Post/Author/DateTime	Post
allenchan 05-19-07, 08:03 PM	Im looking for general tips and suggestions on how I might go about running the Harpers as an opposing force to my PCs. I am expecting a lot of conflicts of interest and, not being knowledgeable about those who harp, want to get people's opinions on how they'd generally react/operate. :confused: Thanks!
The Ubbergeek 05-19-07, 08:47 PM	Well, since Harpers are good generaly, it's an evil PC game.... The Zentharim, thayans or such evil group would be implicated - the Harpers are usually only there for such big menaces.
allenchan 05-20-07, 12:14 AM	Well, since Harpers are good generaly, it's an evil PC game.... The Zentharim, thayans or such evil group would be implicated - the Harpers are usually only there for such big menaces. implicating evil groups? I really dont understand the point of your post.:confused:
msatran 05-20-07, 12:41 AM	He's saying that the PC's represent one force, and for whatever reason, the Harpers oppose them. I think he's talking about good vs. good. The problem is, because the Harpers have a tendancy to act in secret, this is very challenging. The trick is creating moral dilemmas which your PC's will see one way that are antithetical to the harper philosophy.
The Ubbergeek 05-20-07, 12:47 AM	good idea.
Francius 05-20-07, 12:15 PM	Since you say you don't have knowledge about who the Harpers are and how they operate, let me tell you that in general, those who Harp won't have any reason to oppose a party of PCs working towards a noble end - other than the one that may arise in the extreme case that the PC group has a drammaticaly opposed and extreme modus operandi other than those the Harpers use. Not that the Harpers dictate law on how to do good or act in a correct manner in the Realms, but since they are one of the most famous and elite groups of Faerun's protectors and their methods are for the vast majority of the times clear and direct (albeit hidden), then your party must have a method of working somehow odd and near the border line of initially next to incorrect to sequentialy re-directed, in order to cause the Harper's interference or even opposition. Otrher than that, if you want to use one of the Realms' evil factions for your PCs to confront with, choose one of the many true-evil ones: you 'd be surprised to see how many of them exist. The Harpers are a wild card in the hands of the good forces in the Realms - and be sure to buy in PDF form from Paizo the "Code of the Harpers" book (because it's long out of print). It's like gold. We Harpers exist to uphold the unwritten laws of good and justice.
The Ubbergeek 05-20-07, 12:42 PM	On a related note, there was a guy here who was a Purple Dragon Knight and he had a different take on the Harpers. ;)
Faraer 05-20-07, 12:46 PM	I am expecting a lot of conflicts of interest and, not being knowledgeable about those who harp, want to get people's opinions on how they'd generally react/operate. :confused:Read FOR4 The Code of the Harpers (http://paizo.com/store/brand/forgottenRealms/roleplayingGames/2ndEdition/v5748btpy7mjq) before turning to second-hand opinions.
Bolithio 05-20-07, 01:03 PM	One idea, perhaps you could play a jealousy/envy card. One of the PCs could become a member, and if he is able to move "up the ranks" quickly, another Harper, who may not be the most good hearted, could become jealous, and plot to discredit the PC. This could lead to all kinds of intriguing fun. Another one could be that the PCs on some adventure end up working for an enemy of the Harpers - though without realizing it. An agent of the Harpers witnesses some interaction between the PCs and the villain, and marks the PCs as enemies.
Francius 05-20-07, 01:17 PM	On a related note, there was a guy here who was a Purple Dragon Knight and he had a different take on the Harpers. ;) Oh yeah? I 'd like to meet him and learn of his opinion about us.
MarkusTay63 05-20-07, 01:38 PM	Basically, the Harpers are an organization of busybodies HATED by evil groups and disliked by all other soveriegn rulers. I can think of (and pointed out in that thread with PDK) several incidents where the Harpers came between the lawful authorities to save 'criminals' (Cormyr, Waterdeep) because they were useful to the Harpers. Think about it... the Harpers are a powerful clandestine group with their own agenda, why should ANYONE trust them? That was Purple Dragon Knight's take, and one that I myself am strongly inclined to favor. The Harpers WILL support a Tyrant, if they think the resulting chaos from the sudden lack of control in the region will result in even worse casualties. As in the case of Halaster, no one goes after him because in the long run he keeps Undermountain in check. And that, my friends, is what the Harpers are really about - maintaining the Status Quo. I feel strongly that that is the main reason behind the recent split with Khelben - many of the 'lower echelon' members were doing 'good' things that disrupted the longer range plans of those in charge. Khelben felt, IMHO, that a more disciplined approach was needed, with more control over the various 'operations'. This went against the traditionalists, who basically let their members do whatever they felt was right. The Harpers are still about doing good, but perhaps cause as much problems as they solve. Khelben's group (Moonstars?) look at the big picture, and manipulate events to achieve their results, rather then use force. A Harper may attack a Thayan Enclave to disrupt busines, but a Moonstar(?) would actually help their mercantile efforts, which in the long run would steer Thay further away from making aggressive moves against its neighbors. If Thay has more success controling economies, they may just give up military pursuits altogether. So, if you want to disrupt the Harpers, maybe let the PCs be hired by Khelben's people (un-benownst to them), with instructions to ruin their plans, but not harm them in any way. This will bring the PCs to the attention of the Harpers, who may begin watching them and try foiling their operations in turn. This whole thing could escalate into an ongoing ***-for-tat situation, until the leadership of the Harpers (and perhaps the Moonstars) steps in and realizes everyone is really on the same side (in the big picture).
GothicDan 05-20-07, 01:41 PM	I'm thinking Cloak and Dagger and Code of the Harpers would be some excellent resources to look into for really getting a feel on who the Harpers are.
MarkusTay63 05-20-07, 02:04 PM	Just remember that NO legitimate government is going to want them operating within their realm. Remeber when Israel 'accidently' sunk a U.S. warship for getting too close to its coast? No one wants to be spied on, not even by their allies. ;)
MerrikCale 05-20-07, 02:21 PM	So, if you want to disrupt the Harpers, maybe let the PCs be hired by Khelben's people (un-benownst to them), with instructions to ruin their plans, but not harm them in any way. This will bring the PCs to the attention of the Harpers, who may begin watching them and try foiling their operations in turn. This whole thing could escalate into an ongoing ***-for-tat situation, until the leadership of the Harpers (and perhaps the Moonstars) steps in and realizes everyone is really on the same side (in the big picture). all very good ideas. As he says, most sovereigns dislike the harpers are meddlers, even good ones. The characters could be perfectly nice people who are loyal to their ruler and need to oppose Harper plans for some reason.
Faraer 05-20-07, 02:23 PM	Just remember that NO legitimate government is going to want them operating within their realm.None will be comfortable with it. But Harpers often cooperate successfully with governments, such as Cormyr and members of the Lords' Alliance.
MarkusTay63 05-20-07, 02:29 PM	They appreciate the 'intelligence' that the Harpers provide them, but not Harper activities within their own realms. There is a passage in Elminster in Hell, where Elminster protects a noble considered a criminal be the Cormyr Crown, and Elminster basically 'bullies' Vanderghast into letting the guy go. The only explanation El gives is that the man has proven useful to the Harpers. The Harpers have done the same in Waterdeep, by allowing a man who MURDERED Lords of Waterdeep to go free! They may be occassionally appreciated, but they are barely tolerated in the 'good' realms.
Francius 05-20-07, 05:17 PM	My hatred burns for those who Harp. They work against me at every turn. And when I hear them Harp at twilight, my soul in me doth burn. ...Tuth Malgul, Tyrant Doompriest High of the Sun's Shadow Shrine of Mintar, from Chants to the Glory of the Deadly Dark Sun, Year of the Serpent Markus Tay, I think you're very biased and close-minded regarding the Harpers' organization. Methinks that you somewhat happened to have trouble against one of those who Harp during a showoff contest (getting surfed by such a character), or against the run for power and notoriety that permeates many Forgotten Realms players' attitudes and thus making you feel frustrated by their deeds and achievements.... or you're just one of them evil guys and so you turn against all forces of good. :P But these are just speculations by my part. Things could have gone a whole different way. Seriously now. I 'm going to reply you with some in-game character behavior and lines, since I myself have been a Harper agent for seven years. Your opinion about the Harpers is wrong from the very start since you say that no "legitimate government" is going to want them operating within their realm. Do you bear in your mind and realize that these are the medieval times we 're playing into? What form of "legitimate" goverment could there exist during this age and where is it to be found? The most common forms of government in the Heartlands are feudal monarchies, generally found in the larger realms and more isolated lands, and plutocratic monarchies, common among citystates and realms dominated by trade. In either case, a hereditary lord, king, monarch, or potentate holds the power to make laws, dispense justice, and manage foreign affairs. The monarch's power is checked to a greater or lesser degree by the powerful feudal lords or wealthy merchant princes who owe him allegiance. And guess what: The rural and common folk are supposed to accept this kind of "goverment" solely because it exists and its enforced by soldiers and man at arms - the most of the times (heck, always) simple people have no voice in the chapter other than accept the ruler and its "goverment"...oh, and pay the taxes to feed him and his soldiers after breaking their backs by working on the fields and the farms. These are dark times for Faerun: an age where tyrants and evil rulers supress the poor and ignorant civilization hiding behind the "legitimate goverment" prosonym, where monsters are multiplyinfg their numbers and stalk the nearby wilderness, whrere travelers and caravans are scared to death to travel unprotected, where religious factions hide their sinister plots behind an innocent image, where kings steal and opress and where death could lurk in the way form the local store to your home. Let's give respect where it's due, however. Strong and good thrones may be rare, but they do exist. The Cormyr of King Azoun Obarskyr was a shining example of the good that can come of a strong monarchy in the hands of a wise, just, honest and courageous leader. Unfortunately, the death of Azoun and the plague of evils that descended on that land have left Cormyr's fate uncertain. So: What can the regions or "goverments" do against this situations since from the surface it all seems so well organized and peaceful? What can the regions do when the lifes of poor farmers, crafters, workers, artisans, peasants, farmers and commoners is at risk outside the boundaries of the big, walled and shining city? What can the militia do in such occasions? Nothing. What these times need is individuals offering their services to the nation for free. Individual initiative for the greater good. The Harpers are an organization of many adventures combined into a single group instead of your typical four man party that the D&D game shows as an icon. You can say that the Harpers group can be formed by many good-willing PCs together. The Harpers are a ray of light during these Dark Ages and they work to make the lives of the lesser classes a tad bit better and safer. Don't tell me you don't have heard of Robin Hood and his merry men legend now do you? Above all, the Harpers do what they do demanding nothing in exchange - save for a hot meal and a bed to spend one night perhaps. Basically, the Harpers are an organization of busybodies HATED by evil groups and disliked by all other soveriegn rulers. I can think of (and pointed out in that thread with PDK) several incidents where the Harpers came between the lawful authorities to save 'criminals' (Cormyr, Waterdeep) because they were useful to the Harpers. The political system was ill, misfunctional and weak during the middle ages -and that is true. Perhaps today secret organizations who do good are not such a necessity since we've come a long way in developping a working (although not perfect) law system but during a dark age such as the medieval, such a Harper group was a life-breath. At their core, the Harpers are members of a secret society dedicated to holding back evil, preserving knowledge, and maintaining the balance between civilization and the wild. The Harpers bring down evil, act as scouts, report their actions to Elminster himself, help those in need and clear up monster lairs. The rare times they seem to help a criminal to avoid justice is because they have a greater plan: they probably need such an indiviadual as a bait, or as an informator and after they 've used him they give him back to the authorities. Why should ANYONE trust them? During the medieval times, one could not trust even his single shadow... So yes, the people should better trust and tollerate a tyrant or a ruler's existence who demands taxes to fill his enormous belly while having girls brought inside his palace to fill his time and all of this while sitting all day on his throne scratching his balls. That was Purple Dragon Knight's take (on the Harpers), and one that I myself am strongly inclined to favor. :rolleyes: The Harpers WILL support a Tyrant, if they think the resulting chaos from the sudden lack of control in the region will result in even worse casualties. As in the case of Halaster, no one goes after him because in the long run he keeps Undermountain in check. The Harpers will NEVER support a tyrant. As soon as the scene clears, they 'll bring him down under their sandals. They 'll sequentially choose a man of pure and right heart and put him on the throne at the old scum's place. And that, my friends, is what the Harpers are really about - maintaining the Status Quo. Actually, you do not use correctly the latin "status quo" term. The Harpers do not want to "keep the things the way they presently are". The Harpers want to change things for the beter. The Realms are crossing difficult and dangerous times - it's common logic that things need to change for a better tomorrow. The Harpers are still about doing good, but perhaps cause as much problems as they solve. No. Just no. They may seem to act in mysterious and not easy to comprehend ways, but at the end of the day, when your city is safe, you know you'll want to thank them. I 'll tell you more about it later on this post. Khelben's group (Moonstars?) look at the big picture, and manipulate events to achieve their results, rather then use force. Force is just one thing the Harpers use to deal with a situation. Other means of action include: diplomacy, clever acting, information gathering, intrigue and oh so many others... A Harper may attack a Thayan Enclave to disrupt busines, but a Moonstar(?) would actually help their mercantile efforts, which in the long run would steer Thay further away from making aggressive moves against its neighbors. If Thay has more success controling economies, they may just give up military pursuits altogether.[...] again: The Harpers are still about doing good, but perhaps cause as much problems as they solve. Falser words were never spoken in all of the Forgotten Realms! You seem to have a misconception about what the Harpers do and how they operate... The Harpers workings vary from such mundane and easy tasks to grand scale rescuing events. Everything is important to their group. Let's see what kind of work the Harpers do to justify their existence: -They work against a local ruling tyrant by weakening him down and make his true and scheming actions come to light thus rising the people of the land against him. -They work against, and must often fight, those of evil mind: the Zhentarim; the Cult of the Dragon that plunders the lore and art of the Realms to enrich their revered dracoliches; the slavers of Thay; those who plunder and willfully destroy tombs and libraries everywhere; and those who would overturn peace and unleash fire and sword across the land to raise their own thrones. -They seek to keep kingdoms small, busy with trade and the problems of their people. Any ruler who grows too strong and seeks to take knowledge and power from others is a threat. More precious knowledge is risked when his empire falls, as fall it must. -Harper agents slip into places that have fallen under the sway of various shadows:from the halls of kings to thieves' dens-and do all that one being can do to thwart the ruling evil. Not a few have given their lives. They send one person to slip in and do a job where an army couldn't go. -They guard caravans while carrying Harper messages and magical items among its more mundane cargo overland, fighting off two brigand groups and an orc raiding band on the way. -They learn from a superior that a large slave shipment (consisting mainly of the idle young of the prosperous merchant classes, smuggled out of Sembia in drugged slumber) is being assembled in tunnels under Westgate for shipment east to Thay. They let slip this information to a known spy for the Pirates of the Fallen Stars. The Pirates attack the ship, free the young and give them to the Harper agents in exchange for the information given to them and of course they keep the treasure. -They rescue a priestess of Tymora from robbery on the roads in Sembia, and conduct her safely to the nearest temple of her goddess. -Helped an elderly farmer fix his wagon and bring his grain in for milling. -Picked up messages from Harper agents in Battledale and Daerlun, and helped one of them spy on a suspected smuggler and slaver agent. -Spread rumors that a skeletal dragon had been seen flying over Archendale, in places where he knew Cult agents would hear-and warned some traders from Archendale that the Cult of the Dragon was planning a raid into their dale in the next few days. -Slipped into the mansion of a Cult agent (a rich merchant) and set traps on his cache of magical items. Then they stole some coins (to fund his own ongoing activities) and set fire to the place, knowing the merchant would make haste to rescue his magic. -Found the encampment of a Cult of the Dragon-sponsored raiding party who were planning an expedition into Myth Drannor.They reported this to elves in the woods. -Learned about a site of a serpent cult and invaded it.Saved 13 maidens from being sacrificed at the altar of a serpent god. Three Harpers died during this operation. -.....many other countless episodes of noble acting.... It's sad to read that some persons think the Harpers cause more trouble than good and are unnecessary to the Realms. Ingratitude is one of the worst kinds of behavior a person can exhibit. So, if you want to disrupt the Harpers, maybe let the PCs be hired by Khelben's people (un-benownst to them), with instructions to ruin their plans, but not harm them in any way. This will bring the PCs to the attention of the Harpers, who may begin watching them and try foiling their operations in turn. This whole thing could escalate into an ongoing ***-for-tat situation, until the leadership of the Harpers (and perhaps the Moonstars) steps in and realizes everyone is really on the same side (in the big picture). This is an era where the need of existence of a good organization working behind the scenes is high, since the political structure is collapsing or nonexistent and none has the power to individualy take on the corrupt system of government and its enforcing system. If you still have the gall to call a group such as the Harpers unecessary inside the Realms, I 'm sorry Markus, but for me, you 've missed a big portion of what the Forgotten Realms setting is about. You want to call us free? do. You want ot call us "law" breakers? By all means. Law is most of the times corrupt in these ages. Respect where respect is due, though. You want to call us chaotic in nature? Be our guest. But remember, fellow peasant, that tonight you can lie safe in your bed with your wife without fearing that a savage humanoid enters from the window of your cottage in the isolated locale you live just because one of us is staying awake near the monster's lair. The Harpers' modus operandi may be not 100% correct or accurate to some, but it's nonetheless pure and driven by the will to do good for no exchange. Call us saints? Maybe not, but we sure are altruists. So, after reading all of this text (penned by none other than the one and only ED) regarding the Harpers and how they put their lives on the line for others, it's an understatement to see how one falls in love with that group and seeks to join its ranks. This is what Epic Fantasy is all about. :cool:
Lady_Mhaor 05-20-07, 05:31 PM	:rofl: So harpers do have fangs *snickers* well thats one way to put it. My way would be that the harpers are annoying little peasants that should mind their own business. Annoying little vermin. The the lot of them.
Francius 05-20-07, 05:33 PM	So harpers do have fangs *snickers* well thats one way to put it. My way would be that the harpers are annoying little peasants that should mind their own business. Annoying little vermin. The the lot of them. :rolleyes: I feel for your "hiding underneath bridges" habit and your greenish color. :rofl:
Lord_Steve 05-20-07, 05:50 PM	:rofl: So harpers do have fangs *snickers* well thats one way to put it. My way would be that the harpers are annoying little peasants that should mind their own business. Annoying little vermin. The the lot of them. *thumps his chest in a salute* I heartidly agree with you Lady Mhaor(However you pronounce that) Bah! I'd root out all the harpers and slaughter the lot of them if I had my own way *evil laugh*
Francius 05-20-07, 05:52 PM	*thumps his chest in a salute* I heartidly agree with you Lady Mhaor(However you pronounce that) Bah! I'd root out all the harpers and slaughter the lot of them if I had my own way *evil laugh* Oh no. What is this? A Zhents' convention?
Lord_Steve 05-20-07, 05:55 PM	Nope, No Zhent....Just someone deeply annoyed with Harpers....Acting lilke little maggots, worming their way to the the hearts and souls of people and countries throughout the realms, eating away at the foundations of royal courts and justic systems.
Francius 05-20-07, 05:58 PM	Nope, No Zhent....Just someone deeply annoyed with Harpers....Acting lilke little maggots, worming their way to the the hearts and souls of people and countries throughout the realms, eating away at the foundations of royal courts and justic systems. Realize that some people are too young to comprehend what the Harpers do. Just like an infant who gets angry at his parents for not letting him stay out late at nights: it's for his own good, yet he does not understand it at the present. Once he's gained a few more years and experience though, he 'll see that it was all for his own good.
Alac Luin 05-20-07, 06:11 PM	One idea, early in their careers, the PCs get hired as caravan guards. This caravan is run by one of the Zents' fronts, so the PCs have no idea they are working for the Zents. Now, lets say this caravan is carrying something horrid, bad enough that the Harpers actually try to take action and try to stop this caravan. The PCs have no option but defend their charge. From this point on, the harpers may now see them as possible Zent agents. As the carer advances, PCs will be present at various trouble areas and seen by local Harpers, making a name for themselves. How would the harpers hinder the PCs? Dropping tips to local merchants and such, possibly forcing the PCs to deal with Red Wizard enclaves (at least to get best deals / value). Only patrols with less scruples may hire the PCs.
The Ubbergeek 05-20-07, 06:14 PM	The Harpers may be annoying good doers, but many of those so-called legitimate governements are at best interested autocracy and such other corrupted or non-democratic... So, it's like the pot calling the kettle black, to use the american saying.
sillaric_culdanin 05-20-07, 06:25 PM	Sorry, just a quick note... I was under the impression that this was a discussion forum, rather than an actual roleplaying forum. Answering a query from a DM looking for advice on running a game by saying that "I've been a Harper agent for seven years" isn't exactly helpful. He's asking as a real person looking for the advice of other real people (DMs most likely) to give honestly applicable bits of wisdom on running the Harpers as an antagonistic group in his/her campaign. Francius, one should not criticize another's comments as biased (even if they were, Markus ;)... but were very well written nonetheless) then go spouting off with a 12 paragraph or so rant about the many virtues of a group best known both in sourcebook lore and novels for being well-meaning meddlers. Now the question at hand, please get your hands on Code of the Harpers as Farear and others have said... its 2E but invaluable if running a Harpers-heavy campaign. The advice I would give you is that unless you are running an evil group (or grey area group) in service to an evil church or organization I wouldn't try pitting the party against the whole of the Harpers... the overall organization is CG I believe and values personal freedoms and as has been said, maintaining peace (or the status quo). The coolest part about the Harpers as a player or DM is how versatile a tool the group can be... Harper agents are some of the best solo agents in Faerun's intelligence world. I guarantee some if not many Harpers go through their lives with a "the end justifies the means" mentality, lying, cheating, stealing and often times slaying in ways that grossly violate the laws of the realm in which they are working. To a paladin these acts are reprehensible and worthy of imprisonment or death at the hands of a law-serving agent of the realm. Does this mean that these Harpers have an 'E' in their D&D alignment, probably not. They most likely do have at least a 'C' in it though. My advice, pit the party against a single Harper agent, or perhaps a small group of them attached to the area you will be running your campaign. If you want a good-vs-good campaign then try to guide your group into serving the local authorities (whether they're corrupt or not isn't imprortant in the beginning) who happen to foil a Harper break-in to a government building or maybe catch the Harpers trying to kidnap a powerful local merchant-lord (who, unbeknownst to the group worships Cyric, Talona or even Loviatar). Have fun with it... as Dan said try to get ahold of Cloak and Dagger if you can as well, its another priceless tome and keep in mind that the Harpers have been playing in the shadows for a rather long time and can match wits with the best that agents of the Zhentarim, the Red Wizards, the Twisted Rune and the Iron Throne can dish out. That's all, good luck with the campaign. Cheers!
Francius 05-20-07, 06:49 PM	Sorry, just a quick note... I was under the impression that this was a discussion forum, rather than an actual roleplaying forum. It is a discussion forum. What made you believe the contrary? Answering a query from a DM looking for advice on running a game by saying that "I've been a Harper agent for seven years" isn't exactly helpful. I 've already expressed my DM's view on the Harper's issue on post #6. My "I've been a Harper agent for seven years" quote was just a note. What I sequentially stated were clear facts about the Harpers group since the OP said he wasn't very knowledgeable regarding the Harpers. It was also an answer to Markus Tay's comments about the Harpers. It's strange however that you did not also say to him that the OP wanted info about how to run the Harpers against the PCs and not his opinion about them. Please don't tell me that the aforementioned quote was the sole thing that draw your attention from my post. Please. How can you say I wasn't helpful? Francius, one should not criticize another's comments as biased (even if they were, Markus ... but were very well written nonetheless) then go spouting off with a 12 paragraph or so rant about the many virtues of a group best known both in sourcebook lore and novels for being well-meaning meddlers. At least you agree with me that some of Markus' views of the Harpers indeed were biased. Well, the funny thing is that you say I should not criticize another's comments as biased and then you say that I "spouted" a 12 paragraph "rant". :rolleyes: So much for wanting to give an "advise".
sillaric_culdanin 05-20-07, 07:09 PM	Francius, I must apologize a bit, I just realized you were Italian... I took the rather passionate tone of your post to be 'ranting'. In retrospect if I try to look back on this discussion thus far through the lens of having had it with, my grandfather when he was young man (he was born and raised in Pisa and immigrated with his very young children, my mother included, when he was 30) I understand where I went wrong. Now, to tell the truth, I felt mostly that you were focusing on only a part of the OP's question (his lack of knowledge about the harpers in general) and not what I felt was the salient part of the question: how to use the harpers as his foil. I shouldn't have discounted your post, rather I should have pointed out my specific issue with it... Lastly, Markus is very biased on a large number of issues on the boards from what I've seen, as are you and as much as anyone so am I (well not as much as Dan... he's a lot like my brother actually... physics majors... sheesh!). That's all... I really didn't intend to offend and I'm sorry for doing so! **EDIT** I just reread Francius' post line by line and I must say that using his quote to define his post as I did in my first post really isn't inaccurate. Francius, your entire post is written as if you were a Harper and were writing a recruitment ad for a Waterdeep broadsheet. We all have things were are passionate about and I see that the Harpers represent one of those things for you, which I completely respect. I said that I would speak to my specific issue with post and I have done so... take care all!
Francius 05-20-07, 07:50 PM	Francius, I must apologize a bit, I just realized you were Italian... :rolleyes: I took the rather passionate tone of your post to be 'ranting'. :rolleyes: **EDIT** I just reread Francius' post line by line and I must say that using his quote to define his post as I did in my first post really isn't inaccurate. Francius, your entire post is written as if you were a Harper and were writing a recruitment ad for a Waterdeep broadsheet. Just some portions of it, mind you. By saying that it was a whole recruitment ad is a clear exageration. The rest of my post was about stating facts about politics in the middle-ages, Harpers' achievements and methods of working and finaly some answers to Markus Tay. I haven't any intention to recruit members in my group by force. I let them folks read who we are, what we do, how we fare and decide for themselves. ;)
Alac Luin 05-20-07, 08:51 PM	I'm glad I'm not the one making an apology.... I just wish I can stand to read the post in question in its entirety. What I did read appeared very one sided and offered nothing to the OP's question. If one fails to see the availability of the Harpers as an antagonist to a good aligned party is failing to accept the diversity of rolls the Harpers play in the Realms.
Lady_Mhaor 05-20-07, 08:55 PM	I'm glad I'm not the one making an apology.... I just wish I can stand to read the post in question in its entirety. What I did read appeared very one sided and offered nothing to the OP's question. If one fails to see the availability of the Harpers as an antagonist to a good aligned party is failing to accept the diversity of rolls the Harpers play in the Realms. they have their uses like weeding out the weaker members of a guild they're like tools for keeping the garden of evil free of weeds
msatran 05-20-07, 09:03 PM	Absolutely. If I were a bunch of Cormyreans, I would have ample reasons to keep the Harpers out. Let's say I'm Cormyrean Noble Bob. My alignment is Lawful Neutral. I do not support Alusair and that awful regency because it means that the government is in the hands of a crazy woman who beats up her boyfriends and has no interest in the balancing of the nobility, or protecting ME against MY political enemies. However, the Harpers support the crown. Therefore, the Harpers are my enemy, because I do not want them interfering in the politics of my nation, nor do I wish them to interfere in my machinations to get a stronger leader (Who is not me, that would be selfish, and I am a patriot first, even though I am Lawful Neutral.) There are others who have a stronger claim to the throne. I must take away the allies of the throne. Let's get the Harpers out of Cormyr. The motivation is PERFECTLY reasonable. The guy loves his country. He's doing it for the best of reasons. But...he's an enemy of the Harpers because he's a NATIONALIST. Fight that without killing him. Because killing him proves how RIGHT he is.
Lady_Mhaor 05-20-07, 09:10 PM	First if you cant change his mind you discredit him or better yet you cast suggestion on him and make him you political puppet. . . and gain some hold over him. . like a daughter or wife or where we going for the none evil way?
msatran 05-20-07, 09:18 PM	Well, see, there's a problem with that. This is Cormyr. The laws are harsh and rogues are persecuted. The kind of behavior you're talking about is easy to discover. We're talking about the things that make a campaign CHALLENGING to the players in it. You want to "Roleplay" on the boards? That's fine. But don't do it in a DM help forum. It doesn't HELP the guy.
Lady_Mhaor 05-20-07, 09:25 PM	Well, see, there's a problem with that. This is Cormyr. The laws are harsh and rogues are persecuted. The kind of behavior you're talking about is easy to discover. We're talking about the things that make a campaign CHALLENGING to the players in it. You want to "Roleplay" on the boards? That's fine. But don't do it in a DM help forum. It doesn't HELP the guy. Okay what are you talking about? cuz you lost me you gave a problem I gave you my solution to it and then you go off on a tangent about something. . . . you said nothing about making it challenging for players. . . u just asked how to change his mind without killing him if you want a through a b.f. be more specific first
msatran 05-20-07, 09:33 PM	The point is to present DIFFICULT challenges. Not "make a will save." Then the difficult challenge is not getting killed after he makes the will save. Do you really think the Crown doesn't protect it's nobles from enchantment influence by foreign powers? Cormyr is THE most civilized nation in the Realms in terms of government and military. While Halruaa has the finest air navy and a bizarre magical civilization, none can really match the might of the Purple Dragons backed up by the War Wizards. A lot of those War Wizards are devoted to preventing internal espionage.
MarkusTay63 05-20-07, 11:56 PM	Lastly, Markus is very biased on a large number of issues on the boards from what I've seen... Hey! I just try to give everyone a fair shake. The truth is... the real Dark of it, cutter... is that there is NO good or evil, only shades of grey. ;) A group that decides it is going to change things to better fit THEIR world view is not 'good', however well-intentioned; it is a self-delusional conceit that their way is best. I don't actually take sides, I just enjoy demonstrating that there are two sides to every coin. I could just as well argue that Gold Elves fart butterflies... :D @Francius -I don't have time to go over every point of your post, but this one item pretty much sits at the core of my point. -They work against a local ruling tyrant by weakening him down and make his true and scheming actions come to light thus rising the people of the land against him.Okay, let me get this straight. The Harpers, without ever being asked or invited, take it upon themselves to remove the lawful ruler of a realm and replace him with someone more to their liking? Hmmmm.... YOU may call those people revolutionaries, but I think of them as terrorists. The sovreign ruler of a nation should never need fear an outside organization, weather corrupt or not. Such behaviour leads to Anarchy. At the very least the Harpers are vigilantes; they will do what they think is right regardless of what the local law says. Unfortunately, that behaviour is considered ILLEGAL in every country of our REAL WORLD. And just for the record, I have never run afoul of the Harpers, but my players have, while acting as gaurds to a Caravan. The caravan was owned by the Red Wizards, un-benownst to my players, on its way to re-supply an enclave in the Moonsea region. The PCs were doing nothing wrong, and neither were the Thayans (at the time), but the Harper agents tried to stop the caravan after a tip that 'something important' was being brought to Mulmaster. I think I portrayed them accurately.
GothicDan 05-21-07, 12:19 AM	While Halruaa has the finest air navy and a bizarre magical civilization, none can really match the might of the Purple Dragons backed up by the War Wizards. I don't know about that... If I was to bet on the most powerful nation in Faerun, overall, I would probably put my money on Halruaa.
The Ubbergeek 05-21-07, 02:28 AM	Markus, lawfull and legal and the true rule aside, a tyrant is a tyrant. Hence, pot calls the kettle black. One man's terrorist may be a freedom fighter...
Old Sage 05-21-07, 03:50 AM	The Harpers are certainly terrorists/militants/freedom fighters in the looser sense of non-government-sanctioned users of violence for political purposes, although most of what they achieve isn't through violent means.
Khaelieth 05-21-07, 04:03 AM	Could have your PC's members of the Eldreth Veluuthra. Then you can be good to nymphs and bad to humans!
The WarOverlord 05-21-07, 11:08 AM	Im looking for general tips and suggestions on how I might go about running the Harpers as an opposing force to my PCs. I am expecting a lot of conflicts of interest and, not being knowledgeable about those who harp, want to get people's opinions on how they'd generally react/operate. :confused: Thanks! Well, If you ever played Baulder's Gate for the PC then you would know that at one point the Harpers try to kill your PC just because of the blood that runs through his/her viens.
Boda 05-21-07, 11:44 AM	It really depends on why do you stand against the Harpers. The reasons of a gent of a government(like purple dragon) are different that of a competitor(rundeen). But it will likely be a spygame more then anything. Note that in the intelligence world on the FR, it's not just good vs evil but also Chaotic vs Lawful. Harpers are a wild card, and very few like that.
MarkusTay63 05-21-07, 12:27 PM	Note that in the intelligence world on the FR, it's not just good vs evil but also Chaotic vs Lawful. Harpers are a wild card, and very few like that.Exactly so. Governments are about LAW, and ANYONE taking it into their own hands is under-mining the local authority, however good-intentioned. The CORRECT way to play the Harpers. IMHO, would to treat them like Robin Hood and his merry men. They are the champions of the weak, poor, and oppressed. Unfortunaetly, this makes the constabulary look like inept idiots in most cases, so the local mayor/sheriff/whatever would try to just give them a bag of gold after some heroic act, and 'shoo them' out of town as fast as possible. Also, the lower-level members are probably just bait to bring the real 'baddies' out of hiding. Then the higher-ups (elite Harpers) step in and take over. The lower echelons are expendable; but if they survive to like lev 10 or higher then they probably start getting 'assignments' rather then just going about all willy-nilly disrupting stuff. Also, most of the things Francius mentioned as things that Harpers take care of SHOULD BE left for PCs. If your PCs are harpers, then fine, but if they aren't (which they are not in most games) then the Harpers should not be hogging all the heroics from adventurers. Just my :twocents: What would ba an amusing scenario would be if the PCs and the Harpers were both trying to find information/stop a plot. The Harpers would have an agent on the inside, trying to disrupt 'the plan'. The heroes would come along and think the Harper was one of the 'bad guys', and begin to follow him. The Harper would catch-on, naturally, and then the fun really begins. The Harper would start getting nervous that his 'employers' are starting to suspect, and are having him followed. You can have TONS of fun with this set-up. ;) I was going for exactly that before my campaign got put on hold, except that the PCs were working for the bad guys (without knowing it). Hopefully I will get back to it after I get my players back over the summer; I love that Cloak-and-Dagger stuff. :D
Suncapcd 05-21-07, 01:31 PM	I think what many people miss is how fragmented the term "good" is. For example, the Catholic Church is considered "good", yet there are several instances in time that not so good acts have been preformed by this "good" organization. The settlers settling the American West were considered "good guys" yet their were numberous murders and estate takeovers in the name of "progress". The American Indian Tribes was a good example. Yet history will always show the American Settlers as the "good guys" against the "evil and savage Indians". So the Harpers may be an overall "good" organization but that doesnt mean they are above not so good acts to accomplish their goals. And who defines the goals? Who picks them? Does not personal agenda effect these people who define the goals?
Bolithio 05-21-07, 02:07 PM	And who defines the goals? Who picks them? Does not personal agenda effect these people who define the goals? The thing is, the Game mechanics define Alignment. As such, the examples of what was considered good in our real life world history, may not jive with the Game. If the Harpers were using some form of an inquisition, and torturing people that were deemed heretics into confessions, They would not be considered Good - in the Game.
Lord_Steve 05-21-07, 02:10 PM	Harpers = Anarchy Hmmmmmmm.....I'm begining to see the good in the Harpers....lol
MarkusTay63 05-22-07, 01:10 PM	A simple scenario: A group of humans settle along the banks of a river in the Silver Marches, near the mountains. They are a small village, of only about thirty people, with several children. A small child wanders away from the river bank where his mother is washing clothes and winds up in the woods/foothills nearby. A tribe of Orcs live up in the mountains, a group of only 40 or so. They ae well aware of the humans in the valley, but unlike most Ocs have learned that fighting humans usual gets them killed, so they have been steering clear of the new settlement. The child parts some bushes to find an Orc hunter gutting a deer he just killed. The Orc spins around (all bloody) and makes a scarey face at the child, and perhaps even yells "Oogey Boogey Boogey" frightening the kid back the other way. He has a good laugh ad goes back to his tribe. The humans find the child, all hysterical, and he describes the hideous bloody monsters in the hills. A local Ranger/whatever hears about it, and passes word along to the Harpers to investigate. A couple of Harpers show up, and one things lead to another, and the 'evil' Orcs are all slain. A good-aligned local Druid who was aware of the Orcs (and had warned them to stay away from the humans) is enraged, and sets about making things unpleasant for Harpers in the area. Perhaps the Druid asks the PCs for help, against a group of vile murderers? Whos the bad guy here? Just because the Harpers did what they felt was right doesn't actually make them right. The rule unfortuneatly, in FR, is that you are GUILTY until proven innocent. A Harper who doesn't know of Drizzt would probably attack him if he saw him near a farm or whatnot. "The road to Hell is paved with good intentions" ;)
msatran 05-22-07, 01:19 PM	As it is in most medieval societies. There's no difference between that and the twelfth century justice system in England. "Come forward, state the nature of the crime!" "My lord, I did not commit the crime!" "My lord, I saw him commit the crime!" "As did I" "As did I" "My lord, he could not have committed the crime, he was sleeping with my wife and I was beating him up.' "Is this true?" Three for, two against. Hang him. More and more often, people forget that the Forgotten Realms is an example of a feudal justice system. In the absence of divination spells, Guilty until proven innocent is the rule rather than the exception.
Bolithio 05-22-07, 01:22 PM	Whos the bad guy here? "The road to Hell is paved with good intentions" ;) No One. Your example is perfect for this topic. Everyone acts within their alignments and life goes on. Right or Wrong (from our out of character perceptions) should be irrelevant. We have too much pre-conceived judgment to through around which isn't based on FR morality.
Renvale999 05-22-07, 01:32 PM	The Harpers are certainly terrorists/militants/freedom fighters in the looser sense of non-government-sanctioned users of violence for political purposes, although most of what they achieve isn't through violent means. Before I say anything else Old Sage, let me say that 99.9% of time I completely agree with what you post... But I completely disagree with this one...now I haven't read EVERY single novel although I know the sourcebooks inside and out...but I've read enough to know that the Harpers use violence often and regularly...they're not above hiring adventures to take out some old tyrant..yes, maybe they didn't strike the killing blow, but their hands are just as bloody. The harpers will resort to violence just as easily as the zhents.
Burningspear 05-22-07, 04:57 PM	So, it's like the pot calling the kettle black, to use the american saying. Actually, it's not an american saying by itself, and probably does not even originate from your part of the world, as the English have it as well, and even we Netherlanders have it in our own language, "de pot verwijt de ketel dat ie zwart ziet", translated into my language it is exactly the same. not just you americans have such sayings in your o so wide vocabulary :P sorry to digress from the original posts subject..
MarkusTay63 05-22-07, 05:59 PM	Before I say anything else Old Sage, let me say that 99.9% of time I completely agree with what you post... But I completely disagree with this one...now I haven't read EVERY single novel although I know the sourcebooks inside and out...but I've read enough to know that the Harpers use violence often and regularly...they're not above hiring adventures to take out some old tyrant..yes, maybe they didn't strike the killing blow, but their hands are just as bloody. The harpers will resort to violence just as easily as the zhents.In Sage's defense (not that he needs my help), the Harpers, as a group, avoid violence and try to seek more serepticious means of altering events. A single Harper, on the other hand, is a whole different animal. If you read my above posts, I imagine at least two different layers to the Harpers (its been a while since I read the Harpers sourcebook), and the 'youngbloods' are basically allowed to do what they want in order to stir up the proverbial Hornet's Nests. The older, wiser Harpers take note of all the key players in any exchange, and find out who's really behind it all, and mark THAT PERSON for a personal visit by someone 'higher up'. This chaotic method of information gathering works in the Harpers favor, because without any type of centralized power-base (as far as anyone knows) it's hard to disrupt their activities like they do to others. So you are both correct, because there are layers within the Harpers that serve different purposes. Their system may not be the most effecient, but it is the most bullet-proof (metaphorically speaking). At least that is what I get from what I have read.
Renvale999 05-23-07, 10:00 AM	In Sage's defense (not that he needs my help), the Harpers, as a group, avoid violence and try to seek more serepticious means of altering events. a single Harper, on the other hand, is a whole different animal. If you read my above posts, I imagine at least two different layers to the Harpers (its been a while since I read the Harpers sourcebook), and the 'youngbloods' are basically allowed to do what they want in order to stir up the proverbial Hornet's Nests. The older, wiser Harpers take note of all the key players in any exchange, and find out who's really behind it all, and mark THAT PERSON for a personal visit by someone 'higher up'. This chaotic method of information gathering works in the Harpers favor, because without any type of centralized power-base (as far as anyone knows) it's hard to disrupt their activities like they do to others. So you are both correct, because there are layers within the Harpers that serve different purposes. Their system may not be the most effecient, but it is the most bullet-proof (metaphorically speaking). At least that is what I get from what I have read. I agree, I'm not saying it's a bad thing that the harpers use violence, personally I'd like them to take a more active role and put a few more bad guys to the sword...
MarkusTay63 05-23-07, 06:21 PM	Think of the Harpers the way real world detectives work. They don't bust all the low-level drug-dealers, pimps, and hoods, they leave them on the streets so that they can score bigger fish. So the younger harpers act like beat-cops, policing the neighborhoods and knocking in a few heads occassionally, but the whole time the detectives are watching all the players and see whos running to who. Taking those guys down will have a long-term effect, and thats what the Harpers really want. Thats why you don't see the Harpers putting too many folks to the sword, they want to know who the level 7 Red Wizard is reporting to. This way the 'Khelben-types' can call on him later. ;)
Renvale999 05-23-07, 07:42 PM	Think of the Harpers the way real world detectives work. They don't bust all the low-level drug-dealers, pimps, and hoods, they leave them on the streets so that they can score bigger fish. So the younger harpers act like beat-cops, policing the neighborhoods and knocking in a few heads occassionally, but the whole time the detectives are watching all the players and see whos running to who. Taking those guys down will have a long-term effect, and thats what the Harpers really want. Thats why you don't see the Harpers putting too many folks to the sword, they want to know who the level 7 Red Wizard is reporting to. This way the 'Khelben-types' can call on him later. ;) Agreed, that's a good way of putting it Markus.
godbeepit 05-23-07, 09:03 PM	Ahem, ignoring the long debate over whether Harpers are honorable or not, there have been several good ideas for running a game where those who Harp are the antagonists. What you will have to remember is that Harpers tend towards good ends mostly for commoners and the lower ranking status members (I think... I might just be stupid). Now then, if your PCs happen to be good-aligned it can be very difficult to pit them against the Harpers in the first place, let alone worrying about the Harpers actions taken against them. However, it seems you ask for help regarding aforementioned actions. The Harpers are, as stated earlier, a secret organization. As such, the Harper who finds his target walks up to him in the middle of Suzail (or similar metropolis) and shouts 'I am Harper, hear me roar!' won't be a Harper for much longer. It should take the PCs awhile before they even realize that those opposing them are in fact the Harpers. Also, the Harpers are a loose-knit organization (again I might just be stupid, bear with me) and as such they won't be able to readily call upon a regiment of 50 high level Harpers to come down upon them in the middle of a forest. They often work alone and without a direct line of command from Elminster to your informant farmer. Therefore, discovering one Harper will not necessarily reveal the locations or even the identities of his companions. Again, I might just be stupid. Forgive me?
The_Shaman 05-24-07, 05:37 AM	You know, you could have a campaign in which the antagonist need not be put to the sword. Particularly with cloak-and-dagger campaigns, to foil your opponent's plans might be much more important than killing a few agents. It could be that the Harpers - knowingly or not - are destabilizing a country, or supporting a wrong candidate, etc. It could be that one of the grander plans has unpleasant side effects for a local community that you happen to be a member of. As the (afaik) saying goes, when the stallions fight, the donkeys get kicked - and when the harpers and the zhents, or thayans, or the Dark Sun cult duke it out, there may be additional casualties. It could be that they don't care, or don't know. The same decentralization that makes them hard to put down can allow an unscrupulous and skilled villain to lead them by the nose - whether by posing as the better candidate for the throne or just as a partner or agent. In that case, opposing him overtly or covertly would probably lead to tangling with the Harpers.
Lord_Madrigan 05-25-07, 10:52 PM	Harpers: And the Culprit is(dispels illusion)... Vangerdahast! Vangerdahast: And I would have gotten away with it, if it wasn't for you meddling Harpers. There are times I feel the harpers have be reduced to this.