any given threat. A credit to his short-lived race, that one. :P |
| GothicDan07-24-06, 05:50 PM | *Coughs* Larloch has all of that, only times about five. :) He has 60+ 18th+ level liches. :) |
| yarethon07-24-06, 05:51 PM | ahahahahhahaha I'llgo with larloch |
| Gellion07-24-06, 06:19 PM | Hmmm, while not the one with the most spellcatser levels I will say that Gromph is probably one of the coolest spellcasters around. Larloch of course is probably the most powerful in sheer magical might. Halaster is practically invulnerable in Undermountain. The Lichdrow was pretty cool, but he is gone now. :weep: Fistandantilus is probably one of the few spellcasters whose Intelligence score is actually used when he acts...oh wait he is from Dragonlance, nevermind. :) |
| Teh_username07-24-06, 09:28 PM | *Coughs* Larloch has all of that, only times about five. :) He has 60+ 18th+ level liches. :) As far as I can tell, Larloch's powers and resources seem to be roughly as static as Superman's. That is, they vary wildly depending on the writer. :P |
| Lord Karsus07-24-06, 11:13 PM | You're all evil! I am the only Good one around here! -I'm actually just very misunderstood, that's all... |
| Red_Wizard07-25-06, 09:21 AM | Based on what i've read one these Wizards, and based on the topic of the thread, allowing personal power and external (ie: Political power) to factor into choices, i would have to say that for now (barring the release of new cannon material outlining others reserve forces) that Larloch sits right at the top of it all, With good ol' Szass Tam plunking down just behind him. Now before we all go biting my head off (We all know i might tend to favor Red Wizards occasionally ;)), my choice of Szass, is simply that in his home fortress, it describes him as "Virtually Unassailable", and those are only with his own magically created defences. It doesn't include his political influence on matters. Larloch is more obvious ofcourse, as should anyone try to assail him in his home, regardless of level or argument made, they would die....If nto before they reached him, but upon reaching him. |
| Rulebook10107-27-06, 07:47 PM | I think it is Szass Tam I mean I dont have my books on me but I think he always has a Ring of Three Wishes and other Epic items on him. |
| herceg07-28-06, 12:47 AM | Larloch with his menagerie of liches is just plain ridiculous. (Not to say that any lich worth his/her salt wouldn't be someones slave). He is greatly overrated. Add that he's evil comes mostly from "I couldn't care less, except for magic" not from "I want to rule the world", so he's not a real applicant .) Just my two cents. *casts protection from Larloch-addicts* |
| Red_Wizard07-28-06, 08:23 AM | I'm the first person to jump on the band wagon of certain people being over rated *cough* The Simbul *cough*, but i fail to see how Larloch might be. To be honest, he is rarely used, so it makes it kind of hard to over rate something like that. And as for his lichs, i look at them more as insignifigant allies, as opposed to slaves. I think he either helped them attain lichdom, and thus holds something over them....or they simply wish to someday rival his power and stick around out of that (Lets not make this a larlochs true power thread after i post this please ;)) All IMO ofcourse, and don't worry no Larloch Addiction here.....Now a Thayan one, i could probably not dispute ;) |
| Magnathyr07-28-06, 08:38 AM | If you can't use dead wizards, then that ruins the whole thing. Karsus and Sammaster without question. I would prefer it were Sammaster, Karsus is to insane for my liking. Sammaster would have taken over all of Toril if Lathander had not come down himself to act against him. Even then it was not easy to stop the greatest Chosen of Mystra there ever was. :D :D :D |
| Red_Wizard07-28-06, 11:42 AM | Agreed. You know it's bad, when only a god can stop a mortal :P |
| Karsus the Mad07-28-06, 01:11 PM | I would prefer it were Sammaster, Karsus is to insane for my liking. I'm too insane :confused: I'm sorry...I merely tried doing what every archwizard of skill did :smirk: :bigeyes: :bigeyes: :bigeyes: Now. those puppy-dog eyes have to work, who can refuse? |
| GothicDan07-28-06, 03:04 PM | Even then it was not easy to stop the greatest Chosen of Mystra there ever was. You mean, the Simbul? ;) Sammaster was "only" 26th level or so when Lathander's Avatar blew him up. |
| herceg07-28-06, 03:22 PM | Simbul = lol EDIT: "Very funny, Scotty, now beam down my clothes too..." C'mon, you surely never made any mistake :D And, you're definitely right. The Simbul is a very powerful evil spellcaster who slaughers helpless people by the dozen, simply because of nationality (thayans) . |
| GothicDan07-28-06, 03:25 PM | Who's the Symbul? |
| Davidw07-28-06, 06:46 PM | I'm the first person to jump on the band wagon of certain people being over rated *cough* The Simbul *cough*, but i fail to see how Larloch might be. To be honest, he is rarely used, so it makes it kind of hard to over rate something like that. And as for his lichs, i look at them more as insignifigant allies, as opposed to slaves. I think he either helped them attain lichdom, and thus holds something over them....or they simply wish to someday rival his power and stick around out of that (Lets not make this a larlochs true power thread after i post this please ;)) I don't think they have a lot of choice in the matter. According to what I've read, they're magically bound by Larloch to do what he wants. |
| GothicDan07-28-06, 08:09 PM | Indeed. It's a sort of overmind effect; he has complete control over them. |
| Lord_Madrigan07-28-06, 11:49 PM | No Love For Halaster :confused: |
| GothicDan07-29-06, 12:21 AM | Hallaster's more Chaotic Neutral now, I think. :) |
| herceg07-29-06, 02:57 AM | That overmind thingie is why I think the authors went too far with 'im. Are we talking about official FR or Ed's one? If official, Larloch is bad, but no way the oldest/magically most capable. Look at Shoon VII. In half that much years, he earned more levels, etc. If we're talking about Ed's version, then none can beat Larloch, as sad as it is :l (Except maybe the Chosen of Mystra with their "novel"ish silverfire) (BTW, Who is Hallaster? :) ;) And IMHO he's just as Chaotic Evil as he was, he's just not Insane. The two are not the same. Insanity is being CE without the proper power to back it up. But I think he just has enough mojo to do as he wishes. :) ) |
| Magnathyr07-29-06, 05:58 AM | You mean, the Simbul? ;) Sammaster was "only" 26th level or so when Lathander's Avatar blew him up. Even if the Simbul had her current levels when she faced Sammaster, she would have never had a chance. I mean levels aren't everything or Sammaster could not have pulled of what he did. Alone, Simbul would have cried like the little *witch* she is before Sammaster flayed her soul. :eek: ;) :D :P |
| sweetmisery07-29-06, 07:12 AM | I mean levels aren't everything Well said... |
| GothicDan07-29-06, 03:43 PM | Well, then what IS everything? We have all of the stats of Sammaster at the time. The Simbul can blow up Thay, all of it, if she wants to. If Sammaster could have done that, he could have wiped out the army that came after him all by himself. |
| Derren S.07-29-06, 03:52 PM | Simbul blowing up whole Thay? In novels where evil is always stupid and good always wins yes, but in D&D, the game, no. There are far to many red wizards (even epic ones) as that she could do that. |
| GothicDan07-29-06, 03:54 PM | TSR made him write the villains as stupid evil. (And, last time I noticed, good has triumphed in novels under WotC, too, regardless of author.) But you've been told this before, and it doesn't make a difference. I'm not going to bang my head into a wall here. And, novels aside, how many other Red Wizards have the Epic Spellcasting feat that we know of? |
| Derren S.07-29-06, 04:01 PM | At least 1. The example epic red wizard in the Epic Level Handbook. But as there is a published class for epic red wizards you can be sure that there are more of them. |
| GothicDan07-29-06, 04:08 PM | At least 1. The example epic red wizard in the Epic Level Handbook. Does it say that he lives in Faerun? But as there is a published class for epic red wizards you can be sure that there are more of them. No, you can be sure that the Red Wizard is a 10 level PrC with consistent enough bonuses and abilities to expand to 11th+ level. EVERY PrC that meets these requirements can have an Epic level progression. It's a purely mechanical thing, not something that says there HAS to be someone that high a level. Otherwise, since you seem to only care about what's written in D&D sourcebooks, where does it SPECIFICALLY say that any Epic PrC is proof that there are examples of them in every given world? |
| Derren S.07-29-06, 05:08 PM | Does it say that he lives in Faerun? According to the headline yes. "Epic NPCs of Faerun" I know you worship everything Ed says but his influence ends when the game material says something different. And acording to the game material Larloch is lvl 32, and Szazz Tam has 10 more spellcasting levels then the Simbul and therefor is a serious threat to her even with her Epic Spellcasting ability (Especially with the Red Wizard circle magic). Add the other zulkiers and the rest of the red wizards and you have a good reason why Simbul can't blow up Thay. And don't forget that wizards are so much more flexible and therefor powerfull then sorcerers... |
| BrianCritchley07-29-06, 07:26 PM | according to her backstory the simbul was gonna destroy thay but Mystra stopped her, explained why it was abd and then made her a chosen |
| GothicDan07-29-06, 08:48 PM | Derren doesn't care much for story. |
| Derren S.07-30-06, 01:35 AM | If the story contradicts the rules then you are right. FR is, first and foremost, a gaming world and not a novel world. That means written stats > what one of the dozend novel authors (and that include Ed) said. |
| GothicDan07-30-06, 02:18 AM | How do you make that judgment call when it was created before the D&D game ever applied to it, for novels and stories, and throughout it's entire printing, novels have been taken as canon and still are to this day? |
| Magnathyr07-30-06, 03:23 AM | All of the chosen of mystra were rallied together with, gods know how many, other forces when they faced Sammaster. Simbil was included among that group. If Lathander had not intervened,I assure you that we would not be discussing any of the Seven Sisters, Khelben, or Eliminster because they would most likely be the ones who were "dead" instead of Sammaster. After reading the 2E "Cult of the Dragon" supplement, ANYONE would be hard pressed to convince me otherwise. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that the Simbil is weak or that I dislike her, but if it came to a face-off between her and Sammaster, I honestly don't believe there's even a question there. IMO :D |
| Derren S.07-30-06, 09:41 AM | I can make this judgment call by beeing on a rpg board. If you want to discuss what the dozend of authors for teh FR have fabricated then go to Candlekeep. Here on this board I discuss game stats and not the power fantasies a novel writer had. Yes FR was a novel world first but when Ed signed the contract the FR became a game world and that means game stats count. |
| herceg07-30-06, 10:12 AM | You are my hero ! :) |
| Bonzai07-30-06, 12:56 PM | Well, then what IS everything? We have all of the stats of Sammaster at the time. The Simbul can blow up Thay, all of it, if she wants to. If Sammaster could have done that, he could have wiped out the army that came after him all by himself. Actually, he pretty much did. Thats when Lathander came down to even things up. There were no chosen in that battle, but he went against 3 at once when he died the first time. He had gained levels after that, and probably more since. Not to mention lich levels after the Lathander incident. I don't know if he was ever stated for the Year of the Rogue Dragon series, but I would have placed him around lvl 31 or 32 + lich levels. As for power and influence, no one tends to think about the big picture of the cult. Yes, there are small cells all over. Individual cells aren't huge threats, but thats why they slip under the radar. Now you have some one like Samaster who can unite them all, and you have an army with a foot hold in practically every nation. Samaster can create amulets of Draconic might. They let him control any and every Dracolich, and many evil dragons to boot. Think about that for a moment. We recently saw what a rage of dragons can do. Now how about a rage of Dracoliches? Also keep in mind, the cult is intergal in making the dracoliches. They know every phylactery, and every lair of every dracolich. After the last Rage, there are a lot of dead dragon corpses around. I am sure more than one cult cell has taken advantage of that to reawaken the fallen Sacred ones. We could be seeing Shangrilar (or whatever the first ones name was) returning, as well as many of the other nameless ones that have fallen over the years. It all gets kind of scary when you think about it. Samaster could have unleashed a scorched earth campaign that brings his prophecy to fruition. "And naught shall be left but shattered thrones, and dead dragons shall rule the world entire...." |
| sweetmisery07-30-06, 01:14 PM | As for power and influence, no one tends to think about the big picture of the cult. Yes, there are small cells all over. Individual cells aren't huge threats, but thats why they slip under the radar. Now you have some one like Samaster who can unite them all, and you have an army with a foot hold in practically every nation. Samaster can create amulets of Draconic might. They let him control any and every Dracolich, and many evil dragons to boot. Think about that for a moment. We recently saw what a rage of dragons can do. Now how about a rage of Dracoliches? Also keep in mind, the cult is intergal in making the dracoliches. They know every phylactery, and every lair of every dracolich. After the last Rage, there are a lot of dead dragon corpses around. I am sure more than one cult cell has taken advantage of that to reawaken the fallen Sacred ones. We could be seeing Shangrilar (or whatever the first ones name was) returning, as well as many of the other nameless ones that have fallen over the years. It all gets kind of scary when you think about it. Samaster could have unleashed a scorched earth campaign that brings his prophecy to fruition. "And naught shall be left but shattered thrones, and dead dragons shall rule the world entire...." True. And when the time comes, do you think even the evil societies will team up to stop Sammaster and his cult? Or will they just hide in their nations/citadels? Also, is the underworld affected with the dragons' raging and all? Or do all dragons go to the surface instead? |
| Red_Wizard07-30-06, 02:14 PM | In all honesty GD, you really need to pick one thing or the other to cry Canon on. You wanna say the books are canon fine, but don't try to prove points based on stats aswell. I mean fact, simbul has the epic spell casting feat...So? Whoopty doo. Don't ask me again please if i know what it is, i am well aware of what it does. I am also well aware that she poseses no epic spells in her stats. I am also aware, that her spell aresenal has next to no offensive spells in it that matter. However if you want to argue novels as canon, she was nearly killed by a sword while trying to arogantly crush a room full of Red Wizards. Also, perhaps she does have enough power to attack Thay and win out over it all (novel wise only) but that is only if she attacks as she did in hell, and that is with a NON CANON spell. When you read its description in the book, it clearly can only be isaac's greater missle swarm from NWN. Which is by no means canon, and that spell has never been a published one. Also, with only a meager 20 sorcerer levels to her name, she is never in Stat form, going to take out Szass Tam, who is surrounded by magic galore, not to mention apprentices that in a single casting of circle magic, jack Szass up to caster levels the Simbul could only Dream of. So not to be mean, but like i said, argue only one or the other please, cause Stat wise the Simbul has no hope of destroying Thay, and novel wise it is debatable. p.s. Elminster is charged with Thay's defence against the Simbul, so should she even try he is there to contend with aswell (So saith the writing of Ed ;)) |
| GothicDan07-30-06, 03:59 PM | In all honesty GD, you really need to pick one thing or the other to cry Canon on. You wanna say the books are canon fine, but don't try to prove points based on stats aswell. That's not how real world debates work. You use every bit of information that backs up your point of view. Other than that, I'm not all into the crunchy mechanics of the game. I'll just let the Simbul (the poster) come in and tell you guys how, using the stats as printed, the Simbul could whoop Sammaster across the floor. :) I think the Simbul's current levels are idiotic and should be changed to reflect the power she's had for 20+ years - that is, preferrably, all Wizard/Archmage levels, or secondary, all Sorcerer/Archmage levels. |
| GothicDan07-30-06, 04:01 PM | I can make this judgment call by beeing on a rpg board. If you want to discuss what the dozend of authors for teh FR have fabricated then go to Candlekeep. Here on this board I discuss game stats and not the power fantasies a novel writer had. So by game stats you mean the power fantasies that we as players instead have. Yes FR was a novel world first but when Ed signed the contract the FR became a game world and that means game stats count. And now it is a NOVEL AND RPG world. What is so hard for you to understand about that? WotC says that novels are canon, too. |
| Red_Wizard07-30-06, 04:33 PM | I understand that in a normal debate all things might be used, but in this situation it will always be hard to argue something using both sources. Simply there are to many things that favour the simbul, and hurt her in both novel and stat forms. So by argueing one to the best of your abilities there is no chance of simalar sources being used against you to re-argue what you want to defend, from the aspect of making you (or anyone else) look dumb by pointing out a flaw maybe even from the same novel your using to defend something. It's the same issue that arises with Larloch. There needs to be one finalized stat block done up for all characters, and from that Books are written. And while personally i would have stated both differently, i'm not gonna sit here and say "the Simbuls stats don't reflect her true power" and then turn around and say "The Red Wizards can't win cause she is statted as having Epic Spell Casting". IMO it ruins all credibility someone might have by only using the positive sides of something, and never pointing out the negitives. For example, while the Simbul has one set stat block, her power varies greatly between books, and sometimes even from chapter to chapter. It makes it hard to stat up fairly someone like that ;) :) |
| GothicDan07-30-06, 05:08 PM | The more sources that back you up, the more credible your argument. It's as simple as that. :) |
| yarethon07-30-06, 05:44 PM | I can make this judgment call by beeing on a rpg board. If you want to discuss what the dozend of authors for teh FR have fabricated then go to Candlekeep. Here on this board I discuss game stats and not the power fantasies a novel writer had. Oh that is a pitty indeed stats are not a fun stuff to discuss, specially because they are not supposed to be rigid... and based on that... there is not much interesting to talk about it Yes FR was a novel world first but when Ed signed the contract the FR became a game world and that means game stats count. I agree that it counts, but more like reference and well if you ask me.... using ed's stuff is the best reference of all If it wasn't... I can't imagine why the designers would ask his opinions on some stuff For example, while the Simbul has one set stat block, her power varies greatly between books, and sometimes even from chapter to chapter. It makes it hard to stat up fairly someone like that I agree because of it, stats make a poor reference, to capture her actual power... in novels she is much more powerful than in stat blocks...it i easy to "sense " this. That said I don'y know if she could take on thay alone, but is very unreasonable if you ask me. To destroy their armies is one thing... destroying szass is another. About larloch.... I don't like ed' version of him.. because it makes him almost invincible, but LoD had him on really low power level if you also ask me... |
| Lord Karsus07-30-06, 06:39 PM | I can make this judgment call by beeing on a rpg board. If you want to discuss what the dozend of authors for teh FR have fabricated then go to Candlekeep. Here on this board I discuss game stats and not the power fantasies a novel writer had. Yes FR was a novel world first but when Ed signed the contract the FR became a game world and that means game stats count. -At least once a week, someone on these boards makes me stop, sit for a moment, and wonder what they are thinking. Here is this weeks... "...want to discuss what the dozend of authors for teh FR have fabricated..." :uh-huh: |
| GothicDan07-30-06, 06:43 PM | About larloch.... I don't like ed' version of him.. because it makes him almost invincible, but LoD had him on really low power level if you also ask me... Yup. Ed said as much - he is there to humble the players. To show them that, no matter what, there's always someone bigger and badder out there. I wish 3E did this more often. 3E right now is very ME ME ME-centric. |
| Karsus the Mad07-30-06, 07:04 PM | I wish 3E did this more often. 3E right now is very ME ME ME-centric. Now, before anyone replies (don't, because frankly, you're reply will be rendered moot with me....deem that as arrogant, I truly couldn't care less, given the course of this thread), this reply is to my fav member Dan, whom I have a weird love/hate queer relationship with.... 3e has actually made those types even worse, by giving them actual stats. As if such magnificent npc's were static blowup dolls to be bought for a few euro. |
| GothicDan07-30-06, 07:05 PM | I love/hate you, Karsus! *Kiss/hit* |
| Faraer07-30-06, 07:29 PM | That means written stats > what one of the dozend novel authors (and that include Ed) said.For you, but not for the people who write for the Realms. |
| yarethon07-30-06, 08:33 PM | Yup. Ed said as much - he is there to humble the players. To show them that, no matter what, there's always someone bigger and badder out there. I know that and i can recognize that he has a useful fuinctuon as stated, but sometimes he gives just the impression that he can't be beaten.. not beause he is a bas ass wizard... but because .. er... ed just don't want it ehheh ... for me, he is the number one spellcasting bad guy out there |
| WizO_Shadow07-30-06, 11:06 PM | This is the only time I'm going to say this. Keep it non-personal and the thread will stay open. Otherwise I'm locking this thing down faster than Sith being able to push his kill button. WizO_Shadow |
| Lord Karsus07-30-06, 11:26 PM | Now, before anyone replies (don't, because frankly, you're reply will be rendered moot with me....deem that as arrogant, I truly couldn't care less, given the course of this thread), this reply is to my fav member Dan, whom I have a weird love/hate queer relationship with.... -And, of course, since I am you, and you are me, and we are all together, I am somehow involved in this. The things I get myself caught up in... :rolleyes: |
| Lord Karsus07-30-06, 11:28 PM | This is the only time I'm going to say this. Keep it non-personal and the thread will stay open. Otherwise I'm locking this thing down faster than Sith being able to push his kill button. WizO_Shadow -I, for one, think that we are all acting with great restraint and civility. |
| Red_Wizard07-30-06, 11:50 PM | Now, before anyone replies (don't, because frankly, you're reply will be rendered moot with me....deem that as arrogant, I truly couldn't care less, given the course of this thread), this reply is to my fav member Dan, whom I have a weird love/hate queer relationship with.... 3e has actually made those types even worse, by giving them actual stats. As if such magnificent npc's were static blowup dolls to be bought for a few euro. I agree that this is going very Civil all things considered....But i am curious as to why above post was made. In all honesty, if it was for Dan, and Dan alone, and you clearly don't want it being read, or responded to by others, then why post it here??? Frankly (and render this moot all you want) you could have accomplished this same post via PM, and not wasted the board space with such an obviously unessisarily rude statement. Now as for real topic posting, what i think needs to be done for stats, is to have the authors sit down with the source book guys, and haggle back and forth on what the desired stats should be. In the end, either both people will be happy, or both won't be, but they'll both be in agreement. Thus, threads getting high jacked like this, or new threads started on the topic will be moot, and closed or cleaned up ASAP. There'll be no more "but Ed said this" or "LoD said that". It will be one final stat that neither creator, reader, or casual poster can argue with. |
| GothicDan07-30-06, 11:54 PM | It was more common under 2E for authors and sourcebook designers to sit down and chat. As I understand it now, there isn't even a single head designer at WotC anymore for FR. |
| Lord Karsus07-30-06, 11:58 PM | It was more common under 2E for authors and sourcebook designers to sit down and chat. As I understand it now, there isn't even a single head designer at WotC anymore for FR. -As it should be. As it should be. |
| GothicDan07-31-06, 12:12 AM | Yep. That was one of Steven Schend's major jobs for awhile. He's awesome. |
| Lord Karsus07-31-06, 12:26 AM | Yep. That was one of Steven Schend's major jobs for awhile. He's awesome. -He is awesome. The other day, at Candlekeep, I asked him the definitions of a couple of Elven words. He translated those, plus gave me a whole bunch more. What a guy! |
| Magnathyr07-31-06, 02:49 AM | I must agree with GD that FR is both a novel and gaming world. You can't rely on stat material alone, as some NPC's are way underpowered when it comes to their given stats. Also you can not rely on the fantastical imaginations of authors who make some NPC's invincible. In many cases you simply have to find a middle ground between what is written in literary text and what is published as game stats. I must say that myself and GD will not agree as far as the Simbil vs. Sammaster debate is concerned, he is very much entitled to his opinion and I can not fault that, whether I agree with it or not. If I am the DM and GD were playing in my game then I would be correct, but if roles were reversed then GD would be correct. The topic of this thread asked for my opinion to the question and I aswered it and stick to that answer. Under hypothetical situations that might change (say Haluraa, Thay and Shadovar ally themselves and go on the offensive), then I certainly might have to reconcider. ;) |
| herceg07-31-06, 04:13 AM | You can't rely on stat material alone, as some NPC's are way underpowered when it comes to their given stats. Also you can not rely on the fantastical imaginations of authors who make some NPC's invincible. In many cases you simply have to find a middle ground between what is written in literary text and what is published as game stats. I have only one problem with this. The Simbul with 20 sorcerer, 2 archmage and 10 wizards level is only "underpowered" compared to those same "fantastical imaginations". How can anyone say a 32nd level character with a rare template to be underpowered is beyond me :) C'mon guys, even in FR, above 25 levels you ARE _quite_ powerful. :) |
| GothicDan07-31-06, 04:27 AM | Because it's underpowered compared to 15 years of both stats and stories. She was, statistically, in 2E, a 30th level Wizard. No multi-classing or dual-classing. |
| herceg07-31-06, 04:36 AM | EXCEPT that in 2ed she actually got spell slots for wizard level 21-30, and now she wouldn't. She has 20 sorcerer spellcasting + archmage abilities and 10 level wizardry instead, and the capabilities of an 32nd level epic spellcaster. The only drawback is her caster level (22 instead of 30). Again, I don't see how could she be "underpowered". (Excluding the fact that wizards > sorcerers. The whole problem rose with the invention of the sorcerer class.). EDIT: BTW, the only book that described the Simbul symphatic to me was some old 1ed FR (can't remember, Hall of heroes maybe), it said she is mysterious, secretive, playing from the shadows, waiting and listening/watching etc. Not this hotheaded, fly-in-the-face, blast-them-all kind of woman she is now. That was a Simbul I could like. That was a _wizard-like_ Simbul. The one described in the newer books is an overconfident, self-righteous, arrogant witch. |
| Magnathyr07-31-06, 04:52 AM | I have only one problem with this. The Simbul with 20 sorcerer, 2 archmage and 10 wizards level is only "underpowered" compared to those same "fantastical imaginations". How can anyone say a 32nd level character with a rare template to be underpowered is beyond me :) C'mon guys, even in FR, above 25 levels you ARE _quite_ powerful. :) Did I mention ANY particular NPC(s) in the section you quoted? No I did not. The reason I didn't is because it is up to each DM/person to decide whether or not any given stats are appropriate, underpowered or in some cases even overpowered, for a particular NPC. Personally I don't agree with the Classes/levels given for Simbil and have modified that for my campaigns in FR, which is what I suggest to anyone that feels that something isn't quite right. Though her classes are slightly different in my campaign, her total level is close at 36 levels. |
| herceg07-31-06, 05:03 AM | Did I mention ANY particular NPC(s) in the section you quoted? No I did not. Did I mention that you did? :) No I did not :) It was an example (because we were talking about her for quite som time). I could generalize it for you to enhance understanding: The stats given to NPCs seem, no, feel "underpowered" only when compared to those same "fantastical imaginations". Now, is it better? :) IMHO, the majority of statted FR NPCs are quite powerful compared to NPCs from other settings, and also quite powerful compared to typical PCs. I don't feel any urge to "up" them anywhere. If anybody likes higher levels more, use them. Just don't say they aren't powerful yet. They are. Sorry, being sarcastic is what I am. It wasn't meant for you specifically. |
| Magnathyr07-31-06, 05:16 AM | FR is meant to be largely higher leveled setting as a whole. Each campaign setting is different; I mean look at the NPC levels in the Eberron CS.... after a few months of gaming, PC's there could walk up and boldly slap a national ruler and not have much to worry about. Most of the NPC there have maybe 3 levels in an adventuring class, and a few levels of an NPC class. Try that in FR and you'll find yourself in a world of hurt. :D |
| herceg07-31-06, 05:32 AM | Yup :) But back on topic. I would define "greatest evil mage" as the one that is closest to the goal of all evil masterminds: world-domination. This point of view includes sheer personal might, resources, organizations, etc. In that perspective, the most dangerous/greatest evil mages are: Shoon, Manshoon (notice something similar? ;) ), and Szass Tam, not necessarily in that order. They have personal power (high levels, Shoon being the strongest here), resources (Cowled wizards, Zhentarim, Red Wizards, respectively - I would vote for Szass Tam on this), guile (obviously Manshoon) and they are as vile as they come (qysar Shoon winning this one), out to conquer Faerun and stuff. [Sidenote about the Zhentarim: don't be fooled by Fzoul's self- aggrandizement :) Who do you think the secular wizards of the Black Network really answer to? The Zealot or the Master? :)] The others (mostly liches): Larloch - he's not onto world-conquering, so he's mostly out. Twisted Rune - those whose primary entertainment is puppetry (It is only for entertainment) I do not count as worth mages. They are very influental and dangerous in Calimshan (and maybe bordering states), but that's it. They have their resources, power, organization, but they lack the goal. Draconic mages: they are powerful in themselves, but usually lack the backing of a powerful organization. Sammaster: Yep, he could qualify, if he's not a demipower yet. Halaster: If he's sane again, then he's a good (*cough* evil *cough*) aspirant :) But he lacks the evil organization to control (though he has his monsters :D) |
| Magnathyr07-31-06, 06:45 AM | Yup :) But back on topic. I would define "greatest evil mage" as the one that is closest to the goal of all evil masterminds: world-domination. This point of view includes sheer personal might, resources, organizations, etc. to this is refer to the below comment on Sammaster wiping out the entire army that came after him... Actually, he pretty much did. Thats when Lathander came down to even things up. There were no chosen in that battle, but he went against 3 at once when he died the first time. He had gained levels after that, and probably more since. Not to mention lich levels after the Lathander incident. I don't know if he was ever stated for the Year of the Rogue Dragon series, but I would have placed him around lvl 31 or 32 + lich levels. As for power and influence, no one tends to think about the big picture of the cult. Yes, there are small cells all over. Individual cells aren't huge threats, but thats why they slip under the radar. Now you have some one like Samaster who can unite them all, and you have an army with a foot hold in practically every nation. Samaster can create amulets of Draconic might. They let him control any and every Dracolich, and many evil dragons to boot. Think about that for a moment. We recently saw what a rage of dragons can do. Now how about a rage of Dracoliches? Also keep in mind, the cult is intergal in making the dracoliches. They know every phylactery, and every lair of every dracolich. After the last Rage, there are a lot of dead dragon corpses around. I am sure more than one cult cell has taken advantage of that to reawaken the fallen Sacred ones. We could be seeing Shangrilar (or whatever the first ones name was) returning, as well as many of the other nameless ones that have fallen over the years. It all gets kind of scary when you think about it. Samaster could have unleashed a scorched earth campaign that brings his prophecy to fruition. Hence the reason for my choice. :D |
| herceg07-31-06, 07:22 AM | But then again, isn't he some kind of demipower now? (Was it in the Cult of the Dragon? Or somewhere else?). If yes, he's not really valid. If not, is he alive/undead? If not, see above. If he's neither demi nor dead, then he qualifies, yes, but I tend to place intelligent evil over mad evil, hence my list. But who can say? :) After all said and done, I still am with Qysar Shoon VII, however neglected. The once-ruler of the greatest empire ever, the once-demilich, "reborn" in an absolutely innocent female body... huh. He's like... devil himself :) No concience, no remorse, no inhibition, etc. He has the greatest potential. At least in MY FR :) (Except, of course, PCs - not that they are evil mages :D) |
| sweetmisery07-31-06, 08:53 AM | But then again, isn't he some kind of demipower now? (Was it in the Cult of the Dragon? Or somewhere else?). If yes, he's not really valid. If not, is he alive/undead? If not, see above. If he's neither demi nor dead, then he qualifies, yes, but I tend to place intelligent evil over mad evil, hence my list. But who can say? :) Sammaster is a lich now. He was one of the Chosen of Mystra before, but was stripped of that. |
| Red_Wizard07-31-06, 09:13 AM | Last time i checked, Sammaster is still MIA. After he was beaten the final time, his phylactory was never found. Some say he was destroyed, others say he's trapped...It is mentioned he is a Demi Lich aswell....I don't think there is a 3E update on him yet though. |
| Bonzai07-31-06, 10:46 AM | Minor spoiler allert, but for an update on Samasters activities, read The Rage, The Rite, and The Ruin. As for his final state.... things look definatly final, but then again, this is Samaster, and who knows what the authors will cook up. |
| Lord Karsus08-01-06, 12:43 AM | Minor spoiler allert, but for an update on Samasters activities, read The Rage, The Rite, and The Ruin. As for his final state.... things look definatly final, but then again, this is Samaster, and who knows what the authors will cook up. -Yep. Looked like the end of Samaster to me... |
| Magnathyr08-01-06, 01:51 AM | Sammaster is a lich now. He was one of the Chosen of Mystra before, but was stripped of that. Where did you read that? I've never seen anything that said he was stripped of his Chosen status. He was still a chosen when Lathander came after him according to all the stuff I've read. :confused: Last time i checked, Sammaster is still MIA. After he was beaten the final time, his phylactory was never found. Some say he was destroyed, others say he's trapped...It is mentioned he is a Demi Lich aswell....I don't think there is a 3E update on him yet though. Correct. Nobody knows. Usually when they kill someone off, they don't leave any question about it, and they did here. This is one powerful wizard that is very proficient in the necromantic arts, and we all know how hard it can be to bring someone like that to their final end. :D Minor spoiler allert, but for an update on Samasters activities, read The Rage, The Rite, and The Ruin. As for his final state.... things look definatly final, but then again, this is Samaster, and who knows what the authors will cook up. Unfortunately I have not had the chance to purchase and read those yet. A friend of mine said that it seemed that Sammaster may be resurfacing when he was reading them. If he lived closer, I'd borrow them to read. :weep: but I tend to place intelligent evil over mad evil Surely you don't think Sammaster unintelligent. :eek: :D |
| Lord Karsus08-01-06, 01:59 AM | Where did you read that? I've never seen anything that said he was stripped of his Chosen status. He was still a chosen when Lathander came after him according to all the stuff I've read. :confused: -Cult of the Dragon, Pgs. 15-16 When the ferocious energies ceased their coruscations across the field of battle, Sammaster had fallen. Before any of the three could do more than comfort one another and tend to Alustriel's wounds, Azuth appeared before them as a flaming blue hand. The hand spoke, praising the Chosen both for their bravery and their restraint, and then turned to the supine form of Sammaster. Invoking the name of Our Lady of Mysteries, the hand gestured over Sammaster, and a silver star fell from the sky to hang above his beaten body. Great gouts of silverfire then flowed out from his wounds like milk from a broken vessel and were absorbed by the star, removing the Goddess's favor from his form. |
| herceg08-01-06, 02:19 AM | I do not say that Sammaster is unintelligent, I'm saying he's mad. He's brain snapped earlier (dead dragons an' stuff), so even if he's _very_ intelligent and calculating, he is prone to actions that ruin everything he had planned. On the contrary, Shoon, Szass Tam and Manshoon are the most calculating, scheming evil bastards out there (Ok, the twisted rune is worse in scheming, but they do nothing "effectively", just amusing themselves with directing the life of the mortals of one realm) But you are probably right, he's right there with those three on the top of the list. |