Post/Author/DateTime	Post
gratzu 03-01-07, 03:05 PM	I run a game in the Silver Marches and one of the players is driving me nuts. He asked me at character creation if he could play a psion and I said no. In my FR, psions do not exist. He seemed fine with it but I noticed last session that he's acting kinda weird. On paper he's a mage but he keeps trying to use his spells like a psion. Here's an example of an encounter where the party spots a brigand sentry sitting in a tree. Him- "Can I target the tree branch the sentry is sitting on with Magic Missile to make it break?" Me- "no, magic missiles can only target 'up to 5 creatures' (PHB). It's an attack spell, that's it". Him- "oh, ok. In that case I'm casting Ray of Frost and I'm targeting his mouth so he can't call out." Me- **grumbles and tries valiantly to remember the mechanics of a called shot via ray attack and upon failing spectacularly asks him;** "is it even your initiative?" Him- "when did we roll initiative?" Me- **repressing the urge to strangle said player, I tell him;** "Just roll initiative." Him- "Um...4" Me- "Well we're on 24 now, I'll get to you in a sec." Well, I embellished a little for comedic effect but you get the idea. He's not that bad yet but he's about to get 3rd lvl spells and it worries me a bit. I'm all for using lightning bolt to electrocute an enemy in the water every once in a while, but I don't know how far he might try to take it. I like the guy, I just don't know how to talk to him. Do you guys have any suggestions? (I'm also posting this on the "What's a DM to Do?" board but I wanted to know what you guys think too). Thanks guys!
Tarus 03-01-07, 03:29 PM	Psions do exist in the forgotten realms. The actual campaign setting book says to treat psionics like magic (which I dislike and ignore). In R.A. Salvatores books there is a whole Drow house that uses psionics instead of clerics in their worship of the goddess Lloth. I can say that in his books they initially lost their mind powers during the time of troubles but they 'rerouted' the connections in their brown to reacquire them. Because magic (both arcane and divine) was iffy and nonfunctional during the time of troubles but this psionic house was able to regain theres, I prefer to go with that and say its different from arcane magic. Now, back to the point. It is certain more rare and I doubt he can expect to find random psionic magical items often (if at all) but I would allow him to be a psion if you have no problem with reading up on and learning the psionic rules.
gratzu 03-01-07, 03:49 PM	I don't have the money or the the time atm to get and read the books. My DMing skills are also really rusty so I'm trying to keep it as simple as possible until I get the hang of it again. I would have to pay an inordinate amount of attention to his character to fit him in with the cannon material in the Silver Marches and that's not fair to my other players. I want everyone to have fun in my game, (me included) and I decided that having to deal with the large number of additional rules it would take to have a psychic pc wasn't worth the stress. Maybe I'm just being ornery today but I truly want to avoid a potential problem later on. Sorry for the babbling, it's been one of those days.
Tarus 03-01-07, 03:56 PM	Well, if you don't have the psionic hand book and he isn't willing to buy it, then I see no reason to allow him to be a psion. One thing worth mentioning though is that a psion is very very similar to a wizard or sorcerer. Wizards - Prepare spells ahead of time. Large variety (all) of spells in their spellbooks. Sorcerer - Casts spells on the fly. More spells per day but limited variety of spells allowed. Psions take this to the next step. Psions have even more limited number of spells (powers) but can customize them even more. For example, a psion would get 5 power points (just made the number up, im not sure the real number). 1st level powers cost 1 power point. 2nd level powers cost 3. And then 0th level are called talents and work slightly different. So you could cast a second level and two first or 5 first...very dynamic. Thats basically it though. Psions can use thier powers even when wearing full armor...no armor check penalty. And instead of somatic and verbal components I believe different spells have 'sensory affects' like maybe your eyes would glow briefly. Instead of a familier they get a psi crystal. Works much the same way (honestly I think the psi crystal is lame). The spell list is different. My suggestion would be to give him a sorcerer instead of a wizard. Explain to him how his character has draconic blood and it allows him to just will magical affects to happen. No spell books needed. A sorcerer is very close to what a psion is anyway.
JaiaDrottsingr 03-01-07, 06:22 PM	Wizards - Prepare spells ahead of time. Large variety (all) of spells in their spellbooks. Sorcerer - Casts spells on the fly. More spells per day but limited variety of spells allowed. Um, sorcerors can cast immediately, can cast any type of spell, but must depend on less spells per day and given per level. Wizards must specialize in a two or three schools, and prepare ahead of time, but have more spells given per level and spells per day.
BadCatMan 03-01-07, 06:56 PM	Um, he's not doing anything that's vaguely psionic. He's just being a pest who doesn't know the magic rules. Called Shots don't exist in D&D 3.5, Ray of Frost won't shut someone up, and you're right, Magic Missile doesn't work like that.
Dark Wizard 03-01-07, 08:45 PM	Though he should get brownie points for trying creative things, even if they don't work as the rules ( fantasy world physics) allow.
MarkusTay63 03-01-07, 10:45 PM	Though he should get brownie points for trying creative things, even if they don't work as the rules ( fantasy world physics) allow.I 100% agree with dark Wizard. Sometimes its Okay to think outside the box, and I myself enjoy and reward creative playing. Rules shmules, the idea is to have fun, and I like the idea of using the frost spell to shut someone up. D&D is a little quirky when it comes to the magic IMHO; I've never heard of a wizard like Gandalf or Merlin say "sorry, I can't hit the tree branch, I can only target people". I've had players suprise and amaze me with their ideas, so roll with it, especially if you are rusty. When I first got back into gaming some 15 years ago I didn't even know 2e rules, but was running a 2e game! I let my players figure out the mechanics (they had the books, I had the experience), all I did was 'tell the story'. :D Sometimes stretching or ignoring the books can lead to a great time, but thats just my take.
Dark Wizard 03-01-07, 11:52 PM	Well rules are rules, they keep the game playable instead of a cake walk through dice rolls. However, you shouldn't get annoyed at a player for trying. It sounds like you're developing a mildly irrational bias against him.
BrianCritchley 03-02-07, 03:01 AM	agreed he's not playing like a psion he's just playing like a kid whose too lazy to read the rules. smack him over the head with the rule book and tell him to read it.
draco1119 03-02-07, 03:23 AM	Um, sorcerors can cast immediately, can cast any type of spell, but must depend on less spells per day and given per level. Wizards must specialize in a two or three schools, and prepare ahead of time, but have more spells given per level and spells per day. Um, nope. Sorcerors get spells known automatically and can't learn more from spellbooks, but they can cast more spells per day. RTFM. :P
JaiaDrottsingr 03-02-07, 07:24 AM	Um, nope. Sorcerors get spells known automatically and can't learn more from spellbooks, but they can cast more spells per day. RTFM. :P But wizards still must specialize in a few schools. Sorcerors can get a spell from any school, just gain less per level.
Faraer 03-02-07, 08:09 AM	Well rules are rules, they keep the game playable instead of a cake walk through dice rolls.In this case they're also setting, since the Realms had Vanceian magic with its specific, definite spells before it was D&Dized. On the other hand, it has flexibility in spellcasting which the rules only model -- partially, clumsily and mostly by chance -- through feats. It's hard to advise without knowing more about this player, but in general, if you can interest him in Realms magic as it is, he'll be less likely to want some other kind.
Kid SixXx 03-02-07, 08:20 AM	I don't have the money or the the time atm to get and read the books. If expense is an issue, perhaps he should buy the books then? And if he does, you should make earnest effort to read them. I rarely buy the "I don't have time" argument because I myself am a lazy DM and you have as much time as you allow yourself to have. If you're not running a Fortune 500 company, time is not an issue. :)
Red_Wizard 03-02-07, 09:09 AM	But wizards still must specialize in a few schools. Sorcerors can get a spell from any school, just gain less per level. Wizards don't have to specialize in any school. They can if they wish, but it isn't mandatory. Sorcerers get a smaller spell list, and more slots through which to cast, VS wizards who have more spells, but less slots through which to cast them. Also, Wizards prepare, and thus must choose daily spells, and Sorcerers always have their selection handy. To psions, while I feel they're broken, are slightly more fixed in the Realms when considered magic for the purposes of defeating them. Which to me, makes alot of sense. This rule can be found in the Players Guide to Faerun, PP. 172, bottom of the page. The R.A. Salvatore novel in question is Siege of Darkness, and the page that sums this up is PP. 168. During the ToT, Psionics continued to work, as they were not governed by any deific force, but when the ToT's ended, the laws of this sphere where changed, and through it, the mental pathways through which Psionics were channelled. The Mindflayers very quickly found this new pathway, and rectified their disadvantage, but the members of Hourse Oblodra (The psionic house in question), could not find the new means to defend themselves before their ultimate destruction came at the hands of the old Matron Baenre. Now to me, this makes alot of sense. Why should magic not be able to stop Psionics, or vice versa? They are both energy focused, and shaped with the minds of their channelers, they simply happen to take alternate forms of manifestation. Energy is energy, and against one another, they nullify. I see little argument to the contrary. As to the original question of whether or not to allow it in you campaign, as a DM ultimatly it is your rule. Also, Psions hold a good potential to be horribly broken, mainly due to their use of PP. That being said, should you wish to allow them, my reccomendation is let the entire party consist of them, and then have everyone on equal footing as they build, and learn the ups and downs of a psion first hand. Then, later, if things work out, you can now safly implement one or two, without fretting about your player breaking your game, or you not knowing what it is they are doing.
Tarus 03-02-07, 09:11 AM	But wizards still must specialize in a few schools. Sorcerors can get a spell from any school, just gain less per level. You should recheck your facts. My original break down that you disputed was correct. A wizard can be a generalist or a specialist (in one school). They can put any spell they find in their spell book but they are limited to a number per day they have to memorize in advance.
Kid SixXx 03-02-07, 09:58 AM	Now to me, this makes alot of sense. Why should magic not be able to stop Psionics, or vice versa? The transparency rule makes things easier, but that rule sorta kills any slight desire there may be to play a Psion. Why play a psion if you are just as effective or ineffective as a wizard at dealing with certain threats? That's just gimping the psion & wizards have enough benefits as it is.
Red_Wizard 03-02-07, 12:58 PM	The transparency rule makes things easier, but that rule sorta kills any slight desire there may be to play a Psion. Why play a psion if you are just as effective or ineffective as a wizard at dealing with certain threats? That's just gimping the psion & wizards have enough benefits as it is. Because a psion can do thing's a Wizard can't, and can pour all PP into a still attack, making it uber should he so wish. The only thing that restricts a psion from dominating any major fight, is his restrictions on PP at low levels. What would a Wizard, or anyone for that matter, do against a PC, or NPC with Psionic abilities, to which they were completly defensless? Duck and hope for the best? And in return, should they wish to cast back, the psion simply uses his powers to nullify all incoming offensive threats. No offense, but the misguided idea that by making psionics susceptable to magic, in some way hinders, or belittles it, IMO is nothing more than the annoyed cry of a disgruntled power gamer, upset that his l33t Character can no longer blow through the throngs of foes unopposed...
MarkusTay63 03-02-07, 04:29 PM	Well rules are rules, they keep the game playable instead of a cake walk through dice rolls. However, you shouldn't get annoyed at a player for trying. It sounds like you're developing a mildly irrational bias against him.I won't let players do 'whatever' they want, but if they are trying to do something different with a spell that normally isn't allowed, I will throw a percentage chance for it to succeeed; maybe something like a DC50 vs (Wiz lev+Spellcraft+Knwledge:arcana). That simulates learning to use magic in new ways, and I would allow the player to do it that way again once he has learned how to. I might allow Sorcerors a +2 to "do it on the fly" (intuitive casting), and Wiz a +2 if researched and done in a controlled environment. I don't break the rules, I just bend the hell out of them. :D agreed he's not playing like a psion he's just playing like a kid whose too lazy to read the rules. smack him over the head with the rule book and tell him to read it.Good call, lord knows I've taught enough of those how to play this game. :rolleye2: I rarely buy the "I don't have time" argument because I myself am a lazy DM and you have as much time as you allow yourself to have. If you're not running a Fortune 500 company, time is not an issue. :)Not to have time investing in and learning an entirely different approach to 'magic' (since that how FR treats psionics)? Any time spent enhancing the quality of your game is well spent, but if it's just going to bog it down and ruin it for others then I would have to say its a waste of time. I have both psionic books, just to have them for reference for encounters with things like Illiads (flavor, not mechanics), but I wouldn't want my players using it. Firstly, it doesn't 'feel' Realmsy, and second, I have more creative things to do with my time then to learn an entire system to make one person happy. As far as Psion vs magic, I would love to take the rules and 'fix' them. In other words, not to treat psionics as magic (because ITS NOT) but rather take each and every spell and each and every psionic ability and figure out how they would effect each other. In most cases they wouldn't, but in cases like 'mind' magic or harmful psionic effects vs protections I would have to examine EACH and EVERY case ahead of time to figure out how to resolve them realisticly. The "psionics IS magic" argument may simplify things, but it is just so wrong on so many levels. I believe if you can't do something properly, then don't do it at all. So with that in mind, I do not have the time to re-vamp the entire system and refuse to use it as is (treating it as 'magic'). Does anyone know if Eberron treats psionics differently? Then that might be worth taking a look at.
Zevox 03-02-07, 05:43 PM	Well, as others have said, Psionics do indeed exist in the Realms. There was even an ancient kingdom called Jhaamdath that was a Psiocracy, and theres a God of Psionics and Enlightenment, Auppenser, who is now in a coma after losing most of his worshipers when Jhaamdath fell. Personally, if I had a player suggest the MM on the tree branch thing, I'd congratulate him on the nice innovation and let it work. The Ray of Frost on the mouth, yeah, that one wouldn't slide, but destroying a tree branch is a very nice idea which has nothing to do with psionics vs magic. Because a psion can do thing's a Wizard can't, and can pour all PP into a still attack, making it uber should he so wish. Um, no, he cannot. A Psion can never spend more pp in one manifestation than his psion level. He can spend enough in a low-level power that it does as much or nearly as much damage as high-level one, but in the process hes also paying the same amount for that power as he would for the higher-level one, so its just as though that power were a higher-level one to begin. Zevox
Red_Wizard 03-02-07, 05:56 PM	As far as Psion vs magic, I would love to take the rules and 'fix' them. In other words, not to treat psionics as magic (because ITS NOT) but rather take each and every spell and each and every psionic ability and figure out how they would effect each other. In most cases they wouldn't, but in cases like 'mind' magic or harmful psionic effects vs protections I would have to examine EACH and EVERY case ahead of time to figure out how to resolve them realisticly. The "psionics IS magic" argument may simplify things, but it is just so wrong on so many levels. I believe if you can't do something properly, then don't do it at all. So with that in mind, I do not have the time to re-vamp the entire system and refuse to use it as is (treating it as 'magic'). Saying for the pruposes of determining how they react with one another, is simply treating them like Magic is IMO the best, and only fair way to do it. They should IMO intereact, and I see no valid argument why they wouldn't. You can't counterspell one with the other, unless using dispelling, which makes sence.and you can nullify one with the other in an anti whatever feild, which makes sence. Again I say they should interact as though spells, and I still say there is no valid argument to the contrary...
MarkusTay63 03-02-07, 06:40 PM	Again I say they should interact as though spells, and I still say there is no valid argument to the contrary...But psionic diciplines are NOT spells! D&D may want to think of them that way, but then what is the point of psionics? To be honest, I have almost no clue how the new psionic system works. Are you saying that an anti-magic field would be effective against a psinocist?! Or that psionics would not work in a dead magic zone? That, IMHO, would be UTTERLY ridiculous! If thats the case, then I think I remember why I never bothered to incorporate said rules.
Red_Wizard 03-02-07, 06:50 PM	But psionic diciplines are NOT spells! D&D may want to think of them that way, but then what is the point of psionics? It doesn't say they are, only that they are treated as spells for the purposes of interaction. They are obviously different abilities, but for fairness, and balance, need to interact with one another. Anti magic, is esentially anti Raw power. Psionics are still energy, and it's energy is dampened within an anti magic field. Think of it like an area hit with an EMP weapon. Short of having sheilded wires, all electronics, despite location made, will be rendered useless Dead magic zones however don't affect Psions. The same way they don't affect Shadow Weave users. This being said, given the disruption of Psionics at the end of the ToT, it would stand to reason there are certain areas, especially within the underdark, where a Psion simply can't seem to focus his mind. Back to it interacting with spells though, for the ones that make sense it interacts, but if it doesn't make sense to interact, it doesn't. For example, A fireball, would not counter a Psionic Blast, But a Mind Blank Spell, would prevent the psion from breaching the persons mind for Mind control, or probing attempts. You can't counterspell Psionics with Magic, unless you are using something like Dispel magic, or if there are abilities that both classes share identically. Just because the method for focusing is different, doesn't change the fact that they are both chanelled energy, and they can(When creating identicle effects) cancel out one another. Ie: A weave Fireball, and a Psionic Fireball (know there isn't one, but as an example....Not to mention the DC for identifying one anothers channellings would be nigh impossible ;)) It all makes perfect sense really.
MarkusTay63 03-02-07, 07:15 PM	Mechanics-wise perhaps, but flavor-wise it still leaves a bad taste in my mouth (pun intended). ;)
Red_Wizard 03-02-07, 07:47 PM	Mechanics-wise perhaps, but flavor-wise it still leaves a bad taste in my mouth (pun intended). ;) Mechanics wise, and flavour wise, it makes almost no difference:P Only diff is, Psionics can't just walk all over everything any more:P
MarkusTay63 03-02-07, 07:56 PM	There was an article in Dragon about using psionicists to control 'naughty' players, and it was designed just for people like me. :D Basically, there are no rules. If a character gets out of hand in a town, one of the local gaurds flicks his finger and said charcter goes sailing over the town wall. The article was wonderful, and had many 'sneaky' suggestions on ways to undermine character 'badness', including gaurds stationed at gates that read the minds and intentions of newcomers as they entered. If they had evil thoughts, they would be surreptitiously followed for the duration of their stay. To me, that was one of the most useful articles I ever read, because it allowed me to have psionics in the background AND had the added benefit of teaching unruly players a valuable lesson.
Red_Wizard 03-02-07, 08:16 PM	There was an article in Dragon about using psionicists to control 'naughty' players, and it was designed just for people like me. :D Basically, there are no rules. If a character gets out of hand in a town, one of the local gaurds flicks his finger and said charcter goes sailing over the town wall. The article was wonderful, and had many 'sneaky' suggestions on ways to undermine character 'badness', including gaurds stationed at gates that read the minds and intentions of newcomers as they entered. If they had evil thoughts, they would be surreptitiously followed for the duration of their stay. To me, that was one of the most useful articles I ever read, because it allowed me to have psionics in the background AND had the added benefit of teaching unruly players a valuable lesson. From a DM standpoint, they can be useful to pistol whip your players into submission...but from a Lore, and implementation standpoint, the method set forth here makes the most sense, both in fairness, and in practicality, and how at least I believe it should work.
MarkusTay63 03-02-07, 08:31 PM	True, but have you ever had a group of teenage players murder an entire village just because they could? I have. :( I lent the mag that that article was in to my bro-in-law, and it saved his campaign. I do totally understand you though, and am not disagreeing. Its just that psionics in a fantasy setting just isn't MY cup of tea. I even had a charcter back in 1e make that absurd die-roll (1%?) for random psionic ability and make it. My DM was very dismayed because he thought he had to learn the rules for it (what were they, in the back of the DMG somewhere?). I told him don't worry about, because I had no intention of using them. He liked that SO much that every once in awhile he would give me little 'hints' that other players didn't get, ostensibly my 'powers' working in the background. We were both very happy with that, and I played that character for YEARS. In fact, he's still an NPC of mine floating around somewhere.
Red_Wizard 03-02-07, 08:41 PM	Yep I get what your saying, though I can't say I have been unfortunate enough to suffer that drastic of a group, though I know all about unreasonably disfunctional parties. :);)
MarkusTay63 03-02-07, 08:48 PM	I was training them for my bro-in-law, because they wanted to learn the game and he was clueless on how to run it. I actually manged to retain some limited control over the 14-16 yr olds, but once I handed it over to my bro they went nutz! The last three sessions I ran for them, the entire party killed each other. :( I got tired of having them re-roll characters for every game, so I just kept allowing them to re-use the originals. It was pretty much a disaster from the get go. It does leave me with a few fond memories though... :D
miscellany 03-03-07, 08:59 PM	I'm all for using lightning bolt to electrocute an enemy in the water every once in a while, but I don't know how far he might try to take it. I like the guy, I just don't know how to talk to him. Do you guys have any suggestions? (I'm also posting this on the "What's a DM to Do?" board but I wanted to know what you guys think too). Hey gratzu The mechanics of 3E do a lot to encourage players to try new things and come up with crazy (hopefully heroic) ideas in the midst of play. So if I were the DM in the example you list above I would point out to the player that any spell that does damage generally can't be used for secondary purposes (like freezing a mouth shut) because the spells' description doesn't include such extra effects. Then I'd point out to the player that he could try to attack the branch the sentry is on with his spell, then use common sense in adjudicating what happens (the wood might freeze up, but 1d3 points of damage probably isn't enough to make a section of the branch cold enough to shatter and break under its own weight and that of the sentry) If the player rolls a 20 and confirms his critical though, then rolls 5 or more points of damage...well mayble the branch might break. It's up to you regarding each idea he comes up with; just keep in mind this sort of creative on-the-spot judgements are good for play and frankly are what you as DM are supposed to be able to handle. Help him to learn the rules so he can get creative using a system you both understand. And if all else fails simply make Ray of Frost attacks like what he wanted to do a called shot with a large penalty (remember the handy DM's +2/-2 rule from the DMG? ...use it here and make the penalty -6 to -10 depending on whether the sentry has cover in the trees or not) and insist he role a 3 on the damage to freeze the guy's mouth shut for one round only. 3E rules are naturally flexible. Don't be afraid to bend them when it suits you to increase the fun factor. Good luck! :) ps: Miss Miscellany says: Slap him down for annoying you!. :mad:
Kid SixXx 03-05-07, 07:53 AM	No offense, but the misguided idea that by making psionics susceptable to magic, in some way hinders, or belittles it, IMO is nothing more than the annoyed cry of a disgruntled power gamer, upset that his l33t Character can no longer blow through the throngs of foes unopposed... Oh, spare me. If magic and psionics are going to have the same end result, there is no sense in being a psion in a setting that is high magic. A wizard will be able to do just about everything a psion can do, and usually better. The protection of wizards usually smacks of the powergamer that prefers arcane spellcasters and assumes that psionics is broken because he's never bothered to understand the rules. It's certainly not my fault that simple spellcasting rules are complicated in the FR by the presence of the Weave & heightens the sensitivities of pro-arcane spellcaster folk. Because a psion can do thing's a Wizard can't, and can pour all PP into a still attack, making it uber should he so wish. The only thing that restricts a psion from dominating any major fight, is his restrictions on PP at low levels. Case in point. A psion can't do this. And PP can be just as much a limitation as spell slots are, so that is a non-issue. Any time spent enhancing the quality of your game is well spent, but if it's just going to bog it down and ruin it for others then I would have to say its a waste of time. If the bulk of your players are with the anti-psion crowd, then I agree that it'd be a waste of time. I have both psionic books, just to have them for reference for encounters with things like Illiads (flavor, not mechanics), but I wouldn't want my players using it. Firstly, it doesn't 'feel' Realmsy, and second, I have more creative things to do with my time then to learn an entire system to make one person happy. 1) Illithids, maybe? 2) Psionics doesn't feel "realmsy" because it's been gradually removed from the content since the days of the grey-box and then recently shoehorned in. I don't think Ed ever particularly cared for or included psionics in His Realms, so there is argument that it shouldn't be there to begin with if you tend to prefer your Realms to be pure... whatever the hell that means or has to do with the privacy of your game table. 3) As far as making one person happy goes, allowing this one person to play a psion might arguably cut down on all of the silly wizard tricks he's trying to pull off. Making one guy happy might cut down on game distractions so that everyone ends up enjoying the game.... ...unless this guy that plays poor wizards also played poor psions at the game table of a DM who previously let the player get away with murder due to unfamiliarity with the XPH rules... Does anyone know if Eberron treats psionics differently? Then that might be worth taking a look at. Nope, the transparency rules are in Eberron as well. Quite a few of us tend not to use them since the logical importation of psionics into the setting has... "inspired"... us to perhaps be a bit more familiar with the rules than other people. Even so, there are still people who use the psion = sorcery rule or simply ignore the psionic stuff altogether and chose not to use the Kalashtar, Inspired or any of the Sarlona material... and that is perfectly fine to do. It's not like Keith Baker is sitting there with a gun at your head saying, "Use all of my canon or die." Ever notice how the people who quibble about Forgotten Realms Canon are also the ones who don’t play D & D all that much? Miscellany, tell your DM I'd like to buy him a beer sometime.
Red_Wizard 03-05-07, 10:56 AM	Oh, spare me. If magic and psionics are going to have the same end result, there is no sense in being a psion in a setting that is high magic. A wizard will be able to do just about everything a psion can do, and usually better. You obviously have a sketchy view of the same effect. Just because they interact with one another for the purposes of nullifying, does not mean the psions is diminished in any way. Their abilities all remain the same, their powers arn't being given away, wizards arn't gaining any new abilites....So where is the issue? The protection of wizards usually smacks of the powergamer that prefers arcane spellcasters and assumes that psionics is broken because he's never bothered to understand the rules. Symptom two of an overdefensive Powergamer. Transference of blame. Obviusly though it is a person trying to powergame a wizard, who would want to keep a balancing, and justifiable rule in the game. Yep, couldn't have anything to do with it making sense. Thank goodness i've seen the error of my ways. I mean, now that our abilities interact, Playing a wizard instantly gives me the upper hand.:rolleyes: It's certainly not my fault that simple spellcasting rules are complicated in the FR by the presence of the Weave & heightens the sensitivities of pro-arcane spellcaster folk. No offense again, but have you played a wizard? Nothing complicated there at all, save keeping track of your spells. The weave really adds nothing save story fluff in game terms. Not to mention, it is completly irrelevant in a discussion of psions. Where you to transfer our argument into greyhawk, or a generic earth, the point would remain the same. The two should interact. Case in point. A psion can't do this. And PP can be just as much a limitation as spell slots are, so that is a non-issue. Case an point to what?:P That didn't prove anything, but it was nice of you to try and use that phrase:P. The difference is on a day of average encounters, the psion is already as flexible as the sorcerer, and more potent than a wizard, who has to think of what spell is right, and what he may need later. Now add to that the fact, that should you suddenly wish, you can pour all you have into a single attack. So say your on the big boss, or maybe only have on encounter on average a day, alone you are blowing **** to bits, effectivly as a higher level caster might. Add to that your wish to make the two impervious to one anothers assaults, and where does that leave you? Psions using SR items, or abilities, and everyone else left vulnerable to their onslaught. If the bulk of your players are with the anti-psion crowd, then I agree that it'd be a waste of time. Anti-psion? Nope. I just don't see peoples needs to re break something that is at least partially fixed. The only answer can be powergamer. Nope, the transparency rules are in Eberron as well. Quite a few of us tend not to use them since the logical importation of psionics into the setting has... "inspired"... us to perhaps be a bit more familiar with the rules than other people. Being familiar with the rules has nothing to do with them interacting. I honestly don't believe you can make a valid argument as to why they shouldn't interact the way they do.
Kid SixXx 03-05-07, 11:26 AM	Just because they interact with one another for the purposes of nullifying, does not mean the psions is diminished in any way. You may as well be a sorcerer then, if your power that isn't supposed to be magical is still equated with magic. Symptom two of an overdefensive Powergamer. Transference of blame. Obviusly though it is a person trying to powergame a wizard, who would want to keep a balancing, and justifiable rule in the game. Yep, couldn't have anything to do with it making sense. It's certainly justifiable if you don't want anyone playing a psion in your campaign. Wow, I am a reduced to being a second rate sorcerer with power points instead of spell slots. I have no real use in a party since my powers don't really differentiate themselves from magic. The weave really adds nothing save story fluff in game terms. Eh? All magic in the setting is tied to the Weave and the Weave is attached to Aber-Toril. If you didn't separate the fluff from the crunch, varying applications about how the Weave should affect things usually caused flame wars. I assume you were here for the "Can My FR wizard use magic in the Planes?" days? The answer would usually be yes, unless you thought too much about the "Weave only exists on Aber-Toril" fluff... ... which people did... and hilarity followed closely... The difference is on a day of average encounters, the psion is already as flexible as the sorcerer, and more potent than a wizard, who has to think of what spell is right, and what he may need later. Eh? Psions and Sorcerers are hardly more potent than a wizard who has thought seriously about his metagmagic feats. Rings of Spell Storing, wands, and such being what they are further shut down that whole versatility argument. One way or another, a wizard usually has an appropriate spell for the appropriate threat. Anti-psion? Nope. I just don't see peoples needs to re break something that is at least partially fixed. The only answer can be powergamer. Psionics weren't all that broken (they were broken enough to cause many days of grief, though), but rules abuse & lack of understanding of the rules helped perpetuate the urban legend that they were and still are. And Dear Lord, if you think I am a powegamer, you've never seen me argue fluff with Kuje31 before, have ya? I take it that you're one of those, "Roleplay is the only way!" people since you seem to frown on powergaming? Being familiar with the rules has nothing to do with them interacting. People who are familiar with the rules realize that psionics rules are on the mend & are comfortable with dispensing with the transparency cop-out. Polymorphing... now there is a broken ruleset.
The_Shaman 03-05-07, 12:15 PM	Meh, what's the big issue? Okay, I admit I have next to no experience with psionics. However, compared to a sorcerer, the psion feels relatively equal-ish. It's a bit weird they can do more things with their powers than sorcerers with their magic, but I guess having magic in the blood has limits. Still, psions get extra feats and a better casting (oops, manifesting) stat. The transparency rules make sense - IMO - for Faerun. Since the Weave is about pretty much everything, it may well be that psionics is about "unlocking it" with your mind. Yes, if there weren't some form of a catalyst, I would feel a bit confused about a psion altering the bleeping reality with a thought. Spending a huge amount on researching and performing an ancient ritual (wizards' stuff) somehow seems a more feasible explanation. If you're wielding such obscene power, the question where it comes from is a rather viable one, and imo the Weave is a better answer than "my brain". Magic is one way to do it, psionics is another. Since both use different ways to tap into it, it might make sense for the manifestations to be slightly different - but it can still be the same power, hence subject to similar rules. Just my two cents. If the player wants to be a psion, there's nothing wrong with that. Mind you, if the DM doesn't want psionics, that's okay too.
Red_Wizard 03-05-07, 01:04 PM	You may as well be a sorcerer then, if your power that isn't supposed to be magical is still equated with magic. Are you of the same mind that psionics is now drawn from the weave? If so, then perhaps that is where you're scewed view of this is coming from. For the purposes of interacting, IE: Spell resistance, dispelling, antimagic feild, and Mind blank, They are treated as the same only in effects, nothing else. Other than the obvious interaction things, they are 100% different. There really should be no issue whatsoever when everything is clear. It's certainly justifiable if you don't want anyone playing a psion in your campaign. I would alloy a psion to play in my campaign if they knew the rules, had the sources, and had played one before successfully. While I think they are broken, I don't shun something I see as an interesting part of the Realms, and DnD. Wow, I am a reduced to being a second rate sorcerer with power points instead of spell slots. I have no real use in a party since my powers don't really differentiate themselves from magic. The issue here is either you're saying that Psionics are, and always have been to weak, or that somehow the rule breaks them. Both points are drastically flawed. Eh? All magic in the setting is tied to the Weave and the Weave is attached to Aber-Toril. If you didn't separate the fluff from the crunch, varying applications about how the Weave should affect things usually caused flame wars. The weave need not come in on something that it has no relevance to. In Faerun, magic comes like magic in any other setting for the purposes of game play. Knowing about the weave, and its intricate rules is fluff, that again is not needed when discussing Psionics. I assume you were here for the "Can My FR wizard use magic in the Planes?" days? The answer would usually be yes, unless you thought too much about the "Weave only exists on Aber-Toril" fluff... ... which people did... and hilarity followed closely... The way I personally handle it is were a wizard to go off world, or come to toril from elsewhere, there is a transition period (not nessasarily played) in which the character attunes themself to the new flow of magic. This rids the campaign of the issue of "Why can a Faerunian spellcaster, still cast off of toril?". Eh? Psions and Sorcerers are hardly more potent than a wizard who has thought seriously about his metagmagic feats. At higher levels, everything balances out again nicly anyway.....It's at the low levels where the qualms arrise. And Psions, and Sorcerers are definatly more powerful at low levels, than their Wizard counterpart. Psionics weren't all that broken (they were broken enough to cause many days of grief, though), but rules abuse & lack of understanding of the rules helped perpetuate the urban legend that they were and still are. Done right, they have been drastically fixed. But, more so than any other class, they have the largest margin for breaking. Things like Spell Points when incorporated, can break the system as well, which is why the tried and true method is what I, and many I know, still stick to in a campaign. And Dear Lord, if you think I am a powegamer, you've never seen me argue fluff with Kuje31 before, have ya? I take it that you're one of those, "Roleplay is the only way!" people since you seem to frown on powergaming? I'm, saying your mentality on the matter comes accross as that of a powergamer. Whether you are or not, I wouldn't know without gaming with you. But when looking at the rule on Psionics for interactiong with magic, it is a simple, and sensical rule from every standpoint. As for being the opinion of "Roleplay is the only way!", in a manner I suppose I am. I believe that an equal ammount of Hack and Slash is needed for fun, and to simplify story, but RP is definatly much preferable to the powergaming route. Powergaming for me has never been something I found particularily interesting, as it defeats the whole purpose of playing the game. You'd be better off playing a first person shooter, or superman game, in which you can destroy everything you want, and not have to think past entering a screen name. People who are familiar with the rules realize that psionics rules are on the mend & are comfortable with dispensing with the transparency cop-out. On the mend or not, I would really like to know why you feel having magic and Psionics interact on levels that make more than perfect sense, is wrong, or a "cop-out". Polymorphing... now there is a broken ruleset. Agreed.
Deekin 03-08-07, 02:44 PM	Psionics-Magic Transparency Though not explicitly called out in the spell descriptions or magic item descriptions, spells, spell-like abilities, and magic items that could potentially affect psionics do affect psionics. When the rule about psionics-magic transparency is in effect, it has the following ramifications. Spell resistance is effective against powers, using the same mechanics. Likewise, power resistance is effective against spells, using the same mechanics as spell resistance. If a creature has one kind of resistance, it is assumed to have the other. (The effects have similar ends despite having been brought about by different means.) All spells that dispel magic have equal effect against powers of the same level using the same mechanics, and vice versa. The spell detect magic detects powers, their number, and their strength and location within 3 rounds (though a Psicraft check is necessary to identify the discipline of the psionic aura). As for why someone would want to play a psion, becouse they have some cool tricks that only a psion can pull off, can moderate their energy expenditure, and have a pre-build gish class.
MarkusTay63 03-08-07, 06:14 PM	Are you of the same mind that psionics is now drawn from the weave? If so, then perhaps that is where you're scewed view of this is coming from. For the purposes of interacting, IE: Spell resistance, dispelling, antimagic feild, and Mind blank, They are treated as the same only in effects, nothing else. Other than the obvious interaction things, they are 100% different.The fact that an anti-magic field affects a mental dicipline says it all. :rolleyes: Granted, the RAW are a VAST improvement over previous additions, but until they take the time to seperate them a little better then I would have to say they are still a 'little buggy'. maybe not broken entirely, but the flavor seems to have been sucked out of them some what with the magic=psionics (mechanically) ruling. As I've stated previously, I can't use them because I don't have time to re-vamp the system. There ARE many cases where the two could be treated the same (mind affecting magic), but then in other areas like dispelling and counter-magic it just doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me. A psionic dicipline SHOULD work in a dead magic zone, period. House Oblodra were the only Drow that had retained their powers during the ToT, which goes to show that even R.A. Salvatore has the common sense to know that they are COMPLETELY seperate issues. Done right, they have been drastically fixed. But, more so than any other class, they have the largest margin for breaking. Things like Spell Points when incorporated, can break the system as well, which is why the tried and true method is what I, and many I know, still stick to in a campaign.I have to admit, I've been using spell points for years, and I still run into countless problems with player abuse. I thought I had the 'perfect' system at one point... until a new player of mine figured out how to be able to cast unlimited spells by 5th level... :ahem: On the mend or not, I would really like to know why you feel having magic and Psionics interact on levels that make more than perfect sense, is wrong, or a "cop-out".As explained above, I would have to take it on a case by case basis - in many cases the rules are fine as is, but not in every case. To just have a 'blanket' ruling for mechanics sake just doesn't seem right, no matter how much simpler it makes the game. Fortunaetly, I've never had anyone express any interest in using psionics. It's probably a little too Sci-fi for the games I run. Now if I were ever to run Eberron (or even Spelljammer or Dark Sun for that matter), then it would be a different story. It doesn't have the right flavor for FR, despite the fact that 1e Elminster had psionic diciplines. ;)
Red_Wizard 03-10-07, 10:44 AM	The fact that an anti-magic field affects a mental dicipline says it all. :rolleyes: Anti-magic is surpressing the energy that a Wiz/Sorcs mind is channeling. Magic is it's name, but it is still raw energy. Psionics draw, and manipulate energy within/from their mind. Why does it not make sense that something like this will repress both? Seems like an obvious thing to me. After all, the Shadow Weave is repressed by it in the same manner, and they are two completly different weaves. Granted, the RAW are a VAST improvement over previous additions, but until they take the time to seperate them a little better then I would have to say they are still a 'little buggy'. maybe not broken entirely, but the flavor seems to have been sucked out of them some what with the magic=psionics (mechanically) ruling. As I've stated previously, I can't use them because I don't have time to re-vamp the system. There is nothing that needs revamping. Show me what could change, that makes more sense than it does now. Cause so far, you're mentioning things like dead-magic (below) to which Psionics still work within. There ARE many cases where the two could be treated the same (mind affecting magic), but then in other areas like dispelling and counter-magic it just doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me. A psionic dicipline SHOULD work in a dead magic zone, period. In all cases where it makes sense, they interact. In the cases where it doesn't, they don't. They do not work in an Anti-Magic field, but do work in a Dead magic zone. House Oblodra were the only Drow that had retained their powers during the ToT, which goes to show that even R.A. Salvatore has the common sense to know that they are COMPLETELY seperate issues. Which is still the case. You're missing this somehow, and i'm not sure where. When they interact, it makes sense. Like mind effecting, like Dispelling, Like antimagic. When it doesn't make sense they don't. During the ToT's Oblodra did indeed retain their mental abilities, while all others faculties failed. BUT, when the ToT's ended, they lost them, as the pathways through which they were to channel thier abilities had changed. They were unable to reform these mental connections, and so were crushed by house Baenre. Now, this suggests not only a greater influence from the universe, but the potential to instert dead psionic zones in the world. R.A. Salvatore covered his bases well. I have to admit, I've been using spell points for years, and I still run into countless problems with player abuse. I thought I had the 'perfect' system at one point... until a new player of mine figure out how to be able to cast unlimited spells by 5th level... :ahem: I liked the concept, but still prefer the original method of play, as it is less breakable, and truer to novels, so I don't feel the need to try and change everything to suit the alternate system. As explained above, I would have to take it on a case by case basis - in many cases the rules are fine as is, but not in every case. To just have a 'blanket' ruling for mechanics sake just doesn't seem right, no matter how much simpler it makes the game. The "Blanket" ruling is very much case by case. It simple, straight forward, and leaves the obvious choices individually up to the player. There really is nothing to be improved upon. Only thing you could do, is make it easier on everyone, and go through to set out what you think would and wouldn't work. Maybe it saves time for a DM so he doesn't have to think, but it'll slow things down by looking, when it should be fairly obvious what does and doesn't work together. Fortunaetly, I've never had anyone express any interest in using psionics. It's probably a little too Sci-fi for the games I run. Now if I were ever to run Eberron (or even Spelljammer or Dark Sun for that matter), then it would be a different story. It doesn't have the right flavor for FR, despite the fact that 1e Elminster had psionic diciplines. ;) Indeed, I like psionics in my realms for flavour, but I don't let my players decide they're going to suddenly take up the mental assault banner :P. They don't have any wish to though, so it saves hassle. p.s. Don't take anything I say as trying to spark arguments. I'm simply here to debate, and only **** people off when they are to far gone to save from their own ignorance :P :D
MarkusTay63 03-10-07, 11:56 AM	Anti-magic is surpressing the energy that a Wiz/Sorcs mind is channeling. Magic is it's name, but it is still raw energy. Psionics draw, and manipulate energy within/from their mind. Why does it not make sense that something like this will repress both? Seems like an obvious thing to me. After all, the Shadow Weave is repressed by it in the same manner, and they are two completly different weaves.Then it should be called an Energy suppression field, maybe it's just the lingo that bothers me? :confused: There is nothing that needs revamping. Show me what could change, that makes more sense than it does now. Cause so far, you're mentioning things like dead-magic (below) to which Psionics still work within. In all cases where it makes sense, they interact. In the cases where it doesn't, they don't. They do not work in an Anti-Magic field, but do work in a Dead magic zone. Which is still the case. You're missing this somehow, and i'm not sure where. When they interact, it makes sense. Like mind effecting, like Dispelling, Like antimagic. When it doesn't make sense they don't.Which just goes to prove how little I know about the new psionic system. I bought the first book, and read it through (quickly, not paying a whole lot of attention) and thought "this sounds pretty cool... a WORKABLE psionics system that seems to make some sense." I wasn't playing at that time, nor had for awhile, so I didn't get to use the cool new rules. Then a year or so later the EPH came out, and I bought it (because back then I bought EVERYTHING that came out). After thumbing through it, I realized they had made a lot of changes to the system that I HADN'T EVEN USED YET! Disgruntled, I tossed it aside and have not opened it since. A couple years back when my kids and their friends expressed an interest in the game I started up my newest campaign. No one knew about psionics, and I wasn't up to learning something else (being a rusty DM), so we just ignored it. The sessions were fun, and everyone had a good time, so I guess we didn't really miss it at all. So you see, most of my conclusions are drawn from having rushed through the first book, and not ever reallly reading the second, plus whatever little bit I pick up here about psionics (which isn't much on the FR boards). During the ToT's Oblodra did indeed retain their mental abilities, while all others faculties failed. BUT, when the ToT's ended, they lost them, as the pathways through which they were to channel thier abilities had changed. They were unable to reform these mental connections, and so were crushed by house Baenre. Now, this suggests not only a greater influence from the universe, but the potential to instert dead psionic zones in the world. R.A. Salvatore covered his bases well.He really is an excellent writer, despite his obvious lack of interest in mechanics. ;) What that reflected to me though, was that Ao's boss went out and bought the 3e rules, and realized psionics had changed. I love that he included an explanation for why they changed, but it almost seeemed a little contrived just to give a nod to the new rules. That, in a nutshell, is why I have decided (in other threads) that I don't want an explanation for why we suddenly have the Tree cosmology. I used to want one, but then it will seem almost like meta-gaming, writing lore around changes in the rules. That's one of those things that gets people more pist off then not telling us why. Better to live in ignorance, sometimes... :rolleye2: I liked the concept, but still prefer the original method of play, as it is less breakable, and truer to novels, so I don't feel the need to try and change everything to suit the alternate system. I HATE memorized spells, but every single alternate system I have tried broke down somewhere along the way. With spell points, there is absolutely NO reason for players to ever bother with lower level spells. I tried to fix that by adding in a level-based HP cost, so characters would choose more wisely, but since my last group's wizard never made it higher then lev 4 I have no idea if that would have worked out in the long run. Only thing you could do, is make it easier on everyone, and go through to set out what you think would and wouldn't work. Maybe it saves time for a DM so he doesn't have to think, but it'll slow things down by looking, when it should be fairly obvious what does and doesn't work together.Now you've rekindled my interest, and I will have to look into psionics again. p.s. Don't take anything I say as trying to spark arguments. I'm simply here to debate, and only **** people off when they are to far gone to save from their own ignorance :P :DI know you are not, like I said earlier I LIKE when folks prove me wrong. I want to find out new things about D&D and FR. If I knew everything, I certainly wouldn't need to be here asking questions. :P It takes a lot to get under my skin, trust me. As a long standing member of an art site with one of lowest scores on that site, I've learned to grow some pretty thick skin. :D
miscellany 03-10-07, 02:35 PM	We have a player who runs a Psion in our Forgotten Realms game and we learned to not only like it but now enjoy it. It's another layer of FR-themed fun and lets us use all the cool from recent FR sourcebooks about Illithids and stuff like that. We used to not like psionics (well, Mr. Miscellany didn't but like all men he's a little slow on the uptake know what I mean fellow females?) but I told him hey let the player play his psion and we haven't regretted it since so now Mr Miscellany volunteers to run a Psion in the :gasp!: Eberron game we play in whenever the psion player in that game is absent. What to they say oh yeah it's, "Try it. You might like it." :D
Derren S. 03-10-07, 04:16 PM	Though he should get brownie points for trying creative things, even if they don't work as the rules ( fantasy world physics) allow. I disagree strongly with that. When he wants to come up with something creative then he should first learn the rules and after that come up with something that works. Constantly bringing up silly ideas which do not work should not give you anything, even "brownie points".
miscellany 03-10-07, 05:00 PM	I disagree strongly with that. When he wants to come up with something creative then he should first learn the rules and after that come up with something that works. Constantly bringing up silly ideas which do not work should not give you anything, even "brownie points". Mr Miscellany says: I agree and disagree with Derren. On the one hand a player should learn the rules as well as possible for the sake of cohesive, cooperative play. On the other hand a player should try new, crazy and wild things because the rules are designed to allow a DM to adjudicate them instead of just automatically saying, "No". I believe players who know the rules should also be players who get rewarded if they go out of their way to have fun at the table by pushing the limits of what their character can do. Miss Miscellany says: OK so I had a character in our Eberron game try to fast climg down a main mast from the crow's nest and try to swing forward on a rope as the boat rocked forward on a wave so she could hurl her javelin at the last invading Sauhagin at the front of the ship and then when the boat rocked back she tried to swing with the ship via her rope the other way and cut herself loose (after dodging the main mast) so she could leap/land at the back of the ship and grab the ship's wheel because the helmsman got washed overboard and nobody was in control of the ship! My DM didn't say no. He said OK take -1 for your 9 STR and -10 to fast climb. Roll to hit. OK roll Tumble but since you dont' have it just roll your Dex and now roll for Rope Use but you don't have it so just roll your ability modifier and we'll see what happens. I (mostly) succeeded which isn't bad for a 2nd level Cleric with no ranks in Tumble or Climb or Rope use....:D
Dark Wizard 03-10-07, 05:38 PM	I disagree strongly with that. When he wants to come up with something creative then he should first learn the rules and after that come up with something that works. Constantly bringing up silly ideas which do not work should not give you anything, even "brownie points". That's a blunt and imprecise reading of what I said. The OP seemed distressed that the player attempted these actions, attributing them to a number of other, more serious problems and not just a simple misunderstanding of the rules. I merely meant that the DM should not try to stamp out attempts at creative thinking. At the same time the DM should encourage his players to learn the rules if everyone is not on the same page in that area, that goes without saying and others have said so before and after me, I didn't feel that needed repeating.
CainJustice 03-12-07, 07:00 AM	agreed he's not playing like a psion he's just playing like a kid whose too lazy to read the rules. smack him over the head with the rule book and tell him to read it. Just tell him that he can't play unless he reads the rules...or he won't play at all..that's what i did, and my buddy became a great player, and actually thanked me for suspending the game a couple of weeks.
johnkretzer 03-15-07, 12:03 AM	I don't think Ed ever particularly cared for or included psionics in His Realms, so there is argument that it shouldn't be there to begin with if you tend to prefer your Realms to be pure... whatever the hell that means or has to do with the privacy of your game table. Didn't Ed have a character in the Knights of Myth Drannor have be a wild talent? And wasn't that a actualy play group? Which he ran a adventure with the them discovering the character? I mean I am not sure, but it always seemed to me that it was there since the being.
johnkretzer 03-15-07, 12:19 AM	Now add to that the fact, that should you suddenly wish, you can pour all you have into a single attack. So say your on the big boss, or maybe only have on encounter on average a day, alone you are blowing **** to bits, effectivly as a higher level caster might. Add to that your wish to make the two impervious to one anothers assaults, and where does that leave you? Psions using SR items, or abilities, and everyone else left vulnerable to their onslaught. Um just so I am clear about this. Are you saying a psion of lets say 10th level with lets say 50pp(I know they might have less or more but that isn't important) can drop all 50pp into one power? Lets say their equilvant of fireball(which is one level higher by the way) doing 50d6 of damage? Do you even know the rules? First a psion can only use as much pp = to his manifester level. Which means he can only use a 10 pp on any given power(there is a feat that allows him to do more by 1,2 or3 depending on level but he does take damage). This means he does about 10d6 with this psionic fireball...for the cost of a 5.5 level power. Of course he must spend the 10 points to get this power because psionic powers do NOT get free scaling. Also he normally add 1 metapsionic effect on to the power which will eat up the damage dice of the power. A wizard or a sorcerer on the other hand can do a 10d6 fireball for the equilvant cost of 5pp. Can add any number of metamagic effect and while it will up the spell level he will still do 10d6. Though I do use the magic-psionic transparency rules but to me it is just a different way to access the same power. Also it helps keeps wizards from just stamping all over the psion.
Kid SixXx 03-15-07, 08:19 AM	Didn't Ed have a character in the Knights of Myth Drannor have be a wild talent? And wasn't that a actualy play group? Which he ran a adventure with the them discovering the character? I mean I am not sure, but it always seemed to me that it was there since the being. I'm under the belief that the playtesters that portrayed the Knights of Myth Drannor drew up their own stats & IIRC the stat blocks in FR7 Hall of Heroes were written down verbatim from the CRS by John Nephew. I don't think that Ed just arbitrarily gave Merith Strongbow psionic ability, but I could be wrong (most likely I am) since I'm drawing most of this from pure recollection. I am an old guy & they say that memory is the first thing to go. I was always under the impression that Ed gamed with the folks that drafted Company of Crazed Venturers. Did he ever run anything with the Knights? I know that they were early playtesters but I never really heard confirmation of whether or not they actually gamed with Ed. Do you even know the rules? My sentiments exactly. With a skewed view of how psionics works, it's no wonder that subconcious nerf hammers kick in so that psonics is reeled in under the assumption that it is broken.
Zsych 03-17-07, 07:16 AM	I'd say that he should be allowed to do innovative things, if he's willing to give up the damage done by the spell that round. Its a roleplaying game(but having tried running a game without rules.. things do tend to get ugly(or maybe I'm just not good enough.. I hear Ed Greenwood's players don't care much about the rules as such, and basically just roleplay)). Try his way for a while and see if things aren't getting too out of control. Basically, a player needs to know the limits of the character he's playing, and not try to go beyond them in a game destroying way. -- Maybe you could say that low level wizards can't really aim(manage their power) all that well, and thats why the damage represented by the roll of dice varies... sometimes it his something serious, and sometimes it doesn't. ... You need some excuses for why things are the way they are, when dealing with people who can think outside the box. -- I played NWN2 a while back. My main annoyance was the way your actions were so limited. You couldn't open most of the chests even. Now I can understand most of them being empty, but why am I not allowed to try opening them? The point is to experience a fantastic world in an enjoyable way.
Red_Wizard 03-19-07, 03:13 PM	Um just so I am clear about this. Are you saying a psion of lets say 10th level with lets say 50pp(I know they might have less or more but that isn't important) can drop all 50pp into one power? Lets say their equilvant of fireball(which is one level higher by the way) doing 50d6 of damage? My bad, I should have said "can" instead of "have". My point was, you get the choice as to how much you use, when where, and how on the fly. The sorcerer is similar to this, but only in the comparative meta-magic vs. meta-psionic Do you even know the rules? Fortunately I do. Magic more than anything, but enough to be able to properly argue a point when needed. Though I do use the magic-psionic transparency rules but to me it is just a different way to access the same power. Also it helps keeps wizards from just stamping all over the psion. I have never had that issue. It's always been the psion who outdid the wizard. Perhaps a difference in gaming.
Deekin 03-19-07, 03:34 PM	My bad, I should have said "can" instead of "have". My point was, you get the choice as to how much you use, when where, and how on the fly. The sorcerer is similar to this, but only in the comparative meta-magic vs. meta-psionic Fortunately I do. Magic more than anything, but enough to be able to properly argue a point when needed. I have never had that issue. It's always been the psion who outdid the wizard. Perhaps a difference in gaming. Course, PP is still caped by level, and the best nova-er in the game is wiz7/psi3/Celebromancer 10. As for psions outdoing wizards, my psion cry when he sees the duskblades damage output.
Zevox 03-19-07, 06:52 PM	My point was, you get the choice as to how much you use, when where, and how on the fly. Theres both an advantage and a disadvantage to that. As you say, they can choose how much to invest in a manifestation on the fly. But on the other side of the coin, they can't get the full power of their powers without investing more into them. Their Energy Bolt manifested at normal power will always do 5d6 (+-5) damage, whereas a 10th level Wizard spends the same spell slot on a 10d6 lightning bolt as he did on a 5d6 one at level 5. There are advantages and disadvantages to each way of doing things, and if you ask me neither is more powerful. I would however say that Wizards are more powerful overall, due to how many more things they can do that Psions cannot. Nearly the entire Illusion school isn't represented among psionics, as are many Necromancy spells. Psions can't buff their allies, since nearly all of their support powers are personal range. Plenty of specific and potent spells are lacking in psionic equivalents - Evard's Black Tentacles, Scorching Ray, Stoneskin, Globes of Invulnerability, the list goes on and on. Theres simply so much Wizards can do that Psions can't that I can hardly believe anyone thinks Psionics are better. Zevox
johnkretzer 03-19-07, 10:01 PM	My bad, I should have said "can" instead of "have". My point was, you get the choice as to how much you use, when where, and how on the fly. The sorcerer is similar to this, but only in the comparative meta-magic vs. meta-psionic Fortunately I do. Magic more than anything, but enough to be able to properly argue a point when needed. I have never had that issue. It's always been the psion who outdid the wizard. Perhaps a difference in gaming. Evidently you didn't get the point. A weizard or sorcerer always get the maxium effect from their spells. A Psion have to pay it and faces a cap on how much he can spend. You do understand about the cap right?
Red_Wizard 03-19-07, 10:19 PM	Evidently you didn't get the point. A weizard or sorcerer always get the maxium effect from their spells. A Psion have to pay it and faces a cap on how much he can spend. You do understand about the cap right? Yes I do. I also get that with your example of even 50pp, he could get 7 of the psions equivalent fireballs from it, and one of them could be one higher to boot.
johnkretzer 03-20-07, 10:06 PM	Yes I do. I also get that with your example of even 50pp, he could get 7 of the psions equivalent fireballs from it, and one of them could be one higher to boot. And a Wizard could get 4 at max effect and have 4 4th level and 4 5th level spells. A sorcerer can get more than 7 at max effect. I won't go into detail how many other spell slots they get of higher level.
Red_Wizard 03-20-07, 10:47 PM	And a Wizard could get 4 at max effect and have 4 4th level and 4 5th level spells. A sorcerer can get more than 7 at max effect. I won't go into detail how many other spell slots they get of higher level. And a wizard has to pick and choose, and hope he picked right, and a Sorcerer has loads of slots, but limited spell selection, and he can't have more fireballs than he has the slots of the level. Which isn't comparible to the psion who has all his abilities, availible on the fly, any time, in any combination, no restrictions beyond how many PP he has. On average you fight three encounters a day. But who knows what they will be? Not the wizard preparing a fly, a fireball, a haste, and lets say with the right feat, leaving the last open for free. But along comes mister psion, and say statistically with three fights, the first two fights just happened to be a cake walk, and the last is the boss of the place. Who is more effective now? Lets say the Wizard used a fireball, the sorcerer used two, and the psion used two. Hmm, who is gonna hurt the boss the most now? Well, the wizard is spent for the day, the sorcerer has a couple more in him, but then oops, the BBEG has SR. Oh, but here comes the psion, who has it so unfair. Better make his abilities separate from the magic side of things for balance. Oh, you mean he just hit the boss with 5 psionic blasts, and there was no SR for them? Well, lets just get his gold then guys, and head on out. *Psion dusts off hands*. The point is, to give the Psion another way to trump magic users would be silly. Sure there are still saves, but for some things like SR, both natural and spell granted, the way some would have it, would mean that the arcane guys would have to bring lawn chairs along from now on, as their roles would have been completly trumped. As it is, the rules are fine. BTW, if you wanna increase the spell level in question to incorporate 5th level spells, you are looking at 9th level, that is 72 minimum PP they have by that level....Just a couple more Psionic attacks with that. Then we'll say he was lucky and rolled an 18, or was using point buy, and took an 18 in his stat. What happens? Oh, looks like another 18 pp to spend. Thats another 2 attacks there. Now what about items.....Oh the possibilities.
johnkretzer 03-20-07, 11:08 PM	And a wizard has to pick and choose, and hope he picked right, and a Sorcerer has loads of slots, but limited spell selection, and he can't have more fireballs than he has the slots of the level. Which isn't comparible to the psion who has all his abilities, availible on the fly, any time, in any combination, no restrictions beyond how many PP he has. On average you fight three encounters a day. But who knows what they will be? Not the wizard preparing a fly, a fireball, a haste, and lets say with the right feat, leaving the last open for free. But along comes mister psion, and say statistically with three fights, the first two fights just happened to be a cake walk, and the last is the boss of the place. Who is more effective now? Lets say the Wizard used a fireball, the sorcerer used two, and the psion used two. Hmm, who is gonna hurt the boss the most now? Well, the wizard is spent for the day, the sorcerer has a couple more in him, but then oops, the BBEG has SR. Oh, but here comes the psion, who has it so unfair. Better make his abilities separate from the magic side of things for balance. Oh, you mean he just hit the boss with 5 psionic blasts, and there was no SR for them? Well, lets just get his gold then guys, and head on out. *Psion dusts off hands*. The point is, to give the Psion another way to trump magic users would be silly. Sure there are still saves, but for some things like SR, both natural and spell granted, the way some would have it, would mean that the arcane guys would have to bring lawn chairs along from now on, as their roles would have been completly trumped. As it is, the rules are fine. BTW, if you wanna increase the spell level in question to incorporate 5th level spells, you are looking at 9th level, that is 72 minimum PP they have by that level....Just a couple more Psionic attacks with that. Then we'll say he was lucky and rolled an 18, or was using point buy, and took an 18 in his stat. What happens? Oh, looks like another 18 pp to spend. Thats another 2 attacks there. Now what about items.....Oh the possibilities. Have you actualy seen a psion in play? Also if you run your encounters as predicable has to have 'boss fights' I am amazed that wizards and sorcerers don't own your game as well.
miscellany 03-21-07, 03:10 AM	I'm actually mentoring/teaching a new player in our Eberron game how to play a psion...it's tough but he's catching on. His favorite power is Astral Construct. He also recently grasped the concept of how to combo the Ring of X-Ray vision his (borrowed) psion character has with his feat to manifest powers (such as Energy Ray) through solid objects. All of a sudden the player who was 'Mr. back-of-the-group, someone please tell me what to do!' is now up towards teh front of the marching order, wanting to scan walls and doors for traps and asking if he can melt heads off of undead monsters and whatever else we run into. Psions are fun! :D
Red_Wizard 03-21-07, 11:18 AM	Have you actualy seen a psion in play? Also if you run your encounters as predicable has to have 'boss fights' I am amazed that wizards and sorcerers don't own your game as well. It was an example man, were I to run something even close to a "boss" fight, it would not be evident, nor as obvious as a big flashing sign, and a final load scene. The point was, where the others must reserve and guess, the psion can commit, and keep going in all the average encounters that will happen. Do I think they are overpowered? In many ways yes. Do I think the system of making them affect, and be affected by magic makes sense? I do. But I do not think they are as broken as they could be, nor do I shy away from allowing them to be played under the right circumstances. The point of it all was though, to clarify that magic transparency issue. There is no reason it should be otherwise.
Zsych 03-22-07, 07:07 AM	On a mostly irrelevant point... I thought that Psionics changing might have had something to do with Auppensor starting to wake up(perhaps on his way to restoring Psionics to the Jhaamdath days... in a few centuries)
johnkretzer 03-23-07, 05:45 PM	It was an example man, were I to run something even close to a "boss" fight, it would not be evident, nor as obvious as a big flashing sign, and a final load scene. The point was, where the others must reserve and guess, the psion can commit, and keep going in all the average encounters that will happen. Do I think they are overpowered? In many ways yes. Do I think the system of making them affect, and be affected by magic makes sense? I do. But I do not think they are as broken as they could be, nor do I shy away from allowing them to be played under the right circumstances. The point of it all was though, to clarify that magic transparency issue. There is no reason it should be otherwise. A psion still has limited resouces compared to a Sorcerer or a Wizard. He just has more flexibilty then they do. But if he spends himself earlier(which is alot easier for him to do then say a wizard or a sorcerer) it is just like a wizard or sorcerer who did. Also I am not argueing against transparency...I just don't understand how psions could be considered more powerful then a wizard? But ultimatly I believe in the transparency because it already exists between divine magic and arcane magic.
Red_Wizard 03-23-07, 06:30 PM	I guess we'll have to agree to disagree then man :)
Stigger 03-23-07, 06:53 PM	I have no idea how a psionic character would be more powerful than a wizard or sorcerer... more versatile, sure, but ultimately more limited in what they can affect with their powers, and how they can go about affecting things with those powers. Having put together some high level ones just to see how they work, I have to admit, I wasn't that impressed with them overall. As buff monkeys, they're really excellent, and I could see where they would outstrip wizards and sorcerers in party support effects pretty easily. But having said that, in almost any other role, they tend to come up sub-par comparatively, in general. At least as far as I could tell.
Zevox 03-23-07, 07:19 PM	As buff monkeys, they're really excellent, and I could see where they would outstrip wizards and sorcerers in party support effects pretty easily. Wha :confused: ? Are you looking at different books than I am? My XPH has virtually no buff powers for psions that aren't range personal. Zevox
Stigger 03-24-07, 01:30 AM	Was more referring to the communication, coordination, and information abilities as far as party support went actually. Guess that didn't come across too well re-reading what I posted up there.
johnkretzer 03-24-07, 12:30 PM	I guess we'll have to agree to disagree then man :) Yup...but that is OK.
redmagefish 03-28-07, 06:58 AM	slap your play up side the head ever 30 secs see if he firgues it out :invasion: :invasion: :invasion: :invasion: :invasion: :invasion: :invasion: :invasion: :invasion: :invasion: :invasion: the smily faces are coming the smily faces are coming
The WarOverlord 03-30-07, 06:55 AM	Yeah, With the destruction of the Old Mystra during the Times of Troubles a lot of things were messed up...including the Natives abilitiy to be Mentalist Wizards known as Psions (3rd eddition Psionics) as Mystra melding with the land cause such ability to cease (proving it was magic based in FR) True Psionics (2nd eddition Psionics like on Athas) is not found in Native Torilians either though visitors or Transplants from other worlds like the Mind Flayers have such ability. Um, If he won't invest in the book for Either Version, then don't let him be a Psionist/Psion....though 3x5 Flip cards as mentioned in the 2nd eddition handbook not only makes things easier but brings kind of a "magic the Gathering" type of feel to Psionic comabt (for better or worse)
ClobberinTime 04-02-07, 11:39 AM	Psions are great at churning out huge amounts of damage short term, and are good BBEBG killers, Energy Ray for instance can churn out any kind of energy on the fly, and has no save like the 8th level spell Polar Ray. However if they turn it up so to speak they are going to use up all of their PPTs quick, so they lack the endurance of a Wizard or Sorc. The major advantage of the Psion is the ability to wear armor with no armor check penalty.
Deekin 04-02-07, 12:10 PM	Psions are great at churning out huge amounts of damage short term, and are good BBEBG killers, Energy Ray for instance can churn out any kind of energy on the fly, and has no save like the 8th level spell Polar Ray. Yep, and if it is doing the same damage as polar ray, then the psion must be paying at least 15 power points. I would also like to point out that first level spell magic missile, the one that never misses and has no save, is the same level as energy ray. Both are still stopped by a lesser globe of invulnerability. However if they turn it up so to speak they are going to use up all of their PPTs quick, so they lack the endurance of a Wizard or Sorc. That's true, Psions go "nova" easier than wizards or Sorcs, but Wizards and sorcs are better at it. The major advantage of the Psion is the ability to wear armor with no armor check penalty. You mean Arcane spell failure, just like the Cleric or druid, only the Divine casters have better BAB.
ClobberinTime 04-03-07, 07:56 PM	The only difference is in the damage, or did they nerf it in Complet Psionic, I'll check when I get home. A 7th level caster does an average of 14 hps with a MM, a 7th level psion does an average of 24.5 hps with an energy ray. at 9th its worse. The other best thing about the Psion is the ability to use whatever type of energy you want on the fly.
Alac Luin 04-03-07, 08:12 PM	The only difference is in the damage, or did they nerf it in Complet Psionic, I'll check when I get home. A 7th level caster does an average of 14 hps with a MM, a 7th level psion does an average of 24.5 hps with an energy ray. at 9th its worse. The other best thing about the Psion is the ability to use whatever type of energy you want on the fly. This isn't really a fair comparison. The to get the result you are talking about the psion needs to expend, what 7X the normal amount of his resorces. Does the wizard need to cast his MM 7 times for the stated amount of damage?
Eled_the_Worm_Tamer 04-03-07, 09:09 PM	Also MM hits atomaticly, Energy ray is a ranged touch.
Zevox 04-04-07, 05:12 PM	The only difference is in the damage, or did they nerf it in Complet Psionic, I'll check when I get home. A 7th level caster does an average of 14 hps with a MM, a 7th level psion does an average of 24.5 hps with an energy ray. at 9th its worse. The other best thing about the Psion is the ability to use whatever type of energy you want on the fly. A 7th level psion does an average 24.5 with an elec energy ray (or 17.5 with sonic or 31.5 with cold/fire), yes. To do that they expend 7 power points, the equivalent of a 4th level wizard spell. A 7th level wizard expends a 1st level spell, the equivalent of 1 power point for a psion, to do an average 14 hp of damage with his magic missile shot. The magic missile never misses at a range of 170'. The energy ray is a ranged touch attack with a range of 40'. The magic missile can only be resisted by a specific spell (shield), a specific item (brooch of shielding), or SR. The energy ray can be resisted by energy resistance (available from many sources), SR, or can simply miss (due to a bad attack roll, a foe with a high touch AC, or concealment). Can you honestly tell me you think the psion's energy ray is the better deal of the two? Zevox
Ramar Aulinvox 04-06-07, 12:18 PM	Yeah, With the destruction of the Old Mystra during the Times of Troubles a lot of things were messed up...including the Natives abilitiy to be Mentalist Wizards known as Psions (3rd eddition Psionics) as Mystra melding with the land cause such ability to cease (proving it was magic based in FR) True Psionics (2nd eddition Psionics like on Athas) is not found in Native Torilians either though visitors or Transplants from other worlds like the Mind Flayers have such ability. Um, If he won't invest in the book for Either Version, then don't let him be a Psionist/Psion....though 3x5 Flip cards as mentioned in the 2nd eddition handbook not only makes things easier but brings kind of a "magic the Gathering" type of feel to Psionic comabt (for better or worse) Where are you getting that information about Mystra messing with psionics? The Time of Troubles was the transition between 1st ed. and 2nd ed. In 1st edition, there was no psionic class; it was merely an extra ability that some had similar to a template. In the switch over, psionics became its own class while the old 1st ed flavor was left in the wild talent abilities. This transition had nothing to do with Mystra since psionics remained usable while magic went wild (see Starless Night for a nice narrative transition through the process or the 2nd ed. Forgotten Realms Adventures for the official conversion notes). The psions, psychic warriors, wilders, & soulknives are all revisions (re-conceptualizations?) of the 2nd ed psionics system; although, soulknives came out of left field. I would argue that true psionics do exist and have existed for some time. For instance, Elminster of Shadowdale had psionic ability up till the 3rd edition.
Ramenth 04-06-07, 05:33 PM	Psions do exist in the forgotten realms. The actual campaign setting book says to treat psionics like magic (which I dislike and ignore). In R.A. Salvatores books there is a whole Drow house that uses psionics instead of clerics in their worship of the goddess Lloth. I can say that in his books they initially lost their mind powers during the time of troubles but they 'rerouted' the connections in their brown to reacquire them. Because magic (both arcane and divine) was iffy and nonfunctional during the time of troubles but this psionic house was able to regain theres, I prefer to go with that and say its different from arcane magic. Now, back to the point. It is certain more rare and I doubt he can expect to find random psionic magical items often (if at all) but I would allow him to be a psion if you have no problem with reading up on and learning the psionic rules. They didn't reroute their abilities. They were slaughtered by Banera. :O
Red_Wizard 04-06-07, 09:47 PM	They didn't reroute their abilities. They were slaughtered by Banera. :O Actually, you are both minorly right, but over all incorrect. During the Time of Troubles Psionics were completely unnaffected, giving psions the upper hand over others suffering from the malfunctioning magic. BUT, at the end of the ToTs, when Ao reinstated the gods, and reordered his little mess, the Pathways through which psions channeled their energy was changed, thus temporarily blunting their effectivness. Now for the mind flayers, this fix was simple, as they are basically a hive mind, but for others of a more singular mind, the adjustment was much slower, and for house Oblodra non existant. Baenre capitalized on the weakness the house then suffered, and with Lolths favour, she magically pulled the place into the rift the house sat on. I would argue that true psionics do exist and have existed for some time. For instance, Elminster of Shadowdale had psionic ability up till the 3rd edition. Indeed, though While elminster has never shown, and thus never should have been statted with psionic abilities, Faerun lore wise has theoretically always had psions. The prime example of this being the ancient empire of Jhaamdath that now sits on the bottom of the sea of fallen stars.
Ramar Aulinvox 04-07-07, 07:28 PM	I believe young Elminster used psionics in Elminster: The Making of a Mage. You have to remember that psionics were, when this whole game started, just a little extra power that some individuals had when they were 1st level [you got all the psionic power you were ever going to have at first level]. As the game has grown and the rules changed, some characters lost their psionic abilities b/c the 3/3.5 version requires levels or a specific feat that does even little justice to the wild talent ability of 2nd ed. I would agree that Elminster shouldn't have psionic abilities in 3/3.5 ed; but that doesn't change the fact that psionics have always been a part of the Forgotten Realms, even if just a minor one.
ClobberinTime 04-09-07, 02:32 PM	Like you guys already said the Psion's greatest asset is flexibility, if you feel you need to churn out lots of damage quick the Psion is great. Against lots of Minions MM is better, agains a BBEBG energy ray is better. One thing psions do have in their favor is that they can modify the energy type on the fly, wizards have to waste feats to do the same thing. For my money I would take the Psion, just because adventuring is 90% minions, and 10% BBEBG, but the chances of dying are 10% minions, 90% BBEBG.
Faraer 04-09-07, 03:12 PM	Elminster has psionics, and that's independent of ruleset. Lots of Realms characters have similar minor abilities and possessions that their game writeups don't represent. For most humans and demihumans in the Realms, the Invisible Art is indeed 'just a little extra power': psionic wild talents, though rare, are much more common than psionic specialists. The WarOverlord above is referring to a paragraph in Forgotten Realms Adventures:Whatever the case, psionics as handled in the AD&D game (and detailed in the Realms by the superior monograph "Mind over Muscle" by Cuthbert the Unready) no longer exists. Detractors of psionics state that it has never existed, while supporters say that it did once, but the death and merging of Mystra with the nature of the Realms itself has modified it beyond human scope, and the long process of rediscovery must begin again.The 'no longer exists' was a clumsy way of adapting the Realms to match the latest (2E) rules (before psionics was brought back in PHBR5), which I disliked then as much as when it happened again in 2001. Note that linking the Invisible Art to Mystra is given as an in-Realms hypothesis -- one which I doubt, since it contradicts other pre-Player's Guide to Faerūn psionics lore.
Burningspear 04-09-07, 06:12 PM	Well, as others have said, Psionics do indeed exist in the Realms. There was even an ancient kingdom called Jhaamdath that was a Psiocracy, and theres a God of Psionics and Enlightenment, Auppenser, who is now in a coma after losing most of his worshipers when Jhaamdath fell. In all accounts he should have been dead, The exact same thing happened to Amaunator, (the "instant" killing of huge amounts of followers by some disaster), and he died over some 1000 years, so getting a psionic god now only go in coma is letting him of VERY lightly in my opinion. but sorry to digress from the main conversation, magic vs psionics in F.R.
Zevox 04-09-07, 10:03 PM	In all accounts he should have been dead, The exact same thing happened to Amaunator, (the "instant" killing of huge amounts of followers by some disaster), and he died over some 1000 years, so getting a psionic god now only go in coma is letting him of VERY lightly in my opinion. but sorry to digress from the main conversation, magic vs psionics in F.R. Mystra put him into that coma to prevent Psionics from disappearing from Faerūn with his death - had she not done this, he would indeed have definitely died. No one did such a thing for Aumantor, so he died. Zevox
Burningspear 04-09-07, 10:07 PM	Mystra put him into that coma to prevent Psionics from disappearing from Faerūn with his death - had she not done this, he would indeed have definitely died. No one did such a thing for Aumantor, so he died. Zevox How noble, how sickeningly social of her, Yuck, lets get a god to siphon his power off of him and let him die properly, tss :tie:
GothicDan 04-10-07, 01:27 AM	Sickeningly social..? It's statements like this that make me a bit peery about actually supporting the roleplaying community at large.
The Ubbergeek 04-10-07, 07:32 AM	Strange for me who criticize the Gygaxesque level of worship that he often get from some fans, but Ed Greenwood stated there is psionic in his vision of Forgotten Realms, in his very home games. So, if he take it, well... It should be compactible. I heard that executive in TSR used to downplay some elements of D&D who featured as key points of some settings in the rest of them - like psionic outside of Dark Sun. So...
Red_Wizard 04-10-07, 08:51 AM	I believe young Elminster used psionics in Elminster: The Making of a Mage. I don't recall this, please provide a page, or I can check when I'm off work. This being said, make sure it couldn't be something mage hand, or telekinesis could do, as spells could easily account for anything like this.
Ramar Aulinvox 04-10-07, 10:10 AM	I don't recall the page off the top of my head but I believe that it occurred when he was running around with the Athalantar rebels (his fighter and rogue years). As for it being able to be represented by a spell, I don't see how that would mitigate the fact that Elminster had psionics. In every write-up that I can remember from 1st through 2nd ed. El had psionics (1st) or a wild talent (2nd). You could try and re-envision him if you wanted to but it doesn't change the fact that he had psionics any more than the switch from 1st to 2nd put a cap on damage for spells (the change still sticks but at the time in question the caps don't apply). From the previous example, the change over that is determinative is from 1st to 2nd ed. not 2nd to 3/3.5. It was from the 1st to 2nd ed. that psionics got the greatest work over and any change in question to the psionic powers (which co-incided with the Time of Troubles) is present at this time. There was no Realms shaking event that marked the change from 2nd to 3rd ed. and nothing else in the Realms' Lore that would suggest that a huge remaking of how psionics worked has occured post the Year of Shadows.
Burningspear 04-10-07, 10:59 AM	Sickeningly social..? It's statements like this that make me a bit peery about actually supporting the roleplaying community at large. Why is that? i am only showing my opinion in a sarcastic way, namely that i think it very sad some of my favorite gods are just being written of by the dozens in 1 serie, and they are being regarded as dead in canon, and when another god "died" in a new canon book, they add some "in my eyes silly game text" that he has been put in come so he can survive his fall and still grant spells. Very nice of him, they should have done the same for those other 10 gods that ppl favor so much, not just one newly concepted god in a newly editioned book.