| Post/Author/DateTime | Post |
|---|---|
| Charles Phipps10-08-07, 08:03 AM | What changes have you made from canon in your games and why? How did they turn out in your games. Some of the Changes I've made to my game are as follows... Elminster: I've reduced his level to 20th and have removed Epic Levels from my Realms with it recognized the "human limit" for all intents and purposes. Elminster's Alignment is also True Neutral now with his job to support Magic in all of its form, irregardless of the measure. Furthermore, Elminster has a patholical phobia of directly intervening in affairs with a Prime Directive that he's only broken twice and both when the entire world of Toril was about to be destroyed. He, nevertheless, indirectly interferes by mentoring PCs and providing advice on pretty much every subject in the world. He also indirectly protects Shadowdale, and not other locale, by the fact that he will protect himself. Fzoul: Has the odd quirk in our games of being genuinely honorable. He's still an evil madman obsessed with world domination but he always abides by the spirit of his word (unless ordered directly not to by Bane), respects worthy adversaries, and is a genuinely good leader with a loathing of wasting life. Fzoul's Zhents are a marked contrast to those recruited by Manshoon with most loyal to him. Manshoon is pretty much the opposite, being the treacherous rattlesnake we all know and love. He, however, is a cultured Doctor Doom style villain and is also a sincere worshipper of the goddess Mystra (which puts him at odds with Fzoul for other reasons). Manshoon's Zhents are the collection of dagger in your back murderers and cheats we all know and loathe. Kelemvor: Kelemvor's origins are far different in our game with him being chosen as the God of Death by Ao immediately afterwards (and he's a different person as well but that's immaterial). Kelemvor is True Neutral and the God of Balance in addition to his other crafts. He attempts to keep all races of Faerun from exterminating one another which results in the more powerful members of his church brokering odd peaces. Cyric: Cyric is, simply put, a genius. He's eight steps ahead of every other God except Savras and Shar and he's even able to put a few over them on occasion. Cyric's Church is one of the most widely accepted and respected in the Realms, up there with Lathander and Chaunteau. This is because the Dark Sun's priests have free license to make up whatever dogma they want so long as they pilfer the locals of coin, sacrifice, and fearful veneration. He's the god of Politics and Betrayal while also being perfectly sane. The Knights of the Shield serve him rather than Gargauth (whose just an archfiend). Simbul: Is a straight 20th level Sorceress. She's also still CN with the people of her country viewing her as a "Necessary Evil." The Simbul routinely causes widespread misery and havoc by turning people into toads, burning down houses, and killing people who annoy her. This mixed with acts of equal good and decency. She's extremely petulant, selfish, and a little insane. Selune: Selune is the Greater Goddess of Ascension, Healing, and Enlightenment in the Realms. She's also the Goddess of Primordial Good. Shar: Is the Goddess of Primordial Evil. |
| Fire_Wraith10-08-07, 09:34 AM | I don't really do much to the NPCs. They're not meant to be used in combat, in my games - rather, they're meant to be used as plot devices, and sparingly so - the appearance of even one major NPC should be a rare, special occasion. If a DM starts tossing them around casually, it becomes just that - trite and bland. If anyone ever does get into a fight with them, I will likely draw up specific statistics for that particular purpose, though I don't really have any intention of it. Plot devices are best killed through plot methods, not hack and slash. ;) Rather, I tend to make changes to weave in my own plots and devices into the backdrop of the Realms, and make adjustments for how I want to run things. For instance, making subtle alterations to a city, or to an organization, changing who may be in power, or which groups have influence where - these are the sorts of things I will do. To draw on an example, Arabel of my campaign has been detailed extensively, based in part on (the prewar) Volo's guide. However, a number of alterations were made, mainly under the excuse that the rebuilding after the sacking of the city by the orcs led to many things being altered - notably among them, a somewhat dense overpopulated slum quarter, where none had existed before. Another would be in terms of Tilverton. Where the FRCS describes it primarily as ruins around a gaping crater of shadow (as I recall), several others and I came up with a more fanciful idea, based loosely how I read a certain short story from one of the FR compilations (whose name and author I fear I have forgotten), set in the Tilverton Ruins, to turn the city into a massive dungeonscape. Thus, Tilverton in my Realms is a haunted ruin, cloaked in perpetual twilight, and infested by shadows. Thus far several adventuring parties have explored both the old Council Tower, and parts of the famous sewers below the city, and found disturbing things... well, the groups that survived did, at least. :D |
| Suin Bahhar10-08-07, 10:00 AM | I use the VAST lore of every area for inspiration mostly. I've never used written 3ed NPC's as of yet and am doing just fine. My campaign set in Chessenta uses 2ed lore mostly so the NPC's can be modified to my needs. The rulers and shakers of the cities are very unlikely to meet my PC's personally so the contacts they meet are mostly generic middlemen. I use a third party book called "Everybody Else" that stats very specific commoners like bartenders, bouncers, courtesans, dockworkers, tanners and others. Very handy thusfar. |
| Diffan10-08-07, 10:31 AM | Check out this post to see what changes I'd like to make to my own Realms. FR 4E(beta): http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?p=14023542#post14023542 |
| Valgard10-08-07, 11:00 AM | After the War of the Spider Queen series, I have changed the names of all people, all places, all deities, and all planes, and I am not actually registering or following anything that now happens in the Realms. :confused: Mmm... no wait, I didn't do it yet, I'm going to do it when I finally see the 4E FRCS. :eek: |
| Alediran10-08-07, 12:10 PM | I follow cannon lore, at least until 4ed gets out and then if I don't like the new realms. |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin10-08-07, 03:18 PM | I'll make this quick and simply state which novels and adventures I'm ignoring in my Realms. That means I don't consider the events therein to have taken place. Novels denoted with "(undecided)" means it's up in the air if I'll ignore them in part or entirely: --The Last Mythal series --The Lady Penitent series --The Haunted Land series --The Watercourse series --The Baldur's Gate series (novels, not the games) --The Empryan Odysee (sp?) series --War of the Spider Queen series (undecided) --The Hunter's Blades series (undecided) --Transitions series (most likely) --The Twilight War (undecided) --recent Undermountain adventure (because of the infamous prelude) --recent super-adventure series: Cormyr, Shadowdale, Anauroch --pretty much everything after the beginning of the year 1375 DR in the GHotR...and some stuff before it, too. Just because I'm ignoring a novel or adventure doesn't mean it's not a good novel to read or has no merit as a playable adventure, it just means it doesn't fit it well (if at all) with my personal version of the Realms. This list may be incomplete and is also subject to change, although I can say without doubt that there are things I will never accept in my Realms, period (such as the events in the Last Mythal series--which, by the way, I disliked as novels as well as dispensers of Realmslore). As you can see, I have a history of renouncing certain FR products--this is nothing new for me, and it did not start only recently. |
| Dark Wizard10-08-07, 06:21 PM | I like most of your changes Charles. I handle most of the background characters and gods in a similar manner. With the exception of Cyric. In my game he's not a genius so much as just very lucky due to his madness and hyper-chaotic nature. Even he can't keep up with all the things he's started, but he makes up for things by volume and quantity. Throw enough variability into a system and something good for you is bound to happen then you dive into that aspect more until it is exhausted. On occasions he comes out ahead of the other gods and organizations purely because even he doesn't know what will actually happen. Of course all of these plots he hatches are always pushing for the evil or negative spin. I reduced him in power a bit. The Bane and Mask in my campaign come closer to your version of Cyric. I added a good amount to my Realms. I put a massive chains of magic-haunted islands between the Moonshaes and Evermeet, sort of a twisted take on Ed's original Anchorome and Moonshae isles, plus a big helping of my own ideas. I developed Duuthskor into a remote, isolationist Island Kingdom (Ed's suggestion was precisely what I had in mind). I had the western Harpers turn Berdusk and parts of the Western Heartlands into a major nation with Iriaebor and Scournubel as the other components in a Silver Marches style set up (but less nice and more dysfunctional and corrupt-capable). Kara-Tur differs vastly from the presentation in the old sub-setting books, but I only have details enough as hints for my games. (I am unfortunately not as prolific as the designers, the freelancers or some of the posters here.) I split Mystra and Midnight up. Mystra is fully LN. Midnight is a NG demigoddess who is part of Selune's entourage. Selune herself is now a greater goddess. I never read the Avatar trilogy, so I have no basis for Midnights character except the name. If I have an idea I feel is too much for my gaming Realms (something way out there), I throw them into a Realms rip-off setting I'm slowing putting together. That's my alternate reality where basically anything goes, though I try to keep to what my gut tells me is the feel of the actual Realms. Imitation is the best form of flattery. (Interestingly it's almost the direct opposite of what the 4E changes hint for the published Realms, go figure.) |
| Xaean10-08-07, 07:02 PM | Bahamut & Tiamat: The deities of the most powerful species on Faerun are Greater deities - don't get me wrong, they have no more humanoid worshippers than in the official Realms, but I don't think it makes much sense that the god of goblins is superior to the gods of dragons, despite the fact that there are more goblins than dragons... Ascension of Amaunator: In my campaign the Church of the Eternal Sun poses a threat to most sane people in Faerun as they seek to turn Faerun into a place similar to the Keep of the Eternal Sun (Amaunator's divine realm), thereby disrupting the Balance of Nature. Most higher ranking priests have already turned into aximatic creatures with perfectly symetric facial features. They no longer cast shadows. Daelegoth Orndeir is still LN but in his fanatiscm no less dangerous than an evil villain of equal power. He has already converted the Dragon Coast to Amaunator's faith and currently prepares for war on the countries along the Sea of Fallen Stars. He is many ways similar to the Kingpriest of Istar in the Dragonlance setting. The events of the Lady Penitent trilogy has not yet happenend in my campaign - and I doubt that I will ever let them happen. |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin10-08-07, 07:57 PM | I had the western Harpers turn Berdusk and parts of the Western Heartlands into a major nation with Iriaebor and Scournubel as the other components in a Silver Marches style set up (but less nice and more dysfunctional and corrupt-capable). Heh. One of my characters is trying to do exactly that, although she wants it to be a "goodly", hopefully not-too-corruptable type of place.:) |
| Mr_Miscellany10-08-07, 08:05 PM | I like this thread. Lots. :::::::::::: In general, I just use the Realms as is, with all its lore from before the Grey Box to now, as needed, to throw out plot hooks to my players and as a resource to help me respond to what my players do. Nothing is sacred. |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin10-08-07, 08:09 PM | I like this thread too. Choosing to disregard what's considered canon can be very liberating. |
| Butterface10-08-07, 08:27 PM | I follow the canon pretty strictly, but it's fascinating to see the changes others have made. I liked all the changes the OP made, especially the take on Elminster. :) |
| johnkretzer10-08-07, 08:41 PM | I actualy stick close to canon..except for PC action...anything that happens in a book the PCs get first crack at getting involved. What they do is completely changes what happens...this lead s to lot of things... I pretty much ignored the gods books because I don't like how they portray the gods. They are also a few other thing that I just ignore completely in that I just don't like it. But the only thing that I changed that was actualy canon(as in souce book not a novel) was the slaying of Leira. Cyric only thinks he did and well all I can say is well he is in for a nasty surprise...I am glad I had the foresight to save Leira as that little goddess will being saving my campaign from the threat of author fiat and GDPCs. What is that old saying never try to con a con man(or woman) :evillaugh |
| johnkretzer10-08-07, 08:46 PM | Elminster: I've reduced his level to 20th and have removed Epic Levels from my Realms with it recognized the "human limit" for all intents and purposes. Elminster's Alignment is also True Neutral now with his job to support Magic in all of its form, irregardless of the measure. Furthermore, Elminster has a patholical phobia of directly intervening in affairs with a Prime Directive that he's only broken twice and both when the entire world of Toril was about to be destroyed. He, nevertheless, indirectly interferes by mentoring PCs and providing advice on pretty much every subject in the world. He also indirectly protects Shadowdale, and not other locale, by the fact that he will protect himself. Actualy except for the level that is pretty much as he was always intended...Heck I think in 1st edition he was 20th level. Though I would probably restore his orginal CN(w/ good tendencies) Alignment....Also he spends a great amount of time on different planes... The other are interesting. Not the direction I would have gone with all of them( :rolleyes: Cyric) but good thoughts. Oh can you tell yet I am not a fan of Cyric???? |
| Charles Phipps10-08-07, 11:44 PM | The other are interesting. Not the direction I would have gone with all of them( :rolleyes: Cyric) but good thoughts. Oh can you tell yet I am not a fan of Cyric???? Actually, my issue with Cyric is that I am a fan of Loki archetypes and tricksters in Forgotten Realms. He's the God of intrigue and God of lies. The problem is that the books portray him as a fool. Being the God of Intrigue, Lies, and Illusions means to me that He is the absolute *BEST* in the universe at it. So he was a natural for being the source of Chaos and horrible pranks in the Realms. But yeah, he is a crappy villain in canon, which is why I had to remake him. |
| MarkusTay6310-09-07, 12:59 AM | Cyric as Loki - I like it. :D I usually stick to canon, except for all those times when I do not stick to canon, which is pretty often. ;) I like to add organizations from books and other settings. I'm a sucker for a good organization (or evil for that matter). Especially ones with secretive plotting females (and there are PLENTY of those). I have a group similar to the Aes Sedai/Bene Gesserit type of governmental manipulators. I also have a group of 'witches' that follow Loviatar, similar to the Mord Sith. An all-female mercenary company, designed along the lines of Greek Amazons. Plenty more too - the more covert, the better. I have a Torturer's Guild, as well, from the Book of the New Sun series. I also like to add races, like the minotaurs of Krynn and the Ogier from WoT. |
| johnkretzer10-09-07, 01:59 AM | An all-female mercenary company, designed along the lines of Greek Amazons. You do know these already existed right? They are from the island of Ixinos. Their merc company was detailed in I think It is on the tip of the tongue. That is what I love about the Realms it canon is so broad that you might think you breaking canon but you are not...:) |
| johnkretzer10-09-07, 02:02 AM | Actually, my issue with Cyric is that I am a fan of Loki archetypes and tricksters in Forgotten Realms. He's the God of intrigue and God of lies. The problem is that the books portray him as a fool. Being the God of Intrigue, Lies, and Illusions means to me that He is the absolute *BEST* in the universe at it. So he was a natural for being the source of Chaos and horrible pranks in the Realms. But yeah, he is a crappy villain in canon, which is why I had to remake him. Yeah but I don't like decpetion, illusions, and trickery be the domains of a evil being...I am too much of a Bugs Bunny fan to consider them to be evil... And I do plan on making a better villian...just not at the expense of the other gods. But hey it is your game and I could like it. As long he does um eventualy get caught...I mean even Loki didn't have a perfect track record. |
| Charles Phipps10-09-07, 02:13 AM | But hey it is your game and I could like it. As long he does um eventualy get caught...I mean even Loki didn't have a perfect track record. Actually, I do take note that everything in the world seems to exist to hurt Cyric. In our game, I combined the Supreme Throne with the Abyss. Cyric managed to crawl all the way to Greater God status and he rules over the deepest pit in creation. Plus, I liked the idea he's now bound there in it as a prison. And Cyric may be hyper-intelligent and crafty but I also tend to think he outsmarts himself. Let's face it, thoughts and intrigue he may master but the guy can never content himself and any gains will be squandered in the next attempt. Good job. Talos is the guy I use for humor in an odd bit. I tend to run him as the God of Chaos and not so much CE as CN with the fact that he destroys everything indiscriminately. He's a Force of Nature rather than a monster and rather easilly directed. He's definitely not the crafty schemer of the Druidhome Trilogy. |
| MarkusTay6310-09-07, 02:15 AM | Bugs Bunny is an uber-villain! Only beaten out by that dastardly Woody Woodpecker! :eek: Seriously, have you ever seen the Family Guy episode where Elmer Fudd beats Bugs to death with a bat? I laugh until I have tears in my eyes. |
| Charles Phipps10-09-07, 02:24 AM | And since I commented about Cyric, I'll also point out Bane's role. Bane: Bane is pretty much the unofficial leader of the gods of evil. While Shar is THE EMBODIMENT OF ALL DARKNESS, Bane has the ability to get people together and enforce allegiance from pretty much everyone else in darkness. I also place him in the Nine Hells post ressurection with absolute command over all the Devils in the universe, since this is appropriate for me. The Serpent at the bottom of the caverns isn't Asmodeus but Bane's Astral leftover from the Time of Troubles. One thing I do make is that Bane is a brilliant military commander, politician, and orator amongst the gods but he's also fundamentally a thug. Banism is not a religion of politicians or subtley. It's very much the "I will burn your land to the ground if you don't serve me." I do, however, use the Lawgiver religion from Ravenloft to describe why people follow it. "People suck and they need tyrants to be obeyed unquestionably" appeals to rulers in Faerun. |
| johnkretzer10-09-07, 03:12 AM | Bugs Bunny is an uber-villain! Only beaten out by that dastardly Woody Woodpecker! :eek: Seriously, have you ever seen the Family Guy episode where Elmer Fudd beats Bugs to death with a bat? I laugh until I have tears in my eyes. My reaction to that is pretty much that same as my reaction to Cyric killing Mystra. Especialy since Bugs Bunny is about 10000% better then Family Guy can dream of being... |
| Fire_Wraith10-09-07, 08:06 AM | My reaction to that is pretty much that same as my reaction to Cyric killing Mystra. Especialy since Bugs Bunny is about 10000% better then Family Guy can dream of being... ...the only difference being that what happens to Bugs Bunny in a family guy episode isn't considered canon for Looney Tunes, so we're not stuck with it. ;) |
| MerrikCale10-09-07, 10:53 PM | Mostly I customize the general areas of play. Neverwinter has grown as a shipping source for the growing Silver Marches. A road through Neverwinter Woods has increased caravan traffic. Plus, I have an order of vampire knights in power in Nesme after its fall. Taken advantage of a beaten populace |
| Crazygx3410-10-07, 01:27 AM | I'm just trying to make big change in some rule and area. The map it the same and all area still the same. But I try to integrate some new city and kingdoms or just take a place like Zenthil zentharim make them the new world order more define country and border like in the real world. Put city like Sharn city of tower on Lanthan and an aerodrome near with a railroad going there. Some kind of subway going to an undewater facility with submarine. I want to put some kind of big underwater city like in star-wars 1 but I don't know where yet. It will be surely aquatic elves or another race with better buck. I want to put an floating city but floating naturaly on a big rock. Maybe a city like Oz all in emerald. And make nimbral like camelot but with all the thing already there pegasus and griffon. I will put more sexy girls to power of important place... And fianaly for now the god and goddess will not be such present in surface, they will still make there little war but not take to much place. A demon have to still the power to invade the land without to be destroyed by god if he want to. The god still control the scene but with more passive way. Like you see I just try to integrete some cool thing from other world.:) |
| johnkretzer10-10-07, 01:34 AM | Actually, my issue with Cyric is that I am a fan of Loki archetypes and tricksters in Forgotten Realms. He's the God of intrigue and God of lies. The problem is that the books portray him as a fool. Being the God of Intrigue, Lies, and Illusions means to me that He is the absolute *BEST* in the universe at it. So he was a natural for being the source of Chaos and horrible pranks in the Realms. But yeah, he is a crappy villain in canon, which is why I had to remake him. Also how do you balance this veiw with him also being the God of Maddness(or did he lose that?) |
| johnkretzer10-10-07, 01:35 AM | Bugs Bunny is an uber-villain! Only beaten out by that dastardly Woody Woodpecker! :eek: Seriously, have you ever seen the Family Guy episode where Elmer Fudd beats Bugs to death with a bat? I laugh until I have tears in my eyes. I think you are trying to hurt my feelings for pointing out that your greek amazon merc. already existed in the Realms....they couldn't do that to Bugs :weep: ...is nothing sacred anymore? :D |
| Charles Phipps10-10-07, 02:41 AM | Also how do you balance this veiw with him also being the God of Maddness(or did he lose that?) I tend to view Talos makes a much more appropriate God of Madness in my campaigns. The God of Chaos and Destruction seems like a good guy who enjoys spreading around irrationality. No, my Cyric is quite sane now that the True Life of Cyric was read. Finders keepers for Talos. |
| johnkretzer10-10-07, 03:09 AM | I tend to view Talos makes a much more appropriate God of Madness in my campaigns. The God of Chaos and Destruction seems like a good guy who enjoys spreading around irrationality. No, my Cyric is quite sane now that the True Life of Cyric was read. Finders keepers for Talos. But I like him as the mad man he was. He was interesting then. |
| Charles Phipps10-10-07, 04:07 AM | But I like him as the mad man he was. He was interesting then. To me, it makes no sense. Cyric is the God of Murder, Intrigue, Lies, and Illusions. Do madmen make good politicians and plotters? His portfolio is dominated by concepts that make it the absolute PERFECT God for someone interested in sneaking his way to the top of the Realms via Machiavellian scheming and backroom deal making. How does madness fit the concept of the ultimate God of Schemers? |
| johnkretzer10-10-07, 04:35 AM | To me, it makes no sense. Cyric is the God of Murder, Intrigue, Lies, and Illusions. Do madmen make good politicians and plotters? His portfolio is dominated by concepts that make it the absolute PERFECT God for someone interested in sneaking his way to the top of the Realms via Machiavellian scheming and backroom deal making. How does madness fit the concept of the ultimate God of Schemers? To him getting the decepetion and illusion made no sense. So I did the opposite from you I hade him embrace the madness. Shrug. Either way works to make him more interesting. |
| Stigger10-10-07, 08:03 AM | I just ignore his existance entirely to be honest... |
| Charles Phipps10-10-07, 08:36 AM | Yes, and you know it :censored: me off to be honest. Because, you know when I ask a Cyric question, 2-3 answers on any thread will always be "Just ignore him" or some other flippant comment. For guys who actually like using Cyric, it's pretty annoying elitist dismissal. It's like Cyric shot player's dog. |
| Suin Bahhar10-10-07, 09:52 AM | Agreed. |
| MarkusTay6310-10-07, 11:27 AM | I ignore him too. :P I like the idea of replacing him with Loki, and then maybe ret-conning Cyric into something closer to his (sane) early human self, like a god of thieves. I ignore him because I brought Myrkul back in a second RSE (along with Bhaal), so he didn't really have much left to go with. Perhaps I'll have him absorb Mask and whatever is left of Vhaerun. Or better yet, have both of those gods absorbed by Sung Chiang (the god with 3 faces ;) ), and let Cyric be the demigod of madness or some such. Hmmmm.... maybe it's just better to ignore Cyric after all.... :D |
| Charles Phipps10-10-07, 11:42 AM | Yeah, that's basically the gist of it. Every post drips with contempt for Cyric as he's the most broken god of all time. That he's something like the Flumph of Forgotten Realms. Something to be made fun of or ignored. But it boils down to it.....why? What's wrong with him? What's broken about the concept of a Greater CE Trickster God? |
| msatran10-10-07, 11:45 AM | The problem is the madness portfolio. Not only is he a trickster god, he's CUCKOO. Nuts, crazy, round the bend, flipped his lid, gone bonkers, playing the great brain kazoo! So he doesn't have time to trick anyone. He's too busy gibbering in his shorts! |
| MarkusTay6310-10-07, 12:01 PM | My big problem with Cyric - The god he IS is nothing like the man he WAS. I liked Cyric at the beginning of the Avatar trilogy, much better then the borig Kelemvor or the stereo-typical Midnight. He was a cool character. Then he had a 'turning point', but I can't really remember why - was it because Midnight spurned his advances? I can't recall... Either way, Kel was a snore-fest. Midnight was an idiot for choosing him over Cyric. Personaly, it smacks of a level of shallowness that I truly hate in a goddess of magic. She was a mage, for Chrisakes! So she goes for the dumb lug with the big muscles? Wouldn't a strong, intelligent women want someone approaching her intelectual equal? Cyric was at least clever... So these three go through all of that crap together, and Cyric, who should have been a hero, turns out to be their arch enemy. :uh-huh: So you see, it's not Cyric people actually have a problem with. It's the assinine way his character was developed. Why did they make him insane? He was more interesting as a clever plotter... |
| Charles Phipps10-10-07, 12:14 PM | I think Prince of Lies portrayed Cyric as somewhat akin to Satan. The Cyric there was "Ho Ho Ho Ho" evil on levels that couldn't really be digested. The guy practically oozed evil for evils sake and even abused Fzoul left and right. From there, Madness wasn't that difficult a leap. |
| GothicDan10-10-07, 02:35 PM | I thought you meant that he was like Satan because he had to deal with being in divine trials of good and evil. Only he's the defense attorney for evil instead of the prosecuting one. |
| Charles Phipps10-10-07, 03:06 PM | I thought you meant that he was like Satan because he had to deal with being in divine trials of good and evil. Only he's the defense attorney for evil instead of the prosecuting one. No, I mean he's utterly without anything good and is a cariacture of a being. Cyric in Prince of Lies was more like an Archdemon than a Realms god. I prefer a more nuanced approach. |
| MarkusTay6310-10-07, 03:23 PM | Hence most people's dislike of said god. TSR and later WotC butchered him, and now people have no clue how to use him. |
| johnkretzer10-10-07, 05:59 PM | Yeah, that's basically the gist of it. Every post drips with contempt for Cyric as he's the most broken god of all time. That he's something like the Flumph of Forgotten Realms. Something to be made fun of or ignored. But it boils down to it.....why? What's wrong with him? What's broken about the concept of a Greater CE Trickster God? Nothing is wrong with a CE trickster god...I just perfer the old CN trickster goddess. But I think what annoys me about Cyric is two things... 1) Cyric is like the player who plays a evil character(or plays neutral character but is really evil) just to screw with the other players' characters. 2) I am tired of seeing him winning. It is the thing he has done just bothers me...and the fact that he continues to get away with it. Also the fact the authors think he is a intersting character that needs to be written more about..as they have showed him to be mean he will be continueously in my face annoying me. True both of the above reasons are how he is portrayed...but that is all I have to go on. Personaly while I perfer Leira to Cyric any day...I could still like the way you do Cyric which is better then the way they do. |
| Keahi1910-10-07, 06:11 PM | Well also I would like Tempus to get some screen time. Or GOND!!! I love GOnd. Why aren't there more Lanten books and schemes? It's such an unusual place that begs to be written about and no one does. Why is that? My own customization of the Realms? Well I transferred the map of Toril and put it on Earth, placing each race into a different area. Example: You can now play a drow with a German accent. YES I ALLOW IT!!! Actually I've built quite a neat world and have lots of details, anyways that's my customizations. If ya want more, uhh just ask I guess. And I hate Cyric too. Bane is alot cooler. |
| Stigger10-10-07, 07:34 PM | My essential problem with Cyric is that he's something of a moron... a moron who squanders his resources, his clergy, his time, and his efforts to have fun with the whole Strife thing... he's been portrayed as an insane joke who can't see what either of his hands are doing and doesn't really seem bothered by it. I have a hard time seeing just how he isn't supposed to be a joke. Sure this bit with Shar towards taking out Mystra shows that perhaps he does have a brain in there, but by now it's really out of character for him so what could have been a cool idea is just plain near-impossible for me to swallow at this point... maybe if they had used Loviater, Beshaba, or Talos, then I'd have much less of a problem with it. I could see one of those deities having the brains and drive to pull something like that off, Talos in particular considering how much he contended with Mystra before to get part of her portfolio away from her. Beshaba I think would have been the best choice though, as things could just always go against anyone who she decided to oppose, and is insane enough to actually find the whole end result amusing, just because she can. I could have really dug my teeth into that one actually... |
| Keahi1910-11-07, 12:07 AM | If only they asked us before hand. |
| Charles Phipps10-11-07, 12:30 AM | My main problem with Cyric is the fact that the Developers seem to be unable to get it through their skulls that... 1. He's a Greater God. 2. He's ridiculously intelligent and wise. His stats say so. 3. Cyric destroyed the Goddess of Intrigue, so he's got a brain there somewhere. Let's face it, in every Novel Cyric appears, he's treated as the most terrifying evil in the entire Forgotten Realms. F-ing OGHMA, a Neutral Deity, willingly teams up with Mystra and Kelemvor to try and take him down because Cyric is that much of a threat to the entire world. Worse, we understand that if ALL of the gods attempt to team up on Cyric then the world is likely to be destroyed. He's that powerful. Lords of Darkness's section on Cyric was what I was looking forward to and I had to actually throw the damn book across the room because I was so brassed off about what I read. THIS is the best they could come up with for his church? That Cyric indiscriminately recruits people and then plays them off against each other? I was appalled. The Knights of the Shield are what Cyric's Church SHOULD look like. A bunch of dedicated power brokers and makers of STRIFE in order to PROFIT from it. Honestly, Gargauth would be swatted like a frickin' BUG if he ever chose to stand up against Cyric because his entire powers revolve around accumulating power. People complain about Kelemvor being a Lawful Neutral Deity In Name Only. That he's actually a Lawful Good rewarder of Brave Behavior and Champion against the Undead. I talk about the fact that Cyric, The God of Frickin' LIES is treated as a guy who couldn't talk his way out of a paper bag. I mean, seriously, TALONA or Beshaba are supposed to be better at arranging plots than the God of Intrigue? WTFaerun!? I suppose my problem is I'm looking at Cyric's role as a God and his Portfolio first along with how I would use a Greater Chaotic Evil God than letting canon influence me. |
| Stigger10-11-07, 01:11 AM | He used to be neutral evil as far as I recall... which I still tend to think of him as for some reason. As to his portfolio, he didn't really 'earn' those with much of anything besides being in the right place at the right time, with the right avatar masquerading as a sword in hand... wasn't because of some overwhelming ingenuity or intelligence on his part beyond being opportunistic, at least as far as I recall. As to Talona and Beshaba being better at plotting, I'd say resoundingly yes, they are. He's got too much power and too much mortality left over, at least as far as has been portrayed, to bother with subtlety. He's a blunt instrument, where as they, as smaller fish in the pond, must rely on more subtle, less likely to get them obliterated methods, methods. Scalpels to his warhammer as it were... |
| Charles Phipps10-11-07, 01:35 AM | Well Bane didn't earn Tyranny, Strife, or any of that either. They were just given to him by Jergal. However, when he recieved them, he automatically BECAME Strife/Tyranny/etc. I guess a part of me just assumes that when Cyric killed Leirra it was because he defeated her in an intellectual combat off-camera. That he proved himself worthier than Mask and any other god of being the Lord of Lies and Illusions. That may be colloring my perception. I'll just write off most of his appearances as Bhaal's Portfolio and Myrkul's messing with his head along with the Cyranishad. |
| Stigger10-11-07, 01:41 AM | Well, if you recall, that lovely little Trio of Evil had gone through tremendous effort to get to the point where they could even confront Jergal, so I don't think it too much of a stretch to say that they did indeed earn it on a much more profound level than Cyric ever did... |
| Keahi1910-11-07, 01:54 AM | AHEM!! I'm curious what everyone does that seperates from the canon of Faerun for their games. Ummm keep em coming. |
| Stigger10-11-07, 01:59 AM | Well, I incorporate a lot of the better elements of White Wolf's old World of Darkness stuff, mostly from Mage, Werewolf, and Changeling, ditching a lot of the pale and tragic, gother than thou crap they started piling on towards the end... at least in my own 'personal campaign'. For the one with the players I'm not intimately familiar with, I pretty much ignore 95% of the novels and stick mostly to what was written for 2e lorewise, using the 3.5 rules. |
| Keahi1910-11-07, 02:07 AM | Cool, I took Faerun and our world and smooshed them together. I've developed a system of gods and changes that occured as to when our world divurged from it's normal time and went into the other. (About 7 AD actually) Mine follows all the rules, but takes place in 1507 rather than 1375. And I eventually will kill of Cyric just because I hate him. Well actually there is a major reason, but it takes mixtures of our stuff and others. |
| johnkretzer10-11-07, 02:17 AM | Well Bane didn't earn Tyranny, Strife, or any of that either. They were just given to him by Jergal. However, when he recieved them, he automatically BECAME Strife/Tyranny/etc. In life Bane examplfied Strife, Tyranny and etc. He earned them because that is what he was. Cyric was just in the right place at the right time. I guess a part of me just assumes that when Cyric killed Leirra it was because he defeated her in an intellectual combat off-camera. That he proved himself worthier than Mask and any other god of being the Lord of Lies and Illusions. That may be colloring my perception. You see this what kills me...you want us to respect his Int and Wis. Yet you discount Leira's int. Also it was Mask who set her up and Cyric was just the thug with the sword...this is what always been my problem because Mask was a sword. What did he say, "Oh hi Leira you want to come out and play...oh don't worry about the guy who is holding me frothing at the mouth or anything he is really nice." I mean sure Mask can be convincing but come on. You also say that Cyric should be the best at Trickery and Deception...well shouldn't Leira have been that too? That is why in my Realms Leira tricked Cyric and Mask into thinking that they had killed her...she also has maintained the illusion that it is Cyric granting her old worshippers spells. To me this is much more the greatest decpetion. Also you said that it is like Cyric killed our dog with some reaction you get on Cyric...no he did worse then that he was the tool to kill the Weave...which to me is the most important thing about the Realms...I would trade all the gods in the pantheon to keep it. Of course this is not his fault. He can't help it if they have bad writers writing him...:) |
| Keahi1910-11-07, 02:23 AM | If she were decieving them both to think she was dead that would make alot of sense. Cause it would explain why Cyric isn't this great deciever that he's supposed to be. It's cause he really isn't in power of the portfolio. |
| Charles Phipps10-11-07, 02:30 AM | Well, if you recall, that lovely little Trio of Evil had gone through tremendous effort to get to the point where they could even confront Jergal, so I don't think it too much of a stretch to say that they did indeed earn it on a much more profound level than Cyric ever did... They didn't "confront" Jergal. They defeated a Mud Monster and Jergal gave them his power. Frankly, I honestly wonder if it wouldn't be better to have more adventures of Kelemvor and Cyric. I would have loved to have seen them probe for the Ring of Winter. You see this what kills me...you want us to respect his Int and Wis. Yet you discount Leira's int. Also it was Mask who set her up and Cyric was just the thug with the sword...this is what always been my problem because Mask was a sword. What did he say, "Oh hi Leira you want to come out and play...oh don't worry about the guy who is holding me frothing at the mouth or anything he is really nice." I mean sure Mask can be convincing but come on. You also say that Cyric should be the best at Trickery and Deception...well shouldn't Leira have been that too? No, I respect Leira's intellect and wisdom. She was the absolute best right up until she was defeated. The only thing she lacked to set herself up at the top of the pantheon was, reasonably so, she was a goddess that was too capricious to seek concentrated power like that and not ruthlessness enough. And a "Thug with a Sword?" How would you like me calling Mask "Just a .2 bit thief"? In life Bane examplfied Strife, Tyranny and etc. He earned them because that is what he was. Cyric was just in the right place at the right time. By murdering Bhaal, betraying his friends, and routinely proving himself willing to go to any length to win. Ao doesn't make mistakes. Out of all of the peoples in the realms, Cyric was MOST qualified for the position. Isn't this better for games? If she were decieving them both to think she was dead that would make alot of sense. Cause it would explain why Cyric isn't this great deciever that he's supposed to be. It's cause he really isn't in power of the portfolio. Ao confirmed she was dead. |
| Stigger10-11-07, 02:51 AM | Sorry Charles, but you're description of the ascension of those three just pretty much tells me you aren't all that familiar with the lore surrounding that one... at least beyond the most superficial of levels. Either that or are resorting to condescension tactics to 'prove' your point... in any case, I'm not bothering with it, since I'm tired and really not in the mood. As to calling Mask a 2-bit thief, feel free. I've never liked him all that much to be honest, and would just love to see him get ganked by Brandobaris. And Thug with a Sword seems a perfectly good description of Cyric... though I would probably add in Skinny if the drawings of him I've seen are representative. As to Ao not making mistakes... well, he probably doesn't, but authors do, so... having a hard time swallowing that one. As to Cyric's other fine qualities, ask yourself how far he would have gotten without Mask, and go from there. Bane and company at least got to Jergal's divine realm under their own steam, as far as we know anyway... more than I can say for Cyric. |
| Charles Phipps10-11-07, 03:12 AM | Stigger, my point is that I see Cyric as a genius and brilliant schemer even in canon even if he's been ridiculously hampered. I'm also very familiar with Bane's story. Cyric is, because it's mythically appropriate, every bit as worthy of godhood as Bane was. If you can't wrap your mind around that. I'm sorry, I think it makes a much better deity. But yeah, to get off the Cyricide. Here's some more changes that I handle. 1) The Black Network replaces the Thayan Enclaves The Black Network has diplomatic immunity just like the Thayans had in the Lord of Darkness. They wield just too much authority as a merchantale Empire to actively prosecute them. Manshoon is the guy who started mass manufacturing magical items and you go to the Zhents and their wizards if you want something created. I had a very fun situation where the party actually bought some healing potions and other materials from the very people whom had been shooting at them the night before. They also KNEW that they were guilty but the prices were too good. The Zhents sell everything from exotic spices to poisons to magical items to bulk goods. Their knowledge of portals is only matched by the Elves and they control a lot of private ones that they use to force other merchants to pay homage. Manshoon may only control much of the Moonsea area but he's one of the most powerful monarchs in all of Faerun. 2) The Black Network makes an effort to appear legitimate Yes, the Zhents are trying to steal every magical item in the kingdom and overthrow your land. They're like SPECTRE in my games with all the various threats and terrorist activities, however, it's always activities that are removed from 90% of their dealings that are entirely legitimate and vital to a nation's success. So while they have ties with The Night Masks, Cult of Dragon, and even Elaith Craulnobler's gangs.....they prefer to mostly let THEM provide the canon fodder while the genuine agents keep a short distance. Any agent found out by the Zhents usually is dead before anything can be gleened from him or easilly discarded. 3) Helm is Heimdale Just a little nod, Helm is the Guardian of the Rainbow bridge and the last of Tyr's Pantheon that survived the journey into Faerun. Thus, the 4E stuff in my games is even more ironic. He still guards the Rainbow Bridge into Mount Celesti....err the House of the Triad. 4) Helm is the Bank God I rule that Helm's Paladins are sort of like the Knights Templars in that you store your credit with them and you can damn well expect that they will back you up with rigid honesty. 5) Mask and Vhaerun are the same The similiarities were just too much for me too ignore. Vhaerun started out his career as Mask when he recognized that Lolth was too powerful to challenge directly. Thus, he is a much more powerful God than he lets on. 6) Eilistraee is a Demigoddess The number of Good Drow on the surface is absolutely ridiculous and low in my campaigns. Eilistraee lives only because she's a member of the Seldarine in my games, rather than because of her worshippers ability to stay alive. She's also a far less reactionary goddess in gender relationships with male and female equality being another of her teachings. Her priests are known as her consorts while her priestesses are her sisters. She's actually worshipped by a substantial number of Half-Elves and Seldarine loving humans who are at odds with their own culture. 7) Evermeet is still the psychotically hostile place from the Complete Book of Elves You might be Christ amongst Half-Elves but you can't visit the Elven Homeworld. It's a place for elves and people just don't go there. They don't murder people out of hand but anyone trying to go there without permission is laid to waste before they can get within a league. 8) The Eldreth Veluuthra is also Kymil Nemsin's organization While no one knows he's the founder of it, after the attack on Evermeet, he realized that his credibility was eternally screwed. In our game, he used a Magic Jar spell (with a wizard's help) to move his soul into an unsuspecting Gold Elf before murdering his old body in cold blood. Kymil still wants a Gold Elf monarchy but he figured out that he's only made the Moonflowers more popular than ever. His new goal is to undermine them and her initiatives of peace by playing on elven hatred for humans. |
| Stigger10-11-07, 03:20 AM | I can see your points on Cyric, I just don't agree with them. I can't quite get past the whole Deus Ex aspect of him as a NPC/Deity... too much artistic license at work there for my liking. But hey, you're entitled to your opinion, same as I am, so whatever works for you. One question though about that set up, how does that Helm as bank thing work in relation to Waukeen? I can totally see where Helm would fit there, but I usually gave that one to Waukeen myself... might borrow that idea there for some dramatic tension in my campaign really... |
| Charles Phipps10-11-07, 03:27 AM | Yeah, same here Re: Cyric. 9) Waukeen The two gods are allied in my campaigns, actually. Waukeen is a very prominent deity in the Realms and I sometimes think she should be a Greater Goddess but I stick her just as an Intermediate one for the time being with a growing prominence. She's the Goddess of Merchants, Wealth, and Trade so she's got a substantial worshipper base to begin with. I also play to stereotype and make her the most prominent goddess in Sembia by far. The problem is that Waukeen's Priests aren't exactly the most trustworthy people on the planet. They "sell" miracles unlike every other priest on Faerun in my games. Helm and Waukeen are allied in my games because the Followers of God of Guardianship can be trusted to just "sit" on money without ever helping themselves to it or investing it themselves. A Waukeen Priest would probably be tempted to do things with it like modern banks certainly are. So Waukeen is VERY grateful for Helm's presence and the Knights of Helm often are employed at her locations because of their fundamental incorruptability. |
| Keahi1910-11-07, 03:30 AM | Vhaerun: I evolved him into a neutral evil god (His chaotic evil status never made sense to me.) and eventually a powerful follower of his killed Lolth and he absorbed many of her portfolios. (Still remaing Neutral Evil) Eventually the fear of a return to Lolth. (As we all know that drow society is very fear filled) Out of that fear the society changes to a much more dangerous Lawful Evil race. |
| Charles Phipps10-11-07, 03:34 AM | 10) Cyricean Heresays One last thing I use in my campaigns that's Cyric related. Cyric is willing to sacrifice some of his power in order to screw with other deities. Thus, "Cyric-Priests" replace Ur-Priests in my game to some extent. They're priests that fall from the grace of other deities and then suddenly have their powers fully restored and spells by Cyric. Except, they're twisted of course. In my game, I altered the situation in Maztica to be a Cyricean Heresy at work. Cyric was providing LE Priests of Torm/Helm/Ilmater/Tyr with all their spells and encouragement through false visions in order to ruin the reputation of those goodly deities. This, unsurprisingly, outrages other deities but is extremely effective at forcing them to do damage control. Cyric is fully of the mind that when the Clerics have the smackdown laid, that the Church of his enemies will be weaker for the result while also allowing him to maybe recruit some disatisfied remnants afterwards. They fully think that Tyr is telling them that converting the heathans by the sword is right and just. He even loves doing it to his fellow Lower Planar types too. There's nothing more fun than the LG Paladin of Bane. |
| johnkretzer10-11-07, 03:38 AM | They didn't "confront" Jergal. They defeated a Mud Monster and Jergal gave them his power. Frankly, I honestly wonder if it wouldn't be better to have more adventures of Kelemvor and Cyric. I would have loved to have seen them probe for the Ring of Winter. Actualy I would love it if they published books about their adventuring career and eventualy rise to god hood...also then I think you can make a fair judgement about them then..as fair as Cyric who has had book coverage. No, I respect Leira's intellect and wisdom. She was the absolute best right up until she was defeated. The only thing she lacked to set herself up at the top of the pantheon was, reasonably so, she was a goddess that was too capricious to seek concentrated power like that and not ruthlessness enough. No she was very secretive,,we don't know what she was up to. Like a good god of decpetion should be. And a "Thug with a Sword?" How would you like me calling Mask "Just a .2 bit thief"? Actualy The Thug with Sword is how they make him out to be. Described him...also in answear to this this the way I like to described the way Leira died.. So the goddes of illusion was tricked and killed by the crazy guy and the god of two bit thieves. Yeah tell me another one...:) By murdering Bhaal, betraying his friends, and routinely proving himself willing to go to any length to win. Ao doesn't make mistakes. Out of all of the peoples in the realms, Cyric was MOST qualified for the position." Oh I don't know about that...I mean it was Mask who really killed Bhaal, and it wasn't a murder it was a fair fight . betraying them poorly..he failed in his scheme for the most part...he got lucky Isn't this better for games? Actualy as I stated before their is no definite answear to what is better for games. It is better for your game for sure...but for me who likes to play the trickster and deciever...(The new Beguilers are soo cool) it is bad because I don't like playing evil people like that. Also I have stated your take on Cyric could be fun and I would enjoy playing in your game...so why couldn't you do the same with a more active Leira? I mean if you think Cyric is badly done they never even touched upon her. Ao confirmed she was dead. And Ao can't lie? Especialy since he supports gods acting within their portfolio. Which she would be. |
| Charles Phipps10-11-07, 03:48 AM | Also I have stated your take on Cyric could be fun and I would enjoy playing in your game...so why couldn't you do the same with a more active Leira? I mean if you think Cyric is badly done they never even touched upon her. Good point, in truth, I use Shaundakul and Finder Wyvernspur to replace the role for Good and Neutral Tricksters. Shaundakul: I added the peculiar titles of "God of Risk" and "God of Gamblers." The Wanderer is a God whom survives by his cunning in a world where it's not normally an option and manages to pull off stunts that his Lesser Deity status wouldn't normally allow. He's, unsurprisingly, allied with Tymora. Finder Wyvernspur: I actually just threw out his current portfolio and replaced it with something that wasn't ripped from Moander but better reflected his personality. Finder Wyernspur is Chaotic Neutral God of Cunning, Cheating, and Trickery. He picked up all of Leira's Good Followers and some of her Neutral ones uninterested in following a God of Murder. He and Mask are enemies with both of them wanting the other's portfolio. Finder is the Underdog but....well, no pain, no gain. (You know its amazing how many of what I perceived to be "small changes" had huge ripples across my games) |
| Stigger10-11-07, 04:03 AM | Interesting take on Waukeen... probably more accurate than mine canon-wise really. Think I prefer her as more of a LN type than N come to think of it... not sure how I came to that conclusion really, thinkinb about it. :D As to Finder's portfolio, I rather liked the transformation of art portfolio, as it implied a lot of unrealized power, rather like art movements in the Rennaisance that spurred, mirrored, and followed massive social changes. |
| johnkretzer10-11-07, 04:41 AM | Good point, in truth, I use Shaundakul and Finder Wyvernspur to replace the role for Good and Neutral Tricksters. Shaundakul: I added the peculiar titles of "God of Risk" and "God of Gamblers." The Wanderer is a God whom survives by his cunning in a world where it's not normally an option and manages to pull off stunts that his Lesser Deity status wouldn't normally allow. He's, unsurprisingly, allied with Tymora. Finder Wyvernspur: I actually just threw out his current portfolio and replaced it with something that wasn't ripped from Moander but better reflected his personality. Finder Wyernspur is Chaotic Neutral God of Cunning, Cheating, and Trickery. He picked up all of Leira's Good Followers and some of her Neutral ones uninterested in following a God of Murder. He and Mask are enemies with both of them wanting the other's portfolio. Finder is the Underdog but....well, no pain, no gain. (You know its amazing how many of what I perceived to be "small changes" had huge ripples across my games) Again interesting takes...I like them and can enjoy them...(especialy since I could play my good but mysterious Beguiler..:) ) Oh some other thing that is in my Realms that doesn't follow canon... When the city of Shade returned it was leveled with in a month by the combined force(though not allied with each other really) of the Zhentarim, Red Wizards, Herpers, Harluua, etc.(place most power groups and nations.) Heck even the Flaming Fists were hired by the Sembia goverment. They all did this to get the lost lore. Now the area is a war zone with shifting alliance and independent, and a few suriving Shades though most have just left. It turned a high level ony area into a area fun for groups of all levels. Heck I could run a entire campaign that lasts for years just in that area. |
| johnkretzer10-11-07, 04:48 AM | 10) Cyricean Heresays One last thing I use in my campaigns that's Cyric related. Cyric is willing to sacrifice some of his power in order to screw with other deities. Thus, "Cyric-Priests" replace Ur-Priests in my game to some extent. They're priests that fall from the grace of other deities and then suddenly have their powers fully restored and spells by Cyric. Except, they're twisted of course. In my game, I altered the situation in Maztica to be a Cyricean Heresy at work. Cyric was providing LE Priests of Torm/Helm/Ilmater/Tyr with all their spells and encouragement through false visions in order to ruin the reputation of those goodly deities. This, unsurprisingly, outrages other deities but is extremely effective at forcing them to do damage control. Cyric is fully of the mind that when the Clerics have the smackdown laid, that the Church of his enemies will be weaker for the result while also allowing him to maybe recruit some disatisfied remnants afterwards. They fully think that Tyr is telling them that converting the heathans by the sword is right and just. He even loves doing it to his fellow Lower Planar types too. There's nothing more fun than the LG Paladin of Bane. Ah the heritic feat in action..some funny ones... Paladin of Bane..Tyranny for good... The Illmater and Loviator heresy...They encouragethe two groups to get together so that the Loviators have somebody to whip and the Illmaters are taking the torment ontro themselves...it is almost like a dating service... The Sune Heresy...the believe ugly people should be stamped out by any means possible.... Those have made minor or major appearence in my game(I liked that feat) please feel free to borrown any or all of them for you Cyricean Heresays. |
| Charles Phipps10-18-07, 02:29 PM | Aasimar and Tieflings: Rather than just have them be the descendents of Demonic and Angelic bloodlines, I have the two of them be the result of the Gods rather frequent dalliances with mortals. The Seven Sisters and the Bhaalspawn are quite distinct from regular children of gods whom are fairly common. All of them are inclined to being very powerful and destined for immortal adventures though. Ghaundaur: Ghaundaur is actually Jubilex and just an avatar of the greater evil that is Tharizdun. Ghaundaur exists to try to work to awaken the ancient imprisoned Chaos that will consume the entire universe if he's ever released. Tharizdun is so powerful that only Ao would be able to challenge him and even a confrontation between them would destroy all creation. Primal evils like the Chaos Hound and Serpent are creatures of Ghaundaur. Nine Hells: Bane lives at the bottom of the Nine Hells in my campaign where he rules over an Iron Throne with Asmodeus as his seneschal. All of the Lords of the Nine pay Bane homage as their ruler. While Bane was dead, Asmodeus kept the tower for him. His origin is that he's a fallen Solar Deva like Baalzebull and lead a revolt in ancient times against Amaunator. Abyss: The Abyss was, formerly, ruled by Moander before he squandered all of his ancient power and it fell into anarchy. At the lowest Pit of the Abyss is where Cyric is currently imprisoned. Cyric doesn't rule the Abyss but his avatars certainly are able to force most of the Demon Princes to bow to his wishes when he exerts his power. The Blood War: Only started with the Time of Troubles when Cyric attempted to seize control of the Nine Hells. Thus, Cyric and Bane are warring for control of the cosmos in our games and the powers of good wonder who will win. For the time that Bane was dead, Cyric was kicking the Nine Hells' ass but he's recently had the tide turn. |
| OleOneEye10-20-07, 02:31 AM | I am starting my first ever Realms campaign tomorrow with quite a few changes. All distances are reduced to 1/3rd. All population totals are reduced to 1/10th, turning great cities into little more than fortified boroughs. The players handbook gods replace the Realms gods. No subraces for the demi-humans. |
| johnkretzer10-20-07, 02:55 AM | I am starting my first ever Realms campaign tomorrow with quite a few changes. All distances are reduced to 1/3rd. All population totals are reduced to 1/10th, turning great cities into little more than fortified boroughs. The players handbook gods replace the Realms gods. No subraces for the demi-humans. Just wait for 4t edition...:) |
| Stigger10-20-07, 04:06 AM | Hardly seems worth calling it the Realms... in either case really. ;) |
| Charles Phipps10-20-07, 02:48 PM | Kelemvor Facts 1. Kelemvor offers a Final Appeal The Final Appeal is where a judged soul is allowed to change his god worship before his soul is sentenced to be treated faithless or false. Then that god has the option of allowing him into his world or not. Kelemvor provides a lawyer, a Arcanoloth usually, to provide recommendations for the condemned. 2. Kelemvor claims the souls of all Faithless and False for himself They are judged according to Kelemvor's criteria, which generally punishes individuals whom caused death as part of their activities in life and rewards those whom defended life as long as they existed. The exception being if those souls that were slain were killers themselves. Kelemvor is known to pardon the souls of certain murderers seemingly indiscriminately as well. These are transformed into his demons. 3. Kelemvor offers a Challenge to Killers Warriors whom have caused a great number of deaths in life, whether for good or evil, can wager their eternal soul against Kelemvor's skill to get a second chance at life. Kelemvor names the contest depending on whether it suits him or not. A subject is Raised to 1 HP if they win, moments after their death. This can be invoked only once. 4. Kelemvor heads a Small Pantheon Hoar, Jergal, Talona, and Anubis are all gods underneath Kelemvor. Also, I state that Kelemvor is a god of Medicine as well. After Velsharoon was destroyed, Kelemvor ascended his mortal daughter Wee Jas as goddess of Necromancy. 5. Some sentences are not eternal Kelemvor sentences many to punishments that are finite in nature, often befitting their crimes in life and ironic. The unrepentent are known to have their sentences reknewed but they may chose to be reborn with no memories of their life or serve Kelemvor. 6. There is no Wall of the Faithless Instead, the Faithless are forced to live in the city of Eternal Twilight as shadows of their former selves because they never took a stand for anything. The False are sent to various Hell like torments. |
| johnkretzer10-20-07, 03:24 PM | 6. There is no Wall of the Faithless Instead, the Faithless are forced to live in the city of Eternal Twilight as shadows of their former selves because they never took a stand for anything. The False are sent to various Hell like torments. This surprises me in your humanistic Realms. Why would you need a god to stand for anything? I thought you would ignore the faithless rules. |
| Charles Phipps10-20-07, 03:59 PM | This surprises me in your humanistic Realms. Why would you need a god to stand for anything? I thought you would ignore the faithless rules. As Kelemvor put it "You prayed to Torm every time you honored your word." :) |
| johnkretzer10-20-07, 04:10 PM | As Kelemvor put it "You prayed to Torm every time you honored your word." :) Ah got it. Though I wonder would you would do with a certain character of mine who has though RPing become a faithless(I.E. no patron deity). Character is still NG and still fights for the good causes but currently is best described as in between gods. |
| Charles Phipps10-20-07, 04:28 PM | There's four potential verdicts in our game for Kelemvor or one of his followers to dish out (PCs, by their nature as heroes, almost invariably get judged by Kelemvor himself). 1. Faithful The PCs has lived an exemplary life in service to another god, even if he never prayed to him formally. Thus, the controversy in the Trial of Cyric the Mad would have never happened. Mask would just be happy to get all the souls of thieves that worshipped other gods tepidly. 2. Faithless The character never did anything of note with his life or made a stand but let others do the thinking for him or failed to commit to anything wortwhile. They just sort of coasted through life or cowardly snivelled their way through existence. These, Kelemvor sends to the City of the Dead to live lives of endless mediocrity. 3. False The LG Priests of Cyric or NE Priests of Lathander and other heretics. They are given the option of appealing to another god that more appropriately fits their worldview. If they refuse this, they are then tossed into into Tartareus where a punishment based on their delusions awaits them. They vary from the pleasantly banal (my favorite was a Priest of Talos that spent all his time reading was trapped in a Library while a storm raged outside) to the horrific (The Lathander serial killer endured eternal crucifixtion under the sun) 4. Apostate A person who rejects the authority of all the Gods is exiled from the City of the Dead. He basically is left to the mercy of demons, angels, and so on to make his own way in the Wastes. He can, however, find Portals to other planes and perhaps become a planewalker. |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin10-20-07, 10:55 PM | This surprises me in your humanistic Realms. Why would you need a god to stand for anything? I thought you would ignore the faithless rules. I said as much on the Candlekeep forums. Just because you don't worship a god doesn't mean you don't stand for anything. |
| Charles Phipps10-20-07, 11:05 PM | I said as much on the Candlekeep forums. Just because you don't worship a god doesn't mean you don't stand for anything. You don't believe in tyranny, you don't believe in honor, you don't believe in duty, you don't believe in guardianship, family, the earth, nature, magic, reknewal, knowledge, or even wealth. So, what praytell DOES a person believe in then if he doesn't believe in the gods? Even an atheist worships Torm in my realm just by being Lawful Good and living up to standards of honor and decency. |
| johnkretzer10-20-07, 11:31 PM | You don't believe in tyranny, you don't believe in honor, you don't believe in duty, you don't believe in guardianship, family, the earth, nature, magic, reknewal, knowledge, or even wealth. So, what praytell DOES a person believe in then if he doesn't believe in the gods? Even an atheist worships Torm in my realm just by being Lawful Good and living up to standards of honor and decency. I got your point...I am just surprise they would be associated with any deity. Personaly the way you handle religion in the Realms is alot like Eberron in that it is the ideals that are important not the god. You just have a cast of uber NPCs who act as single mindly representives of those ideals. Though I can't really think of anyone who actualy believes in nothing, most people do belief in something. |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin10-20-07, 11:35 PM | Though I can't really think of anyone who actualy believes in nothing... Neither can I. |
| Charles Phipps10-20-07, 11:48 PM | I got your point...I am just surprise they would be associated with any deity. Personaly the way you handle religion in the Realms is alot like Eberron in that it is the ideals that are important not the god. You just have a cast of uber NPCs who act as single mindly representives of those ideals. Though I can't really think of anyone who actualy believes in nothing, most people do belief in something. That's pretty accurate and one of my biggest changes from the Realms, though I don't actually think it's very "Eberron-esque." I run an Eberron campaign as well (you can watch it on the boards). The gods there are what's worshiped rather than the ideals. They're so mysterious and powerful along with inhuman that what they represent is secondary importance to them. I.e. it seems we run exactly the opposite manner here. As for the "Faithless", in general, just as you get Bonus points for honoring a god's portfolio you also don't get much from generically worshiping someone. The City of the Endless Twilight (my name for it) is filled with people who never took a stand against anything (or very rarely did it). The people who coasted through life trying to stay out of everyone's way and just live without aspiring to anything. It depends on your worldview whether that makes the City too underpopulated or too OVERpopulated. |
| johnkretzer10-21-07, 12:13 AM | That's pretty accurate and one of my biggest changes from the Realms, though I don't actually think it's very "Eberron-esque." I run an Eberron campaign as well (you can watch it on the boards). The gods there are what's worshiped rather than the ideals. They're so mysterious and powerful along with inhuman that what they represent is secondary importance to them. I.e. it seems we run exactly the opposite manner here. Except in Eberron some gods aren't really that mysterious or even gods like Vol or the Lord of Blades. I always viewed Eberron religion as taking the idea of concept worship(presented in the 3.0 PHB) to it's natural conclusion. As for the "Faithless", in general, just as you get Bonus points for honoring a god's portfolio you also don't get much from generically worshiping someone. The City of the Endless Twilight (my name for it) is filled with people who never took a stand against anything (or very rarely did it). The people who coasted through life trying to stay out of everyone's way and just live without aspiring to anything. It depends on your worldview whether that makes the City too underpopulated or too OVERpopulated. It sounds like it would be filled with ordinary people, though I guess it is how you treat those ordinary people in you. If you treat them like I do in my game(I.E. not some cardboard cut outs for the PCs use) Then it will be underpopulated....very undepopulated as I think it would be in reality. Also I don't think we are that different...atleast your ideas don't send me packing for the hills. :D |
| Charles Phipps10-21-07, 12:19 AM | Except in Eberron some gods aren't really that mysterious or even gods like Vol or the Lord of Blades. I always viewed Eberron religion as taking the idea of concept worship(presented in the 3.0 PHB) to it's natural conclusion. The Blood of Vol don't worship Vol, oddly enough. They worship a philosophy about inner divinity. She just happens to have founded the religion and manipulates it from behind the scenes. The Lord of Blades worship is a cult, though I suppose his clerics do get spells. It sounds like it would be filled with ordinary people, though I guess it is how you treat those ordinary people in you. If you treat them like I do in my game(I.E. not some cardboard cut outs for the PCs use) Then it will be underpopulated....very undepopulated as I think it would be in reality. Well it's Hell, just the 1st circle of it, it's not meant to be overpopulated. It's however a definite place for cowards and hypocrites though :-) And true enough. |
| johnkretzer10-21-07, 12:43 AM | The Blood of Vol don't worship Vol, oddly enough. They worship a philosophy about inner divinity. She just happens to have founded the religion and manipulates it from behind the scenes. The Lord of Blades worship is a cult, though I suppose his clerics do get spells. Well true about the Cult of Vol...they worship a set of concepts that do come from Vol and not divinely granted if you will. The same is true for the Lord of Blades cult...though the central figure of those concepts is alot more public. Well it's Hell, just the 1st circle of it, it's not meant to be overpopulated. It's however a definite place for cowards and hypocrites though :-) And true enough. So wouldn't your Cyric worshipers who pose as something they are not go here for being hypocrites? |
| Charles Phipps10-21-07, 12:45 AM | So wouldn't your Cyric worshipers who pose as something they are not go here for being hypocrites? No, they're liars. ;-) |
| GothicDan10-21-07, 01:11 PM | So, where would I go? I don't "believe" anything is inherently this way or that, or things "should" be done so and so, but I also never 'coast' through life and take very active stances on getting done what i want to get done (which isn't always perceived as something 'greedy'). |
| Charles Phipps10-21-07, 02:24 PM | So, where would I go? I don't "believe" anything is inherently this way or that, or things "should" be done so and so, but I also never 'coast' through life and take very active stances on getting done what i want to get done (which isn't always perceived as something 'greedy'). Primarily self-interested souls go to Mask, Waukeen, Cyric, or Bane in my games. Though your description is rather vague. Those generally interested in their own self-advancement through hard work tend to go to Waukeen, those who wish to do through acute application of cunning go to Mask, those who do so through deception or lies go to Cyric, and those who bully and dominate their way through life go to Bane. Mask and Waukeen are the Objectivist gods. As I informed players, Mask may himself be evil but the majority of his faithful aren't. |
| GothicDan10-21-07, 02:34 PM | Interesting, as I totally hate, despise, wish to destroy, all rogues, thieves, etc., and also hate lies and deception. :) My philosophies on life are mostly Nietzsche (the saner parts) with a healthy dose of Epicurean perspective. |
| Charles Phipps10-21-07, 03:09 PM | The goddess of pure pleasure is Llirra and those who seek solely to enjoy life go there, though probably not because (frankly) they must be someone seeking to aid others in the pursuit of happiness. So one step down probably would be more Sharess (whose neutral in my games) |
| GothicDan10-21-07, 03:18 PM | A very lawful physicist/Latinist going to Sharess's realm? Who doesn't like small/house cats much? Hm... Now you see why it's hard for me to accept the Tree. I mean, I'd be quite happy in Mechanus. :) |
| Charles Phipps10-21-07, 03:27 PM | A very lawful physicist/Latinist going to Sharess's realm? Who doesn't like small/house cats much? Hm... Now you see why it's hard for me to accept the Tree. I mean, I'd be quite happy in Mechanus. :) A person who doesn't believe in knowledge in Mechanus? You just said you didn't (since you indicated you didn't believe in anything particular), fraid they wouldn't take you. But yes, people need to define what MOST matters to them. If they can't do that then they're Faithless. ;-) *tosses him into the City of Twilight* JK. |
| GothicDan10-21-07, 03:33 PM | Hey, it's really boring here, and I hate Kelemvor! Let me out! I'd probably end up in Oghma's domain, actually, since only knowledge/truth of reality affects my decisions, whatever they are. Or Shar's. Oops. |
| Charles Phipps10-21-07, 03:35 PM | Yeah, its not a perfect system. But then, what sort of afterlife would be except Pandemonium where you can shape your own? ;-) |
| GothicDan10-21-07, 03:37 PM | That'd probably be Limbo, actually. :) |
| sillaric_culdanin10-22-07, 06:51 PM | The biggest change to my home Realms (which now extends to my online Realms in the form PbP campaigns) is the lack of any Racial Deities (with one exception). The Faerunian Pantheon (and of course the various fringe splinters, demon cultists, devil-worshipping dictators and beast cults) is the only 'pantheon' there is. The Mulhorandi Pantheon are worshipped with their Egyptian names but in truth they are actually simply locally worshipped faces of various Faerunian gods. The only creatures that worship true gods that aren't members of the Faerunian Pantheon are dragons. Overall my campaign has a freakish number of gods. More than most I would say, as even though I divested the racial gods as they were I have modified many of them to be raceless and created over 3 dozen new minor deities for everthing from a counterpart patron to Azuth for sorcerers to a demi-power for each school of magic (Baravar is a patron of good thieves as well Archmage of Illusion ;)) and a few beast guardian demipowers that I've detailed, although there is of course a countless number of these. Somewhat connected to this, but a big change in its own right is that deific power has nothing to do with number of worshippers... or at least very little. It has more to do with fervency (is that a word?) of worship and the IMPORTANCE of the porfolios for which the deity serves as steward over. The deities that either represent a powerful ideal (Tyr, Cyric, Bane and Shar are good examples of alignment-themed Greaters) or a wide-spanning sphere of influence (Mystra, Silvanus, Chauntea, Kelemvor and Oghma). The elemental lords are all Greater Deities in their own right as well. Its funny but the majoriy of minor deities in my Realms do serve in the 'court' as a servant or champion of a Greater Deity... much like the way they are describing for 4e. |
| Charles Phipps10-31-07, 06:58 PM | Here's some MAJOR changes that are upcomming from a new plot in my campaign.... This is mostly because it's a Campaign Arc. Gargauth: Gargauth is the son of "The King of Hell" (Asmodeus) and Shar the Lady of Loss. This is how he gained his divinity. Gargauth is explicitly far more powerful than all the other Lords of the Nine and could destroy his father to claim rulership of the Nine Hells were he interested (he's not). Gargauth is the Realmsversion of Damien Thorne and our equivalent of the Anti-Christ as well as Cthulhu. Gargauth schemes ever more to open up Buffy style gates to the Nine Hells and proceed to dominate all of creation under the literal flames of Hell. As the only Fiend-God in existence with Orcus' destruction, he's pretty much a single minded embodiment of evil in a manner different from other evil gods (though Cyric and Shar are both so evil that it's difficult to say they're any better). Gargauth's Lovecraftian points are that he's currently trapped in his attempt to be summoned physically into the world of mankind both divine essence as well as earthly. If he does so then pretty much the Prime Material Plane may well be completely effed over as it goes against all the rules of the gods to interfere. Despite this all, Gargauth is relatively weak by comparison to the other gods and he's suitably resented/feared by everyone up to and including his own father. Nevertheless, he allows a nice focus for Demon worship in the Realms. Fey'ri: In this game, it traces all the way back to Gargauth again as they're explicitly the result of his manipulation to be created. Their ties to both Taan'ari and Baatezu is part of his attempt to breed more powerful and horrific servants that combine the strengths of both. The Fey'ri consider themselves divine but almost all of them bow towards the will of Gargauth. Fire Knives: In addition to being the exiled Cormaeril Family's Dark Side, the Fire Knives are also Demon Worshippers. Quite a few Cormaerils are tainted with demon blood and mixing with Fey'ri. The namesake of the Fire Knives are objects formed of "Demonic Steel" that entrap the souls of their victims so that they can be fed upon by Gargauth in part of his need to gain strength enough to pull Toril into the Nine Hells. Lord Orgauth: Is a direct servant of Gargauth and was an attempt to transform the Zhentariam into another faction of the forces of evil. In this game, Fzoul never allied with Orgauth (knowing better than to ally with hellspawn) and outright succeeded in destroying him once Khelben revealed his nature. Rogue Demons: Gargauth employs demons as well as Devils in a shocking breach of etiquette. |
| Elaurin10-31-07, 09:31 PM | So far I've stayed close to the current canon. The gods have become more distant recently for unknown reasons. They'll still send messages to their servants (and grant spells) but they don't intervene directly. The Mulhorandi pantheon disappeared around the same time. A lot of the lesser and intermediate powers have been relegated to more of a demigod status who work for a greater power (such as Eldath and Lurue working to further Mielikki's goals). I was planning on shaking up the pantheons some more but I think I'll wait and see what happens to the gods in 4E. Portals work more like stargates. You can "dial-up" certain other portals and travel through them. They can still be locked or one-way. I'm using Monte Cook's Arcana Evolved as my baseline. Replacing wemics with Litorians. During the Year of Rogue Dragons, the Cult of the Dragon performed experiments creating the Dracha and Mohj. When shade returned, it also dragged a city of faen and friendly giants into the North. The city soon joined the Silver Marches. A lot of the classes such as magisters, mage blades and runethanes seemed to naturally fit into the Realms. |