How do you see this paladin's decision? [Archive] - Wizards Community

How do you see this paladin's decision? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Werwoelfin
02-09-06, 09:24 AM Last night we played a little adventure (not part of a campaign) near Waterdeep. The village we were sent to was a trading post and we had to investigate the theft of some valuable goods. In our group was a dwarven paladin of Clangeddin who asked about what would be done with the thieves. That would be uncertain was the answer. Since there were regularly little contraventions, something as big as this one has never happened before. We were also informed that there is a court. The paladin than brags that now with him arrived there would be someone who would be able to decide.

During the night we found a halfling bum (I hope this word is okay - I`m not a native english speaker), a child of a nearby gypsy community. He just searched for a dry place to sleep. The paladin and (at the next morning) the shopkeeper admonished him but let him go.

Later we found out that again some goods were missing and some of us - including the paladin - were going to search the halfling. They found him in another shop were he were hiding. He has pocketed some (not much) tabac and declared it as "theft of food" (I found no better translation but I hope you understand what I mean).

To come to the point the paladin cut off one of the child's hands for this little theft - altough neither the community was not a dwarven one nor he had permission or sth like that from the local court or anyone else there.

The player argued this would be okay for a fantasy middle-age setting like the Forgotten Realms. So, now I ask you: What do you think about this?
Karsus the Mad
02-09-06, 10:01 AM Uhh...Paladin of chopping off kids hands? Doesn't sound particularly nice to me:P I'd say he'd have to atone for that. One, he's a paladin, not a vigilante'. He can't simply walk into another domain and ignore the local laws as he sees fit (well, I guess he can, since he lopped a kids hand off for petty theft) without the local (and legal) authorities taking appropriate (and again, legal) action against the paladin.
Zevox
02-09-06, 10:06 AM Well, I'd say that its very likely that the community wouldn't like it, depending on thier own views. Remember that the beliefs of places in the Realms do not everywhere match up exactly with what things were like in old medievil communities (actually, pretty few, if any, do), and I don't think places around Waterdeep aren't amongst those that do. In all likelihood I could see them trying to arrest him or drive him out of town. I don't think Clangeddin would have any objections though, so this isn't a case of a fallen Paladin.

Zevox
selunatic2397
02-09-06, 10:06 AM Loss of Paladinhood! Apparently the "hero" forgot that one of the qualities of paladinhood is that of Mercy. One should always temper the punishment to the severity of the crime. Theft of food probably should be punished by feeding him a good meal, and finding out why he had to steal...was there no honest work to do? Did he have a string of bad luck and a poor sickly mother to support? Perhaps find him some day labor at the nearest church of the hero's faith.

I'd expect that response from a barbarian but not from a paladin!
Alac Luin
02-09-06, 10:13 AM We were also informed that there is a court.

The most acceptable action would be to take the halfling to this court.

The paladin than brags that now with him arrived there would be someone who would be able to decide.
Fear the paladin that is prideful in this manner.
A paladin may want others to feel this way about him, but making these claims himself about himself is heading down the road to evil.

Note: The paladin made no reference to Clangeddin having the wisdom to dispense justice.
It sounds like the paladin makes these claims about himself, thus placing himself as an equal of the deity he claims to serve.
To come to the point the paladin cut off one of the child's hands for this little theft - altough neither the community was not a dwarven one nor he had permission or sth like that from the local court or anyone else there.

The player argued this would be okay for a fantasy middle-age setting like the Forgotten Realms. So, now I ask you: What do you think about this?

I do not know what the laws are in this particular town.
But, unless the halfling had stolen something from the paladin, the paladin had no right to dispense any form of justice, occasionally the wronged party can dispense justice.

Yes, cutting off the hand of a thief is a valid punishment, but this paladin did not seem to have the legal right to do so.
His actions do not sound OK for a lawful good paladin to take.
justanotherdwarf
02-09-06, 10:44 AM well ..if ya think about it a paladin can be the most evil person even doing a holy quest there is no gray to a pally only black and white a lie is a lie and theft is theft but the punishment was alittle to much. arresting the child (ie taking him to the local guards) would have been a more paladin like thing to do even if the child was useing the theft of food to servive....and local customs mean nothing to a pally ....the slave trade in some areas is looked on as nothing more than trade in some parts of the realms i dont think many pallys would let that stand
justanotherdwarf
02-09-06, 10:56 AM just to add this im not sayin what was done was right im just sayin pallys can go over the top and still be true to there character...( a farmer hides is friend in his house, the pally is after the farmers friend, the farmer tries to stop the pally from entering the house and blocks the way "he has is pitch fork" the pally cuts him down.....sadly for the farmer his friend is a cleric of cyric killed may good people but the farmer only knew his a an old and good friend)..a LG pall killed a LG farmer helping a good friend in his eyes

good and evil to a holy person are sometimes very black and very white its that sily gray that get them in trouble all the time
Alac Luin
02-09-06, 10:58 AM ....the slave trade in some areas is looked on as nothing more than trade in some parts of the realms i dont think many pallys would let that stand

In some parts of the realms, paladins are masters of slaves.
In the area I'm thinking about, slaves are property of the church that the paladin belongs to.

This is one of the things that make paladins different depending on the deities they serve.
Alac Luin
02-09-06, 11:05 AM just to add this im not sayin what was done was right im just sayin pallys can go over the top and still be true to there character...( a farmer hides is friend in his house, the pally is after the farmers friend, the farmer tries to stop the pally from entering the house and blocks the way "he has is pitch fork" the pally cuts him down.....sadly for the farmer his friend is a cleric of cyric killed may good people but the farmer only knew his a an old and good friend)..a LG pall killed a LG farmer helping a good friend in his eyes

good and evil to a holy person are sometimes very black and very white its that sily gray that get them in trouble all the time

This in no way similar to cutting off the hand of a halfling child.
Cutting down an armed opponent (the farmer did have a pichfork if I read that correctly) is differnt then disfiguring a helpless captive.
Werwoelfin
02-09-06, 11:32 AM I'm not very familiar with Clangeddin. In Faiths and Pantheons it seems that he is a good of war, so I'm a bit confused what made the paladin's player think he would be a better judge than everyone else in this town.

We've had a less experienced DM, so the action has had no consequences for the paladin - yet. Our DM thinks about another little adventure where the paladin have to guard the gypsy community to another place but is not allowed to hurt one of them, in any case. All the way the halflings will play tricks on him (like try to sell him a guard dog etc.).

The mother of the child has been eaten by a troll. The child has told us this but the paladin did not believe him. (It later turns out to be the truth.)

I can not tell what happend later because I left before finishing. I didn't want my (nearly exalted) CG aasimar to do something stupid I would regret later.
loki87
02-09-06, 01:50 PM It really depends on the setting, and the background of the paladin, his deity, and his culture. In this case, I think it would be a little out of character for a dwarven paladin of the war god to be cutting children's hand's off for theft. I'm not sure if I would go as far as stripping him of his paladinhood, but I think an atonement of some kind if probably in order.

Generally speaking, paladins are not vigilantes and will simply hand over a thief to the local authorities for proper punishment.
Kid SixXx
02-09-06, 02:15 PM It really depends on the setting, and the background of the paladin, his deity, and his culture.

Indeed. Perhaps in the Dwarf's culture, the halfling kid got off easy with the mere loss of a hand.

After all, the halfling was still alive and would probably think twice (after glancing at the stump where his hand used to be) before stealing again.

Ultimately, I'd have the paladin atone for this: the Dwarf did not have to take matters into his own hands (pardon the unintentional pun). He could have let local authorities deal with the thief once he had proof of the crime.

If the DM wanted to be mean, he could have had the watch throw the Dwarf paladin in the stockades for brandishing steel within city limits without warrant or permit from the Lords.
loki87
02-09-06, 02:59 PM Indeed. Perhaps in the Dwarf's culture, the halfling kid got off easy with the mere loss of a hand.

Well, that's why I followed my statement with, "in this case..." I don't think the normal shield or gold dwarven culture in Faerun would condone this kind of behavior. Both groups tend heavily towards goodness, and I haven't seen anything that would lead me to believe that they are so harsh. Now if it were a wild dwarf, things might be a little different.
King-bargh
02-09-06, 05:02 PM I dont know how Clangedinn looks at it but I have a suggestion how the town reacts.

First the law in town have to react unless they are willing to let any adventurer with a holysymbol mess around with so first they should have him arrested. Then after a trial he would quite likly be found guilty for assault with deadly weapon. Witch is punished with a hefty fine....unless the victim was seriuosly injured! In wich its a hanging offence. But since the guilty part is a paladin the court feels moved the easen the punishment to....beheading!

Now let a person, a priest perhaps stand up and defend the paladin, stating how he acted with the goal of good in his heart if not in action etc. The court thinks it over and declares that they are moved by this and in their mercy they change the verdict to...loss of a hand. The Pally can even pick wich one! :D
Calrond
02-12-06, 01:59 AM I agree with the loss of the hand, although I would also make the statement that "The paladin will either lose a hand, the same hand that he cut off the child regardless of how the paladin feels about this, OR he can pay to have a cleric restore the child's hand and pay a fine (to the child or his closest kin) equal to a year's worth of the child's meals (and to be spent on such by whoever recieves the gold), since it was obvious that he stole the food in hunger."

To me, a paladin should seek out and eliminate the root of the evil, in this case, the boy's hunger, rather than punish those who do it. Show mercy to the people, but change their circumstances so that they don't feel led to do evil. A paladin should even instruct the boy on why stealing was wrong and can be very harsh in this, but ultimately should help the boy out rather than maim a child for stealing out of hunger. I would expect that behavior from a blackguard or a sadist, but not a LG paladin. The paladin should see it as an opportunity to teach the concepts of "right" and "wrong", not a chance to take the law into his own hands.

However, in the magic-filled land of Faerun, all is not lost, and the boy's hand can be restored. After this is done, and restitution is made and the paladin has done everything he can to restore his relationship with society, he should then cast an atonement spell to restore his relationship with his deity. His deity should then smack him once for being too quick to act and too slow to think. Finally, after all this is done, the paladin has restored everything to the way it was and has made life better for the boy, albeit he did it the hard way.

Calrond
Purple Dragon Knight
02-12-06, 11:33 AM Clangeddin is a god of war.

A holy, blessed warrior of his faith witnessing a young halfling stealing would either:

1) say something like "Hunger and poverty: two of the most powerful reasons to go to war. Yet, in human cities such as this one, and other places that have grown an elite so rich and powerful that they can defend the territory just by themselves, through their minions, hunger and poverty is forgotten and ignored. To these poor sods, the homeland becomes the enemy, the target of their future wars and battle. Friends, what you see here is a warrior in training, honing his skills so he can one day join a thieves' guild, a rebel faction or some other organization, whether criminal or law-abiding, that will oppose the poor leaders of this city. Hunger has a way to balance the advantages that the few gain over the many through wealth or power."; or

2) arrest the kid and deliver him to the authorities, and on his way there, think about a suitable "additional duty" for the kid to perform;

3) provoke the kid into a duel: "if you win, keep the loaf of bread; if you lose, you shall lead me to your clan and with their authorization, follow me around for a year's time, serving as my squire."
Bobothebard
02-13-06, 05:57 AM Rgardless of culture, and laws of the land a paladin should ALLWAYS take the lesser "evil" in his solutions to problems..... here the paladin should have talked to the halfling boy, perhaps spanked him and sent him home crying....with some SPs for a meal........Lawful GOOD is GOOD, lawful neutral is a JUDGE........
I say let the paladin take up a mission to redeem him self, and find a way to heal/have the hand grow back.
Bad Paladin, bad very bad paladin
johnis
02-13-06, 07:11 AM I'm seek of Pcs playing paladins just for their advantages. Calrond is 100% right. Ok maybe it could be accepted in a different culture -maybe the paladin's- but still paladins are the incarnation of good and order in this world. They have a code of honor and this is a HUGE disadvantage in game terms. But everybody loves the abilities so he takes the class. TAKE IT ONLY IF YOU CAN RP DUDE!! I think if a NG would think about donig sth twice -ie cutting a hand- a LG would not even consider it. But say "his culture" accepts it. Then talk to the child, embrace it, teach him good, make him regret and then give him his hand back. You are a paladin, treat the child's hand as yours.
ClobberinTime
02-13-06, 04:17 PM Maybe LN but certainly not anywhere near LG
hreslingozer
02-16-06, 12:36 PM Looks like the paladin is a little confused about his code, and part of the problem lies with the DM.

In a lawless place, where a paladin is the only source of justice and order, it might be okay for him to act as judge and administer this punishment to an adult felon.

Never, however, when it is a child commiting the act, there is a legal system and code in place, and the motive is poverty.

When stuff like this comes up, I always give a little hint "in the back of your mind, a voice whispers -- have mercy on this little one."

What should he have done? Bought for the child the rest of the property he tried to steal, give it to him, and say "My child, remember this act of mercy I bestow upon you. Seek the church, and dedicate yourself to its service, for you are lost and have been found." Then make arrangements with the local church to provide a position for the boy, and include a donation to cover the first year's wages.

Another soul saved.
Ocrus of Wessek
02-18-06, 11:25 AM I was under the impression that LG meant a paladin followed the laws of whatever nation he was in, whether he liked it or not because, paladins have to be diplomatic... lets put it this way, a paladin may not like slavery, it may be contrary to his code of honor, but if he is travelling through Thay he's not going to attack every slave caravan he sees, because then he would be part of the problem. The only time a paladin gets to follow thier code of honor over the laws of a soveriegn nation or village is when there is danger to the wellbeing of the town as a whole, or the crime was committed against the paladins church, say the kid had stolen from huge amounts of gold from the churches coffers, or the town treasury, even so he's a paladin, his mind shouldn't immediately go to CUT OFF HIS HAND...
Ivelios2
02-19-06, 10:14 PM First of all let me explain lawful good. Lawful good does not mean you will follow the laws of whatever land you are in for example if the laws of a land are directly opposed to a paladins morals it is in fact a paladins duty to defy them. Lawful mean that you favor order over chaos in a land with an evil ruler and laws a paladin would most likley try to overthrow him and instill a kind and wise ruler recreating the order of the land.

Next this would absolutley make this paladin lose his paladin abilities this act is the very definition of lawful evil. Lawful good rules through the trust love and respect of the people trying to solve problems with their help. Lawful evil rules the people through blatent violence and the instillment of fear in the populace to keep them in line which is what this punishment is designed to do.

Finally Claggadin would never ever condone the torture and disfigurment of a helpless person he is a good god. This in no way was an act of good, honor, or war the very things he stands for. He like all dwarven gods preeches the protection and nurishment of the dwarven community any dwarf led astray would be given every oppritunity to rejoin the fold. As for a creature stealing for food that is more the fault of the community then the child for allowing such a thing to happen in that town and the paladin would most likley try to find a way to fix the underlying problem and make the community stronger while reforming the child.
Jibidy
03-14-06, 11:42 AM ya major no no, i'd only accept that if he was a dwarf from like .....calimshan where that kind of thing may be the way theft is delt with (or whatever middleast equvilant you want) but that's a bit much, and i agree with the others, LG means something very specific and you have to stick to it, especially if your a paladin

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Werwoelfin 02-09-06, 09:24 AM	Last night we played a little adventure (not part of a campaign) near Waterdeep. The village we were sent to was a trading post and we had to investigate the theft of some valuable goods. In our group was a dwarven paladin of Clangeddin who asked about what would be done with the thieves. That would be uncertain was the answer. Since there were regularly little contraventions, something as big as this one has never happened before. We were also informed that there is a court. The paladin than brags that now with him arrived there would be someone who would be able to decide. During the night we found a halfling bum (I hope this word is okay - I`m not a native english speaker), a child of a nearby gypsy community. He just searched for a dry place to sleep. The paladin and (at the next morning) the shopkeeper admonished him but let him go. Later we found out that again some goods were missing and some of us - including the paladin - were going to search the halfling. They found him in another shop were he were hiding. He has pocketed some (not much) tabac and declared it as "theft of food" (I found no better translation but I hope you understand what I mean). To come to the point the paladin cut off one of the child's hands for this little theft - altough neither the community was not a dwarven one nor he had permission or sth like that from the local court or anyone else there. The player argued this would be okay for a fantasy middle-age setting like the Forgotten Realms. So, now I ask you: What do you think about this?
Karsus the Mad 02-09-06, 10:01 AM	Uhh...Paladin of chopping off kids hands? Doesn't sound particularly nice to me:P I'd say he'd have to atone for that. One, he's a paladin, not a vigilante'. He can't simply walk into another domain and ignore the local laws as he sees fit (well, I guess he can, since he lopped a kids hand off for petty theft) without the local (and legal) authorities taking appropriate (and again, legal) action against the paladin.
Zevox 02-09-06, 10:06 AM	Well, I'd say that its very likely that the community wouldn't like it, depending on thier own views. Remember that the beliefs of places in the Realms do not everywhere match up exactly with what things were like in old medievil communities (actually, pretty few, if any, do), and I don't think places around Waterdeep aren't amongst those that do. In all likelihood I could see them trying to arrest him or drive him out of town. I don't think Clangeddin would have any objections though, so this isn't a case of a fallen Paladin. Zevox
selunatic2397 02-09-06, 10:06 AM	Loss of Paladinhood! Apparently the "hero" forgot that one of the qualities of paladinhood is that of Mercy. One should always temper the punishment to the severity of the crime. Theft of food probably should be punished by feeding him a good meal, and finding out why he had to steal...was there no honest work to do? Did he have a string of bad luck and a poor sickly mother to support? Perhaps find him some day labor at the nearest church of the hero's faith. I'd expect that response from a barbarian but not from a paladin!
Alac Luin 02-09-06, 10:13 AM	We were also informed that there is a court. The most acceptable action would be to take the halfling to this court. The paladin than brags that now with him arrived there would be someone who would be able to decide. Fear the paladin that is prideful in this manner. A paladin may want others to feel this way about him, but making these claims himself about himself is heading down the road to evil. Note: The paladin made no reference to Clangeddin having the wisdom to dispense justice. It sounds like the paladin makes these claims about himself, thus placing himself as an equal of the deity he claims to serve. To come to the point the paladin cut off one of the child's hands for this little theft - altough neither the community was not a dwarven one nor he had permission or sth like that from the local court or anyone else there. The player argued this would be okay for a fantasy middle-age setting like the Forgotten Realms. So, now I ask you: What do you think about this? I do not know what the laws are in this particular town. But, unless the halfling had stolen something from the paladin, the paladin had no right to dispense any form of justice, occasionally the wronged party can dispense justice. Yes, cutting off the hand of a thief is a valid punishment, but this paladin did not seem to have the legal right to do so. His actions do not sound OK for a lawful good paladin to take.
justanotherdwarf 02-09-06, 10:44 AM	well ..if ya think about it a paladin can be the most evil person even doing a holy quest there is no gray to a pally only black and white a lie is a lie and theft is theft but the punishment was alittle to much. arresting the child (ie taking him to the local guards) would have been a more paladin like thing to do even if the child was useing the theft of food to servive....and local customs mean nothing to a pally ....the slave trade in some areas is looked on as nothing more than trade in some parts of the realms i dont think many pallys would let that stand
justanotherdwarf 02-09-06, 10:56 AM	just to add this im not sayin what was done was right im just sayin pallys can go over the top and still be true to there character...( a farmer hides is friend in his house, the pally is after the farmers friend, the farmer tries to stop the pally from entering the house and blocks the way "he has is pitch fork" the pally cuts him down.....sadly for the farmer his friend is a cleric of cyric killed may good people but the farmer only knew his a an old and good friend)..a LG pall killed a LG farmer helping a good friend in his eyes good and evil to a holy person are sometimes very black and very white its that sily gray that get them in trouble all the time
Alac Luin 02-09-06, 10:58 AM	....the slave trade in some areas is looked on as nothing more than trade in some parts of the realms i dont think many pallys would let that stand In some parts of the realms, paladins are masters of slaves. In the area I'm thinking about, slaves are property of the church that the paladin belongs to. This is one of the things that make paladins different depending on the deities they serve.
Alac Luin 02-09-06, 11:05 AM	just to add this im not sayin what was done was right im just sayin pallys can go over the top and still be true to there character...( a farmer hides is friend in his house, the pally is after the farmers friend, the farmer tries to stop the pally from entering the house and blocks the way "he has is pitch fork" the pally cuts him down.....sadly for the farmer his friend is a cleric of cyric killed may good people but the farmer only knew his a an old and good friend)..a LG pall killed a LG farmer helping a good friend in his eyes good and evil to a holy person are sometimes very black and very white its that sily gray that get them in trouble all the time This in no way similar to cutting off the hand of a halfling child. Cutting down an armed opponent (the farmer did have a pichfork if I read that correctly) is differnt then disfiguring a helpless captive.
Werwoelfin 02-09-06, 11:32 AM	I'm not very familiar with Clangeddin. In Faiths and Pantheons it seems that he is a good of war, so I'm a bit confused what made the paladin's player think he would be a better judge than everyone else in this town. We've had a less experienced DM, so the action has had no consequences for the paladin - yet. Our DM thinks about another little adventure where the paladin have to guard the gypsy community to another place but is not allowed to hurt one of them, in any case. All the way the halflings will play tricks on him (like try to sell him a guard dog etc.). The mother of the child has been eaten by a troll. The child has told us this but the paladin did not believe him. (It later turns out to be the truth.) I can not tell what happend later because I left before finishing. I didn't want my (nearly exalted) CG aasimar to do something stupid I would regret later.
loki87 02-09-06, 01:50 PM	It really depends on the setting, and the background of the paladin, his deity, and his culture. In this case, I think it would be a little out of character for a dwarven paladin of the war god to be cutting children's hand's off for theft. I'm not sure if I would go as far as stripping him of his paladinhood, but I think an atonement of some kind if probably in order. Generally speaking, paladins are not vigilantes and will simply hand over a thief to the local authorities for proper punishment.
Kid SixXx 02-09-06, 02:15 PM	It really depends on the setting, and the background of the paladin, his deity, and his culture. Indeed. Perhaps in the Dwarf's culture, the halfling kid got off easy with the mere loss of a hand. After all, the halfling was still alive and would probably think twice (after glancing at the stump where his hand used to be) before stealing again. Ultimately, I'd have the paladin atone for this: the Dwarf did not have to take matters into his own hands (pardon the unintentional pun). He could have let local authorities deal with the thief once he had proof of the crime. If the DM wanted to be mean, he could have had the watch throw the Dwarf paladin in the stockades for brandishing steel within city limits without warrant or permit from the Lords.
loki87 02-09-06, 02:59 PM	Indeed. Perhaps in the Dwarf's culture, the halfling kid got off easy with the mere loss of a hand. Well, that's why I followed my statement with, "in this case..." I don't think the normal shield or gold dwarven culture in Faerun would condone this kind of behavior. Both groups tend heavily towards goodness, and I haven't seen anything that would lead me to believe that they are so harsh. Now if it were a wild dwarf, things might be a little different.
King-bargh 02-09-06, 05:02 PM	I dont know how Clangedinn looks at it but I have a suggestion how the town reacts. First the law in town have to react unless they are willing to let any adventurer with a holysymbol mess around with so first they should have him arrested. Then after a trial he would quite likly be found guilty for assault with deadly weapon. Witch is punished with a hefty fine....unless the victim was seriuosly injured! In wich its a hanging offence. But since the guilty part is a paladin the court feels moved the easen the punishment to....beheading! Now let a person, a priest perhaps stand up and defend the paladin, stating how he acted with the goal of good in his heart if not in action etc. The court thinks it over and declares that they are moved by this and in their mercy they change the verdict to...loss of a hand. The Pally can even pick wich one! :D
Calrond 02-12-06, 01:59 AM	I agree with the loss of the hand, although I would also make the statement that "The paladin will either lose a hand, the same hand that he cut off the child regardless of how the paladin feels about this, OR he can pay to have a cleric restore the child's hand and pay a fine (to the child or his closest kin) equal to a year's worth of the child's meals (and to be spent on such by whoever recieves the gold), since it was obvious that he stole the food in hunger." To me, a paladin should seek out and eliminate the root of the evil, in this case, the boy's hunger, rather than punish those who do it. Show mercy to the people, but change their circumstances so that they don't feel led to do evil. A paladin should even instruct the boy on why stealing was wrong and can be very harsh in this, but ultimately should help the boy out rather than maim a child for stealing out of hunger. I would expect that behavior from a blackguard or a sadist, but not a LG paladin. The paladin should see it as an opportunity to teach the concepts of "right" and "wrong", not a chance to take the law into his own hands. However, in the magic-filled land of Faerun, all is not lost, and the boy's hand can be restored. After this is done, and restitution is made and the paladin has done everything he can to restore his relationship with society, he should then cast an atonement spell to restore his relationship with his deity. His deity should then smack him once for being too quick to act and too slow to think. Finally, after all this is done, the paladin has restored everything to the way it was and has made life better for the boy, albeit he did it the hard way. Calrond
Purple Dragon Knight 02-12-06, 11:33 AM	Clangeddin is a god of war. A holy, blessed warrior of his faith witnessing a young halfling stealing would either: 1) say something like "Hunger and poverty: two of the most powerful reasons to go to war. Yet, in human cities such as this one, and other places that have grown an elite so rich and powerful that they can defend the territory just by themselves, through their minions, hunger and poverty is forgotten and ignored. To these poor sods, the homeland becomes the enemy, the target of their future wars and battle. Friends, what you see here is a warrior in training, honing his skills so he can one day join a thieves' guild, a rebel faction or some other organization, whether criminal or law-abiding, that will oppose the poor leaders of this city. Hunger has a way to balance the advantages that the few gain over the many through wealth or power."; or 2) arrest the kid and deliver him to the authorities, and on his way there, think about a suitable "additional duty" for the kid to perform; 3) provoke the kid into a duel: "if you win, keep the loaf of bread; if you lose, you shall lead me to your clan and with their authorization, follow me around for a year's time, serving as my squire."
Bobothebard 02-13-06, 05:57 AM	Rgardless of culture, and laws of the land a paladin should ALLWAYS take the lesser "evil" in his solutions to problems..... here the paladin should have talked to the halfling boy, perhaps spanked him and sent him home crying....with some SPs for a meal........Lawful GOOD is GOOD, lawful neutral is a JUDGE........ I say let the paladin take up a mission to redeem him self, and find a way to heal/have the hand grow back. Bad Paladin, bad very bad paladin
johnis 02-13-06, 07:11 AM	I'm seek of Pcs playing paladins just for their advantages. Calrond is 100% right. Ok maybe it could be accepted in a different culture -maybe the paladin's- but still paladins are the incarnation of good and order in this world. They have a code of honor and this is a HUGE disadvantage in game terms. But everybody loves the abilities so he takes the class. TAKE IT ONLY IF YOU CAN RP DUDE!! I think if a NG would think about donig sth twice -ie cutting a hand- a LG would not even consider it. But say "his culture" accepts it. Then talk to the child, embrace it, teach him good, make him regret and then give him his hand back. You are a paladin, treat the child's hand as yours.
ClobberinTime 02-13-06, 04:17 PM	Maybe LN but certainly not anywhere near LG
hreslingozer 02-16-06, 12:36 PM	Looks like the paladin is a little confused about his code, and part of the problem lies with the DM. In a lawless place, where a paladin is the only source of justice and order, it might be okay for him to act as judge and administer this punishment to an adult felon. Never, however, when it is a child commiting the act, there is a legal system and code in place, and the motive is poverty. When stuff like this comes up, I always give a little hint "in the back of your mind, a voice whispers -- have mercy on this little one." What should he have done? Bought for the child the rest of the property he tried to steal, give it to him, and say "My child, remember this act of mercy I bestow upon you. Seek the church, and dedicate yourself to its service, for you are lost and have been found." Then make arrangements with the local church to provide a position for the boy, and include a donation to cover the first year's wages. Another soul saved.
Ocrus of Wessek 02-18-06, 11:25 AM	I was under the impression that LG meant a paladin followed the laws of whatever nation he was in, whether he liked it or not because, paladins have to be diplomatic... lets put it this way, a paladin may not like slavery, it may be contrary to his code of honor, but if he is travelling through Thay he's not going to attack every slave caravan he sees, because then he would be part of the problem. The only time a paladin gets to follow thier code of honor over the laws of a soveriegn nation or village is when there is danger to the wellbeing of the town as a whole, or the crime was committed against the paladins church, say the kid had stolen from huge amounts of gold from the churches coffers, or the town treasury, even so he's a paladin, his mind shouldn't immediately go to CUT OFF HIS HAND...
Ivelios2 02-19-06, 10:14 PM	First of all let me explain lawful good. Lawful good does not mean you will follow the laws of whatever land you are in for example if the laws of a land are directly opposed to a paladins morals it is in fact a paladins duty to defy them. Lawful mean that you favor order over chaos in a land with an evil ruler and laws a paladin would most likley try to overthrow him and instill a kind and wise ruler recreating the order of the land. Next this would absolutley make this paladin lose his paladin abilities this act is the very definition of lawful evil. Lawful good rules through the trust love and respect of the people trying to solve problems with their help. Lawful evil rules the people through blatent violence and the instillment of fear in the populace to keep them in line which is what this punishment is designed to do. Finally Claggadin would never ever condone the torture and disfigurment of a helpless person he is a good god. This in no way was an act of good, honor, or war the very things he stands for. He like all dwarven gods preeches the protection and nurishment of the dwarven community any dwarf led astray would be given every oppritunity to rejoin the fold. As for a creature stealing for food that is more the fault of the community then the child for allowing such a thing to happen in that town and the paladin would most likley try to find a way to fix the underlying problem and make the community stronger while reforming the child.
Jibidy 03-14-06, 11:42 AM	ya major no no, i'd only accept that if he was a dwarf from like .....calimshan where that kind of thing may be the way theft is delt with (or whatever middleast equvilant you want) but that's a bit much, and i agree with the others, LG means something very specific and you have to stick to it, especially if your a paladin