Greyhawk material in Forgotten Realms [Archive] - Wizards Community

Greyhawk material in Forgotten Realms [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Delglath
11-06-03, 09:50 AM Ok, let me first just state that this is NOT a troll. Please read on to clarify. Secondly, at the end of the day, even though I'm a dyed-in-the-wool, hard-nosed, unforgiving Greyhawk fan and FR-loather, I give a rats dirty behind whether material is 'stolen' from GH or not. Obviously, the matter is a lot more complex and I DO have feelings about it, it's just that after all is said and done, it matters little to me whether or not drow were taken from GH and used in FR.

And, anyway, plaigiarism is a form of compliment :)

Now, on to the point of this thread...

Basically I'd like to encourage people to read and explore the Greyhawk material that IS still published. Because, at the end of the day, whether Greyhawk specific or not, a concept or detailed write-up is only really as specific as the names used in it. Therefore, though it may have the Greyhawk logo over the top, nothing is stopping you, as a DM or player, using the material in your FR game.

And let's be realistic here, regardless of the source, like someone else said in another related thread in the GH forum, good material is good material, and bad material is bad material, who wrote it matters little.

So, what material am I talking about? There is still Greyhawk material being published I hear you cry in amazement? Why yes, folks, there is!

It's called the Living Greyhawk Journal, published in your friendly staple of D&D, Dungeon magazine!

Now let's look at some of the articles that have been published recently in the LGJ (for a detailed listing, one can venture over to here: LGJ Index (http://www.canonfire.com/htmlnew//modules.php?name=Content&pa=showpage&pid=3)).

Paladins of Greyhawk: Holy Warriors of the Flanaess
By Gary Holian
Details the holy warriors of Mayaheine, Murlynd, Pelor, Rao and St. Cuthbert.

Paladins of Greyhawk: Holy Warriors of the Flanaess; part 2
By Gary Holian
Details the holy warriors of Al'Akbar, Azor'Alq, Heironeous, Hextor, Pholtus, and Trithereon.

Now, I know what you're thinking, these are all Greyhawk gods, right? Well, yes, they are... however, at the same time, it's not like Greyhawk and Forgotten Realms are so dissimilar when it comes to deities, so all you really have to do is find a god that is similar, and replace the name, do a little GH excising/FR replacing, and biz-bang-boom, you've got yourself a write-up for a paladinic order for your game!

Now... let me think a bit... hmm...

Mayaheine = Red Knight (sortof)
St. Cuthbert = Tyr (sortof)
Heironeous = Torm
Hextor = Bane
Trithereon = Lliira (sortof)

These associations may not be perfect and I don't mean them to be. My point isn't that GH is transferable directly to FR or that they're somehow transposable, my point is that the LGJ contains a lot of decent articles and can by used as a reference by anyone who plays fantasy RPG's for inspiration, concepts, and maybe even material, statistics, NPC's, PrC's and whatnot.

Most people gloss over it simply because it has the Living or the Greyhawk stamp on it. I'm just saying that you should give it a chance, you never know what surprises lie within.
Faraer
11-06-03, 10:17 AM The Greyhawk-Realms antipathy consists largely of a few vocal Greyhawk fans who loudly voice bitterness against what they falsely perceive as being the Realms. (Realms fans, though probably on average less knowledgable about Greyhawk simply because they're on average younger, tend not to reciprocate the hostility.) It's both an obvious waste of time and profoundly irrational. Ed Greenwood loves the World of Greyhawk; Gary Gygax's only comments on the Realms have been appreciation for Ed's Dragon articles, and obviously no professional author indulges in absurd 'hatred' for either fictional setting.

Far more fruitful than trumped-up rivalries or quests for origin is to compare the way each world has made use of many of the same sources in mid-20th-century heroic fantasy, from Clark Ashton Smith to Michael Moorcock to Jack Vance to Roger Zelazny. There are similarities and differences of interpretation and sensibility. Both aesthetics have little to do with certain developments of the 80s and 90s, and they share a fondness for the picaresque, the labyrinthine, the melodramatic, and for spontaneous creation in play.

My own liking in the World of Greyhawk is for Gary Gygax's own material, from the original Greyhawk set to the Gord the Rogue novels to the voluminous works he's now writing with d20 publishers. My own experience of the Living Greyhawk Journal material is that though well meant and often well crafted, it often lacks for energy and inspiration. But there's no doubt that one's appreciation of the Realms can be increased by making use of Greyhawk material and appreciating its history and context.

Delglath: Accusing Ed Greenwood of plagiarism (referring to material intended to be used in home campaign settings, not just the World of Greyhawk which was unpublished at the time) is libel. This is a serious matter than can affect people's careers, not something for messageboard banter.
Delglath
11-06-03, 12:53 PM Originally posted by Faraer
Delglath: Accusing Ed Greenwood of plagiarism (referring to material intended to be used in home campaign settings, not just the World of Greyhawk which was unpublished at the time) is libel. This is a serious matter than can affect people's careers, not something for messageboard banter.
It was a joke you... bleh, why do I bother? Go, take everything seriously in the world and paint everyone in a negative light, for it is you who will suffer, suffer from a lack of joy that frivolity gives.

My point still stands. There are many organizations and prestige classes and feats and fluff that appear in the LGJ that can be used with little effort on the part of the DM or simply as inspiration for ones game. I merely wish to point that out to those who tend to dismiss the LGJ simply because it has a Greyhawk logo on it.
Herr Doktor
11-06-03, 03:14 PM I've got to say that part of the attraction any setting has for me is how those who play and DM in it act.

As representatives of the campaign setting you're "defending", I've got to say that I've no wish to ever use anything from the setting nor ever visit the Greyhawk boards (though I have and continue to check out the LGJ, the drow mimes and artists in the one article were fun). I am tempted to add you to my ignore list as well, mister troll lord, sir. If you can't keep your ridiculous ego in check perhaps you should go pick on your younger siblings or something and show some respect to other board users.

What you continue to do borders harassment... Go ahead and try to argue that coming to the Forgotten Realms message board and tossing insults directed at the campaign setting and it's respected creator is not blatant harassment to those fans who post here regularly.trolling or baiting by putting to the screen inflammatory statements designed to illicit a negative response from the community You've broken the Code of Conduct several times in your posts here and hopefully have been reported.
Masakado
11-06-03, 04:27 PM Originally posted by Delglath
And, anyway, plaigiarism is a form of compliment :)

The polytheism example is pretty lame, & is akin to saying that the Norse are guilty of violating the Greek's "patent" because both of their pantheons include a goddess of love (Aphrodite vs. Freyja.)

All polytheistic societies (even gaming ones) will pretty much have a deity for any concept they cannot readily explain away.
Yamo
11-06-03, 05:20 PM You've broken the Code of Conduct several times in your posts here and hopefully have been reported.

Yes, please summon the moderators before an actual passionate exchange starts. Heaven forbid people debate anything other than which of Drizzt's swords R0XX0RZ more. :rolleyes:

If the whole thing is really a non-issue, why do you care so much whether or not other people are discussing it in a thread?
Another Gnome
11-06-03, 06:10 PM Yamo:
Heaven forbid people debate anything other than which of Drizzt's swords R0XX0RZ more.

I'm almost tempted to believe Delglath is honestly not trying to pick a fight with this thread, but it won't change that he already did start a fight on the other thread (as far as those he upset are concerned, whether they are right in thinking that or not). Still, those wanting to discuss Greyhawk will find their way to GH boards without starting a thread on the FR board with an apparently deliberate provocative remark only moments after a mud-slinging contest.

And regardless of Delglath's intentions, did your comment quoted above somehow help in making this a productive discussion?

Both sides are way over-reacting, that much is obvious, but common sense should dictate that when you walk in the middle of an already suspicious or even hostile crowd, you do not start insulting that crowd and then complain how you're not given a chance to explain yourself.
Another Gnome
11-06-03, 06:27 PM And when it comes to boards moderation, here's a little something posted by WizO_BigSister as a reminder... not that I'd claim to follow those rules to the letter myself either... :embarrass

Linkity link (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=110347)
Yamo
11-06-03, 06:33 PM "Both sides are way over-reacting, that much is obvious, but common sense should dictate that when you walk in the middle of an already suspicious or even hostile crowd, you do not start insulting that crowd and then complain how you're not given a chance to explain yourself."

You're the one who's not giving your "crowd" much credit by assuming that they're not mature enough to discuss the issue rationally. I enjoy both settings and I enjoy the discussion. If you don't, that's fine, but complaining to moderators because a discussion is going on that you don't approve of is childish. Just leave said discussion to people who enjoy it and head off on your own merry way.
cwslyclgh
11-06-03, 08:07 PM as a person who runs both realms and greyhawk games I can honestly say that I think any aurguments over which is better are pretty pointless and stupid...

I do agree with Del about one thing... no matter what campaign setting you run if you ignore products from other settings just because they have a different setting name on the cover you are doing a grave diservice to yourself, your players and to your game....I can't think of a product that will not at least provide ideas or inspiration, and most products can be used nearly wholesale regardless of setting with just a little work on the DM's part.
Lashan
11-06-03, 08:24 PM Just to throw the topic thread a curve ball....why not discuss all the stuff that people use in their games? Personally, I've found many Mongoose Publishing books to be really interesting and good to use. Now, I don' t use or recommend all that they make, as I find a lot of it to be too power-gamer. I don't recommend the Quienessential Books or the Complete Books of <insert race>. I do like what I have seen from their Encyclopedia Magica (or whatever it is called), especially the Demonology book. It's the first real source that I have seen that deals with good game mechanics of summoning demons and devils.
cwslyclgh
11-07-03, 01:56 AM I like and use various things from mongooses' Encyclopedia Arcane series, and I agree that I like demonology the most from that series. I also use monsters from Armies of the Abyss and Liegions of Hell (Green Ronin publishers) on occasion, I think that Green Ronin on the whole makes some quality stuff.

I use stuff gleened from my FR books (mostly crunchy stuff like feats and PrC's although the PrC's are often Modified) in my greyhawk campaign and vice versa.

I do a lot of browsing in the stores, and I basicaly buy things that I think I can use, rather then a slavish devotion to a brand name.
WizO_BigSister
11-07-03, 03:33 AM The original reason for this thread as to encourage people to consider using material written for GreyHawk in Realms campaigns, and to read GH material for interest and enjoyment. This is perfectly acceptable. I am even happ for others to post links to such material.

A second theme has emergered - how much material in both worlds (and indeed in Earth) is similar. People have started to discuss the reasons for this - (including influence by the same "source material" ie literature and myth)

I am perfectly happy for these issues to be discussed on this forum so long as we follow the golden rule - it is ok to attack the ideas that someone has posted (especially if you back your own point of view); it is not ok to attack the person posting these ideas! If you can't tell the difference then perhaps you shouldn't post.

I am prepared to accept Delgath meant the plagiarism comment as a joke. However it would be best if we avoided all words like "libel", "plagiarism", "theft" and stuck to less emotionally laden and legally dodgy words like "influenced", "inspired by".

I am leaving this thread open but behave ... BigSister is watching you!
Masakado
11-07-03, 08:07 AM Originally posted by cwslyclgh
I like and use various things from mongooses' Encyclopedia Arcane series, and I agree that I like demonology the most from that series.

I am a martial arts buff, so I got Mongoose's Quintessential Monk.

Quite a remarkable resource.
Delglath
11-07-03, 08:38 AM Another of the articles in the LGJ is a detailed look at a vault of the drow, inspired by the original adventures based on the drow. This material IS virtually transposable into anyones setting since it's all about an underground race and, IIRC (although I could be wrong as I only ever skimmed the article... drow don't do much for me, but I know they're 'big' in the realms), concentrates on one particular city.

There was also an article on a mysterious bunch of magic-users and sages who dwelled in a tower and shunned most of the world. IIRC, it had a Prestige Class and again, all is easily adaptable to anyone's campaign, regardless of setting.

Then there was the brilliant write-up on the Bright Desert. A desert created thousands of years ago by the cursed artifact known as the Crown of the Scorpion King (this was WAAAAY before the Rock ever got involved...). It could easily fit in Anauroch or any other desert realm and the characters utilized in it could simply have their names changed to fit your campaign (in this case, it was Rary the Traitor who featured in the article since he's trying to find the crown and undo the curse... but change his name to something more... Netherese perhaps and he's a nice, epic character, all statted out :) ).

What else was there... an organization of freedom fighters with their own prestige class, IIRC. Umm... ooh! Death Knights! A whole host of nastiness! Then there was the write-up on Spinecastle, a citadel of evil easily transposable into another setting, and the monsters! There are a whole heap of monsters written up (updated from 1st and 2nd ed) including the norkers, losel, bullywug savants, steel dragons, and even a template for a free-willed undead (animus... Delglath is one of them :D ) more powerful than a lich, vampire or ghost!

Seriously people, I encourage you to give the LGJ a flip-through at the very least. Why am I doing this? Because like I said, I don't care if you use it in Forgotten Realms or Greyhawk or MyHomeBrewIsCool, but by reading it, you support the one avenue of new Greyhawk material left, which means it will continue to exist and may even flourish. And at the end of the day, good material is good material, and the LGJ is full of good material.
Mr. VanderMeer
11-07-03, 10:11 AM In my own campaign I use ideas and material from all Published Campaign Settings I can get my hands on. So Delgath suggestion to use LGJ material in other campaigns is a good idea.

About similarities between Greyhawk and FR. They both have the same roots and I think it is perfectly understandable that some good parts from one campaign are borrowed and used in the other.

And while I have my own favorites, I do think there is a little too much hostility going on. (Although that 'FR got robbed by generic D&D' thread was hilarious.)

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Delglath 11-06-03, 09:50 AM	Ok, let me first just state that this is NOT a troll. Please read on to clarify. Secondly, at the end of the day, even though I'm a dyed-in-the-wool, hard-nosed, unforgiving Greyhawk fan and FR-loather, I give a rats dirty behind whether material is 'stolen' from GH or not. Obviously, the matter is a lot more complex and I DO have feelings about it, it's just that after all is said and done, it matters little to me whether or not drow were taken from GH and used in FR. And, anyway, plaigiarism is a form of compliment :) Now, on to the point of this thread... Basically I'd like to encourage people to read and explore the Greyhawk material that IS still published. Because, at the end of the day, whether Greyhawk specific or not, a concept or detailed write-up is only really as specific as the names used in it. Therefore, though it may have the Greyhawk logo over the top, nothing is stopping you, as a DM or player, using the material in your FR game. And let's be realistic here, regardless of the source, like someone else said in another related thread in the GH forum, good material is good material, and bad material is bad material, who wrote it matters little. So, what material am I talking about? There is still Greyhawk material being published I hear you cry in amazement? Why yes, folks, there is! It's called the Living Greyhawk Journal, published in your friendly staple of D&D, Dungeon magazine! Now let's look at some of the articles that have been published recently in the LGJ (for a detailed listing, one can venture over to here: LGJ Index (http://www.canonfire.com/htmlnew//modules.php?name=Content&pa=showpage&pid=3)). Paladins of Greyhawk: Holy Warriors of the Flanaess By Gary Holian Details the holy warriors of Mayaheine, Murlynd, Pelor, Rao and St. Cuthbert. Paladins of Greyhawk: Holy Warriors of the Flanaess; part 2 By Gary Holian Details the holy warriors of Al'Akbar, Azor'Alq, Heironeous, Hextor, Pholtus, and Trithereon. Now, I know what you're thinking, these are all Greyhawk gods, right? Well, yes, they are... however, at the same time, it's not like Greyhawk and Forgotten Realms are so dissimilar when it comes to deities, so all you really have to do is find a god that is similar, and replace the name, do a little GH excising/FR replacing, and biz-bang-boom, you've got yourself a write-up for a paladinic order for your game! Now... let me think a bit... hmm... Mayaheine = Red Knight (sortof) St. Cuthbert = Tyr (sortof) Heironeous = Torm Hextor = Bane Trithereon = Lliira (sortof) These associations may not be perfect and I don't mean them to be. My point isn't that GH is transferable directly to FR or that they're somehow transposable, my point is that the LGJ contains a lot of decent articles and can by used as a reference by anyone who plays fantasy RPG's for inspiration, concepts, and maybe even material, statistics, NPC's, PrC's and whatnot. Most people gloss over it simply because it has the Living or the Greyhawk stamp on it. I'm just saying that you should give it a chance, you never know what surprises lie within.
Faraer 11-06-03, 10:17 AM	The Greyhawk-Realms antipathy consists largely of a few vocal Greyhawk fans who loudly voice bitterness against what they falsely perceive as being the Realms. (Realms fans, though probably on average less knowledgable about Greyhawk simply because they're on average younger, tend not to reciprocate the hostility.) It's both an obvious waste of time and profoundly irrational. Ed Greenwood loves the World of Greyhawk; Gary Gygax's only comments on the Realms have been appreciation for Ed's Dragon articles, and obviously no professional author indulges in absurd 'hatred' for either fictional setting. Far more fruitful than trumped-up rivalries or quests for origin is to compare the way each world has made use of many of the same sources in mid-20th-century heroic fantasy, from Clark Ashton Smith to Michael Moorcock to Jack Vance to Roger Zelazny. There are similarities and differences of interpretation and sensibility. Both aesthetics have little to do with certain developments of the 80s and 90s, and they share a fondness for the picaresque, the labyrinthine, the melodramatic, and for spontaneous creation in play. My own liking in the World of Greyhawk is for Gary Gygax's own material, from the original Greyhawk set to the Gord the Rogue novels to the voluminous works he's now writing with d20 publishers. My own experience of the Living Greyhawk Journal material is that though well meant and often well crafted, it often lacks for energy and inspiration. But there's no doubt that one's appreciation of the Realms can be increased by making use of Greyhawk material and appreciating its history and context. Delglath: Accusing Ed Greenwood of plagiarism (referring to material intended to be used in home campaign settings, not just the World of Greyhawk which was unpublished at the time) is libel. This is a serious matter than can affect people's careers, not something for messageboard banter.
Delglath 11-06-03, 12:53 PM	Originally posted by Faraer Delglath: Accusing Ed Greenwood of plagiarism (referring to material intended to be used in home campaign settings, not just the World of Greyhawk which was unpublished at the time) is libel. This is a serious matter than can affect people's careers, not something for messageboard banter. It was a joke you... bleh, why do I bother? Go, take everything seriously in the world and paint everyone in a negative light, for it is you who will suffer, suffer from a lack of joy that frivolity gives. My point still stands. There are many organizations and prestige classes and feats and fluff that appear in the LGJ that can be used with little effort on the part of the DM or simply as inspiration for ones game. I merely wish to point that out to those who tend to dismiss the LGJ simply because it has a Greyhawk logo on it.
Herr Doktor 11-06-03, 03:14 PM	I've got to say that part of the attraction any setting has for me is how those who play and DM in it act. As representatives of the campaign setting you're "defending", I've got to say that I've no wish to ever use anything from the setting nor ever visit the Greyhawk boards (though I have and continue to check out the LGJ, the drow mimes and artists in the one article were fun). I am tempted to add you to my ignore list as well, mister troll lord, sir. If you can't keep your ridiculous ego in check perhaps you should go pick on your younger siblings or something and show some respect to other board users. What you continue to do borders harassment... Go ahead and try to argue that coming to the Forgotten Realms message board and tossing insults directed at the campaign setting and it's respected creator is not blatant harassment to those fans who post here regularly.trolling or baiting by putting to the screen inflammatory statements designed to illicit a negative response from the community You've broken the Code of Conduct several times in your posts here and hopefully have been reported.
Masakado 11-06-03, 04:27 PM	Originally posted by Delglath And, anyway, plaigiarism is a form of compliment :) The polytheism example is pretty lame, & is akin to saying that the Norse are guilty of violating the Greek's "patent" because both of their pantheons include a goddess of love (Aphrodite vs. Freyja.) All polytheistic societies (even gaming ones) will pretty much have a deity for any concept they cannot readily explain away.
Yamo 11-06-03, 05:20 PM	You've broken the Code of Conduct several times in your posts here and hopefully have been reported. Yes, please summon the moderators before an actual passionate exchange starts. Heaven forbid people debate anything other than which of Drizzt's swords R0XX0RZ more. :rolleyes: If the whole thing is really a non-issue, why do you care so much whether or not other people are discussing it in a thread?
Another Gnome 11-06-03, 06:10 PM	Yamo: Heaven forbid people debate anything other than which of Drizzt's swords R0XX0RZ more. I'm almost tempted to believe Delglath is honestly not trying to pick a fight with this thread, but it won't change that he already did start a fight on the other thread (as far as those he upset are concerned, whether they are right in thinking that or not). Still, those wanting to discuss Greyhawk will find their way to GH boards without starting a thread on the FR board with an apparently deliberate provocative remark only moments after a mud-slinging contest. And regardless of Delglath's intentions, did your comment quoted above somehow help in making this a productive discussion? Both sides are way over-reacting, that much is obvious, but common sense should dictate that when you walk in the middle of an already suspicious or even hostile crowd, you do not start insulting that crowd and then complain how you're not given a chance to explain yourself.
Another Gnome 11-06-03, 06:27 PM	And when it comes to boards moderation, here's a little something posted by WizO_BigSister as a reminder... not that I'd claim to follow those rules to the letter myself either... :embarrass Linkity link (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=110347)
Yamo 11-06-03, 06:33 PM	"Both sides are way over-reacting, that much is obvious, but common sense should dictate that when you walk in the middle of an already suspicious or even hostile crowd, you do not start insulting that crowd and then complain how you're not given a chance to explain yourself." You're the one who's not giving your "crowd" much credit by assuming that they're not mature enough to discuss the issue rationally. I enjoy both settings and I enjoy the discussion. If you don't, that's fine, but complaining to moderators because a discussion is going on that you don't approve of is childish. Just leave said discussion to people who enjoy it and head off on your own merry way.
cwslyclgh 11-06-03, 08:07 PM	as a person who runs both realms and greyhawk games I can honestly say that I think any aurguments over which is better are pretty pointless and stupid... I do agree with Del about one thing... no matter what campaign setting you run if you ignore products from other settings just because they have a different setting name on the cover you are doing a grave diservice to yourself, your players and to your game....I can't think of a product that will not at least provide ideas or inspiration, and most products can be used nearly wholesale regardless of setting with just a little work on the DM's part.
Lashan 11-06-03, 08:24 PM	Just to throw the topic thread a curve ball....why not discuss all the stuff that people use in their games? Personally, I've found many Mongoose Publishing books to be really interesting and good to use. Now, I don' t use or recommend all that they make, as I find a lot of it to be too power-gamer. I don't recommend the Quienessential Books or the Complete Books of <insert race>. I do like what I have seen from their Encyclopedia Magica (or whatever it is called), especially the Demonology book. It's the first real source that I have seen that deals with good game mechanics of summoning demons and devils.
cwslyclgh 11-07-03, 01:56 AM	I like and use various things from mongooses' Encyclopedia Arcane series, and I agree that I like demonology the most from that series. I also use monsters from Armies of the Abyss and Liegions of Hell (Green Ronin publishers) on occasion, I think that Green Ronin on the whole makes some quality stuff. I use stuff gleened from my FR books (mostly crunchy stuff like feats and PrC's although the PrC's are often Modified) in my greyhawk campaign and vice versa. I do a lot of browsing in the stores, and I basicaly buy things that I think I can use, rather then a slavish devotion to a brand name.
WizO_BigSister 11-07-03, 03:33 AM	The original reason for this thread as to encourage people to consider using material written for GreyHawk in Realms campaigns, and to read GH material for interest and enjoyment. This is perfectly acceptable. I am even happ for others to post links to such material. A second theme has emergered - how much material in both worlds (and indeed in Earth) is similar. People have started to discuss the reasons for this - (including influence by the same "source material" ie literature and myth) I am perfectly happy for these issues to be discussed on this forum so long as we follow the golden rule - it is ok to attack the ideas that someone has posted (especially if you back your own point of view); it is not ok to attack the person posting these ideas! If you can't tell the difference then perhaps you shouldn't post. I am prepared to accept Delgath meant the plagiarism comment as a joke. However it would be best if we avoided all words like "libel", "plagiarism", "theft" and stuck to less emotionally laden and legally dodgy words like "influenced", "inspired by". I am leaving this thread open but behave ... BigSister is watching you!
Masakado 11-07-03, 08:07 AM	Originally posted by cwslyclgh I like and use various things from mongooses' Encyclopedia Arcane series, and I agree that I like demonology the most from that series. I am a martial arts buff, so I got Mongoose's Quintessential Monk. Quite a remarkable resource.
Delglath 11-07-03, 08:38 AM	Another of the articles in the LGJ is a detailed look at a vault of the drow, inspired by the original adventures based on the drow. This material IS virtually transposable into anyones setting since it's all about an underground race and, IIRC (although I could be wrong as I only ever skimmed the article... drow don't do much for me, but I know they're 'big' in the realms), concentrates on one particular city. There was also an article on a mysterious bunch of magic-users and sages who dwelled in a tower and shunned most of the world. IIRC, it had a Prestige Class and again, all is easily adaptable to anyone's campaign, regardless of setting. Then there was the brilliant write-up on the Bright Desert. A desert created thousands of years ago by the cursed artifact known as the Crown of the Scorpion King (this was WAAAAY before the Rock ever got involved...). It could easily fit in Anauroch or any other desert realm and the characters utilized in it could simply have their names changed to fit your campaign (in this case, it was Rary the Traitor who featured in the article since he's trying to find the crown and undo the curse... but change his name to something more... Netherese perhaps and he's a nice, epic character, all statted out :) ). What else was there... an organization of freedom fighters with their own prestige class, IIRC. Umm... ooh! Death Knights! A whole host of nastiness! Then there was the write-up on Spinecastle, a citadel of evil easily transposable into another setting, and the monsters! There are a whole heap of monsters written up (updated from 1st and 2nd ed) including the norkers, losel, bullywug savants, steel dragons, and even a template for a free-willed undead (animus... Delglath is one of them :D ) more powerful than a lich, vampire or ghost! Seriously people, I encourage you to give the LGJ a flip-through at the very least. Why am I doing this? Because like I said, I don't care if you use it in Forgotten Realms or Greyhawk or MyHomeBrewIsCool, but by reading it, you support the one avenue of new Greyhawk material left, which means it will continue to exist and may even flourish. And at the end of the day, good material is good material, and the LGJ is full of good material.
Mr. VanderMeer 11-07-03, 10:11 AM	In my own campaign I use ideas and material from all Published Campaign Settings I can get my hands on. So Delgath suggestion to use LGJ material in other campaigns is a good idea. About similarities between Greyhawk and FR. They both have the same roots and I think it is perfectly understandable that some good parts from one campaign are borrowed and used in the other. And while I have my own favorites, I do think there is a little too much hostility going on. (Although that 'FR got robbed by generic D&D' thread was hilarious.)