Post/Author/DateTime	Post
cgarsmokr 03-16-06, 03:36 AM	I would love for WOTC to come out with a new sourcebook updating Kara- Tur,Maztica, Hordelands, and Zhakara. Maybe even throwing me a bone and detailing Anchrome to the north of Maztica. I'd be interested to know if any of you guys and gals agree.
Gallameed 03-16-06, 03:41 AM	I'd love a Kara-Tur hardback but would prefer a Dalelands, Heartlands, Cormyr, Dragon Coast/Sembia or Evermeet/realms of the elves book first. :) Cant wait for the Moonsea book to get here.
Ranger REG 03-16-06, 04:06 AM	I would love for WOTC to come out with a new sourcebook updating Kara- Tur,Maztica, Hordelands, and Zhakara. Maybe even throwing me a bone and detailing Anchrome to the north of Maztica. I'd be interested to know if any of you guys and gals agree. Yeah, I agree. Unfortunately, Forgotten Realms is more about Faerun than about Toril. So the priority is on Faerun before any other regions.
Kenzuki 03-16-06, 08:04 AM	I would like a Kara-Tur book as well myself, being a fan of Oriental Adventures and all. :D
Gray Richardson 03-16-06, 10:09 AM	I don't think they have any current plans to make a Kara-Tur sourcebook. (I could be wrong of course.) But I know enough people like Kara-Tur, and that it would be marketable enough, that I think it likely they might eventually put one out, say in 3-4 years. I agree that other areas of Faerūn should get first dibs on a sourcebook. But consider that Kara-Tur remains fairly popular and is fondly remembered by a lot of fans. Consider also that an oriental themed Kara-Tur sourcebook would likely have broad appeal beyond the Forgotten Realms community. Many non FR players (not just DM's) would probably buy the book for the asian-themed prestige classes, the feats, spells, and items they could mine from the book. Hopefully, the combination of fan appeal and marketability to a wider base will eventually lead to them bringing back Kara-Tur in a nice big sourcebook. Maybe they could tie it in with an event. Perhaps a Marco Polo style expedition through Kara-Tur. Probably not the Tuigan thing again. But some kind of event. Hey, maybe the rage of dragons affects Kara-Tur as well, and you get tons of refugees arriving by boats, caravans and wandering bands into the eastern Realms.
Gallameed 03-16-06, 05:51 PM	They should market/play-up Kara-Tur as a setting in it's own right, not mentioning it's FR connection very loudly; this would bring in more people and the realms players would know it was part of Toril anyway. Might attract more people to the realms "on the sly" that way. ;)
Krash 03-16-06, 06:13 PM	I would love for WOTC to come out with a new sourcebook updating Kara- Tur,Maztica, Hordelands, and Zhakara. Maybe even throwing me a bone and detailing Anchrome to the north of Maztica. I'd be interested to know if any of you guys and gals agree. Just what do you mean by 'updating'? You see, last time I checked, Kara-Tur was still in the same place, with the same people and same locations as when it was originally detailed in 2E. If by 'updating' you mean that the setting is re-packaged with 3.XE edition game mechanics, what's to stop you from using the 3E Oriental Adventures book and doing it yourself? No real burning need for WotC to do it ... If however, you want it 'updated' in the sense of events, history, timeline etc. in its quasi-FR guise, then you're a proud card-carrying member of the clamouring throng that wants a product done on X, Y or Z. So get in line (behind me - I was here first) as I hoist my "Impiltur" placard. Hope you brought some food. :D ;) -- George Krashos
WhrenKehrsyn 03-16-06, 06:22 PM	I absolutely love Maztica and I would love to see a sourcebook on it. I dont think well see a book on any of the other lands of Toril until theyve exhausted thier supply of places to in the realms proper to bring up to 3.5 edition. Even if it wasnt a Maztica book I would be happy just to see it in something, a book that discussed all the known non realms lands on Toril would be neat, sort of like LEoF.
Arivia 03-16-06, 06:31 PM	Just what do you mean by 'updating'? You see, last time I checked, Kara-Tur was still in the same place, with the same people and same locations as when it was originally detailed in 2E. If by 'updating' you mean that the setting is re-packaged with 3.XE edition game mechanics, what's to stop you from using the 3E Oriental Adventures book and doing it yourself? No real burning need for WotC to do it ... If however, you want it 'updated' in the sense of events, history, timeline etc. in its quasi-FR guise, then you're a proud card-carrying member of the clamouring throng that wants a product done on X, Y or Z. So get in line (behind me - I was here first) as I hoist my "Impiltur" placard. Hope you brought some food. :D ;) -- George Krashos *runs into line behind George and pulls out a tattered "Impiltur but get the guy in front of me to do it" card*
Gray Richardson 03-16-06, 06:58 PM	So get in line (behind me - I was here first) as I hoist my "Impiltur" placard. Hope you brought some food. :D ;) -- George KrashosI'm behind George. I want an Impiltur sourcebook too! And I'm with Arivia in that I want George to write it! ;) Certainly there are many areas of Faerūn that need an updating (or even their first book!) that should be published before they get to Kara-Tur. But every dog has its day, and I think Kara-Tur will eventually get some loving down the road aways. It just may be a long wait.
cgarsmokr 03-17-06, 01:08 AM	I'm behind George. I want an Impiltur sourcebook too! And I'm with Arivia in that I want George to write it! ;) Certainly there are many areas of Faerūn that need an updating (or even their first book!) that should be published before they get to Kara-Tur. But every dog has its day, and I think Kara-Tur will eventually get some loving down the road aways. It just may be a long wait. Aw heck, I may as well get in line too.
cgarsmokr 03-17-06, 01:24 AM	Just what do you mean by 'updating'? You see, last time I checked, Kara-Tur was still in the same place, with the same people and same locations as when it was originally detailed in 2E. If by 'updating' you mean that the setting is re-packaged with 3.XE edition game mechanics, what's to stop you from using the 3E Oriental Adventures book and doing it yourself? No real burning need for WotC to do it ... If however, you want it 'updated' in the sense of events, history, timeline etc. in its quasi-FR guise, then you're a proud card-carrying member of the clamouring throng that wants a product done on X, Y or Z. So get in line (behind me - I was here first) as I hoist my "Impiltur" placard. Hope you brought some food. :D ;) -- George Krashos By 'updated' I mean history, geography, government and current events. I mean, give a brother some flavor! I spent alot of money on Ad&D stuff when The Horde, Maztica and Al Qadim came out. I never played or DM'd a party of Tuigan or Mazticans but my players enjoyed travelling to those places and experiencing something new and different. Iloved having those fleshed out so beautifully. ps Impiltur rocks!!
Lord Karsus 03-17-06, 01:42 AM	If however, you want it 'updated' in the sense of events, history, timeline etc. in its quasi-FR guise, then you're a proud card-carrying member of the clamouring throng that wants a product done on X, Y or Z. So get in line (behind me - I was here first) as I hoist my "Impiltur" placard. Hope you brought some food. :D ;) -- George Krashos -Hey, I sat on line by myself and one other friend for quite a few hours (Usually 10+, with no one ever arriving until nearly an hour or so) for Star Wars: Episode II and Star Wars: Episode III. It seems I am doomed to wait on lines... ::Hops on the line::
Gallameed 03-17-06, 11:15 AM	-Hey, I sat on line by myself and one other friend for quite a few hours (Usually 10+, with no one ever arriving until nearly an hour or so) for Star Wars: Episode II and Star Wars: Episode III. It seems I am doomed to wait on lines... ::Hops on the line:: Did you take your lightsabre? And if yes, what are you gonna dress as while waiting for this sourcebook? :P
GothicDan 03-17-06, 12:43 PM	Go pick up a few history books, change some names around, and progress the areas a couple more years. It'll be right in theme. ;) I want a sourcebook that centers on the current affairs of the Elves, considering how much they've really gone through lately.
Gallameed 03-17-06, 07:16 PM	I want a sourcebook that centers on the current affairs of the Elves, considering how much they've really gone through lately. Goddess YES! This would be brill! But include Dragons too! :D
GothicDan 03-17-06, 07:18 PM	Don't we already have Dragons of Faerun in the works? :)
Krash 03-17-06, 10:52 PM	Don't we already have Dragons of Faerun in the works? :) GD, you don't know the half of it. :D ;) -- George Krashos
GothicDan 03-17-06, 10:57 PM	I don't! It's so unfair!
Gray Richardson 03-18-06, 04:11 AM	GD, you don't know the half of it. :D ;) -- George KrashosOkay, if Dragons of Faerūn is one half, then what's the other half? ... Could there be an Elves of Faerūn book in the works for 2007? Wouldn't surprise me if there were. An elf sourcebook is overdue methinks. ;)
Old Sage 03-18-06, 04:46 AM	An elf sourcebook is overdue methinks. ;)Agreed. And so long as it threw some extra light on the further mysteries of the Crown Wars that still haven't been revealed... so much the better :D.
LucyWanabe 03-18-06, 10:50 AM	Add me to the list of people that want a book for Kara-Tur. I don't like Rokugan, and it's such a pain in the posterior to have to throw out the Rokugan material and convert stuff so that the Oriental Adventures book fits in with Kara-Tur. I'm vaguely intrigued by Maztica, but it's not a priority to me. And, um, personally, I think there's way too much stuff on elves already. *Hides behind tower shield* Moonshaes! Unless there's already a Moonshae-area book! And Chult! Chult is my adopted "land" in Faerun.
GothicDan 03-18-06, 07:13 PM	There's certainly a lot on the Elves as a whole, but not nearly enough on the Elven states as they currently stand. :)
WhrenKehrsyn 03-18-06, 08:12 PM	Im liking the regional books, and as long as those keep coming Ill be happy. Im with LucyWanabe though, no interest in an elf book. If there is one Ill buy it because I buy everything FR, but itll probably get shelved pretty quickly...
GothicDan 03-18-06, 08:30 PM	My primary reason has nothing (much) to do with my love of Elves, but with the fact that the Elven people and nations have undergone a TON of cataclysmic events and changes (the attack on Evermeet, the attack on Evereska, Lamruil and his Tree, the Last Mythal trilogy, etc.) that the Elven nations and people have undergone, since the last time that these areas were detailed in a sourcebook. I'd say the same for any other region if I felt that it had undergone so much change. :) Now, if only we can get the likes of Elaine Cunningham, Ed Greenwood, or Steven Schend to write it...
WhrenKehrsyn 03-18-06, 09:25 PM	Thats true, there has been alot of focus on the elven nations lately in the literature, but that can all be addressed in the regional suppliments for whatever region they fall into. Thats what the regional suppliments are for, to tell us about the current state of those regions. I enjoyed Races of Faerun, but I dont like the idea of a book specifically for any particular race. I dont like it because all of what you mentioned can and should be covered in the appropriate regional books. So if instead its a book of things like culture etc it takes all the use out of Races of Faerun. Besides theres other races who deserve some face time. Dwarves, gnomes, and halflings dont have anything at all pertaining to them outside of Races of Faerun for 3.x edition. In fact looking at the books that have come out one would think humans and elves are the only core races even in the Forgotten Realms setting.
Dark Wizard 03-18-06, 11:46 PM	Isn't the upcoming year the Year of Risen Elfkin? Sounds like a good tie in to me, a book that covers Evermeet, Everaska, Cormanthor, and any other elven realms have been founded/reinforced recently due to the end of the retreat.
Lord Karsus 03-19-06, 12:17 AM	Did you take your lightsabre? And if yes, what are you gonna dress as while waiting for this sourcebook? :P -Yes, I did take my Lightsabre. As for what I am going to dress up as while waiting...How about a cheap, 19-year-old college student who agrees with the current concensus that Elves of Faerūn is very overdue?
GothicDan 03-19-06, 05:14 PM	Thats true, there has been alot of focus on the elven nations lately in the literature, but that can all be addressed in the regional suppliments for whatever region they fall into. Thats what the regional suppliments are for, to tell us about the current state of those regions. I enjoyed Races of Faerun, but I dont like the idea of a book specifically for any particular race. I dont like it because all of what you mentioned can and should be covered in the appropriate regional books. So if instead its a book of things like culture etc it takes all the use out of Races of Faerun. Besides theres other races who deserve some face time. Dwarves, gnomes, and halflings dont have anything at all pertaining to them outside of Races of Faerun for 3.x edition. In fact looking at the books that have come out one would think humans and elves are the only core races even in the Forgotten Realms setting. I agree that the other demihuman races could use some more spotlight, too, but the truth is that they've undergone (as far as we can tell) very little changes. The forest of Cormanthyr is a region by itself, as is Evermeet (which is effectively the size of a large country all by itself); I suppose Evereska could be lumped in, however.
WhrenKehrsyn 03-20-06, 12:46 AM	Well, I don't think Evermeet is so big and important it can't fit in an Island Kingdoms book with the Moonshaes, Lantan, and the Nelanther Islands. Evereska also could easily fit into a regional book. Cormanthyr is big, and has had quite a bit going on lately, but I'm not sure if it's enough to warrant its own book. In any case, I would rather see them use that time and resources to make other books. Like I said, if they did an Elves of Faerun book, I would buy it. It's not really on my list of things I hope they'll get around to doing though. *Shrug* We'll just have to agree to disagree on this. =0) EDIT: As a side note, I've been hoping for an Island Kingdoms book because I really love the Moonshaes, and I fully expected that to have Evermeet in it. So I guess I'm sort of on your side for stuff on the elves, just not in its own elf specific book. =0)
Lord Karsus 03-20-06, 01:00 AM	Well, I don't think Evermeet is so big and important it can't fit in an Island Kingdoms book with the Moonshaes, Lantan, and the Nelanther Islands. Evereska also could easily fit into a regional book. Cormanthyr is big, and has had quite a bit going on lately, but I'm not sure if it's enough to warrant its own book. -Evermeet is, in fact, quite large, in relation to established lore, and all of that. In 2e, it got it's own supplement book, so I think it could easily get another in 3e. One of the softcovers, like Magic of Faerūn, or Lords of Darkness. In any case, I would rather see them use that time and resources to make other books. Like I said, if they did an Elves of Faerun book, I would buy it. It's not really on my list of things I hope they'll get around to doing though. *Shrug* We'll just have to agree to disagree on this. =0) EDIT: As a side note, I've been hoping for an Island Kingdoms book because I really love the Moonshaes, and I fully expected that to have Evermeet in it. So I guess I'm sort of on your side for stuff on the elves, just not in its own elf specific book. =0) -Remember, there is a whole lotta lore out there for the Tel'Quessir. Combine the troves of information that we have for each Elven Realm, past and present, plus a decent sized section on Elven High Magic, the Elven Languages, and some other goodies, and we'd have a pretty thick sourcebook. Thick enough to be lumped in by itself, instead of crammed in with a few other islands. That would not bring justice to those islands, who deserve a little more, and to the Elven peoples, who deserve their own sourcebook.
WhrenKehrsyn 03-20-06, 01:12 AM	Remember, there is a whole lotta lore out there for the Tel'Quessir. Combine the troves of information that we have for each Elven Realm, past and present, plus a decent sized section on Elven High Magic, the Elven Languages, and some other goodies, and we'd have a pretty thick sourcebook. Thick enough to be lumped in by itself, instead of crammed in with a few other islands. That would not bring justice to those islands, who deserve a little more, and to the Elven peoples, who deserve their own sourcebook. Exactly, theres enough already, we don't need more. Theres no reason to just rehash things we already have. Earlier in this thread it was said to people who were interested in Kara-Tur to just "Go pick up a few history books, change some names around, and progress the areas a couple more years." You could actually go pick up the existing elf sourcebooks, get your FRCS, which has the attack on Evermeet, and a good chunk of the information on Cormanthyr, and then work in the Last Mythal novel series. That is in fact less work than mining, and modifying, a history book for things. There is not enough 'updating' to these Elven nations, except for maybe Cormanthyr, that warrants an elf only book.
Krash 03-20-06, 01:24 AM	Which is why we need an Impiltur sourcebook instead! :cheer: -- George Krashos
Lord Karsus 03-20-06, 01:25 AM	Exactly, theres enough already, we don't need more. Theres no reason to just rehash things we already have. Earlier in this thread it was said to people who were interested in Kara-Tur to just "Go pick up a few history books, change some names around, and progress the areas a couple more years." You could actually go pick up the existing elf sourcebooks, get your FRCS, which has the attack on Evermeet, and a good chunk of the information on Cormanthyr, and then work in the Last Mythal novel series. That is in fact less work than mining, and modifying, a history book for things. There is not enough 'updating' to these Elven nations, except for maybe Cormanthyr, that warrants an elf only book. -You have valid points. But, a single, unified Elven Sourcebook would be invaluable. Just like the Realms Chronology compliled into one PDF file is. Sure, all of that history is there, but it's scattered across countless sources. An Elf sourcebook can also have new information. Like I said before, I want to see a canon Elven Dictionary! There could also be new information about the Crown Wars, all of those lesser known and secretive Elven Realms and Kingdoms. -I'm in favor of an Islands sourcebook, but lumping Evermeet in with the other Islands would not be good for both sides. Either the other islands would be completely overshadowed, or Evermeet would not be give justice. Leaving her out of an Islands sourcebook, and adding her into an Elf-only sourcebook would fix both of those problems.
WhrenKehrsyn 03-20-06, 01:41 AM	But, a single, unified Elven Sourcebook would be invaluable. Just like the Realms Chronology compliled into one PDF file is. Sure, all of that history is there, but it's scattered across countless sources. An Elf sourcebook can also have new information. Like I said before, I want to see a canon Elven Dictionary! There could also be new information about the Crown Wars, all of those lesser known and secretive Elven Realms and Kingdoms. At the risk of sounding combatative (thats not my intent but I know I sometimes sound that way), I dont think thats necessary. If they were to decide on an elf book for those things there had better be one for gnomes and halfings respectively first. We have all that information on elves already, yes it may be scattered around but it is there. Theres some races, like gnomes and halfings, that havent even got so much as a nod acknowledging they even have a history, culture, or nations/cities of thier own. EDIT: I was including Evermeet with the other Island Kingdoms because, as much as I love Moonshae, I dont think theres enough new information to fill out a regional book without Evermeet, which I also dont think has enough new information to warrant its own book.
Lord Karsus 03-20-06, 01:48 AM	At the risk of sounding combatative (thats not my intent but I know I sometimes sound that way), I dont think thats necessary. If they were to decide on an elf book for those things there had better be one for gnomes and halfings respectively first. We have all that information on elves already, yes it may be scattered around but it is there. Theres some races, like gnomes and halfings, that havent even got so much as a nod acknowledging they even have a history, culture, or nations/cities of thier own. EDIT: I was including Evermeet with the other Island Kingdoms because, as much as I love Moonshae, I dont think theres enough new information to fill out a regional book without Evermeet, which I also dont think has enough new information to warrant its own book. -Well, the problem with the Gnomes and Halflings, is that they have never been active players on the world map. They have never had great empires, or great magics, or whatever. I'm not saying that Gnomes/Halflings are inferior, but there shoudln't be a lot about them. Who would want to have a Halfling Sourcebook, that details how Uncle Jebidiah caught a twelve pount trout? Know what I mean? -The problem with Evermeet being included with the other Island nations is that either: A) Evermeet won't get enough room in the book, and her entry will really be less than what Evermeet deserves. B) Evermeet gets too much information, and the other Island nations, most of which are interesting, are overshadowed. Justice for them, in their own sourcebook, is not done.
WhrenKehrsyn 03-20-06, 02:00 AM	Who would want to have a Halfling Sourcebook, that details how Uncle Jebidiah caught a twelve pount trout? Im sure they have a culture, a language, a history, and all the other things humans and elves do. That quote works both ways by the way. Who would want to have an Elf Sourcebook that details a bunch of things weve already read a thousand times over? I'll just leave it alone here. Many of you would like an elf book, I wouldnt be terribly thrilled with one, but Id buy it.
cgarsmokr 03-20-06, 01:03 PM	Wren and Karsus, How about an island sourcebook that featured Moonshaes, Nelanther, Lantan and Nimbral and an elven sourcebook that featured evermeet etc. :P
Faraer 03-20-06, 01:33 PM	While there's quite a bit of elf lore published, it's extremely scattered and mostly out of print. To understand elves in Faerūn you need to take the basic overview in Races of Faerūn and add the description of the elven mindset in Cormanthyr, the religion in Demihuman Deities, the history in Lost Empires, and regional data from Volo's Guide to the Sword Coast, Elves of Evermeet, the "New Adventures of Volo" article on elven realms, etc. etc. It's as good a subject for a new 160-page sourcebook, though I'd schedule it behind the Dales, Cormyr and, oh yeah, Impiltur, and a proper book on Realms magic (unlike Magic of Faerūn's superficial, incoherent survey). Comparing the good newer to the older sourcebooks on similar subjects, we universally find much new lore, and that we had big gaps even in what we thought we knew thoroughly. And FR11 Dwarves Deep and GAZ8 The Five Shires show how great expanded dwarf and halfling/gnome books could be. We need more about the trout-catching and less about the tower-toppling, dammit, or Realms products are doomed to a decline of sensationalistic overkill. When you're talking about some subject not having enough information to warrant a book: maybe commercially, but in terms of even the already created but unpublished detail of the Realms, everything mentioned here so far could easily sustain multiple volumes of that size.
WhrenKehrsyn 03-20-06, 01:40 PM	While there's quite a bit of elf lore published, it's extremely scattered and mostly out of print. To understand elves in Faerūn you need to take the basic overview in Races of Faerūn and add the description of the elven mindset in Cormanthyr, the religion in Demihuman Deities, the history in Lost Empires, and regional data from Volo's Guide to the Sword Coast, Elves of Evermeet, the "New Adventures of Volo" article on elven realms, etc. etc. This is my point exactly, so you have to open more than one book to get all your lore on elves, poor you. That lore IS there for you. If, however, you wanted to play a gnome, you can use the basic overview in Races of Faerun, and... Oh, thats it. No lore at all. And FR11 Dwarves Deep and GAZ8 The Five Shires show how great expanded dwarf and halfling/gnome books could be. Yes. And I think theres a greater need for these than more stuff for elf fans. Its true that these races havent been active players on the world map, but maybe thats because in the Forgotten Realms lore theyre little more than stat blocks and sidekicks. If they had actual cultures and lore attached to them, like elves and humans do, then maybe novelists would be more willing to write about them, and they would have a bigger impact on the realms. (I know I said I was going to leave it alone, but I cant help myself...)
Faraer 03-20-06, 02:03 PM	Selfishly, yeah, I'd like to see a halflings/gnomes book first. An elf sourcebook isn't high up my own wants list, because I have all these sources and am not especially interested in elves. Most D&D players don't visit D&D websites and don't have this information unless they bought it when it came out -- we, as in the kind of people posting to this thread and who can reel of lists of sources, are a really small minority. So a new elf book serves both to make this stuff accessible and to deliver a lot of new lore -- especially the how-things-work stuff as opposed to the this-and-that-thing stuff -- that otherwise has no obvious place. For those in our narrow group, there are additional gnome and halfling sources, such as "Hin Nobody Knows" in Dragon #269, and Ed himself will answer (pretty much) any question on gnomes people care to ask. They do have cultures, and he's made such information available to authors since TSR acquired the Realms, so I don't think that's the reason for lack of gnomes in books. But I don't think gnomes and halflings should have a big influence on the Realms in macropolitical terms: that would be a feeble, short-sighted and superficial way to make them seem important, like the whole Shade nonsense.
Karsus the Mad 03-20-06, 02:14 PM	Island Realms of Faerun...hmmmmmmm......yummy. A slab of grilled Moonshae and a pinch of Nimbral, some Nelanther sauce, all layered between two thick Lantanna and Evermeetian buns and a side of Ruathym delight sprinkled with crunch and a mug of good ol' fashion lore...hmmmmmmm....
Lord Karsus 03-21-06, 12:50 AM	Wren and Karsus, How about an island sourcebook that featured Moonshaes, Nelanther, Lantan and Nimbral and an elven sourcebook that featured evermeet etc. :P -Well, that was part of my argument. Evermeet would fit better with something a seperate supplemted about Elves, and the Islands would have a better sourcebook without Evermeet. But I don't think gnomes and halflings should have a big influence on the Realms in macropolitical terms: that would be a feeble, short-sighted and superficial way to make them seem important, like the whole Shade nonsense -This is why I disagree with a Halfling/Gnome sourcebook. Their impact on the Realms has been minimal, at best. They are known as the "Forgotten Folk" for a reason. There are only a few sourcebooks published in a given amount of time. I guess it's about three per year. Why 'waste' one of Gnomes and Halflings, whose presence on Faerūn is very minimal. Whether this is because no other authors have really touched them, or because it is just their nature is unknown to be. But, in my opinon, it's like having an entire sourcebook on Mongrel Men and Dire Korbies (Although, I'll admit, Gnomes and Halflings are much more important in the general sense that those other two).
GothicDan 03-21-06, 01:07 AM	See, from a purely selfish point of view, I don't WANT to see all of the old Elven stuff rehashed, because, well, I have access to the vast majority of it. On this, I agree with Wren. However, Wren, you also seemed to miss my point: Exactly, theres enough already, we don't need more. Theres no reason to just rehash things we already have. Earlier in this thread it was said to people who were interested in Kara-Tur to just "Go pick up a few history books, change some names around, and progress the areas a couple more years." You could actually go pick up the existing elf sourcebooks, get your FRCS, which has the attack on Evermeet, and a good chunk of the information on Cormanthyr, and then work in the Last Mythal novel series. That is in fact less work than mining, and modifying, a history book for things. The reason why I specifically pointed out Kara-Tur for the statement you quoted above, is because Kara-Tur is a carbon-copy of Asian Earth - quite literally, we can match up countries in Kara-Tur to those in Asia, by name, and there was even a Boxer Rebellion. That's what I meant - the fact that, by far and large, there was very little actual creation done in making Kara-Tur, and more copyng from real-life nations and their histories and cultures, directly. You can go to the library, or the bookstore, and pick up hundreds and thousands of books about Asian history and culture - and it would be entirely applicable in Kara-Tur, since that's how Kara-Tur was created in the first place. You CANNOT do the same about those cultures of Faerun itself (at least those not tacked on by TSR), because there ARE no books existent in the real world that act as analogies to, say, Thay, Halruaa, the Silver Marches, the Moonsea area, etc. There is not enough 'updating' to these Elven nations, except for maybe Cormanthyr, that warrants an elf only book. I'm sorry, but I really wonder if you've been keeping up on lore. Evermeet itself was attacked, which has NEVER happened before in all of its history. An entirely NEW Elven nation is arising from Lamruil planting the Tree of Souls. Evereska is obviously a very different place after the war against the Phaerimn - it has a bloody Weave-Shadow Weave Mythal now (which I think is horribly stupid, but it's canon). The events in the Last Mythal trilogy (as much as I dislike those, too) will rock the entire Elven culture as a whole. The Towers of the Sun and the Moon, the centers of Elven High Magic, have been destroyed, and the number of High Magi themselves cut down to a minimum.... There's a LOT going on with the Elves, current-events wise - not that I like much, or most, of it. But it's still happening, and all of these events will have a MAJOR effect on the face of these Elven regions, in terms of rulership, NPCs, resources, politics, magic, defense, etc. The old sourcebooks detailing the regions simply do not cut it. As I said, I would say the same for any other region/s which has/ad undergone so drastic a change, too - but I really can't think of any such events occurring among the Dwarves, Gnomes, Halflings, and the like.
Gray Richardson 03-21-06, 02:43 AM	While I agree with Dan that Kara-Tur was originally copied a little too closely from Earth's Asia, I think a new Kara-Tur sourcebook could go a long way towards fixing that, by crafting some original lore that puts a fresh and intriguing spin on Kara-Tur. Some talented writers/designers/developers could truly make it a unique and wonderous place that is firmly grounded within the Realms and that breathes with the same life that animates the best lore of Faerūn. Okay, so Kara-Tur is a lot like Asia. Probably in the same way that Mulhorand and Unther are a lot like Egypt and Mesopotamia. But that is because, just like the Mulan came from Earth, the inhabitants of Kara-Tur are migrants through portals. They probably actually came originally from Earth's Asia. So you draw on that. You draw on all that rich lore of Toril to make Kara-Tur a synthesis of what is truly great about the Realms mixed with classic Asian culture, mythology and fantasy elements. On the Realms side, you have the Imaskari, the eastern dragons (the various lung and ryu), the remnants of the Batrachi empire (the Tako & eastern doppelgangers/shape shifters) you have those colossal gargantuas, which may or may not be related to or creations of giant folk who emigrated from Faerūn. You have the eastern branches of the Fey Creator race (which may have something to do with why their astral is so different and looks like the Spirit World from Manual of the Planes) you have nagas from the sarrukh empires settling in the east. You have refugees from the Aeearee race settling in the east to become the Tengu and the Kenku. All this tremendous history in the eastern Realms, and then you have human settlers from Earth's Asia migrating through portals built by... who? The Fey? A powerful race of Giants? A cloud giant offshoot maybe. Or Titans? Perhaps the ones who brought the Gargantuas to Kara-Tur? (Or maybe the Gargantuas are transformed/cursed Titans.) Or the Imaskari or the Batrachi, or maybe all of them were building portals that allowed Earth humans to wander through. And then it would be neat to have Kara-Tur trade with Faerūn. Interact more. Establish treaties. The Red Wizards could establish their enclaves over there and trade in magic. I could see the Red Wizards or the Zhentarim or the Sembians establishing a Hong Kong style trading colony/city in Kara-Tur. Anyway, I just think some talented designers have a lot to work with to make Kara-Tur something really special. Have some thoughtful Realms historians and writers brainstorm about the history and cultures of Kara-Tur and then a Kara-Tur sourcebook could go a long way towards redacting Kara-Tur to fit the Realms and to make for a unique fantasy setting with Oriental flavor. If done right I think it would be a book that would be really popular, both with Realms fans and with fans of Asian fantasy & culture. It could be a powerful brand and a fertile new setting for WotC and it could be a sourcebook that WotC would be really proud of.
Faraer 03-21-06, 10:31 AM	This is why I disagree with a Halfling/Gnome sourcebook. Their impact on the Realms has been minimal, at best. They are known as the "Forgotten Folk" for a reason. There are only a few sourcebooks published in a given amount of time. I guess it's about three per year. Why 'waste' one of Gnomes and Halflings, whose presence on Faerūn is very minimal. Whether this is because no other authors have really touched them, or because it is just their nature is unknown to be. But, in my opinon, it's like having an entire sourcebook on Mongrel Men and Dire Korbies (Although, I'll admit, Gnomes and Halflings are much more important in the general sense that those other two).Men call gnomes the Forgotten Folk not because they aren't a major presence, but because they don't figure in overt, obvious, big-battles-and-explosions ways in human society. That's quite another thing from how important (in whatever sense) they really are in Faerūn, or how worthwhile a sourcebook on them would be for DMs and players. As well as their own communities, there are gnomes and halflings in every large settlement of Faerūn, and their partial integration with human society (which sometimes masks what they're up to secretly) and underexposure in the published sources shouldn't be confused with unimportance in the setting.
Karsus the Mad 03-21-06, 10:43 AM	Instead of rehashing old and adding in a few interesting current events, which really don't warrant much, let alone an entire sourcebook, why not come out with a sourcebook that covers something that hasn't been detailed to boredom already? How many of Faerun's regions have only been scratched, or not even touched upon? Too many.
WhrenKehrsyn 03-21-06, 11:30 AM	Why 'waste' one of Gnomes and Halflings, whose presence on Faerūn is very minimal. Whether this is because no other authors have really touched them, or because it is just their nature is unknown to be. But, in my opinon, it's like having an entire sourcebook on Mongrel Men and Dire Korbies (Although, I'll admit, Gnomes and Halflings are much more important in the general sense that those other two). Thier impact is minimal because no one does anything at all with them. It doesnt have to be. And frankly I dont think a book about them is any more a waste than yet another book on elves. In regards to places Like Kara-Tur, Zakhara, Maztica, and the Hordelands, yes, they were based very heavily on real world locales. That doesnt mean that if/when they get sourcebooks the designers, who I think are pretty creative, cant give them thier own unique flavors and styles, seperate from thier real world counterparts. I think thats what many of the posters here mean by updating those areas. With a little thought it is possible to retain the Asian, Arabian, and MezoAmerican feel but remove them from being too real world. Im sorry, but I really wonder if you've been keeping up on lore. Evermeet itself was attacked, which has NEVER happened before in all of its history. An entirely NEW Elven nation is arising from Lamruil planting the Tree of Souls. Evereska is obviously a very different place after the war against the Phaerimn - it has a bloody Weave-Shadow Weave Mythal now (which I think is horribly stupid, but it's canon). The events in the Last Mythal trilogy (as much as I dislike those, too) will rock the entire Elven culture as a whole. The Towers of the Sun and the Moon, the centers of Elven High Magic, have been destroyed, and the number of High Magi themselves cut down to a minimum.... All of which, except for the Last Mythal series (Im not that big on it either), are covered in the FRCS and PGtF. Besides, most of those only have much of an impact on the region it takes place in, put it in the regional books. Evermeet gets attacked, Evermeet fends off the attackers, life on Evermeet goes on just like it always has. There, I updated Evermeet for you. As I said, I would say the same for any other region/s which has/ad undergone so drastic a change, too - but I really can't think of any such events occurring among the Dwarves, Gnomes, Halflings, and the like. All the dwarven states in the north. Citatel Adbar, Miribar, Mithril Hall, etc. The entire landscape and power structure of the entire region is very different now. In some of those places they cant even leave thier own front doors anymore. I think thats a pretty drastic change. A bit more than 'Oh no, a few elves died and some of our troops left, but nothing has really changed.' Instead of rehashing old and adding in a few interesting current events, which really don't warrant much, let alone an entire sourcebook, why not come out with a sourcebook that covers something that hasn't been detailed to boredom already? How many of Faerun's regions have only been scratched, or not even touched upon? Too many. Exactly
Flecha 03-21-06, 11:39 AM	Hey, I wan't to ask for a Zakhara sourcebook, or more than one! If you ask old AD&D hardcore gamers about the best gaming worlds TSR put out, you'll get a fair share for Al-Qadim. It was a pretty good one, and the arabian myths are as rich (or more) as the european ones in which Faerūn is based (under the Tolkien reinterpretation). I understand that the reasons for WotC not to publish Zakhara products are the same as not to publish other old TSR worlds, like Dark Sun, Raventloft (currently published by White Wolf), or Planescape (which is in the planes books but, hey, who wouldn't love a sourcebook of it's own, or even a Sigil book alone!). Nonetheless, Zakhara is pretty good and I think that since WotC already owns FR, they should be the ones to publish Kara-Tur and Zakhara (and Maztica) books, sooner or later. Much sooner than later. I've always felt some fear that the uneasy (and stupid) political situation of the world this dark days we live provokes that US publishers would autor censorship themselves, and that would be the case of WotC with Al-Qadim. Of course I trust it's not like that in real life, and that the reasons we haven't yet seen Zakhara books for D20 are just comercial ones. I would be the first to buy them, you can bet.
GothicDan 03-21-06, 07:09 PM	All of which, except for the Last Mythal series (Im not that big on it either), are covered in the FRCS and PGtF. Besides, most of those only have much of an impact on the region it takes place in, put it in the regional books. Evermeet gets attacked, Evermeet fends off the attackers, life on Evermeet goes on just like it always has. There, I updated Evermeet for you. Uh. I think you're missing my point: things do NOT go on as normal. Specifically, to point out my examples: Evermeet itself was attacked, which has NEVER happened before in all of its history: And how are the Elves of Evermeet currently reacting? We know nothing about it. We know very little about the current state of the martial forces. With the Towers of the Sun and the Moon destroyed, where now is the center of Elven High Magic? How will the Elves' lives be affected now with the vastly reduced number of High Magi, who had among one of their primary duties (as stated in the novel Evermeet) to act as messengers for the Elven people? Imagine losing 3/4 of one's long-distance communications - do you think the world would "just go on" as normal? How are the inhabitants of Evermeet reacting to the attack? Is there greater tension between the Sun Elves and the Queen now that the Retreat is over? Just what are the conditions for the Sun Elves wishing to remain behind in Evermeet now that it's been shown to be (somewhat) pregnable? They may well be considering going back to Faerun proper and retaking old lands, uncovering ruins of Aryvandaar, Siluvanede, or the like; they are certainly not just sitting around on their rumps all day, now that their entire world is changing. These are only a handful of responses that come to mind in regards to this assault, and there are surely many, many more, which have NOT been covered in any sourcebook properly. An entirely NEW Elven nation is arising from Lamruil planting the Tree of Souls: We have heard almost nothing at all about this. The rising of a new Elven nation on the mainland is about one of the hugest things that can happen - just as the birth of any nation is. Evereska is obviously a very different place after the war against the Phaerimn - it has a bloody Weave-Shadow Weave Mythal now (which I think is horribly stupid, but it's canon): How are the inhabitants of Evereska coping? What is the current population like? Are there any enmities shared amongst its citizens and those of Evermeet, who may not have sent as much aid as was possible (in their eyes), and if so, how do the Evereskans feel about the Queen in response to this? Do the Evereskans even feel comfortable in their Fortress Home now that its primary form or ancestral protection has been corrupted with evil Shadow Magic wielded by one of the oldest, dangerous deities in Realmspace? Surely there would be some leaving, or demanding that they purge their Mythal. How do they feel about the Shades? How likely would they be to be able to withstand any sort of major attack now in their weakened state? The events in the Last Mythal trilogy (as much as I dislike those, too) will rock the entire Elven culture as a whole: You've already agreed about this. I'm not trying to be offensive, but I think your distaste for the profusion of Elven products is making it hard for you to see the sheer depths of change that the Elven people have undergone recently, and how truly sociologically profound those changes would be, and the extent they would have. All the dwarven states in the north. Citatel Adbar, Miribar, Mithril Hall, etc. The entire landscape and power structure of the entire region is very different now. In some of those places they cant even leave thier own front doors anymore. I think thats a pretty drastic change. What's going on there? I am not one to profess being wise in the ways of Dwarves. :) A bit more than 'Oh no, a few elves died and some of our troops left, but nothing has really changed.': The slaughtering of dozens of High Magi (read: Epic level spellcasters) in the assault on Evereska, the traditional keepers of lore, balance, magic, and wisdom among the Elves, counts as not really much of a change to you? The Elves live and breathe magic; this is a blow to them as powerful as the loss of electricity across the coastal regions of a modern country would be in our world.
GothicDan 03-21-06, 07:13 PM	If you ask old AD&D hardcore gamers about the best gaming worlds TSR put out, you'll get a fair share for Al-Qadim. It was a pretty good one, and the arabian myths are as rich (or more) as the european ones in which Faerūn is based (under the Tolkien reinterpretation). Faerun is not European. It is simply aimed at a Western audience, and thus the sourcebooks highlight these aspects of the setting. There are people of all shapes, sizes, colors, and cultures in Faerun.
WhrenKehrsyn 03-21-06, 07:22 PM	As far as I can tell from reading the Last Mythal books, life on Evermeet goes on just like it always has. Evermeet:Island of the Elves has been out for quite some time, but none of the sources since (Return of the Archwizards, Last Mythal) have showed that thier response has been anything but shrug it off. The stuff on Evereska and with the Tree can and should be in regional books, thats the point Ive been trying to make all along. They do not warrant an elf book. I'm not trying to be offensive, but I think your distaste for the profusion of Elven products is making it hard for you to see the sheer depths of change that the Elven people have undergone recently, and how truly sociologically profound those changes would be, and the extent they would have. Its not a distaste for elven products so much as its a desire to see something that could use actual face time get a product. I dont actually like most of the races Ive been advocating. I have played exactly one character that was not human, half-elf, or elf. And she was a tiefling. But I also think your love of elves (by no means a bad thing) is very heavily coloring your desire to have an elf only book as much as my wanting other products is coloring my own preferance for not having one. What's going on there? I am not one to profess being wise in the ways of Dwarves And theres my point about other races exactly. The orcs led by Obould have conquered a huge portion of the north, effectively shut down places like Mithril Hall (they captured even Keepers Dale) and are a significant threat to places like Silverymoon. I stand by my opinion that the elven nations can and should be covered in the appropriate regional suppliments, and that should there be an elf book there should also be similar books for the other, under represented, races.
cgarsmokr 03-21-06, 10:42 PM	[QUOTE=Gray Richardson]While I agree with Dan that Kara-Tur was originally copied a little too closely from Earth's Asia, I think a new Kara-Tur sourcebook could go a long way towards fixing that, by crafting some original lore that puts a fresh and intriguing spin on Kara-Tur. Some talented writers/designers/developers could truly make it a unique and wonderous place that is firmly grounded within the Realms and that breathes with the same life that animates the best lore of Faerūn. Thank You!!!! There are a thousand ways to make an upgraded Kara-Tur or Maztica or Zhakara fun, exciting and unique. There's no question the authors of these places patterned them after real world civilizations. Who cares!!!!!!!! The similarities made them interesting in most cases. Sure there were things I didn't like about them but here's WoTC's chance to see how creative thier writers are. And lets tie these places into the Realms more. These settings were created and marketed during first and second editions of D&D. Maybe some new players would like to see these places detailed instead of mentioned off handedly in their third edition books. I personally think the whole elves angle has been done to death in novels over the years but I respect the fact that many of you want to see another sourcebook on it. Hell, I'd buy it too I'm just interested in geograhical areas more (shrugs). Earlier in this post someone mentioned Impiltur. Better yet Impiltur, Damara, Narfell, Vaasa and Sossal. Or, Mulhorand, Unther Chessenta, Murghom and Semphar. Or even The Vilhon Reach. Okay, I'll get off my soapbox now (takes a deep breath).
Lord Karsus 03-21-06, 11:29 PM	-To add an addendum to what Dan was talking about, there's also an entire new Elven Subrace that has been added to the Realms- Star Elves. Originally from the Sildeyüir, they 'ported themselves to a whole new demiplane. There's pleanty of material that can be expanded upon there.
WhrenKehrsyn 03-21-06, 11:39 PM	Theyre in Unapproachable East.
Lord Karsus 03-21-06, 11:46 PM	Theyre in Unapproachable East. -Mentioned, yes. And, there's a little about them. But, there's a few millennia of history there, cut down to a few blurbs. Just another thing that could be added to an Elven Sourcebook.
Purple Dragon Knight 03-22-06, 12:29 AM	On a hypothetical Kara-Tur book: a resounding nay from this Purple Cavalier!
Ranger REG 03-22-06, 12:37 AM	Faerun is not European. It has a close resemblance, so why not use Europe as a template reference?
Dark Wizard 03-22-06, 01:03 AM	Oh boy, are we going to go there again? It's not a matter of whether kara-Tur is based too much on real Asia or not, it is fine as a setting, it's just not Realmsian enough. I think a sourcebook on Kara-Tur would go a long way in making it feel like it belongs in FR as well. I think a Kara-Tur book should certainly preceed Zakhara seeing as how Faerun already has Calimshan, Anauroch, and even Murghom and Semphar to work with in a Thousand and One Nights type set up. The influence of Near East culture and stories already plays a huge part in the Realms. As for Maztica, I wish I could get into it, but again it is based way too much on real history to feel interesting. So Kara-Tur should get first dibs on a book. :D Seriously, with the increased awareness and popularity of Asian cinema particularly the period pieces already loaded with fantasy material as well as "popular oriental fantasy culture" imported through other sources such as books and comics, it is a very viable area for Wizards to expand into. Though other books I might want to see before a Kara-Tur book would be an update to the Cold Lands - Damara, Vaasa, and Narfell. Impiltur could be included, if it can't be put in its own book. Island Kingdoms updating the Moonshaes, Ruathym, Gundarlun, Uttersea, Mintarn, and the Nelanthers but not with Evermeet which should go in an Elf book. Then maybe something on the Lands of Intrigue - Amn, Tethyr and Calimshan as well as the Sythillisian/Sothillisian Empire (Murannheim I think one of the designers said it might be called). A nation ruled by a humanoid/giant, about time.
Flecha 03-22-06, 07:36 AM	Faerun is not European. It is simply aimed at a Western audience, and thus the sourcebooks highlight these aspects of the setting. There are people of all shapes, sizes, colors, and cultures in Faerun. Well, with european I mean based on the images of european late middle ages and renaisance. You have the clothes, weapons, castles, cities, and what you want, based on the same elements of that historical period in Europe. Of course I agree with you in that it's simply aimed to western audience, which includes all of Europe AND America. In fact D&D and all it's worlds are made by north americans and are very influenced by north american culture. It's a full literary subgenre, the modern fantasy, mostly leaded by north american authors, and an evolution on the mythical stories. It includes a much more social conscience, and you'll find mixing of diferent races and a wish to evolve from the feudal society. Just compare the Conan Stories with the Tolkien ones. When Conan became a king, he took power from the nobles and gave more to the peasants. Tolkien, besides making entire races superior to others (Tolkien's elfs are effectively superior to men, even the high ones), relied on the feudal society, as orcs seemd to despise figures of authority while the future of men is in getting back a king and so on... So, ok, the ideas are different in moderrn fantasy, but the background is still the same, that is, European middle ages and renaissance. Unless there were such things in the US... ;) Likewise, Oriental Adventures and Al-Qadim looked to reproduce the awe and wonder of ancient Oriental and Arab "mythical" civilizations.
Flecha 03-22-06, 07:52 AM	It's not a matter of whether kara-Tur is based too much on real Asia or not, it is fine as a setting, I agree; it's the same with Faerūn and Zakhara. There was magic and lots of fun in Earth mythologies, and that's why they are "copied" in modern fantasy. Beyond that point, we can make things as we like. Consider Ursula K. Le Guin's Earthsea series; you have a medieval landscape with castles and the like, while the characters are dark skinned. On the other hand, remember that Kara-Tur is far east of Faerūn, Zakhara is south-east, and Maztica is to the west, beyond the ocean... just like their counterparts of Earth, in renaissance era... ;) I think a Kara-Tur book should certainly preceed Zakhara seeing as how Faerun already has Calimshan, Anauroch, and even Murghom and Semphar to work with in a Thousand and One Nights type set up. The influence of Near East culture and stories already plays a huge part in the Realms. Yes, the INFLUENCE. But the the "Thousand and One Nights type world" itself. As such, Al-Qadim was a separate TSR campaign for the reason you stated; it's not realmsian enough. It shows a very different society, philosophy and magic. So, in part is realmsian as it is in Toril, but it's a different kind of campaign. Imagine english knights of the 14th century travelling all it's way to Bagdad (hope I can say Bagdad ;) ). Imagine the cultural shock. Tha's why it should be a pretty different campaign.
Ranger REG 03-22-06, 08:55 PM	Oh boy, are we going to go there again? It's not a matter of whether kara-Tur is based too much on real Asia or not, it is fine as a setting, it's just not Realmsian enough. But what is "Realmsian enough"? Ed Greenwood never did explored nor charted that territory. He only did what is [ethnically] familiar to him, unless he can correct me that he did do some Asian Studies program.
GothicDan 03-22-06, 10:11 PM	Okay, let's go person-by-person! Wren: As far as I can tell from reading the Last Mythal books, life on Evermeet goes on just like it always has. Evermeet:Island of the Elves has been out for quite some time, but none of the sources since (Return of the Archwizards, Last Mythal) have showed that thier response has been anything but shrug it off. The stuff on Evereska and with the Tree can and should be in regional books, thats the point Ive been trying to make all along. They do not warrant an elf book. The Last Mythal trilogy really has very little to do with Evermeet; it wasn't its intent to delve at all into the intricasies of the island or to update any of the changes. The same can be said of RotAW - which didn't have a single part set on Evermeet at all, and did not even feature a character from Evermeet, nor was anything mentioned about its stability. Once more, it was not the focus of these books to deal with Evermeet, so why would they have mentioned anything about it? Having read the RotAW myself (whereas I haven't read, but rather heard of, the Last Mythal trilogy), I can for one say that I can barely remember any references to Evermeet in it, other than the fact that they were unwilling to send a lot of aid (which actually hints at the fact that Evermeet IS greatly experiencing difficulties). Its not a distaste for elven products so much as its a desire to see something that could use actual face time get a product. I dont actually like most of the races Ive been advocating. I have played exactly one character that was not human, half-elf, or elf. And she was a tiefling. See, I think of things more logically - I want that which most logically requires the most information, for the most part, based on facts like how overall influential a topic is, how drastic the changes have been concerning the topic since its last update, and how applicable it is to the original intentions of the Realms as created by Ed Greenwood. But I also think your love of elves (by no means a bad thing) is very heavily coloring your desire to have an elf only book as much as my wanting other products is coloring my own preferance for not having one. This response is entirely founded given I felt the same about you, in reverse. :) But, as I said many other times, I base my preferences first and foremost on the above variables - most notably, how much a region/culture/race/etc. has changed since its last publishment. And theres my point about other races exactly. The orcs led by Obould have conquered a huge portion of the north, effectively shut down places like Mithril Hall (they captured even Keepers Dale) and are a significant threat to places like Silverymoon. And we just had a book on the Silver Marches. I do not think Obould is considered enough of a threat to the Marches to actually require a whole new book all over again, especially because, for the most part, there hasn't been any direct affect on the region (that I know of, correct me if I'm wrong) besides Mithral Hall. Publishing a new book that was updated only a few years ago, just to speculate about what might happen, if Obould does this or that, would be really, really unproductive, since it's just that - speculation. Evereska and Evermeet were attacked, the High Magi and the Towers of the Sun and the Moon were destroyed - these things already happened, and would thus be having effects, right now or in the near future, on the Elven people. If Obould had launched a large-scale attack on multiple Dwarven strongholds already, I would at least consider the idea - but has he? I stand by my opinion that the elven nations can and should be covered in the appropriate regional suppliments, and that should there be an elf book there should also be similar books for the other, under represented, races. That's like saying that you think Faerun itself can be summarized in one book. Obviously it cannot be, given that there have been dozens of regional books throughout the various editions. If WotC is going to detail Evermeet, they're going to do it with the idea that new players have no access to older material. The fact that Evermeet took an entire supplement to detail previously, and only more has happened to the Isle since its publishment, means that to do it justice, WotC would obviously have to require a separate supplement once more - because they would have to put forth enough information about it such that it would be well-enough detailed to give proper cover of the isle for those who do not have access to older supplements. I think that doing books on topics that have relatively little impact on the Realms (not due to neglect, but simply due to fact) would be a waste of space, time, and money. There's a reason why Gnomes and Halflings do not have a history as (subjectively) grandiose as that of the Elves. Gnomes, for instance, were taught magic by the Elves themselves only as long ago as the time of Netheril; it would have been impossible for them to have made much of an impact on the Realms before that, which means that the Elves have literally tens of thousands of years more time on Faerun during which they had the power to influence the Realms in a wide-ranging, long-term manner. Elves felled the dragons and started the Rage; Elves caused the Sundering; Elves taught the first Netherese the basics of magic; Elves freed the Gnomes from enslavement by the Netherese. You may say this is due to bias, but think about it, first. Elves, as a culture, are magically powerful and they are very driven, ambitious individuals (the Sun Elves in particular). Halflings are simply not - culturally. That's the way they were designed. They are more laidback, caring about safety of home and community and animal comforts; they are not given to doing great, legendary things. As a perfect example, look at the Hobbits from the LotR. They are simple folk, because they like it like that. It would be pointless to produce a sourcebook, say, for Middle-Earth, detailing hundreds of years on the history of the Shire.. There would be a whole lot of farming in it. And eating. And not much else. That is not to say that such "home-spun" lore is less important, but rather it's simply less influential outside of its very localized sphere of influence. Even Dwarves have similar sensibilities, though not to the extent that the Gnomes and Halflings do. Dwarves are defensive; they're built for it. They're not offensive. They're so Lawful that they're pretty much against change, and their ambitions are not so grandiose as those of the Sun Elves, nor do they lack anywhere near the arcane power to affect the world in ways like the Tel'Quessir, Netherese, Imaskari, Red Wizards, etc. have. They have clerical magic, sure, but the Dwarven pantheon is made up of deities who profess the importance of stability, tradition, defense, metal-smithing, the bonds of family and clan, and the like. If you want enough information on these other races - information that is actually usable in game play and which would be enough to fill a book - then WotC is going to basically have to retcon their cultures and histories, and to me, that's completely rewriting the races themselves. Halflings don't WANT to make a big impact on the world; Gnomes do not WANT to found great magical empires; Dwarves do not WANT to establish large surface kingdoms. And that's why they have not.
GothicDan 03-22-06, 10:20 PM	cgarsmokr: Thank You!!!! There are a thousand ways to make an upgraded Kara-Tur or Maztica or Zhakara fun, exciting and unique. There's no question the authors of these places patterned them after real world civilizations. Who cares!!!!!!!! A number of us, actually; primarily those who appreciate the fact that Ed spent a lot of time and effort creating a history and culture unique to his Realms. The fact that TSR changed "Asia" to "Kara-Tur" and pasted it onto the side of Faerun with next to no thought is uncreative, offensive, disrespectful, and in my opinion, not terribly "fantastic." If I want to play a D&D game based on a specific real world culture, I don't want valuable time and money to be spent on detailing things that I could just as easily find in a book at the library, at the expense of seeing legitimately inspired and previously undetailed Realms pushed back. The similarities made them interesting in most cases. Sure there were things I didn't like about them but here's WoTC's chance to see how creative thier writers are. And lets tie these places into the Realms more. What would be even more creative would be if they simply restarted them from scratch completely - as in, not saying, "let's make an Asian culture," but rather, "let's make a culture." As to tying them into the Realms more, that would cause more retconning, and when WotC retcons stuff, they never take into account the myriad of effects it would cause on the rest of history. These settings were created and marketed during first and second editions of D&D. Maybe some new players would like to see these places detailed instead of mentioned off handedly in their third edition books. I don't recall much about these areas being detailed in 1E, but that was before my time. And of course some new players want to see them detailed - but this is the Forgotten Realms campaign setting, which focused on Faerun. If they want to see them better detailed, they should not be asking WotC to take the spotlight off of the thing that the setting is meant to focus on. I wouldn't give a hoot if WotC decided to detail Kara-Tur or Zakhara again, so long as it wasn't marketed under the FR label. I personally think the whole elves angle has been done to death in novels over the years but I respect the fact that many of you want to see another sourcebook on it. Hell, I'd buy it too I'm just interested in geograhical areas more (shrugs). No more "done to death" than humans. Earlier in this post someone mentioned Impiltur. Better yet Impiltur, Damara, Narfell, Vaasa and Sossal. Or, Mulhorand, Unther Chessenta, Murghom and Semphar. Or even The Vilhon Reach. I don't have a problem with those, other than a slight distaste for Mulhorand, Unther, and Chessenta, which are almost as much carbon copies of real life civilizations as Kara-Tur and Zakhara are. But at least they have unique histories.
GothicDan 03-22-06, 10:23 PM	Ranger: It has a close resemblance, so why not use Europe as a template reference? Because superficial similarities do not make cultures analogous. Both Japan and England had mounted, heavy-armor wearing warriors who were famous for their proficiency in types of swords - does that mean that they can be used interchangeably?
Ranger REG 03-23-06, 01:44 AM	Because superficial similarities do not make cultures analogous. Both Japan and England had mounted, heavy-armor wearing warriors who were famous for their proficiency in types of swords - does that mean that they can be used interchangeably? If you mean the Cavalier class from a certain third-party d20 product (i.e., Cavalier's Handbook, which takes its homage from 1e that Samurai is a cavalier sub-class), then yeah it could. ;) But the mechanics is just a portion of the character's whole. After all, a fighter from Helm/Spain is not the same as a fighter from Maztica/Aztec. A Faerunian/Waterdeep cavalier might relate to a European knight. A Kara-Turan/Kozakuran samurai might relate to a Japanese samurai.
WhrenKehrsyn 03-23-06, 02:01 AM	Ok, you havent read the Last Mythal, a large portion of both books do take place on Evermeet. There is virtually no mention of any impact of the attack on Evermeet itself, there is a some mention of losing many high mages in RotAW, but it doesnt appear to have had much of an impact. See, I think of things more logically - I want that which most logically requires the most information, for the most part, based on facts like how overall influential a topic is, how drastic the changes have been concerning the topic since its last update, and how applicable it is to the original intentions of the Realms as created by Ed Greenwood. If this were true you would be calling for books on poorly detailed regions of the world, not for yet more stuff on elves. If Obould had launched a large-scale attack on multiple Dwarven strongholds already, I would at least consider the idea - but has he? Yes, he has. Hes founded an orc nation in the north. Its quite large and is even in a position to threaten Silverymoon. In fact Nesme (yes its not dwarven but human, I know) is wiped completely out. The Silvermarches book we have is woefully out of date. So no, it hasnt had a direct impact on the region, unless you consider the founding of an orc nation, the attack on and defeat of strong dwarven cities, the wiping out of a human town, and a direct threat to Silverymoon not a direct impact. Incidentally Cormyr has had some pretty big changes since its last update as well. The fact that TSR changed "Asia" to "Kara-Tur" and pasted it onto the side of Faerun with next to no thought is uncreative, offensive, disrespectful, and in my opinion, not terribly "fantastic." I agree, and thats why when/if they do create sourcebooks for these regions I hope theyll do them the justice they deserve. These cultures are as rich and as maleable for a wonderful setting as the Europe which the Faerunian cultures are modeled off of (they are modeled on real world cultures, just like any other literature). I don't want valuable time and money to be spent on detailing things that I could just as easily find in a book at the library, at the expense of seeing legitimately inspired and previously undetailed Realms pushed back. Ive been trying to make that very same point this entire thread... As to tying them into the Realms more, that would cause more retconning Since theres virtually nothing about these locals any retconning to them doesnt have to affect the realms proper. If they were to retcon a Kara-Tur history it affects Kara-Tur, not Faerun. I wouldn't give a hoot if WotC decided to detail Kara-Tur or Zakhara again, so long as it wasn't marketed under the FR label. If, when the supply of regions in the Realms proper is exhausted, they should decide to give these areas some 3e detailing and give them the time they give other regions theres no reason the designers cant make these areas someting unique and interesting. Theres no reason to throw them out just because they werent given the support they should have been. Because superficial similarities do not make cultures analogous. *Points at Kara-Tur, Zakhara, and Maztica*
Dark Wizard 03-23-06, 02:40 AM	The "problem" that seems to come up every now and then, which brings about severe disagreement, is the claim that Kara-Tur is ripped from real world history books with just bits of fantasy elements interjected in. The counter claim is that Faerun is the same but using Europe instead. My own view on the topic is that Kara-Tur is not similar to Asia like Faerun is similar to Europe. The analogy Faerun is to Europe as Kara-Tur is to Asia is not true. I will not deny that Faerun is heavily inspired by European myths and legends, but I will put forth that it is more effective in using the archetypes and various cultures of Europe in a more non-standard mix yet still remain coherent (most of the time, FR isn't perfectly consistent after 20 years of development by numerous designers). The other continents tagged on by TSR were not design in the same manner. This is not bad, just not Realmsian. Perhaps those settings would be better off produced under their own banner, but that is unlikely to happen since they have been tied into FR for so long and even the 3e books made mention of them. They did change the cosmology, so the possibility remains. If they are to be part of the world, it would be good to update them with an aim to making them fit in more within the existing structure of Forgotten Realms. Zakhara is okay, it seems less tied to existing real world places and has closer ties with Faerun, as Faerun has closer ties to the mythology of the middle east in the form of A Thousand and One Nights type areas (All imported from genie culture and not real world Arabian Nigths). FR already has a lot about Zakhara through the representation of Anauroch, some indirect mention in the Shining South, and the Arabian adventures concepts is present in Calimshan. Maztica is just a small far off area in the "New World" of Toril. It's farther than even Evermeet. Amn has other concerns now than some remote colony across the sea. Certainly Kara-Tur, a massive continent as large if not larger than Faerun should get a book before Maztica. Kara-Tur can directly affect Faerun through land (and sea if wanted), as we have seen in the Tuigan Horde. The trade routes are harsh, but direct. There are powerful political and cultural entities in Kara-Tur that have potential to affect large swaths of Toril itself. It might be contradictory that I'm drawing a real life parallel, but I like to think of it more as proximity and overlapping spheres of influence. Europe made contact and traded with Asia far before Europe stumbled upon and made a presence in the New World. Alexander conquered his way to India. Han Dynasty travelers came within a few miles of a Roman trade town. Marco Polo was just one of many Italian traders to "adventure" in the Far East. The entire goal of Columbus going out to sea was to find more direct routes to Asia. Should Faerun not have some interest (and vice versa) in this huge land mass east of them with empires and cultures as old and influential as their own?
Dark Wizard 03-23-06, 03:26 AM	But what is "Realmsian enough"? Ed Greenwood never did explored nor charted that territory. He only did what is [ethnically] familiar to him, unless he can correct me that he did do some Asian Studies program. From what I have read, the extent of Ed Greenwood's original Faerun went as far east as Narfell/Raumathar/The Endless Wastes and Mulhorand/Semphar/Murghom/Imaskar. For the former they were various groups of horse nomads. One might immediately think Mongols, Huns and Uyghurs, and I am not ruling out he was inspired somewhat by those groups. He made the area a steppe, what else are the people going to live off of? Also Narfell and Raumathar were once nations of mercenary combat wizards who augmented and changed their homelands with magic, rather different than the Earth horse nomads of the steppes roots, even when removing magic from consideration. Ed Greenwood merely mentioned that Mulhorand was like Egypt in climate, other designers took that and just made Mulhorand FR's version of Egypt. Ed Greenwood had very little or nothing to do with Kara-Tur, Zakhara or Maztica. Neither did most of the designers who have written often for Faerun. This is not a shot against the designers of those areas, they are all nice settings, but they have too little to do with the established Realms or the flavor of the Realms to be "Realmsian." Particularly Kara-Tur since I think it should have a major impact on Faerun, beyond any other continent, though probably equal with Zakhara. Disclaimer: I will say that this is only my opinion of what Realmsian is, and while I think many fans of the setting will agree with me, it remains my opinion, though I do try to give support as to why I think this way. I do not say that FR is void of real Earth influences, TSR put many in, and there were some minor bits already. What was important was that in Faerun, those influences were internalized and changed, played around with and made unique. For example, Calimshan is very heavily based on A Thousand and One Nights and other Arabian legends complete with genies and what not (and there is a historical reason for it, genie colonization). However, at the same time there were Elven and Dwarven nations in the forest and underground of that area. Elves and Dwarves as presented in FR are primarily based on the myths of Northern Europe (and even then they are distilled from Tolkien's divergent interpretation and then further fine tuned for FR). Calimshan had long interations with the elves of the forests of Tethir and Mir and the dwarves of Shanatar. This has significantly shaped the history and culture of Calimshan through wars and trade. All I keep seeing in Kara-Tur are nations that can be pinned to the flavor and culture of specific areas and time periods of real world Asia. Shou is roughly on the continent at the latitude that China would be and coincidentally has nearly an identical culture. Koryo is a pennisula, so is Korea and at just about the same location next to Shou as Korea is to China. Not to mention Koryo is just an older name of Korea. Wa and Kozakura are both islands like Japan and cover two periods of Japanese history. I think Ra-Kathi is ruled by the Dalai Lama just like the real Dalai Lama is the (technical) ruler of Tibet. That would be like if the king of Impiltur is called the Kaiser or the the monarch of Tethyr is called El Rey for being based on Spain. Not that FR is perfect, the Syl-Pasha is the technical ruler of Calimshan, and Mulhorand has a Pharoah, but those areas all have been given extraplanar explanations to help make them fit and have been thoroughly worked into FR histories and cultures by vigorous expansion of details away from their initial Earth based roots. Not to forget the Shoon Imperium was ruled by a Qysar (and entirely fictional term). In short, Faerun tried its best to avoid real world parallels, Kara-Tur was doing its best to copy from the real Asia. I'm not saying there should be no inspiration from real world cultures, that is foolish since Earth's history and cultures are so rich, especially when expanded to non-European it is downright massive and near overwhelming. However, FR was based on taking elements from myriad histories, myths and cultures and reworking them into entirely new combinations with plenty of new ideas added in. Kara-Tur has far too much in common with real Earth to appropriate fit into that FR mold.
GothicDan 03-23-06, 01:15 PM	Ok, you havent read the Last Mythal, a large portion of both books do take place on Evermeet. There is virtually no mention of any impact of the attack on Evermeet itself, there is a some mention of losing many high mages in RotAW, but it doesnt appear to have had much of an impact. And Ed has pointed out personally that the Last Mythal trilogy isn't the best collection of novels to judge the lore of the Realms off of. He said it's the best-written out of the novels - but that's not the same thing. Not to be offensive, but I do not think that the majority of steady WotC employees have enough knowledge about the Elves to actually take into account their entire history and culture when writing newer material, because it was the 2E ones who wrote it all, much of it before the WotC staff was even hired. Ed Greenwood, Elaine Cunningham, Steve Schend - those are the people to talk to about what's really going on with the Elves. Elaine Cunningham also expresses great distaste with how Elves and Elven culture (Moonblades, specifically) have been handled in 3E, from a lore point of view. Being as she's the creator, both in sourcebooks and in her novels (as well as having written the Evermeet novel, the Arilyn books, and having input on the Evermeet supplement), when she thinks that there's something wrong enough with WotC's portrayal of the Elves that she has to vocalize it, there's obviously something they're doing wrong. Counting on the words of a group of books who portrayed almost everything about the Elves as incorrect (from a lore point of view, once more), which the very original creators and developers of the Tel'Quessir disagree with, is not something I would do. In debate, you have to check not only the accuracy of your sources, but also the reliability of your sources... - Queen Amlaruil has always had red-gold hair (referenced numerous times in the Evermeet). - Moonblades were always only the province of full-blooded Elves, and Moon Elves at that (since this was to specifically teach the Sun Elves a lesson; Arilyn was special because she was an exception in that she had a unique Elven Soul that all other Half-Elves did not share). - House Starym was predominantly a Moon Elf House by the time that they assassinated the heir to Cormanthyr (regardless of what LEoF will tell you). - Elven High Magi are not killed off in droves by simply hurled fireballs and lightning bolts (even mechanically this makes no sense, as at the very least to have the EHM PrC in 3E you need to be at least ~23rd level; so the RotAW novel depicted it incorrectly from a lore-wise point of view). - Originally, the Killing Storm was not pinned on the Aryvandaaran High Magi; they were merely one of many culprits, and WotC changing this to a definite fact only serves to further distort the conception of Sun Elves in Faerun. - The Ilythiiri didn't need Wealdath to corrupt them, because Ghaunadaur already had his slimy appendages on them for thousands of years. - Eladrin were never "Elven angels" or direct servants of the Seldarine. - Elven High Magic was powerful because it was an Elven melding of personal spirit and innate magic, which was disrupted by any non-Elven blood, regardless of how magical or potent it is; it's powerful because it's Elven. - Elven High Magic could never be stored in anything but a Sel'Kiira. - Part of understanding and being able to use Elven High Magic was personally experiencing the passage of time as it affects things, and gaining patience; it has nothing to do with how powerful or talented an apprentice is. - Mythals never had anchors; ANY of them, and NO non-Elven civilization that we know of was ever able to duplicate them with any worthwhile emulation of their power, Epic Spellcasting or no Epic Spellcasting. - Contrary to popular belief, Sun Elves are by far and large Good, with a considerable Neutral population, and an Evil one only slighter higher than Moon Elves; WotC is demonizing them left and right. I hoped this would be ammended in Realms of the Elves, but it has only made it worse. - Corellon was always allowed to have LG Clerics, as Sun Elves tend more strongly towards Law, and they make up the vast bulk of his clergy; so according to WotC, either he has very few Clerics, or the Sun Elves have radically shifted alignments, and their entire history should be rewritten to reflect this. - Eilistraee chose to live in the Abyss because she thought she'd be able to better aid the Drow there in reaching the light again; according to WotC, the emotional relevance and compassionate of her self-banishment is completely irrelevant, as they put her back into Arvandor with no explanation. I'm sure I could go on. How can you consider WotC to be a reliable source when they have made so many profound errors, either out of ignorance or intentionally, especially when there's been little to no explanation given? If this were true you would be calling for books on poorly detailed regions of the world, not for yet more stuff on elves. No, on more regions of Faerun. Ed Greenwood did NOT detail or have any hand in Kara-Tur, Zakhara, Maztica, etc. That was all TSR's doing and most likely completely out of his control, whether or not he approved of it. The fact that the creator of the Realms had no intention to tack on these direct real-world carbon copies means that they have no right to be there; it's offensive to the sheer depth of history and interconnectedness and continuity we see in Ed's Realms to simply glue a shoddy cardboard box onto the side of a fantastical palce. Yes, he has. Hes founded an orc nation in the north. Its quite large and is even in a position to threaten Silverymoon. In fact Nesme (yes its not dwarven but human, I know) is wiped completely out. The Silvermarches book we have is woefully out of date. So no, it hasnt had a direct impact on the region, unless you consider the founding of an orc nation, the attack on and defeat of strong dwarven cities, the wiping out of a human town, and a direct threat to Silverymoon not a direct impact. Incidentally Cormyr has had some pretty big changes since its last update as well. I really don't think that Silverymoon is terribly threatened, given the Lord's Alliance and the fact that Obould has next to no magical aid whatsoever except for a few Shamans. All Alustriel would have to do is call together her Sisters and get the Simbul to initiate a massive Epic Ritual, with the aid of all of the Guard-Mages of Faerun, and transport thousands of Orcs at a time into the ocean. As for the Dwarven nations, if there truly has been as much impact as you say, then I agree that there should be more supplements focusing on them, especially considering Dwarves Deep is quite old. However, using your same logic, you would have to also admit that a book on the Elven nations which have recently undergone large-scale attacks is needed. As for Cormyr, I agree with that one. Just because I say I want an Elven Supplement, which I feel is needed, does not mean that there are no other ones which I feel are as needed just as much, if not moreso. I was taking up the Elven flag out of defense, not offense; I made a statement, and it was questioned, so logically I had to respond to it to show the reasoning behind my opinion. I agree, and thats why when/if they do create sourcebooks for these regions I hope theyll do them the justice they deserve. These cultures are as rich and as maleable for a wonderful setting as the Europe which the Faerunian cultures are modeled off of (they are modeled on real world cultures, just like any other literature). I think that truly talented authors and learned people do not model their literature off of real world cultures. At least, they do not model them off of specific cultures which are recognizable as their real world counterparts. It's true that it is psychologically impossible to imagine and create something completely outside of one's realm of experience, but the Realms are based loosely on social and cultural archetypes and trends that can be found unilaterally across the world and throughout time. Faerun is based off of Human Culture, not European Culture. And if WotC is going to have to completely redesign Kara-Tur or the like to make them more interesting and less carbon copies (which they will have to do, given that they ARE carbon copies, down to individual nations, language styles, and historical events), then they are just effectively appending ANOTHER new continent onto Faerun, with no precedent or cultural ties to it within a span of tens of thousands of years of Faerunian history. In real life, cultures do not simply pop up next to each other without interacting heavily and regularly, especially ones with access to magic and at least limited technology. Just look at the real world - both the West and the East have affected each other in amazingly profound ways. Faerun's history is already written, and while we'll never know nearly all of it, there isn't a hint of significant cultural interaction with the other continents. I don't understand what the problem is with simply recreating Kara-Tur, or Maztica, or Zakhara, in the way you are asking - newly envisioned, with less analogous real world counterparts - but not attaching it to Faerun. You CANNOT change things this massive and expect it to have had no affect, whatsoever, on the development of the bordering nations, which is one of the two primary reasons why I so oppose the idea of these continents in the first place being in the FR setting (the other being their complete lack of creativity), and why I find so many things WotC has done sloppy and shortsighted. And lastly, if you agree with the fact that they are far too similar to their real life counterparts, why do you even want them? It seems like you want an Asian-inspired setting, and not specifically Kara-Tur at all. Rokugan was made, and you dislike that - but why? From what I know of it, I vastly prefer it to Kara-Tur, since it's vaguely Asian in feel (which is the most any fantasy setting should be in relation to any real world culture), but with unique history and cultural twists and traditions. Why do you want, exactly? WotC has slapped their sticker on an Eastern setting already, which you disapprove of, yet you also disapprove of Kara-Tur as it was designed. Ive been trying to make that very same point this entire thread... I have never seen a library that carries a single D&D book in it. Since theres virtually nothing about these locals any retconning to them doesnt have to affect the realms proper. If they were to retcon a Kara-Tur history it affects Kara-Tur, not Faerun. So you're saying that if America had never sent Captain Perry to Japan, it would still be the Japan it is today? Cultures interact - people sail, people trade. It would most certainly affect Faerun. If, when the supply of regions in the Realms proper is exhausted, they should decide to give these areas some 3e detailing and give them the time they give other regions theres no reason the designers cant make these areas someting unique and interesting. Theres no reason to throw them out just because they werent given the support they should have been. And Ed has literally thousands upon thousands of pages of Realms material that has never been printed, and there is over 30,000 years of history (so far) only lightly detailed about the Realms. I'm not throwing them out because they weren't given the support they should have been - I'm throwing them out because they were bad. They were uninspired, poorly appended to the Realms, and poorly detailed. You can't blame the quality of something on the support it was given when the very idea in the first place was bad - which you've already agreed with. It was detailed exactly as it should have been - which is how TSR wanted it to be. *Points at Kara-Tur, Zakhara, and Maztica* You're pointing at something which has nothing to do with my statement. I'm confused. *cough* Boxer Rebellion *cough* Gengis Khan *cough* Japan/Vietnam/China *cough* A little more than superficial if you ask me.
Lord Karsus 03-23-06, 01:51 PM	-Dan, I cannot believe that you forgot to point out what happened to the Srinshee in 3e/3.5e. That surely should make the list. Luckly, though, that was all fixed, to a point, in Realms of the Elves.
WhrenKehrsyn 03-23-06, 02:13 PM	Counting on the words of a group of books who portrayed almost everything about the Elves as incorrect (from a lore point of view, once more), which the very original creators and developers of the Tel'Quessir disagree with, is not something I would do. In debate, you have to check not only the accuracy of your sources, but also the reliability of your sources... I'm sure I could go on. How can you consider WotC to be a reliable source when they have made so many profound errors, either out of ignorance or intentionally, especially when there's been little to no explanation given? What TSR and now WotC publish IS official canon, whether you, Mr.Greenwood, or Mrs.Cunningham like it or not. The Realms stopped being exclusively Mr.Greenwoods sandbox when he decided to sell it. The things published in the novels and in 3.x edition of the Forgotten Realms replace old edition stuff where it contradicts. No, on more regions of Faerun. Ed Greenwood did NOT detail or have any hand in Kara-Tur, Zakhara, Maztica, etc. That was all TSR's doing and most likely completely out of his control, whether or not he approved of it. The fact that the creator of the Realms had no intention to tack on these direct real-world carbon copies means that they have no right to be there; it's offensive to the sheer depth of history and interconnectedness and continuity we see in Ed's Realms to simply glue a shoddy cardboard box onto the side of a fantastical palce. I agree that other Faerunian regions should be worked on first, Ive said that much numerous times. But whether Mr.Greenwood had anything to do with these regions, or even wanted them there, does not matter at all. They are part of the campaign setting, even if you dont like it. Part of the charm of the Realms is that they do grow, and change, and evolve. Dont take that away from the setting because you dont like a particular region. They werent given the time they should have been by TSR, but should they be given some consideration in 3.5 edition that can change. My point there wasnt these particular regions however, I was commenting that there are other regions, in Faerun proper, that could use a good deal of updating, and youre not calling for books for those regions. Cormyr and the north were my examples of this. I think that truly talented authors and learned people do not model their literature off of real world cultures. At least, they do not model them off of specific cultures which are recognizable as their real world counterparts Yes, they do, because theres nothing else to model them on. They do not copy them, I think is what youre getting at, and that is true. . It's true that it is psychologically impossible to imagine and create something completely outside of one's realm of experience, but the Realms are based loosely on social and cultural archetypes and trends that can be found unilaterally across the world and throughout time. The Realms proper are modeled exclusively on Europe, portions of the Middle East, and North Africa. Nowhere else. In real life, cultures do not simply pop up next to each other without interacting heavily and regularly, especially ones with access to magic and at least limited technology. Just look at the real world - both the West and the East have affected each other in amazingly profound ways. Faerun's history is already written, and while we'll never know nearly all of it, there isn't a hint of significant cultural interaction with the other continents. Theres enough interaction with Kara-Tur, and aside from trade routes Kara-Turs history is independant from Faerun enough that any significant changes to the area wont impact Faerun. The same with Maztica. This issue does have a much greater impact on Zakhara though. I don't understand what the problem is with simply recreating Kara-Tur, or Maztica, or Zakhara, in the way you are asking - newly envisioned, with less analogous real world counterparts - but not attaching it to Faerun. And I dont understand why you vehemently are against allowing them to remain in the campaign setting. So long as the small and minor events connecting them to Faerun remain the same any other changes to thier own histories do not affect Faerun, at all. And lastly, if you agree with the fact that they are far too similar to their real life counterparts, why do you even want them? It seems like you want an Asian-inspired setting, and not specifically Kara-Tur at all. To be honest I dont want Kara-Tur or Zakhara, only Maztica, and that only for reasons that dont relate to this thread. Ive also stated that I dont think any of these regions, even the one I like, should be looked at until the rest of Faerun proper has been given its due. However, the point of this thread was to discuss those regions, so I am. I have looked at Rokugan stuff, and it is very interesting. If I were to have a need for an eastern region in a Forgotten Realms game I would just drop Rokugan into it. Rokugan was made, and you dislike that - but why? Youre mistaking me for someone else. This post is the first Ive mentioned or refered to Rokugan at all, and I by no means dislike it. I own several Rokugan books, if I disliked it I would not have bought them. I have never seen a library that carries a single D&D book in it. I doubt this. I can find everything in my library, from D&D books of all three editions to the most obscure anime. I seriously doubt our little quiant libraries here in New Mexico are so much more comprehensive than the ones you have there in California (the thing next to your name on your posts says you live in Cali, so Im assuming thats correct). So you're saying that if America had never sent Captain Perry to Japan, it would still be the Japan it is today? Cultures interact - people sail, people trade. It would most certainly affect Faerun. This has nothing to do with anything I said. Japan had a history and culture before Captain Perry traveled there did it not? Giving Kara-Tur and Maztica a history and culture that is more realmsian by no means they can no longer trade with Faerun, or have any contact with it. I'm throwing them out because they were bad Then fix them. If we threw out everything that was bad instead of fixing it the Realms would be pretty bare bones by now.
GothicDan 03-23-06, 03:16 PM	What TSR and now WotC publish IS official canon, whether you, Mr.Greenwood, or Mrs.Cunningham like it or not. The Realms stopped being exclusively Mr.Greenwoods sandbox when he decided to sell it. The things published in the novels and in 3.x edition of the Forgotten Realms replace old edition stuff where it contradicts. Firstly, I said nothing about it being non-canon. Just because someone has the temporal ability to make laws does not mean that those laws are necessarily just. Secondly, Ed Greenwood's written words - including those online - count as canon, too, still. It's in his contract. If you're content to simply buy everything WotC is feeding you, then I can't discuss things with you any longer. If I saw a little girl being beaten in the street by her father, and it was "lawful" for him to do this to her, I would try to stop it regardless of what the blasted legislature says. WotC has also said, according to Rich Baker, that there is no plans, and no desire, to redo Kara-Tur, yet you are not content with this fact. If you can be discontent with one fact about WotC, why do you not feel that the rest of their stances should be questioned as well? I agree that other Faerunian regions should be worked on first, Ive said that much numerous times. But whether Mr.Greenwood had anything to do with these regions, or even wanted them there, does not matter at all. Actually, it matters to quite a few of us. When you make statements, make sure that you do not generalize so much as to insinuate the opinions of others, especially when you are trying to use it as a stance in an argument, because it's purely preference. They are part of the campaign setting, even if you dont like it. Part of the charm of the Realms is that they do grow, and change, and evolve. Dont take that away from the setting because you dont like a particular region. They werent given the time they should have been by TSR, but should they be given some consideration in 3.5 edition that can change. So, your "shoulds" are just fine, but none of my "shoulds" are? I don't follow your logic. You say that WotC should or should not do this or that, while I am saying that they should or should not do X or Y. Both of our stances are based purely on opinion, except for the fact that my opinion is backed by the actual opinions of the oldest, and best-learned writers of Realms products. Why is yours any more founded than mine? I specifically made notes as to why I felt mine were better-founded, yet you have not done the same. Why "should" WotC detail these areas? You used the argument that, according to WotC's novels, which are blatant contradictions to a number of things already established, "nothing" is happening in Elven lands. By the same token, according to WotC, we have heard of "nothing" happening in Kara-Tur and the like. I'm not saying you cannot be hypocritical, but in doing so, you weaken the very reasoning you're trying to use to make a point. My point there wasnt these particular regions however, I was commenting that there are other regions, in Faerun proper, that could use a good deal of updating, and youre not calling for books for those regions. Cormyr and the north were my examples of this. So unless I say everything I feel or think in a given time period, on a single thread, I automatically do not think anything else? I feel a bit offended. ;) I pointed out the Elven lands first because, first and foremost, I feel that they have undergone just as much as Cormyr or the Silver Marches (because WotC has not logically shown the states their lands are currently in), and only THEN because I personally like them. If I did not feel that Evermeet, Evereska, Cormanthyr, the new nation, etc., had undergone as drastic a change as other regions, I would not have mentioned them at all. But when it comes down to three shirts of the exact same price, same material, same style, same cut, and same durability, I'm going to choose the black one over the red one, because that's my preference. Yes, they do, because theres nothing else to model them on. They do not copy them, I think is what youre getting at, and that is true. Not at all. Read Dark Wizard's posts concerning this; it's about my stance, as well. The Realms proper are modeled exclusively on Europe, portions of the Middle East, and North Africa. Nowhere else. It all depends on what you consider "modeled." I wouldn't consider Chult to be North African; it has a similar climate, geography, etc., but you would expect to find that in any of a number of alternate Earth-like worlds. The people are dark skinned... Big deal. Last time I checked, Africa wasn't a primarily monotheistic culture, and there weren't dinosaurs running around in it. And let's think of some nations, past and present, that I cannot even fathom having equivalent real-world equivalents. The Vilhon Reach, Turmish, Thay, Aglarond, Netheril, Imaskar, Narfell, Raumathar, ANY Elven nation, Rashemen, Impultir, Sossal.... And I'm sure others can continue my list if they wish. I've heard it said, over and over, that Faerun is based on Europe. I have yet to see a single person draw any hard, direct analogies between a single nation of Faerun and one of Europe in such a way that it could not simply be generalized to an archetype applying to any of a number of nations across the world and throughout time. (This is not including Chessenta, Mulhorand, or Unther, which TSR later added on, and also to a point the Moonshaes, which was originally set in Dragonlance.) People simply say, "Oh, Cormyr is so obviously England!" or "Waterdeep is London!", yet when I ask for specific examples, I never get a single one that is worth the volume of ink it takes to write it in salt. And when I refuse these ridiculously paltry, claims, similarly vague, insubstantial arguments are repeated rather than backed up or expanded upon with actual fact or information. Theres enough interaction with Kara-Tur, and aside from trade routes Kara-Turs history is independant from Faerun enough that any significant changes to the area wont impact Faerun. The same with Maztica. This issue does have a much greater impact on Zakhara though. And that's my point, which is the one that Dark Wizard pointed out. How could two civilizations as great as Faerun and Kara-Tur logically have sat next to each other for thousands of years and not had more influence on each other? I don't know if you know much about history, but I know enough to know that this is, plain and simply, wrong. It is illogical. And if all you want Kara-Tur to do is sit next to Faerun and look pretty, without the two ever really interacting with each other (which would give Kara-Tur more of a bloody believable reason to be there in the first place!), why in the worlds do you want Kara-Tur to be published under the Forgotten Realms setting? And I dont understand why you vehemently are against allowing them to remain in the campaign setting. So long as the small and minor events connecting them to Faerun remain the same any other changes to thier own histories do not affect Faerun, at all. Because I have an issue with the fact that Kara-Tur is there at all, BECAUSE of the fact that they haven't had more cultural interaction. After Japan was connected to the rest of the world by Perry's arrival, they industrialized and grew massively in technology and international trade in the space of only a few centuries, and at that time they had far, far less technology available (not to mention no magic) than Kara-Tur as a whole, who even has a sizable spelljammer fleet. It would be absurd to assume that a nation who is quite obviously into exploration and trade (hence their spelljamming fleet) would have had much more interaction with Faerun. If they are willing to trail through the phlogiston of the Crystal Sphere to entirely different planets, they most certainly would want to investigate a few hundred miles west. Now, does that clear up my vehement opposition a bit? To be honest I dont want Kara-Tur or Zakhara, only Maztica, and that only for reasons that dont relate to this thread. Ive also stated that I dont think any of these regions, even the one I like, should be looked at until the rest of Faerun proper has been given its due. However, the point of this thread was to discuss those regions, so I am. I have looked at Rokugan stuff, and it is very interesting. If I were to have a need for an eastern region in a Forgotten Realms game I would just drop Rokugan into it. About Rokugan - I must have mixed you up with another person 'exalting' Kara-Tur, who said that they didn't like Rokugan. :) I'm basing my opinions firstly off of fact, and then off of personal preference. And the fact is, as parts of Abeir-Toril, the above three-mentioned cultures are not creative; they are not tied properly into the Realms, historically, as they would realistically be if they truly had been there all along; they would detract from the ability to receive actual new information about the Realms themselves; and probably a few other minor reasons that would come to me, in time. That being said, I kind of like Zakhara, personally, but that doesn't mean I think that they should detail it more. Asking them to detail Kar-Tur is equivalent to asking them to detail Baator in a Realms book. Both are "connected" to Faerun (one through the Tree, the other via land), and they both have (relatively) little impact on Faerun itself. And, lastly, both are based directly off of real-world concepts, although Baator's is primarily mythological in inspiration, and its reference source (Dante's "Inferno") is far, far smaller than the history and culture of Asia, so to detail it, TSR HAD to be creative and make their own things up. And it was Ed Greenwood, consequently, who wrote literally hundreds of pages of Baator; not much of it got into print, and Planescape took a more philosophical take on the plane than Ed did, but the fact that he DOES care about the intracasies about something he makes enough to make it idiosyncratic and separated from any direct real world myths is evidenced in his work. He went so far as to detail the dietary economy of the Nine Hells (which consisted of randomly opening suck holes/portals which opened to various Prime Material Planes and pulled in goodies); that's not exactly something that was probably inspired by real world analogies. Certainly not European, at any rate; I haven't heard of many portals opening to Hell recently. Youre mistaking me for someone else. This post is the first Ive mentioned or refered to Rokugan at all, and I by no means dislike it. I own several Rokugan books, if I disliked it I would not have bought them. Yep. I apologize. I doubt this. I can find everything in my library, from D&D books of all three editions to the most obscure anime. I seriously doubt our little quiant libraries here in New Mexico are so much more comprehensive than the ones you have there in California (the thing next to your name on your posts says you live in Cali, so Im assuming thats correct). *Blinks* One of the first rules of debate is that you NEVER accuse an opponent of lying. You disprove them - you do not say they are lying. I cannot fathom that you would imply to know better about my personal experiences than I do. I live in Southern New Jersey, right off of the Pine Barrens. Currently I'm attending a small private college in Collegeville, PA. Thank you. ;) This has nothing to do with anything I said. Japan had a history and culture before Captain Perry traveled there did it not? Giving Kara-Tur and Maztica a history and culture that is more realmsian by no means they can no longer trade with Faerun, or have any contact with it. You said that if they were to retcon Kara-Tur history it would affect Kara-Tur and not Faerun. My point was that since it's been historically proven that cultures mingle and exchange given time, that by retconning Kara-Tur history, it would also retcon whatever interactions it had with Faerun. My analogy was to say, that if Earth was a campaign setting, and WotC retconned history so that Japan had never been visited by Perry, the Japan as we know it today would not exist. While today Japan is a technology advanced civilization, at that time, they had barely a hint of technology, and due to them lacking many natural resources used in technological advancement (and most likely some cultural preferences), would have never advanced technologically without outside contact, whether it had been from China or the US. Then fix them. If we threw out everything that was bad instead of fixing it the Realms would be pretty bare bones by now. That's why I don't play 3E or adhere to many of their canon changes/events. They are bad. If I have to spend time fiddling with a campaign setting, I don't want it to be spent "fixing" it to the point that it is usable, I want to spend that time adding to it or plotting within the framework to create whatever campaign I want to play in it. I'm not the type to go out and buy an old car just to fix it, certainly not when the car design itself is inherently flawed and I don't see a single redeeming factor in it. And especially not when I already have an efficient, shiny car that I like absolutely everything about.
GungHo 03-23-06, 03:34 PM	What would be even more creative would be if they simply restarted them from scratch completely - as in, not saying, "let's make an Asian culture," but rather, "let's make a culture." As to tying them into the Realms more, that would cause more retconning, and when WotC retcons stuff, they never take into account the myriad of effects it would cause on the rest of history. It's not necessarily a bad idea to have a "flavored" setting, but it can be done with a lot more class than was initially done... which was "we wanted ninjas and samurais, so we created ninjas and samurais... where we gonna put them, well, let's slap them over here." It'd be just as bad as saying "we wanted Roman Legions, so we stuck them in Turmish" or "we wanted some Zulus, so we stuck them in the Shaar." And, yes... it should have been done without just slapping it onto the Realms. If they really wanted to do it and felt there was a reasonable market, then they should have done better work integrating it. Unfortunately, beyond putting up a large magical wall or a large sea and making it on it's own separated continent, it's kinda unbelievable for these people to appear out of nowhere as having always been there. I don't recall much about these areas being detailed in 1E, but that was before my time. There were some adventures, a "Trail Maps" booklet, and a boxed set. Not a whole lot. I don't even know why they put that one guy in the Hall of Heroes. Hardly anyone ever heard of him.
WhrenKehrsyn 03-23-06, 04:15 PM	If you're content to simply buy everything WotC is feeding you, then I can't discuss things with you any longer. If I saw a little girl being beaten in the street by her father, and it was "lawful" for him to do this to her, I would try to stop it regardless of what the blasted legislature says. First off this is a very poor analogy, choosing to accept the changes a company who owns a fictional world makes to that world is in no way shape or form similar to real life abuse of anyone including children, and to imply it is is both disrespectful and insulting to the victims of such violence. You said WotCs published material was incorrect and inaccurate, and you based that statement on the fact that some people do not like the material. I pointed out that this was not true, WotC has full creative control of thier property and what they say is in fact correct and accurate despite you or others not liking it. The, 'You dont share my point of view so youre not worth talking to' response is pretty childish as well. WotC has also said, according to Rich Baker, that there is no plans, and no desire, to redo Kara-Tur, yet you are not content with this fact. If you can be discontent with one fact about WotC, why do you not feel that the rest of their stances should be questioned as well? I have never said I was discontent with them not publishing new Kara-Tur material, in fact I have pointed out that I am not terribly interested in Kara-Tur. If theres things I dont like I simply change it for my campaign, that doesnt change the fact that what WotC publishes is the official canon. Actually, it matters to quite a few of us. When you make statements, make sure that you do not generalize so much as to insinuate the opinions of others, especially when you are trying to use it as a stance in an argument, because it's purely preference. That it matters to you is your preference. WotC does not take into consideration whether Mr.Greenwood had anything to do with a region or not when they decide to detail it. Whether he worked on it or not does not matter. So, your "shoulds" are just fine, but none of my "shoulds" are? I don't follow your logic. You say that WotC should or should not do this or that, while I am saying that they should or should not do X or Y. I have not said WotC should do anything, in fact in the statement you quoted I said, 'should they be given some consideration...' in which case 'should' is used as 'in the case that' Ill try to refrain from using the word that way in the future. Why "should" WotC detail these areas? You used the argument that, according to WotC's novels, which are blatant contradictions to a number of things already established, "nothing" is happening in Elven lands. By the same token, according to WotC, we have heard of "nothing" happening in Kara-Tur and the like. I'm not saying you cannot be hypocritical, but in doing so, you weaken the very reasoning you're trying to use to make a point. I never said they should do anything. There is no hypocracy here. So unless I say everything I feel or think in a given time period, on a single thread, I automatically do not think anything else? I feel a bit offended. I pointed out the Elven lands first because, first and foremost, I feel that they have undergone just as much as Cormyr or the Silver Marches (because WotC has not logically shown the states their lands are currently in), and only THEN because I personally like them. You said: See, I think of things more logically - I want that which most logically requires the most information, for the most part, based on facts like how overall influential a topic is, how drastic the changes have been concerning the topic since its last update, and how applicable it is to the original intentions of the Realms as created by Ed Greenwood. But you ONLY discuss the elven states. This IS a personal preferance. You have barely even acknowledged that theres other regions in need of updating and, aside from Cormyr, any that have been brought up you have aggressively discounted. This isnt about whether the elven states do or do not need an update it is about you wanting one. About Rokugan - I must have mixed you up with another person 'exalting' Kara-Tur, who said that they didn't like Rokugan. I have not 'exatled' anything anywhere in this thread, and especially not Kara-Tur. *Blinks* One of the first rules of debate is that you NEVER accuse an opponent of lying. You disprove them - you do not say they are lying. I cannot fathom that you would imply to know better about my personal experiences than I do. I did not say you were lying nor did I imply I knew your personal experiences any better than you did. I questioned the statement and gave my reasoning why. My analogy was to say, that if Earth was a campaign setting, and WotC retconned history so that Japan had never been visited by Perry, the Japan as we know it today would not exist. While today Japan is a technology advanced civilization, at that time, they had barely a hint of technology, and due to them lacking many natural resources used in technological advancement (and most likely some cultural preferences), would have never advanced technologically without outside contact, whether it had been from China or the US. Youve made it very clear you dont want real world parallels in Forgotten Realms, so dont use them to justify your points. One way or the other. Incidentally Faerun has airships and Spelljammers and any other means of travelling the world quickly, and the people of Faerun have not bothered to go exploring either, which is just as absurd as the Kara-Turans not doing so. As youve pointed out, because we do it on Earth does not mean they do it on Toril. That's why I don't play 3E or adhere to many of their canon changes/events. They are bad. If I have to spend time fiddling with a campaign setting, I don't want it to be spent "fixing" it to the point that it is usable, I want to spend that time adding to it or plotting within the framework to create whatever campaign I want to play in it. And thats your perogative, as I pointed out I do the same. The older editions of Forgotten Realms were no less rife with contradictions and inconsistencies either, however. I'm not the type to go out and buy an old car just to fix it, certainly not when the car design itself is inherently flawed and I don't see a single redeeming factor in it. And especially not when I already have an efficient, shiny car that I like absolutely everything about. Remember what you said about generalizations and sweeping statements being personal opinions earlier? It applies to you and the things you say as well. In any case this discussion is moving very far off the topic of the thread, and its clear that neither side is going to convince the other. It also appears to be dissolving into less arguement and more attacks on eachothers opinions and points, on both parties part. I think this is a good point to decide to agree to disagree and leave it alone before it degrades further. Thank you for the discussion, I have a bit more to think on than I did before this thread, and hopefully you do as well =0) EDIT: the thing next to your name on your posts says you live in Cali, so Im assuming thats correct I think I saw another persons location while reading one of your posts, I have a window open with the Character Development forum as well. I apologize for this mistake.
GothicDan 03-23-06, 05:00 PM	First off this is a very poor analogy, choosing to accept the changes a company who owns a fictional world makes to that world is in no way shape or form similar to real life abuse of anyone including children, and to imply it is is both disrespectful and insulting to the victims of such violence. I feel that cultures and ideas can be abused just as much as people, and I'd be more offended if someone slandered my character than if someone hit me. You said WotCs published material was incorrect and inaccurate, and you based that statement on the fact that some people do not like the material. I pointed out that this was not true, WotC has full creative control of thier property and what they say is in fact correct and accurate despite you or others not liking it. They do NOT have full control, as I said before, since Ed Greenwood's words are still considered canon, as per his contract. This is a fact, whether or not you prefer it, just as WotC's words are canon despite the fact that I don't like it. But I'm not arguing about the validity of the source, so much as the appropriateness of the information it puts out. This is because I think about every little detail of every situation, action, and change - that's why I'm a Physics Major with great interest in Chaos Theory and Entropy. WotC's publishments may be canon, but that doesn't make them good. The, 'You dont share my point of view so youre not worth talking to' response is pretty childish as well. I'm sorry that you did not correctly interpret my diction; at least, the phrase you summarized above does not coincide with the significance of the rhetoric I used. It's along the lines of, if you call something that is physically black "red," and I call it "black," then that's an intrinsic difference which makes proper communication impossible. I have never said I was discontent with them not publishing new Kara-Tur material, in fact I have pointed out that I am not terribly interested in Kara-Tur. If theres things I dont like I simply change it for my campaign, that doesnt change the fact that what WotC publishes is the official canon. If you are not discontent with it, then why are you promoting it in this discussion? Come to think of it, I believe he said WotC has no plans on publishing any of the non-Faerunian settings outside of the Realms themselves, which is one of the very few decisions they've made that I feel was appropriate. I'm decrying them for making 'canon' horrible discontinuities with established lore without a thought for their side effects, while you feel that their factual stance in deciding not to publish Maztica, Kara-Tur, or Zakhara lore is not proper. There's not much of a difference there. That it matters to you is your preference. WotC does not take into consideration whether Mr.Greenwood had anything to do with a region or not when they decide to detail it. Whether he worked on it or not does not matter. And I don't like that. I didn't say it was anything but my preference. However, once more, its about the reliability of the source. Just because a person lawfully owns a car and sells it to you, and has painted it and touched it up, doesn't mean that they necessarily know what's best for it internally. I have not said WotC should do anything, in fact in the statement you quoted I said, 'should they be given some consideration...' in which case 'should' is used as 'in the case that' Ill try to refrain from using the word that way in the future. Yet you do feel that they "should" not do more books on Elves, correct? I never said they should do anything. There is no hypocracy here. Negative. I agree that other Faerunian regions should be worked on first They werent given the time they should have been by TSR, If, when the supply of regions in the Realms proper is exhausted, they should decide to give these areas some 3e detailing and give them the time they give other regions theres no reason the designers cant make these areas someting unique and interesting. Theres no reason to throw them out just because they werent given the support they should have been. I stand by my opinion that the elven nations can and should be covered in the appropriate regional suppliments, and that should there be an elf book there should also be similar books for the other, under represented, races. The stuff on Evereska and with the Tree can and should be in regional books, You stated should (and not in the manner you pointed out before in a previous statement you made) 8 times on page 3 of this thread alone. (Yes, I'm wasting time because I have another hour and a half before I'm doing something more interesting than counting words.) But you ONLY discuss the elven states. This IS a personal preferance. You have barely even acknowledged that theres other regions in need of updating and, aside from Cormyr, any that have been brought up you have aggressively discounted. This isnt about whether the elven states do or do not need an update it is about you wanting one. I went over this in previous sections. It is both a personal preference and a logical conclusion on my part. Please do not insinuate otherwise, for I don't believe you're telepathic. ;) I have not 'exatled' anything anywhere in this thread, and especially not Kara-Tur. Hence me using quotes, in a manner to bring some levity into a conversation by using hyperbole. Oops. I did not say you were lying nor did I imply I knew your personal experiences any better than you did. I questioned the statement and gave my reasoning why. You said: I doubt this. From dictionary.com: doubt: 2. To tend to disbelieve; distrust: doubts politicians when they make sweeping statements. trust : To believe: I trust what you say. Saying you do not believe what I say sounds like you think I'm lying or otherwise saying something out of ignorance of my own personal experiences. Youve made it very clear you dont want real world parallels in Forgotten Realms, so dont use them to justify your points. Why not? The example I used was completely topical to this discussion. This is debate, and it's a completely appropriate debate tactic, and a pretty popular method of explanation and teaching. Since the topic is me trying to explain my position to you, and not the appropriateness of using such parallels in the Realms, then it is completely valid and would not impugne upon the integrity of my sources or methods. One way or the other. Incidentally Faerun has airships and Spelljammers and any other means of travelling the world quickly, and the people of Faerun have not bothered to go exploring either, which is just as absurd as the Kara-Turans not doing so. As youve pointed out, because we do it on Earth does not mean they do it on Toril. No; however, it is an integral part of the human psyche. It is not a culturally specific emotion or behavior. And since there are humans on Faerun, it's perfectly acceptable. If I was pointing out the cultural tendencies of a specific real world culture, it would be different, but throughout all of history, around the world, people have sought to explore and interact and learn from each other. It's a univerally human cause-and-effect procedure, not something culturally specific. And thats your perogative, as I pointed out I do the same. The older editions of Forgotten Realms were no less rife with contradictions and inconsistencies either, however. I beg to differ. They were there, yes, but not so glaringly obvious. And more important, those contradictions and/or inconsistencies were outright errors. What WotC feels like it is doing is perfectly alright. I forgive someone if they accidentally step on my toe, but I don't do it if they do it on purpose. Remember what you said about generalizations and sweeping statements being personal opinions earlier? It applies to you and the things you say as well. Hence me using the singular first person. In any case this discussion is moving very far off the topic of the thread, and its clear that neither side is going to convince the other. It also appears to be dissolving into less arguement and more attacks on eachothers opinions and points, on both parties part. I think this is a good point to decide to agree to disagree and leave it alone before it degrades further. Since I just got down to this statement, I'll make this last post and agree. ;) Thank you for the discussion, I have a bit more to think on than I did before this thread, and hopefully you do as well =0) I don't know. I'm weird in the fact that I've kind of logic'ed most things about life out already, due to the innate malleability of my paradigms being expansive enough to pretty much cover everything. You kind of need to do that when you study Physics. It was indeed fun, however. ;) I do look forward to any future debates.
Lord Karsus 03-23-06, 11:02 PM	-What about poor Osse. All they have are dizheiri, Gunggari and that's about it. In short, they have nothing...
cgarsmokr 03-24-06, 01:39 AM	I feel this thread has gotten waaaay off course. So I'll try to clarify where I was coming fromwhen I began this thread. First of all, I feel the Forgotten Realms is the best D&D world created thus far. One of the reasons why I feel this way is the depth of detail (regions especially) that it contains. Tsr has, in past editions chosen to put Kara-Tur, Maztica and Zhakara on Toril. Some like it, some don't. To each his own. I happen to like it. When I look at a map of Toril I see numerous continents that haven't been detailed and my curiosity is aroused as to what is there. I guess I could make stuff up and put it on these lands myself, but I don't want to (shrugs). I would like to see the writers of the Realms or Toril or whatever do it. Will they? Probably not, but I'd still like to see it. As to the continent that contains Faerun and Kara-Tur etc., Realmsian cultures and countries have contact with these far off places. Such as Durpari traders trading with Zhakara as mentioned in The Shining South. Or Thesk having a Shou town in one of it's cities in The Unapproachable East not to mention the trade along the Golden Way from Kara-Tur to Faerun. Also, New Amn in Maztica. The point I'm trying to make is WoTC has mentioned these lands in many of the Realms supplements and I would like to see them in detail in the future Just for curiosity sake. As a side note, I mentioned wanting to see Anchrome (the continent just north of Maztica) detailed as well but no one mentioned wanting to see it. I'm curious to know if the reason for this is because the thread took a different road or if you guys just aren't interested in it? I look forward to your thoughts.
Dark Wizard 03-24-06, 03:04 AM	My apologies to you for my part in taking this thread off course. As you can see, many here want to eventually see an update on Kara-Tur, Zakhara et al. Exactly how that should be handled was what threw us off for a while. All of those other continents were made during the TSR days when they had a policy of making FR have a little something for everyone, their 2e flagship everything goes setting, much like Eberron is 3e's posterchild. All of them were short lived in that they were just about all one shot settings, a major sourcebook or box set and maybe a few related modules adventures. One cannot deny that they at least filled in areas of Forgotten Realms with something. While we as fans and consumers are not privy to TSR/WotC's sales statistics, it is thought that the sales for these products were not up to par with the rest of the Forgotten Realms material set in Faerun proper. The decision was then made to drop further support for them. When WotC tried their hand at another Oriental Adventures book, they went with Rokugan. That was meet with lukewarm reception. Kara-Tur fans wanted their setting updated and made the exemplar eastern setting. Maybe fans of Rokugan wanted (and have since returned to) the d10 system. I think the presence of Kara-Tur et al. and the way they were subsequently treated was a terrible move. They created a fan base and left it as such with nothing after their drop point, similar to the fans of Planescape, Ravenloft, Dark Sun, Spelljammer, etc. Unfortunately, for fans of Kara-Tur et al. there is a bit of added insult to injury, since Faerun is still going strong, the fans of Kara-Tur et al. have to see a piece of the setting continually supported with new material, elaborated details, novels, etc. Meanwhile Kara-Tur et al. are stuck in the state they have been since they were introduced. Most of the other full campaign settings at least had a few years worth of material to work with. And if there is so little perceived interest in Kara-Tur et al. according to WotC, then they are even less likely to consider anything on Anchorome. It's so bad that in order to fit things in the 160 pages of the supplements, they can't even fit all of the information on Faerun into them that the designers wanted to fit in, let alone a line on Kara-Tur et al. and certainly less importance is placed on unknown lands like Anchorome. It is good to see some people interested in Kara-Tur et al. I still love that the name Kara-Tur seems to be drawn from the same source and derivation pattern as the eastern area of Robert E. Howard's Hyperborean Age.
Ranger REG 03-24-06, 04:12 AM	You're right. There is a resentment for the perceived lack of treatment of Kara-Tur and the rest of Toril. Sure, as much as I want to agree with the majority here (assuming they are of European lineage), I still want them to do Kara-Tur proper and sometime before I reach 40 (I'm 36 now). As much as I like Ed Greenwood for creating Forgotten Realms, I am NOT OFFENDED by the new additions by TSR, who did bought FR from Ed fair and square. FWIW, at least they don't have a "Brannon Braga" screwing up the FR WORLD.
Flecha 03-24-06, 08:41 AM	As much as I like Ed Greenwood for creating Forgotten Realms, I am NOT OFFENDED by the new additions by TSR, who did bought FR from Ed fair and square. FWIW, at least they don't have a "Brannon Braga" screwing up the FR WORLD. :heehee That Brannon Braga joke was funny! Fortunately roleplaying games are done for a smaller audience than genre tv, and for a more critic audience, too (I'm not talking against trekies, I've been one since 13. But we haven't done much to protest, like NOT watching the Trek shows, mind you). So we can expect more (overall) quality in rpg products. BTW, about the whole Greenwood properties theme, in case it hasn't been mentioned, I remember one of the (last?) interviews the Dragon magazine did to him, he stated that one of the clauses of the contract where he sells FR lets him revise ANYTHING about FR before it's publishing. Very honestly, though, he explains that he has never used it, since he wants to give others full creative freedom, he likes what they write or not. I like Greenwood, the buddy is one of my heroes; at his age I want to be just like him. Writing lots of fantasy, and having a long beard like Ganda... er... Elminster. :D
Ranger REG 03-24-06, 06:10 PM	Very honestly, though, he explains that he has never used it, since he wants to give others full creative freedom, he likes what they write or not. "Full creative freedom." Nice little catchphrase. Unfortunately for some fans, they believe it should be tagged with "...as long it is Realmsian." :rolleye2:
dan1234 03-25-06, 02:23 AM	We need a Calimshan source book and a Dale land source book before any other region... Well I think so, :cookie:
GothicDan 03-25-06, 08:23 AM	Ranger: Sure, as much as I want to agree with the majority here (assuming they are of European lineage), I still want them to do Kara-Tur proper and sometime before I reach 40 (I'm 36 now). This line confuses me. What does one's heritage have to do with you wanting to agree with them? As much as I like Ed Greenwood for creating Forgotten Realms, I am NOT OFFENDED by the new additions by TSR, who did bought FR from Ed fair and square. FWIW, at least they don't have a "Brannon Braga" screwing up the FR WORLD. Level of quality is subjective. ;) "Full creative freedom." Nice little catchphrase. Unfortunately for some fans, they believe it should be tagged with "...as long it is Realmsian." I thought that was obvious. When I'm listening to my Symphonic Metal CD, I don't expect nor do I want to suddenly hear some random country music in the middle of one of the songs, no matter how good the country music may be. (I almost used 'rap' then realized I would feel dirty if I inferred that rap is a form of music.)
GothicDan 03-25-06, 08:26 AM	cgarsmokr: I'm a little confused. Didn't you want us to discuss the plausability of WotC updating various parts of the world, and what we thought about it? Very often, when people feel strongly about things, there are discussions rather than one-shot statements. :) I think that Dark Wizard surmised my thoughts on Anachrome, too.
Ranger REG 03-25-06, 06:30 PM	When I'm listening to my Symphonic Metal CD, I don't expect nor do I want to suddenly hear some random country music in the middle of one of the songs, no matter how good the country music may be. You mean to tell me that Kara-Tur is the "in appropriate country music" in the middle of your Realmsian symphony? I think of Kara-Tur as one CD album in my whole collection of CD of various music, be it pop, R&B, country, J-pop, Hawaiian tradition, Hawaiian contemporary, latin, world music, etc. How you upload it into your iPoop in whatever order of your playlist is up to you.
Purple Dragon Knight 03-25-06, 06:56 PM	I wish Kara-Tur would have never been created.
Chancer 03-25-06, 10:34 PM	I think a Kara-tur sourcebook would be a great idea. They should do a sourcebook like Old Empires. A sourcebook that covers the Hordelands, Kara-Tur, Zakarra, Maztica and that continent to the north of Maztica. It would help expand the scope of the realms and provide a ton of info on lands totally not covered in the FRCS. With the current trend of Wizards of the Coast cramming the books full of game materials (races, feats, prestige classes) it would be ripe with ways to intergrate and create interesting NPC's or PC's. You could actually make a Kara-Turan bounty hunter.
cgarsmokr 03-26-06, 01:08 AM	We need a Calimshan source book and a Dale land source book before any other region... Well I think so, :cookie: I'd like to see both of regions soon.
Purple Dragon Knight 03-26-06, 01:27 AM	I'd like to see both of regions soon.Likewise. In my honest opinion, a book on Kara-Tur, Maztica and Zakhara would be a complete disaster. The third edition Realms have steered well away from these "faraway" lands and I think the trend should continue. I believe that the 'official' stance of the FR design team was to focus on Faerūn and leave the other continents alone, and so far this reader finds that this has worked wonderfully. For some reason, Faerūn has the correct "Realmsian" feel about it. I am not aware if the extraneous continents surrounding Faerūn were created by Mister Greenwood, but I sure don't get that impression. Samuraļs? Spanish Conquistadors? Aladdin, Ali-Baba and who knows who? now come on!!! this is NOT what the Realms are all about. I almost feel like they should not have been created firsthand, but they have, so I at least find comfort in the fact that there are NO plans to talk about them some more (read: publish more stuff related to them). These lands should be left alone so as to perpetuate the mystery about them, and make your big, powerful and bored high level characters wonder about what's on the other side of those hills... aside from that, if you absolutely feel like there should be a book on them, then I'll be so bold as to say that you have not fully explored what the currently published material has to offer. If you want ninjas, set your campaign in Thesk. Don't design three more pantheons from three different lands that I will not use. :( :(
Chancer 03-26-06, 10:49 AM	Well if you're not going to use it don't buy it. I would like a gazetteer at the least. It would be nice to have maps of these places. When ever my characters go far afield I have to turn to my old 2e Player's Guide to the Forgotten Realms for a map and my copy of Once Around the Realms for some information. I would be nice to have some maps and twenty pages or so of text that tells us what the capitos are and what has happened since the last published time lines.
cgarsmokr 03-26-06, 04:57 PM	Likewise. In my honest opinion, a book on Kara-Tur, Maztica and Zakhara would be a complete disaster. The third edition Realms have steered well away from these "faraway" lands and I think the trend should continue. I believe that the 'official' stance of the FR design team was to focus on Faerūn and leave the other continents alone, and so far this reader finds that this has worked wonderfully. For some reason, Faerūn has the correct "Realmsian" feel about it. I am not aware if the extraneous continents surrounding Faerūn were created by Mister Greenwood, but I sure don't get that impression. Samuraļs? Spanish Conquistadors? Aladdin, Ali-Baba and who knows who? now come on!!! this is NOT what the Realms are all about. I almost feel like they should not have been created firsthand, but they have, so I at least find comfort in the fact that there are NO plans to talk about them some more (read: publish more stuff related to them). These lands should be left alone so as to perpetuate the mystery about them, and make your big, powerful and bored high level characters wonder about what's on the other side of those hills... aside from that, if you absolutely feel like there should be a book on them, then I'll be so bold as to say that you have not fully explored what the currently published material has to offer. If you want ninjas, set your campaign in Thesk. Don't design three more pantheons from three different lands that I will not use. :( :( Thanks for your thoughts and opinions. I appreciate them. First off, I mentioned in an earlier post that some 3rd ED. Realms products have mentioned Shou Lung, Maztica and Zhakara so they haven't steered away from them at all. If they wanted to truly stay away from them then they (the writers) shouldn't have made no mention of them at all in 3 or 3.5. I get the feeling you and I would agree on that part LOL. But alas, they have so I say don't tease those of us who want to see these products. Give us the goods. Secondly, I'm not sure if Ed Greenwood created the other continents (Maztica was Doug Niles) but IMO thats not all that important. I think the fantastic world that Ed created was enhanced by other designers such as Doug Niles (Maztica, Moonshaes), David "Zeb" Cook (The Horde), Jeff Grubb and Andrea Hayday (Zhakara) and many others. While I didn't like everything about these other lands I did like that someone made the decision to fill in some of the places beyond the edges off the map. One more thing. What exactly are the Realms "all about" anyway, and who decides what they're about?
cgarsmokr 03-26-06, 05:00 PM	Well if you're not going to use it don't buy it. I would like a gazetteer at the least. It would be nice to have maps of these places. When ever my characters go far afield I have to turn to my old 2e Player's Guide to the Forgotten Realms for a map and my copy of Once Around the Realms for some information. I would be nice to have some maps and twenty pages or so of text that tells us what the capitos are and what has happened since the last published time lines. Yeah something like that. I don't need Ninjas and stuff, just some geography, history, current goings on, places of adventures, mysteries.
cgarsmokr 03-26-06, 05:05 PM	[QUOTE=Chancer]Well if you're not going to use it don't buy it. Amen.
GothicDan 03-26-06, 06:21 PM	You mean to tell me that Kara-Tur is the "in appropriate country music" in the middle of your Realmsian symphony? I think of Kara-Tur as one CD album in my whole collection of CD of various music, be it pop, R&B, country, J-pop, Hawaiian tradition, Hawaiian contemporary, latin, world music, etc. How you upload it into your iPoop in whatever order of your playlist is up to you. I only listen (or 99% mostly) to symphonic metal. That being said, to cgarsmokr: It's not a matter of us buying it. It's a matter of the fact that every consumer has a right to express his or her opinions about what he or she wants, which is exactly what you're doing as well. If too many people just "don't buy it," WotC will never make it, and it would have just been a waste of time and resources. We have every right to express our opinion about the sourcebook we'd like to see, considering they only come out every few months, and a single Kara-Tur sourcebook would heavily delay, for months, a sourcebook about the Realms, which is what FR is supposed to be all about.
Ranger REG 03-26-06, 07:30 PM	We have every right to express our opinion about the sourcebook we'd like to see, considering they only come out every few months, and a single Kara-Tur sourcebook would heavily delay, for months, a sourcebook about the Realms, which is what FR is supposed to be all about. Oh, so now you're saying you don't want WotC to make Kara-Tur because it will delay a product that you want. NOW you know how I feel about the rest of the Faerun-specific products they've been rolling out lately. Ergo, no sympathy from me, brah. Take your medicine like I did.
cgarsmokr 03-26-06, 08:01 PM	To GothicDan: It most certainly is a matter of you not buying it if you don't like it. As for you expressing your opinion just like me: Yes you are- and your point is...
Purple Dragon Knight 03-26-06, 08:04 PM	Oh, so now you're saying you don't want WotC to make Kara-Tur because it will delay a product that you want. NOW you know how I feel about the rest of the Faerun-specific products they've been rolling out lately. Ergo, no sympathy from me, brah. Take your medicine like I did.I don't think you understood what Gothic meant, Ranger REG... he's not trying to throw fuel on the fire or take part of a peas-sing contest here: he's just trying to make some of you understand that this kind of book will not happen in the first place. He may have expressed himself poorly in his last post (i.e. he did not even have to make the argument that a Kara-Tur book would delay the production of another book, because a Kara-Tur book will not happen... with the current FR design team at the very least); what he should have drawn upon was the posts made by several FR designers so far that have told us that a book of the surrounding not-mattering lands is "not in the works" or "not planned at this time." (i.e. that's author/designer code for "not on my watch, buddy!") As an aside, I would like to ask the supporter of a "Kara-Maz-Zak" book why they would need such a book that bad, and why they feel the current supplements are: 1) not sufficient for their player or DM enjoyment of the campaign; and 2) inferior in content to what a "Kara-Maz-Zak" book would offer. Not trying to pick a fight guys: just trying to understand some of my fellow Realms addicts. We shouldn't fight about this: we should rejoice in the fact that we all like the same setting, and understand our preferences rather than shut each others down!
GothicDan 03-26-06, 09:42 PM	Oh, so now you're saying you don't want WotC to make Kara-Tur because it will delay a product that you want. NOW you know how I feel about the rest of the Faerun-specific products they've been rolling out lately. Ergo, no sympathy from me, brah. Take your medicine like I did. I don't know why you feel that. Them making Faerun-specific products isn't DELAYING anything, since they're never going to make it in the first place. FR is about FAERUN. You don't see me demanding Planescape products here, do you? Planescape was tied into Faerun at least as much, if not more, as Kara-Tur and the like. But FR is about Faerun. I don't care what product about Faerun they make instead of a Kara-Tur one, even if it's about a group or area that I hate - even if it's (again) about the Drow. As long as it's about Faerun, that's still preferrable for me. To GothicDan: It most certainly is a matter of you not buying it if you don't like it. As for you expressing your opinion just like me: Yes you are- and your point is... I'm sorry, but are you seeking to assert you know the reasoning behind my emotions or thoughts? The last time I checked, the human race was not telepathic. :) If the US is desperately low on food resources, and people are starving, wouldn't you be a little upset if the government decided to make a bunch of weaponry instead of helping to provide food for its citizens? That's what I'm getting at here. FR is about Faerun; people who play the FR setting are typically those people not terribly interested in getting information in worlds that are literal carbon-copies of real like cultures. WotC already has an Asian-inspired campaign setting which is leagues better than Kara-Tur ever was - Rokugan. To use your own line of logic (that I just "shouldn't buy it") how about YOU "buy it."
Dark Wizard 03-26-06, 11:04 PM	As an aside, I would like to ask the supporter of a "Kara-Maz-Zak" book why they would need such a book that bad, and why they feel the current supplements are: 1) not sufficient for their player or DM enjoyment of the campaign; and 2) inferior in content to what a "Kara-Maz-Zak" book would offer. My reasons for wanting a Kara-Tur book is not so much "1) Insufficient" as it is an opposite of "2) Superior." (I think Zakhara is secondary to Kara-Tur in importance, and I don't like Maztica's premise, reasons stated several times above.) It is not that Faerun is inferior to Kara-Tur, it is that Kara-Tur is inferior to Faerun due to the lack of support. I think that if done right, it can be a excellent expansion subject for Forgotten Realms in the modern 3e era. I think that Kara-Tur should be treated no differently than a region of Faerun, albeit understandably a very large region. I am not saying that every region within Kara-Tur should be made into its own sourcebook, just something along the lines of the FRCS, a good current overview for the continent that can provide enough information and depth for unlimited play for years. Kara-Tur should not be a Forgotten Realms property that competes with Faerun, but rather something that complements and actively enriches it. As for why I am a staunch supporter of Kara-Tur but yet also an advocate for significant changes to the design direction for Kara-Tur: If you look at Faerun it takes the standard rules and ideas presented in D&D (PHB, DMG, MM, etc.) and changes and adds to them, making them its own. Silver/Moon elves in FR are very different from grey elves, the opposite in fact, more like high elves, but even then it is not a perfect match. FR took generic epic magic and added setting distinct High Magic Mythals, Netherese Mythallars, Imaskari planar and world enchantments, etc. I want to see the same for Kara-Tur, take the rules and traditions of D&D and the Oriental Adventures supplement and make them its own. However, Kara-Tur is not even given a chance to be anything, let alone a unique take on Oriental fantasy archetypes. I just returned from I-CON, a large (and long running, I-CON 25) sci-fi/fantasy/horror (Movie/TV/Comics/Anime) convention. Many of the most popular items and events were based on Oriental/East Asian fantasy. Some of you may hold an irrational dislike of any thing labeled anime or manga, but the popularity of such mediums shows there is a healthy appetite for the story elements and style of writers from Asian cultures (use of oriental character and plot archetypes). Not to worry, the line for Terry Brooks (Sword of Shannara) autographs was huge. Fans of Kevin Sorbo (Hercules) and Marc Singer (Beastmaster) came out in force. There remained an abundance of wizards and barbarian warriors from typical Tolkienesque high fantasy or the sword and sorcery of the Conan tradition. The professional art gallery (not anime style) was mostly knights and dragons, but a good portion was sumo wrestlers done in the Yamato-e style, a Bruce Lee portrait, and a few of wuxia style warriors. [Side note: A few William O'Connor originals, way out of my price range. Even the large print of the Mysteries of the Moonsea cover art was out of my price range. I picked up too many graphic novels. :( But also City of Splendors: Waterdeep. :) ] Everyone was coexisting and taking in all things fantastic. That is how I think Faerun and Kara-Tur should be. The Forgotten Realms as the main traditional fantasy setting for D&D without a proper oriental style area like Kara-Tur would be like a major convention without the all the anime, manga or oriental influences, which means a lot is being missed. (This would be a general multi-genre convention, not a convention geared specifically towards say only video games or comics. Though some of you can make the claim that FR is like a genre specific (European inspired, epic, heroic fantasy) convention, but it is not.)
Iakhovas 03-26-06, 11:10 PM	Sign me up. I'm a fan of the Forgotten Realms setting in its entirety. I would love for WOTC to come out with a new sourcebook updating Kara- Tur,Maztica, Hordelands, and Zhakara. Maybe even throwing me a bone and detailing Anchrome to the north of Maztica. I'd be interested to know if any of you guys and gals agree.
cgarsmokr 03-27-06, 12:52 AM	As an aside, I would like to ask the supporter of a "Kara-Maz-Zak" book why they would need such a book that bad, and why they feel the current supplements are: 1) not sufficient for their player or DM enjoyment of the campaign; and 2) inferior in content to what a "Kara-Maz-Zak" book would offer. "Need" doesn't apply to me Purple Dragon Knight, I simply want to see whats been going on in the neighborhood lately. I own all of the other supplements and enjoyed most of them. One of my earlier posts stated that I like the history, culture, etc. of these regions not necessarily ninjas and whatnot. The genie has been let out of the bottle so to speak when "Kara-Maz-Zak (I like that by the way) were written I just want an update. Maybe Dragon could do it in some of their articles but I'd still prefer a sourcebook. Just my opinion. And I heartily agree that we shouldn't fight about this. I love Toril, not just Faerun, but Toril. I have another thought that could I'd like some opinions on. It seems to me that many if not all of those who dislike "Kara-Maz-Zak ( I still like that by the way) object to the cultural similarities of these areas to their counterparts on Earth. What if they were redone for 3rd Ed. but were more unique. Woulld that make them more palatable? Would you buy them?
Lord Karsus 03-27-06, 01:02 AM	I have another thought that could I'd like some opinions on. It seems to me that many if not all of those who dislike "Kara-Maz-Zak ( I still like that by the way) object to the cultural similarities of these areas to their counterparts on Earth. What if they were redone for 3rd Ed. but were more unique. Woulld that make them more palatable? Would you buy them? -You can't just simply recreate a different history of Kara-Tur, Maztica and Zakhara. Well, technically, WotC could, but they'd be throwing out all of the existing lore for the three continents. And, as geeks, we all really don't like massive retcons like that. -Sure, some details could be created to seperate the three from their actual counterparts. But, this only goes so far. Kara-Tur will still be blatently modeled after South East Asia, Maztica will still be blatently modeled after Central/South America and Zakhara will still be blantently modeled after the Middle East.
Purple Dragon Knight 03-27-06, 01:14 AM	The genie has been let out of the bottle so to speak when "Kara-Maz-Zak (I like that by the way) Oh krrap... I hope I didn't start something against my will here... darn. :embarrass I have another thought that could I'd like some opinions on. It seems to me that many if not all of those who dislike "Kara-Maz-Zak ( I still like that by the way) object to the cultural similarities of these areas to their counterparts on Earth. What if they were redone for 3rd Ed. but were more unique. Woulld that make them more palatable? Would you buy them?You see, as you said, the genie has been let out of the bottle... just like Spelljammers, some of these genies were on a really hard acid trip, and could only fit in in the weird fluorescent clothing shade of the 80's, where everyone was mixed up due to artists such as Michael Jackson and Boy George putting out records and ACTUALLY making money, while other staunch warrior-bard-geniuses such as Rush (they're Canadian by the way, and making me proud) were fighting vigorously to counterbalance (i.e. were they acting as 'counterparts'? get it? :D ) the decay brought forward by "Jackson-George" and creating purely divine music in the process, a fact that added to our confusion (i.e. for how could such gaaads exist and not be more popular than the pre-BritneySpears Jackson-George infernal apathy generator?)
Lord Karsus 03-27-06, 01:18 AM	Oh krrap... I hope I didn't start something against my will here... darn. :embarrass You see, as you said, the genie has been let out of the bottle... just like Spelljammers, some of these genies were on a really hard acid trip, and could only fit in in the weird fluorescent clothing shade of the 80's, where everyone was mixed up due to artists such as Michael Jackson and Boy George putting out records and ACTUALLY making money, while other staunch warrior-bard-geniuses such as Rush (they're Canadian by the way, and making me proud) were fighting vigorously to counterbalance (i.e. were they acting as 'counterparts'? get it? :D ) the decay brought forward by "Jackson-George" and creating purely divine music in the process, a fact that added to our confusion (i.e. for how could such gaaads exist and not be more popular than the pre-BritneySpears Jackson-George infernal apathy generator?) -Well, that sure is an interesting way to look at things... :P
cgarsmokr 03-27-06, 01:23 AM	I don't know why you feel that. Them making Faerun-specific products isn't DELAYING anything, since they're never going to make it in the first place. FR is about FAERUN. You don't see me demanding Planescape products here, do you? Planescape was tied into Faerun at least as much, if not more, as Kara-Tur and the like. But FR is about Faerun. I don't care what product about Faerun they make instead of a Kara-Tur one, even if it's about a group or area that I hate - even if it's (again) about the Drow. As long as it's about Faerun, that's still preferrable for me. I'm sorry, but are you seeking to assert you know the reasoning behind my emotions or thoughts? The last time I checked, the human race was not telepathic. :) If the US is desperately low on food resources, and people are starving, wouldn't you be a little upset if the government decided to make a bunch of weaponry instead of helping to provide food for its citizens? That's what I'm getting at here. FR is about Faerun; people who play the FR setting are typically those people not terribly interested in getting information in worlds that are literal carbon-copies of real cultures. WotC already has an Asian-inspired campaign setting which is leagues better than Kara-Tur ever was - Rokugan. To use your own line of logic (that I just "shouldn't buy it") how about YOU "buy it." It isn't my intention to assert your reasoning behind your emotions or thoughts. To be frank, I have no idea what your reasoning is most of the time but I try to roll with it anyway. ;) The last time I checked, the human race was not telepathic. :) True, so how could you assert: that people who play the FR setting are typically those people not terribly interested in getting information in worlds that are literal carbon-copies of real cultures. Unless you were telepathic. Me thinks you assume too much. From what I've read from these posts those of us who want to see Kara-Maz-Zak are holding our own. Another point of contention I have is:FR is about Faerun; I couldn't disagree more. FR is about Toril. IMO Peace to you Oh yeah, I almost forgot. I have all the Rokugan stuff. I like Kara-Tur because it's connected to the world of Toril (which I love) with connections to Faerun.
cgarsmokr 03-27-06, 01:34 AM	Oh krrap... I hope I didn't start something against my will here... darn. :embarrass You see, as you said, the genie has been let out of the bottle... just like Spelljammers, some of these genies were on a really hard acid trip, and could only fit in in the weird fluorescent clothing shade of the 80's, where everyone was mixed up due to artists such as Michael Jackson and Boy George putting out records and ACTUALLY making money, while other staunch warrior-bard-geniuses such as Rush (they're Canadian by the way, and making me proud) were fighting vigorously to counterbalance (i.e. were they acting as 'counterparts'? get it? :D ) the decay brought forward by "Jackson-George" and creating purely divine music in the process, a fact that added to our confusion (i.e. for how could such gaaads exist and not be more popular than the pre-BritneySpears Jackson-George infernal apathy generator?) Hey! I grew up in the 80's and I liked Spelljammer. Am I weird? :P
Purple Dragon Knight 03-27-06, 11:45 AM	Hey! I grew up in the 80's and I liked Spelljammer. Am I weird? :PDo you really want an answer on this? :D
cgarsmokr 03-27-06, 12:19 PM	Do you really want an answer on this? :D Nope ;)
Petrankov 03-27-06, 02:06 PM	Spelljammer was actually pretty good I thought. Never played Kara-Tur, seems interesting enough but I would rather see a sourcebook on Impultir or an area that has not been covered yet. The Dalelands have been done to death and I know Cormyr has had upheaval but I do not want to see 30 pages of 2nd edition material with a 3 page 3.5 edition update. Know what I mean? :noway:
Ranger REG 03-27-06, 08:17 PM	I wish Kara-Tur would have never been created. Hey, you can stay with Faerun without leaving it, alright. Not like I'm forcing you to go outside your territory to explore. :devil:
GothicDan 03-27-06, 09:26 PM	The last time I checked, the human race was not telepathic. True, so how could you assert: that people who play the FR setting are typically those people not terribly interested in getting information in worlds that are literal carbon-copies of real cultures. Unless you were telepathic. Me thinks you assume too much. From what I've read from these posts those of us who want to see Kara-Maz-Zak are holding our own. In a formal debate, you would have been shot down by now, but that's neither here nor there. There's nothing wrong with assuming provided doing so does not leave one open to possibly negative effects that one did not see coming. Every time I take a step I assume my foot's going to hit the ground, and that my body will move just right, etc. Fear of making assumptions leads to complete and utter stasis. Another point of contention I have is:FR is about Faerun; I couldn't disagree more. FR is about Toril. IMO Peace to you The Forgotten Realms are Faerun, by definition. That's their name. I think that's a big enough flashing light to indicate what they're supposed to be about. Oh yeah, I almost forgot. I have all the Rokugan stuff. I like Kara-Tur because it's connected to the world of Toril (which I love) with connections to Faerun. It's hardly connected to FR at all.
Ranger REG 03-28-06, 02:15 AM	It's hardly connected to FR at all. What da HELL does THAT mean? Oh BTW, what is this "Realmsian" you and/or others of your kind speak of? :thinks:
Lord Karsus 03-28-06, 02:21 AM	What da HELL does THAT mean? Oh BTW, what is this "Realmsian" you and/or others of your kind speak of? :thinks: -I think he was saying that the cultural similarities between the nations/ city-states of Faerūn and the nations of Kara-Tur have little to nothing to do with each other. Kara-Tur was kinda just added on, when TSR needed a home for this new oriental setting. -Realmsian: Having to do with the Forgotten Realms (I thought that sounded pretty self-explanitory)
GothicDan 03-28-06, 11:12 AM	What da HELL does THAT mean? I'm sorry. Would referencing www.dictionary.com help you in interpretation? I know sometimes my points can be ambiguous, but I sincerely felt that my above statement was fairly clearly in diction. Oh BTW, what is this "Realmsian" you and/or others of your kind speak of? Lord Karsus defined it pretty well. Ed Greenwood, for example, recently stated that the Shadow Weave has always fit "awkwardly" into the Realms. This is something that is not Realmsian. And, for those who feel that Ed Greenwood's word isn't good enough in 3E, here's a bit of one of Rich's latest replies on the Ask the Designer thread: "But the Earth history analogy really shouldn't be taken too far. It's a fantastic world, and there should be many things in Faerun that don't have easy Earth analogues." Thus, real-world Earth analogies are not Realmsian.
GungHo 03-28-06, 02:49 PM	Ed Greenwood, for example, recently stated that the Shadow Weave has always fit "awkwardly" into the Realms. This is something that is not Realmsian. I wonder... is it the Shadow Weave, its implementation, or its presentation that is awkward? In my eyes, it just seems like a bizzare thing to suddenly appear, seemingly out of nowhere, along with the Shade city. (This is probably why in my campaigns, Selune smote it with a Tear [i.e. asteroid] soon after its appearance.) I mean, I bought the Shadow Magic from the Harper books and the Maulagrym, but this is a different sort of thing that literally seems to have "ta-da"ed itself onto the scene. Then again, I accepted the sudden, without any sexy foreplay, reappearance of Bane with little more than a "ah, he's around again, guess the players are in for a surprise." "But the Earth history analogy really shouldn't be taken too far. It's a fantastic world, and there should be many things in Faerun that don't have easy Earth analogues." Thus, real-world Earth analogies are not Realmsian. True, but please don't run too far with that ball and make Ed's statement an absolute statement, when it was not. Some analogies can be made... though it's arguably at the conceptual... until you start going to Mulhorand's Stargate thingy, and then it becomes a game of "do you just ignore the 800lb gorilla sitting in the middle of the room or not." Otherwise, I agree. No need for the Ottomans to take over Calimshan or for Cormyr to dissolve into a War of the Roses.
Ranger REG 03-29-06, 03:54 AM	I'm sorry. Would referencing www.dictionary.com help you in interpretation? I know sometimes my points can be ambiguous, No offense to WotC R&D Group, but you'd fit right in with them writers and editors. :D And, for those who feel that Ed Greenwood's word isn't good enough in 3E, here's a bit of one of Rich's latest replies on the Ask the Designer thread: "But the Earth history analogy really shouldn't be taken too far. It's a fantastic world, and there should be many things in Faerun that don't have easy Earth analogues." Thus, real-world Earth analogies are not Realmsian. First of all, the quote by Baker is speaking for Faerun, not the entire Forgotten Realms world. Definitely not for Kara-Tur. As for taking it too far, what with the history of the Realm (printed in novels) is borrowed heavily from our own Earth history (with some creative licensing to include magic elements), I find it endearing. It's how any DM would use cultural and historical references and turn it into a tabletop adventure scenario. It also re-iterated -- either it is Ed's words or Jeff's -- that our own Earth and Abeir-Toril was once connected by a series of gates. I'm sorry if you're a Faerun-only fan, but don't dissmiss the Kara-Turan-, Maztican-, Hordelanders- and Zakharan-inclusive Forgotten Realms fans.
Bocklin 03-29-06, 10:57 AM	I feel like jumping in the mud and come play with my fellow gamers... Hi all, I think that the problem many have with Maz-Kar-Zak is that these lands (as far as I can tell) constitute a late and quite artificial addition to the Forgotten Realms. Even if one likes these, he has to admit that they feel a bit out of place next to Faerūn (i.e. not Realmsian). To me, it feels like the old R&D team wanted to have an "Arabian Night" setting, an "Inca" one, then a "Far East" one and did not know how to go about inserting these in the wide array of existing D&D settings. Maybe it seemed like a good idea back then and there was a niche for D&D players that wanted to play in an medieval Arab setting or play ninjas. Instead of creating a new world for this (or have a new world made up of all these earth-like settings), they simply dropped it on Toril and tried to use the traction and popularity of the FR to get people to buy their earth-inspired new settings. All of the above being said as an attempt to express why I have mixed feelings about Maz-Kar-Zak and know that I would never buy a book on them. I would even go out of my way to say that not only I would not buy the book, but sincerely hope that they do not produce one, ever again. Sorry guys, but there are just too few FR books produced every year and I would be very disappointed (to say the least) to see that one of these would be dedicated to an artifical (and in-my-opinion not-so-good) side-show of Toril. And let's not forget: TSR financial difficulties also came from having invested too much on poorly selling books (e.g. the Horde thing, if I am not wrong). Bocklin
GothicDan 03-29-06, 08:47 PM	No offense to WotC R&D Group, but you'd fit right in with them writers and editors. How so? First of all, the quote by Baker is speaking for Faerun, not the entire Forgotten Realms world. Definitely not for Kara-Tur. He said world, not continent. As for taking it too far, what with the history of the Realm (printed in novels) is borrowed heavily from our own Earth history (with some creative licensing to include magic elements), I find it endearing. I'm still waiting to see these specific cultural examples. Not general archetypes that could arise in any culture at any time, but specific ones that you can point a finger at and say, "this is definitely from X culture." It's how any DM would use cultural and historical references and turn it into a tabletop adventure scenario. It also re-iterated -- either it is Ed's words or Jeff's -- that our own Earth and Abeir-Toril was once connected by a series of gates. Yet Faerun still has a distinct culture all its own, without too much heavy emphasis from Earth's cultures. This makes sense, because for there to be significant cultural influence, the cultures have to be in contact in large numbers, regularly, for an extended period of time. A few people dropping into a portal every few years doesn't really count. I'm sorry if you're a Faerun-only fan, but don't dissmiss the Kara-Turan-, Maztican-, Hordelanders- and Zakharan-inclusive Forgotten Realms fans. If I feel that my reasons for doing so are justified, I shall certainly do this. There's no higher power other than ourselves who is going to make our decisions and opinions for us; that's our responsibility.
ydirbut 03-29-06, 11:57 PM	If the US is desperately low on food resources, and people are starving, wouldn't you be a little upset if the government decided to make a bunch of weaponry instead of helping to provide food for its citizens? That's what I'm getting at here. FR is about Faerun; people who play the FR setting are typically those people not terribly interested in getting information in worlds that are literal carbon-copies of real like cultures. I guess we won't be seeing any nation-based FR sourcebooks then. ;) I keed I keed "But the Earth history analogy really shouldn't be taken too far. It's a fantastic world, and there should be many things in Faerun that don't have easy Earth analogues." Thus, real-world Earth analogies are not Realmsian. Uhhh, the vast majority of FR is based off of real-world earth analogs And we just had a book on the Silver Marches. I do not think Obould is considered enough of a threat to the Marches to actually require a whole new book all over again, especially because, for the most part, there hasn't been any direct affect on the region (that I know of, correct me if I'm wrong) besides Mithral Hall. Publishing a new book that was updated only a few years ago, just to speculate about what might happen, if Obould does this or that, would be really, really unproductive, since it's just that - speculation. Evereska and Evermeet were attacked, the High Magi and the Towers of the Sun and the Moon were destroyed - these things already happened, and would thus be having effects, right now or in the near future, on the Elven people. If Obould had launched a large-scale attack on multiple Dwarven strongholds already, I would at least consider the idea - but has he? I don't care what happened in the past. I care what is going to happen in the future. I don't want a history book, I want a game book that I can use for adventure ideas. - Queen Amlaruil has always had red-gold hair (referenced numerous times in the Evermeet). OMGOMGOMGOMGOMGOMGOMGOMGOMGOMGGOMGOMGOMG OMGOMGOMGOMGOMGOMGOMGOMGOMGOMGOMGOMGOMGO MGOMGOMGOMGOMGOMGOMGOMGOMGOMGOMGOMGOMGOM GOMGOMGOMGOMGOMGOMGOMGOMGOMGOMGOMGOMGOMG OMGOMGOMGOMGOMGOMGOMGOMGOMGOMGOMGOMGOMGO MGOMGOMGOMGOMGOMGOMGOMG - House Starym was predominantly a Moon Elf House by the time that they assassinated the heir to Cormanthyr (regardless of what LEoF will tell you). Does that negatively affect the game? Then it doesn't matter - Elven High Magi are not killed off in droves by simply hurled fireballs and lightning bolts (even mechanically this makes no sense, as at the very least to have the EHM PrC in 3E you need to be at least ~23rd level; so the RotAW novel depicted it incorrectly from a lore-wise point of view). Newflash: A Novel doesn't match up with game mechanics. In other news, grass is green, the sky is blue, and elfs suck. More at 11. - Originally, the Killing Storm was not pinned on the Aryvandaaran High Magi; they were merely one of many culprits, and WotC changing this to a definite fact only serves to further distort the conception of Sun Elves in Faerun. - The Ilythiiri didn't need Wealdath to corrupt them, because Ghaunadaur already had his slimy appendages on them for thousands of years. - Eladrin were never "Elven angels" or direct servants of the Seldarine. I have no idea what any of this is about. - Elven High Magic could never be stored in anything but a Sel'Kiira. What's a sel'kiira? On an unrelated note, I love how whoever invented that word had an oppurtunity to use it correctly(Putting it between the i's), but chose not to. - Part of understanding and being able to use Elven High Magic was personally experiencing the passage of time as it affects things, and gaining patience; it has nothing to do with how powerful or talented an apprentice is. - Elven High Magic was powerful because it was an Elven melding of personal spirit and innate magic, which was disrupted by any non-Elven blood, regardless of how magical or potent it is; it's powerful because it's Elven. How Do these things affect the game? - Mythals never had anchors; ANY of them, and NO non-Elven civilization that we know of was ever able to duplicate them with any worthwhile emulation of their power, Epic Spellcasting or no Epic Spellcasting. Karsus would disagree. - Corellon was always allowed to have LG Clerics, as Sun Elves tend more strongly towards Law, and they make up the vast bulk of his clergy; so according to WotC, either he has very few Clerics, or the Sun Elves have radically shifted alignments, and their entire history should be rewritten to reflect this. Or his clerics could be NG. Oh wait!, that would require people to change their pre-concieved notions. Carry on then. Eilistraee chose to live in the Abyss because she thought she'd be able to better aid the Drow there in reaching the light again; according to WotC, the emotional relevance and compassionate of her self-banishment is completely irrelevant, as they put her back into Arvandor with no explanation. Again, effect on game? I think that truly talented authors and learned people do not model their literature off of real world cultures. At least, they do not model them off of specific cultures which are recognizable as their real world counterparts. It's true that it is psychologically impossible to imagine and create something completely outside of one's realm of experience, but the Realms are based loosely on social and cultural archetypes and trends that can be found unilaterally across the world and throughout time. Right, like the Mulhorandi Pantheon. Definately not based on any real world religions. Faerun is based off of Human Culture, not European Culture. Actually, I would say that the vast majority of Faerun is based off of real-world analogs. And the vast majority of those real world analogs are european in origin. I feel that cultures and ideas can be abused just as much as people, and I'd be more of offended if someone slandered my character than if someone hit me. That is a true statement. Real-world cultures can be abused. However, Faerun does not exist, and is therefore, unabusable. Death Metal Sucks, FYI.
Lord Karsus 03-30-06, 12:30 AM	Uhhh, the vast majority of FR is based off of real-world earth analogs -Actually, no. The vast majority of the Forgotten Realms are independant of Earthen influences. I don't care what happened in the past. I care what is going to happen in the future. I don't want a history book, I want a game book that I can use for adventure ideas. -In order to understand the future, we must learn from the past. OMGOMGOMGOMGOMGOMGOMGOMGOMGOMGGOMGOMGOMG OMGOMGOMGOMGOMGOMGOMGOMGOMGOMGOMGOMGOMGO MGOMGOMGOMGOMGOMGOMGOMGOMGOMGOMGOMGOMGOM GOMGOMGOMGOMGOMGOMGOMGOMGOMGOMGOMGOMGOMG OMGOMGOMGOMGOMGOMGOMGOMGOMGOMGOMGOMGOMGO MGOMGOMGOMGOMGOMGOMGOMG Does that negatively affect the game? Then it doesn't matter -Whether it effects things negativley or positivley doesn't matter. It simply is a fact. Newflash: A Novel doesn't match up with game mechanics. In other news, grass is green, the sky is blue, and elfs suck. More at 11. -Actually, the term is 'Elves', not 'elfs'. But, you using the term 'elfs' doesn't surprise me... I have no idea what any of this is about. -Maybe you should read a little more then. Learn a thing or two, so you can be more efficient in these debates... What's a sel'kiira? On an unrelated note, I love how whoever invented that word had an oppurtunity to use it correctly(Putting it between the i's), but chose not to. -Selu'Kiira are Elven 'High Lore Gems'. How Do these things affect the game? -It effects things in a profound way. How can you properly play and D&D FR campaign, or understand a novel if you don't actually understand, or know what is going on? Karsus would disagree. -No, Karsus agrees with Dan. Dan is smart. Dan knows what he's talking about. Or his clerics could be NG. Oh wait!, that would require people to change their pre-concieved notions. Carry on then. -Not preconcieved notions. Fact are what they are... Again, effect on game? -In a great and profound way. Would it makes sense for a Lord of the Rings RPG game to arbitrarily ignore, or change already established facts, or actions? Right, like the Mulhorandi Pantheon. Definately not based on any real world religions. -The Mulhorandi were specifically said to have come from another world (Earth). And, their deities followed them to Toril. Actually, I would say that the vast majority of Faerun is based off of real-world analogs. And the vast majority of those real world analogs are european in origin. -See point number one. That is a true statement. Real-world cultures can be abused. However, Faerun does not exist, and is therefore, unabusable. -Again, wrong. Ed Greenwood first found out about the Forgotten Realms when Elminster came through a portal, and told him about it. Duh... Death Metal Sucks, FYI. -It's all a matter of opinion, and in most civilizations, including this one, a person cannot simply thrust their own views on another person. -I recommend that you pick up a few FR books, and flip through them, to brush up on some of your lore...
GungHo 03-30-06, 11:15 AM	-Actually, no. The vast majority of the Forgotten Realms are independant of Earthen influences. "Influences" can be interpreted two different ways, and I am a little confused to how you're using it above. Are you saying, "The vast majority of the Forgotten Realms are 'unflavored' by any similaries to Earth cultures... any similarities you see to something lke Cormyr and Norman France/England are misinterpretations/emotional baggage brought by the reader."? Or, are you saying, "The vast majority of the Forgotten realms have little to no interaction with people/cultures from Earth."?
ydirbut 03-30-06, 12:09 PM	-Actually, no. The vast majority of the Forgotten Realms are independant of Earthen influences. Let's Bust ye Olden FRCS Countries Anauroch- The Bedine? Surely not related to the Bedouins, another nomadic desert dwelling people. Of course, the write-up in the FRCS is not exactly comprehensive. Chult-Black people that live in the jungle and lack metal? A Unique Idea. Something I just noticed. The Baro's. Their 4,000 years old, and their leader is lvl.15? Tashalar- Not enough has been given to really determine whether it is based on Africa as a whole, or on a specific nation. Samarach- Not enough given. Thinndol- Black people that live on a plain and run real fast? Damara- Not readily based on any real-world nation, I admit. Narfell- Not particularly based on any real world nation again, although with the pony tails and nomadic culture, they seem to be loosely based on central Asia. Vaasa- A frozen land, relatively uninhabited and rich in mineral wealth. And Dog sleds. Sounds like Alaska to me. Although Dog sleds are awesome. Cormyr- Based on western Europe as a whole. The Dalelands- Again, western Europe Dragon Coast- Doesn't have a government, and not enough is given about it's culture to determine analogs. The Hordelands- Do I even have to say it? Evermeet- Standard Elven island nation. Based off of the gray havens from LOTR Lantan- Gnome inventor nation. Common stereotype. Mooneshae Isles- Celtic, If I am not mistaken. Nelanther- Not enough given to say. Nimbral- Again with the not enough given I'm getting tired of this, so let's get on with religion Triad- Gee, a Holy Trinity of Gods, one of whom is a martyr? Tyr-Name sounds strangely familiar I just got some mini stuff, so I'm going to play with them now. -In order to understand the future, we must learn from the past. All I want is to play D&D. -Whether it effects things negativley or positivley doesn't matter. It simply is a fact. Campaign Settings should be set up to facilitate adventures. -Selu'Kiira are Elven 'High Lore Gems'. You learn something everyday. -In a great and profound way. Would it makes sense for a Lord of the Rings RPG game to arbitrarily ignore, or change already established facts, or actions? No. However, LOTR was originally a book setting, not a D&D setting. -It's all a matter of opinion, and in most civilizations, including this one, a person cannot simply thrust their own views on another person. I find it quite interesting that you posted, but ignored Dan's comment about rap on the last page. -I recommend that you pick up a few FR books, and flip through them, to brush up on some of your lore... I would, but I'm kind of short on cash.
Ranger REG 03-30-06, 06:46 PM	-Actually, no. The vast majority of the Forgotten Realms are independant of Earthen influences. True, but we do notice some cultural parallels despite the names are different (or perhaps have been evolved or stolen). For example, is "Tyr" a Euro-influence on Faerun, or vice versa?
Dark Wizard 03-30-06, 06:51 PM	Anauroch- The Bedine? Surely not related to the Bedouins, another nomadic desert dwelling people. Of course, the write-up in the FRCS is not exactly comprehensive. That is because the Bedine were brought over from Zakhara, one of the more Earth-like continents put into the setting by TSR. Chult-Black people that live in the jungle and lack metal? A Unique Idea. Something I just noticed. The Baro's. Their 4,000 years old, and their leader is lvl.15? Many say it is somewhat African. This I will argue is needed and welcomed, one of the few instances of anything African in a mainstream high fantasy setting. Even then it is more vaguely Lost World style Africa than any specific ancient African kingdom. Tashalar- Not enough has been given to really determine whether it is based on Africa as a whole, or on a specific nation. Samarach- Not enough given. Thinndol- Black people that live on a plain and run real fast? Damara- Not readily based on any real-world nation, I admit. You're actually picking some poor examples to point out as Earth analogies, since there is little about them. Damara has more on it, and many people typically say it is kind of like the Holy Roman Empire or soemthing like that. I don't see it, seems to me rather like it initially started as a typical generic vaguely European monarchy, then went through changes and what not. Narfell- Not particularly based on any real world nation again, although with the pony tails and nomadic culture, they seem to be loosely based on central Asia. Loosely, but it's mostly due to the nomadic lifestyle and horsemanship, which is a lifestyle that one sees often in a steppe environment. Vaasa- A frozen land, relatively uninhabited and rich in mineral wealth. And Dog sleds. Sounds like Alaska to me. Although Dog sleds are awesome. Or any cold place with minerals and dogs, most of Russian Siberia, large parts of northern Canada, now we're talking about climatically similar parts of the two largest nations on Earth, and some of the most diverse nations and regions in the world. You need to do more to pin it down as an Earth analog. Cormyr- Based on western Europe as a whole. The Dalelands- Again, western Europe Everywhere from England to France to Germany to the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth. If a nation is like half a continent, then it's not so much an analogy but a series of archetype. Dragon Coast- Doesn't have a government, and not enough is given about it's culture to determine analogs. There has actually be a good amount given on the Dragon Coast. The lack of hard, fast analogies is because it was probably part of the core Realms, already detailed heavily by Ed Greenwood and company, which survived into publication. The Hordelands- Do I even have to say it? TSR addon. Originally FR went as far as the Endless Wastes, which was seat of Raumathar. The Tuigan type peoples who inhabit the Wastes now came from Kara-Tur and the design philosophy that came with it. Evermeet- Standard Elven island nation. Based off of the gray havens from LOTR I guess, it's not so much an Earth analogy but a Tolkien analogy. Again, the concept of an enchanted island, safe from harm and free from having to struggle for basic neccesities is not uncommon, i.e. Atlantis, Lemuria, Mu, Avalon. Two authors playing with archetypes. Ed's nod to Tolkien was with Aglarond, but in name only, since the FR Aglarond is mostly humans and half-elves and the LotR Aglarond was mostly dwarves or something. Lantan- Gnome inventor nation. Common stereotype. Lantan was actually a human kingdom with a heavy Gond influence, gnomes sort of got associated with it due to the artificer vibe. Though unlike the Tinker gnomes of Dragonlance, Lantan gnomes actually have gadgets that works, more often than not at least. Mooneshae Isles- Celtic, If I am not mistaken. Originally supposed to be part of Dragonlance. It was added to Faerun because they needed a ready novel trilogy to market the Realms with. Several here have expressed fondness for the Moonshaes, because it was their first exposure to the Realms. Even then, steps have been taken to integrate them with the rest fo the setting. Nelanther- Not enough given to say. They're mostly pirates, but not specifically Viking raiders, Sinbad the Sailor, or 17th century type like Blackbeard. A little bit of all three and a mix of other things if at all. Nimbral- Again with the not enough given Offshoot of Netheril, unlikely to have any Earth equivalent, unless Earth had an arrogant empire of mages that fell from the hubris of one very smart and powerful man who tried to single-handedly halt the life-draining magical assault on his homeland. You've neglected to mention some of the more popular places in these discussions: Amn/Tethyr/ Calimshan, Mulhorand/Unther/Chessenta, Rasheman, Sembia. I'm getting tired of this, so let's get on with religion Triad- Gee, a Holy Trinity of Gods, one of whom is a martyr? Tyr-Name sounds strangely familiar How does justice/law (Judge) and loyalty/duty/courage (Knight) fit into the other two of the trinity? Trinities are very common in religion. The three wise men/magi; the three Fates; Zeus, Poseidon, Hades were three brothers who divided the world/universe between them; Shiva is a trinity with his wife and another aspect of himself. There are a lot more out there. Tyr seems very much like his Norse inspiration, but he has a history and personality of his own that significantly departs form his source material. He is not simply the Norse Tyr dropped into Faerun. I've pointed out the reasons for why these areas either were not part of the original Forgotten Realms, or the analogies for the most part shown to not exist as solidly as many would think. The argument is not that Earth influences and inspirations do not exist in FR, to disregard all Earth influences is foolish. Yet, the goal should not be for 1-to-1 analogies, where Empire X in FR is so much like Y Empire in Earth with just some name changes. At any rate, I think Kara-Tur was originally designed by Gary Gygax and others with the intent of making it an independent setting. Regardless, I think it is time for Kara-Tur to get an update to bring it fully into the Forgotten Realms.
ydirbut 03-30-06, 09:37 PM	That is because the Bedine were brought over from Zakhara, one of the more Earth-like continents put into the setting by TSR. I'll take your word for it. Many say it is somewhat African. This I will argue is needed and welcomed, one of the few instances of anything African in a mainstream high fantasy setting. Even then it is more vaguely Lost World style Africa than any specific ancient African kingdom. Yeah, it doesn't seem to be based of any specific nation really. You're actually picking some poor examples to point out as Earth analogies, since there is little about them. Damara has more on it, and many people typically say it is kind of like the Holy Roman Empire or soemthing like that. I don't see it, seems to me rather like it initially started as a typical generic vaguely European monarchy, then went through changes and what not. I just went in the order of the FRCS. Loosely, but it's mostly due to the nomadic lifestyle and horsemanship, which is a lifestyle that one sees often in a steppe environment. Good point, the connection is somewhat nebulous. Everywhere from England to France to Germany to the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth. If a nation is like half a continent, then it's not so much an analogy but a series of archetype. I mean, basically, france and britain. There has actually be a good amount given on the Dragon Coast. The lack of hard, fast analogies is because it was probably part of the core Realms, already detailed heavily by Ed Greenwood and company, which survived into publication. I just have the FRCS. TSR addon. Originally FR went as far as the Endless Wastes, which was seat of Raumathar. The Tuigan type peoples who inhabit the Wastes now came from Kara-Tur and the design philosophy that came with it. ok. I guess, it's not so much an Earth analogy but a Tolkien analogy. Again, the concept of an enchanted island, safe from harm and free from having to struggle for basic neccesities is not uncommon, i.e. Atlantis, Lemuria, Mu, Avalon. Two authors playing with archetypes. Ed's nod to Tolkien was with Aglarond, but in name only, since the FR Aglarond is mostly humans and half-elves and the LotR Aglarond was mostly dwarves or something. Excellent point. Lantan was actually a human kingdom with a heavy Gond influence, gnomes sort of got associated with it due to the artificer vibe. Though unlike the Tinker gnomes of Dragonlance, Lantan gnomes actually have gadgets that works, more often than not at least. Really? Originally supposed to be part of Dragonlance. It was added to Faerun because they needed a ready novel trilogy to market the Realms with. Several here have expressed fondness for the Moonshaes, because it was their first exposure to the Realms. Even then, steps have been taken to integrate them with the rest fo the setting. Interesting. They're mostly pirates, but not specifically Viking raiders, Sinbad the Sailor, or 17th century type like Blackbeard. A little bit of all three and a mix of other things if at all. My next FR character is going to be a Orc pirate from Nelanther Offshoot of Netheril, unlikely to have any Earth equivalent, unless Earth had an arrogant empire of mages that fell from the hubris of one very smart and powerful man who tried to single-handedly halt the life-draining magical assault on his homeland. You could draw analogies between Rome and Netheril. You've neglected to mention some of the more popular places in these discussions: Amn/Tethyr/ Calimshan, Mulhorand/Unther/Chessenta, Rasheman, Sembia. Yeah, because a bunch of mini stuff showed up at my door. How does justice/law (Judge) and loyalty/duty/courage (Knight) fit into the other two of the trinity? I just remembered we have a ban on religious discussion, don't we? No, to actually get on subject, they should do a book about the monstrous races of Faerun. Say 160 pg.s, divided into 5 sections, with each section covering a different monster, Say Orcs, Goblins, Gnolls, Ogres, and Trolls. This way, not only is it useable for a larger audience, it is also more imminently usefull to those who purchase. While other books like this exist for other CSs, this could cover FR specific stuff, like Grey Orcs, Nelanther Orc Pirates, etc.
Lord Karsus 03-31-06, 12:06 AM	Let's Bust ye Olden FRCS... -The main point I was making is that Ed Greenwood has stressed numerous times that the Forgotten Realms is not a carbon copy of the Earth, or Middle-Earth, or whatever other fantasy world you want to pick. Yes, there might be some similarities to other places (some similarities stronger than others), but the Realms is an independent world, where things have evolved seperatley from Earth, Middle-Earth, and any other fantasy settings. All I want is to play D&D. -Well, I hope you have fun. Campaign Settings should be set up to facilitate adventures. -Campaign Settings should be akin to history textbooks. How can you play in a campaign setting that you know nothing about? A Campaign Setting is published to introduce players to the specific world. They detail the people, places, attitudes, and all other kinds of social issues, and physical aspects of the world. Only after a player actually reads and understands the world they are going to be playing in can they properly create a campaign that actually meshes well with the campaign world. If you wanted to create a setting where the Orcs and anthropomorphic Kraken rule Faerūn, nothing is stopping you. But, that type of setting won't fit with the published campaign, and won't be..."recognized", for a lack of better terms, by other, more orthodox players and/or DMs. You learn something everyday. -Yep. There's pleanty of stuff to learn out there... No. However, LOTR was originally a book setting, not a D&D setting. -The Realms were originally a book setting, not a D&D setting as well. Ed Greenwood's first story, "One comes, unhearalded, to Zirta", was first written in the late 60's or sometime. I am sure that someone can provide an exact date. And, the first "official" Forgotten Realms novel, Darkwalker of Moonshae was publshed before the first FRCS was pubslished. That's why we can't have arbitrary things changed for random reasons. If it wouldn't be acceptable for random things to change in the Lord of the Rings series, then why would it be alright for the Forgotten Realms series. In either case, it's not. I find it quite interesting that you posted, but ignored Dan's comment about rap on the last page. -I don't even know what Dan wrote. I might not like rap, which I don't, but it's not my place to say that your music is garbage (assuming that you listen to it). If Dan did write something to the effect of, "Rap is garbage", there's nothing wrong. He's merely expressing his views on the subject. But, if Dan wrote something along the lines of, "Rap is garbage, and you shouldn't listen to that nastiness", then he is wrong. I would, but I'm kind of short on cash. -There's pleanty of ther places then, if you're short on cash. Listening to our debates here on the message boards is a great source of lore. WotC also offers quite a few free downloads of 2e adventures and sourcebooks. And, for things that WotC doesn't offer, but you are interested in nonetheless, many RPG websites offer more downloads ranging from $4-5. That's only if you're really interested in that topic, though
ydirbut 03-31-06, 01:30 AM	-The main point I was making is that Ed Greenwood has stressed numerous times that the Forgotten Realms is not a carbon copy of the Earth, or Middle-Earth, or whatever other fantasy world you want to pick. Yes, there might be some similarities to other places (some similarities stronger than others), but the Realms is an independent world, where things have evolved seperatley from Earth, Middle-Earth, and any other fantasy settings. I am not claiming the FR is a carbon copy of earth. I am claiming that it is heavily based off of earth. -The Realms were originally a book setting, not a D&D setting as well. Ed Greenwood's first story, "One comes, unhearalded, to Zirta", was first written in the late 60's or sometime. I am sure that someone can provide an exact date. And, the first "official" Forgotten Realms novel, Darkwalker of Moonshae was publshed before the first FRCS was pubslished. That's why we can't have arbitrary things changed for random reasons. If it wouldn't be acceptable for random things to change in the Lord of the Rings series, then why would it be alright for the Forgotten Realms series. In either case, it's not. I am not buying the FRCS to emulate that shortstory. I am, however, buying a LOTR CS in order to emulate the LOTR.
Lord Karsus 03-31-06, 01:43 AM	I am not claiming the FR is a carbon copy of earth. I am claiming that it is heavily based off of earth. -Well, in the basic sense, everything is based off of Earth, since we don't know anything except for Earth. But, and I'll only mention this one last time, Ed Greenwood has said that he never intentionally based his original conceptions of the Realms on Terran cultures. When Kara-Tur, Maztica, Osse, Zakhara, Mulhorand, Unther, and the couple of ther Terran-based civilizations were added, these were specific instances, and not the Realms as a whole. I am not buying the FRCS to emulate that shortstory. I am, however, buying a LOTR CS in order to emulate the LOTR. -I fail to see how copying the LOTR storyline can be considered fun. Everything is preordained, from where the character go, to what they eat, to what they say, to who lives and who dies. Obviously, no one is going to want to play as Bormir. There is little room for Freewill. What happens if the characters suddenly want to side with Sauron? -The FRCS, and all other FR sourcebooks are published with lots of little lore tidbits so that no campaign can be linear, like a LOTR game would be. You are given all of the information that you need, and it is up to you to work with it.
cgarsmokr 03-31-06, 01:52 AM	[ No, to actually get on subject, they should do a book about the monstrous races of Faerun. Say 160 pg.s, divided into 5 sections, with each section covering a different monster, Say Orcs, Goblins, Gnolls, Ogres, and Trolls. This way, not only is it useable for a larger audience, it is also more imminently usefull to those who purchase. While other books like this exist for other CSs, this could cover FR specific stuff, like Grey Orcs, Nelanther Orc Pirates, etc.[/QUOTE] That would be pretty sweet, but the closest thing to that is Races of Faerun. I don't know if you're familiar with it or not but it describes orcs as well as elves, dwarves etc. In addition, although I haven't read it yet, Sons of Gruumsh may give some info on orcs that you may find useful.
cgarsmokr 03-31-06, 01:56 AM	-Well, in the basic sense, everything is based off of Earth, since we don't know anything except for Earth. But, and I'll only mention this one last time, Ed Greenwood has said that he never intentionally based his original conceptions of the Realms on Terran cultures. When Kara-Tur, Maztica, Osse, Zakhara, Mulhorand, Unther, and the couple of ther Terran-based civilizations were added, these were specific instances, and not the Realms as a whole. What's Osse?
Lord Karsus 03-31-06, 02:00 AM	-Well, in the basic sense, everything is based off of Earth, since we don't know anything except for Earth. But, and I'll only mention this one last time, Ed Greenwood has said that he never intentionally based his original conceptions of the Realms on Terran cultures. When Kara-Tur, Maztica, Osse, Zakhara, Mulhorand, Unther, and the couple of ther Terran-based civilizations were added, these were specific instances, and not the Realms as a whole. What's Osse? -Osse is a southern, Island continent that was mentioned in the novel Lady of Poison. There is no canon lore about it, save that a man named Gunggari comes from Osse, he uses a club-like weapon called a Dizheri (sp?) and is a Tattooed Soldier, which may or may not be an individual status.
cgarsmokr 03-31-06, 02:06 AM	-Osse is a southern, Island continent that was mentioned in the novel Lady of Poison. There is no canon lore about it, save that a man named Gunggari comes from Osse, he uses a club-like weapon called a Dizheri (sp?) and is a Tattooed Soldier, which may or may not be an individual status. Thanks. I wonder if this is the same land that Ubtao brought the peoples of Chult from?
Lord Karsus 03-31-06, 02:19 AM	Thanks. I wonder if this is the same land that Ubtao brought the peoples of Chult from? -Maybe. Who knows...?
Dark Wizard 03-31-06, 02:22 AM	There are rumors and conjecture that the land south of Maztica is the place where Ubtao brought the Chultans from.
Lord Karsus 03-31-06, 02:29 AM	There are rumors and conjecture that the land south of Maztica is the place where Ubtao brought the Chultans from. -Could be. Osse seems to be the little island continent south of the Shining Sea on the map labeled "A Scholar's View of Abier-Toril" on Pg. 231 in the FRCS, labeled "Unknown Lands". If so, Osse would be south of Zakhara, and south of Chult as well. Directly south of Chult, actually.
GothicDan 03-31-06, 09:43 PM	Reading the last couple posts on this thread just got me laughing. It's really amusing what people will assume when they don't actually know enough about the topic upon which they are commenting. I don't play FR. At all. I like it for the world it is, and the culture, and the history, and the idiosyncrasies. It's easier to analyze a setting from an unbiased point of view when you're not in for it merely to "have fun."
Gallameed 03-31-06, 10:49 PM	It's easier to analyze a setting from an unbiased point of view when you're not in for it merely to "have fun." This is SO funny; I mean YEAH! Who would want to play a roleplaying game to ''merely have fun'' how crap would that be; I'm doing a degree at university in Forgotten Realms because I'm making it my life! Gods! imagine if people actually had fun.. with a game? What suckers; I dont know about you but when I play a game in which I pretend to be made up creatures in a magical world I want it to be deadly SERIOUS, honestly... sometimes we just play at being scribes in an office... for like...ages...it.....totally....rocks... Once upon a time we had this problem player join our group who was all like: "I wanna be a hero, possibly set foot in a dungeon and save something!" As you can guess (the very sensible) DM said "No, I'm sorry but we only allow pompous assumption and nay-saying here, we shall have NO more of your ''fun'' here, be on your way lad; try playing a few less games in this setting before you come here with that attitude!" I dont know about you but I count my blessings that we were able to get rid of that guy and his crazy views on the GAME we PLAY.
Lord Karsus 04-01-06, 08:45 AM	This is SO funny; I mean YEAH! Who would want to play a roleplaying game to ''merely have fun'' how crap would that be; I'm doing a degree at university in Forgotten Realms because I'm making it my life! Gods! imagine if people actually had fun.. with a game? What suckers; I dont know about you but when I play a game in which I pretend to be made up creatures in a magical world I want it to be deadly SERIOUS, honestly... sometimes we just play at being scribes in an office... for like...ages...it.....totally....rocks... Once upon a time we had this problem player join our group who was all like: "I wanna be a hero, possibly set foot in a dungeon and save something!" As you can guess (the very sensible) DM said "No, I'm sorry but we only allow pompous assumption and nay-saying here, we shall have NO more of your ''fun'' here, be on your way lad; try playing a few less games in this setting before you come here with that attitude!" I dont know about you but I count my blessings that we were able to get rid of that guy and his crazy views on the GAME we PLAY. -Hmm...I think I detect some sarcasm... ;) -Well, for what is is worth, I don't play FR either- that's because of lack of players more than anything. But, I too enjoy the Realms as a world, which can be studied, and watched from afar, rather than a setting for a RPG campaign.
Brenigin 04-02-06, 01:27 AM	Osse is a southern, Island continent that was mentioned in the novel Lady of Poison. There is no canon lore about it, save that a man named Gunggari comes from Osse, he uses a club-like weapon called a Dizheri (sp?) and is a Tattooed Soldier, which may or may not be an individual status. [Sticks head out of Antipodean burrow] "Osse" and "Gunggari" are a slightly odd attempt at slipping an analogue to Australian aboriginal culture into the Realms. Australia is often referred to colloquially as Aussie, or Oz. Gungarri, is an attempt at a name that linguistically sounds 'right' for an Australian aboriginal language. The dizheri is based on the didgeridoo, an aboriginal instrument which, while it could conceivably be used to knock someone senseless, was never used as a weapon to the best of my knowledge. Where the analog gets weird is the tattoos. The aboriginal people often used/use extensive body painting for ceremonial purposes, but they don't have a strong tattooing tradition, unlike most of the other indigenous peoples of the South Pacific. [Retreats back into burrow]
Lord Karsus 04-02-06, 07:25 AM	[Sticks head out of Antipodean burrow] "Osse" and "Gunggari" are a slightly odd attempt at slipping an analogue to Australian aboriginal culture into the Realms. Australia is often referred to colloquially as Aussie, or Oz. Gungarri, is an attempt at a name that linguistically sounds 'right' for an Australian aboriginal language. The dizheri is based on the didgeridoo, an aboriginal instrument which, while it could conceivably be used to knock someone senseless, was never used as a weapon to the best of my knowledge. Where the analog gets weird is the tattoos. The aboriginal people often used/use extensive body painting for ceremonial purposes, but they don't have a strong tattooing tradition, unlike most of the other indigenous peoples of the South Pacific. [Retreats back into burrow] -Well, this goes to show that Osse isn't just a Realms-Australia, but it's own little thing.
Omya 04-02-06, 09:05 AM	-Well, this goes to show that Osse isn't just a Realms-Australia, but it's own little thing. An unfortunate choice of name if they dont want people to immediatly come to the conclusion that 'Osse' is another 'Oz'. They may has well have called it 'Dahn'awnder'. ;)
Lord Zeb 04-02-06, 12:55 PM	I'm firmly in the camp of desiring a Beyond Faerun sourcebook encompassing Kara-Tur, Maztica and Zakhara. I want it for the same reasons I want a Calimshan sourcebook... and a Cold Lands book... and an updated Ancient Empires (Mulhorandi etc) book... and more. Why? I love that Toril is bigger than just Faerun. I like the idea of being able to travel the globe, the concepts of different cultures coming together (peacefully and with conflict) - it grows the world. I think a few other places should be covered, but in '08-'09, Beyond Faerun would fit in pretty well. I know Dragons of Faerun and Mysteries of the Moonsea are on the dial for 06 - I guess something about Elves in 07 and....? This is how I would dream their release schedule would go... 07 Elves of Faerun 07 Islands of Faerun 08 Cold Lands (good tie-in with the Artemis/Jarlaxle books) 08 Calimshan & the Lands of Intrigue... (Hot & Cold in 08) 09 Beyond Faerun 09 Ancient Empires .... So even as a fan of Kara-Tur, I'm willing to put some other regional sourcebooks ahead on the schedule...but my idea is that FR is big enough for all of us, and adding the rest of the planet to the list of lore seems like a good decision [i]for all of us gamers that want it[i] - to everybody else, don't buy. ;) Ideally Beyond Faerun would cover what has happened since their last updates, give current culture & government etc info...and advance the interaction between Faerun and these places. Thesk has a ton of Shou immigrants...play that up. Plan B for me would be for them to take a Lands of Intrigue regional sourcebook and add a chapter for Maztica (thanks, Amn), and while thematically a bit off, an Ancient Empires with Shou Lung added on.
GothicDan 04-02-06, 03:47 PM	I dont know about you but I count my blessings that we were able to get rid of that guy and his crazy views on the GAME we PLAY. I have more fun in creation, analysis, expansion, and research than play. Then again, I'm a Physics Major specializing in Particle Physics, as well as studying Classics and Mathematics, as possible Minors or Majors. So, that's just who I am. I appreciate and analyze Faerun as a world, not as a game.
Karsus the Mad 04-02-06, 05:10 PM	While I don't always agree with what Dan says, at least I have respect for him. He simply didn't deserve such ridicule Galameed. Some of us truly care about the Realms. That's not including the GAME aspect of it. We care about it the same way that a Tolkien nut cares about Middle Earth. Don't insult that, it's simply rude and undeserved.
Gallameed 04-02-06, 06:16 PM	While I don't always agree with what Dan says, at least I have respect for him. He simply didn't deserve such ridicule Galameed. Some of us truly care about the Realms. That's not including the GAME aspect of it. We care about it the same way that a Tolkien nut cares about Middle Earth. Don't insult that, it's simply rude and undeserved. It sounds like your saying I dont truly care for the realms, heh, thats cute. :P I repect Gothic Dans (and others) knowledge of the realms greatly but at times he dosent seem to be very nice and his posts often sound snidey and condescending to my ears. But I agree that I was overly harsh before and I'm sorry if I offended you GD. @ Gothic Dan: Maybe I just dont "get" your way of interacting with others or something. This post annoyed me when I read it; look at it: Reading the last couple posts on this thread just got me laughing. It's really amusing what people will assume when they don't actually know enough about the topic upon which they are commenting. I don't play FR. At all. I like it for the world it is, and the culture, and the history, and the idiosyncrasies. It's easier to analyze a setting from an unbiased point of view when you're not in for it merely to "have fun." Is it just me who thinks it sounds just a tad snooty and sounds like your saying its stupid to treat FR simply as a rpg setting and therefore we're somehow inferior to "your" way of loving the realms? So ok, I took the **** a bit in retaliation, no big deal, people here often have a bit of feisty banter without getting their knickers in a twist! ;) The thing you have to remember is that the Forgotten Realms IS primarily a game setting. Games are played for fun and most people who come here to use the boards are trying to get more info or ask questions in order to fashion entertaining and "fun" gaming moments for their games, characters or adventures. Considering that WotC could (and have) retconned a fair bit of realms lore at the drop of a hat; this bad boy may not the greatest fantasy world to become a fanatic about, it'll only lead to you getting a broken heart.;) Stick with tolkien for that, at least he's not gonna be doing any retcons any time soon.
GothicDan 04-02-06, 07:06 PM	FR was meant to primarily be a story setting, and that's the way it was originally designed, and that's how it was actually developed in GAME by TSR. The fact that WotC ignores this fact basically invalidates the entire basis of the setting itself; they care about it even less than TSR did, and that is going pretty far. I care about a lot of things. I care about FR, Dragonlance, Planescape, my friends, Physics, social etiquette and respect, the ability for people to use logic, the ability for people to appreciate a certain Machiavellian manipulation in relationships. Most people simply don't think enough to give a damn about things as much as I do. Am I an elitist? Yes. And no amount of petty ridicule or sarcasm is going to make me change my opinion when I feel the way I live my life is the way I want to live it. :) And I hate Tolkien's writing style. I couldn't abide getting into the world because I can't get past the style.
Karsus the Mad 04-02-06, 07:19 PM	It sounds like your saying I dont truly care for the realms, heh, thats cute. Not at all my friend:) Merely pointing out that some care equally, yet in different ways:) In actuality I think we (you and me) think of it in a similar manner. To me it is a game setting first and foremost. That of course doesn't preclude it not being something else either:) I repect Gothic Dans (and others) knowledge of the realms greatly but at times he dosent seem to be very nice and his posts often sound snidey and condescending to my ears. Honestly, it does to me as well. But there's nothing wrong with that. We all can get that way, so long as ettiquette rules out the more human aspects of such things:) And his responding post confirms it:) That's just the way he is and he admits it:) Dan's a nice chap nonetheless. Now...if only we can cure him of that elven problem :dancin: and convert him back to Netherese, then I think he'd make an exceptional archwizard :bigeyes: Peeeez Dan? You know you like the feel of raw magic, don't deny it! ;)
GothicDan 04-02-06, 10:03 PM	Pft. Two words: Sun Elf. :) Granted, my favorite Elven archetype is the currently most down-trodden by 3E. But they're still my favorite. And I like the Silvanesti from Krynn, too. And yes, I truly am a Gay (mostly) Centrist (with a liberal tendencies), and an atheist. I'm not a religious Republican, no matter how I come off. ;)
Karsus the Mad 04-02-06, 10:39 PM	Bah, I still haven't given up hope for ya ;) I'll do it subtly. First get you to moon elf. Then down to half-elf. Before you're aware, it'll be humans! Then it's an easy step towards Netherese humans. Yessssss :cool:
Ranger REG 04-03-06, 01:51 AM	I appreciate and analyze Faerun as a world, not as a game. Funny how you say that considering that Faerun is just a portion of that world. :smirk: I thought as a physics students you try to look at the bigger picture.
Ranger REG 04-03-06, 02:05 AM	FR was meant to primarily be a story setting, and that's the way it was originally designed, and that's how it was actually developed in GAME by TSR. The fact that WotC ignores this fact basically invalidates the entire basis of the setting itself; they care about it even less than TSR did, and that is going pretty far. AFAIC, the only thing WotC ignores is our pleas for revived Kara-Tur material since its introduction way back in the 1st Edition TSR Era. It seems that you and WotC are in agreement with regard to this particular topic. Correct me if I'm wrong. I care about a lot of things. I care about FR, Dragonlance, Planescape, my friends, Physics, social etiquette and respect, the ability for people to use logic, the ability for people to appreciate a certain Machiavellian manipulation in relationships. Most people simply don't think enough to give a damn about things as much as I do. Well, it's hard to tell. Am I an elitist? Yes. And no amount of petty ridicule or sarcasm is going to make me change my opinion when I feel the way I live my life is the way I want to live it. :) You do realize that while I respect you, by your declaration we are mortal enemies. I despise elitists and they way they look down on things not of their standards and quality. As romantic as Forgotten Realms world can be envisioned or imagined as an escape from our harsh reality, we wouldn't relate to it if it is all too perfect. And I hate Tolkien's writing style. I couldn't abide getting into the world because I can't get past the style. I'm certain you are not alone in this opinion. But he was never a typical trained commercial fiction writer that populate the contemporary fantasy literatures today. Ironic that his works have gain many fans over many decades, including them Tolkien Purists-slash-Elitists that turned up their noses at PJ's LOTR adaptation. :P
Lord Karsus 04-03-06, 08:48 AM	Bah, I still haven't given up hope for ya ;) I'll do it subtly. First get you to moon elf. Then down to half-elf. Before you're aware, it'll be humans! Then it's an easy step towards Netherese humans. Yessssss :cool: -Once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny...Don't to it, Dan. Don't do it...
Karsus the Mad 04-03-06, 05:12 PM	-Once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny...Don't to it, Dan. Don't do it... Shooooooooosh! I'm trying to be subtly and sneaky-like :mad: ;)
Karsus the Mad 04-03-06, 05:14 PM	-Once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny...Don't to it, Dan. Don't do it... Shooooooooosh! I'm trying to be subtle and sneaky-like :mad: ;)
GothicDan 04-03-06, 11:11 PM	Ranger: Funny how you say that considering that Faerun is just a portion of that world. I thought as a physics students you try to look at the bigger picture. Part of that bigger picture is noticing the cultural and historical rammifications of the presence or lack of presence of Kara-Tur, Maztica, etc., and being able to analyze the flaws in the design method, and how poorly they mesh with Faerun. And note that Ed DID detail other continents completely, and TSR simply refused to use them. If we had more knowledge about these original continents, you can bet there'd be a lot more detail about how they interacted with Faerun over the millennia, and each other, which from a socio-historical point of view, is more accurate than the continents that TSR added on. AFAIC, the only thing WotC ignores is our pleas for revived Kara-Tur material since its introduction way back in the 1st Edition TSR Era. As opposed to the continents that SHOULD be in the place of places like Kara-Tur, which TSR ignored in the first place when Ed presented them with the information. And they're ignoring a lot more - one look at their book design can prove that. It seems that you and WotC are in agreement with regard to this particular topic. Correct me if I'm wrong. I am in agreement with WotC for a differing reason. When it comes down to it, WotC is not publishing the stuff because they would lose a heck of a lot of money. I do not want them to publish the material because I think that, as far as it being linked to Faerun, I think the material sucks horrendously. Well, it's hard to tell. What is hard to tell, specifically? You do realize that while I respect you, by your declaration we are mortal enemies. I despise elitists and they way they look down on things not of their standards and quality. As romantic as Forgotten Realms world can be envisioned or imagined as an escape from our harsh reality, we wouldn't relate to it if it is all too perfect. I despise people who do not have the strength of character, will, and confidence to commit to a way of life in such a fashion that they seek to not only better themselves, but better the world overall, in regards to the way they want to live. I don't like people who are overly indecisive, lazy, too set in their ways to see other points of view, and who lack ambition.
cgarsmokr 04-04-06, 01:50 AM	Part of that bigger picture is noticing the cultural and historical rammifications of the presence or lack of presence of Kara-Tur, Maztica, etc., and being able to analyze the flaws in the design method, and how poorly they mesh with Faerun. And note that Ed DID detail other continents completely, and TSR simply refused to use them. If we had more knowledge about these original continents, you can bet there'd be a lot more detail about how they interacted with Faerun over the millennia, and each other, which from a socio-historical point of view, is more accurate than the continents that TSR added on. Where did get the info that Ed created and detailed other continents. I'm not doubting you, I'm just curious.
GothicDan 04-04-06, 04:57 AM	It was actually in one of his responses directed at me, personally, when I was discussing this topic before, and Kuje brought it over to Candlekeep. :) He said that he DID originally detail other continents, but TSR chose to ignore them.
Karsus the Mad 04-04-06, 05:06 AM	Now that just doesn't make sense. Ignoring something that's already created? Would of been more efficient to simply take what's already been thought out, worked in, and described, instead of spending all the effort, time, and money creating something new only to discontinue it after a short period.
GothicDan 04-04-06, 05:21 AM	Yeah. So it's another reason why I dislike Kara-Tur, Maztica, etc. They are poorly-designed, with very little imagination, replicas of real life places that were slapped without thought onto Faerun, in place of other PREVIOUSLY DETAILED continents which were probably much less real-life inspired, and had an actual history in the setting.
Lord Karsus 04-04-06, 07:22 AM	Yeah. So it's another reason why I dislike Kara-Tur, Maztica, etc. They are poorly-designed, with very little imagination, replicas of real life places that were slapped without thought onto Faerun, in place of other PREVIOUSLY DETAILED continents which were probably much less real-life inspired, and had an actual history in the setting. -Any idea what Ed's original extra-Faerūnian continents were called? Know a little about them, perhaps?
GothicDan 04-04-06, 10:38 AM	I know nothing about them. Maybe we could posit the question to Ed some time...
Katowice 04-04-06, 10:54 AM	Maybe we could get a Kara-Tur web enhancement or series of web articles?
cgarsmokr 04-04-06, 03:53 PM	Now that just doesn't make sense. Ignoring something that's already created? Would of been more efficient to simply take what's already been thought out, worked in, and described, instead of spending all the effort, time, and money creating something new only to discontinue it after a short period. Yeah, it doesn't make sense but I can certainly see TSR doing that. :doh:
Karsus the Mad 04-04-06, 06:26 PM	Yeah, it doesn't make sense but I can certainly see TSR doing that. :doh: Indeed true :)
Lord Karsus 04-05-06, 08:53 AM	I know nothing about them. Maybe we could posit the question to Ed some time... -That sounds good to me!
Ranger REG 04-05-06, 04:12 PM	It was actually in one of his responses directed at me, personally, when I was discussing this topic before, and Kuje brought it over to Candlekeep. :) He said that he DID originally detail other continents, but TSR chose to ignore them. So, you're miffed that TSR rebuffed Ed's material? And you're miffed again that WotC doesn't want to reform Forgotten Realms to be closer to Ed's vision? Okay, since you're his confidante, how would Ed have handled the Asian culture counterparts on Toril? :bored:
GothicDan 04-05-06, 05:59 PM	So, you're miffed that TSR rebuffed Ed's material? And you're miffed again that WotC doesn't want to reform Forgotten Realms to be closer to Ed's vision? When you take away a few threads of a tapestry that has taken decades to create, with much research, thought, and purpose given into its making, and add in threads that look nothing like the original ones, the end product isn't going to be ass sound as the original. Okay, since you're his confidante, how would Ed have handled the Asian culture counterparts on Toril? He wouldn't have created them, most likely. Ed has made it clear that in his original Realms he was very careful to make no direct real-life cultural analogies.
Krash 04-05-06, 08:09 PM	-Any idea what Ed's original extra-Faerūnian continents were called? Know a little about them, perhaps? To clarify, my understanding is that Ed didn't detail the other continents of Toril as he did Faerūn. Sure, he may have had an idea of what he wanted there in case his PCs decided to go there, but that's about it. He did e-mail me once and tell me about Anchorome, the lands to the west. Basically, this was a long archipelago of islands, within travel distance of each other, each with a little mini-dungeon and enough resources (food, water etc.) to help the PCs and allow them to keep on going. Ed's original Realms in fact didn't have all of Faerūn detailed. His realmslore on Impiltur is pretty much what you see in FR6. Similarly, southern lands such as Var the Golden, Durpar et. al. were only detailed superficially (as in: this is "kalath" a sticky, sweet conserve similar to quince paste which is predominately procured from trade caravans from Estagund ...). That's how Ed detailed his Realms: incrementally. His genius was keeping track of all the on-the-fly lore references he came up with, noting them, and using them over and over to add layers to the coherent whole. The only areas that could be described as 'detailed' would be the Moonsea, the Vast, Heartlands, Sword Coast and the North. Anything else was limited to references and lore, not hard info re stats on cities, NPCs and other info. Why bother writing up Sheirtalar in detail if your PCs are never going to go there? People forget that Ed was a DM way before he was a game designer and author. -- George Krashos
GothicDan 04-05-06, 10:03 PM	To clarify, my understanding is that Ed didn't detail the other continents of Toril as he did Faerūn. Sure, he may have had an idea of what he wanted there in case his PCs decided to go there, but that's about it. Krash, this doesn't mesh with what he replied directly to me in a previous thread. He said that he DID detail other areas of Abeir-Toril besides Faerun (though surely not in as exhaustive detail), and that it was TSR who decided what to pick and choose, and they only chose Faerun. And I was always under the impression that he was writing/detailing stuff as an author way before he ever got heavily into D&D or ran it in his world. ;)
Krash 04-05-06, 10:55 PM	Krash, this doesn't mesh with what he replied directly to me in a previous thread. He said that he DID detail other areas of Abeir-Toril besides Faerun (though surely not in as exhaustive detail), and that it was TSR who decided what to pick and choose, and they only chose Faerun. And I was always under the impression that he was writing/detailing stuff as an author way before he ever got heavily into D&D or ran it in his world. ;) Hey GD. I suppose I should just ask the great man himself. The reason I posted as I did was that over the years I've pinged Ed on many, many lore queries. Over time, I could for the most part 'pick' which responses were 'made up' on the fly and which he was relying on previous notes/material. I've had chats to him re the effect of the Damara/Vaasa drop-in, the creation of the Moonshaes and other TSR/WotC inspired geographical changes. He's never once said anything like "The region where Kara-Tur is now is where I had my kobold kingdom, Zakhara is where I had another refuge of the elves and Maztica was a great nation of Talona-worshipping plague rats." That's not to say that those scenarios are unlikely, but I simply think that Ed may have broadly conceptualised these 'other lands' and left it at that. But I will drop him an e-mail just to make sure. Naturally he's likely to respond that I'm an idiot and that OF COURSE he's detailed the other continents and about 5 boxes worth of material are testament to the fact. The man never ceases to amaze me. :) -- George Krashos
cgarsmokr 04-06-06, 01:18 AM	Hey GD. I suppose I should just ask the great man himself. The reason I posted as I did was that over the years I've pinged Ed on many, many lore queries. Over time, I could for the most part 'pick' which responses were 'made up' on the fly and which he was relying on previous notes/material. I've had chats to him re the effect of the Damara/Vaasa drop-in, the creation of the Moonshaes and other TSR/WotC inspired geographical changes. He's never once said anything like "The region where Kara-Tur is now is where I had my kobold kingdom, Zakhara is where I had another refuge of the elves and Maztica was a great nation of Talona-worshipping plague rats." That's not to say that those scenarios are unlikely, but I simply think that Ed may have broadly conceptualised these 'other lands' and left it at that. But I will drop him an e-mail just to make sure. Naturally he's likely to respond that I'm an idiot and that OF COURSE he's detailed the other continents and about 5 boxes worth of material are testament to the fact. The man never ceases to amaze me. :) -- George Krashos Thanks Krash, I for one would love to know if Ed detailed the other continents and if so, what he had in mind.
cgarsmokr 04-06-06, 01:38 AM	Okay, since you're his confidante, how would Ed have handled the Asian culture counterparts on Toril? :bored:[/QUOTE] Here's a bit of an interview with ED back in 99' regarding this topic: KIM: My second question follows the first in that a number of interested people would like to know how your own Realms differs from the Realms of TSR/WOTC? This is a very broad question, but could you perhaps pick a few points that the "official" material departs from your home-grown campaign. ED: Not a lot, actually. Most of the "bits I hadn't filled in" were skillfully extrapolated from my fragmentary or skeletal notes, so they 'match' and 'feel right.' Specifically, my Moonshae Isles were a lot more like the real-world Orkneys and Hebrides, or LeGuin's Earthsea: lots of little islands of fisher-folk (rather than Doug's Celtic continent), the Whamite Isles (of THE GREAT KHAN GAME game) were airlifted into the Realms, Bob Salvatore peeked over The Spine of the World to see what was there and add Icewind Dale, and my glaciers were rolled back to insert Vaasa, Damara, and the Bloodstone lands. TSR bought the Realms so as to provide a setting for the 2nd Edition game, and for those purposes it makes perfect sense to provide real-world-equivalent 'steppes,' Mayan, Oriental, Arabic, and Celtic settings, but my own personal tastes run to 'no recognizable real-world equivalents' in my own Realms... because players tend to make mistaken assumptions (rather than roleplaying to the hilt) based on their understandings of real-world feudalism, or gunpowder, or stirrups, or Roman galleys, or whatever, if things are "too close." So I would not have flavored areas of the Realms in the same way published Realmslore has. With that said, I'm perfectly happy with what has developed; every world has to be 'alive,' growing and developing, I knew things would be done slightly differently than I would have done, and because of the diverse creative hands at work, the Realms is broader and richer than my own personal view, and the Realms has---at last---the capacity to surprise me (hard to do when you've created it all). For the entire interview, see below. http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/castle/2566/ed-interview.htm
GothicDan 04-06-06, 02:03 AM	but my own personal tastes run to 'no recognizable real-world equivalents' in my own Realms... because players tend to make mistaken assumptions (rather than roleplaying to the hilt) And in this, I agree with Ed. :) One has to make a stand somewhere on what one feels is right and appropriate, and what one prefers. I just happen to draw that line at the same point as he of the Greenwood.
Lord Zeb 04-06-06, 08:35 AM	With that said, I'm perfectly happy with what has developed; every world has to be 'alive,' growing and developing, I knew things would be done slightly differently than I would have done, and because of the diverse creative hands at work, the Realms is broader and richer than my own personal view That's the part that makes Beyond Faerun a hopeful product that fits with Ed's discussion on an alive setting with diverse regions and products. To make something for all kinds of FR fans.
Ranger REG 04-06-06, 04:53 PM	He wouldn't have created them, most likely. Ed has made it clear that in his original Realms he was very careful to make no direct real-life cultural analogies. Then I would have not liked the Forgotten Realms that Ed created. Brutal honesty. :(
Dark Wizard 04-06-06, 07:03 PM	A concious effort to reduce real world cultural analogies does not mean Forgotten Realms has no real world cultural influences. Interesting aspects of various cultures that the authors had a fondness for are incorporated, and some things do inevitably make their way into the setting subconciously or less noticeably. We see things such as the heavy Celtic influences along the Sword Coast and even Norse influences especially in the North. I believe even Cormyr in its initial conception was to be an archetypal European-style monarchy. The approach seems more like -- here are some interesting ideas, let's put them together in an interesting and coherent combination that interacts with the other pieces we have already in place rather than just let that be mythic Britain. The latter method fails to take into account the differences that are present between the real world and FR, the result is something that seems fine on the surface, but jarring once you look at it as a whole within the setting world. Why is that, it is because the original regions, large swathes of territory, were not originally conceived using real world counterparts as direct models. If Forgotten Realms was originally conceived as a direct but magical counterpart to Earth, then having analogies would be fine, but that was obviously not the case. The result of the more integrated approach is a setting that has influences here and there. Cormyr might seem like England or France, but everything is two or three or more times removed from a direct comparison from the real world. Afterall, culture and history, some would argue, is a complex system, play history out with even the slightest variable and the outcomes could be completely different. It is hard to believe that even peoples from Earth cultures transplanted to the Forgotten Realms would develop with such strong cultural and historical correlations to the real world. I mean, we do have groups of demihumans and monsters roaming around and within these predominantly human cultural analogies that should account for some sort of effect over time. On a side note, a small quip, even with all of the real world analogies, Kara-Tur seems to lack a region that resembles the Warring States period or the later Three Kingdoms period of Chinese history. T'u'Lung doesn't quite cut it, as it seems more like the decadent, factionalized empire with a weak ruler similar to the 19th century Qing, or pretty much the end of any dynasty. There isn't an area with several small but potent and combative nations vying for dominance. Not only were these interesting and vital periods of history, they provide nearly unparalleled adventure opportunities.