Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Omya 03-27-06, 10:37 AM	Where do I start? Have any groups here ran the TOEE adventure in the Forgotten Realms, what changes did you make and what problems should I take into consideration when changing TOEE from Greyhawk to the realms?
Petrankov 03-27-06, 11:59 AM	I placed the Temple of Elemental Evil south of Impultir, somewhat deep underground. I have yet to run this section of my adventure so I have not exectly fleshed out who is there. I have a retired PC as the main villain at the moment. I actually placed Hollowfaust from the Scarred Lands in the same area and made them opposing forces. The point in large part for the Temple of Elemental Evil is a cover for Iuz to return from his imprisonment. In the Realms depending on what year you run in and what part of the realms you place it in, you could substitute Bane for Iuz. Other than that off the the top of my head I cannot think of anything else. The Temple could also be placed in the South in the Jungle of Chult, Maztica or Anuroch and they would probably all make sense.
EytanBernstein 03-27-06, 01:33 PM	I have friends who ran it in Faerun and put it in Halruaa. They seemed to enjoy it there. When I ran (despite loving FR), I put it in Greyhawk and embraced my 1980s memories. In FR, you could tie it to the Zhents, perhaps placing it in or around Yulash. Moander would be a perfect deity for people to try and bring back.
ericlboyd 03-27-06, 02:32 PM	I've always placed it in the Flooded Forest, subbing Moander for Zuggtmoy and Xvim for Iuz. However, the previous post on Impiltur inspired an alternate thought. What if the ToEE is actually the Citadel of Conjurers (see Champions of Ruin and FR9 - Bloodstone Lands)? Then Zuggtmoy can be herself and Iuz can be replaced by Eltab. --Eric
Omya 03-27-06, 07:46 PM	I placed the Temple of Elemental Evil south of Impultir, somewhat deep underground. I have yet to run this section of my adventure so I have not exectly fleshed out who is there. I have a retired PC as the main villain at the moment. I actually placed Hollowfaust from the Scarred Lands in the same area and made them opposing forces. The point in large part for the Temple of Elemental Evil is a cover for Iuz to return from his imprisonment. In the Realms depending on what year you run in and what part of the realms you place it in, you could substitute Bane for Iuz. Other than that off the the top of my head I cannot think of anything else. The Temple could also be placed in the South in the Jungle of Chult, Maztica or Anuroch and they would probably all make sense. Thanks for posting. Due to previous campaigns (and in keeping with the timeline) I will be making the next one 1374DR: the year of lightning storms. Would you care to elaborate on your opinions and ideas for using Chult, Maztica and Anauroch as the place to have the TOEE?
Omya 03-27-06, 07:48 PM	In FR, you could tie it to the Zhents, perhaps placing it in or around Yulash. This is intriguing, why involve the Zhents? :)
Alac Luin 03-27-06, 09:17 PM	I will first admit that I have little knowledge of Iuz, and I have not run this module. I have read through it though, and as it feels like a massive "dungeon crawl", much of the history is almost irrelevent. While reading the module, I felt this could easily be a plot to allow Ghaunadaur to manifest on Toril, the deity himself, not just an avatar. Perhaps Ghaunadaur isn't happy makeing the move with Lolth ;) In 2ed, Ghaunadaur's elemental aspects were more apparent. EDIT: I may be wrong about what I'm talking about, I was speeking about the 3.0 module, not the original, which I have never seen.
Petrankov 03-28-06, 12:47 PM	I was talking about the original, not the 3.0 version for Iuz's plot. The original was better I thought. Thanks for the post Eric I will have to take that idea into consideration as well. As far as Maztica, Chult and Anauroch. The reason why these kind of make sense to me as viable locations is because of their relative remoteness. Not too many Chosen or adventuring groups running around to have already gotten to those areas and dealt with a threat as big as TOEE. With the amount of activity it would take to stock such an elaborate dungeon I would think some isolation is required. I guess it really depends on how you like your game. I run two games: 1) Pure hack and slash Undermountain gauntlet running. 2) An epic level, slow build up, very confusing multi plot/multi layered campaign exploring the backgrounds of the PC's. Nothing is coincidental and all encounters have a purpose, ala the way Ravenloft in 2ed suggested games be run. (With a small sprinkling of true wandering monsters when they travel overland for long distances.) I have a back story for why the TOEE is there, who is running it and what the goals of those villains are. It is not a random dungeon. That being said since I do not know what sort of long running villains are in your game it is hard for me to elaborate further on my Maztica et al idea. I like Eric's idea about Xvim (I thought the adventure describing his rebirth in Ruins of Zhentil Keep was a bit forced.) But in 1374 he is already dead. Moandar makes sense too but you could just keep the whole returning god aspect out of it depending on what your NPC stockpile is and what style game you run. I want badly to introduce a Half Celestial/Half Fiend NPC as an antihero or villain have not made up my mind yet (sort of a Preacher, if you read that comic series, type of story). Maybe you start there and take it away. Hope this all helps.
Halidan 03-28-06, 06:00 PM	I've also worked on placing TOEE in the realms. I originally posted some of the following information on the Realms-L listserve back in 2001. Like Eric, I placed parts of the module in the Flodded Forest of the Vast. I designed a PBEM set in Harrowdale that was the first part of Temple of Elemental Evil. The temple in Hommlet to St. Cuthbert was replaced by a chapel to Torm that also included small shrines to the rest of his triad. The druid in Hommlet was replaced by a specialty priest of Chauntea. The evil dieties required a more complicated change. I eliminated all fo the references to Lloth. The roles of Zuggtmoy and Iuz were combined and then replaced by Moander. I also changed the timeline of the campaign. Rather than have the module take place only a couple of decades after the rise of the TOEE, it takes places centuries after the original temple flourished. The original temple was founded as a result of an alliance between Moander and the Princes of Evil Elementals (Yan-C-Bin, Ogramach, etc). None of the princes had a presence in the Realms and Moander needed some allies who wouldn't steal his own worshipers away from him. They established a temple in the mostly vacant land just east of the Cormanthor (after the dwarves of Saraphil were massacred by the drow/duergar alliance). From the temple, they attempted to control the area around modern-day Mulmaster and the River Lis. The original temple was defeated by a combination of the Dwarves of the Dragonspine Mountains, the humans of ancient Phlan, the elves of Myth Drannor and the mysterious power inhabiting Ironfang Keep. The elves used ancient magic (provided by Ironfang) to trap a small portion of Moander's essence in the lowest level of the temple. (NB - Later, the elves would use this same ritual on Moander's Avatar in the southern Cormanthor and then eventually against his avatar in Yulash). As far as Maztica, Chult and Anauroch. The reason why these kind of make sense to me as viable locations is because of their relative remoteness. Not too many Chosen or adventuring groups running around to have already gotten to those areas and dealt with a threat as big as TOEE. With the amount of activity it would take to stock such an elaborate dungeon I would think some isolation is required. I don't necessarily agree with you on this point. The TOEE (as written) was just starting to rebuild/its forces. It's been able to do so quietly up to this point, but now, the raids and bandit activity are starting to be noticed - that's how the low level PC's get involved. This means that it can be placed closer to civilization. I placed the moathouse in the Flooded Forest, the small pirate village of Nulb on the River Dalton and the main Temple near the junction of the Giantspike and Earthspur Mountains. Just a few ideas. Hope they're helpful.
EytanBernstein 03-28-06, 09:21 PM	This is intriguing, why involve the Zhents? :) It fits with Yulash geographically pretty well and you need cultist goons. The Cult of the Dragon could work as well, but the Zhents seem a more generic evil that would require less alterations. Either way, you need a large temple complex and people to populate it. It's easiest to pick evil organizations prone to these sorts of compounds in FR. Eric's idea of using the Citadel of Conjurers is quite good as well. I like the regional feel. The isolation adds to the mood of the adventure.
Petrankov 03-29-06, 03:55 PM	"I don't necessarily agree with you on this point. The TOEE (as written) was just starting to rebuild/its forces. It's been able to do so quietly up to this point, but now, the raids and bandit activity are starting to be noticed - that's how the low level PC's get involved. This means that it can be placed closer to civilization. I placed the moathouse in the Flooded Forest, the small pirate village of Nulb on the River Dalton and the main Temple near the junction of the Giantspike and Earthspur Mountains." I suppose this is true, but it is stocked awfully full for something that is "just" starting to rebuild its forces. Then again is this the Return to TOEE you are talking about or the original. :) I am pretty sure the original was never invaded before the players get there. But I am not 100% sure about that at the moment.
Evergreen_Aldaron 03-29-06, 04:28 PM	I placed it in the Bloodstone lands, in Vaasa after the fall of the Witchking. Tied it into Zuggtmoy and the Citadel of Assassins. Worked out pretty well.
ericlboyd 03-29-06, 05:39 PM	"I don't necessarily agree with you on this point. The TOEE (as written) was just starting to rebuild/its forces. It's been able to do so quietly up to this point, but now, the raids and bandit activity are starting to be noticed - that's how the low level PC's get involved. This means that it can be placed closer to civilization. I placed the moathouse in the Flooded Forest, the small pirate village of Nulb on the River Dalton and the main Temple near the junction of the Giantspike and Earthspur Mountains." I suppose this is true, but it is stocked awfully full for something that is "just" starting to rebuild its forces. Then again is this the Return to TOEE you are talking about or the original. :) I am pretty sure the original was never invaded before the players get there. But I am not 100% sure about that at the moment. The original was also set at a point in time when it was recovering from being sacked by the forces of good. The unpublished, original, original, was Gary Gygax's second campaign. (Old players, new characters, IIRC.) They sacked it the first time. "Temple of Elemental Evil" was for the PCs, returning years after the supposed success of Gygax's players. "Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil" is actually the third go around in the GH chronoloogy. --Eric
Zanan 03-30-06, 02:44 AM	I placed my Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil campaign in the eastern reaches of Damara, just north of the Giantspire Mountains. The Damarans were all assembling an army near the Bloodstone Pass, given reports of a new thread rising in Vaasa. The group were to check on any (magical) incursions of "evildoers" in the hinterland and did stumble over the Zhengyi-successor-inspired revival of the cult. The Temple of Elemental Evil is going on at essentially the very same place. Suggestion with regard to deities / demon lords have already been given, I used Ghaunadaur first and foremost.
Petrankov 03-30-06, 02:47 PM	It would be interesting to see the first go around for the Temple. :D Thanks for the info Eric.
Omya 03-31-06, 03:18 AM	One of the factors I enjoyed while reading the over the adventure is how the god 'Tharizdun' was defeated and esentially 'locked out' of Greyhawk, then stricken from all records and effectively 'banned' from the world. If I were to somehow use Tharizdun himself in the adventure (simply saying the deity is now trying its luck in the realms after such a defeat in the Greyhawk world) how would I go about doing that? Portals exist from Oerth to Toril so I thought a particularly devoted cleric of Tharizun may have traveled to faerun in order to rebuild the temple there. In the Lords of Madness sourcebook it hints that Ghaunadaur, The Patient One and Tharizdun are all connected somehow. My players are all good aligned this time (one has even chosen to be a paladin of Ilmater) so It would be suitibly 'epic' in scope to have those three insane deities set themselves up as the 'anti-triad' in the realms and pit the players against something truly evil. Thoughts and comments welcome.
Halidan 03-31-06, 09:18 AM	One of the factors I enjoyed while reading the over the adventure is how the god 'Tharizdun' was defeated and esentially 'locked out' of Greyhawk, then stricken from all records and effectively 'banned' from the world. If I were to somehow use Tharizdun himself in the adventure (simply saying the deity is now trying its luck in the realms after such a defeat in the Greyhawk world) how would I go about doing that? I think that Tharizdun could be added to the Realms without too much difficulty. From his description in Complete Divine, Tharizdun wants to unmake the entire cosmos - destroying everything (including himself). If that was the case, he certainly wouldn't confine himself to just Greyspace. The question you have to answer first would be is Tharizdun a new intruder to the Realms or has he had a hidden presence in FR for ages? Personally, if he's a new intruder, then he's either found a way around Ao's rules or Ao has given him permission to grant spells in Realmspace. Either of those are somewhat tricky to justify in my mind, so I'd probably go with him having an ancient presence. There are several suitable Powers of madness and/or destruction that you might want to use: Moander is an ancient god of rot and decay. He's probably too nature orientated for a close match to Tharizdun - at least as he's depicted in Greyhawk canon. But, there's nothing to say that the method of unmaking all of reality would have to take the same form across each game world. If you'r willing to take liberties with Tharizdun's methodology, it certainly could work. Garagos was an ancient diety of fury and destruction who's said to have been recently "awakened." He was not originaly focused only on destruction, but perhaps he turns that way in this newest incarnation. Eshadow is the Chultan diety of destruction and fear. Again, it's not a perfect match for Tharizdun's desire to see all of reality unmade, but it's not too far off. Perhaps on of the best matches isn't a diety at all, but Dendar the Night Serpent. Dendar is one of the Elder Elemental Evils. Created in the pre-history of Toril, she is said to be the original nightmare of the first being to sleep in Realmspace. Dendar is the harbinger of the end of the world, the gods, and the entire crystal of Realmspace. That's as close to Tarizdun as you'll find in Realms canon. Just a couple of ideas.
Petrankov 03-31-06, 01:02 PM	I considered using Tharizdun as well in the adventure, but because my players just are not even close to sniffing the adventure yet I have not delved into it too deeply. Tharizdun could just be a deity that was oushed out of FR a WAAAY long time ago if you want him to be. Don't have to follow canon. You can include him as an entity that is trying to come back but the reason for the lack of knowldege is because his whole history was wiped from existence and the TOEE is the last place left on Toril that has any information about him! I like that idea. He does not have to try to come into Realmspace, he has always been here. Richard Lee Byers wrote a trilogy for the Scarred Lands where a dead god had the same problem, he was called "That Which Abides" because his name was lost to history. I think I may have lost my point here. Oh well I just always liked Tharizdun so I think his inclusion into FR would be interesting and TOEE would be a sensible way to do so.
Zanan 03-31-06, 03:00 PM	Just to stay in line with canon, deities from other worlds/settings cannot simply enter the Realms pantheon if they chose so. Ao has to agree here and if he doesn't like tha face of Tharizdun, he won't have access. Speaking of powers though, you may opt for archdevils/-demons as e.g. listed in the Book of Vile Darkness (amongst other books). Juiblex is AFAIK in there. If it gets too complicated, I'd skip the intro of Tharizdun and sub him with an equally evil if not that mad deity. BTW, your Ilmater paladin would suit my setting of the campaign nicely, as one of the Ilmatarian's main centres of worship lies on the Western edge of Damara, the Abbey of the Yellow Rose.
Mad Mage 03-31-06, 03:09 PM	However, the previous post on Impiltur inspired an alternate thought. What if the ToEE is actually the Citadel of Conjurers (see Champions of Ruin and FR9 - Bloodstone Lands)? Then Zuggtmoy can be herself and Iuz can be replaced by Eltab. --Eric Sounds interesting, so I was just curious: Who would you have in place of Saint Cuthbert as the major lawful divinity in the area? Ilmatar, maybe?
Omya 03-31-06, 07:56 PM	Terrific feedback, thank you all! Just to stay in line with canon, deities from other worlds/settings cannot simply enter the Realms pantheon if they chose so. Ao has to agree here and if he doesn't like tha face of Tharizdun, he won't have access. Well seeing how Ao is a DM metaphor, I guess that makes me him?! :D And a canon is simply something that I can choose to hold a torch to when I feel like taking a shot. ;) BTW, your Ilmater paladin would suit my setting of the campaign nicely, as one of the Ilmatarian's main centres of worship lies on the Western edge of Damara, the Abbey of the Yellow Rose.. Yes, I find this quite refreshing. :) You see, after almost a year of playing gritty anti-heros my group have found a desire to play quite righteous good-guys this time around and have chosen the following character types for this series of adventures: LG Male Chondathan Human Paladin of Ilmater (the goodly knight on a white horse from the yellow rose) NG Male Damaran Human Druid of Silvanus (old mountain hermit, protector/father figure) NG Female Tethyrian Human Favored Soul of Lathander/Fighter (pistoleer brat-princess from Westgate with good intentions) CN Male Goliath Cleric of Grumbar (an outsider from the mountains following his wanderlust) CG Male Calashite Human (with an elven grandmother) Battledancer (redeemed scoundrel/Capoeirista of Eilistraee - long backstory!) NG Male Tethyrian Human Fighter (the goodly knight's young squire with secret magical abilites he's ashamed of) Its only fair that this time I paint a picture thats something suitably epic and ringing with Good vs Evil for them to enjoy fully. I intend to work the Yellow Rose firmly into the game as the paladin, druid and battledancer's history are all connected to the site in different ways. I would appreciate some help with this 'anti-triad' idea I have and would like to build it up as the main threat somehow. Which other two deities would be a good pair to help Tharizdun?
Ramar Aulinvox 04-01-06, 12:17 PM	would appreciate some help with this 'anti-triad' idea I have and would like to build it up as the main threat somehow. Which other two deities would be a good pair to help Tharizdun? Since Tharizdun wants to unmake everything, I would use Shar (who wants everything to go back to nothingness). Other canidates would be Talos (any time a bunch of stuff is going to get destroyed, he's all about it), Orcus (age old enemy of the Bloodstone region), Demogorgan (pretty much any demon lord would fit into this), Ghaunadaur (always hungry for more sacrifices), and maybe Auril (if you want to change things up a bit).