Post/Author/DateTime	Post
dKyros 07-25-04, 12:47 AM	OKay okay so your all just settling down over who would win in a fight over Drizzt and Aragorn but how about the prospect of a battle with two of the mightiest wizards known. Yes Im talking about Gromph Baenre and Gandolf the White. If the archmage infamous to Menzoberranzan ever met up with the famous White Wizard in a duel who would win. Personally the question came to me because I am an avid Lord of the Rings fan but I have also just started reading the War of the Spider Queen series starting with Dissolution(great book btw). But it seems that the more i read the more i feel that Gromph would be able to stand his ground and perhaps might even be able to finish off old Gandolf. I was just wondering where everyone else stood on this subject.
The Simbul 07-25-04, 01:52 AM	How does Gromph fit into this picture?? Yes he may be the most powerful Wizard in Menzoberranzan, but he doesnt hold a candle to the power wielded by the rest of Faerun's archmages. Gandalf is the iconic "wizard"and arguebaly the most recongnizeable character (short of say, frodo) of Middle-Earth. His iconic "equal" in faerun would be more likely to be found in Elminster, and in fact many people have described Elminster as a gandalf-rip off, although I cna assure you the similarities end with their appearences (plus El looks like Sean Connery now, so they dont even have that in common). Regardless, you cant compare D&D Wizards to Middle Earth Wizards, not only because unlike D&D, Middle-Earth is not saturated with over the top, earth-shattering magic, but also due to the nature of their powers. The Istari of Middle Earth, being the five"wizards" of which Gandalf is a member, are not human bookworms who decided to make a science out of spellcasting, nor are they mortal beings with a "gift" for magic like sorcerers. Gandalf and the Istari are divine agents of the Valar, which in D&D terms would be the Pantheon of Middle-Earth. Thus in D&D terms someone like gandalf would be a native outsider with innumerous magical abilities and powers, or even a joint Divine Proxy of Manwe and Varda. If Middle-Earth was as saturated with magic as D&D is, then chances are they would still outstrip any mortal wizards or the like. Furthermore, I put the characters created by the father of modern fantasy above any others which may have followed in his pattern. For all intents and purposes D&D wouldnt exist without middle earth, thus Tolkien's Wizard in my eyes always rules supreme.
Banpai 07-25-04, 06:00 AM	The simbul is absolutely right about gandalf (I would have given him the demigod template) but Gromph is an Epic Level Wizard (Diviner18Archmage 4) and Faerun doesnt have plenty of Epic level Characters that werent totally weakened (like the Simbul in the FRCS for example).. The fact that he is the Archmage of a Sorcere makes him even more dangeraus (he would be much more of a challenge if he would have epic spellcasting with so many Ritual contributants nearby).
warlockco 07-25-04, 06:07 AM	I'm still trying to figure out why Gromph is a Diviner instead of a Wizard though. I haven't seen anything that really supports him being a Diviner. Yeah he does alot of spying, but what drow wizard doesn't?
Banpai 07-25-04, 07:26 AM	Well you definitely have to do a lot of spying to become the head of sorerer (and survive in this job longer than 5 minutes). And wit the current ruleset IIRC becomming a Diviner requires to give up only one other school of magic and Gromph already loses some spellslots for his High Arcanas.
Krash 07-25-04, 08:02 AM	I can't believe that this thread is .... oh, what's the point! Gromph would have to be better than Gandalf (it's not Gandolf) because his name has one less letter in it.:rolleyes: :embarrass -- George Krashos
Crust 07-25-04, 10:07 AM	Excellent points, Simbul. I don't think most Tolkien "fans" truly know who (or what) Gandalf and Saruman truly are. Their "magical" qualities have nothing to do with study. Those abilities come naturally to them, like the wings of an angel (which is what Gandalf is in a way). An excellent example of the ambiguity of magic in Middle-Earth comes up when the Fellowship meets the elves of Lothlorien. The hobbits in particular seem fascinated by the "magic" the elves command, but it is the elves themselves who admit that they are not familiar with the idea of "magic," that the effects and powers of their forest, their items, their culture, is something that is more of a natural (or perhaps supernatural) trait of the elven people rather than a skill learned and mastered over time.
The Simbul 07-25-04, 01:19 PM	Originally posted by Banpai The simbul is absolutely right about gandalf (I would have given him the demigod template) but Gromph is an Epic Level Wizard (Diviner18Archmage 4) and Faerun doesnt have plenty of Epic level Characters that werent totally weakened (like the Simbul in the FRCS for example)..The fact that Telemont Tanthul gained 9 XP levels and a +4 Level Adjustment template since 2nd edition is a clear enough example of how not all characters are weakened by 3E The fact that he is the Archmage of a Sorcere makes him even more dangeraus (he would be much more of a challenge if he would have epic spellcasting with so many Ritual contributants nearby). Out of the Eight Epic Faerunian Spellcasters in the Epic Level Handbook, which includes the likes of Elminster, Halaster, Khelben, and Szass Tam, only two of those NPC's (Iyraclea and the Simbul) actually have the Epic Spellcasting feat. Using that ratio amoungst many of Faeruns most powerful and listed NPC spellcasters, one can assume that outside of the ranks of Elven High Mages or Netherese Arcanists, the practice of creating and casting Epic Spells is not entirely commonplace on Toril. As a Div18/Acm4, Gromph Baenre only gets 1 Epic Feat, and given the selections of other characters at his level, I am not entirely sure it would be likely to be Epic Spellcasting. Furthermore, the majority of NPC's who havent been given full write-ups yet, but still would logically have access to Epic Spellcasting (i.e. Telemont Tanthul of Shade, the Elders of Evermeet, etc) could call upon far more spellcasting servants and attendees from the breadth of their nations, than say gromph could muster as the Archmage of one particular city. IMO, if anyone in Menzoberranzan were to wield Epic Spellcasting, either as rituals or otherwise, it would more likely be the Matron Mothers. Nonetheless, I assume the Gandalf vs {FRCS Wiz} is a one on one duel, rather than a combined effort, so ritual attendents arent really an issue.
Crust 07-25-04, 02:47 PM	Isn't Gromph currently a Diviner16/Archmage4? Wasn't he energy drained by Dyrr? I thought I read somewhere that he only has 20 levels now.
warlockco 07-25-04, 05:47 PM	One thing that is in Gromph's favor to argue he should or will have Epic Spellcasting is that he does know Seldruin(sp?) the language that Elven High Magic is used with.
dKyros 07-25-04, 06:41 PM	Okay basically i started this thread because of an arguement me and my friend were having over who the best wizard was. He said Gandalf while i argued that Gromph would be able to crush him by summoning creatures of the abyss to do his bidding and also attacking the would be pressed Gandalf at the same time. Through the use of this strategy i believed that Gandalf could possibly lose to Gromph. Also i began to speculate that if somehow Gandalfs staff were to be knocked out of his hands he would almost surely lose the battle since it appeared that he could only use his true power when he channeled it through his staff. I believed this because of the battle with sarumun when he lost his staff he was unable to defend himself to the unslaught of magic. But alright consider that they are both on the prime material plane of Toril and Gandalf has realized the extent of his powers on this plane from what everyone has been saying he should be able to wipe the floor with Gromph right?(fight is still one on one)
DRdrizzt13beauOW 07-25-04, 09:17 PM	dKyros good to finally see ya on here, dude F*** Gandolf, Gromph allthe way baby!:angel: :smirk:
Banpai 07-26-04, 02:13 PM	@ the Simbul: Sorry I was wrong and you were right. Epic spellcasting is really a rare thing in the Realms, as it seems to be some kind of replacement for the spells above level 10 (IMO). But as someone menationed on this boards the War of The Spiderqueen series suggest that Gromph can lead a circle (circle magic is deatailed in the DMG under the Red Wizard prestige class) so I guessed that Epic Spellcasting would fit him very well, in addition to the fact that he has acces to great recources (nice for creating those expensive epic spells). The only problem i do see is that Epic Spellcsting is simly to rare in the realms.
Gadodel 07-26-04, 05:18 PM	Originally posted by The Simbul Furthermore, I put the characters created by the father of modern fantasy above any others which may have followed in his pattern. For all intents and purposes D&D wouldnt exist without middle earth, thus Tolkien's Wizard in my eyes always rules supreme. Father of Modern Fantasy: Yes. Though, even JRRT was influenced by the Classics.
Aluroon 07-26-04, 08:03 PM	There are many, many conflicting reports about Gromphs acutal level, i think dragon 302 had him at level 25 (Diviner20/archmage5). I like him at 25 (mostly because I Gromph is my second favorite FR character, I'll give you a hint about the 1st, he's a drow wizard as well, and appeared in dragon 302 with gromph) I'm not even going to compare Gandolf and Gromph, mostly because they are in two different leages of power, In two different worlds, and in two different systems. Aluroon
Mirtek 07-27-04, 11:40 AM	Originally posted by Aluroon There are many, many conflicting reports about Gromphs acutal level, i think dragon 302 had him at level 25 (Diviner20/archmage5). I like him at 25 (mostly because I Gromph is my second favorite FR character, I'll give you a hint about the 1st, he's a drow wizard as well, and appeared in dragon 302 with gromph) Just checked it, it was Dragon 302 which stated him as Div18/Acm4, while Underdrak (AFAIR) said Div16/Acm4.Originally posted by dKyros Also i began to speculate that if somehow Gandalfs staff were to be knocked out of his hands he would almost surely lose the battle since it appeared that he could only use his true power when he channeled it through his staff. I believed this because of the battle with sarumun when he lost his staff he was unable to defend himself to the unslaught of magic. Well, I begin to speculate that you know LotR only from the movies, which were so different from the true LotR in so many points, some of them important points. Such a thing never happend in the novels.
createvmind 07-27-04, 12:19 PM	Gandalf is more of a sage/advisor/contemplative/zen-like mage, not a combative one such as Gromph who has spent his entire existence fighting for his life and place of power. No way is Gandalf anywhere near Elminster, Ol EL has not only been touched by divinity but he's was an actual receptacle for most of mystra's power at one point. Gandalf simply played his role in bringing about the age of man, now had he taken the one ring then thats a whole different debate but he didnt so he too choose to pass on and relinquish whatever remaining power he had. That was what the age of man brought about for all the remaining Maiar and Istari, the end of their power and the end of the ages of magic. While they were mighty spirits in the first 3 ages they were forbidden to remain so and had to manifest in form of men and lost most of their powers. Gromph will most likely embrace some form of undeath to continue to grow in power. So full Maiar/Istari gandalf would wax Gromph, post-Maiar/Istari would get served up something awful by Gromph.........hope that clears up anything to debate about.:D
Taelohn 07-27-04, 06:30 PM	In D&D terms, I'd say Gandalf would have the quasi-deity traits. The Istari's offensive powers were more restricted than their defensive ones, so he should defend at a higher level than he attacks at. I'd suggest the HD, base saves, caster level, etc. of a 25th level character, but the base attack bonus, spells known/spells per day, etc. of a character around 13th level.
GothicDan 07-27-04, 08:11 PM	Not sure if this helps, but I believe in one of the earlier issues of Dragon, they tackled the possible spell level of Gandalf as an AD&D wizard - and it was very low. That's only by the overt magic he performed in the books, though, not any special gifts that he may have had. But that's not the point. The point is that you can't even begin to compare hardcore FR with hardcore LoTR. That's even more ridiculous than the majority of "who can kill who" posts I've seen on here, because the styles of magic were so utterly different.
createvmind 07-27-04, 09:09 PM	Ok lets really clear this up, in human form gandalf loses to gromph, if he has his full power then he is a diety wether lesser or greater doesnt count, hes a deity plain and simple. Istari TOOK on human forms but are not human and will return to Eru in the end to sing in true harmony as they tried to do in the Begining of all. Nothing wrong with younger people wondering this or that, the tolkien books are older than probably everyone on this board including the writers and makers of Dnd. So cut them a little slack and in time they will learn more of these great worlds.:D .
createvmind 07-27-04, 09:15 PM	If you want to know more other than what the movie presented then read the original book "Red Book of Westmarch" which the others were allegedly translated from. I was lucky enough to purchase the tolkien Bestiary back in 79-80 after i had the others, very imformative book. Keep reading and enjoying the fantasy world ;)
GothicDan 07-28-04, 12:12 AM	I'm amused. "Nothing wrong with younger people wondering this or that" ... I'm 19. :) Anyway. I've personally never read Tolkien's books, because I dislike his writing style. But I've purposedly found out as much about it just because I do love what he did, what he created, the theme/mood, etc. The only book I'll probably ever read is the Simlarillian. :)
The Simbul 07-28-04, 12:24 AM	Originally posted by Banpai @ the Simbul: Sorry I was wrong and you were right. Epic spellcasting is really a rare thing in the Realms, as it seems to be some kind of replacement for the spells above level 10 (IMO). [snip] The only problem i do see is that Epic Spellcsting is simly to rare in the realms. Well I am not necessarily right and you are not necessarily wrong on the possibility of him having Epic Spellcasting, it just doesnt seem very likely for most faerunian NPC's to have that feat, not only due to it being rare amoung the listed NPCs in the Epic Level Handbook, but also in that the average epic feat selection for generic epic sorcerer and epic wizard NPCs (also in the back of the Epic Handbook) do not select that feat at all, even at levels 27-30. Gromph could theoretically have the feat, it just IMO doesnt seem very likely.
GothicDan 07-28-04, 11:35 AM	The idea of Epic Spellcasting brings up a question in my mind: what epic spellcasters of the Realms do you think would have the feat at all?
The Simbul 07-29-04, 01:12 AM	The idea of Epic Spellcasting brings up a question in my mind: what epic spellcasters of the Realms do you think would have the feat at all?Netherese survivors: Telemont Tanthul (Wiz20/Sha10/Acm5 Larloch (Wiz32) Ioulaum (if he is still around, classes unknown) Although IMO they should have some of their set class levels replaced with Netherese Arcanist levels, thus Epic Spellcasting is actually gained as a class feature rather than a "feat". Elven High Mages Srinshee (Wiz30?, which may add or be substituited for Elven High Mage levels) As well as several unnamed citizens of Evermeet, Everska, and other Elven havens, since the names of most Elven High Mages is not common knowledge. The Chosen of Mystra Elminster (he should have it IMO) The Simbul (she already has it) In addition I feel the Magister should recieve the benefits of the Epic Spellcasting feat so long as they hold office. I am also of the opinion that any Chosen that qualifies should have access to the feat as a feature of the Chosen of Mystra template, whereas Chosen who have already selected the feat would have some other additional benefit to the creation and casting of epic spells compensate. All Deities with the Magic Domain* Mystra Azuth Savras Velsharoon Corellan Larethian Halani Celanil Thoth Isis Laduegar Set *assuming they can meet the prerequisites for the feat with their divine level/class builds Miscellaneous Shaan the Serpent Queen (classes unknown) King Zalathrom of Halurra Div20/Lor9 Lady Yhebruna of Rashemen Wiz12/Hth10/Clr6 Ythrazz Buvarr, founder of Thay and first Red Wizard (classes unknown)
GothicDan 07-29-04, 11:15 AM	Wonderful suggestions Simbul. A lot of those I considered myself as posting the idea. I agree with the idea of replacing Netherese Arcanist levels with some levels of Larloch, Telamont, and Ioulaum. Supposedly, Ioulaum was slain by a cabal of alhoon, but that sounds a bit hard to swallow. Do you think Srinshee has gained a few levels by now? King Zalathorn - yes. Considering that Halruaa was founded by fleeing survivors of Netheril, I would think that it might be possible for Zalathorn to have some Netherese Arcanist levels, too, even if it would change his statted levels. You would also have to take into considering the other Elders of Halruaa, who are sure to have at least a handful in their 20 levels. I hope the new South set that comes out details a few more Elders. Lady Yhelbruna was cool, and I wish they would have given us a bit more detail on her. Though, I suppose, she's supposed to be very secretive, so that only adds to her mystery. Ythazz Buvarr was the Zulkir of Necromancy, if I remember correctly, and a demilich. He will soon make a very, very scary figure one day soon, I think. I think Elminster should have it, too, though I don't know about ALL of the Chosen of Mystra having it. Don't they have enough power already with their template? How about any of the Twisted Rune? I could have seen Sammaster as having Epic Spellcasting, too, when he was alive, what with all of the magical research and creation he did, and the fact that he even managed to wound an avatar of Lathander and live for more than say, a round. :)
createvmind 07-29-04, 01:12 PM	If any of these Npcs you are playing in the year of wild magic or rogue dragon then they definitely should have gained some new feat, class, lvl....etc.......... DM;s call of course. Exception would be Telemount since his stats are pretty current, he is seeking artifacts around faerun so maybe he will acquire some baubles here or there.....nothing thayan likely......they seem to have much disdain for the red cowls ;)
GothicDan 07-29-04, 04:08 PM	The majority of the above mentioned NPCs have already been statted in 3.X; at least, levels and classes were given for many/most of them.
Mumm-Ra 07-30-04, 07:14 AM	The high lord planner of Deep Imaskar should have epic spellcasting too, since the city's seal smacks of epic magic. The senior members of the twisted rune (rhangaun, kartak) ought to have it as well.
Frostbite_Ravenheart 07-31-04, 06:32 PM	I suggest dKyros that you go to the link in my thread. It shall explain all your questions there about who Gandalf really was. -Frosty
Tarus 08-01-04, 10:11 PM	Originally posted by createvmind Gandalf is more of a sage/advisor/contemplative/zen-like mage, not a combative one such as Gromph who has spent his entire existence fighting for his life and place of power. No way is Gandalf anywhere near Elminster, Ol EL has not only been touched by divinity but he's was an actual receptacle for most of mystra's power at one point. Gandalf simply played his role in bringing about the age of man, now had he taken the one ring then thats a whole different debate but he didnt so he too choose to pass on and relinquish whatever remaining power he had. That was what the age of man brought about for all the remaining Maiar and Istari, the end of their power and the end of the ages of magic. While they were mighty spirits in the first 3 ages they were forbidden to remain so and had to manifest in form of men and lost most of their powers. Gromph will most likely embrace some form of undeath to continue to grow in power. So full Maiar/Istari gandalf would wax Gromph, post-Maiar/Istari would get served up something awful by Gromph.........hope that clears up anything to debate about.:D So you're saying that if we lobotomized Gandalf, tie him up, blindfold him, cut out his tongue, and drop him down a deep well then Gromph could possibly defeat him?
createvmind 08-01-04, 10:47 PM	Uuuuuuuuuum.......:Shakes head yes, Answers NO and shrugs shoulders.....I dont know.:D
WizO_BigSister 08-02-04, 08:17 AM	Originally posted by Tarus So you're saying that if we lobotomized Gandalf, tie him up, blindfold him, cut out his tongue, and drop him down a deep well then Gromph could possibly defeat him? Don't we have to remove his Ring of Power as well? ;)
createvmind 08-02-04, 05:34 PM	Ring of power? How do you think he paid for those shiny white new threads he got........had to pawn the ring;)
Telagaunt 08-02-04, 05:53 PM	Originally posted by The Simbul Netherese survivors: Telemont Tanthul (Wiz20/Sha10/Acm5 Larloch (Wiz32) Ioulaum (if he is still around, classes unknown) [/B] Those are just some of the famous NPC Netherese Archwizards. Greenwood was quoted once as to saying there are still a number of Netherese Archwizards in the Realms who are just hiding about, trying to pass as a normal person. Infact I think he hinted there were 2 NPC's that would be revealed as Netherese in due time. But Telamont and Larloch definitely are deserving of epic spellcasting feats and/or Arcanist PrC. Also, I think a few Deep Imaskari could possess certain epic spellcasting feats. Maybe the High Lord Planner at the least.