Post/Author/DateTime	Post
TionneDawnstar 11-01-05, 10:19 PM	My group is playing City of the Spider Queen and I was wondering if anybody had actually made it through, and what kind of party it was. Right now we have a Drow Evoker, Ranger/Judicator and cleric rogue of Vhaeraun. I wanted to know if any surface races had actually beat Irae. Because as drow, our party is pretty hard pressed. We are all 14th level and about to take on Kurgoth. Any suggestions?
Silverpanther 11-02-05, 02:10 AM	suggestions? for 3 guys guys lv 14 trying to take on the hellbreed? mmh... run for your live :confused: serious... i think that`s too low :weep:
Aphrella 11-02-05, 07:00 AM	how about diplomacy? That's how my two gestault characters got past him... skipped everything I planned too :mad:
TionneDawnstar 11-02-05, 09:52 AM	We are running geshalt too... well two of the three... the thing is, we already took out the balor general, which is a higher CR then Kurgoth. It's mostly the wizard (who isn't geshalt) and his area of attack spells. I mean we wiped out everything on the Noble Plataeu (including two vrocks) with only a small amount of damage to the cleric and fighter. With the balor, the wizard knocked him down with enervation twice then we turned him to glass (Dhurlark's Glass Strike). Then a Shatter later he was pieces... though we did get pretty beat up in the process... And being evil drow... I doubt Kurgoth will talk to us... just a guess... yikes...
GodwinX 11-02-05, 03:55 PM	I ran City of the Spiderqueen but the PC's never did make it to Maerimydra. The party was defeated by the Mindflayer in the Lich's Mire. 3 of the PC's ended up becoming mindslaves to the Mindflayer and a PC and my NPC with them got sucked into the astral plane when they were taking inventory of a dead PC. My sig has the party journal for those that wish to read. Needless to say that Irea won and captured several dales. Next game i'm running will get the new PC's to correct what the last ones failed to do.
Thaingrim 11-02-05, 07:03 PM	well , seems your party 's kinda ow level to match up kurgoth and his palls.... we ware up to lvl 16 when we het that stage ( mostly drow , i played a vhaeraun worshipping arachnomancer :p , we had 2 assassin/ shadow dancers, 1 weapon master/disciple of dispater, 1 duergar with a homebrew of dwarven defender PRC , and a cleric af vhaeraun)...for us the end was kinda dissapointing ( a pushover really) ... but your party is quite smaller and weaker... so i guess you'll have to maybe add some subplot or storyline to fil the gap..
TionneDawnstar 11-02-05, 09:00 PM	We beat Kurgoth today... actually it was really easy. We banished him actually. He was an outsider and our cleric rolled well. We won init so there was like no challenge at all. Rather disappointing. But our party does that, sneaks in, with a plan and we execute it well. The DM was pretty depressed we came up with such a plan. We do however, need to go kill some more stuff, because we did level, but we can't go up against Irae this low... lol
Silverpanther 11-03-05, 01:31 AM	you know that your DM will bring him back, with some DM-typical item that prevents him from being banished again, and of course he will return just at the moment when it will be the worst time for that because you are batteling some other tough badasses... you`re screwed ;)
TionneDawnstar 11-03-05, 01:38 AM	No actually our DM plays by the rules and already tried to figure out a way for him to come back and couldn't. He doesn't do that meta game stuff, so if they can't get someone to plane shift or gate him back, then he's screwed. Plus his will saves suck... it was a piece of cake to do it once...
ClobberinTime 11-03-05, 09:23 AM	How did you guys know he was a half-fiend, high know arcana check???
TionneDawnstar 11-03-05, 09:51 AM	Knowledge Planes, and we also made friends with the Unseen ones that know most of what's going on in the city. We got really high diplomacy rolls, plus we have a vhaeraunite in the party so that helped. They gave us info and we gave them some of our mild magic items, mostly armor from the Kuo Toa we killed. They were so happy they told us everything! Oh yeah... we tortured a fire giant we captured and he called him the Hell Spawn. That's how we got on the trail that he wasn't normal. Then with our gathering of information and scrying (which always went through hence the reason we figured we might be able to banish him) we figured it out. It took awhile, but was way worth it!
PJSlavner 11-03-05, 11:56 AM	No actually our DM plays by the rules and already tried to figure out a way for him to come back and couldn't. He doesn't do that meta game stuff, so if they can't get someone to plane shift or gate him back, then he's screwed. Plus his will saves suck... it was a piece of cake to do it once... Assuming you are playing 3.5, your DM did not play by the rules when he allowed Kurgoth to be banished. Banishment only works against extraplanar creatures, and half-fiends are native outsiders.
ClobberinTime 11-03-05, 01:16 PM	Odd though, the spell banishment refers to the spell dismissal in describing the targets of the spell, and all that says is 'extraplanar' which is kind of vague. I could have sworn I read somewhere that banishment and dismissal on an Outsider(native) sends the creature somewhere else on the same material plane, or maybe some other material plane for that matter. Can't remember where though maybe Races of Faerun (which I know is 3.0, but is closer to 3.5). Now one might assume that anything that is an Outsider is inherently extraplanar in some sense.
PJSlavner 11-03-05, 02:15 PM	Odd though, the spell banishment refers to the spell dismissal in describing the targets of the spell, and all that says is 'extraplanar' which is kind of vague. I could have sworn I read somewhere that banishment and dismissal on an Outsider(native) sends the creature somewhere else on the same material plane, or maybe some other material plane for that matter. Can't remember where though maybe Races of Faerun (which I know is 3.0, but is closer to 3.5). Now one might assume that anything that is an Outsider is inherently extraplanar in some sense. Extraplanar is not vague at all. It is a well-defined term within the game. As per the Monster Manual glossary, it is a subtype that any creature has applied to it when not on its native plane. All outsiders when on the Material Plane either have the extraplanar subtype or the native subtype, but not both. Those that have the native subtype either have mortal ancestors or have a strong connection to the Material Plane. Besides half-fiends, other examples of native outsiders are rakshasas and aasimars.
Mookie37 11-03-05, 02:20 PM	So what does happen to a native outsider when it gets Banished? I don't have my books with me, so I can't check.
PJSlavner 11-03-05, 02:36 PM	So what does happen to a native outsider when it gets Banished? Because a native outsider is an invalid target, the spell fails. Because the caster would know if a save were failed, or if spell resistance were a factor, the caster knows the spell failed for a different reason (in this case, an invalid target, although the caster would have to figure out that part on his own).
ClobberinTime 11-03-05, 03:00 PM	Yep, your right alright, most demons are listed as Outsider(Chaotic, Evil, Extraplanar) Half-Fiends are just plain Outsider(Native), not even Outsider(Evil, Native), boy the worlds rangers are going to have a fit with that one.
Muddman 11-03-05, 03:56 PM	We got through the City of the Spider queen We had a paladin, a fighter, a cleric and a ranger. We stomped through it quickly too! I think we started at 14lvl and moved up from there. The best part was that the last week two of the characters (the cleric and the ranger) weren't able to make it, so me (the paladin) and the katana weilding fighter pressed on. We went through half the module in one night, just indiscriminantly killing everything we faced, gaining levels like crazy! I turned the orb wraith (rolled a nat 20) and then we threw down with Irea (we were 18 level). Killed her in like 5 rounds of full attacks (and some exceptionally lucky rolls) The only thing we had to run from was the advanced iron golem with the walls of fire. We bailed on that, drawing him into the room and bolting through the portal. We weren't gestault either :)
TionneDawnstar 11-03-05, 08:40 PM	PJSlavner... thanks for being rude. Now I remember why I stopped coming here. To everyone else, thank you so much for replying as long as you weren't sarcastic. My DM never said were he was banished, but every spell that affects outsiders affects native outsiders. It says so in the FRCS. So I don't know where he went, but he got sent there. Muddman: I got an answer to my question... thank you! See we started at 8th level since we were drow... damn that ECL. So now we just it 15th level, so I think we're in for a really tough fight with Irae.
dragonheart 11-03-05, 09:29 PM	odds are he got sent to his other center of action - the mines of Tethyamar to teh NW of hte dales on the edge of Anauroch and as said in one of the first posts will be back (with a vengence) just when you need it least. :D
dragonheart 11-03-05, 09:36 PM	I had a party get through easily as well but it was really unfair - the lead character had already taken Teshendale and Zhentil Keep away from the Zhentarim and was well into epic levels. he brough along a large group (over 10) of high level (15+ECL starting) characters just to make sure that things went his way. not much leveling but it definitely cleaned out all the problems. they ended up destroying Irae and Kurgoth, looting the hidden levels of the temple of Lolth and recovering the art blade of Cormanthor amoung other items/artifacts and then clearing the mines as an after thought. just a very different way to run a campaign for a change :P
PJSlavner 11-03-05, 10:44 PM	PJSlavner... thanks for being rude. Now I remember why I stopped coming here. To everyone else, thank you so much for replying as long as you weren't sarcastic. My DM never said were he was banished, but every spell that affects outsiders affects native outsiders. It says so in the FRCS. So I don't know where he went, but he got sent there. I apologize for being rude. I did not mean to be, and I could have phrased my post in a better manner. I thought that one of the purposes of this forum is to learn things, and I was just trying to inform others, and have them not misuse a spell. I have made many errors in this game, and I welcome it when someone from one of these forums helps me to understand the correct way to apply the rules. I have looked in my FRCS, and I could not find that part about the spells affecting native outsiders like they affect other outsiders. Can someone please let me know where that is. I still think I have the correct interpretation of banishment in 3.5, because the FRCS is written using 3.0 rules, and I believe that the native subtype was not in 3.0 rules. If I am incorrect in that belief, please let me know.
Kuje31 11-03-05, 10:53 PM	I apologize for being rude. I did not mean to be, and I could have phrased my post in a better manner. I thought that one of the purposes of this forum is to learn things, and I was just trying to inform others, and have them not misuse a spell. I have made many errors in this game, and I welcome it when someone from one of these forums helps me to understand the correct way to apply the rules. I have looked in my FRCS, and I could not find that part about the spells affecting native outsiders like they affect other outsiders. Can someone please let me know where that is. I still think I have the correct interpretation of banishment in 3.5, because the FRCS is written using 3.0 rules, and I believe that the native subtype was not in 3.0 rules. If I am incorrect in that belief, please let me know. They are right, the FRCS under the Planetouched races on page 18 does say that native outsiders can be banished. However, this makes no sense since they are native outsiders of Toril since they have lived there for a long time so basically if you banished a planetouched that is native, and living on Toril, you send it back to Toril? I guess they meant that passage to mean that if you find a Torilian planetouched on the other planes and banish it, it sends it back to Toril. Plus the planetouched aren't extraplanar when on Toril. :)
Silverpanther 11-04-05, 12:53 AM	okay, where does stand that the artblade can be find in cotsq? lost epires? because i already heard that some times but couldn`t find it
ClobberinTime 11-04-05, 08:15 AM	No guys, Slavener is right, the FRCS is 3.0 and the rules for banishment were updated in 3.5. The FRCS is where alot of people got their information about banishment, but the spell and the monster description pretty clearly say that the rules have changed for 3.5. I was kind of surprised too, because I had just read that bit in the FRCS. Anyone got a 3.5 source for banishment working on Outsider(native)????
ClobberinTime 11-04-05, 08:18 AM	The Module CotSQ doesn't tell you where is. Lost Empires was published after the players guide, and that says it was last known to be in Maerdrmyra. If I were going to run that module now, I would send the players after the war-blade in Maerdrmyra, and surprise them with the state of the city.
Seraphim of Night 11-27-05, 12:57 AM	It is in Lost Empires in the back section that describes the 3 elf-blades of Myth Drannor. I don't remember which one it said was down there, but I believe it stated it was under the Temple of Lolth in Maerimydra. I have read that section, and unless I am missing something I saw no mention of it in the Campaign. I wonder if we should include it? :schemes: We actually had our first death the session before last when my 10HD aurak was slain by the Keening Spirit of Lolths Preistess. He had spectacular death throes, so he almost took out the group who never even knew what he was :devil:
Dargoth 11-27-05, 05:00 AM	Ran City of the Spider Queen today and almost had a TPK The party consisted of the following A Cleric of Tempus A Fighter/ Divine Champion of Tempus (clerics Cohort) Human Fighter Dwarven Ranger/Prime Underdark Guide Human Sorcerer All bar the Divine Champion where 11th level We'll we started off today with the battle against Dorina and while they completed the battle without fatality, when they found Dorinas coffin the fighter triggered the Blade barrier trap on it which killed him, he only 10hps left from the fight with Dorina and I rolled up 54hps of damage. I told him that his character had just found out what it would feel like to fall into the whirling blades of a Combine Harvester So with one character down they decided to go up to the Spider shapped Temple of Lolth above House Morcane, where they ran into the Banshee (Keening Spirit) on her first round she wailed and the Dwarf, the Sorcerer and the Cleric all failed their saves and died The Cohort eventuall wore the Banshee down and defeated her..... Things are not looking good for the good guys!
Seraphim of Night 11-27-05, 06:57 PM	I just want to correct myself in my earlier post. The Lost Empires of Faerun does not say that the Warblade is in a secret vault under the Temple of Lolth in Maerimydra in the back detailing magic items and artifacts, but it does say that under the adventure seeds section of Myth Drannor. :bounce:
Chosen of Bane 11-28-05, 10:53 AM	...However, this makes no sense since they are native outsiders of Toril since they have lived there for a long time so basically if you banished a planetouched that is native, and living on Toril, you send it back to Toril?... This reminds me of in "Beyond the High Road" when Vangy tries to banish a gazneth and it banishes it to reappear in just about the same place. Almost like the spell sucked it out of toril and then spit it right back. I know that novel situations do not explain game mechanics but this is what it reminded me of.
Monsoon28 11-29-05, 08:46 AM	Ran City of the Spider Queen today and almost had a TPK The party consisted of the following A Cleric of Tempus A Fighter/ Divine Champion of Tempus (clerics Cohort) Human Fighter Dwarven Ranger/Prime Underdark Guide Human Sorcerer All bar the Divine Champion where 11th level We'll we started off today with the battle against Dorina and while they completed the battle without fatality, when they found Dorinas coffin the fighter triggered the Blade barrier trap on it which killed him, he only 10hps left from the fight with Dorina and I rolled up 54hps of damage. I told him that his character had just found out what it would feel like to fall into the whirling blades of a Combine Harvester So with one character down they decided to go up to the Spider shapped Temple of Lolth above House Morcane, where they ran into the Banshee (Keening Spirit) on her first round she wailed and the Dwarf, the Sorcerer and the Cleric all failed their saves and died The Cohort eventuall wore the Banshee down and defeated her..... Things are not looking good for the good guys! :evillaugh :evillaugh :evillaugh :evillaugh Oh that is priceless!
ClobberinTime 11-29-05, 02:04 PM	One more thing, there is a Monte Cook module in Dungeon that contains an excursion to the demonweb pits. I always thought that would be a cool place to put the Warblade with a portal to the abyss. The only problem is the story line, there some slad are invading the demonweb, and Loths Clerics are defending/still have their powers, It really nerfs the encounters too much to take away the spells of the Spider Clerics.
Jefuri no Oni 11-30-05, 01:44 AM	I ran this adventure for a party of 3 adventurers. One was a human fighter that took the roll with it feat from savage species a lot of times. One was a thieving little bastard gnome rogue, and the third and most min maxed of them all was a kobold wild shaping druid with a nasty dire tiger damage machine for an animal companion. They ended the adventure at level 22. I had a pretty well min maxed party all of whom were built on 32 points so I had to increase the level of intelligence and team work among the major NPC's (I don't like to beef up NPCs in a module too often, that creates a snowball of work). The only time I beefed up an NPC (although I did restat a couple of them) was when they fought Irae, and that was because they were level 22 at the time. My version of Irae gave them quite a run for their money. Surfice to say, they managed to stop the day of Great Revenance.
ClobberinTime 11-30-05, 01:29 PM	One of a key from a DM's point of view is to play the villains smart, in this module the key is saving throws. The poisoned darts, bolts target the mages, the will save spells target the fighters, and the reflex the clerics. Since in many encounters there are way more drow than PCs they should be pretty effective. The other Key is that once the PCs are in the castle the defenders don't just sit in their rooms and wait to die. There are only two or three ways up through the higher levels of the castle, and the Drow would gather there for a final defense. Also the PCs must not be allowed to dispel the forbiddance spell, i.e. Irae must be higher level than the highest level PC caster.
Pandemonium 12-01-05, 03:33 PM	On that note about forbidance... how do you take into account that 3.5 version no longer stops physical access? Sure the pc's still have to find the pass word to avoid gobs of damage but kinda makes the whole seige idea slightly pointless as our friendly balor general could easily make the occaisional foray into the castle for short periods of time to thin the ranks. As well as all sorts of other mayhem too numerable(?) to mention.
ClobberinTime 12-01-05, 04:36 PM	You might want to make it a mini-mythal, just make sure Iraes levels stack to level 21 and she has the epic spellcasting feat. I thought the Balor was on the side of the Drow, but it is on the side of Kurgoth? Also, Maybe just maybe Kurgoth is smart enough to know that if he tries to get into the castle and gets weakened the drow counter attack would devastate him.
Pandemonium 12-01-05, 06:24 PM	Under "Winged Terror" Maermydra encounter: Badrazel Kurgoth's chief lieutenant and personal fixer. Also K. is int:14 with no spellcraft and as indicated in the Mod. has already tried to storm the Castle. Has anyone noticed this and thought of a fix for 3.5?
ClobberinTime 12-02-05, 01:35 PM	Your right about the Balor, I still say make Irae 21st level with access to epic magic, that makes more sense from a story viewpoint as well since her greater Revenance spell would be an epic spell, plus the PCs are supposed to be around level 18 at the end of the adventure, so the BBEBG should be total level around 22 for an epic confrontation. Plus that also makes the 'mythal/forbiddance' near undispellable.