Hell/Abyss in Forgotten Realms [Archive] - Wizards Community

Hell/Abyss in Forgotten Realms [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Burpcycle
07-09-06, 10:51 PM Do the Hells and the Abyss work the same in FR as the default setting? I mean, is Asmodeus and all his friends harassing Faerun as they harass Oearth? Same with the Abyss?
I know Graz'zt exists in FR, having kidnapped Waukeen, but I've never seen the other ones mentioned at all outside of NVN and BGII.
GothicDan
07-09-06, 11:34 PM Yes they do. There are references to archfiends in the FRCS, the PGtF, Elminster in Hell, Unapproachable East, etc. The list goes on and on.
TomCosta
07-10-06, 01:17 PM GothicDan is absolutely right. There are a few minor differences here and there -- a careful read of Elminster in Hell will bring up a few IIRC, but most, if not all, are so minor as to be ignorable by most.

For some the one exception might be a few of the challenges in reconciling the history of Orcus for the Realms, although that said, I am not one of those some. Similar issues arise with Tiamat's and Bahamut's history, but these challenges are as much about inconsistencies and previous changes between editions as anything that exists since 3E came out.
Kaewin
07-10-06, 06:31 PM Does Bahamut exist in the Realms? If so where is he? I don't remember seeing him mentioned, of course I could be wrong.
Shemeska the Marauder
07-11-06, 11:53 AM Do the Hells and the Abyss work the same in FR as the default setting? I mean, is Asmodeus and all his friends harassing Faerun as they harass Oearth? Same with the Abyss?
I know Graz'zt exists in FR, having kidnapped Waukeen, but I've never seen the other ones mentioned at all outside of NVN and BGII.

Largely the only differences are an artifact of 3e FR randomly plucking itself out of its previous cosmology (it was part of the Great Wheel, the default 3e cosmology, from first print up till a few years ago). No explanations for the change were given in game, it just happened, is assumed to have always been that way, and thus far no attempt has been made to address the continuity issues this brings up for pre-3e sources on the realms that address the planes (and 3e books are peppered with references to planes that technically aren't supposed to exist in FR now, where various authors usually by accident, referenced older FR planar lore).

That said, the Abyss and Baator are virtually the exact same in the new cosmology, but the Gray Waste, Gehenna, and Carceri have been mishmashed together, and the unique yugoloth lords have been renamed (Anthraxus to Inthracis, General of Gehenna to Kexxon) along with some of their homes (Gehenna's furnace of Khalas becomes Calaas in FR).

There are some very minor differences from the default in the novel Elminster in Hell, but those are more Ed Greenwood sticking with his vision of Baator from the 70s, rather than the current Baator as it has evolved since he wrote his stuff for very early Dragon magazine.

Now if you use the planes heavily in your campaign, and this is my sincere advice, you might want to stick with the material from the default/Great Wheel cosmology since it's much more detailed, more open to mortal interaction, more based on being the manifestations of abstract ideas then as the backyard of specific deities, and the differences between the default and 3e FR's notions can be a nightmare unless you're willing to just gloss over them.
TomCosta
07-11-06, 12:55 PM Bahamut has a very convuleted history (as does Tiamat) in general, but also more specifically in the Realms. He played a major role in the early 2E module H4 wherein King Gareth Dragonsbane of Damara slew Tiamat (or some version of her). He also appeared as a non-godly version of himself in the original 2E and Realms-specific Draconomicon. Since then, he may have popped his head up here and there, but I suspect his existence will be addressed in the forthcoming Dragons of the Realms. That said, there is an exhaustive thread on Bahamut on these boards here: http://boards1.wizards.com/archive/index.php/t-410060.html
ericlboyd
07-11-06, 02:44 PM FWIW, I've tried to partially address both these questions (role of the Platinum Dragon in the Realms and how the Nine Hells work for the Realms) in "upcoming stuff".

I'll leave it at that for now, but I think you'll have more info before the end of the year.

--Eric
Irav222
07-11-06, 03:52 PM I still have an old forgotten realms solo adventure called "Knight of the Living Dead". In it you play an undead paladin(fallen paladin risen by a lich to find the pieces of the staff of waterdeep). Waterdeep and the surrounding area has been put under somoe sort of mass sleep spell and all the areas undead are going to waterdeep collecting magical items and going beneath the city and melding into a huge undead construct. The liches are serving under Orcus but, plan to betray and defeat him (hense your quest to find the artifact for them). There is a lot more to it but, it seems Orcus has a strong following in the realms.
Kaewin
07-11-06, 07:23 PM Thanks I had wondered about him with the felldrakes and all.
Gray Richardson
07-12-06, 02:13 AM One minor difference with the Abyss of the Realms is that Jubilex does not have a presence in the Realms, and presumably does not live in the Realms Abyss.

Ghaunadaur answers to the name Jubilex as one of his aliases. Either because Jubilex never interloped into the Realms, or more probably because Ghaunadaur at some point defeated the Realms aspect of Jubilex and absorbed his essence and his worship.

I suppose however that Ghaunadaur could manifest a Jubilex avatar on occasion, or an "aspect of Jubilex" (a la Miniatures Handbook or the FC1 Web Enhancement), so some people may believe that Jubilex has a presence in the Realms, but it is really Ghaunadaur pulling the puppet strings.
Shemeska the Marauder
07-12-06, 02:53 PM One minor difference with the Abyss of the Realms is that Jubilex does not have a presence in the Realms, and presumably does not live in the Realms Abyss.

Or Ghaunadaur got wise and plays himself off as Juiblex to erstwhile worshippers of that Abyssal Lord on Toril, co-opting his name and hijacking his worship.

This of course if you use the actual Abyss as the Abyss, rather than using the "FR Abyss".
TomCosta
07-12-06, 05:21 PM I believe the only appearance of Juiblex in the Realms was in the 2E Spellbound box set. Eric folded him into Ghaunadaur in Demihuman Deities because there was an effort in the three 2E god books to reconcile some of the one-time mentions of gods with the existing gods, thus Juiblex got the axe.
Kenzuki
07-12-06, 07:44 PM Aren't Ghaunadaur and Juiblex both basically slime deities that look like giant blobs of jello?
ericlboyd
07-12-06, 09:08 PM Aren't Ghaunadaur and Juiblex both basically slime deities that look like giant blobs of jello?

Yes, but Ghaunadaur resembles a putrescent purple jello, while Juiblex resembles a neon green jello. They are entirely different and I don't see how you could possibly confuse the two.

:D

--Eric
Gray Richardson
07-13-06, 10:08 AM Memo to CEO:

G,

The acquisitions team has identified an opportune weakness in the FPR (Faith to Price Ratio) of Jubilex stock. As you know, the Jubilex brand has a small but very dedicated consumer base in our geographic sphere of interest. Research shows that Jubilex has considerable overlap with our target markets and demographics. A merger would allow us to consolidate marketshare and achieve considerable synergies with a unified portfolio. Cost of the merger will be minimal and mostly offset by terminations among redundant Jubilex support staff. Their chairman remains opposed to merger, but we feel the time is ripe for a hostile takeover. With your approval the team will move to execute.

Dear Ghaunadaur Inc.,

I would like to register a complaint. I have been a loyal Jubilex customer for many years. I do not approve of this new fangled color. I like my Jubilex green. I do not like purple Jubilex. It tastes funny too. Bring back the old Jubilex.

Dear Valued Customer,

We here at Ghaunadaur Inc. understand your concerns as a loyal Jubilex user. We want you to know that Ghaunadaur appreciates your business. While the introduction of New Jubilex has been a resounding success, and many of our customers have come to love the new taste and color, we realize also that many Jubilex users maintain a fondness for the older version. Therefore, Ghaunadaur is bringing back the old Jubilex just for you. Our new product is called Jubilex Classic, and it will appear identical to your favorite neon green jelly in every way. So now, whether you choose to enjoy the purple putrescence of New Jubilex, or the green ickiness of Jubilex Classic, we want you to know that Ghaunadaur is here to serve all your vile and evil needs.

GHAUNADAUR Inc.
Spreading Vile Evil for Countless Eons

:coolcthul
Kenzuki
07-13-06, 05:37 PM Rofl that's the best. I can just imagine a Bill Cosby character playing High Priest of Juiblex/Ghaunadaur. "Now faithful Children, let us begin our mantra. J-E-L-L-O!"

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Burpcycle 07-09-06, 10:51 PM	Do the Hells and the Abyss work the same in FR as the default setting? I mean, is Asmodeus and all his friends harassing Faerun as they harass Oearth? Same with the Abyss? I know Graz'zt exists in FR, having kidnapped Waukeen, but I've never seen the other ones mentioned at all outside of NVN and BGII.
GothicDan 07-09-06, 11:34 PM	Yes they do. There are references to archfiends in the FRCS, the PGtF, Elminster in Hell, Unapproachable East, etc. The list goes on and on.
TomCosta 07-10-06, 01:17 PM	GothicDan is absolutely right. There are a few minor differences here and there -- a careful read of Elminster in Hell will bring up a few IIRC, but most, if not all, are so minor as to be ignorable by most. For some the one exception might be a few of the challenges in reconciling the history of Orcus for the Realms, although that said, I am not one of those some. Similar issues arise with Tiamat's and Bahamut's history, but these challenges are as much about inconsistencies and previous changes between editions as anything that exists since 3E came out.
Kaewin 07-10-06, 06:31 PM	Does Bahamut exist in the Realms? If so where is he? I don't remember seeing him mentioned, of course I could be wrong.
Shemeska the Marauder 07-11-06, 11:53 AM	Do the Hells and the Abyss work the same in FR as the default setting? I mean, is Asmodeus and all his friends harassing Faerun as they harass Oearth? Same with the Abyss? I know Graz'zt exists in FR, having kidnapped Waukeen, but I've never seen the other ones mentioned at all outside of NVN and BGII. Largely the only differences are an artifact of 3e FR randomly plucking itself out of its previous cosmology (it was part of the Great Wheel, the default 3e cosmology, from first print up till a few years ago). No explanations for the change were given in game, it just happened, is assumed to have always been that way, and thus far no attempt has been made to address the continuity issues this brings up for pre-3e sources on the realms that address the planes (and 3e books are peppered with references to planes that technically aren't supposed to exist in FR now, where various authors usually by accident, referenced older FR planar lore). That said, the Abyss and Baator are virtually the exact same in the new cosmology, but the Gray Waste, Gehenna, and Carceri have been mishmashed together, and the unique yugoloth lords have been renamed (Anthraxus to Inthracis, General of Gehenna to Kexxon) along with some of their homes (Gehenna's furnace of Khalas becomes Calaas in FR). There are some very minor differences from the default in the novel Elminster in Hell, but those are more Ed Greenwood sticking with his vision of Baator from the 70s, rather than the current Baator as it has evolved since he wrote his stuff for very early Dragon magazine. Now if you use the planes heavily in your campaign, and this is my sincere advice, you might want to stick with the material from the default/Great Wheel cosmology since it's much more detailed, more open to mortal interaction, more based on being the manifestations of abstract ideas then as the backyard of specific deities, and the differences between the default and 3e FR's notions can be a nightmare unless you're willing to just gloss over them.
TomCosta 07-11-06, 12:55 PM	Bahamut has a very convuleted history (as does Tiamat) in general, but also more specifically in the Realms. He played a major role in the early 2E module H4 wherein King Gareth Dragonsbane of Damara slew Tiamat (or some version of her). He also appeared as a non-godly version of himself in the original 2E and Realms-specific Draconomicon. Since then, he may have popped his head up here and there, but I suspect his existence will be addressed in the forthcoming Dragons of the Realms. That said, there is an exhaustive thread on Bahamut on these boards here: http://boards1.wizards.com/archive/index.php/t-410060.html
ericlboyd 07-11-06, 02:44 PM	FWIW, I've tried to partially address both these questions (role of the Platinum Dragon in the Realms and how the Nine Hells work for the Realms) in "upcoming stuff". I'll leave it at that for now, but I think you'll have more info before the end of the year. --Eric
Irav222 07-11-06, 03:52 PM	I still have an old forgotten realms solo adventure called "Knight of the Living Dead". In it you play an undead paladin(fallen paladin risen by a lich to find the pieces of the staff of waterdeep). Waterdeep and the surrounding area has been put under somoe sort of mass sleep spell and all the areas undead are going to waterdeep collecting magical items and going beneath the city and melding into a huge undead construct. The liches are serving under Orcus but, plan to betray and defeat him (hense your quest to find the artifact for them). There is a lot more to it but, it seems Orcus has a strong following in the realms.
Kaewin 07-11-06, 07:23 PM	Thanks I had wondered about him with the felldrakes and all.
Gray Richardson 07-12-06, 02:13 AM	One minor difference with the Abyss of the Realms is that Jubilex does not have a presence in the Realms, and presumably does not live in the Realms Abyss. Ghaunadaur answers to the name Jubilex as one of his aliases. Either because Jubilex never interloped into the Realms, or more probably because Ghaunadaur at some point defeated the Realms aspect of Jubilex and absorbed his essence and his worship. I suppose however that Ghaunadaur could manifest a Jubilex avatar on occasion, or an "aspect of Jubilex" (a la Miniatures Handbook or the FC1 Web Enhancement), so some people may believe that Jubilex has a presence in the Realms, but it is really Ghaunadaur pulling the puppet strings.
Shemeska the Marauder 07-12-06, 02:53 PM	One minor difference with the Abyss of the Realms is that Jubilex does not have a presence in the Realms, and presumably does not live in the Realms Abyss. Or Ghaunadaur got wise and plays himself off as Juiblex to erstwhile worshippers of that Abyssal Lord on Toril, co-opting his name and hijacking his worship. This of course if you use the actual Abyss as the Abyss, rather than using the "FR Abyss".
TomCosta 07-12-06, 05:21 PM	I believe the only appearance of Juiblex in the Realms was in the 2E Spellbound box set. Eric folded him into Ghaunadaur in Demihuman Deities because there was an effort in the three 2E god books to reconcile some of the one-time mentions of gods with the existing gods, thus Juiblex got the axe.
Kenzuki 07-12-06, 07:44 PM	Aren't Ghaunadaur and Juiblex both basically slime deities that look like giant blobs of jello?
ericlboyd 07-12-06, 09:08 PM	Aren't Ghaunadaur and Juiblex both basically slime deities that look like giant blobs of jello? Yes, but Ghaunadaur resembles a putrescent purple jello, while Juiblex resembles a neon green jello. They are entirely different and I don't see how you could possibly confuse the two. :D --Eric
Gray Richardson 07-13-06, 10:08 AM	Memo to CEO: G, The acquisitions team has identified an opportune weakness in the FPR (Faith to Price Ratio) of Jubilex stock. As you know, the Jubilex brand has a small but very dedicated consumer base in our geographic sphere of interest. Research shows that Jubilex has considerable overlap with our target markets and demographics. A merger would allow us to consolidate marketshare and achieve considerable synergies with a unified portfolio. Cost of the merger will be minimal and mostly offset by terminations among redundant Jubilex support staff. Their chairman remains opposed to merger, but we feel the time is ripe for a hostile takeover. With your approval the team will move to execute. Dear Ghaunadaur Inc., I would like to register a complaint. I have been a loyal Jubilex customer for many years. I do not approve of this new fangled color. I like my Jubilex green. I do not like purple Jubilex. It tastes funny too. Bring back the old Jubilex. Dear Valued Customer, We here at Ghaunadaur Inc. understand your concerns as a loyal Jubilex user. We want you to know that Ghaunadaur appreciates your business. While the introduction of New Jubilex has been a resounding success, and many of our customers have come to love the new taste and color, we realize also that many Jubilex users maintain a fondness for the older version. Therefore, Ghaunadaur is bringing back the old Jubilex just for you. Our new product is called Jubilex Classic, and it will appear identical to your favorite neon green jelly in every way. So now, whether you choose to enjoy the purple putrescence of New Jubilex, or the green ickiness of Jubilex Classic, we want you to know that Ghaunadaur is here to serve all your vile and evil needs. GHAUNADAUR Inc. Spreading Vile Evil for Countless Eons :coolcthul
Kenzuki 07-13-06, 05:37 PM	Rofl that's the best. I can just imagine a Bill Cosby character playing High Priest of Juiblex/Ghaunadaur. "Now faithful Children, let us begin our mantra. J-E-L-L-O!"