Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Delglath 11-12-03, 07:52 PM	What a butt... Link (http://www.dragonsfoot.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t=3236&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0)
cwslyclgh 11-12-03, 08:20 PM	Sort of imature... but Gary did include a ;) in each of his posts indicating that he was at least partialy kidding.
Wooly Rupert 11-12-03, 08:25 PM	I never had much problem with Gary Gygax until I'd read some of his commentary. When I started losing respect for him was when he referred to role-playing as "needless yakking" or something similar, and basically said that the point of gaming was hack and slash. I lost the rest of my respect for him when he started doing the "Up On A Soapbox" columns in Dragon magazine. Within about 6 of those columns, he convinced me that he was a pompous, self-important :censored:, and that nothing he said was worth paying attention to. Until I clicked on the link above, I'd not read anything by him since then. He could be a really nice guy for all I know, but I'm going by his own words. In the link in the first post, and other stuff I've read by him, he has done nothing to make me think well of him. He has instead engendered a healthy amount of disrespect. I don't care if he is in a forum, it's rather unprofessional of him to diss others the way he is in the above-linked forum. "Rotten Realms"? Dismissing the post that the Realms outsold Greyhawk by saying "Oh, that was probably Ed that said that"? "Dork Sun"? That was just uncool for a professional to say, even in jest. I respect Mr. Gygax for helping give us role-playing games, but that's it. I realize that a lot of people will not agree with me, and that's fine. I'm not trying to start a flame war, and if someone disagrees with me, that's fine, too, so long as they don't attack me. My dislike of Gygax is my opinion. Please, let this not devolve into a flame war.
Nightdruid 11-12-03, 09:04 PM	Originally posted by Wooly Rupert Please, let this not devolve into a flame war. I doubt it. The very nature of this thread a flamewar about to explode.
Ryltar Swordsong 11-12-03, 09:18 PM	Pathetic. Dark Sun is cooler than Greyhawk ever was or will be.
Mr. Wilson 11-12-03, 09:29 PM	.....And this is the point where someone will ride in and tell us that without Gary, we wouldn't have DnD..... ....What, you didn't expect me to say something nice about him did you?:nonono:
Herr Doktor 11-12-03, 09:43 PM	I believe that Delglath here has but one purpose for visiting the Realms boards, and that is to spread strife and dischord, much like our good friend Cyric. Gygax is a jerk for saying what he did, that much is obvious... I'd say a Dragonlance devotee bringing this to our attention however is a bit suspicious.
PhilCW 11-12-03, 10:56 PM	Sounds more like bitterness if you ask me. The game has greatly evolved in the many years that D&D has existed. Some for the worst, others for the best. I suppose M. gygax seems content with his nostalgia of the "good old days" when he was truly relevant to the industry.
Yamo 11-12-03, 11:09 PM	Eh. I don't see the big deal. Every gamer has games and settings they can't stand. Anything for White Wolf's World of Darkness setting makes me want to puke, for example. If Gygax doesn't like Dark Sun and Forgotten Realms, he has a right to his opinion. He's certainly not alone. Anybody personally offended by that needs to grow a thicker skin. If some guy in Wisconsin not liking Dark Sun really makes you that upset, you need a serious reality check.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 11-12-03, 11:14 PM	It's not what you say, it's how you say it. That's what all the hulabaloo is about, here.
Dargoth 11-12-03, 11:18 PM	Originally posted by Herr Doktor Gygax is a jerk for saying what he did, that much is obvious... I'd say a Dragonlance devotee bringing this to our attention however is a bit suspicious. The enemy of my enemy is my friend (For now)
Yamo 11-12-03, 11:19 PM	It's not what you say, it's how you say it. That's what all the hulabaloo is about, here. What "Dork Sun?" Geez. If I had a nickel for every time I've used "Vampire: the Masking Tape" or "World of Gothness", I'd be a millionaire. It's just snarky, dismissive (and goofy) gamer humor. Gygax has every right to use it that I do and it's lame to get upset over that kind of silliness.
Sirius_Black 11-13-03, 12:02 AM	Who's Gary Gygax???????!!!!!
Yamo 11-13-03, 12:08 AM	Who's Gary Gygax???????!!!!! Assuming you own at least one D&D rulebook, open it up and read the credits page.
Srinshee 11-13-03, 12:13 AM	I think he was being sarcastic. and i like the white wolf stuff. So there!
Wooly Rupert 11-13-03, 12:39 AM	I like World of Darkness... My point of contention is that one professional should not be insulting other professionals, or their work. C'mon, they should be above name-calling like that. I don't care if they absolutely hate each other and regularly stick pins in voodoo dolls, or burn each other in effigy. So long as they keep that to themselves, that's fine. But in a public setting, members of any profession should treat other members of the same profession with courtesy and respect. That's part of what being a professional is all about. To do otherwise is to simply be childish. What's next, an argument over who's dad can beat up the other one's dad? Most of us on this forum are not professionals, so we are not expected to act as such. But Gary Gygax is a professional, and he's one whose name carries a great deal of influence in the RPG community. He should recognize that responsibility, and act accordingly.
roler 11-13-03, 12:47 AM	quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Who's Gary Gygax???????!!!!! -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Exactly, exactly!
roler 11-13-03, 12:55 AM	... Gygax is not a just an ordinary gamer, he is also a Game Developer. He needs to be more like Monte Cook and then buy some class. I can't stand when he says what is and isn't rolepalying. He created the game but others have made it BETTER. The 80's are over, thank the gods. Some people may want to play games with "1st Edition Feel" and others want to have fun.:D Just kidding. All different styles of playing are respectable as long as people are having fun. Roleplaying is about having fun, not enjoying the fact that you are playing the "CORRECT WAY".
roler 11-13-03, 01:10 AM	I just went over there and gave them a piece of my mind. For the good of the Realms we must defend them! Seriously though those 1st Edition forum people are a bit fanatical at times. Some loathe anything that is different, and they seem to rip apart other peoples gaming "styles" . Elitist is a good word for some of them. That ticks me off to no end. I don't run around these boards proclaiming how we're playing RPGs the "RIGHT" way now do I? I don't even like all of Ed's Novels! I think his characters are a bit uninspired and his stories are filled with some horrible dialouge(SP?) See I am a fan of the man but I can criticize his work, unlike some of Gygax's fans who think everything he does is golden. It's not. Neither's Eds stuff. Live with it.
Delglath 11-13-03, 01:31 AM	Originally posted by Wooly Rupert I never had much problem with Gary Gygax until... -snip- ...let this not devolve into a flame war. Pretty much my thoughts exactly. Originally posted by Herr Doktor I believe that Delglath here has but one purpose for visiting the Realms boards, and that is to spread strife and dischord, much like our good friend Cyric. Well, ok... I *did* do it with an evil grin on my face, but the ultimate purpose of posting here was because I was incensed that he would go so low, especially when it's known and, more importantly, *I* know, that some of the people he was dissing, respect him and his work. Originally posted by Herr Doktor Gygax is a jerk for saying what he did, that much is obvious... I'd say a Dragonlance devotee bringing this to our attention however is a bit suspicious. Err... I'm a GREYHAWK fan... get it right!
Yamo 11-13-03, 01:34 AM	But in a public setting, members of any profession should treat other members of the same profession with courtesy and respect. Nonsense. Complete and utter nonsense. Being a writer, musician, filmmaker or any other type of creator or artist in no way limits your right to have opinions and share those opinions in any way you choose. A creator is a human being with views and the right to express those views. It's downright insulting to suggest that they should limit their expressions to suit your sensibilities.
Delglath 11-13-03, 01:40 AM	Originally posted by Yamo Being a writer, musician, filmmaker or any other type of creator or artist in no way limits your right to have opinions and share those opinions in any way you choose. A creator is a human being with views and the right to express those views. It's downright insulting to suggest that they should limit their expressions to suit your sensibilities. You don't seem to get it. It's not that he CAN'T have that opinion or that he hasn't got the right to express it, it's that it's simple, basic, common decency and manners, ie. professional courtesy, that says one shouldn't. Thus him doing so was both unprofessional and childish and just downright rude.
Gadodel 11-13-03, 05:12 AM	Newsflash . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . streaks through thread...in order to make the drama more exciting, I had to show some skin! :eek: :rolleyes:
Purple Dragon Knight 11-13-03, 05:37 AM	Who's got the Stryfe portfolio now? is it still Cyric? (answer to this question will affect the outcome of my next post)
Kalex the Omen 11-13-03, 07:56 AM	Err... I'm a GREYHAWK fan... get it right! Yeah, wasn't Dread Delglath a tournament PC in the Slavers series or Tomb of Horrors? It sounds awfully familiar. From the mind of Kalex the Omen
The White Sorcerer 11-13-03, 07:58 AM	Originally posted by Purple Dragon Knight Who's got the Stryfe portfolio now? is it still Cyric? Still Cyric.
Delglath 11-13-03, 08:46 AM	Originally posted by Kalex the Omen Yeah, wasn't Dread Delglath a tournament PC in the Slavers series or Tomb of Horrors? It sounds awfully familiar. I haven't read either module however I'm pretty sure he wasn't in either. Delglath was a minor Torquann noble who was a rather vicious, and therefore successful, priest of Erythnul. In Ivid V's mad scheme, Delglath played a part by being the official replacement for the lord of Rinloru, an important city that sat on a major trade route and information nexus that supported and supplied the very north of the Great Kingdom, and also had some influence over the city of Winetha. Ivid's plans went sour and so he simply slaughtered the lord of Rinloru and turned Delglath into an animus (a very powerful, free-willed undead/demon who retains all previous powers) so that he could retain control of Rinloru and spread fear. Unlike everyone else that Ivid 'gifted' or cursed with undeath, Delglath took a liking to it. In return, his patron (Erythnul) turned away from him. In anger, he called out to the lord of the dead, Nerull and Nerull heard and blessed him. He is now the chosen of Nerull on Oerth and has turned the majority of the population of Rinloru into undead. Due to this, many powerful priests of Nerull have flocked to his side. He is also known to be a very powerful spell caster and creator of magical items, having forged an artifact (Talisman of Ultimate Evil) with a piece from the Causeway of Fiends. He is also in possession of two other artifacts, of which are part of a quartet of artifacts which have a similar history. He has the Talisman of Krevell (an extremely powerful, long dead, priest of Nerull) and the Wand of Lyzandred (IIRC). Lakaster, one of the few magi powerful enough to best Mordenkainen or even Rary, has the other two, the Mace of Krevell and Circlet (I think, can't remember) of Lyzandred (I think that's not the proper name of the mage but I'm too drunk to remember). Anyway, if either of these items are paired with their partner, they become twice as powerful. Therefore Lakaster and Delglath desperately want each others items. Due to this intense lust for power, their own power, and the will and effort they are both putting into finding ways to get each others items, a mystical bond of power has formed which can be seen by detect magic, between the two cities (Rinloru and Winetha). Mordenkainen has theorized that should the bond continue to grow, it could flash and destroy all magic in the area. It's been over nine years since anyone has heard anything from either city...
roler 11-13-03, 09:00 AM	Guys like Monte Cook have a bunch of it and the Big G's got very little. Class that is.
Faraer 11-13-03, 09:39 AM	You'll see I posted there to 1. clarify what Gary meant by 'Rotten Realms', and 2. make sure he didn't get the false impression Ed had dissed him (which Gene Weigel, perhaps, wouldn't have minded). Those remarks don't reflect any dislike of those settings except on the level of 'they're not mine, so I can banter about them'. It's not my style (or Ed's), but it's not any kind of big deal.
Wooly Rupert 11-13-03, 09:58 AM	Originally posted by Yamo Nonsense. Complete and utter nonsense. Being a writer, musician, filmmaker or any other type of creator or artist in no way limits your right to have opinions and share those opinions in any way you choose. A creator is a human being with views and the right to express those views. It's downright insulting to suggest that they should limit their expressions to suit your sensibilities. And just where, pray tell, did I say that he was not allowed to have an opinion? I did not deny Mr. Gygax or anyone else the right to have an opinion, or even to state said opinion. Despite my personal dislike of Mr. Gygax, all I was attacking was his lack of courtesy and professionalism. Kindly go back and reread my second post. Had Mr. Gygax said something along the lines of "Well, I respect Ed, but we do have creative differences when it comes to setting up campaign worlds," or something like that, then I simply would have shrugged and moved on. But instead he was insulting, and that's what I take issue with. Again, reread my second post.
Faraer 11-13-03, 10:26 AM	Originally posted by Wooly Rupert Had Mr. Gygax said something along the lines of "Well, I respect Ed, but we do have creative differences when it comes to setting up campaign worlds," or something like that, then I simply would have shrugged and moved on. But instead he was insulting, and that's what I take issue with. Again, reread my second post.Although that wouldn't have reflected Gary's thoughts, because I don't think he's read anything of Ed's since about 1985 (when he praised his work in Dragon). Gary is *not* part of the Realms-'hating' fanatic-Greyhawker club. (Though he does himself no favours by not making that clearer.) He is a right-wing libertarian with a disdain for 'political correctness' and a sometimes-abrasive attitude. (Of course we might be sceptical of claims to want to avoid flame wars from people calling each other 'butts' and 'lame'.) By the way, I think this use of surnames introduces an artificial distance -- fake messageboard impartiality. These are people who you can talk to at conventions. You can email Gary Gygax and (graciously) get a reply. Please don't any of you get suckered into stupid partisanship.
Masakado 11-13-03, 10:28 AM	*sigh* I met the EGG at GenCon several years ago. The EGG isn't as much a pompous windbag as he is a guy with few, if any, social skills. An affliction, I might add, that strikes down a remarkable number of people that are associated in the RPG industry. whether they be gamers, developers, or what have you. It also doesn't help that the EGG is quite the Libertarian, & tends to equate "manners" with "political correctness." Quite a paradox, since the guy has enough imagination to dream up a game world, but not enough imagination to express himself in a professional or diplomatic manner. He's not a bad guy, but definitely someone I wouldn't drink with, lest he says something stupid after one too many shots of Cuervo. I tend to take his comments with a grain of salt because it's pretty obvious that the world has kept spinning while he's stood still. The industry isn't the underground niche market that it used to be & try as he might, the EGG, in his nostalgia for what was, can't will it back into the underground. The proverbial "genie" is indeed out of the bottle. It's sad that the brotherhood isn't the loose, casual confederation that it used to be, but that's the nature of business. What used to be an industry based on friendly rivalries has turned into a battleground for market share, and as such, the rules of decorum have changed dramatically. Before anyone gets riled up, I'm merely offering an insight into the EGG's comments, not excusing them. As I said before, the industry isn't the casual institution that is used to be, & professionalism should be the rule of the day. If you're not capable of offering constructive criticism of your peers, you should either shaddap, or hire a publicist.
Sirius_Black 11-13-03, 11:20 AM	Originally posted by Srinshee I think he was being sarcastic. Thanks for getting it Srinshee. But, I knew at least one person would bite on the hook....:D I need to go to the Dragonlance board and ask who Weis and Hickman are. :smirk:
Sirius_Black 11-13-03, 11:23 AM	Originally posted by roler ... Gygax is not a just an ordinary gamer, he is also a Game Developer. He needs to be more like Monte Cook and then buy some class. Good eye. Monte Cook is a very classy human being. I'm not a fan of many products his company puts out. But, every interview, chat, etc., I've had involving him has shown how really well he carries himself.
Sirius_Black 11-13-03, 11:25 AM	Originally posted by Delglath Thus him doing so was both unprofessional and childish and just downright rude. Class. For some people, it's just the last three letters.
Kalex the Omen 11-13-03, 12:50 PM	Delglath, I looked it up and there was a pre-generated tournament character in the Slavers series named Dread Delgath. Close but not the same. Personally I played Blodgett the thief when we ran those mods back in 1981-82. Don't think I've played a thief since. From the mind of Kalex the Omen
roler 11-13-03, 12:50 PM	Who is Gene Weigel anyway. I went on his website. He looks like one of those 1st Edition extremeists that don't like the new games and have to complain about them all the time. It's a free world so complain away. You just look kind of pathetic. I hate it when people act all superior when it comes to anything. Gamers thinking themselves better than me irks me even more. It's a freaking game! A GAME!!!! What is the difference between 1E & 3E? I find that a lot of 1E players want their games to almost be all Dungeon Crawls, where you go down "clean" out a Dungeon and go back to town to heal. When I want to play this way I will buy Diablo or any RPG video game. When I want to play real feeling PCs that lives are more about plunder and killing then I ROLEPLAY 3E, or any tabletop RPG. These are the differences that I see. Maybe that is just my stereotypical way of looking at things. I am sure there are roleplayers and hack n slashers in both Editions and in all RPGs. "Old School" to me means Clean and Sweep the Dungeon while the "New Wave"means adding a little depth.
roler 11-13-03, 01:01 PM	quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Originally posted by roler ... Gygax is not a just an ordinary gamer, he is also a Game Developer. He needs to be more like Monte Cook and then buy some class. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Good eye. Monte Cook is a very classy human being. I'm not a fan of many products his company puts out. But, every interview, chat, etc., I've had involving him has shown how really well he carries himself. ________________________________________ ____________ Gotcha. I loathe the Return to the Temple of Blah Blah Blah (and every other "Mega-Adventure out there) but he is a cool customer when it comes to not blasting other people and there games. Gygax comes off not so well. He kind of exudes that "My way is the right way" attitude at times. Should I start another thread to discuss how bad I thought Necropolis was?
Masakado 11-13-03, 01:37 PM	Originally posted by Kalex the Omen I looked it up and there was a pre-generated tournament character in the Slavers series named Dread Delgath. Quite correct. I played Kayen Telva, the Elf Ftr / Wiz, in a weekend-long run of the Slavers series at the same GenCon where I met the EGG. The pre-gen's are Elwita, Kayen Telva, Blodgett, "Ogre", Freda, Karraway, Dread Delgath, Eljayess, and Phanstern.
Cunning Linguist 11-13-03, 02:21 PM	looks like one of those 1st Edition extremeists that don't like the new games and have to complain about them all the time. Its like they say, some people want to play 1.ed, the rest of us wants to have fun.
ENHenry 11-13-03, 03:29 PM	Ironically, when visiting both 3E boards and 1E boards, all you have to do is switch the positions of the words "1E" and "3E", and "Greenwood" and "Gygax", and they are The Identically Same Posts. :D Everyone thinks their game is fun, and no one could conceivably have fun playing "that other game." But the fact is, as we all know, it's up to the GM and the players to make a game system fun; the proper GM and players could make Tiddlywinks: the Plinking hours of roleplaying fun for all ages. Gary's not a man to stand tall on Decorum, especially when he's calling 'em as he sees 'em. I may be disappointed when he digs at another industry professional, but I respect his right to say it.
Yamo 11-13-03, 03:47 PM	Ironically, when visiting both 3E boards and 1E boards, all you have to do is switch the positions of the words "1E" and "3E", and "Greenwood" and "Gygax", and they are The Identically Same Posts. Bingo. Everybody knows that everybody else's fun is stupid and wrong. Welcome to the Internet. ;) Gary's not a man to stand tall on Decorum, especially when he's calling 'em as he sees 'em. I may be disappointed when he digs at another industry professional, but I respect his right to say it. The man refuses to censor himself and calls things as he sees them. I can definitely respect that.
roler 11-13-03, 04:59 PM	I consider it foolish to bash on other creators in the "industry". Gamers are rapid loyal fans at times. Someone may like Gygax's game products and LOVE Eds, and he buys both of their stuff. Then the gamer hears Gygax bash someone he likes and he decides to NEVER buy anything related to the Big G again. Imagine a whole bunch of people that feel this way. It is not good for business. I respect a persons right to speak their mind, I don't respect someone being a di@$ about it! Anyone can be a schmuck and say every nasty thing that springs to their mind. That's not something people should respect IMO.
Masakado 11-13-03, 05:04 PM	Originally posted by Yamo The man refuses to censor himself and calls things as he sees them. I can definitely respect that. Bah. I respect him for his creativity, but still thinks he needs to take a better whiff of what he's shoveling. You can call it like you see it, and still avoid making a horse's patoot of yourself in the process. We're not talking about straight-shooting: we're talking about a complete lack of tact. Like the saying (paraphrased) goes, "Diplomacy is the act of telling someone to 'go to Hell,' but saying it in a manner that the person you're talking to actually looks forward to the trip." I kinda got a kick out of his "Dork Sun" comments. A stab at geekness from the man that named countries in Greyhawk after his friends.. Grand Duchy of Geoff, indeed. :rolleyes: Pot... Kettle... Black....
Thysl 11-13-03, 06:07 PM	Pot... Kettle... Black.... Indeed! I couldn't have said it better, myself! I look at this comment as altogether too humorous. This pushy, crunch-nerd bashes this windy, fluff-nerd... well, they're both nerds... I don't see a big deal, in the overall picture. In fact, both are reasonably popular, as nerds go, and probably don't really care about comments like this (they get them ALL the time). I don't know; sure it was a rude thing to say, but he's a rude guy. I'm sure Mr. Greenwood knows this as well as any.
WizO_BigSister 11-13-03, 08:33 PM	The link seems to go to a topic on another forum where I can't see anything by Gygax at all. Have you considered the possibility that not all people calling themselves Gary Gygax on posting forums are the GG we all know and love?
cwslyclgh 11-13-03, 08:43 PM	SIS... Col_Pladoh is Gary's SN on those boards where he is one of the moderators... and it is indeed the real EGG.
Kuje31 11-13-03, 08:43 PM	Originally posted by WizO_BigSister The link seems to go to a topic on another forum where I can't see anything by Gygax at all. Have you considered the possibility that not all people calling themselves Gary Gygax on posting forums are the GG we all know and love? Gary's handle on that board and ENWorld is Col_Pladoh :)
Delglath 11-13-03, 09:19 PM	Originally posted by ENHenry Ironically, when visiting both 3E boards and 1E boards, all you have to do is switch the positions of the words "1E" and "3E", and "Greenwood" and "Gygax", and they are The Identically Same Posts. :D Lol, totally! I usually avoid them these days, but I used to love getting involved in edition wars for precisely this reason. In fact, there was one time when I disguised my IP and argued against myself... man that was fun :D
roler 11-13-03, 10:51 PM	I don't even think we're being too harsh on lod Gygax. Nobody on this thread has said anything to mean about him, we just are amazed at his lack of respect and decorum. Let's make this thread be more about the Realms and bash the big G all at once. Why do people love Gygax's creations and call the Realms cheesy or munchkinville? Sure the Realms has had it's dark moments but look at all the insane stuff found in Gygax's Greyhawk. Look at all the silly named NPCs. Look at the old modules that were just meat grinders for the PCs. People who were tired of board games decided to "roleplay". It was an "Us" against "HIM" attitude, meaning players VS. DM. Screw telling a story, it was all about killing the players! This is traditionally the 1E sterotype. The Realms has its Uber NPCs and "High Magic" but it's history and isn't as bad as Greyhawks IMO. So why is Eds world viewed so poorly by the Gygaxites?
ElaineCunningham 11-14-03, 09:27 AM	quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- But in a public setting, members of any profession should treat other members of the same profession with courtesy and respect. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Originally posted by Yamo Nonsense. Complete and utter nonsense. Being a writer, musician, filmmaker or any other type of creator or artist in no way limits your right to have opinions and share those opinions in any way you choose. A creator is a human being with views and the right to express those views. It's downright insulting to suggest that they should limit their expressions to suit your sensibilities. Sorry, but I can't agree. When did courtesy and respect become nonsense? When did it become an insult to point out that professionals should comport themselves in a professional manner? Yes, everyone has a right to his or her opinion, but there are many circumstances that impose limits on the mode of expression. For example, profantity and flaming are not permitted in this forum. Common courtesy suggests that you should not accost a stranger on the street and share your highly negative opinion about her wardrobe or his weight. Freedom of speech is limited by freedom of assembly, so it would not be appropriate for a Jehovah Witness to attend a Baptist service for the sole purpose of standing up in the middle of the sermon to give his opinion on the pastor's theology. Freedom of speech is also limited by the rights of an individual to protect his reputation and his livlihood, so laws allow an individual to protest and seek reparations when "opinions" are expressed that can rightly be classified as slander or libel. There are times when keeping an opinion to yourself, or perhaps endowing it with a modicum of sensitivity and consideration, is not a violation of your sacred rights. Sometimes silence and moderation are virtues. At other times, discretion is simply good judgement and yes, professionalism. I do not subscribe to the widely-held belief that an Opinion is a sacred, inherently valuable thing that should be aired without forethought or filters in any forum and on all occasions. I just don't.
Masakado 11-14-03, 09:30 AM	Originally posted by Thysl I don't know; sure it was a rude thing to say, but he's a rude guy. More specifically, he's an old, rude guy so he's not about to have an epiphany & suddenly become an accomodating human being overnight. The EGG has been the EGG for a very long time. Which is why I don't think anyone should become overly offended by what he's saying. They are the comments of a guy that probably has more right to a professional opinion than most of us board posters, as well as the comments of a guy who wouldn't recognize decorum if it thumped him on the head with a large club. Take everything in it's proper context, & there's not too much that's terribly offensive in the EGG's comments. Ramblings of a decent, but sour, man that's seen the industry pass him by. Remember folks, bait is only bait when you bite onto the hook. Originally posted by roler Screw telling a story, it was all about killing the players! That's not necessarily true. The EGG has come up with some pretty sprawling mid-level to high-level scenarios which were very germaine to RP, most notably the "Against the Giants / Shrine of the Kuo Toa / Vault of the Drow" saga and the "Slavers" adventures. Then you have killer dungeons like the "Tomb of Horrors" which don't seem to serve any purpose than to kill PC's and wreck real-life friendships. ;)
ENHenry 11-14-03, 09:46 AM	Originally posted by roler [B]I don't even think we're being too harsh on lod Gygax. Nobody on this thread has said anything to mean about him, we just are amazed at his lack of respect and decorum. Feel free to do so; one of the other things I respect is living with the consequences of one's actions - and Gary knows that. Let's make this thread be more about the Realms and bash the big G all at once. Why do people love Gygax's creations and call the Realms cheesy or munchkinville? Sure the Realms has had it's dark moments but look at all the insane stuff found in Gygax's Greyhawk. Mostly because the original feel of Greyhawk was closer to Moorcock and Leiber than Tolkien or Greenwood. The names may have been goofy, but the tone was a little more raw and less refined, and definitely darker. Look at all the silly named NPCs. Look at the old modules that were just meat grinders for the PCs. The thing is, for every Kewl River, Gnarley Forest, and Fage the Kexy, there is a Fredegar of Silverymoon, a Mirt the Moneylender, or a Shoon empire. As for the modules, Ed had his Undermountain - it was just published later than the Tomb of Horrors. This is also accentuated by different DM'ing styles, the same thing that causes RPG'ers to argue from place to place on the internet. One thing the old modules did do that a lot of FR'specific ones did not - they encouraged a different set of skills including critical thinking and puzzle analysis. A sharp player COULD make it through Tomb of Horrors with one or two fights only; Modules like For Duty and Deity, however, encourage analyzing people's motives, and being able to use diplomacy to escape a meat-grinder situation. Different skills. People who were tired of board games decided to "roleplay". It was an "Us" against "HIM" attitude, meaning players VS. DM. Screw telling a story, it was all about killing the players! This is traditionally the 1E sterotype. Which, as was said, is a stereotype. The truth is given in Gary's statements about being impartial, against both "giving away the store" as well as "killer DM'ing," and about putting the solid mechanical adventure within the confines of your own story. More people use adventures without a lot of story flavor, than adventures that have a given story as integral. It's easier IMO to drop "Steading of the hill giant chief" into a homebrew campaign than it would be "for Duty and Deity" or "Marco Volo's journey" adventures. The Realms has its Uber NPCs and "High Magic" but it's history and isn't as bad as Greyhawks IMO. So why is Eds world viewed so poorly by the Gygaxites? Ed's and Gary's worlds share one thing in common: The published version was NOTHING LIKE the original material. As someone pointed out over on Dragonsfoot, Ed's original map was similar to RE Howard's Hyborea, and another map grafted to the framework of Ed's design. Similarly, Gary's Flanaess map is NOT the map he played in the 1970's - it was crafted whole cloth for the Greyhawk release, and the source info inserted into analogous positions. Each only had a framework to deal with; however, the Realms both suffered and benefitted from a stream of game designers and authors over a 15 year period who modified Ed's original framework to include their own material; the whole is now canon - you don't have a bunch of Realms fans out there decrying that Eric Boyd's, Rich Baker's, Scott Bennie's, and Sean Reynolds' Realms work is "not canon", especially because there is still SOME unity of vision, even if not total - However, Gary's Greyhawk work, because of the hostility in his original parting, suffers from fractionalization of both vision and concept, and you've got 15 different rabid fan camps that are Pro-Sargent and anti-Sargent, Pro-Reynolds and anti-Reynolds, Pro-Mona and Anti-Mona, and SOME even Anti-Gygax Greyhawk fans! (insane concept, but still around. :D) So in summary, there's a lot of bitterness because of the way FR was treated over Greyhawk, and that bitterness subsided in the late 1990's a large amount due to what looked like a "Greyhawk renaissance" - only to be dashed yet again when the hope engendered in the "Greyhawk Players Guide" and "Greyhawk-Legend Begins" books took a back seat to "Living Greyhawk Gazeteer" vs. the SLEW of Realms-specific support. It's been a bumpy ride; when Troll Lord Games releases Castles and Crusades, and Zagyg's Castle, it's probably going to get a lot smoother, but a whole lot weirder. When (IF!) Zagyg's Castle is ever released, you are going to see the one thing Greyhawk fans have been bitter about for 20 years: A serious treatment of Gary's and Rob Kuntz's original Greyhawk Castle design (albeit with most of the serial numbers filed off). I for one plan to pick it up, because my curiosity is piqued.
Will Brandiman 11-14-03, 10:30 AM	Originally posted by Masakado That's not necessarily true. The EGG has come up with some pretty sprawling mid-level to high-level scenarios which were very germaine to RP, most notably the "Against the Giants / Shrine of the Kuo Toa / Vault of the Drow" saga and the "Slavers" adventures. Then you have killer dungeons like the "Tomb of Horrors" which don't seem to serve any purpose than to kill PC's and wreck real-life friendships. ;) Indeed. Straight from the EGG's mouth. at GenCon 2001 I ran a Sunday game where the nine players knew I was bent on killing their characters.... At the very last several survivors succumbed, as was meant to happen, and only one managed to escape, which shows that many real gamers do attend GenCon. Real gamers. I think that sums up EGG's viewpoint.
The Anton 11-14-03, 11:00 AM	I really canīt seem to find anywhere these words of Col_/EGG in Delgaths link. Not even in the sublinks ,can anyone show me??
Anvil 11-14-03, 11:00 AM	Again we hear this bilge about the Realms using the Hyborian Age map of REH. Not true. I was at an early GenCon where Ed Greenwood's pencil (and HUGE! all taped together) map was on display at a panel, and he and a lot of TSR guys (Grubb, Karen Martin, at least three others) described being knocked out by it and how they had to decide what to chop from the first product. I seriously doubt they were all lying, or that Ed or anyone else went to the trouble of hand-drawing 50-plus sheets of paper just to concoct a false map. Sometimes the Net falsehoods get a bit thick.
roler 11-14-03, 11:15 AM	If I was a novel or supplement writer for the Realms and I found out Gygax called the campaign world I help work on the "Rotten Realms", I'd be ticked off. Especially if I disliked his work and always kept a civil tongue about how I felt about it. How do the FR writers that read these boards feel about a fellow game Developer/"Writer"(cringe) making snide comments about a world they have helped create? Or do you guys even care what he says?
Wooly Rupert 11-14-03, 11:34 AM	Originally posted by Anvil Again we hear this bilge about the Realms using the Hyborian Age map of REH. Not true. I was at an early GenCon where Ed Greenwood's pencil (and HUGE! all taped together) map was on display at a panel, and he and a lot of TSR guys (Grubb, Karen Martin, at least three others) described being knocked out by it and how they had to decide what to chop from the first product. I seriously doubt they were all lying, or that Ed or anyone else went to the trouble of hand-drawing 50-plus sheets of paper just to concoct a false map. Sometimes the Net falsehoods get a bit thick. Mr. Greenwood himself addressed this one. Here's a link Borrowed from someone else in another thread, to the FR mailing list: http://oracle.wizards.com/scripts/wa.exe?A2=ind0311b&L=realms-l&D=1&O=D&P=17813
Wooly Rupert 11-14-03, 11:42 AM	Originally posted by The Anton I really canīt seem to find anywhere these words of Col_/EGG in Delgaths link. Not even in the sublinks ,can anyone show me?? As was stated in an above post, Mr. Gygax goes by the name Col_Pladoh.
Korgan26 11-14-03, 12:24 PM	Masakado hit it on the nose. He has been and always will be like this!! I have a hard time believing people are still surprised by his lack of tact. Z
ElaineCunningham 11-14-03, 12:25 PM	Originally posted by roler If I was a novel or supplement writer for the Realms and I found out Gygax called the campaign world I help work on the "Rotten Realms", I'd be ticked off. Especially if I disliked his work and always kept a civil tongue about how I felt about it. How do the FR writers that read these boards feel about a fellow game Developer/"Writer"(cringe) making snide comments about a world they have helped create? Or do you guys even care what he says? In her Miss Manners columns (very funny if you enjoy dry humor), Judith Martin is frequently asked for snappy responses that will put the rude and unmannerly in their proper place. Rather than indulge in genteel snipiness, however, she stresses that truly polite people do not focus on other people's bad behavior. If the core tenant of good manners is treating people as you would like to be treated, becoming an ettiquette cop, gossip, or critic does seem to undercut the whole concept. :) This question, though quite understandable in context of standing up for a beloved setting and its Creator, veers perilously close to a Miss Manners scenario. How does one castigate a man who sneers at his fellow professionals without being, in turn, unprofessional? If gamers wish to relate their negative experiences with and impressions of Mr. Gygax, that is one thing. For a working writer to do so is quite another. I doubt you'll have many takers, Mr. Roler. :)
roler 11-14-03, 12:46 PM	If gamers wish to relate their negative experiences with and impressions of Mr. Gygax, that is one thing. For a working writer to do so is quite another. I doubt you'll have many takers, Mr. Roler. ________________________________________ ____________ Gotcha. On another note I like what writers like Salvatore, Grubb, Novak and yourself have done for the setting. You've made people want to mix a decent story in with their Crawls. You guys gave us a wonderful look at how the Realms can be. Lots of good memories come from those books.
Sirius_Black 11-14-03, 12:46 PM	Remember what I said about Monte Cook. Add Elaine Cunningham to the list. Moreover, from what I've seen in some postings from other WOTC authors, there are a great many others that have manners and courtesy. That fact is nice to see.
ENHenry 11-14-03, 02:04 PM	Originally posted by Wooly Rupert Mr. Greenwood himself addressed this one. Here's a link Borrowed from someone else in another thread, to the FR mailing list: http://oracle.wizards.com/scripts/wa.exe?A2=ind0311b&L=realms-l&D=1&O=D&P=17813 I stand corrected. This one is snipped for my personal archive -- thanks! I do stand by the Greyhawk map being re-done for publication, as that info came direct from Gary himself in 2002, I believe on one of the ENWorld Boards in the Q&A with Gygax thread, though I cannot be certain. He specifically said that the original Greyhawk map bore a heavy resemblance to the Chicago/Great Lakes area, with Greyhawk being chicago (go figure) :)
Faraer 11-14-03, 02:18 PM	Yes, there's no doubt the shape of the Flanaess in the 1980 maps was worked up for that project, though Gary quickly adopted that geography to his own campaign. Changes were made to Ed's maps for the 1987 Realms, such as moving Evermeet closer, replacing the Moonshae Isles, and adding Vaasa and Damara, but generally the 1987 box is very close to Ed's Realms. And the Realms owe just as much to Moorcock and Leiber as Greyhawk does, and only slightly more to Tolkien. Inane tribalistic rivalries lead people to exaggerate the differences and gloss over the similarities.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 11-14-03, 05:45 PM	Originally posted by Yamo What "Dork Sun?" Geez. If I had a nickel for every time I've used "Vampire: the Masking Tape" or "World of Gothness", I'd be a millionaire. It's just snarky, dismissive (and goofy) gamer humor. Gygax has every right to use it that I do and it's lame to get upset over that kind of silliness. Everyone can say anything they want to. But there are consequences for everything, and people react in different ways. That's basically my point (notice I haven't actually given my opinion about it???). Some people thought it was more than just trivial, and maybe there are good reasons for feeling that way, so who cares? They have the right to express their opinions as well.
Delglath 11-14-03, 07:21 PM	Originally posted by Wooly Rupert Mr. Greenwood himself addressed this one. Here's a link Borrowed from someone else in another thread, to the FR mailing list: http://oracle.wizards.com/scripts/wa.exe?A2=ind0311b&L=realms-l&D=1&O=D&P=17813 Y'know, I have to say, after reading this, my respect for Mr. Greenwood has gone up several notches. In regards to Greyhawk, I only WISH that Gygax could be so mature and understanding as this: Ed Greenwood said: Please note that I am not claiming that 'my' Realms vision is The One True Way. The moment the Realms became a shared world, it was both inevitable and intended that it reflect lots of different creative interests, doing their own thing and going in different directions. That is a strength, well managed (and of course a weakness, if not well managed).
ValiantCavalier 11-14-03, 07:25 PM	Originally posted by roler ... Gygax is not a just an ordinary gamer, he is also a Game Developer. He needs to be more like Monte Cook and then buy some class. I can't stand when he says what is and isn't rolepalying. He created the game but others have made it BETTER. The 80's are over, thank the gods. Some people may want to play games with "1st Edition Feel" and others want to have fun.:D Just kidding. All different styles of playing are respectable as long as people are having fun. Roleplaying is about having fun, not enjoying the fact that you are playing the "CORRECT WAY". He makes an excellent point that I will elaborate on. D&D and D&D-assoctiated games have one guiding principle. YOU define what is and is not. Everything in your world exsists becaue you will it to. There's no wrong or right way to play beause of this. This is why Gygax is being treated so "harshly". IMO, Gygax was acting kind've fanboy-ish... >_>
Jem Purplefeather 11-14-03, 09:48 PM	While you have a point, I believe that DM's should uphold certain standards for their player's conduct. For instance, no raping woman or torturing NPCs. If my PC's wants to be a sociopath, then he can do it somewhere else in my own opinion. I don't allow that thing. I believe that Adventurers were meant to be the good guys, not the bad guys.
WizO_BigSister 11-14-03, 10:15 PM	Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin Everyone can say anything they want to. This is NOT aimed at Rinonalyrna who is saying some very good things. I just want to remind you that when you joined this board you agreed to follow the CoC, and therefore you CAN'T say anything you want to :D The rules of politeness you agreed to follow here can be summed it in three short sentances * Don't swear. * Be considerate of other people, and realise they may have a different sense of humour or different areas of sensitivities as your own. * It is ok to attack and argument, but it is not ok to attack the person making the argument. In other words behave the same way as you would in face to face conversation with people you don't know that well.
ValiantCavalier 11-14-03, 10:27 PM	Umm... Ok.... *hides bloodied pick-axe* No attacks here.... No siree.... No murders either...... >_>
roler 11-14-03, 11:40 PM	Do you mean me? If I am getting out of hand , just ask me to tone it down few notches and I will. This has not become a anti-Gygax thread yet. It's just us players relaying how we feel about the creator of our hobby bashing the Campaign World we love and cherish. Hmmm. I am starting to think the Little G isn't as nice as everyone says he is. Think about it. He started RPGs. Tabletop, LARP, VIDEOGAMES!!! The Japanese must think he's bigger than Godzilla. If he has helped create something sooooo big and in his eyes not been compensated he might be bitter and resentful to every RPG Tabletop game that is doing better than his current product. He must be a very sad man if this is the case. Remember Little G the fun's the key, not how you play or how much money the other guy is making. Gaming has "matured" and I think its Creator should as well.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 11-15-03, 12:20 AM	Originally posted by WizO_BigSister This is NOT aimed at Rinonalyrna who is saying some very good things. I just want to remind you that when you joined this board you agreed to follow the CoC, and therefore you CAN'T say anything you want to :D Actually, what I said isn't wrong even in regards to these boards... Even in spite of the rules, people can still say what they want to. It is just that--as I said--there are consequences for doing so. A person *can* break the CoC, but that doesn't mean they will not be punished or banned for it. You can choose to violate trust, but you will most likely get banned and not be able to do it a second time. It works the same way in the real world--laws and the criminal justice system establish social order and punish (and attempt to deter) crime, but they don't actually *eliminate* crime. And of course, you *can* say something completely rude and impolite, but as a result people may get offended and angry at you.
Delglath 11-15-03, 12:44 AM	Originally posted by Jem Purplefeather While you have a point, I believe that DM's should uphold certain standards for their player's conduct. For instance, no raping woman or torturing NPCs. If my PC's wants to be a sociopath, then he can do it somewhere else in my own opinion. I don't allow that thing. I believe that Adventurers were meant to be the good guys, not the bad guys. I agree that the PC's should be the good guys... or at the very least, not the bad guys. However, rape, torture, etc.... that's what seperates good from bad. My bad guys are BAD. They don't explain their entire, Machiavellian plot before putting the PC's into a complex Trap of Doom from which they can easily escape... no, they put needles in the PC's eyes, kill the PC's family and rape the PC's familiar... because they're BAD. Without contrast, good isn't really all that good... besides, it makes the players REALLY hate the BBEG :D
Sariel Rahab 11-17-03, 01:47 PM	D'oh, for one reason or another I did not see that this thread had more than one page. Well, here is my now maybe a bit outdated reply anyway :) Originally posted by Kalex the Omen Yeah, wasn't Dread Delglath a tournament PC in the Slavers series or Tomb of Horrors? It sounds awfully familiar. From the mind of Kalex the Omen Dread Delgath also was the name Jack Ravenwild, the "hero" of the City of Ravens, used for his wizard alias. Maybe what you were thinking about? Oh, when it comes to Gary, of course he should be entitled to let his views be known, but I belive that he indeed could be more diplomatic and, if I can be so bold, act more according to how a man of his age and esteem should act. Of course one could argue about how that is, but I feel that you will always get further by being a bit diplomatic. Not forcing everyone down in the trenches.
Masakado 11-18-03, 02:30 PM	Originally posted by Sariel Rahab Dread Delgath also was the name Jack Ravenwild, the "hero" of the City of Ravens, used for his wizard alias. Maybe what you were thinking about? Nope, I think he's referring to the Slavers pre-gen character. 3ed conversion of some material from "Slavers" in .rtf fomat: http://66.34.111.89/Eric/conversions/slave_lords_1.rtf
Tempus665 11-19-03, 06:55 AM	Originally posted by Wooly Rupert I never had much problem with Gary Gygax until I'd read some of his commentary. When I started losing respect for him was when he referred to role-playing as "needless yakking" or something similar, and basically said that the point of gaming was hack and slash. I lost the rest of my respect for him when he started doing the "Up On A Soapbox" columns in Dragon magazine. Within about 6 of those columns, he convinced me that he was a pompous, self-important :censored:, and that nothing he said was worth paying attention to. Until I clicked on the link above, I'd not read anything by him since then. He could be a really nice guy for all I know, but I'm going by his own words. In the link in the first post, and other stuff I've read by him, he has done nothing to make me think well of him. He has instead engendered a healthy amount of disrespect. I don't care if he is in a forum, it's rather unprofessional of him to diss others the way he is in the above-linked forum. "Rotten Realms"? Dismissing the post that the Realms outsold Greyhawk by saying "Oh, that was probably Ed that said that"? "Dork Sun"? That was just uncool for a professional to say, even in jest. I respect Mr. Gygax for helping give us role-playing games, but that's it. I realize that a lot of people will not agree with me, and that's fine. I'm not trying to start a flame war, and if someone disagrees with me, that's fine, too, so long as they don't attack me. My dislike of Gygax is my opinion. Please, let this not devolve into a flame war. Couldnīt agree more :) I was going to quote only part of your response, but then I realized all of it was true.
Sariel Rahab 11-21-03, 01:29 PM	Originally posted by Masakado Nope, I think he's referring to the Slavers pre-gen character. 3ed conversion of some material from "Slavers" in .rtf fomat: http://66.34.111.89/Eric/conversions/slave_lords_1.rtf Sorry, that last part wasn't supposed to be there, it just got left when I edited :) Originally posted by Sariel Dread Delgath also was the name Jack Ravenwild, the "hero" of the City of Ravens, used for his wizard alias. Maybe what you were thinking about? That part...