Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Matrix Sorcica 04-12-05, 07:14 AM	Reading through the FRCS, this is bothering me more and more. Fx., the king of Cormyr. Why didn’t someone just raise/true resurrect him after the fight with the dragon? Or used a wish. I mean, he was the king. In a setting with über-powerful characters, it makes no sense that the wasn’t possible. I honestly don’t think the argument, that the powerful spellcasters are to busy etc. applies here. He was the king! And then the princess dies in childbirth…. Don’t tell me there wasn’t a 11th lvl cleric in the kingdom of Cormyr that could cast heal and/or raise dead…. Why didn’t any of the powerful seven sisters wish for Sylune’s return? Or Elminster? Or Khelben? Or… Why didn’t the elves raise Queen Amlaruils king-husband after the assassination? Now, I haven’t read any of the novels and don’t intend to. If there’s a reason for not raising the dead given in the novels, could someone please give a clue (without discussing the novels themselves)? You see, this is something I miss in FR. Some thought to the fact that very powerful characters only stay dead because of old age, or because their soul gets trapped. Thanks.
maynardjkeenan 04-12-05, 07:31 AM	King Azoun didn't want to be resurrected. He was old died a "good death". Fighting a dragon and all. As for the others, dunno. Elminster don't go around ressing famous people, he's got better things to do. I'm about to mention Elminster and novels, but that's not allowed here..
Matrix Sorcica 04-12-05, 07:49 AM	Elminster don't go around ressing famous people, he's got better things to do. I'm about to mention Elminster and novels, but that's not allowed here.. This is the standard reply when it comes to Elminster and other powerful good characters. It just doesn't make sense when someone really noteworthy and more or less freiends of said powerful characters meets untimely ends. Besides, what if yoyu have powerful PCs and one of them wishes for the return of X powerful npc? Besides asking about the player's mental health, the situation would be the same, as if a npc had done the wishing: The dead fella is back, and I think any high magic world should take this into consideration... :)
Chosen of Bane 04-12-05, 07:57 AM	Yes, Azound and Tanalasta both made it clear that they didn't want to be raised. Plus, if they just went around raising kings than there would be the problem of who the rightful king is. If you raise Azoun and then True Resurrect one of the older kings than who is the king? Plus, if they are happy in the after life why would they want to come back? A dead character can always refuse to come back. As for the Elf King of Evermeet. Elves think raising the dead is unnatural and won't due it. Before you all jump at me and site the Last Mythal, that was a unique instance. It is stated many times in novels that Elves due not believe in raising the dead. Another thing to consider. I think too many RPers play clerics like they are wizards...prepare and cast without regard for deities desires. Clerics need there spells granted from a god. Why would a god grant a cleric to resurrect someone just because they were king? Royalty doesn't mean anything to the gods. King Azoun wasn't a devout follower of any god. I know in games I run, a god will only grant resurrection to a follower of that said deity, unless the person does something extraordinary for the god's interests. For example, if a PC who worships Tymora does something heroic and helps to preserve the weave somehow than I would allow a cleric of Mystra to raise that character. I don't just allow a PC to walk into a random temple with a plethora of gold and resurrect people. The cleric/deity would need a reason to bring that person back, and unless it is a cleric of Nobanion I don't think being royalty is good enough. How many 17th+ level clerics of Nobanion are walking around anyway with True Res. Plus, wish spells drain experience. Non-game mechanically, that can be described as sacrificing some of your life force to cast the spell. The character, Elminster included, would need a darn good reason to do this. Plus, Elminster has been around for a long long long time, he can see the big picture. Will it really be all that helpful to the realms to bring back an aging monarch? Cormyr will be fine even if Azoun isn't broght back. In Elminster's life he has seen MANY very good people die, if he brought back everyone with wish spells he would be using a LOT of wish spells.
Matrix Sorcica 04-12-05, 08:06 AM	Another thing to consider. I think too many RPers play clerics like they are wizards...prepare and cast without regard for deities desires. Clerics need there spells granted from a god. Why would a god grant a cleric to resurrect someone just because they were king? Royalty doesn't mean anything to the gods. King Azoun wasn't a devout follower of any god. No, but he was a king, and his death has cast Cormyr into chaos. So okay, maybe he didn't want to get ressurrected, but there are many others that probably would, if given the chance. I know in games I run, a god will only grant resurrection to a follower of that said deity, unless the person does something extraordinary for the god's interests. For example, if a PC who worships Tymora does something heroic and helps to preserve the weave somehow than I would allow a cleric of Mystra to raise that character. I don't just allow a PC to walk into a random temple with a plethora of gold and resurrect people. The cleric/deity would need a reason to bring that person back, and unless it is a cleric of Nobanion I don't think being royalty is good enough. How many 17th+ level clerics of Nobanion are walking around anyway with True Res. Well, good points. But this is just how you play it. There's nothing in the corebook or the FRCS that says it has to be so.... And speaking of clerics and such. If someone powerful good dies, I think that quite a few of the good aligned faiths in FR would raise that person. Why not? If the common goal is good. And most often, these people died fighting evil... And there only needs to be one cleric of 17th lvl (and that's only if true res. is the only thing that will work). A few divinations, a teleport, a lot of gold, a teleport more and thee you go. :) And there's also a number of 17th lvl mages that could be paid to cast wish.
Slime Lord 04-12-05, 09:35 AM	Well, it's simple really. All powerful characters, or anyone in that matter, understands death is a part of life, whether you die naturally or by a god. Characters like The Chosen of Mystra, The King, and others understand this. They all feel pain, but they understand the order of life. Death can be prolonged, but not avoided for ever. Even Gods have to eventually die (ask Mystra, she's died three times and will again, only to be restored.) So, that is why they didn't. It is what it is and they won't change lifes order. Same goes for our World as well.
Slime Lord 04-12-05, 10:58 AM	Well, it's simple really. All powerful characters, or anyone in that matter, understands death is a part of life, whether you die naturally or by a god. Characters like The Chosen of Mystra, The King, and others understand this. They all feel pain, but they understand the order of life. Death can be prolonged, but not avoided for ever. Even Gods have to eventually die (ask Mystra, she's died three times and will again, only to be restored.) So, that is why they didn't. It is what it is and they won't change lifes order. Same goes for our World as well. I quote my self above to you Matrix to explain why these characters stay dead. And as a warning, no more dancing on the edge of Flaming/Useless Remarks you two...
Kuje31 04-12-05, 11:59 AM	Ed told us why Selune couldn't be brought back. Mystra or Azuth denied her that request. As for why it doesn't happen more often. The others said it, divine spells come from a deity. Deity says no. It's just not that common in FR when there are millions of inhabitants on Faerun alone. Azoun and Tanalasta had a "will" that said do not bring us back. Besides if they are brought back the evils that died with them might return also because thier bloods and guts and etc are all mixed together.
Slime Lord 04-12-05, 12:36 PM	I do have a question reguarding a sister... Why is it Sylune was named after Selune? Both could be pronounced the same way easily.
SpeedyMunky 04-12-05, 12:56 PM	Another reason you may not see so many people being raised is that 'good' people are more accepting of thier fate. If they die, they die and they are happy to have served thier cause, and are happy to be with thier god... they are also less inclined to mess with the forces of nature for thier own benefit. 'Evil' characters on the other hand, regularly attempt things like; - finding an artifact that makes them live forever; - becoming a lich/vampire/whathaveyou; - sacrificing young people and stealing thier essence; - using spells like clone (one very notable bad guy had a slight mishap with that one) to ensure they live on..... of course a lot of evil type characters are justifiable fearful of what will happen to them when they show up at thier gods doorstep after having failed on some task.
BrianCritchley 04-12-05, 02:41 PM	also ressurection isn't all that common because the soul has to want to come back. and considering that the afterlife basicly is gonna consist of a heaven crafted to what you see as your ideals. I suspect very few souls wish to return.
Chosen of Bane 04-12-05, 02:48 PM	also ressurection isn't all that common because the soul has to want to come back. and considering that the afterlife basicly is gonna consist of a heaven crafted to what you see as your ideals. I suspect very few souls wish to return. This is a very important point that many gamers completely ignore. I feel very fortunate that my group of players are all mature and are good role-players. I have had players not want to bring their character back because he wouldn't want to leave the realm of his deity. From most of the posts on these boards I guess my players are a rarity. Whenever somebody dies we pay for a cleric to cast "Speak with dead" first to see if they want to come back, better that then waste the thousands on diamonds just to have the soul tell you "no thanks".
BrianCritchley 04-12-05, 02:59 PM	This is a very important point that many gamers completely ignore. I feel very fortunate that my group of players are all mature and are good role-players. I have had players not want to bring their character back because he wouldn't want to leave the realm of his deity. From most of the posts on these boards I guess my players are a rarity. Whenever somebody dies we pay for a cleric to cast "Speak with dead" first to see if they want to come back, better that then waste the thousands on diamonds just to have the soul tell you "no thanks". my party has had 2 deaths, (they lead a charmed life) in both cases the player decided his charwould not wish to be ressurected.
Matrix Sorcica 04-12-05, 05:29 PM	Ok guys, I see your points. But still, I only think that the active decision on the dead persons part is an argument that holds water. The 'deities don't bring back just anybody' won't stop wishes. So.... But. I've got my answers, I think. There is basically only the roleplaying to account for the lack of raises, if I may say it bluntly. :) That's okay. Thanks for replying guys. :)
RecklessFable 04-12-05, 06:30 PM	Ok guys, I see your points. But still, I only think that the active decision on the dead persons part is an argument that holds water. The 'deities don't bring back just anybody' won't stop wishes. So.... But. I've got my answers, I think. There is basically only the roleplaying to account for the lack of raises, if I may say it bluntly. :) That's okay. Thanks for replying guys. :) In the groups I play and DM for, raising is generally limited by roleplay. Only the devout even have a chance and even they might not be allowed. Also the Cleric doing the raising must be of a allied diety for it to even work. But yeah, at the end of the day, 3.5 leveling is so fast and PC power levels are so high that you can achieve Epic in a few months of in-game time. In novels it generally takes years. Except for the uber NPCs in the novels, most areas shouldn't even have high enough level Clerics to do the job. Cormyr has the resources, but in the final novel Vangy wouldn't even risk using a Wish, the reason for which is discussed. Besides, it makes for weak drama if everyone can be raised all the time, like when a certain sister who is married to a certain black-staffed magi has him build her new bodies when she gets disintegrated...
Krash 04-12-05, 07:51 PM	Ok guys, I see your points. But still, I only think that the active decision on the dead persons part is an argument that holds water. The 'deities don't bring back just anybody' won't stop wishes. So.... But. I've got my answers, I think. There is basically only the roleplaying to account for the lack of raises, if I may say it bluntly. :) That's okay. Thanks for replying guys. :) And if I can be blunt as well, you're looking at the situation with the PH firmly clasped in your right hand and quoting levels and rules. That's all well and good, but there is something far more important than levels and the rules, and that is the story. The story, whether it applies to PCs or NPCs, should be the touchstone for all events and happenings in a campaign and the guiding force behind them. Therefore "the lack of raises" arises because you are looking at the Realms through the oily lens of D&D game mechanics. Just because something is possible under the 'rules' doesn't mean it adds anything to the game (and in fact can detract from it). Fans of the Realms have long complained that some iconic NPCs are getting very long in the tooth considering it is now 20 years since they were first introduced. When WotC culls a few, there are cries as to why they weren't immediately brought back. There's just no pleasing anybody these days. :) Oh, and can someone please put the "Why didn't Azoun IV or Sylune get resurrected" stuff in the FAQ. This is about the 5th time this topic has hit the Boards in the last year. -- George Krashos
warlockco 04-12-05, 09:49 PM	Ok guys, I see your points. But still, I only think that the active decision on the dead persons part is an argument that holds water. The 'deities don't bring back just anybody' won't stop wishes. So.... Mystra says NO. There is a deity that does have control on Wishes. :D
Doctor_Jello 04-13-05, 02:34 AM	I play a cleric and I have enough trouble scrounging money, eventhough she is level 70. Unless the DM wishes and allows them to but WHY???? Thats like resurrecting Karsus....... just so you can mind rape him so you can get all of his knowledge or True Dominate him. It makes no sense, especially in the realms. Why in the realms would they want to do something like that. It is mainly for PCs. you can spend mucho gold on it. But me, I will keep it. Its another Ioun Stone to float around my head. My characters goal. Get more Ioun stones than Larloch.
Razz 04-13-05, 03:00 AM	I play a cleric and I have enough trouble scrounging money, eventhough she is level 70. Unless the DM wishes and allows them to but WHY???? Thats like resurrecting Karsus....... just so you can mind rape him so you can get all of his knowledge or True Dominate him. It makes no sense, especially in the realms. Why in the realms would they want to do something like that. It is mainly for PCs. you can spend mucho gold on it. But me, I will keep it. Its another Ioun Stone to float around my head. My characters goal. Get more Ioun stones than Larloch. Dude, level 70? You're practically a demigod, if not already a deity LOL. How'd you get that high? What the hell was challenging you at that level? Other deities? Cosmic beings? Just surprised, not trying to sound sarcastic or anything. My players can barely get past level 10 much less get to 70
Myssa Rei 04-13-05, 03:28 AM	And if I can be blunt as well, you're looking at the situation with the PH firmly clasped in your right hand and quoting levels and rules. That's all well and good, but there is something far more important than levels and the rules, and that is the story. The story, whether it applies to PCs or NPCs, should be the touchstone for all events and happenings in a campaign and the guiding force behind them. Therefore "the lack of raises" arises because you are looking at the Realms through the oily lens of D&D game mechanics. Just because something is possible under the 'rules' doesn't mean it adds anything to the game (and in fact can detract from it). George got it right. Just because it says in the rules that it can be done doesn't mean that it should be done. There are certain (game-world) politics and ethical problems involved, too. Some cultures (like the elves) frown on such 'abuse', while others have major misgivings. I think I recall someone (Kuje, I think) citing that conversation between two priests, where they were arguing the merits of resurrecting a revered public figure. One seemed to be open to the idea, but the other argued that it was unethical, for the simple reason that it would be depriving the person of their promised 'afterlife'. The 'raise' and 'resurrect' spells were put in the rule books for players who've become too attached to their characters to just let them die. This isn't necessarily a bad thing, mind you, but from a story's standpoint... well...
Corellon 04-13-05, 03:30 AM	interesting ha? :) but i wonder what was the deity of lvl70 cleric? (in my opinion technically clerics cannot became 35 . lvls, their gods take them after these levels, maybe wizards can do that not clerics)
SammasterT 04-13-05, 10:50 AM	Given the human tendancy to want to keep a good leader in power forever, even long after he's drooling in a cup, lost all of his teeth, and forgotten his own name, just for the luck of continuing to have him there, I'm surprised that we don't see more lich-kings, leaders that have consumed umpteen potions of longevity, and of course, leaders who have been resurrrected. Oh, but of course. Its far more important that everyone get a turn now, right? Don't want any upset royals. Afterall, that is where serpents get their venom from! ....... or is that angry witch doctors?!?!?
Meta_FR_DM 04-13-05, 08:57 PM	The Res. rules are in the game so players have a chance to recover favorite characters from death. It'd be a bad design philosophy to co-opt this game-mechanics philosophy into the setting itself, which isn't build just for playing DnD. The Realms are more than that. Many fiction writers recognize this and so 'don't go there.' It's one o' those invisible lines that you can't see unless you look everywhere except where it's at. ...and so the Realms doesn't operate with DnD rules as its backbone. 'Course a DM could well raise whatever known NPC of wealth and power he wanted, if it suited his game. Dave M.
warlockco 04-14-05, 01:03 AM	Dude, level 70? You're practically a demigod, if not already a deity LOL. How'd you get that high? What the hell was challenging you at that level? Other deities? Cosmic beings? Just surprised, not trying to sound sarcastic or anything. My players can barely get past level 10 much less get to 70 If you been playing since 1st Edition AD&D or even just plain old D&D, you can have some pretty high level characters. I myself have a stable of several 50+ characters. But then again, in High School, I had a group that burned right though Temple of Elemental Evil in one weekend. In one of my games, my players are ready 25th level and that was from starting at 3rd level. As to what one can be challenged by at 70th level? There are plenty of things, Fiends and othe Outsiders, Avatars of Gods meddling around in the lives of the PCs, being given quests to fulfil by various Gods..... the list is practically endless. Just takes a good DM to live up to the challenge is all.
Derren S. 04-14-05, 02:41 AM	Famous characters don't get raised because the authors of novels (where this things happen) think raising is cheap and ruins the story. And NPCs don't get raised in official material because the designers want to have a medival world with a succession to the throne and don't take magic into account. There is no reason and logic behind that. The designers simply don't take magic into account when making the world. Magic is just a add on which is slapped on after everything else is finished. Thats the same reason why there are still castles in FR.
Meta_FR_DM 04-14-05, 02:49 AM	There is no reason and logic behind that. The designers simply don't take magic into account when making the world. Magic is just a add on which is slapped on after everything else is finished. Thats the same reason why there are still castles in FR. That's got to be the most uninformed statement I've ever seen about the Realms. Which is saying something. And by the way I say it with no offense intended. The statement just doesn't fit what's known about how the Forgotten Realms was made. Dave M.
Derren S. 04-14-05, 03:01 AM	That's got to be the most uninformed statement I've ever seen about the Realms. Which is saying something. And by the way I say it with no offense intended. The statement just doesn't fit what's known about how the Forgotten Realms was made. Dave M. So? Then where does magic influence the every day live in the realms? No where. Oh yes, you have some mythals but that are just some magical shields not more. Imo the FR was designed by taking existing cultures, placing them on a map and when everything was finished adding magic, wizards and a old, now destroyed, super magical kingdom. But when magic is so prevelant in the FR why is there so few magic in every day life? Look at Eberron. There magic really impacts the world and is logical. Why don't we see things like this in the FR? Because thje wizards are far layzier than their Eberron counterparts? Can you answer me why kings don't always keep a clone handy, why big cities aren't connected by teleportation circles, why farms don't have Unseen Servants doing the work, etc.? That are all things a good king with a lot of wizard/cleric follower would comission (Which basically screams Cormyr).
Meta_FR_DM 04-14-05, 03:14 AM	Wait a second. At first you said, ..the designers don't take magic into account when creating the world.. Whereas now your prefacing the same statement with, in my opinion. So which is it? Do you yourself know, without doubt and for an absolute fact, what the game authors do and don't do? Have you asked them or supervised their work? Or are you so absolutely convinced the Realms don't make sense that the only possible way is for your subjective assumption to be true? Either way, you're wrong. I'd send you to Candlekeep.com to disabuse you of your incorrect assumptions, but it seems to be down at the moment. Instead, find a post by Kuje31. Look in his sig for a link to his website, then download the file there. You'll find the answer to your questions there, methinks. Then get back to us. If nothing else you'll be richer in Realmslore than you could ever hope to be otherwise. Then take the time to thank Kuje31 profusely for having the wisdom and kindness to create and maintain that file. Dave M.
Krash 04-14-05, 09:38 AM	But when magic is so prevelant in the FR why is there so few magic in every day life? Look at Eberron. There magic really impacts the world and is logical. Why don't we see things like this in the FR? Because thje wizards are far layzier than their Eberron counterparts? You are absolutely correct here. The Realms and its portrayal of magic in everyday life pales in comparison to Eberron. If I was you, I'd give up on the Realms completely and focus all your attention on Eberron. That way, the Realms wouldn't upset you so much. -- George Krashos
Garen Thal 04-14-05, 01:26 PM	Having answered this question a hundred times already, I can offer an explanation for why Azoun and Tanalasta, specifically, were not raised or resurrected following their deaths. -Since the reign of Draxius--called the Neverdying for his extremely long reign, although he did, in fact, die--it has been considered anathema to magically prolong or restore the life (read: use longevity or resurrection magics of any sort) of a member of the Cormyrean royalty. [Cloning of a still-living monarch is a possibility, except when the royal vaults are raided for the necessary samples, as they were in Cormyr: A Novel.] This law/tradition is moot when the death is private and unseen--rumors always persist of this sort of thing--but the deaths of Azoun and Tanalasta were matters most public. -Even if it were legal to raise a monarch or Crown heir, the choice of which church to turn to perform the casting would create all manner of political headaches. -Even if it were legal and the church could be chosen without too much fuss, the deaths of Azoun and Tanalasta were died to the destruction of two great threats to Cormyr. Their resurrection would likely have restored the danger to their kingdom. -Azoun's resurrection had the additional complications of a) the wild magic surging around him and b) his unwillingness to return. The old lion was tired, and fully prepared to lay down his life at the end of a long, prosperous reign. Tanalasta's resurrection also had a complication, in that a priest of Tempus witnessed her death from combat. She died a "good death," and the church of Tempus would oppose her resurrection, by a priest of any god.
Preternatural 04-14-05, 01:38 PM	On that whole Eberron magic vs Faerûn magic, I thought it was abundant (but mild) magic vs high magic. Eberron seems to have very few epic level characters, while FR has a great deal more. Eberron does seem to have more 9-5 blue collar magic-users pumping out items, all those artificers and magetech. In the Realms, magic seems a bit more esoteric, not as accessible to the common people, maybe magic users are just more rare, but when there is one, they get the chance to become powerful given time and luck, else they become Illithid food. Also, the Realms had a sort of magical apocolypse with Netheril and what not. Maybe they were on a route closer to Eberron's abundant magic world, but that ended when the rules on magic use were implemented/revised. And finally, when the Realms came about in the 80s, the anime and Final Fantasy craze was still a few years off... :: Ducks and runs for cover ::
Derren S. 04-14-05, 01:59 PM	On that whole Eberron magic vs Faerûn magic, I thought it was abundant (but mild) magic vs high magic. Eberron seems to have very few epic level characters, while FR has a great deal more. Eberron does seem to have more 9-5 blue collar magic-users pumping out items, all those artificers and magetech. In the Realms, magic seems a bit more esoteric, not as accessible to the common people, maybe magic users are just more rare, but when there is one, they get the chance to become powerful given time and luck, else they become Illithid food. FR has still a high number of spellcaster but absolutly no indication that the magical "technology" is anywhere near a similar level of Eberron (which by are logical consequences of prevelant magic). Not even nobles and royality use magic except for combat purpose and that is basically all what magic is in FR. Its a weapon and not a tool like in Eberron which would be far more logical.
Preternatural 04-14-05, 02:16 PM	FR has still a high number of spellcaster but absolutly no indication that the magical "technology" is anywhere near a similar level of Eberron (which by are logical consequences of prevelant magic). Not even nobles and royality use magic except for combat purpose and that is basically all what magic is in FR. Its a weapon and not a tool like in Eberron which would be far more logical. Like today with nuclear technology... We have thousands of nuclear weapons, but far fewer nuclear power plants (per capita that we could have), even when there is an energy shortage going on in the country (the world even). Many people are still too stubborn and too afraid (possibly for good reason) to use nuclear power. It really all comes down to flavor of the setting. Culture has a lot to do with it. Eberron has cultures that like to use abundant magic, FR doesn't. Just like I know people who don't have TVs in their houses, cause they don't believe that it helps them in anyway, or people who pay for internet access, but use it only for two hours a month.
Derren S. 04-14-05, 02:33 PM	Do you really belive that? Would the citizens and traders in Silverymoon really be to afraid to simly walk through an teleportation circle to Waterdeep instead of traveling through orc infested lands? Imo no. Same with other application. Its not culture, its short sigthed and unlogical magic use. And you nuclear power plant example is scewed. We don't need more nuclear power plants because we have enough electricity and they cost a fortune. Not because people are afraid of nuclear power. You can't say that from the FR. Most people would certainly need some magical items/spells which will make their lives easier.
Preternatural 04-14-05, 03:17 PM	Do you really belive that? Would the citizens and traders in Silverymoon really be to afraid to simly walk through an teleportation circle to Waterdeep instead of traveling through orc infested lands? Imo no. Same with other application. Its not culture, its short sigthed and unlogical magic use. There are some portals linking places. At the height of Cormanthor, Myth Drannor had portals to Silverymoon and Ascalhorn, that's at least a thousand miles, through monster infested mountains and the Anauroch Desert. There are portals from Evermeet to Everaska and Waterdeep, as well as many places, but for reasons of isolation, they're opened only to authorized use I would imagine. Why they aren't used now, I'm not entirely sure, but times have changed. The Army of Darkness almost marched through the portals to Silverymoon if the Nameless chosen hadn't nearly died to stop them. I'm sure there are other reasons, my Realmslore is modest at best. Another thing could be economics, I don't know what it takes to run these fancy magical devices. Certainly, if you have Teleportation circles, or Portals, it would make the lightning rail obsolete, unless it costs a lot more to use the former two than the latter. We could all be travelling on Concordes, but they're expensive, don't provide as much of an advantage over conventional planes, and they're noisy. A lot of the times, when people see that something isn't broken, they don't fix it. And you nuclear power plant example is scewed. We don't need more nuclear power plants because we have enough electricity and they cost a fortune. Not because people are afraid of nuclear power. Really ... A company was almost done constructing the Shoreham nuclear power plant in New York. Constant protests from the local residents ensured that it never became operational, and today, decades later, it remains an abandoned hulk of concrete and metal. Conversely, we have countries like France, which has a significant portion of its electricity come from nuclear power. They use modern technology to reduce any risks and do not hold as much of a stigma against it as Americans do. Here in the US, I believe there have been no new plants in the last one or two decades. That actually goes for regular power plants as well I think. As for plenty of electricity, I'm sure what happened in California a few years ago was nothing. Those rolling blackouts during the hot summer months were a sure sign of plenty of electricity coming from our aging over taxed power plants. We don't have enough, however we are getting by decently, but if anything happens, we'll have a blackout like the one that saw half the East Coast ground to a halt two or three years ago. With gas prices they way that are, electricity costs are rising as well. If there is a demand, and not enough supply, that is a shortage. Necessity drives innovation, and fear drives us back a few steps. You can't say that from the FR. Most people would certainly need some magical items/spells which will make their lives easier. There were the old mythals of Cormanthor that allowed its citizens to fly, put out fires, keep out monsters, amongst other things. Thay uses magic to bring rain to its otherwise arid farm lands. The Shades tried to melt the high ice to transform a desert into seaside property. Halruaa uses divination to stop threats to the nation rather than duke it out with the old fashion fireball. (How's that for Intel?) Then there's the question of magical development, akin to our modern technological development. Places like Myth Drannor, Evermeet, Halruaa, Thay etc. are magic heavy nations, and yes, I stand corrected, nations such as these do have numerous spellcasters. And they do use magic to improve the lives of their people. In the case of Thay, they use magic to oppress their people, just like how some nations do the same with technology to keep themselves in power. Then there are nations with less magic and they get along the best they can. Just as we have third world nations, where the roads are unpaved, the farming is done by manual and animal labor, and something like a TV is a wonderous thing, where whoever has a TV or radio or car holds lots of prestige. Back to culture for a bit. The Amish still use horse drawn carriages rather than cars. Wouldn't you think that a nice mechanized tractor to tilt their fields would be more efficient than that old mule? Sure, but they choose to stick with what they have and they've gotten along for the last few centuries that way.
Derren S. 04-14-05, 03:33 PM	Ah, so all of FRs population are the equivalent of Amish people, even Gond and Mystra worshiper. And when you have the choice between a concord and a horse cart, what do you think most people especially merchants would use for transportation? And it doesn't even have to be big portals. Where are the elemental powered smiths, farms with unseen servant support? Don't you think a king would leave such a huge advantage like magical boosted economy untapped? Certainly no. And give me a reason why kings wouldn't employ clone spells for safty? There can be individual cases where you can find reasons why not, but not for the whole. The only reason this isn't done is because it wouldn't fit into the theme which is a traditional medival one which doesn't take all the posibilities of magic into account like Eberron does.
Preternatural 04-14-05, 05:03 PM	Ah, so all of FRs population are the equivalent of Amish people, even Gond and Mystra worshiper. Please don't over generalize my generalization. (Does that even make sense :confused: ) I'm merely pointing out that culture can have a lot to do with how people do things. And what if some people choose to not use magic or technology. There is the Forsaker and the Occult Slayer in the splat books. Some people just don't like magic, like how some people just don't like technology. And despite the prevalence of tech in our modern world, there are still a lot of people who don't know how to use a computer, etc. While on the other hand, there are people who love technology and can't get by without it, just like magic in a fantasy setting. Take magic away from Netheril and you know what happened. There are places in the realms that rely heavily on magic. Shade without magic is just another pile of rocks falling from the sky, Thay without magic is going to have starvation on its hands, not to mention a very happy Aglarond, Rasheman, and Mulhorand. And when you have the choice between a concord and a horse cart, what do you think most people especially merchants would use for transportation? How people transport things depends on what it is and how much each available mode of transportation costs. You're not going to transport a few baskets of fruit on a Concorde, but you might fly a heart to someone waiting for a transplant. Economics does apply to magic, e.g. an identify spell costs 100 gp. How many commoners do you think can afford that to identify something they found in their attic? In such a cast you go find someone with levels in expert or bard or some such and get it appraised. Similar things apply to other magical innovations. Eberron seems to have made it so that their mage tech stuff is affordable, maybe FR hasn't. Well, in that case, maybe Eberron magic is more advanced than FR magic. And it doesn't even have to be big portals. Where are the elemental powered smiths, farms with unseen servant support? Don't you think a king would leave such a huge advantage like magical boosted economy untapped? Certainly no. The magic heavy nations of FR probably have their equivalents, Halruaa with airships, etc. The question is availability. I wouldn't be surprised if an enterprising Zulkir of Thay used some undead to help with farming (question is, would you eat the food?). Forget the Amish cultural analogy. Let's take one of the most modern and supposedly open minded regions on our current Earth, Europe. Many European nations refuse to import genetically engineered grains and foodstuff from the US. Even aside from Europe, third world nations with starving populations refuse to take these so called Frankenfoods from the US. Are these people stupid, no, of course not. They just prefer not to utilize this state of the art, cutting edge agricultural method based on their understandings and their personal beliefs. The same can apply to magic. Where did the rain come from that watered the Thayan crops? Create water spell? Which deity granted that prayer? An evil deity, eww, how disgusting, it's probably the sweat that god builds up after slaughtering a whole village. Did they gather the rain water from other parts of the world, that's unethical, they made innocent regions experience potentially fatal drought. I'm not going to buy Thayan produce. Their undead armies help on the farms during peace time, that is absolutely gross, who knows where these oranges have been. I'm never eating food exported from Thay. There are people who prefer to ride a bike or walk rather than use a car. There are people afraid of planes and refuse to go on them. Technology isn't the solution to everything, neither is magic. Also, from the looks of Cormyr and similar nations, they don't seem to be as high up there as Thay and Halruaa in terms of pure magic use. Sure Cormyr has War Wizards, but they're WAR Wizards. It's like asking the military, "Why can't you guys use your fancy ships and planes to ferry people to work during morning rush hour." Surely I would be able to visit some friends in California flying from New York every day if I can take an SR-71 Blackbird to visit them, the trip is only less than an hour. But that isn't very feasible is it? Some nations just don't have the resources to pull off this abundant magic thing. And give me a reason why kings wouldn't employ clone spells for safty? Last I checked, in the real world, most developed countries have laws against cloning. It is highly unethical. If you're a LG (or even any non-evil) king, why would you clone yourself. Sure for an evil ruler or mage it's great, but even then, the whole Manshoon wars ordeal shows you how troublesome it can be. There can be individual cases where you can find reasons why not, but not for the whole. The only reason this isn't done is because it wouldn't fit into the theme which is a traditional medival one which doesn't take all the posibilities of magic into account like Eberron does. Right, FR has a medieval feel, and Eberron has a noirish turn of the century feel accomplished by magic. And that's part of the reason why things are the way they are. But to say that it's illogical not to use magic everywhere, that's just not true. People do a lot of illogical things. A lot of it is personal, and even societal preference. To say that FR has so much magic and doesn't use it isn't correct. We have seen that where abundant magic is available, in places such as Halruaa, Thay, and Cormanthor it is used. In the form of mythals, mageforming, airships, portals etc. It approaches a level of use about as much as in Eberron. However, other places don't have as much magic and can't implement the things that abundant magic would do.
Cristos Grimblade 04-16-05, 11:56 AM	I get what Matrix is asking, and my answer really comes in two parts. The first part is for the sake of the stories, the death of Azoun IV creates both more opportunities for novels and adventures for those playing the game. Resurrecting Azoun would not only go against his wishes, therefore making it impossible to res him, but also denies the polictical intrigue found within a chaotic government. On the flip side, if the kingdom I loved and helped stabilize was on the brink of collapse and corruption, then I would want to be raised again, if only to help restore stability within the kingdom. Once that is achieved, I would want to 'sleep' once more. The game ideas for such a quest are quite plausible really for doing such a thing. Play it as such if you so desire. As to the question of Resurrection and such, I run a homebrewed world where there has been only ONE known case of raising a dead person. Such an act should be used sparingly, in my case, if someone dies fulfilling their destiny, they cannot be raised period. They go to their afterlife and nothing can bring them back. The one who was raised is central to my story, thus his destiny is yet to be fulfilled. Of course my world is relatively young, roughly two thousand years give or take and never has seen a massive world encompassing conflict like the one I have waiting in the wings. Matrix, if you feel raising a character would help the story along, or create game plots, by all means, proceed. But never let raising and resurrection become commonplace, otherwise, what do the PC's have to be afraid of?
Derren S. 04-16-05, 12:03 PM	Its the same as with the FR, what matters more story (no raising) or logic (raising, cloning etc.)?
Kuje31 04-16-05, 12:22 PM	Its the same as with the FR, what matters more story (no raising) or logic (raising, cloning etc.)? Story, always. Rules are guidelines only they DO NOT have to be used because story trumps rules, always. This is how FR was launched and created and WOTC has started to move back towards that.
Cristos Grimblade 04-16-05, 12:27 PM	And the DM trumps the story, always.
Derren S. 04-16-05, 12:35 PM	Story, always. Rules are guidelines only they DO NOT have to be used because story trumps rules, always. This is how FR was launched and created and WOTC has started to move back towards that. I never said rules I said logic. For example the PCs commited a horrible crime, got caught. Logically they would be executed but for sake of the story you let them go with a fine and a quest. Thats the sort of things I speak off. The PCs killed a king in a magical kingdom. Logically the king should simply be ressurcted if he didn't even had a clone. But that would ruin the story.
Faraer 04-16-05, 12:43 PM	Yes, of course the story is what's important. But the Realms is set up in order to best tell a great many stories, and its logic has been worked out in extraordinary detail in support of dramatically interesting outcomes. No one should make the mistake of ever thinking that because the workings of some aspect of the Realms have not appeared in print, or in the sources they've seen, these things have not been worked out or don't make sense. The magical, personal, historical, and social reasons against widespread resurrection have been alluded to throughout this thread by Garen and others; Derren has just ignored them, and he's mistaken to say logically the king of Cormyr would be resurrected. Logically, he wouldn't.
Kuje31 04-16-05, 12:45 PM	I never said rules I said logic. For example the PCs commited a horrible crime, got caught. Logically they would be executed but for sake of the story you let them go with a fine and a quest. Thats the sort of things I speak off. The PCs killed a king in a magical kingdom. Logically the king should simply be ressurcted if he didn't even had a clone. But that would ruin the story. Who says they would be excuted? Your being to broad here. What if they commited a crime in Skullport? The skulls are known to give them silly quests and or silly punishments, like "Go work, for the day, in taking care of the pets at the pet store." No logically the king wouldn't be ressurected if they have LAWS against such things, which some nations do. Again your thinking to broad here. And it also comes down to deities. Those spells are a gift to their divine casters and if they deities do not want to grant those spells then they do no have to, logically. As I said, story and lore trumps logic and rules, always.
Derren S. 04-16-05, 12:46 PM	And you are to narrow I wasn't talking about Azoun specifically. He doesn't want to come back (for whatever selfish reasons) so this topic is mood anyway. Im most high level games PCs get raised ressurected multiple times. But rulers and leaders? No. Do you want to say that raising dead is illegal? It doesn't look it is to me. At least not everywhere on faerun. So which are the countries where raising the dead is forbidden? You example of Skullport is very weak. In nearly all civilized lands when you murder someone powerful and aren't allied with someone equal powerful you are executed when caught. But you actually support my point. That Kings etc. don't get raised/cloned is illogical and thats because it serves the story. And who needs clerics and gods anyway? Wizards can raise fine with limited wish.
Kuje31 04-16-05, 01:01 PM	I wasn't talking about Azoun specifically. He doesn't want to come back (for whatever selfish reasons) so this topic is mood anyway. Im most high level games PCs get raised ressurected multiple times. But rulers and leaders? No. Do you want to say that raising dead is illegal? It doesn't look it is to me. You example of Skullport is very weak. In nearly all civilized lands when you murder someone powerful and aren't allied with someone equal powerful you are executed when caught. But you actually support my point. That Kings etc. don't get raised/cloned is illogical and thats because it serves the story. No it isn't weak because again there are laws against such things. And again the deities grant those spells are gifts and there are politics between the churches and also the divine caster has to be high enough level to cast them. Civilized lands huh? Well I beg to differ. Thay could be considered "civilized" and they probably would just make you a slave or yes maybe kill you or turn you into a abberation. And Garen did say that resurrecting the royal dead is illegal in Cormyr in post #32. Your being to broad here again. Sorry your arguement here is the weak one. So just because PC's get raised you feel that every one should? Wrong that is your opinion that isn't how it works in FR. Going back to the rules are guidelines those rules are there only because PC's expect they can be raised. Well I've had 1 PC ever be raised in FR over the past ten years of DM'in. And there are only a handful of NPC's in game that have been raised. It's so rare because of a lot of different reasons that it was written into thier story. Wish is still falls under a god, namely Mystra since she is the goddess of magic and wish is a magic spell. And the soul still has to want to return. And the deity still has to want thier petitioner, and or, in the case of Kel, he wants the False or Faithless to return.
Cristos Grimblade 04-16-05, 01:03 PM	Let's not forget that Deific Law overrules mortal law and if some diety thought it necessary to do it.
Derren S. 04-16-05, 01:09 PM	So because raising someone from the royal family in cormy is illegal, a lord of waterdeep, a halruan elder a high ranking zhent guy etc. are not raised? The argument that it is illegal is valid for Cormyr, but not for whole Faerun. And why would Mystra care if someone casts limited wish to raise someone? It is not her problem she only provides the means to cast limited wish which is her portfolio after all.
Kuje31 04-16-05, 01:14 PM	So because raising someone from the royal family in cormy is illegal, a lord of waterdeep, a halruan elder a high ranking zhent guy etc. are not raised? The argument that it is illegal is valid for Cormyr, but not for whole Faerun. And why would Mystra care if someone casts limited wish to raise someone? It is not her problem she only provides the means to cast limited wish which is her portfolio after all. No it was an example that there are laws against raising the dead. I'm sorry you misunderstood that. And again, deity law trumps mortal law. No raise or resurrect spell for you because I want him or her or it to stay dead. And wish would effect all the deities because it's bypassing the souls of thier faithful, which is why most resurrection or raising spells are divine in nature. They grant those spells to thier faitful for a reason. Again you misunderstood the example. Edit: Furthermore, there is nothing in limited wish that allows a wizard to cast cleric spells like resurrection. It only talks about a wizard/sorc casting wizard/sorc spells. Now wish on the otherhand does.
Derren S. 04-16-05, 01:20 PM	So you are saying that nearly every where in Faerun raising is forbidden? And while wish raising affects other deities, what can they do against it? Tell Mystra to cut the caster from the weave? When the raised person is still waiting to be led to his deities home plane wish raising is no problem. If he is already there the god could prevent it, but why should he? A limited wish lets you create nearly any type of effect. For example, a limited wish can do any of the following things. [...] Duplicate any other spell of 5th level or lower, provided the spell is not of a school prohibited to you.
Kuje31 04-16-05, 01:26 PM	So you are saying that nearly every where in Faerun raising is forbidden? And while wish raising affects other deities, what can they do against it? Tell Mystra to cut the caster from the weave? When the raised person is still waiting to be led to his deities home plane wish raising is no problem. If he is already there the god could prevent it, but why should he? No that's not what I'm saying. You are really misunderstanding half of what I've said here. I'm saying "civilized" nations have laws against bringing back thier leaders, etc, because it causes political problems. Now evil "civilized" nations probably don't care so much, which is true because look at Manshoon. He's used clones for decades. What can gods do about it? If they don't want that soul brought back then they deny him or her that event. Souls are fuel for the gods and if they continued to lose them they the gods would be mighty annoyed. Why should the god allow dead souls to be brought back? Are you kidding? If you have to even ask that in the type of world FR is then you really are not understanding how the world works and where some of the gods power comes from. Limitied wish is 7th level spell and notice it says school, that means it is about arcane spells. The only spell for arcane caster that can ressurect the dead is normal wish. Read the darn text!
Derren S. 04-16-05, 01:29 PM	So a god is unwilling to bring back the soul of a powerfull member of his faith who is looked up to which possibly brings converts to his faith because he can't wait 20 or so years to get the soul back when he dies of old age? The gods really must be stupid. And you should read the spell. Limited wish makes a clear distinction between spells on the Sorc/Wiz spell list and spells which are not on the list. You do know that divine spells also have schools, do you? Limited Wish Universal Level: Sor/Wiz 7 Components: V, S, XP Casting Time: 1 standard action Range: See text Target, Effect, or Area: See text Duration: See text Saving Throw: None; see text Spell Resistance: Yes A limited wish lets you create nearly any type of effect. For example, a limited wish can do any of the following things. * Duplicate any sorcerer/wizard spell of 6th level or lower, provided the spell is not of a school prohibited to you. * Duplicate any other spell of 5th level or lower, provided the spell is not of a school prohibited to you.
Kuje31 04-16-05, 01:32 PM	So a god is unwilling to bring back the soul of a powerfull member of his faith who is looked up to which possibly brings converts to his faith because he can't wait 20 or so years to get the soul back when he dies of old age? The gods really must be stupid. And you should read the spell. Limited wish makes a clear distinction between spells on teh Sorc/Wiz spell list and spells which are not on the list. You do know that divine spells also have schools, do you? I did read the text, do you see any divine 7th level spells on that limited wish text? Nopers. Resurection is a 7th level spell. And it says school prohibited from you, that means arcane schools for specialists. And how do you not know the deity has plans for that soul and mortals are getting in the way of the deities plans? Hmmm?
Derren S. 04-16-05, 01:35 PM	Ah because every deity has plans for all souls of all kings and other important people of Faerun. Who is now "broad" here? And do you know of Raise Dead? Its a 5th level cleric spell you know.
Kuje31 04-16-05, 01:43 PM	Ah because every deity has plans for all souls of all kings and other important people of Faerun. Who is now "broad" here? And do you know of Raise Dead? Its a 5th level cleric spell you know. Yes because that's how deities get thier power, from souls. It doesn't matter what the being was in life, now they are just one of the thousands, millions, trillions of souls that fuel the deity. You could have been a king in life, but now it doesn't matter, you are just one of my souls. Hells even in 2e it was worse because as soon as you went through the astral your memories and life were wiped from you. And when and if you returned the memory crystals that stored your memories and the like restored your memories to you. And so? We are not talking about raise dead. And you ignored half of what I said above.
warlockco 04-16-05, 01:46 PM	So a god is unwilling to bring back the soul of a powerfull member of his faith who is looked up to which possibly brings converts to his faith because he can't wait 20 or so years to get the soul back when he dies of old age? The gods really must be stupid. And you should read the spell. Limited wish makes a clear distinction between spells on the Sorc/Wiz spell list and spells which are not on the list. You do know that divine spells also have schools, do you? So how did we switch to Raise Dead, in a thread that has been talking about Resurrection the entire time?!? :confused: Also in all the various sources that have been published (Game Material and NOvels), other than Mages with various Clone spells in effect, there has hardly (fewer than 10 if even that many) ever been any resurrection of the dead, especially those of power, in the past 20 years. And those that have been resurrected, usually were done so by strange means, or direct divine intervention. Also most Authority Figures that do die, are old to begin with and have lived a "full life" as it were. So you would rip them from the afterlife to serve selfish needs?
Derren S. 04-16-05, 01:53 PM	First you are saying that the god has plans for this soul, than you are saying that all souls are equal. Isn't this a bit contradicting? So no one can be raised from the dead because gods have plans for all souls (As all are the same)? And while for the god all souls are the same for those who worship him they are not. So why wouldn't a god give back a sould which, by his status and deeds when it is alive, will increase his number of worshiper and therefore his souls he will get? Because a god can't wait 20 years for a single soul? Does it matter which spell is used? No. Ok when using raising dead you maybe have to use Make Whole first, but the result is the same. A again living king. And you it seems you have to read the magic rules again. All spells have the same schools. Raise Dead for example is a conjuration spell. A wizard with conjuration as prohibited school can't use limited wish to cast raise dead, but a normal wizard can. Have you even read the spell? Limited Wish Universal Level: Sor/Wiz 7 Components: V, S, XP Casting Time: 1 standard action Range: See text Target, Effect, or Area: See text Duration: See text Saving Throw: None; see text Spell Resistance: Yes A limited wish lets you create nearly any type of effect. For example, a limited wish can do any of the following things. * Duplicate any sorcerer/wizard spell of 6th level or lower, provided the spell is not of a school prohibited to you. * Duplicate any other spell of 5th level or lower, provided the spell is not of a school prohibited to you. * Duplicate any sorcerer/wizard spell of 5th level or lower, even if it’s of a prohibited school. * Duplicate any other spell of 4th level or lower, even if it’s of a prohibited school. * Undo the harmful effects of many spells, such as geas/quest or insanity. * Produce any other effect whose power level is in line with the above effects, such as a single creature automatically hitting on its next attack or taking a -7 penalty on its next saving throw. A duplicated spell allows saving throws and spell resistance as normal (but the save DC is for a 7th-level spell). When a limited wish duplicates a spell that has an XP cost, you must pay that cost or 300 XP, whichever is more. When a limited wish spell duplicates a spell with a material component that costs more than 1,000 gp, you must provide that component. XP Cost 300 XP or more (see above).
Kuje31 04-16-05, 02:01 PM	First you are saying that the god has plans for this soul, than you are saying that all souls are equal. Isn't this a bit contradicting? So no one can be raised from the dead because gods have plans for all souls (As all are the same)? And while for the god all souls are the same for those who worship him they are not. So why wouldn't a god give back a sould which, by his status and deeds when it is alive, will increase his number of worshiper and therefore his souls he will get? Because a god can't wait 20 years for a single soul? Does it matter which spell is used? No. Ok when using raising dead you maybe have to use Make Whole first, but the result is the same. A again living king. And you it seems you have to read the magic rules again. All spells have the same schools. Raise Dead for example is a conjuration spell. A wizard with conjuration as prohibited school can't use limited wish to cast raise dead, but a normal wizard can. Have you even read the spell? Limited Wish Universal Level: Sor/Wiz 7 Components: V, S, XP Casting Time: 1 standard action Range: See text Target, Effect, or Area: See text Duration: See text Saving Throw: None; see text Spell Resistance: Yes A limited wish lets you create nearly any type of effect. For example, a limited wish can do any of the following things. * Duplicate any sorcerer/wizard spell of 6th level or lower, provided the spell is not of a school prohibited to you. * Duplicate any other spell of 5th level or lower, provided the spell is not of a school prohibited to you. * Duplicate any sorcerer/wizard spell of 5th level or lower, even if it’s of a prohibited school. * Duplicate any other spell of 4th level or lower, even if it’s of a prohibited school. * Undo the harmful effects of many spells, such as geas/quest or insanity. * Produce any other effect whose power level is in line with the above effects, such as a single creature automatically hitting on its next attack or taking a -7 penalty on its next saving throw. A duplicated spell allows saving throws and spell resistance as normal (but the save DC is for a 7th-level spell). When a limited wish duplicates a spell that has an XP cost, you must pay that cost or 300 XP, whichever is more. When a limited wish spell duplicates a spell with a material component that costs more than 1,000 gp, you must provide that component. XP Cost 300 XP or more (see above). Yes I read the spell, and you are still missing the part where it says raise, ressurect, etc are DIVINE spells. It doesn't matter what thier school is because they are divine spells. The school part of limited wish is about SPECIALIST wizards. And yes that is the deities plan for the souls, they use them for power. Why wouldn't he give the soul back? Because it's dead and thus it powers the deity and the deity might have other plans for it. Gods I explained this above. How do you know the king and or leader will increase the deities power? You are assuming this is the case, unless he decides that the state religion is only that of the deity I don't see how he can influence everyone to worship that deity in the 20 years you keep throwing around. And if it was a worshipper of Tempus and the worshippered died in battle, Tempus would not return it since it was fulfulling what Tempus does. Same with most of the deities, this is why people worship them because they usually then go to the afterlife. These are examples, btw. :) And again there are mortal and deity laws against raise or resurrection that you keep forgetting or ignoring.
Derren S. 04-16-05, 02:07 PM	How do you know the king and or leader will increase the deities power? You are assuming this is the case, How do you (or the god) know he won't? You are assuming a lot of things. That the gods have plans for this specific single soul, that there are laws everywhere in Faerun which makes raising illegal. Do you think no god is willing to take the risk to wait 20 years longer for a soul with the posibility to get hundereds of more souls in return? You continue to bring up things which are single exceptions at best and not the general rule but despite this you argue as it will always be this way. Also aren't the gods supposed to gain power from worshiper? Thats something different than souls. As for the limited wish, explain to me the difference between: Duplicate any sorcerer/wizard spell of 6th level or lower, provided the spell is not of a school prohibited to you. and Duplicate any other spell of 5th level or lower, provided the spell is not of a school prohibited to you.
Kuje31 04-16-05, 02:18 PM	How do you (or the god) know he won't? You are assuming a lot of things. That the gods have plans for this specific single soul, that there are laws everywhere in Faerun which makes raising illegal. Do you think no god is willing to take the risk to wait 20 years longer for a soul with the posibility to get hundereds of more souls in return? You continue to bring up things which are single exceptions at best and not the general rule but despite this you argue as it will always be this way. Also aren't the gods supposed to gain power from worshiper? Thats something different than souls. Because they are gods and they can tell weeks, months, years in advance what living beings who worship them are going to do. And they can do that even more when the soul is dead. You are the one who started with general rules. You said magic has just been slapped on in Faerun. Well as you can see most of us disagree with that statement and we gave you reasons why that are straight from sourcebooks, novels, or Ed. I never said that there were laws everywhere that make raising or resurrection illegal. I showed examples of places where it IS but you continue to say that everywhere raise dead/resurrection would be allowed because to you logic has to play into it when most of us said no, story does. FR has ALWAYS been about story. If the gods do not want raise or ressurction then it will not happen. There are a handful only of NPC's that have been brought back and it usually at the deity that does it. Since souls belong to the deities for various reasons. But I'm done with this and this is my last reply to you about this. The only one, it seems, who can convince you is Ed himself. So take this up with him over on Candlekeep.com in his thread. I'm sure we'd love to see you two hash this out.
Derren S. 04-16-05, 02:24 PM	And when a good sees that the soul wil bring him more worshiper is the god still unwilling to let him be raised? And you also forget the alignment. Why would a good god stop a soul from coming back when the soul, when alive, can bring much good the world (ditto for evil gods with evil acts)? Are all gods so self centred that they won't give up one soul no matter how much the soul is needed on Faerun? And can we agree now that you can raise someone from the death with limited wish? But ok, I was wrong that magic isn't taken into account in the realms. Its application is just unlogical.
Slime Lord 04-16-05, 02:34 PM	Do I have to go summon my favorite Sisster? Because I can do that you two...I've already done it once this week on a topic.. Let's not carry on a battle here... *Whistles*
Kuje31 04-16-05, 02:36 PM	Do I have to go summon my favorite Sisster? Because I can do that you two...I've already done it once this week on a topic.. Let's not carry on a battle here... *Whistles* Nope. I said in my last reply, above, I'm done discussing this with Derren. I hope he does as I asked and takes it up with Ed.
Derren S. 04-16-05, 02:41 PM	I don't want to bother Ed with it. I would get the same discussiona s here anyway. Story>logic and how the gods act and who is ressurected and why are all resolved with the story in the mind, not with logic. Would it be logical for kings to have clones and be ressurected when assasinated or killed in battle? Yes (don't forget that live is stil limited by the natural live span). Would it make a good story when they are simply ressurected? No.
Preternatural 04-16-05, 04:18 PM	I don't want to bother Ed with it. I would get the same discussiona s here anyway. Story>logic and how the gods act and who is ressurected and why are all resolved with the story in the mind, not with logic. Would it be logical for kings to have clones and be ressurected when assasinated or killed in battle? Yes (don't forget that live is stil limited by the natural live span). Would it make a good story when they are simply ressurected? No. So by your logic, it would be in a deity's best interest to resurrect every worshipper it has. Cauae as long as they're alive, they 1. Worship said Deity to provide them power, 2. Convert others, thus gain more worshippers. Surely even a commoner can convert a friend or two, especially if they tell their buddies that their patron will resurrect on the spot. So the god who does that will be more powerful than any other, but then all the gods would do that, and then you have one overcrowded world. Where do you draw the line? Wouldn't it then be in Mystra's best interest to resurrect most of the Netherese? Most of them weren't nuts like Karsus. That would be one more magic loving nation on Faerûn, promoting magic, developing magic, worshipping her. But then again, they were magical gluttons even, phaerimm food. It would throw the balance out the window. you keep saying limits on resurrection is illogical, I can point you to various articles about cloning and the like that say otherwise. Moral and ethical debates, simple logic that such acts would completely put the world into chaos. Again with the cloning of kings, if a king has an heir and dies, then is cloned, and finds love with another and has more kids, then declare's his new kids to be the heirs. Who is the true heir? The original king's or the cloned king's. Certainly the original's since he was first, but you've been following this clone for the last two decades, what of his judgement? If the king has an heir in place, and he returns, he just sidestepped the power he left his heir, forever putting the heir in his shadow, that will make a weak ruler, or a weak reign and put his entire line into jeopardy. If a rich man dies, and his wife who loves him dearly clones him, does he keep his own money rather than pass it on to his sons. "Oops, sorry boys, daddy is back, hand him back his estate and merchant company." What if he has a change of heart and decides to kick his loving wife to the gutter and instead takes up a different lover every week. Sucks for the wife doesn't it. If a god resurrects one of his greatest followers, but the follower down those extra decades of life comes upon an epiphany decides he wants to worship another god, well the original god just lost a huge investment. ex. Paladin of Torm, all good and righteous just got tired of his duty, all these foolish commoners don't know what the hell they're doing anyway, he shouldn't protect them, he should rule them. To Hades with them, he goes over to Bane, who seems to know how to keep these peasants, these sheep, in line. He converts to a Blackguard of Bane and is now one of the greatest threats to Torm and his allies.
Derren S. 04-16-05, 04:36 PM	Where to draw the line? That depends on how much influence the person had in life and how true he was to the gods teaching. And you forget that raising doesn't mean you live forever, the heir has just to wait longer (see prince Charles). Clones are different though. With them you can live forever. (The more amazes me that people regard cloning as less problematic than raising)
Preternatural 04-16-05, 04:59 PM	Where to draw the line? That depends on how much influence the person had in life and how true he was to the gods teaching. Now we're going back to peity... which you argued against. Wishes and the like were discussed before. And you forget that raising doesn't mean you live forever, the heir has just to wait longer (see prince Charles). Advisor: "Hurrah, the king is dead, now you get to be king, my prince, or should I say King." An hour later, Advisor: "Oh wait, they resurrected the king, I guess you'll have to wait." Years later, an aged Prince: "Is it my reign yet?" Advisor: "No, the peasants still want their old king back, they're so used to him you know. Actually, while he was brought back, he had another son, he likes that son better, so you're out of the running I'm sorry." Clones are different though. With them you can live forever. (The more amazes me that people regard cloning as less problematic than raising) Never said cloning was a smaller hassle, though you seem to make it sound like it solves all problems. You have yet to address my points in my previous post. And by doing so, I'm repeating myself more often than I would like. Until you do address the points with an actual argument, I will let this debate end here. I don't like arguments in general (too great a chance to raise the attention of WizOs), I would much rather concentrate on discussing Realmslore and character backgrounds.
BrianCritchley 04-16-05, 06:32 PM	the thing about ressurection is.. it's unnatural and selfish. selfish you say? simple. the person who died has gone onto a "better place" it's pure selfish to inturrept their much deserved work load simply cause YOU want em back.
Slime Lord 04-16-05, 07:01 PM	the thing about ressurection is.. it's unnatural and selfish. selfish you say? simple. the person who died has gone onto a "better place" it's pure selfish to inturrept their much deserved work load simply cause YOU want em back. Well said. Now, I hope this is the last of this topic since it should have ended back on page one or early page two.
ElGrecoETAC 04-16-05, 07:43 PM	Clones don't extend your life past your racial maximum. Clones also have to be cast by willing Wizards. In a Magocracy, this might be simple. In a regular kingdom, though, you have to have a mage that's 15th level or greater, and who just happens to have the Clone spell. You also have to convince him to clone you. After all, most 15th level Wizards have to have an incentive greater than "I order you." At that level and power, they generally follow their own code of mores and ideals--and probably have an opinion or two regarding the idea of an absolute monarch who can't be killed. Would it happen? Of course--I'm fairly confident that Vangerdahast, for example, wouldn't have objected to the idea of a Clone for Azoun, especially if the political climate called for it. Whether he had the spell or not, however, is another question. But this would neither be routine, nor a common occurance. There's a lot of mages in Faerun, but most of them are not in the business of insuring the continuity of royal lineage. Most of them probably couldn't be bothered with such things, or likely wouldn't want to be involved. Hence the myriads of magi who choose to either live in the wilderness, live in guild-dictated neutrality (or guild-dictated mercenary status), or rule outright. Where the rest of the points are concerned (magic replacing normal labor, etc.), the primary questions are: what would the cost be compared to mundane equivalents, and who could afford it? The baseline service has to be mundane. At some point in the past, magic was preceded by a mundane effort. If, for example, it costs X amount of gold to hire 10 caravan guards, 10 drivers, 3-4 animal groomsmen, a merchant to lead a caravan, an accountant, feed for the animals, provisions for the men, lodging costs, equipment, etc., then it's going to cost significantly more than X to pay for a Wizard of high enough level to instantaneously ship an equivalent shipment of merchandise--without complication or jeopardy. Who could afford this? Not too many people. Does it happen? Sure it does--when it's worth the money and effort for both parties. Now, think about other examples, and how they deal with an Arcane caster, his motivations, and his reasons for being a mage. A 14th level mage who can cast 7th level spells has an Intelligence of (probably) 17 or higher. He is, in fact, a genius, and has likely travelled far and wide, maybe even in other planes. He researches the laws of reality, and--depending on alignment--might incorporate those studies with fending off evil or ruling over the weak. WHY ON EARTH WOULD HE GIVE UP HIS STUDIES AND ADVANCEMENT TO BECOME FULL TIME FED EX??? If the worst should happen, I have NO DOUBT that a mage with financial needs might tackle some money-making scheme that doesn't conflict with his morals. But so many of the examples listed in earlier posts just smack of so much metagaming! Save in an agrarian kingdom full of Chauntea worshippers, what other nation would deploy mages in numbers great enough to regularly create "Unseen Servants to do farm work"? Outside of a magocracy, what government could force the arcane population of a nation to work in a mystical equivalent of a socialist state? The example has to be true, original, and culturally relevant. Thay, as mentioned, is a state where magic is used in great amounts, to the detriment of most ordinary folk. Elven nations feature architecture that is predominately magical in nature--buildings, towers, and temples grown and shaped from organic materials by spells are combined with magical fields that provide minor healing, safety features, and effects such as flight and element control to denizens. But that doesn't mean that ALL of Faerun features these amazingly magic-friendly cultures. There are places in Faerun where mages aren't trusted, aren't frequent, or aren't all that powerful! So far as priests go, this would all have to do with ethos, and I think your thinking here is tainted by 21st century "Earth" perceptions. There are just too many variables that can't be reached with "what if" or assumptions. A leader might be benevolent, but not in line with the ethos of the priest in his area who has Resurrection as a spell. For example, you might be the most charitable, kind, and benevolent Duke of Baldur's Gate. If Umberlee has the only priest in town who has the spell, you may also be very screwed. Heck, if the priest personally feels King So-And-So led this grand life and had this great end, he might be ethically opposed to bringing him back. In fact, he might have a moral lesson or two to pass on about self-reliance, the cycle of life, etc. And we haven't even gotten into the politics involved in the church jumping in to save the state. Bottom line, the FR have consistently displayed a theme where this sort of thing is concerned. It's rare for a reason, and they do a good job depicting it. I hate to sound like I'm on an advertising band wagon, but "Forsaken House" really did well in showing how Resurrection is the exception to the rule, and not the norm. And, without sounding like too much of a critic, if you have a game where Resurrection is as simple as dropping cash on the donation plate...
Derren S. 04-17-05, 02:47 AM	And, without sounding like too much of a critic, if you have a game where Resurrection is as simple as dropping cash on the donation plate... Ah, so a Waukeen cleric would under no circumstance sell his spells, right. And finding a lvl 15 wizard and a scroll of clone is so hard in the magic rich Faerun especially where there are mage fairs in most big cities once a year.
Chosen of Bane 04-17-05, 08:58 AM	Ah, so a Waukeen cleric would under no circumstance sell his spells, right. And finding a lvl 15 wizard and a scroll of clone is so hard in the magic rich Faerun especially where there are mage fairs in most big cities once a year. Maybe a cleric of Waukeen would be willing to sell his spells but that doesn't mean the deity would be willing to grant the spell to raise. Why should Waukeen want to give a second chance to someone who doesn't even give praise to her?
Derren S. 04-17-05, 09:07 AM	Maybe a cleric of Waukeen would be willing to sell his spells but that doesn't mean the deity would be willing to grant the spell to raise. Why should Waukeen want to give a second chance to someone who doesn't even give praise to her? Because by granting this spell she fulfills her portfolio as the spell is sold/traded?
Chosen of Bane 04-17-05, 09:33 AM	A cleric of Waukeen that wants to trade/sell spells can still have a very lucrative trade without using resurrection spells. Plus you have to think of the deity who is holding the dead persons soul. If they were faithless or false why would Kelemvor let that person be raised for no good reason? If the soul was in another Deities domain that isn't an ally of Waukeen than why would they want Waukeen's clergy to take back their soul. If the deity is an ally of Waukeen than there you go, a resurrection will be granted.
Kuje31 04-17-05, 11:35 AM	A cleric of Waukeen that wants to trade/sell spells can still have a very lucrative trade without using resurrection spells. Plus you have to think of the deity who is holding the dead persons soul. If they were faithless or false why would Kelemvor let that person be raised for no good reason? If the soul was in another Deities domain that isn't an ally of Waukeen than why would they want Waukeen's clergy to take back their soul. If the deity is an ally of Waukeen than there you go, a resurrection will be granted. This is what I said before, but he skipped over it or he changed the arguement. :)
Derren S. 04-17-05, 11:41 AM	As you skipped over mine. You do as if every las soul and every second matters for the gods as if they are currently in a war. Also where does it say that the power of gods come from souls? After the ToT it depends on the number of worshiper (theoretically) so where do you get the thing with souls? Hoe would Waukeen get the soul from a deity not allied with her? Perhaps trading it if possible?
Myssa Rei 04-17-05, 02:01 PM	Uhm, can everyone please get back on-topic? If this discussion strays any further from the initial argument, we all know what's going to happen. -_- Aaaaanyways... In the Realms, it's always been a fact that story always trumps rules. This is how it's been before, and this is how it remains even today. The D&D rules, whatever edition they are when they novels come out, aren't strict guidelines that have to be followed: it a situation calls for something dramatic or spectacular that isn't included in any of the Core Rulebooks, then the author can very well ignore them. Case in point... Everyone remember the spell Elminsters Efficacent Epuration (sp?) ? If you read the rules of the spell (the 3rd Edition version), you'll see that it can only absorb so much spell levels before cancelling out. However, if you've read the second novel of the Malaugrym books (When Shadows Fall, I think its title was), in Elminster's battle against that giant created by that Thayvian, the spheres he created using the spell laster waaaaaaaaaay longer than what you might expect. Need I point to the way Spellfire is portrayed in the novels as well? Or dozens of other effects? Or how Manshoon seemingly defeated a darned ARCHLICH (see Lady Saharel's entry in LEoF), even though he was lacking in levels. Or my personal favorite... That battle in which the Knights of Myth Drannor defeated no less than twenty devils, which included at least three pit fiends, their Zhentarim summoners, and God-knows how many other nasties, DESPITE the fact that none of the Knights are beyond level 16... The same goes for the spells such as wish and resurrection. Logic dictates that, because they're in the rulebooks, then they HAVE to be used. However, in a setting such as Forgotten Realms, there are other things to consider (and let's just keep meta-gaming aside for now) like culture, laws of succession, and the like. That's why it's rarely done, DESPITE the Realms being considered a high-magic world. Of course, there's the much-abused Wish spell... But then again that's the domain of Wizards.
Preternatural 04-17-05, 02:08 PM	As you skipped over mine. You do as if every las soul and every second matters for the gods as if they are currently in a war. Also where does it say that the power of gods come from souls? After the ToT it depends on the number of worshiper (theoretically) so where do you get the thing with souls? Don't souls, in the form of petitioners, still worship the deity? How would Waukeen get the soul from a deity not allied with her? Perhaps trading it if possible? Some of the gods are at war, they don't necessarily have to be bashing each other's heads in every day, it's an on and off thing. Even in wars, there are individual battles when the fighting gets intense. If souls don't matter, why are they worth trading for. What would a god trade for a soul? Gods have pretty much everything, can make everything, except worshippers, living or dead, which to them is the most important. That's how the pantheonic economy works, limited resources is worshippers and the souls associated with those worshippers. Any deity worth his portfolio won't trade the soul of one of his own for the soul of another, even if it means practicing said portfolio. It's a lose-lose situation.
ElGrecoETAC 04-17-05, 06:51 PM	Ah, so a Waukeen cleric would under no circumstance sell his spells, right. Is the monarch in question aligned to Waukeen's ethos? Does he have relations within their church? Is his realm or government an ally of Waukeen's church? What guarantee does Waukeen's church have that this resurrected monarch would do anything than spot them the relatively inconsequential rules-listed sum behind a resurrection? How would his resurrection affect their greater schemes/plans? It's more complicated than "I want to buy a resurrection." Now, I definitely see priests of several ethos actively providing as much mundane or magical healing as possible to their congregations. I'm sure Lathanderite, Chauntean, etc., priests likely bend over backwards to cure diseases as they spring up, mend a broken leg with cure (light, moderate, whatever) wounds, and so on so forth. Their believers are hurt and suffering, and should thus be aided. But why resurrection? Most "good" deities propogate the idea of a lasting "paradise" after the short time spent on Faerun. Assuming a high priest of Chauntea in town X, why would he go about resurrecting people? Most of his followers are likely common peasant farmers. While Jerrad the farmer's death at the hands of that band of Gnolls was tragic, the temple collected money from the community, pitched in some from the coffers, and set his widow up with enough to support herself until young Dirk can take up the plow. Sure, he could bring Jerrad back, but why would he, when he knows he's in a much finer place? As a true believer, he knows that any difficulties his widow and son face can be overcome by faith and the help of the community, and besides--they'll join him soon enough in the great happy beyond! Now comes Baron Hardstrom's wife. The Baron died in an accident, and left no sons. Dastardly Guy, his cousin, is the next in line--he'll certainly ruin next season's crops through horrible management and ultra-taxation. Plus, he's known to court smugglers and Zhentarim! They simply MUST resurrect the Baron... On the other hand, the High Priest would likely personally take up the task of defending the community, while sending a message to his superiors to send a cadre of Paladins and attendant-squires to help keep the peace. If Guy starts messing around, he'll find a counterbalance in those defenders of the people, and the church will lobby with the Duke or the King to strip him of his title. And that's just one example of how an ethos may conflict with this meta gaming idea of resurrecting all this time. I won't even get into Tymora's likely attitudes, or the odds of convincing a non-benevolent deity! And finding a lvl 15 wizard and a scroll of clone is so hard in the magic rich Faerun especially where there are mage fairs in most big cities once a year. Finding a 15th level Wizard? No, not necessarily. Finding the scroll, or a Wizard with the spell? Yes, believe it or not, that might be complicated. Not every mage has this spell available, and not every mage who has it might be receptive to aiding you. 1) "Sorry, your lordship, but I haven't had need for coin for quite some time." 2) "In all honesty, I'd rather not aid someone who seems to attract the attentions of Harpers (or Helmites, or Zhentarim, or Szass Tam) as much as you do, M'Lord." 3) "Are you jesting? I've heard how you treat those villagers... why would I help ensure your continuing health?" Of course, there are Wizards who DO serve lieges in a position to help them (a secure environment for studies and experiments, for instance, or a bankroll for rare ingredients and specimens that would otherwise be difficult to gather), and I'm sure there's some crafty leaders who have Contingencies, Refuges, and Clones set up. But that doesn't mean that they all have such connections and resources, or that they are culturally acceptable in their locale. I have to say, you're drawing an assumption from a couple of examples and trying to form a generalization that's unnecessary. There's plenty of evidence that what you claim would be common sense happens very often, and I'll run over some examples again: 1) Manshoon, formerly a leader of a city state, and his variety of Clones. 2) 300 Hathrans in Rashemar serving as a policing and judiciary element; several thousand lesser practicioners serving as minor healers among other things. 3) Elven magicians intimately involved with the architecture, layout, and landscape of most urban dwellings their race makes. 4) Mythals that assist with most common place chores and emergencies. 5) Guild Wizards of lower stature who assist with everything from item crafting to ship navigations, long distance communications, transport, etc., in places such as Waterdeep and Baldur's Gate. 6) An entire government in Thay that uses magic to ensure everything from a standing military (dread warriors, undead creatures) to infrastructure support, etc. 7) Pretty much all of Halruaa runs on magic as well. All the examples above show magic-rich (both arcane and divine) cultures, that use those magics in ways that benefit them tremendously. But many places either limit the ways magic aids them on a cultural or religious basis. The key is that these limitations should be realistic for their society. Let's look at some other parts of Faerun: 1) Chessenta is seeing movements against arcane practicioners, which would limit any benefit they could offer to those who could afford them. 2) Unther recently saw its Pantheon die off. How long before the common people are comfortable with accepting healing and favors from other, often hated deities? 3) Nations such as Mulhorand have an entire philosophy, mythos, and belief structure revolving around their relationship with their Pantheon. How realistic would it be for them to order resurrections and so forth? 4) The North and the Western Heartlands are often home to smaller, rural states and cities that don't necessarily have the mages and clerics you're talking about. How simple would it be for someone to travel about seeking this sort of business arrangement? 5) A Drow House might be limited to the resources found within its walls. If the House Wizard is young or simply not great, would a priestess of Lolth stoop so low as to insure her continued long life by recruiting the skills of a mage not in service to her? 6) Barbarians might feel averse to both arcane and a lot of divine magic, depending on their traditions. 7) The denizens of Anauroch are very opposed to arcane magic, due to the legacy of Netheril. Again, looking at your arguments, it seems you're using the throught process of a 21st century individual from a "first world" nation looking at the Realms from a rulesbook perspective instead of as a living place.
Chosen of Bane 04-17-05, 09:35 PM	People, we should really put this thread to rest. We are not going to convince anybody on what is the right way to handle things. We're getting nowhere. Darren S. has his ways, the rest of the world has their ways. Lets leave it at that. As long as we all have fun gaming and reading the Realms material it really doesn't matter anymore. As for people that want to stick to the original topic... I think it is answered rather well in the previous posts.
Matrix Sorcica 04-18-05, 05:23 AM	Just to make a few points. This thread wasn't just about ressurrection, It is also about raise dead (see title). After a couple of replies, I came to the conclusion, that there is only the roleplaying/story element to explain the lack of raises. The arguments about unwilling deities, Mysta not granting limited wish, raising is illegal, heiritage problems, etc. doesn't really hold water IMO. But like I said, many posts ago, that's ok. If I know that is the reason, I can work with that. One of the reasons I asked in the first place is, having not read any of the novels, that there are absolutely no explanation given for anyones untimely death and lack of raise in the FRCS. So I was curious if the answers were to be found in the novels. And so they were, sort of I guess. :)
Preternatural 04-18-05, 01:02 PM	Just to make a few points. This thread wasn't just about ressurrection, It is also about raise dead (see title). After a couple of replies, I came to the conclusion, that there is only the roleplaying/story element to explain the lack of raises. The arguments about unwilling deities, Mysta not granting limited wish, raising is illegal, heiritage problems, etc. doesn't really hold water IMO. :) I guess. But what would be a rules reason? Not have those types of spells available?
Matrix Sorcica 04-19-05, 04:52 AM	I guess. But what would be a rules reason? Not have those types of spells available? I was thinking more like that the way major characters were killed had an influence. You know, trap the soul and such. Doesn't really makes for great drama, though ;)
Preternatural 04-19-05, 02:05 PM	I was thinking more like that the way major characters were killed had an influence. You know, trap the soul and such. Doesn't really makes for great drama, though ;) Yeah, a decent plot and good execution makes an adventure or campaign. Raise dead requires that the subject wishes to return, it's not as much a role play reason as you think, as the spell will not work (mechanically) if the deceased wishes to stay that way. I guess if you really wanted some sort of rule, then you can limit the material components. Diamond worth 5000 gp is also needed for Raise dead. Now for a nation 5000 gp probably isn't all that much, finding diamonds worth 5000 gp is a different story. If diamonds aren't available, then they are just not available, and the spell can't be cast. Maybe it will set off another quest to gather diamonds. Trade with a neighboring nation, other nation knowing what the diamonds are needed for might be a bit more haughty in their dealings. They could even sell you a bag full of fake diamonds, who knows what that will do. Maybe a trip to the inner planes to gather them, and risk making enemies of the elementals. Possibly seek out a gifted and finicky transmuter or alchemist who might be willing to manufacture some for you. Maybe some brave souls might raid a dragon's treasure hoard to get them, and later on, said dragon gets mad and starts torching your kingdom. Alternatively, the remains of the individual can be kept from recover until it is past the limit of the spell. If the DM is really evil, they can severely damage the body, so the raised might be missing arms, legs, their tongue or eyes, how much use is a king who can't physically lead an army or see or communicate. If that does happen, then the newly handicapped king might have a good subplot about overcoming his new situation. That could be interesting. Using ressurrection to buy lots more time and remove the mutilation cause, just raises the difficulty of finding someone able and willing to cast the spell and the price of the diamonds. Diamonds are usually rare for that reason. Of course the DM can say there are more diamonds available, but that's up to the DM. The DM sets the availability of materials, whether the body or remains can be recovered in time and whether or not an NPC wishes to return. In the novels, the authors are for all intents and purposes are the DMs, and they said the Raised/Resurrection spells won't work or won't be used, and that's how it is.
Derren S. 04-20-05, 04:40 AM	Yeah, a decent plot and good execution makes an adventure or campaign. [...] The DM sets the availability of materials, whether the body or remains can be recovered in time and whether or not an NPC wishes to return. In the novels, the authors are for all intents and purposes are the DMs, and they said the Raised/Resurrection spells won't work or won't be used, and that's how it is. A little story comes into mind. DM (as NPC): Oh no, the High Marshal of our armies has been poisoned. Without him we will be overrun by the orcish horde except some brave adventurers go into the dungeon of bloody dismemberbent and recove the szepter of whacking (*hint hint*) PC1: Why the hassle? You can simply raise him and all is fine. NPC: Uhmm. We don't have...diamonds! yes, we don't have the diamonds required to do it! PC2: *stares at the loads of expensive decoration in the room which includes hundereds of diamonds* Then bring him over to the high temple of Tyr right across the street. They will have enough diamonds to raise him. NPC: Uhhhh, we already tried but Tyr doesn't want to raise our greatest warrior in the time of need. PC1: Oh, okay....Then ower cleric will do it. We wanted to sell those diamonds to finally get some money for our work but this is more important. *Waves to PC3 to begin casting* DM to PC3(slightly angry): All your powers vanish and your feel that your god is angry at you. PC3: What the? Sorry guys but Corellon decided that raising him so that this kingdom can defeat the orc army is the wrong thing to do. I can't do it. PC2:Oh well. Ok, I cast limited wish to raise him. Please give me the diamonds and... DM (starts yelling): Mystra cuts you from the weave and you loose all spellcasting power! PC2: What??? Mystra can't do this without a good reason! I... PC4: Give me the scroll of limited wish you have. I can use my Use Magic Device skill.. DM(screaming): THE SCROLL CRUMBLES TO DUST! And now go into this damm dungeon so that the story can continue or I will kill you all!!!!
Faraer 04-20-05, 12:40 PM	Shades of Ed vs jerryd, except jerryd read the sources.The arguments about unwilling deities, Mysta not granting limited wish, raising is illegal, heiritage problems, etc. doesn't really hold water IMO. ... One of the reasons I asked in the first place is, having not read any of the novels, that there are absolutely no explanation given for anyones untimely death and lack of raise in the FRCS.So you come to the conclusion that Ed Greenwood is incompetent, that all the posters explaining the situation here and citing the sources are liars, without even having read those very partial sources that are published? Do you think you are likely to be right?
Meta_FR_DM 04-21-05, 12:52 AM	….why should the FRCS have to explain what is so obviously a caveat to players? Raise Dead and Resurrection exist so players whose favorite characters die have a means to bring them back. It’s really that simple. They are game elements first and foremost. And granted Faerûn reflects those rules and other game rules…however Faerûn is not defined by those rules, nor is it limited by them*. This is because the FRCS makes it quite clear that Faerûn is a living, breathing world that is filled with a near-limitless variety of free willed individuals whose goals and beliefs are nowhere near as simplified as someone looking at Faerûn through game-rules tinted glasses might presume to think. It just wouldn’t make sense for there to be frequent use of Clone, Resurrection and similar in Faerûn, because such frequent use would not accurately reflect the varied attitudes and goals of Faerûn’s diverse inhabitants, nor would it reflect the tumultuous, millennia long history that has served to shape modern Faerun and is itself quite independent of the game rules used to model it. ElGrecoETAC has illustrated this undeniable fact quite clearly. I imagine if this question were posed to Ed Greenwood at Candlekeep, he’d pretty much say the same thing. It is for these reasons that saying Clone and whatnot aren’t used much “for story reasons” isn’t quite the right answer to the thread topic question, but even so if someone does say this then they are at least partially right, and can’t be said to be replying with some sort of cop-out that ignores the central question. Finally I think it’s appropriate for a Dungeon Master to increase or decrease the use of these spells in his campaign depending on what he thinks makes the most sense for his campaign’s version of Faerûn. Dave M. *Yes Faerar, I’ve seen the light. ;)
BrianCritchley 04-21-05, 01:22 AM	another thing to keep in mind is that sometimes raise dead and healing may be accounted for. Cormyr the Novel portays an EXCELLENT case of a poison that makes magical healing all but impossiable. and if you think that poison was unique, you're proably wrong. I'm sure it's been sued before and will be used again
Matrix Sorcica 04-21-05, 03:01 AM	….why should the FRCS have to explain what is so obviously a caveat to players? Raise Dead and Resurrection exist so players whose favorite characters die have a means to bring them back. It’s really that simple. They are game elements first and foremost. And granted Faerûn reflects those rules and other game rules…however Faerûn is not defined by those rules, nor is it limited by them*. This is because the FRCS makes it quite clear that Faerûn is a living, breathing world that is filled with a near-limitless variety of free willed individuals whose goals and beliefs are nowhere near as simplified as someone looking at Faerûn through game-rules tinted glasses might presume to think. It just wouldn’t make sense for there to be frequent use of Clone, Resurrection and similar in Faerûn, because such frequent use would not accurately reflect the varied attitudes and goals of Faerûn’s diverse inhabitants, nor would it reflect the tumultuous, millennia long history that has served to shape modern Faerun and is itself quite independent of the game rules used to model it. ElGrecoETAC has illustrated this undeniable fact quite clearly. I imagine if this question were posed to Ed Greenwood at Candlekeep, he’d pretty much say the same thing. It is for these reasons that saying Clone and whatnot aren’t used much “for story reasons” isn’t quite the right answer to the thread topic question, but even so if someone does say this then they are at least partially right, and can’t be said to be replying with some sort of cop-out that ignores the central question. Finally I think it’s appropriate for a Dungeon Master to increase or decrease the use of these spells in his campaign depending on what he thinks makes the most sense for his campaign’s version of Faerûn. Dave M. *Yes Faerar, I’ve seen the light. ;) Really good points. And I do feel now that my initial questions have been answered. Thanks. :)
Matrix Sorcica 04-21-05, 03:04 AM	Shades of Ed vs jerryd, except jerryd read the sources.So you come to the conclusion that Ed Greenwood is incompetent, that all the posters explaining the situation here and citing the sources are liars, without even having read those very partial sources that are published? Do you think you are likely to be right? No, that's not what I'm saying at all. I think you misunderstand me. :( I haven't read the novels. The FRCS should be usable without. I was looking for reasons that might be given in the novels, since they are not given in the FRCS. :)
Faraer 04-21-05, 07:56 AM	*Yes Faerar, I’ve seen the light. ;)I'm glad to hear it! I hope some of what I was saying before makes more sense to you now. Sorcica, sorry if I misunderstood you, though I don't know how that squares with your comment about not holding water. Unfortunately, the underlying 'why things are like this' workings seem to be among the first bits that get cut from sourcebooks and novels alike. The perennial answer to 'why wasn't this explained in the book?' is 'what would you want removed to fit it in?'.
Matrix Sorcica 04-21-05, 09:00 AM	I'm glad to hear it! I hope some of what I was saying before makes more sense to you now. Sorcica, sorry if I misunderstood you, though I don't know how that squares with your comment about not holding water. Ah... I meant that those arguments IMO don't hold water from a game perspective. And since my questions and thoughts are based on the information given in the FRCS, and not information that may be in the novels, I don't think that reluctance from the gods' part etc. is a strong case. From a story/roleplay/novel perspective, it makes a lot more sense. It just brings me back to one of my original points, that thisinformation is not included in the FRCS. Which was why I asked in the first place :)
FearzThug 04-21-05, 09:55 AM	A little story comes into mind. DM (as NPC): Oh no, the High Marshal of our armies has been poisoned. Without him we will be overrun by the orcish horde except some brave adventurers go into the dungeon of bloody dismemberbent and recove the szepter of whacking (*hint hint*) PC1: Why the hassle? You can simply raise him and all is fine. NPC: Uhmm. We don't have...diamonds! yes, we don't have the diamonds required to do it! PC2: *stares at the loads of expensive decoration in the room which includes hundereds of diamonds* Then bring him over to the high temple of Tyr right across the street. They will have enough diamonds to raise him. NPC: Uhhhh, we already tried but Tyr doesn't want to raise our greatest warrior in the time of need. PC1: Oh, okay....Then ower cleric will do it. We wanted to sell those diamonds to finally get some money for our work but this is more important. *Waves to PC3 to begin casting* DM to PC3(slightly angry): All your powers vanish and your feel that your god is angry at you. PC3: What the? Sorry guys but Corellon decided that raising him so that this kingdom can defeat the orc army is the wrong thing to do. I can't do it. PC2:Oh well. Ok, I cast limited wish to raise him. Please give me the diamonds and... DM (starts yelling): Mystra cuts you from the weave and you loose all spellcasting power! PC2: What??? Mystra can't do this without a good reason! I... PC4: Give me the scroll of limited wish you have. I can use my Use Magic Device skill.. DM(screaming): THE SCROLL CRUMBLES TO DUST! And now go into this damm dungeon so that the story can continue or I will kill you all!!!! Hahahhahaha, priceless. But anyway. Yeah. I agree with Derren S, and therefor put myself at his side against the world it seems.
Mirtek 04-21-05, 11:05 AM	Whenever somebody dies we pay for a cleric to cast "Speak with dead" first to see if they want to come back, better that then waste the thousands on diamonds just to have the soul tell you "no thanks". Well, by the RAW, this doesn't work :P Because you're actually not speaking with the dead person, you're just speaking to the last version of the dead guy's memories still stored in the dead body. You don't actually contact the dead soul.
SpeedyMunky 04-21-05, 11:45 AM	Isn't it possible that the last version of his memories would include his feelings on being raised?
Mirtek 04-21-05, 11:58 AM	Isn't it possible that the last version of his memories would include his feelings on being raised? Only his last feelings on being raised prior to actually experiencing the joys of the afterlife in a heaven crafted to what he saw as his ideals in life. ;) PS: Anyone seen the episode of Buffy when she talks to Spike how terribly she feels becuase of being back on Earth after her ressurection basically pulled her out of heaven? She describes how beatiful it was and how lucky she felt and how the world now only seems hard and cold and ugly to her and how she suddenly feels as if earth were hell. Short summary of the episode In Afterlife, Buffy has just returned from the dead, literally. She is in shock, detached from her environment. We later learn that this is caused, not only by her physical resurrection, but by the sensation of being torn from a place of peace (which she assumes may be heaven) and the harshness of life on earth, which she compares to hell. This resurrection sets up her journey for the remainder of the season, in which she faces depression, resentment, alienation from her friends and uncharacteristic behaviour Her exact words: "Wherever I was, I was happy. At peace. I knew that everyone I cared about was all right. I knew it. Time didn't' mean anything. Nothing had form. But I was still me, you know? And I was warm... and I was loved. And I was finished. Complete." Maybe this is an arguement why people shouldn't get raised casually
Kuje31 04-21-05, 12:33 PM	From a story/roleplay/novel perspective, it makes a lot more sense. It just brings me back to one of my original points, that thisinformation is not included in the FRCS. Which was why I asked in the first place :) I don't want this to come across as a attack but you can't base every thing about FR from just the FRCS. There is over 15+ years or material that came out before the FRCS and that book barely covers maybe 1/4th of it. :) Even the 1e and 2e material maybe covers 1/4th of the material Ed, and others, have created for FR.
Preternatural 04-21-05, 12:39 PM	Short summary of the episode In Afterlife, Buffy has just returned from the dead, literally. She is in shock, detached from her environment. We later learn that this is caused, not only by her physical resurrection, but by the sensation of being torn from a place of peace (which she assumes may be heaven) and the harshness of life on earth, which she compares to hell. This resurrection sets up her journey for the remainder of the season, in which she faces depression, resentment, alienation from her friends and uncharacteristic behaviour Her exact words: "Wherever I was, I was happy. At peace. I knew that everyone I cared about was all right. I knew it. Time didn't' mean anything. Nothing had form. But I was still me, you know? And I was warm... and I was loved. And I was finished. Complete." Maybe this is an arguement why people shouldn't get raised casually That's probably why one recently resurrected Elf warrior had his memories/knowledge of his afterlife erased, or so I've been able to gather from the discussions and spoilers on the forums. As for why this information isn't in the FRCS, it's in the PHB, under the descriptions of the spells, clone, raise dead, resurrection, etc. There are limitations and costs to those spells. It's up to the DM and players to make something of them as they're just a basic idea and a general set of guidelines, like all the rules. Depending on the world/setting/DM, it could be made so that resurrections, etc. are a once in a millennium sort of thing. That's more true to the real world, considering the few myths and religious texts where people are actually given a second chance at life. You could also make it as common as you want in your setting/world/version of FR, then it would be something like a video game, where you get many chances, as D&D is a game afterall and it does suck to have a character die permanently (sometimes anyway). If you're looking for a rules/mechanical reason in novels, which are the ultimate form of fluff, then you're unlikely to find it. The most you'll probably find in something as story or plot based as a novel is indeed that gods don't allow it, they don't want to return, or one of the numerous story explanations given previously on this thread. Not something that can be coded into hard numbers, like it takes more XP or gp than anyone in the world has available or there's a % chance of success and on a failure the soul is lost forever. Some people also keep putting down the culture/beliefs aspect of this. A character's beliefs, morals, ethics, thoughts, motivations, emotions, etc. are the strongest rules. They are what drives a character, more so than that +5 Vorpal Greatsword of Inevitable Doom or that Mighty Magic Book of Apocolyptic Spells. Ask a religious person to do something against their religion and you will be met with great resistance. If you were asked to give up or change something important or familiar, then you would have a difficult time doing it as well, especially if it means drawing attention and questions from your society.
Derren S. 04-21-05, 01:05 PM	And we all know that most persons motivation will never allow them to accept a second chance...
Preternatural 04-21-05, 02:31 PM	And we all know that most persons motivation will never allow them to accept a second chance... If that's your opinion. I'm not arguing with it. What I am saying is that other people might think differently, a point which you don't see as valid. I don't know about you but if my afterlife consists of eternal bliss and happiness, coming back to a world where I will feel pain, hunger, sadness, etc. is the last thing on my list. Sure there is happiness in the living, mundane world, but the afterlife is always happy and good. Factor in that I have fulfilled my destiny/completed my affairs and left capable heirs to take care of whatever else needs be done. Why should I return? Why not step down and let my heirs and the new younger generation take over? Now if I was an evil bastard and my afterlife wasn't looking too pleasant, then I might consider second chances or plain old just never die. And we have seen characters in FR do that, there is Manshoon with his clones, the various liches like Larloch and Ssaz Tam, Ioulaum (not sure if he's evil) with the whole transfer his mind into an elder brain, and Telemont and his sons with becoming Shades. Notice how many of them don't really look for ways to return to life, but rather not die at all. Evil guys don't want to go to their afterlife. They want to stay in the living world, where they have power and aren't just another tortured petitioner tossed into a mosh pit with fiends. Goodly deities emphasize a nice afterlife, so there's no reason not to stay there or to return to the living world. Why did medieval knights risk their lives going on Crusade, a good part of it was that if they died fighting for Christianity, all their sins would be forgiving and that would give them a better chance of going to heaven. A lot of knights and warriors died on the Crusade, if not to fighting then to disease and accidents (Frederick Barbarossa supposed die after falling off his horse). Why would they risk their lives on such an errand when they could be sitting at home all safe and sound and life a full life. Because of their religion, their motivation, which is part of their culture. If a knight got into heaven and then was asked by his king and nation to return, I think he would not be too happy about it, he already did all he could for his people.
Derren S. 04-21-05, 02:37 PM	Two things: 1. Your afterlive might be verry happy, but as long as you are on teh fudge plane you don't have much from it. Standing neer a giant morsel crushing souls, the wall and sould stealing demons it wouldn't be so unlikely that you just want to escape fast! 2. (And that works against my and your argument) As discussed in a other thread, the souls are robbed of all their memory before they arrive on the fudge plane. So they don't know which afterlive awaits them and wouldn't know anything of their past believes but also of the responsibility they had.
Preternatural 04-21-05, 02:49 PM	Two things: 1. Your afterlive might be verry happy, but as long as you are on teh fudge plane you don't have much from it. Standing neer a giant morsel crushing souls, the wall and sould stealing demons it wouldn't be so unlikely that you just want to escape fast! If a character was a devout follower of a god and still ended up being nabbed by fiends in the Fugue plane, they might as well not bother worshipping any deity and take their chances on the wall. I think any god worth their portfolio would be able to protect their petitioners on the Fugue and bring them safely to their rightful plane. Certainly gods like Tyr, the injustice of being a good person but ending up in hell, or Helm, who is supposed to protect people. If their people get abducted, that would be a major violation of their own dogma and code. At the least they would send a legion of archons to go search for their missing followers. 2. (And that works against my and your argument) As discussed in a other thread, the souls are robbed of all their memory before they arrive on the fudge plane. So they don't know which afterlive awaits them and wouldn't know anything of their past believes but also of the responsibility they had. I thought the cosmology worked differently. If they lose their memory on the Fugue plane, then how do they make the choice on whether to return to the living or not, as stated in the description of Raise Dead/Resurrection. A cleric tries to raise his best friend since childhood, but if his his dead friend got his memory wiped he doesn't even know who the cleric is.
Derren S. 04-21-05, 02:56 PM	If a character was a devout follower of a god and still ended up being nabbed by fiends in the Fugue plane, they might as well not bother worshipping any deity and take their chances on the wall. I think any god worth their portfolio would be able to protect their petitioners on the Fugue and bring them safely to their rightful plane. Certainly gods like Tyr, the injustice of being a good person but ending up in hell, or Helm, who is supposed to protect people. If their people get abducted, that would be a major violation of their own dogma and code. At the least they would send a legion of archons to go search for their missing followers. But this doesn't happen. Demons raid the fudge plane and devils barter with those who wait on the fudge plane for their soul. Thats the way it works and unless they overdo it even Kelemvor doesn't do something against it. I thought the cosmology worked differently. If they lose their memory on the Fugue plane, then how do they make the choice on whether to return to the living or not, as stated in the description of Raise Dead/Resurrection. A cleric tries to raise his best friend since childhood, but if his his dead friend got his memory wiped he doesn't even know who the cleric is. http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=415522 Yes, they don't know who raises them even if it is their closest friend. But they also don't know if their live was fulfilling, if they have sworn oaths not to return, what they believed in life and what afterlive awaits them. And when we assume that the humans in the FR are psychologically similliar to humans here on earth many will have fear from the unknown and will gladly take the chance to live again.
Matrix Sorcica 04-21-05, 04:22 PM	I don't want this to come across as a attack but you can't base every thing about FR from just the FRCS. There is over 15+ years or material that came out before the FRCS and that book barely covers maybe 1/4th of it. :) Even the 1e and 2e material maybe covers 1/4th of the material Ed, and others, have created for FR. Well, yes and no, IMO. Of course I can't do that. On the other hand, I might just be starting out in 3e and just getting to know the realms. Hence, I get the FRCS. And in the FRCS, all this wealth of background and reasoning behind non-raises etc. is missing. See my point ;)
Matrix Sorcica 04-21-05, 04:24 PM	If you're looking for a rules/mechanical reason in novels, which are the ultimate form of fluff, then you're unlikely to find it. The most you'll probably find in something as story or plot based as a novel is indeed that gods don't allow it, they don't want to return, or one of the numerous story explanations given previously on this thread. Not something that can be coded into hard numbers, like it takes more XP or gp than anyone in the world has available or there's a % chance of success and on a failure the soul is lost forever. Some people also keep putting down the culture/beliefs aspect of this. A character's beliefs, morals, ethics, thoughts, motivations, emotions, etc. are the strongest rules. They are what drives a character, more so than that +5 Vorpal Greatsword of Inevitable Doom or that Mighty Magic Book of Apocolyptic Spells. Ask a religious person to do something against their religion and you will be met with great resistance. If you were asked to give up or change something important or familiar, then you would have a difficult time doing it as well, especially if it means drawing attention and questions from your society. Good points :)
Kuje31 04-21-05, 04:32 PM	Well, yes and no, IMO. Of course I can't do that. On the other hand, I might just be starting out in 3e and just getting to know the realms. Hence, I get the FRCS. And in the FRCS, all this wealth of background and reasoning behind non-raises etc. is missing. See my point ;) Nope I don't because the FRCS isn't the end all be all of FR lore. There's tons of things that are not explained in the FRCS or even in 1e and 2e lore. I mean hells look at my 2 Ed files, there's over 800 Word pages and a lot of that lore has never been detailed in sourcebooks or novels.
Preternatural 04-21-05, 06:39 PM	But this doesn't happen. Demons raid the fudge plane and devils barter with those who wait on the fudge plane for their soul. Thats the way it works and unless they overdo it even Kelemvor doesn't do something against it. While there hasn't been anything to say otherwise to what you've pointed out (Meaning yeah, you're probably right about this as far as I know), I personally really don't buy that. While some evil deities probably care less about their petitioners, I can't see that happening with a good deity, especially the likes of Tyr, Torm, and Helm, who let something like this happen, they're really not looking after their portfolios, letting their petitioners get taken by fiends. If their petitioners traded their souls, that's another matter. But good deities letting their petitioners slip through the cracks is just being a sad excuse for a god, neglecting their duties as described by their portfolios, doing what they do is what gets them worshippers and provides them with power. I find it thematically unpleasant that there is such a huge crack in this system. If it turned out that while waiting in Purgatory waiting for judgement day, you had a chance to be taken by the devil no matter how good you were in life, then I think any religion that has that will see a steep drop in worshippers. Though the Fugue is a plane for those to be judged, but does a devout follower really need to be judged. Yes, they don't know who raises them even if it is their closest friend. But they also don't know if their live was fulfilling, if they have sworn oaths not to return, what they believed in life and what afterlive awaits them. And when we assume that the humans in the FR are psychologically similliar to humans here on earth many will have fear from the unknown and will gladly take the chance to live again. True, then I find it hard to reconcile the text in the PHB about those Raise dead/Resurrect spells. They have nothing to base their judgement on, so there is really no reason for them not to return. Then all humans who get raised WILL choose to return, and that clause in the spell description just doesn't work and is useless and a waste of the two lines it's written. There is no reason for a person to stay in the gloomy Fugue plane. Though for the unknown aspect, even without memories of their past lives, it has to be asked if they know enough about their future to decide if that is a better fate than spending another few years on Toril. Do they know they will be judged and sent to another plane, or are they just a huddled mass of souls wandering the plane for no reason. Also they don't actually know that being raised is a good thing, since they have no idea who it is that's calling them back and technically no idea what sort of world Toril is, it could be a living hell for all they know. Especially if they know they ended up in a place as decrepid as the Fugue despite being an upright citizen, good samaritan, etc.
Derren S. 04-22-05, 01:43 AM	True, then I find it hard to reconcile the text in the PHB about those Raise dead/Resurrect spells. They have nothing to base their judgement on, so there is really no reason for them not to return. Then all humans who get raised WILL choose to return, and that clause in the spell description just doesn't work and is useless and a waste of the two lines it's written. There is no reason for a person to stay in the gloomy Fugue plane. The memory loss is FR specific, so it makes sense that the PHB doesn't mention it.
Preternatural 04-22-05, 01:35 PM	The memory loss is FR specific, so it makes sense that the PHB doesn't mention it. It was the same in 2e, the Planescape setting. But at least there, you ended up on the plane of your deity and not on some forsaken hell hole (literally) waiting to be judged even if you've been a good devoted person your whole life, where there's a chance fiends can slip in a grab you back to their realms. PGtF does say that divine servants of deities are allowed to enter the Fugue and retrieve the petititioners that belong to the plane of their gods. They don't say how soon that occurs, but it should make sense that it's rather expedient and swift. Fiends likely won't fight with celestials, archons and such just for a few souls, when there's so much more prey out there unguarded and unwanted.
Meta_FR_DM 04-23-05, 04:09 AM	Nope I don't because the FRCS isn't the end all be all of FR lore. Granted this is true, but Matrix Sorcica's point is that he doesn't have all of that lore. So Matrix Sorcica can base what he knows about FR from the FRCS, because that's all he's got. This is why any of the lore in the umpteen hundred FR books/media that exist which might contradict what Matrix Sorcica has figured out our infered on his/her own is irrelevant. His knowledge base is what he will take to the campaign he runs, which makes his decisions as a Dungeon Master entirely legitimate regardless of the books in print. Now if he comes here for clarification, of course that's another matter. But even then he can ditch what we tell him if it aint gonna fit with his campaign. Dave M.
Meta_FR_DM 04-23-05, 04:11 AM	I'm glad to hear it! I hope some of what I was saying before makes more sense to you now. Yes. Yes indeed. Dave -bows to the master- M.
Matrix Sorcica 04-23-05, 05:26 AM	Granted this is true, but Matrix Sorcica's point is that he doesn't have all of that lore. So Matrix Sorcica can base what he knows about FR from the FRCS, because that's all he's got. This is why any of the lore in the umpteen hundred FR books/media that exist which might contradict what Matrix Sorcica has figured out our infered on his/her own is irrelevant. His knowledge base is what he will take to the campaign he runs, which makes his decisions as a Dungeon Master entirely legitimate regardless of the books in print. Thanks! This is exactly what I've been trying to say. (Apparently, I'm not that strong with written words :weep: ) :)
Kuje31 04-23-05, 11:20 AM	Granted this is true, but Matrix Sorcica's point is that he doesn't have all of that lore. So Matrix Sorcica can base what he knows about FR from the FRCS, because that's all he's got. This is why any of the lore in the umpteen hundred FR books/media that exist which might contradict what Matrix Sorcica has figured out our infered on his/her own is irrelevant. His knowledge base is what he will take to the campaign he runs, which makes his decisions as a Dungeon Master entirely legitimate regardless of the books in print. Now if he comes here for clarification, of course that's another matter. But even then he can ditch what we tell him if it aint gonna fit with his campaign. Dave M. I never said he couldn't base his opinion on the FRCS. All I said is that the FRCS isn't the best source to always base opinions on because you can't pack 15+ years in a 300 page book. Hells even the 15+ years of source material is only maybe a 1/4th of the lore that exists in Ed's notes and or mind. And who said anything about Matrix couldn't change the lore? I know I didn't. So why bring that up? So I repeat basing something just on the material in the FRCS is fine but there's other lore that is better then that. Hells there's even a handful of us posters who have better memories about lore then what is in the FRCS and we already posted that lore. We really aren't discussing his campaign anyhow, we are discussing canon FR and how raise dead, etc, works in canon FR. Sure ALL of us can change that but then we wouldn't really have a discussion here except for every ones homebrew version of how its supposed to be.
Meta_FR_DM 04-23-05, 03:11 PM	Kuje, you said he can't base everything about the Realms from the FRCS. My point was that for practical reasons he can do exactly that, because that's all he can do. My second point was that Matrix Sorcica can come here for clarification and advice (as he did when he started the thread) but even then he's not beholden to whatever canon and non-canon information we provide. The reason I brought point 2 up was because it recognizes the truth of your statement (there's far, far more to FR lore than the FRCS) but also refutes it (i.e. that lore can be ignored). Sure ALL of us can change that but then we wouldn't really have a discussion here except for every ones homebrew version of how its supposed to be. Which would be an incredibly useful discussion now that you mention it, since this would allow us to move away from what the rulebooks say and avoid more pointless arguments over whether those books are right or wrong, to how we (as Dungeon Maseters) deal with Raise Dead and similar for NPCs and whatnot in our campaigns. That's where the meat is really at, so to speak. Dave M.