Halaster revisted [Archive] - Wizards Community

Halaster revisted [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
MarkusTay63
02-17-07, 07:09 PM Recently someone was asking about Halaster's aparent immortality in This Thread. (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=763436)
My brain works funny, and sometimes something will sit on the back burner slow-cooking, and then suddenly rush to the forefront with inspiration.

Either that, or I'm just overly an@l-retentive. :D

Anyway, In fantasy most wizards are immortal, or near-immortal. Gandalf, Merlin, Belgarath, Elminster, etc. In the Wheel of Time series, they explain that it is contact with the flows (magic) that causes this as a side-affect.

I like this idea a lot, and it would explain quite a bit. I have postulated that raw primal magical energy, often times called Mana, is the same as the very stuff of life. That is why in 2e you had to give up ability points to make items, and in 3e you have give up experience. You use a little bit of your own 'life-force' to create these things. So, every time you touch the Weave, you siphon off just a wee bit of 'life'.

In game terms, I would use the following rules -

For every Spell level you are able to cast, you get to minus that many years of ageing from every ten years of time. So at 9th level you can cast 4th level spells, so for every ten years that go by the character would only age 6. This would progress all the way up to 18th level, when a caster is only ageing 1 year in 10! So if a Spellcaster hits 18th level at age 30, he will only look 80 years old when he is really 530.

Now to progress this further, if you are able to cast epic spells, then you only get another 1/2 year shaved of, binging it to ageing 6 months every 10 years, or 1 year for every 20. Then, you would also get ANOTHER half year if you are a Chosen, meaning that you would NOT age at all anymore if you also were at least 18th level AND were able to cast epic spells.

This would explain why people like El, Khelben, and the Shrinshee no longer age, and why less powerful people merely age slowly.

I don't think this would really affect game balance, and in the long run would explain away much. Especially considering that potions of Longevity no longer exist; there is no need for them with this new rule. Also, if you notice, its always the Elven Mages who can resist the call to Arvandor for so long, another piece to the puzzle, although not as beneficial to them, I suppose.

So what do you guys think? Is this a good rule to incorporate, or am I an idiot? :doh:
selunatic2397
02-17-07, 07:41 PM Sounds good to me!

In 1st edition you gave up points of constitution to cast permanancy on yourself and had a chance to lose a point if you cast it on a magic item...

Your idea makes sense...although I have never had a PC die of old age yet...

Die of violence, Yes, but old age, Never!
Stigger
02-17-07, 08:42 PM Erm... Dove being one of Mystra's Chosen doesn't age much at all... might want to rephrase that little bit a little. Kinda explicitly states in the template that they don't age anymore... but I can see where you're going with it I suppose. Seems pretty logical really, with the exception of the Chosen thing.

Though personally, I very much dislike the current system of magical item creation. I completely and utterly disagree that making a magical item would require an expenditure of experience or 'life-force'... it just makes absolutely no sense to my way of thinking. You're playing with magic, seeing how it interacts with the world around it... it makes no sense to me that you aren't learning from that interaction with it. I understand why those rules are in place, and the reasoning behind them, but I find the logic inconsistent with my own view of how things should work, so I obviously house rule that one.

Not that magical item creation has anything to do with the thread... sorry, shutting up about it now.
MarkusTay63
02-17-07, 11:28 PM Erm... Dove being one of Mystra's Chosen doesn't age much at all... might want to rephrase that little bit a little. Kinda explicitly states in the template that they don't age anymore... but I can see where you're going with it I suppose. Seems pretty logical really, with the exception of the Chosen thing.Good catch, Stigger. I changed it.

Where are the Chosen templates? (please don't say F&P bacause thats one of the few I don't own).

Do other gods chosen age? Cause if they do then I have to change more then a single name. Personally, I still like my way better, if someone was lucky enough to become a Chosen at level 1 they wouldn't age, which I think should only apply to the truly 'epic' Chosen, like Khelben or Elminster. The others should just get a boost.

But whatever, I don't work for WotC unfortunately. :bored:

I do agree that the current mage item creation system is a nightmare. I couldn't even figure out how to use it to create something new. Basically, you're on your own with that. I used to play a game system back in '79 that was extremely well thought out, logical, simple to implement, and you could create just about anything you cou imagine. The formula would even give you lists of material components, costs, time, etc...

I can't for the life of me figure out why D&D can't get it right nearly thirty years later. They make it much more complex then it need be.
msatran
02-17-07, 11:32 PM The only thing Halaster needs is 5 levels of Dungeon Lord, and he's golden.

Pick up Dungeonscape. If ANYONE should have 5 levels of this class just thrown on his sheet, it would be the big H..
MarkusTay63
02-17-07, 11:38 PM Your idea makes sense...although I have never had a PC die of old age yet...

Die of violence, Yes, but old age, Never!Well, that was kind of the point. It really doesn't affect game balance, its more of an explanation of things.

Unless he's a chosen, a mage will eventually have to figure out another way to cheat death, which is how it works anyway.

The only thing Halaster needs is 5 levels of Dungeon Lord, and he's golden.

Pick up Dungeonscape. If ANYONE should have 5 levels of this class just thrown on his sheet, it would be the big H..Sounds like one of my old favorite computer games, DungeonKeeper.

It was soooo much fun to be the bad guy killing those nasty heroes :D
Stigger
02-18-07, 02:51 AM Chosen of Mystra template appears on pg 247 of the FRCS actually... which I presume you have. Chosen of Bane template appears in F&P though.

Just as a side note, Dungeon Keeper II was better than the first one, at least as far as I'm concerned. :P
Myssa Rei
02-19-07, 02:40 AM Aside from the Chosen of Mystra, the other two Chosen templates (well, not really Chosen, but more like mortal 'Champion') officially printed -- that of Deneir and Bane -- don't list immunity to aging or any perceived longetivity in them, so it's very likely that their current holders (Cadderly and Fzoul) will die once their natural lifespans are up.

Well, except Fzoul perhaps, as Bane has this nasty habit of turning his former 'Chosen' into Baneliches...

As for Halaster, well, his apparent longetivity post-settlement on Mount Waterdeep has already been explained through his Undermountain Entrenchments... Which, by the way, cease working on him once he steps out of the Undermountain for any prolonged period of time (which happened in the Dungeon Crawl: Stardock adventure). He stays out long enough, and he'd probably die of old age. Ouch.

Strangely enough though, if the hints here and there dropped by authors over the years are correct, then he's probably even older than that. At the very least, he's a surviving practitioner of the Imaskari ways of magic... Which, mind you, predates Netheril. Which means, pre-Undermountain, he's already been unknown enchantments (one of those things a DM could play around with) to prolong his life.
MarkusTay63
02-19-07, 05:00 AM I know there ARE several in-game explanations - Halaster has Undermountain, Elminster is Chosen, Maskar wands drinks potions, Aumvor's apprentice Morasha's uses the Living Zombie spell, Larloch's got lichdom, Iuolum's a big ol' brain, etc...

I was just trying to simplify it by saying "Wizards live longer because they use magic" and give a half-way plausable reason why that is so. I just hate having so many reasons to accomplish basically the same thing.

Just as a side note, Dungeon Keeper II was better than the first one, at least as far as I'm concerned. :PI HATED Dungeonkeeper II! So did my kids, but we all loved DK1.

They got rid of the best classes, the dragons (fighting AND spell research) and the 'crazy nakit black chicks (can't remember what they were called, just that they went around whipping everybody), and the 3D was chunky and ran like cr@p (early 3D usually did). I liked the sprite-based first game, much easier to make everything out.

Just to point out - They came out with the first one (Bullfrog) and they made a fortune, they came out with the second one and went bankrupt a few months later.

Thats why we never saw a DK3. I think you were the one person who enjoyed it. :(
Stigger
02-19-07, 05:01 AM He's somewhere on the order of 5-6 thousand if he did indeed learn in the Imaskari empire itself... unless he learned from the Deep Imaskari maybe... but I kinda doubt that for some reason. Doesn't quite feel right.
Faraer
02-19-07, 03:07 PM In the Realms, many wizards seek out new ways to hoard magic and unnaturally extend their own lives. Having longevity be a natural, automatic consequence of Art would seriously harm this major theme of the setting.
ZolDarklock
02-21-07, 12:16 AM the point of constitution loss was for creating PERMANENT magical items, which I think permanent magical items need to take something to power them forever, and it kept any world with magic use from becomeing neck deep in magical items in a few years...

come on guys every game world created is a joke with there magical item creation now, if them worlds were really that easy to create them, with no personal risk, then they would all be swimming neck deep in outrageously powerful magical items quickly
Morin
03-18-07, 08:42 AM I know the point of this thread was about Halaster and Forgotten Realms Wizards, but Gandalf is not a mortal or immortal like the Elves, Men and Dwarves. He's a Maiar Spirit, which is much like a Demi-God or Arch-Angel. Where wizards refer to magic users in Dungeons and Dragons, Wizards, or otherwise known as Istari, in Lord of the Rings refers to the only 5 Maiars that travelled to Middle Earth in the 3rd age.

If anyone wishes check these sources than read The Silmarillion.
Lykor
04-07-07, 01:32 PM Lorewise, you have several options: lichdom, chosen of a diety, some curses, certain high level spells/potions, etc. The only limits are what you can think of, not what is limited by game mechanics (think potion of stoneskin).

Immortality is something that doesn't get touched on too often in game mechanics probably because it is a massive pain. As it stands right now, the only rule mechanics that a PC has to gain immortality are lichdom and possibly a carefully worded wish spell. Anthing else and every and I mean EVERY level 15+ caster would be immortal, rather than a few chosen NPCs.

Halaster, Maskar Wands, pre-dragon Vangy, Matron Baenre, and several other heavy hitters are (were) all mostly immortal and have gained their power through arcane, rare, and possibly immoral powers. In each case, immortality is something to be hoarded so you don't have to face down your immortal enemies or possibly passed to a favored ex-apprentice, not to be written down in a How-to for Jonny Lowbie to read.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
MarkusTay63 02-17-07, 07:09 PM	Recently someone was asking about Halaster's aparent immortality in This Thread. (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=763436) My brain works funny, and sometimes something will sit on the back burner slow-cooking, and then suddenly rush to the forefront with inspiration. Either that, or I'm just overly an@l-retentive. :D Anyway, In fantasy most wizards are immortal, or near-immortal. Gandalf, Merlin, Belgarath, Elminster, etc. In the Wheel of Time series, they explain that it is contact with the flows (magic) that causes this as a side-affect. I like this idea a lot, and it would explain quite a bit. I have postulated that raw primal magical energy, often times called Mana, is the same as the very stuff of life. That is why in 2e you had to give up ability points to make items, and in 3e you have give up experience. You use a little bit of your own 'life-force' to create these things. So, every time you touch the Weave, you siphon off just a wee bit of 'life'. In game terms, I would use the following rules - For every Spell level you are able to cast, you get to minus that many years of ageing from every ten years of time. So at 9th level you can cast 4th level spells, so for every ten years that go by the character would only age 6. This would progress all the way up to 18th level, when a caster is only ageing 1 year in 10! So if a Spellcaster hits 18th level at age 30, he will only look 80 years old when he is really 530. Now to progress this further, if you are able to cast epic spells, then you only get another 1/2 year shaved of, binging it to ageing 6 months every 10 years, or 1 year for every 20. Then, you would also get ANOTHER half year if you are a Chosen, meaning that you would NOT age at all anymore if you also were at least 18th level AND were able to cast epic spells. This would explain why people like El, Khelben, and the Shrinshee no longer age, and why less powerful people merely age slowly. I don't think this would really affect game balance, and in the long run would explain away much. Especially considering that potions of Longevity no longer exist; there is no need for them with this new rule. Also, if you notice, its always the Elven Mages who can resist the call to Arvandor for so long, another piece to the puzzle, although not as beneficial to them, I suppose. So what do you guys think? Is this a good rule to incorporate, or am I an idiot? :doh:
selunatic2397 02-17-07, 07:41 PM	Sounds good to me! In 1st edition you gave up points of constitution to cast permanancy on yourself and had a chance to lose a point if you cast it on a magic item... Your idea makes sense...although I have never had a PC die of old age yet... Die of violence, Yes, but old age, Never!
Stigger 02-17-07, 08:42 PM	Erm... Dove being one of Mystra's Chosen doesn't age much at all... might want to rephrase that little bit a little. Kinda explicitly states in the template that they don't age anymore... but I can see where you're going with it I suppose. Seems pretty logical really, with the exception of the Chosen thing. Though personally, I very much dislike the current system of magical item creation. I completely and utterly disagree that making a magical item would require an expenditure of experience or 'life-force'... it just makes absolutely no sense to my way of thinking. You're playing with magic, seeing how it interacts with the world around it... it makes no sense to me that you aren't learning from that interaction with it. I understand why those rules are in place, and the reasoning behind them, but I find the logic inconsistent with my own view of how things should work, so I obviously house rule that one. Not that magical item creation has anything to do with the thread... sorry, shutting up about it now.
MarkusTay63 02-17-07, 11:28 PM	Erm... Dove being one of Mystra's Chosen doesn't age much at all... might want to rephrase that little bit a little. Kinda explicitly states in the template that they don't age anymore... but I can see where you're going with it I suppose. Seems pretty logical really, with the exception of the Chosen thing.Good catch, Stigger. I changed it. Where are the Chosen templates? (please don't say F&P bacause thats one of the few I don't own). Do other gods chosen age? Cause if they do then I have to change more then a single name. Personally, I still like my way better, if someone was lucky enough to become a Chosen at level 1 they wouldn't age, which I think should only apply to the truly 'epic' Chosen, like Khelben or Elminster. The others should just get a boost. But whatever, I don't work for WotC unfortunately. :bored: I do agree that the current mage item creation system is a nightmare. I couldn't even figure out how to use it to create something new. Basically, you're on your own with that. I used to play a game system back in '79 that was extremely well thought out, logical, simple to implement, and you could create just about anything you cou imagine. The formula would even give you lists of material components, costs, time, etc... I can't for the life of me figure out why D&D can't get it right nearly thirty years later. They make it much more complex then it need be.
msatran 02-17-07, 11:32 PM	The only thing Halaster needs is 5 levels of Dungeon Lord, and he's golden. Pick up Dungeonscape. If ANYONE should have 5 levels of this class just thrown on his sheet, it would be the big H..
MarkusTay63 02-17-07, 11:38 PM	Your idea makes sense...although I have never had a PC die of old age yet... Die of violence, Yes, but old age, Never!Well, that was kind of the point. It really doesn't affect game balance, its more of an explanation of things. Unless he's a chosen, a mage will eventually have to figure out another way to cheat death, which is how it works anyway. The only thing Halaster needs is 5 levels of Dungeon Lord, and he's golden. Pick up Dungeonscape. If ANYONE should have 5 levels of this class just thrown on his sheet, it would be the big H..Sounds like one of my old favorite computer games, DungeonKeeper. It was soooo much fun to be the bad guy killing those nasty heroes :D
Stigger 02-18-07, 02:51 AM	Chosen of Mystra template appears on pg 247 of the FRCS actually... which I presume you have. Chosen of Bane template appears in F&P though. Just as a side note, Dungeon Keeper II was better than the first one, at least as far as I'm concerned. :P
Myssa Rei 02-19-07, 02:40 AM	Aside from the Chosen of Mystra, the other two Chosen templates (well, not really Chosen, but more like mortal 'Champion') officially printed -- that of Deneir and Bane -- don't list immunity to aging or any perceived longetivity in them, so it's very likely that their current holders (Cadderly and Fzoul) will die once their natural lifespans are up. Well, except Fzoul perhaps, as Bane has this nasty habit of turning his former 'Chosen' into Baneliches... As for Halaster, well, his apparent longetivity post-settlement on Mount Waterdeep has already been explained through his Undermountain Entrenchments... Which, by the way, cease working on him once he steps out of the Undermountain for any prolonged period of time (which happened in the Dungeon Crawl: Stardock adventure). He stays out long enough, and he'd probably die of old age. Ouch. Strangely enough though, if the hints here and there dropped by authors over the years are correct, then he's probably even older than that. At the very least, he's a surviving practitioner of the Imaskari ways of magic... Which, mind you, predates Netheril. Which means, pre-Undermountain, he's already been unknown enchantments (one of those things a DM could play around with) to prolong his life.
MarkusTay63 02-19-07, 05:00 AM	I know there ARE several in-game explanations - Halaster has Undermountain, Elminster is Chosen, Maskar wands drinks potions, Aumvor's apprentice Morasha's uses the Living Zombie spell, Larloch's got lichdom, Iuolum's a big ol' brain, etc... I was just trying to simplify it by saying "Wizards live longer because they use magic" and give a half-way plausable reason why that is so. I just hate having so many reasons to accomplish basically the same thing. Just as a side note, Dungeon Keeper II was better than the first one, at least as far as I'm concerned. :PI HATED Dungeonkeeper II! So did my kids, but we all loved DK1. They got rid of the best classes, the dragons (fighting AND spell research) and the 'crazy nakit black chicks (can't remember what they were called, just that they went around whipping everybody), and the 3D was chunky and ran like cr@p (early 3D usually did). I liked the sprite-based first game, much easier to make everything out. Just to point out - They came out with the first one (Bullfrog) and they made a fortune, they came out with the second one and went bankrupt a few months later. Thats why we never saw a DK3. I think you were the one person who enjoyed it. :(
Stigger 02-19-07, 05:01 AM	He's somewhere on the order of 5-6 thousand if he did indeed learn in the Imaskari empire itself... unless he learned from the Deep Imaskari maybe... but I kinda doubt that for some reason. Doesn't quite feel right.
Faraer 02-19-07, 03:07 PM	In the Realms, many wizards seek out new ways to hoard magic and unnaturally extend their own lives. Having longevity be a natural, automatic consequence of Art would seriously harm this major theme of the setting.
ZolDarklock 02-21-07, 12:16 AM	the point of constitution loss was for creating PERMANENT magical items, which I think permanent magical items need to take something to power them forever, and it kept any world with magic use from becomeing neck deep in magical items in a few years... come on guys every game world created is a joke with there magical item creation now, if them worlds were really that easy to create them, with no personal risk, then they would all be swimming neck deep in outrageously powerful magical items quickly
Morin 03-18-07, 08:42 AM	I know the point of this thread was about Halaster and Forgotten Realms Wizards, but Gandalf is not a mortal or immortal like the Elves, Men and Dwarves. He's a Maiar Spirit, which is much like a Demi-God or Arch-Angel. Where wizards refer to magic users in Dungeons and Dragons, Wizards, or otherwise known as Istari, in Lord of the Rings refers to the only 5 Maiars that travelled to Middle Earth in the 3rd age. If anyone wishes check these sources than read The Silmarillion.
Lykor 04-07-07, 01:32 PM	Lorewise, you have several options: lichdom, chosen of a diety, some curses, certain high level spells/potions, etc. The only limits are what you can think of, not what is limited by game mechanics (think potion of stoneskin). Immortality is something that doesn't get touched on too often in game mechanics probably because it is a massive pain. As it stands right now, the only rule mechanics that a PC has to gain immortality are lichdom and possibly a carefully worded wish spell. Anthing else and every and I mean EVERY level 15+ caster would be immortal, rather than a few chosen NPCs. Halaster, Maskar Wands, pre-dragon Vangy, Matron Baenre, and several other heavy hitters are (were) all mostly immortal and have gained their power through arcane, rare, and possibly immoral powers. In each case, immortality is something to be hoarded so you don't have to face down your immortal enemies or possibly passed to a favored ex-apprentice, not to be written down in a How-to for Jonny Lowbie to read.