Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Sir_Wolfgar 11-19-06, 07:09 PM	Okay, I know this may shock people, but I have added and subtracted a few things from the canon material as I saw fit. Nothing to inconceivable, but decidely different. I'm interested in hearing what other's have added or changed in the Realms. This isn't a thread to discuss the validity of things according to published material, but it interests me to see why you decided to change things as well. As for myself, I wanted Sembia to feel like renaissance Italy, full of political intrigure and mafia like activites, so I gave the NPCs I created Italian surnames, and titles like Don as well as Lord. In Waterdeep, I created a little Chinatown type section in the tradeward, to help add to the metropolitan feel, and to have a place where one of the PCs, a monk from Kara-tur, could find exotic equipment easily.
Lord Karsus 11-19-06, 09:00 PM	In Waterdeep, I created a little Chinatown type section in the tradeward, to help add to the metropolitan feel, and to have a place where one of the PCs, a monk from Kara-tur, could find exotic equipment easily. -That is a good idea. I like that one! :) -I, myself, have only DMed in the Realms once, a while ago, and that ended in a brief failure. But, were I to DM in the Realms again, here's a few things I would change: -Telamont Tanthul would not actually be Lord Shadow, but instead, an impostor. -Kara-Tur would not be so ignored. The continent and their people/goods would have more of a prominent role. -Spelljammers would not be so ignored. They would play a more prominent role. -The Netherese Enclave of Opus would not exist. I never liked the "Opposite" of Shade existing- too much of a cliche for me.
BrennonGoldeye 11-19-06, 10:15 PM	Lord Karsus-Yada yada yada. Yes, being the basis for motion, charge, dynamics and just about frickin everything else makes opposites cliche. Just ask the two Goddesses reposible for the cities, oh wait, there too cliche to bring up. :P Sir_Wolfgar- Excellent ideas. I'm moving to Saerloon and chaging my name to Vito.:D
Lord Karsus 11-19-06, 10:43 PM	Lord Karsus-Yada yada yada. Yes, being the basis for motion, charge, dynamics and just about frickin everything else makes opposites cliche. Just ask the two Goddesses reposible for the cities, oh wait, there too cliche to bring up. :P -You, Brennon, are getting a bit too uppity. Do I have to enspell you? ;)
Karsus the Mad 11-20-06, 01:29 AM	I don't play or DM anymore, but when I did some changes happened throughout gameplay. 1. Ioulaum is nolonger a brain. He's taken the form of a small child in Silverymoon just beginning to learn spells. 2. The border kingdoms are loosely united and governed by the High Pasha of Suldophor, who's also ruler of a large empire surrounding the Lake of Steam, down to Tashalar. 3. The gods play a near absent role in the affairs of mortals. 4. Lantan is further along in technology than currently known. They're masters of clockwork engineering. And the main reason why the technology doesn't spread beyond Lantan is because the Order of Arcane Engineers actively seek to prevent it. 5. The elves haven't made a large return to Faerun. 6. Myth Drannor is still a monster infested ruin. 7. The drow stay underground. 8. The shadow weave is inaccessible to PCs.
TonyMontana1638 11-20-06, 02:16 AM	1. Undead are not blasted away instantaneously by Silver Fire... By this I mean Larloch, Shoon and the like aren't at the mercy of the Chosen. 2. No Imaskari portals transplanting forgotten Egyptian cultures. ;) 3. There are more epic level warriros and they do so stand a chance against mages. :P 4. Telamont isn't Lord Shadow... Because Karsus says so, and he's smarter than me. :D 5. Drizzt do'Urden died a heroic death at some point. :rolleyes: 6. Opus is ******* me off too, need to remove that or at least keep it off ona different plane somewhere. I'm a selune fanboy, but, as others have said, that' just too cliche'd for me.
theartistformerlyknownas 11-20-06, 04:19 AM	A hundred years or so down the road, Caecilcarn and Myth Drannor are both major empires, The Silver Marches is "New Delzoun", after Silverymoon and Everlund have been wiped off the map by the Nation of Zhentilar. After the Arcane Brotherhood made their deal with the devil, they are sold out to the Black Lord (and by extension, the Church of Bane and the Zhentarim). The Dwarf Citadels, being the only survivors of the Zhent conquest, make an alliance with the Shadovar (who have restored the Anarouch to its former lushness) to serve as vassals in exchange of magical protection. King Obould has left a powerful legacy with his Kingdom of Many Arrows, which has dominated the Spine of the World Mountains and unified the Orcs in the most organized and impressive Horde since the Orcgate Wars. Lead by a Priest-King ordained by Gruumsh every generation, the Orcs have dominated every monstrous race in the region, from the lowliest goblins to the infamous Drow (now an endangered species due to the actions of Obould's Orog brethren).
Red_Wizard 11-20-06, 10:15 AM	-Telamont Tanthul would not actually be Lord Shadow, but instead, an impostor. How come, just out of curiosity? 2. No Imaskari portals transplanting forgotten Egyptian cultures. ;) So then no mulhorand, no Imaskar fall, no thay, no Thayan enclaves, Eltab never let loose on the world, and the land of Thay and mulhorand held by someone else entirely(Presumably the other slaves the Imaskar brought through ;)) Not so much a small change, as an entire re-write of FR history, and current cultures.
Lord Karsus 11-20-06, 01:45 PM	4. Telamont isn't Lord Shadow... Because Karsus says so, and he's smarter than me. :D -Heh, that's a keeper. I like that quote...:) How come, just out of curiosity? -Though other people disagree, I have always believed Telamont and Lord Shadow two different people. The Lord Shadow that we are introduced to in Netheril: Empire of Magic does not match at all who/what Telemont Tanthul is. Sure, you can always chalk up some of the change to the time he spent on the Plane of Shadows, but there is only so much you can blatently make up. Shadowbred has cleared up some of this, but before the novel, there were many loose ends, such as where Lord Shadow/Telamont's wife Alashar was, why Lord Shadow was LN, and Telamont LE, why Lord Shadow disappeared, and why Telamont rules in his stead. It's all a mess...
Red_Wizard 11-20-06, 06:46 PM	-Though other people disagree, I have always believed Telamont and Lord Shadow two different people. The Lord Shadow that we are introduced to in Netheril: Empire of Magic does not match at all who/what Telemont Tanthul is. Sure, you can always chalk up some of the change to the time he spent on the Plane of Shadows, but there is only so much you can blatently make up. Shadowbred has cleared up some of this, but before the novel, there were many loose ends, such as where Lord Shadow/Telamont's wife Alashar was, why Lord Shadow was LN, and Telamont LE, why Lord Shadow disappeared, and why Telamont rules in his stead. It's all a mess... I know your saying the same thing i'm going to answer you with, but all that is easily explained away by entering the plane of shadow, and infusing ones self with shadow stuff. I mean his wife could, and possibly did get killed by any number of creatures on the plane of shadow, the most likely of which would have been the Maulgrym. The death of ones wife, leaving him with a dozen sons to raise, infused with shadow, and living in a world where only the truly cruel can survive is enough to turn any man to evil. A good example of the type of change ones mind might suffer from the loss of a wife, while on the Shadow plane is the short story in Realms of Shadow where just such a thing happened. Also, it is easy enough to surmise that perhaps with the death of his wife, and birth of his sons, and all he had gone through leading up to that point, that he might simply take on an alternate persona, perhaps even so far as to begin to believe he truly is Telemont, and no longer lord shadow. This could be achieved and believed fairly easily by those around him, by faking his death along with his wife, and leaving "telemont" (Lord Shadow now infused with shadow) in his place. I understand that this leaves alot of guess work to the readers, but keeping Shade an interesting, and unexplained enigma i enjoy thuroughly, and since few survived from Netherils fall, and none save those on shade knew of its going ons, i think it isn't to much of a stretch to have those few things, atleast by us, explained away by his time in that plane. Sides, weirder things have happened.....like a mortal stealing the portfolio of a god, crashing whole cities to the ground, (over looking the oddity of one flying in the first place :P) puffing up like a bag of pop corn, and remaining a twisted mass of bleading stone in a haunted wood for all eternity, possibly to relive the moment of destruction over and over again for all eterrnity ;) :P
Sir_Wolfgar 11-20-06, 06:59 PM	Well, Mr. (or Miss) Red_Wizard, How have you changed the Realms? If you are trying to stick to canon that's fine, but surely you must have changed something around?
Red_Wizard 11-20-06, 07:18 PM	Honestly, nothing. I'm don't like messing with something that is written and set, only changing up when it is revised, and then i don't use the prior stuff, even if i liked it better. It's odd i know, and i'm not really sure why i'm like that. That said, i don't have anything against anyone else changing what they want, so if anyone is taking that from my remarks, i apoligize for it :). Just like to bounce opinions around and see where others stand, and why :)
MaskedOne 11-20-06, 07:46 PM	-You, Brennon, are getting a bit too uppity. Do I have to enspell you? ;) Hmm, while being uppity to great rocks and ghosts is typically my job and therefore someone may be encroaching. Casual enthralling shall not be tolerated. Of course, I'm liable to enforce that by relocating people out of your easy reach and Elysium has its own odd side effects. :)
Lord Karsus 11-20-06, 07:52 PM	I understand that this leaves alot of guess work to the readers, but keeping Shade an interesting, and unexplained enigma i enjoy thuroughly, and since few survived from Netherils fall, and none save those on shade knew of its going ons, i think it isn't to much of a stretch to have those few things, atleast by us, explained away by his time in that plane. -The novel Shadowbred explains a lot of stuff, like how Alashar died, why Telamont follows Shar, why Shades exist on the enclave, amont other things. But, like you said, there is still a lot of guesswork that had to be done. It's like anticipating five steps ahead in a chess game. There's a whole 'nother thread to discuss all that. Sides, weirder things have happened.....like a mortal stealing the portfolio of a god, crashing whole cities to the ground, (over looking the oddity of one flying in the first place :P) puffing up like a bag of pop corn, and remaining a twisted mass of bleading stone in a haunted wood for all eternity, possibly to relive the moment of destruction over and over again for all eterrnity ;) :P :rolleye2: -Like something like that can happen...:cool:
Old Sage 11-20-06, 07:56 PM	2. The border kingdoms are loosely united and governed by the High Pasha of Suldophor, who's also ruler of a large empire surrounding the Lake of Steam, down to Tashalar.Very interesting Karsus. Given my own particular interest in anything related to Ed's wonderful work on the Border Kingdoms, I wouldn't mind hearing a little more about your campaign's background lore surrounding such a change to the region?
BrennonGoldeye 11-20-06, 07:58 PM	-You, Brennon, are getting a bit too uppity. Do I have to enspell you? ;) Enspell me? .. How Cliche.. ;)
Lord Karsus 11-20-06, 08:01 PM	Enspell me? .. How Cliche.. ;) -Not in the way I am imagining...:plotting:
BrennonGoldeye 11-20-06, 08:18 PM	-Not in the way I am imagining...:plotting: ........................:p: :m: :mage: :m: :p:.......................... ........Lets go, might even get XP from this one........
BrennonGoldeye 11-20-06, 08:26 PM	No seriously. I don't have access to Shadowbred. I didn't know of the connections between the SW and Karsus and Tanthul that were brought to light. I'm not sure of my opinion on that particular explantion of the origin of the SW. Honestly I have always thought that Telamont was if fact Lord Shadow. Is it truly that much of a problem? Or is it the SW arguement that is the crux? :)
Lord Karsus 11-20-06, 08:32 PM	-I'd put down the Fireball if I were you. Don't bite off more than you can chew. ;) -Don't forget, I have all those defective Clones. I might find a use for 'em all. :invasion: -Now, as I alluded to before, what I was thinking includes a pair of rabid Tall Mouthers, a one-eyed Dwelf, a bar or two of soap, a spell that causes a temporal loop, and a trip to the Far Realm... -That should be interesting...
Karsus the Mad 11-20-06, 08:34 PM	Very interesting Karsus. Given my own particular interest in anything related to Ed's wonderful work on the Border Kingdoms, I wouldn't mind hearing a little more about your campaign's background lore surrounding such a change to the region? It's pretty long, but I'll give a short rundown of it. It actually happened LONG (back in the latter days of 2e) before the article Ed released or Powers of Faerun. I suppose one could say it was because of a lack of such things it happened:) I sooooooo wish what we know know was released back then:P Anyhoo, it actually started with my first, and only 2e character (that I played in highscool, right before 3e). Istazar (pronounced EE-STa-Tssar). He was a noble, the son of the pasha of Suldophor. He was pretty decent with military tactics and such, and more importantly he was easily able to inspire his troops. He eventually became pasha of Suldophor, and Eastern Governer (the term the DM used) for Calimshan, who held legal rights to the area, if not in actuality. My first acts as pasha of Suldophor was to limit expenses of the governing body. This was obviously a horrid mistake at first. So many corrupt officials and what not. Without going into great detail (primarily because I can't remember much of my highschool days:D), I held a decent enough treasury to higher mercenary armies from chessenta and the border kingoms to overrun Almraiven and destroy Calimshan's major ability to sustain a navy. After that it was primarily strike and run whenever Calimshan attempted to send troops through the Alamir mountains (that's when they were able to get through the spider swamps, which wasn't easy:D). I suppose they could have tried sending troops through the forest of Mir, but I had (apparently to my good senses) assumed they'd never risk the elves territory. Once they tried sending troops north of the Alamir mountains and then south along the coast, but I had anticipated that several sessions before and had previously fortified Yeshpek and had a small armada ready for ballista bombardment and resupply of my lines. It eventually led to a truce, with me holding all the lands from the spider swamp and border of the forest of mir to the lake of steam. After 3e came out and I started DMing myself, I turned Istazar into an NPC, who overtime had taken over Mintar and "subjecated" the border kingdoms either through brides, intimidation, or outright conquering. They're still rather loose in their identity and "subservience" but as long as they don't bother the provinces outside their borders they're tolerated. eeek. I've gone off and rambled again.... I have a map I made of my territory if you're interested. It shows army movements and whatnot, which may not be interesting. ........................ .......................... ........Lets go, might even get XP from this one........ Reply With Quote Dude...put down the fireball....I can understand you're upset...who wouldn't be when faced with their own inferiority compared to the Karsi? We're just too great for mortal comprehension...but no need to blow up the rest of the forum....really now...like LK said, you don't wanna go and bite off more than you can chew...so why don't you just put the handful of flaming bat crap down, hmmmmm? P.S. really now...can't believe you're holding bat poop...at least we have the self respect to have eschew material components as a feat:D
DM_Shonuff 11-20-06, 08:49 PM	A huge city-state, the size of Waterdeep has been forged out of the southern tip of the Mhair jungle. (Bottom of the published map) the two villages down there ( mhairial or something) have been swallowed and incorporated. This town was made as a southern trading alternative to the Sword coast. It was created by a human who brought the teachings of Vhaeraun to the surface. Gifting thehuman king with the visage of a tall drow, The city was formed as a peaceful alternative to Vhaeraun's thinking. "We make a deal with our god. if they do not come through, we stop worshipping." a familiar rasheman's thinking toward religion " see Daughter of the Drow" which has worked so far. The Hills/mountains to the North is teemed with a STRONG blood vein of dwarves, who have cut themselves off from the slow decay of their Northern kin. They helped the Drow and humans build this "Southern Waterdeep". (Like skullport and waterdeep, and Neverwinter all above ground and dark) A player character Paladin has ascended to the title of Shield of Mystra ( Demigod of defensive magic for Mystra) His brother has taken the title of Magister from Elminster ( go to bed old man) and has brought the teachings of Mystra to Elves. IN the center of Lurien, land of the Halflings, a large Castle of obsidian has appeared and enslaved the entire halfling world there. (good for catapault ammo) Neverwinter was destroyed in a war and is in process of rebuilding. Mithril halls has shut itself of and are like communist china. (rebuilding the stock) Loth drow have been curse with NOT having their powers work on the surface like it should be. Elminster has ascended to be beside the Throne of Mystra. Blackstaff is THE new Elminster. Karatur had invaded and due to the Red wizard's interrferance, half of the dragon wall mountains are gone, allowing free trade in most of Faerun. oh, and i'm still Ao's boss.
Lord Karsus 11-20-06, 09:00 PM	His brother has taken the title of Magister from Elminster ( go to bed old man) -Elminster never held the title of Magister. and has brought the teachings of Mystra to Elves. -The Fair Folk already have a healthy amount of respect and awe for the Lady of Mysteries. In fact, many of them worship her. The Srinshee is even her Chosen! Blackstaff is THE new Elminster. -Khelben "The Blackstaff" Arunson, is dead, as per 1374 DR. Karatur had invaded and due to the Red wizard's interrferance, half of the dragon wall mountains are gone, allowing free trade in most of Faerun. -What happened to all of the Tuigan? They wouldn't simply allow the Shou to trample them (By Kara-tur, I assume you mean Shou Lung). And, the Dragonwall was not a mountain. It was a man-made wall, bound with the essence of a dragon (which has since left).
Dark Wizard 11-20-06, 09:58 PM	I haven't DMed many games. For FR, I made Berdusk the capital of a loose confederation of city-states in the Western Heartlands. Along with that I altered the Harpers a bit. They're still a semi-secret society but I made the main branch in Berdusk more monolithic, something like a mix between a paramilitary version of an intelligence agency and special forces mixed amongst usual the bards, rangers, gods, and supernatural elements. Oh, I also increased the ties between Faerun and Kara-Tur, with various changes in flavor and layout for the latter.
MerrikCale 11-21-06, 01:04 PM	I haven't changed it much. I have edited bits of Neverwinter such as creating temples to Selune and Shaundakul. I have created an order of vampire knights that have taken over the ravaged Nesme. I have also recently introduced a band of high powered Warlocks who have secretly taken control of the Arcane and placed an agent in s Sharran cell. No one knows of the existence of these few warlocks except for a select few. And some other minor changes such as these.
Ramrod_The_Wizard 11-21-06, 09:06 PM	Well this is for a theoretical campiagn im making. Basically i have condensed the realms quite a bit, changed some other minor things, and advanced the timeline. A cold war type thing is develping with various superpowers -Mulhorand has fully conqured and stablized Unther, and has asserted its authority over Murghom, and the unclaimed grey territory. It is currently eying up Chessenta, which a significant portion of its population support annexation. Thay is currently preparing for war, the lords of magic are worried. -The Silverymoon Compact has extended to take in the High Forest and Everska, and is stabalizing the wester portion of the savage froniter and the region slightly north. Thier stated goal is unite the Northwest, and talks with Waterdeep are currently underway. -Calimsham in the wake of the civil war and various other crisis have annexed Tethyr for "diplomatic" purposes. The lake of steam and the border kingdoms have fallen into the fold, thus making Calimshan the unquestioned economic powerhouse of Faerun. -The Dales, Cormyr, and Sembia have merged into the Federation of the Fallen Stars. This was due to the nessesity of a combined effort agains the incursions of the Zhentrim of Moonsea, and the Shades. They control the central sea with thier powerful navy. -On a lesser note, Estagund, Durpar, and Var The Golden have become the Kingdom of Durpar. Detached from Faerunian politics, they are mostly concerned with incursions from Veldorn and the next seasons harvest.
BrennonGoldeye 11-21-06, 09:39 PM	DM_Shonuff... Very interesting....odd....but interesting:) 2/3 Karsus... Components... How quaint...I had 2 classes under my belt before you were stated... Some of us actually survived our 40's..;) Dark Wizard... Shhhhhh, thats why I had to move to Saerloon:incog: MerrikCale... Warlocks can be fun!:help: Ramrod_The_Wizard... Your Mulhorand sounds grand. Mind if I buy a beachhouse??:plotting:
Lord Karsus 11-21-06, 10:52 PM	2/3 Karsus... Components... How quaint...I had 2 classes under my belt before you were stated... Some of us actually survived our 40's..;) -Don't rouse more of our pseudodivine anger...
Lord_Madrigan 11-22-06, 11:31 AM	Well so far the changes I have made are. 1: The Elvin "Crusade" In Myth Drannor Ended Badly for all sides One of the Fay'ri used a magic artifact that reacted Poorly with the Mythal and collapsed it, resulting in every living thing in the Mythals area of effect to become stone 2: Mulhorand has come under attack by an unknown third party made up of Kir-lanan and magical constructs Skuld has been left in Flames after the army "appeared out of thin air" only to Disappear after causing large scale destruction and mayhem. more to follow depending on how my players fare.
wesleytj 11-22-06, 02:48 PM	The primary thing I've changed/added to the Realms is that like Mystra, Shar has produced some "Chosen" that get "Darkfire" instead of "Starfire", and most of the same other bonuses and abilities that chosen of Mystra get. They also set up their strongholds in Dead Magic zones in the Weave, setting their opponents at great disadvantages if they trespass. If there are no dead magic zones in the weave that suit the Chosen in question, hey, isn't that what "Wish" spells are for? At present, Shar has 3 Chosen in Faerun. One lives on the Sword Coast, one in Mulhorand, and one in Chessenta. They are working to spread the influence and usage of the shadow weave, and therefore of course more followers of Shar in the process. They represent a major threat to the good races and people of Faerun, to say the least, and barely anyone even knows of their existence.
MerrikCale 11-22-06, 04:48 PM	At present, Shar has 3 Chosen in Faerun. One lives on the Sword Coast, one in Mulhorand, and one in Chessenta. They are working to spread the influence and usage of the shadow weave, and therefore of course more followers of Shar in the process. They represent a major threat to the good races and people of Faerun, to say the least, and barely anyone even knows of their existence. I like that a lot. Are they major behind the scenes villians?
Azezel 11-22-06, 06:13 PM	I am currently prepping for an FR game and have made a few changes (though I will put all of them to player vote before the campaign starts) 1) Unless otherwise stated, the only cannon is the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting & The Player's Guide to Faerun. All other books/novels/fanfics/realmslore is inadmissable. Also, it is ten years after the Year of Wild Magic - those years have been fairly calm and uneventful, on a global scale. 2) The Time of Troubles never happened and the current pantheon is retconned. Unless otherwise stated, all deities are and always have been as they are presented in the FRCS. 2) Mystra is dead, Kelemvor killed her. Magic functions normally, but All Dead Magic/Wild Magic zones disapeared, as well as the Weave and Shadow weave. There is now no deity of arcane magic. Kelemvor may or may not hold the portfolio, he will not say, but if he does he does not use its influence at all. All Chosen of Mystra lost thier powers and got a few permanent negative levels into the bargain. Everyone who used to worship Mystra is really rather embarised about the whole thing. 3) Dragons of any colour can be any alignment. 4) The deities almost never personally interact with the Realms - that's what Clerics are for. This is the only point I will not abandon, even if every one of my players dispute it (Somehow, I doubt they will) - I will not have anything to do with that ghastly soap opera that Ed calls a pantheon. I am this close to simply eschewing the whole pack of them and running FR with the Greyhawk gods. That is it. It looks like a lot of major changes, but really, it is just my neutering the gods, and trying to avoid having to read 1'000 cr***y novels.
Faraer 11-22-06, 07:28 PM	Your 4 is exactly the case in the official Realms, despite the misleading picture given by the Avatar sequels. If you haven't read them, where did you get that false impression?
Dark Wizard 11-22-06, 07:41 PM	#1 - Interesting move to keep strong DM control of a game. #2 - A lot of DMs/Players ignore the ToT. I think even Ed Greenwood's home campaign doesn't use the ToT, though that's probably because his game hasn't progressed to that point yet. #3 (4) - Already the case in D&D in general, uncommon but quite possible. #4 (5) - Aye, the ToT was ... meh.
wesleytj 11-22-06, 10:19 PM	I like that a lot. Are they major behind the scenes villians? Oh most definitely. I built a whole campaign particularly about the one in the Sword Coast. In fact, she was based on a PC from a campaign that had been run a few years before with evil characters. She was a priestess of Shar who went on to become the first "Chosen of Shar" after almost singlehandedly destroying a Selunite mountain monastery. She then recruited the other two and sent them on missions to spread the use of the Shadow Weave, while she herself remained in the Sword Coast. She built a major fortress that I based off of Ironfang Keep in the FR book, in a natural dead magic zone in a forest, on a river waterfall, just like Ironfang Keep. The dead magic, combined with the adult shadow dragon she kept in the keep that she had trained in the Shadow Weave, made for quite the challenging final encounter of the campaign.
Lord Karsus 11-23-06, 12:35 AM	2) The Time of Troubles never happened and the current pantheon is retconned. Unless otherwise stated, all deities are and always have been as they are presented in the FRCS. 2) Mystra is dead, Kelemvor killed her. Magic functions normally, but All Dead Magic/Wild Magic zones disapeared, as well as the Weave and Shadow weave. There is now no deity of arcane magic. Kelemvor may or may not hold the portfolio, he will not say, but if he does he does not use its influence at all. All Chosen of Mystra lost thier powers and got a few permanent negative levels into the bargain. Everyone who used to worship Mystra is really rather embarised about the whole thing. -If the Time of Troubles never occurred, then Kelemvor wouldn't be a deity. Myrkul would still be the god of the dead.
Old Sage 11-23-06, 01:54 AM	There are some unexplained problems that I can see with Azezel's changes... 1) Unless otherwise stated, the only cannon is the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting & The Player's Guide to Faerun. All other books/novels/fanfics/realmslore is inadmissable. Also, it is ten years after the Year of Wild Magic - those years have been fairly calm and uneventful, on a global scale.Why are the previous 15+ years of Realmslore, before the release of the FRCS, "inadmissible" in your campaign? This is confusing especially since significant portions of previously published lore connect with what's included in the FRCS and PGtF and are therefore portions necessary for supporting some of your other changes. 2) The Time of Troubles never happened and the current pantheon is retconned. Unless otherwise stated, all deities are and always have been as they are presented in the FRCS.Then how do you explain the rise of Kelemvor, the death of Myrkul, and the changing of Mystra and all the other associated ToT changes that occured to the Realms pantheons and cosmology? Additionally, if the ToT never happened in your campaign and you're using the deities detailed in the FRCS, then how do you explain the presence of deities whose rise was marked by the ToT? 2) Mystra is dead, Kelemvor killed her. Magic functions normally, but All Dead Magic/Wild Magic zones disapeared, as well as the Weave and Shadow weave. There is now no deity of arcane magic. Kelemvor may or may not hold the portfolio, he will not say, but if he does he does not use its influence at all. All Chosen of Mystra lost thier powers and got a few permanent negative levels into the bargain.How does magic function normally if Mystra has been destroyed? If you destroy Mystra you've destroyed the Weave itself. It's likely that Realmspace/Toril/Faerûn would not necessarily be destroyed, nor that magic would "go away" should Mystra be destroyed, though it probably would mean a lot of widespread magical chaos, and magic that thereafter "worked differently."
miscellany 11-23-06, 02:48 AM	Why is it necessary to nitpick poor Azezel? Who cares if he doesn't follow a strict timeline? Who cares if he subs out one god for another and uses it that way without explanation based on the deity list in the FRCS? I doubt most players would. I know I wouldn't, specially since my character would have no good reason to want to know such things and can't really be expected to know them anyway. Azezel I say your structure looks fine. I hope you have fun and frankly don't worry about the nitpikor stuff unless you think it will get in the way of you and your buds having a good time. OK so now Rasputin is buying Tower Records furniture....will the blood sucking never cease?!
Azezel 11-23-06, 05:02 AM	There are some unexplained problems that I can see with Azezel's changes... Why are the previous 15+ years of Realmslore, before the release of the FRCS, "inadmissible" in your campaign? This is confusing especially since significant portions of previously published lore connect with what's included in the FRCS and PGtF and are therefore portions necessary for supporting some of your other changes. Because I've got better things to do than read 15+ years of realmslore. (and so, I suspect, do you) Then how do you explain the rise of Kelemvor, the death of Myrkul, and the changing of Mystra and all the other associated ToT changes that occured to the Realms pantheons and cosmology? Additionally, if the ToT never happened in your campaign and you're using the deities detailed in the FRCS, then how do you explain the presence of deities whose rise was marked by the ToT? I very simply retconned the deiteis as presented in the 3.0 FRCS - that is the way the gods are and have been since the begining of time. No ascensions, no deaths, no changes in portfolio. The gods are immutable. Myrkul never existed, Kelemvor has been doing what he's doing since the universe was created. Except for Mystra, who was killed ten years ago, because a god more powerful than Ao (me) god fed up with her. How does magic function normally if Mystra has been destroyed? If you destroy Mystra you've destroyed the Weave itself. It's likely that Realmspace/Toril/Faerûn would not necessarily be destroyed, nor that magic would "go away" should Mystra be destroyed, though it probably would mean a lot of widespread magical chaos, and magic that thereafter "worked differently." DM fiat. In in-game terms, the most popular theory is that the Weave was Mystra's way of controlling and limiting Arcane Magic to make herself seem more powerful than she really should have been.
MerrikCale 11-23-06, 08:47 AM	Oh most definitely. I built a whole campaign particularly about the one in the Sword Coast. In fact, she was based on a PC from a campaign that had been run a few years before with evil characters. She was a priestess of Shar who went on to become the first "Chosen of Shar" after almost singlehandedly destroying a Selunite mountain monastery. She then recruited the other two and sent them on missions to spread the use of the Shadow Weave, while she herself remained in the Sword Coast. She built a major fortress that I based off of Ironfang Keep in the FR book, in a natural dead magic zone in a forest, on a river waterfall, just like Ironfang Keep. The dead magic, combined with the adult shadow dragon she kept in the keep that she had trained in the Shadow Weave, made for quite the challenging final encounter of the campaign. Thats great stuff. The selunite monks, were they sun souls or did you devise a new order?
Red_Wizard 11-23-06, 09:27 AM	Because I've got better things to do than read 15+ years of realmslore. (and so, I suspect, do you). I don't:P
wesleytj 11-23-06, 11:43 AM	Thats great stuff. The selunite monks, were they sun souls or did you devise a new order? Thanks so much...it's always nice when your campaign ideas are well recieved. :) Of course it's also nice that the players themselves all said they had a great time as well. Yes, it was new order...I called them the Order of Selune's Tears.
Panurg 11-23-06, 12:09 PM	Only a short version: Assuming Darkhold is an old Sarrukh Fortress with gates to three of the mightiest kingdoms of Sarrukh the Zentarim Mage Nathlar of Ireabor conquered it with the help of a southern cell of the black network in oppostion to Cyric. The Pereghost was slain in the battle, and so was the high priest of Cyric. Dag Zoreth and Malchior of Darkhold weren't harmed because of their absence. The new Lord of Darkhold Nathlar began to uncover the secrets of the old fortress and made a severe mistake. Sarrukh in all of the Realms began to observe his doings and they sent they began to manipulating the Yuan-Ti mystics of the Naga Kingdom Najara, which in fact govern the realm of Nagas to march on the fortress. With the help of the Banelar Nagas of Darkhold the Najaran army gained acces but didn't drive out the Zents, instead they began manipulating the Zent Lord and brainwashing him into a puppet. Using him and the Zhentish slavers to start trade with the south and undermining the position of the human kingdoms of the western heartlands. For now the secene starts to unfold. It's an experiment I'm eager to see whats happening next. My players will have a big part in the decision. :D
Lord Karsus 11-23-06, 12:47 PM	I don't:P -I don't either. ;)
BrennonGoldeye 11-23-06, 01:11 PM	I know I should keep quite, but I can't. Ya'll know me!:D Because I've got better things to do than read 15+ years of realmslore. (and so, I suspect, do you) Actually he already has, long ago. Hence the Old Sage. That's why the questions made sense. You must admit saying that the event that made Kel more than some has-been were-trash never happened but he is God of the Dead is kinda making WoTC's retcons seem conservative. It is a thread made for whacky and totally unique answers though. Continuity is only needed when someone cares to remember the past. Good gaming Azezel.:cool:
miscellany 11-23-06, 02:29 PM	Assuming Darkhold is an old Sarrukh Fortress with gates to three of the mightiest kingdoms of Sarrukh the Zentarim Mage Nathlar of Ireabor conquered it with the help of a southern cell of the black network in oppostion to Cyric. Ooh this is good stuff. I would like to play in a game like this where my character would work for the Zhentarim but slowly come to realize another secret layer of bosses really controls things. It would be cool to start play in teh Heartlands an all of a sudden go through the wrong gate and end up in Chult facing all sorts of nasty yuan ti monsters. They say there will be a man canon in Halo3.
Krash 11-23-06, 06:02 PM	I've fleshed out Impiltur and given it history and continuity with its neighbours and past events. A few other things as well. -- George Krashos
Karsus the Mad 11-23-06, 06:14 PM	I don't:P -I don't either. ;) Oddly, I do. Things like working, eating, paying rent...that sort of thing:P I know, I know, such limited time to waste on things like life:P Actually he already has, long ago. Hence the Old Sage. That's why the questions made sense. You must admit saying that the event that made Kel more than some has-been were-trash never happened but he is God of the Dead is kinda making WoTC's retcons seem conservative. It is a thread made for whacky and totally unique answers though. Continuity is only needed when someone cares to remember the past. Good gaming Azezel. Ditto, ditto, and doubly ditto. I refer those who actually have bothered questioning others descisions in regards to published canon to the very first post, specifically this This isn't a thread to discuss the validity of things according to published material, It reminds me of threads in which the first words are "Don't tell me it isn't possible by canon because I've already decided to go against it" and yet people still post saying it isn't possible...and then get all offended when people reply back with "so what?" :P Tho', I must admit, it stirs my curiousity:D
Old Sage 11-23-06, 08:00 PM	Ditto, ditto, and doubly ditto. I refer those who actually have bothered questioning others descisions in regards to published canon to the very first post, specifically this It reminds me of threads in which the first words are "Don't tell me it isn't possible by canon because I've already decided to go against it" and yet people still post saying it isn't possible...and then get all offended when people reply back with "so what?" :P Tho', I must admit, it stirs my curiousity:DJust to be clear.... I had no intention of suggesting that Azezel's FR changes were impossible or irrelevant. I was merely seeking an explanation for the changes within the context of Azezel's FR. Given what the canon has stated, I was somewhat confused on how Azezel could explain the changes given the denial of previous Realmslore.
Karsus the Mad 11-23-06, 08:52 PM	As was I, thus I snuck in there "Tho', I must admit, it stirs my curiousity:D" Of course the answer could be "because I said so", but ehhhhhhh....if ya know what I mean:)
GothicDan 11-23-06, 10:30 PM	I am always immensely amused by people who are personally offended when others question their opinions or decisions. It reminds me of tiny children who say things and then throw their hands over their ears and go "LA LA LA LA!" when someone's trying to talk to them about what they said. Not necessarily saying that describes the actions of anyone here, but it reminded me of this. After all, this is a public forum. That means that anyone's free to say whatever they want, as lon gas it falls within the user's guidelines. That includes expressing one's opinions about others' opinions! And if someone questions me on my opinion about pretty much anything, I'm usually more than happy to discuss it! Oh, and: Because I've got better things to do than read 15+ years of realmslore. (and so, I suspect, do you). Most people would say that we all probably have better things to do than play any RPGs at all. ;) Me? I've got the universe to unravel. Mwahahaha....
Old Sage 11-23-06, 10:52 PM	A very mature attitude, GD. I applaud your comments. ;)
GothicDan 11-23-06, 11:25 PM	Thank you. *bows* ;)
Gellion 11-24-06, 03:25 AM	Hmmmm, if I were to run a Relams game... Larloch has been bumped off, and the one who killed him is impersonating him. Unbeknownst to even his servant liches and the gods themselves. This entity would end up being a major villain for the PCs down the line. The afterlife has been changed so that those who do not worship a deity go to the plane that matches their alignment, and they do not have to merge with the plane if they do not want to. ...That is about it.:)
Panurg 11-24-06, 04:56 AM	[QUOTE=miscellany;10719307]Ooh this is good stuff. I would like to play in a game like this where my character would work for the Zhentarim but slowly come to realize another secret layer of bosses really controls things. I'm absolutely fascinated with the layers of power that structure the FR setting, you can expand it in every direction, and knowing that it's about phantasy you can also stretch some of the canon boundaries to some extend. Sarrukh are an elder evil of the sort I would nowadays describe as subtle and moving behind the scenes, more than many other organizations and power structures in Faerun.
Azezel 11-24-06, 05:08 AM	Just to be clear.... I had no intention of suggesting that Azezel's FR changes were impossible or irrelevant. I was merely seeking an explanation for the changes within the context of Azezel's FR. Given what the canon has stated, I was somewhat confused on how Azezel could explain the changes given the denial of previous Realmslore. To put it in the simplest way, when you sit at my table canon is entirely and exclusively two beige books called the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting (3.0) and the Player's Guide to Faerun (3.5). Except for the bits I don't like. So far as the game is concerned - what these books describe as being the pantheon in the Year of Wild Magic has always been the pantheon. No ascensions or deaths or portfolio swapping. Within the context of my own FR, nothing has changed. (Except Kelemvor, who has always been God of Death and never been anything else, killed Mystra.)
Asche 11-24-06, 05:33 AM	I have been running several FR campaigns in the last 6 years, and changed the following things to make it, in mine and my players opinion, a place more suitable to role-playing, as opposed to roll-playing and metagame discussions (why doesnt elminster do this?) - there may exist people like elminster, drizzt etc., but they are hearsay, or simply never show up. Basically, there arent any all-powerful demi-godlike NPCs taking an active interest in happenings. Actually, Elminster in my campaign was never anything other than an old adventurous wizard well past his best years, sitting in his tower bemusing the state of the world, barely able to climb the stairs. - the Helmite church got an Inquisition, and actually a very fierce one to boot. This started out as a story hook, but proved to fit perfectly with the "as long as its lawful, we take it in" attitude of the Helmite church. - firearms in the form of muskets, flintlock pistols and thayan bombards exist, however their ammunition and also numbers are very limited to a few select nations (thay, lantan, the gold dwarves and a few pirates along the western coasts), making them more of a novelty item. It did, however, allow for a nice deviation from standard FR fare by playing a Lantan-based adventure with lots of constructs, firearms, clockwork golems and Nimblewraiths. Somewhat Eberronish, maybe. - the gods dont take much interest in anything but the behaviour of their clergy, and even then, tend to miss a lot of detail. Basically, they are the classic manager type, as long as it more or less runs in the right direction, they arent aware of a single cleric working for the other side. I believe the Realms to be a place more suitable to meaningful playing with these changes, because the existance of high-powered NPCs and gods intervention really devalues the deeds of your party, and THAT is what roleplaying is about.
Azezel 11-24-06, 02:44 PM	Helmite inquisition you say... Request permission to yoink?
miscellany 11-24-06, 05:01 PM	I'm absolutely fascinated with the layers of power that structure the FR setting, you can expand it in every direction, and knowing that it's about phantasy you can also stretch some of the canon boundaries to some extend. Me to I like DMs who are smart and don't let player stereotypes or assumptions about how things supposedly are as far as who controls what in the Forgotten Realms get in the way of his or her game. Twisting and bending of the canon and unique plots are great ways to turn player assumptions on their heads and keep players thinking about the DM’s Realms and their char’s place in it. the Helmite church got an Inquisition, and actually a very fierce one to boot. This started out as a story hook, but proved to fit perfectly with the "as long as its lawful, we take it in" attitude of the Helmite church. ...the inquisition, what a show! The inquisition, here we go! Sorry, couldn’t help it.;) I like this idea! Having a clergy that takes things to the extreme is cool and adds flavor. Did your inquisition end up toppling monarchs or cause city states to be taken over in Helm’s name? I’d like to hear more if you want to share. To put it in the simplest way, when you sit at my table canon is entirely and exclusively two beige books called the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting (3.0) and the Player's Guide to Faerun (3.5). Except for the bits I don't like. You tell em brother! :D Albert Einstein: "Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities." Not saying this applies to anyone here, it just reminded me of this. After all, this is a public forum. This means it behooves us even more than usual to not let simplistic forum guidelines act as a substitute for good judgment and simple politeness. It’s easy to blurt out an opinion questioning someone else’s opinion. It takes real smarts to step back, look at the big picture <like the function of the thread/what the OP is after> and use this as a guide when posting. One derails threads and one keeps things chugging along. Come on, ride the train, hey, ride it, woo woo! --Quad City DJs
Lord Karsus 11-24-06, 05:08 PM	To put it in the simplest way, when you sit at my table canon is entirely and exclusively two beige books called the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting (3.0) and the Player's Guide to Faerun (3.5). Except for the bits I don't like. -The FRCS is more of a gray, I would say...Same thing with the PGtF. :P
Old Sage 11-24-06, 08:35 PM	You tell em brother! :DAnd how exactly is he "telling me?" Hmmm? After all, this is a public forum. This means it behooves us even more than usual to not let simplistic forum guidelines act as a substitute for good judgment and simple politeness.Yes, it's a public forum -- where any and all relevant questions pertaining to the posted details can be asked. My earlier questions and points were relevant, as a means of seeking more information. It’s easy to blurt out an opinion questioning someone else’s opinion. It takes real smarts to step back, look at the big picture <like the function of the thread/what the OP is after> and use this as a guide when posting. One derails threads and one keeps things chugging along.Apparently, you failed to acknowledge what I said earlier. I was just curious about how the poster intended to explain the changes within his/her own campaign given his/her choice to ignore previously established Realmslore. I can accept that some DMs may simply wave their had and say "Because that's the way I want MY Realms." And that's fair enough. However, I enjoy reading detailed explanations about the changes DMs make to their Realms... especially when they consider previously Realmslore or find new ways to interpret existing Realms. Often, I do find the "Because that's the way I want MY Realms" explanations rather bland and uninspiring. In many ways, such an explanation seems to show that the DM has apparently chosen to ignore the potential offered by reinterpreting established Realmsore and how it can be used to create new and interesting directions for one's home FR campaign. To put it simply... I just like to know why.
GothicDan 11-24-06, 08:39 PM	After all, this is a public forum. This means it behooves us even more than usual to not let simplistic forum guidelines act as a substitute for good judgment and simple politeness. It’s easy to blurt out an opinion questioning someone else’s opinion. It takes real smarts to step back, look at the big picture <like the function of the thread/what the OP is after> and use this as a guide when posting. "Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities." ;) You're not allowed to quote The Master without me replying. <3 for Einstein. He was Our Lord. Also: "The unexamined life is not worth living for man." (Socrates) "At times one remains faithful to a cause only because its opponents do not cease to be insipid." (Nietzsche) From my list of personal favorite quotes. In other words: fear of social stigma to the point of paralysis of information exchange is not something I consider to be a particularly productive emotion.
Lord Karsus 11-24-06, 10:16 PM	You're not allowed to quote The Master without me replying. <3 for Einstein. He was Our Lord. -Off-topic, I know, but...Wasn't Einstein widely discredited and "disowned" by the physics community in general as he neared the end of his life, and refused to accept the realities of quantum physics and other "state of the art" scientists?
miscellany 11-25-06, 04:08 AM	The Fountain has me all kinds of confused. ..zzzzz...try again tomorrow.
BrianCritchley 11-25-06, 02:20 PM	one thing I've more or less done in my game is to ignore the shadow weave. If I wanna play a game with light side/dark side I'll play the star wars RPG
Ripe 11-25-06, 04:09 PM	One thing I allways got rid off is Shadow Weave. And everything to do with Shades. Like Brian said, if I want to deal with Light side vs. Dark side of something I'll play Star Wars RPG.
Ripe 11-25-06, 04:14 PM	Because I've got better things to do than read 15+ years of realmslore. (and so, I suspect, do you) Actually, I allready did. Over the last 15+ years. And I suspect many people on this boards did the same. Then again, like GD allready said and I'll quote for truth: "Most people would say that we all probably have better things to do than play any RPGs at all."
Karsus the Mad 11-25-06, 05:17 PM	To put it simply... I just like to know why. Bingo, bingo, badabingo:P We simply have different posting styles to reiterate the same ideals:P Good quality that, simply desiring to know "why". Excellent. It's the best, and most simplist, question ever devised;) Yet seems to be the most controversial and difficult one to answer:(
miscellany 11-25-06, 05:30 PM	And how exactly is he "telling me?" Hmmm? By patiently restating the stuff you chose to ignore. I can accept that some DMs may simply wave their had and say "Because that's the way I want MY Realms." And that's fair enough. If you can accept hand waving, then why pester Azezel with probing questions after he as much said “I handwaved this right out of my game”? This thread practically screams ‘hand waving going on here!’ I doubt you could miss that. Often, I do find the "Because that's the way I want MY Realms" explanations rather bland and uninspiring. In many ways, such an explanation seems to show that the DM has apparently chosen to ignore the potential offered by reinterpreting established Realmsore and how it can be used to create new and interesting directions for one's home FR campaign. I think I speak for all the peasant DMs here when I say we most humbly apologise for offending the Great Sage’s sophisticate anti-bourgeois Dungeon Mastering standards. Thank the pantheon we have you to remind us how much more important it is for us to live up to your minimum required standards whenever we modify canon as opposed to our own wants as Realms Dungeon Masters. To put it simply... I just like to know why. Don’t forget the part about liking to assign the work of all Realms DMs who can’t present you with book length reasoning for their changes to the bland and uninspiring category. Maybe I just need to get to know you better Old Sage, but your questions just come off totally disingenuous to me. Anyway I hope you’re happy with the answers you got despite the thread flack they generated. meh
Faraer 11-25-06, 06:14 PM	He isn't being disingenuous, and your sarcasm isn't warranted.
Red_Wizard 11-25-06, 06:38 PM	Agreed.... Though i do agree on one point you made miscellany "Maybe I just need to get to know you better Old Sage"....Maybe if you knew better, you would see his asking for what it was, curiosity. I myself am always curious to hear the reasoning behind changes to the Realms....I don't think less of anyone changing them, i just wanna see if there is a legitimate reason behind it, or if it is a time saving "cop out"...
Lord Karsus 11-25-06, 07:32 PM	-I like Sage and everything, but miscellany, that was pretty awesome. :D
Gellion 11-25-06, 08:14 PM	-I like Sage and everything, but miscellany, that was pretty awesome. :D Agreed. *High Fives miscellany*:)
Lord Karsus 11-25-06, 08:22 PM	NOTE: -I am not condoning such behavior- Sage is as respected as he is because of the troves of lore he has filed within that brain of his. Noobs, and others who do not regularly post on the boards do need to be put in their places. -I just found miscellany's posts a little refreshing, that's all.
Gellion 11-25-06, 09:52 PM	NOTE: -I am not condoning such behavior- Sage is as respected as he is because of the troves of lore he has filed within that brain of his. Noobs, and others who do not regularly post on the boards do need to be put in their places. -I just found miscellany's posts a little refreshing, that's all. True, I love Old Sage too. I just like what miscellany said, that is all.:) *Hugs Old Sage* :)
BrennonGoldeye 11-25-06, 10:28 PM	I have always been a fan of sarcasm. It proves points that plainspeak cannot. I could feel miscellany's hackel rise when I was reading her(sex inferred by the avatar) response. I also really wanted to know if there was any backstory besides "because it's a pain in the rump" to the changes Azezel made. I tried almost exactly what Azezel did, 15 years ago. Through experience I have learned that players are more entertained(the entire point of this whole screwy game) by being able to see the connections, both foward and backward, their PC's have with the wider world. I don't deign to speak for Sage, or anyone else for that matter, when I say that his questions seemed to be simply to expand the entertainment. Asking for an explanation is only offensive to those who have none. I would still like to know why Netheril fell in Azezel's world, as Mystryl never died. It's an easy thing to answer(Karsus;) peeved Her off?), and just the kind of thing Sage was looking for. Give and take ffolks, give and take.:D SWLL-:cip:
MerrikCale 11-25-06, 10:32 PM	Like Brian said, if I want to deal with Light side vs. Dark side of something I'll play Star Wars RPG. Star Wars didn't exactly invent that. Its been a staple of heroic fiction since it began
miscellany 11-25-06, 10:49 PM	I hope the Old Sage does not go away or anything because he answers questions I didn’t even know had answers to them so I just want to say I only wanted to make sure that my buds can come here and talk about their Realms games without having to be subject to a battery of questions that don’t seem like they invite discussion but instead are like interrogation at the witness stand stuff. I don’t think it’s a copout to not get detailed on supporting logic for changes a DM makes because DMs don’t always have time for that stuff. At minimum flesh it out only as much as you need to keep play and players happy I say but also don’t give it all away because you can save bits for players to figure out in character during adventures and quests. And yeah a strawmanned Sage’s point about his view on handwaving a little bit so I have to admit that I guess. So I’m pretty sure I’m going to be sent to sit in the corner for this so I’m just going to go sit their now and not wait for orders. If I had to take orders from anyone it would be Captain Merrill Stubing (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gavin_MacLeod) from The Love Boat (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Love_Boat). Aye sir sitting in the corner now sir! <Goes sits in corner waits for WizO to met out punishment or at least doff my cap and put a dunce hat on instead> :(
Lord Karsus 11-25-06, 10:54 PM	<Goes sits in corner waits for WizO to met out punishment or at least doff my cap and put a dunce hat on instead> :( -I don't actually think the WizOs for the FR boards are real. Ever since BigSis left, WizOs have pretty much become "fictional entities" around here...
Dark Wizard 11-26-06, 12:21 AM	They're like dispassionate overgods who look down from their empyrean heights with mildly bemused expressions at anything we do, good or bad ... ... naw. I think WizO Paradox is pulling double duty or something, so his presence isn't constant. I think we do have more WizO interaction/interdiction than we had in a long time. And Miscellany, don't worry about it. Old Sage is a very nice guy and one of the most useful people here on these boards and many other related forums. No one is able to grasp the interaction dynamics of a community in so short a time, it took me a while to figure out who was who, who likes which aspect of the setting, etc. I think we should also remind ourselves that newcomers and casual visitors to these boards don't always know the long established mindset and procedures many regulars on these boards operate under, which may rub some people the wrong way especially when we're not familiar with each other's playing style yet.
Red_Wizard 11-26-06, 10:46 AM	psssh, just come in wands balzing, i'm sure it'll all work out :P Just watch of for Karsus...And Karsus, and Kar......oh nine hells, maybe wands blazing was a bad idea ;)
GothicDan 11-26-06, 02:45 PM	I don’t think it’s a copout to not get detailed on supporting logic for changes a DM makes because DMs don’t always have time for that stuff. And some people do think that it is. Is it wrong for others to express their opinions if they differ from yours? If I don't have the time or energy to run a game as I see fit, then I just don't run the game. After all, I have way too much work to do to worry about squeezing in time doing things when I really don't have it to spend... But, back to the main point: this is a message board. As long as we're all being civil (which, if anything, you're incredibly sarcastic and disrespectful post towards Old Sage may not have been), we can ask whatever questions we want. If the OP does not want to answer them in depth, all he has to do is say so. He did say this, I believe, and note that Old Sage did not in any way interrogate him, insult him, or respond caustically. He merely explained WHY he was asking such questions in the first place. Ayn Rand also sucks. ;)
Lord Karsus 11-26-06, 06:57 PM	psssh, just come in wands balzing, i'm sure it'll all work out :P Just watch of for Karsus...And Karsus, and Kar......oh nine hells, maybe wands blazing was a bad idea ;) -Don't listen to Red Wiz...He is a Red Wizard, for goodness sake, we they are certainly not trustworthy individuals! ;) -Karsus is your friend- all 2/3's of him...:cool:
Karsus the Mad 11-26-06, 07:42 PM	Karsus is your friend....Karsus is your guide....Karsus is your salvation...Karsus will protect you....Karsus will deliver upon you the great joys of magic...Karsus will take all your steaks...Karsus will absorb your coffee...Karsus wants your steak sauce...Karsus will drink your budweiser, Karsus will sit on your porch swing giggling...Karsus will..will...will...barbeque chicken legs and kebab...oh yes...hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm All are invited to the Karsus Grill Out Party...oh yessssssssss..
Azezel 11-26-06, 07:57 PM	I have always been a fan of sarcasm. It proves points that plainspeak cannot. I could feel miscellany's hackel rise when I was reading her(sex inferred by the avatar) response. I also really wanted to know if there was any backstory besides "because it's a pain in the rump" to the changes Azezel made. I tried almost exactly what Azezel did, 15 years ago. Through experience I have learned that players are more entertained(the entire point of this whole screwy game) by being able to see the connections, both foward and backward, their PC's have with the wider world. I don't deign to speak for Sage, or anyone else for that matter, when I say that his questions seemed to be simply to expand the entertainment. Asking for an explanation is only offensive to those who have none. I would still like to know why Netheril fell in Azezel's world, as Mystryl never died. It's an easy thing to answer(Karsus;) peeved Her off?), and just the kind of thing Sage was looking for. Give and take ffolks, give and take.:D SWLL-:cip: I like you BrennonGoldeye. Okay - Netheril: First in my Relams, there never was a Mystryl - Mystra as described in the 3.0 FRCS has always been Goddess of Magic - since the creation of all things. When Karsus cast his spell, he tried to wrest control of the Weave from Mystra. In my Relams Ao has a strict rule, no ascensions, no deaths, no portfolio shifting - gods are eternal and permanent. Karsus was destroyed, and the laws of magic re-written to prevent any simlar attempt in the future - these things excepted, Karsus Folly plays out more or less as it does in vanilla FR. Long story short: I find the playing experience more enjoyable when the players are able to see the connections, both foward and backward, their PC's have with the wider world, and I don't think I have limited that. I certainly have not considered every ramification on the whole of Realms history - but when a player wants to know X (About netheril for instance) I will do my level best to fit all the disperate peices together.
BrennonGoldeye 11-26-06, 08:15 PM	-Karsus is your friend- all 2/3's of him... I could have sworn I saw a third Karsus this morning on the boards, and boy is she a hottie! :love:
Lord Karsus 11-26-06, 08:20 PM	I could have sworn I saw a third Karsus this morning on the boards, and boy is she a hottie! :love: :uh-huh: -I thought 'she' was a 'he'...No comment...
Karsus the Mad 11-26-06, 08:36 PM	Interesting swinging there BG....considering the Third Karsus is another members brother...ahem...ahem...:eek:
Lord Karsus 11-26-06, 08:42 PM	Interesting swinging there BG....considering the Third Karsus is another members brother...ahem...ahem...:eek: -You're getting your clones mixed up again. Karsus-of-Carnage is JaiaDrottsingr's relative, somehow. Presumably brother, I guess. That Clone who claimed to be all 3/3 parts...I don't know about that one. And, The-Third-Karsus never said anything either, I don't think.
Red_Wizard 11-27-06, 12:32 AM	Correct to both....though is there ANOTHER newer one???
Karsus the Mad 11-27-06, 12:34 AM	-You're getting your clones mixed up again. Karsus-of-Carnage is JaiaDrottsingr's relative, somehow. Presumably brother, I guess. That Clone who claimed to be all 3/3 parts...I don't know about that one. And, The-Third-Karsus never said anything either, I don't think. Oh yeah. KoC is the brother, not TTK. Well, you can't really blame ourself, with so many running around:P It's kinda difficult to get it all straight:) Correct to both....though is there ANOTHER newer one??? Yep. Hmmm...if memory serves, there's Karsus of Carnage, nice chap. There's The Third Karsus, isn't around much, but nice and there's DemonGodKarsus...trying to say LK and I are the clones:shifty: Then there's a bunch of registered users that I've never seen post with Karsus in their username.
Red_Wizard 11-27-06, 11:09 AM	huh, i've only intereacted with the two of you, and then the other two one day poster ones from one other thread..
MaskedOne 11-27-06, 06:43 PM	Karsus is your friend....Karsus is your guide....Karsus is your salvation...Karsus will protect you....Karsus will deliver upon you the great joys of magic...Karsus will take all your steaks...Karsus will absorb your coffee...Karsus wants your steak sauce...Karsus will drink your budweiser, Karsus will sit on your porch swing giggling...Karsus will..will...will...barbeque chicken legs and kebab...oh yes...hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm All are invited to the Karsus Grill Out Party...oh yessssssssss.. Karsus needs a new PR rep because that doesn't work as a coercion, magical (or psionic) suggestion, or good advertisement. Out of curiosity, Red Wizard, why are you worried about him. I'm the one with standing battle plan of deflecting cataclysmic war magic first into Shade, then into Zhentil Keep and finally into select Thayan assets and drow fortresses. The Karsi just intend to intend to reforge into a new divinity and maybe run for political offices that they aren't eligible to have. Well, normally, they do have other schemes that pop up occasionally but generally they're downright pleasant about most of them at least compared to some notable Zhulkirs I've met.
Lord Karsus 11-27-06, 06:44 PM	huh, i've only intereacted with the two of you, and then the other two one day poster ones from one other thread.. -We're the original Karsus'. I've been here since '03, and KtM's been here since '04. All of the others have, for the most part, sprung up fairly recently, and have like, less than 50posts. Oh yeah. KoC is the brother, not TTK. Well, you can't really blame ourself, with so many running around:P It's kinda difficult to get it all straight:) Yep. Hmmm...if memory serves, there's Karsus of Carnage, nice chap. There's The Third Karsus, isn't around much, but nice and there's DemonGodKarsus...trying to say LK and I are the clones:shifty: Then there's a bunch of registered users that I've never seen post with Karsus in their username. -If the search function actually was a reality, we need to go a clone huntin'. I told you that we shouldn't of made so many. But, nooo, no one ever listens to me...:P
MaskedOne 11-27-06, 06:47 PM	I told you that we shouldn't of made so many. But, nooo, no one ever listens to me...:P On that, we agree completely, Oh Great Momentary One.
Lord Karsus 11-27-06, 07:03 PM	On that, we agree completely, Oh Great Momentary One. -It's good to agree! Karsus needs a new PR rep because that doesn't work as a coercion, magical (or psionic) suggestion, or good advertisement. -KtM thought of that one. He might have been mildly drunk- I can't vouch for him 100%. :) Out of curiosity, Red Wizard, why are you worried about him. I'm the one with standing battle plan of deflecting cataclysmic war magic first into Shade, then into Zhentil Keep and finally into select Thayan assets and drow fortresses. The Karsi just intend to intend to reforge into a new divinity and maybe run for political offices that they aren't eligible to have. Well, normally, they do have other schemes that pop up occasionally but generally they're downright pleasant about most of them at least compared to some notable Zhulkirs I've met. -Hopefully, it'll never come to annihilating the City of Shade, Zhentil Keep, Thay and/or the Underdark. We're still planning for run for political office, though.
MaskedOne 11-27-06, 07:11 PM	-Hopefully, it'll never come to annihilating the City of Shade, Zhentil Keep, Thay and/or the Underdark. Good to know, Mystra's tolerance for my standing battle plan is somewhat finite last I checked. While against the rest of the planet this is rarely a problem because of other abilities at my disposal, defending against the Karsi while on Toril and having any chance of success requires that Mystra at the very least be neutral in the affair and preferably supportive.
Lord Karsus 11-27-06, 07:14 PM	-You know, Mystra should be a little grateful. I mean, if it weren't for us, she would have never gained any kind of divinity. She'd still be a disabled young woman, or in the case of Midnight, a mudane woman named Ariel.
Red_Wizard 11-27-06, 08:32 PM	Come now, i can be on everyones side....so long as i get Zulkir of evocation....and all other Zulkir offices removed :schemes: Sides, i've been around since 03, maybe early 04....just not in this incarnation ;)
Gellion 11-27-06, 09:48 PM	I have been here since 03 too! Man, it sucks that all the cool people that I used to talk to a lot here have dissappeared. Anyhow, another way I would change the Realms is to have Divine Magic be independent from the Weave. So, Divine Casters magic is not filtered through the weave, and instead comes directly from their deity.:)
Krash 11-27-06, 11:25 PM	I pre-date you all!:king: Yet to find anyone with a join date earlier than mine.:dragon: -- George Krashos
Karsus the Mad 11-28-06, 12:01 AM	I pre-date you all!:king: Yet to find anyone with a join date earlier than mine.:dragon: -- George Krashos Show off:fett: (first time I've ever used that smiley, just for you!:smirk: ) Karsus needs a new PR rep because that doesn't work as a coercion, magical (or psionic) suggestion, or good advertisement. I dunno, I've gotten one chap to join our cult, so I guess I'm doing good in the PR department. I dunno, maybe he pittied us. But if it works, does it matter?:D My plan to gather enough Torillian followers to give ferver and power to our divine spark...which is currently parked in the astral, gathering up a rather hefty parking fine I might add. -If the search function actually was a reality, we need to go a clone huntin'. I told you that we shouldn't of made so many. But, nooo, no one ever listens to me... Ah, ah, ah. At the time it wasn't "us", so don't go blaming me. Karsus wanted a lot of spare clones so he made a bunch of spare clones. Some kind of fetish I suppose, but it wasn't "us" at the time, even tho' K still spoke in third person. -KtM thought of that one. He might have been mildly drunk- I can't vouch for him 100%. Nah. I wish I was mildly drunk like usual, or even plastered like some occasions:pint: at the good ol' pub 57, but I wasn't:weep: I was however sleep deprived:zzz: Does that count? All the cooking I do:nonono: Come now, i can be on everyones side....so long as i get Zulkir of evocation....and all other Zulkir offices removed Hmmm....granted...but only if ye join the cult:whatsthis
Bonzai 11-28-06, 07:45 PM	Lets see...How have I changed the realms. Well, first off I introduced a few things to intigrate new material into the realms. There is a monastic order of denier that is dedicated to learning the language of the meta text (True Namers). A cult of Myrkul has long been searching for alternate means of power. Not wanting to rely on Mystra who killed their lord, and not being able to draw divine aid, they have discovered a form of magic that bypasses the weave. It draws from Myrkuls former domain, souls (Incarnum). Other things that have happened... A Nar sorcerer has mastered the way of the Demon Binder, and has united the Nar tribes and proclaimed himself the Nentyarch. To solidify his claim, he led a demonic assault on Impilter, and reclaimed the crown of narfell. He has since reforged the crown, but now faces threats on three sides, and more than likley won't last long. Impiltur has declared war already, and Gareth Dragonsbane will more than likley will aid them. On the east, the Rashimi are also unhappy with the prospect of the return of Narfell. There is a new city west of Mythril Hall, near the spine of the world, called Red Rock. This city was pretty much built up by a Necromancer from the Cult of the Dragon. Through Magic and undead labor the town grew from a small mining camp to a thriving city. It is a small pocket of humanity, surrounded by the newly formed Kingdom of many arrows. The town thrives, and while the rule is harsh, it is strict. Silverymoon and Mythril hall aren't thrilled about this, but without the Necromancer, the people of the town would surely be overwhelmed by Orcs, and he keeps Oboulds attention. The Necromancer has some greater ambitions however. First he has established a powerful base for the Cult of the Dragon, where they can act openly. Second, with the year of the Rogue Dragons, he has been stockpiling Dragon corpses. Lastly, he has been hunting down the Phylacteries of fallen sacred ones and restoring them from his stock pile. He plans to use them to help him become the leader of the entire cult. If that happens, he will be turning his eyes on conquering Faerun. The night masks have been decimated to a shadow of their former might, as a certain vampire chose to mess with the wrong group of adventures. Myth Drannor has been reclaimed thanks to an adventuring group, and is now a mostly human city. There has been a lot of friction as the elves have tried to reclaim it for themselves. Unther is free from Muholand, as Hoar returned and assumed the throne as the new God King. Um...those are the biggest changes..
Sir_Wolfgar 11-28-06, 10:08 PM	I like the way you incorporated the new magic systems intothe Realms, they seem pretty logical for someone choosing to add them in.
Empirate 11-29-06, 09:01 AM	In my Faerûn, Fey play a larger role than usual. There was a plot by followers of Silvanus (including one Chosen) to destroy the Zhentarim, whose ruthless exploitation of nature's resources disturbed them. The Chosen posed as a Green Dragon (unique shapeshifting abilities) that claimed to have dominated the Fey responsible for guarding Crossroads and Backroads in northern Faerûn (actually, the Fey collaborated because Silvanus asked nicely). This "Green Dragon" approached the Zhentarim and offered to let their armies use the vast networks of Crossroads, in exchange for something or other. The plan was to scatter Zhent armies over all of Faerûn, then strike against Zhentil Keep. The PCs unfortunately stopped this plot (being misled and taking the fake alliance for an actual one) and killed the Chosen of Silvanus; they now have to find a replacement. Luckily, they were able to induce strife between the Cyricist and Banite parts of the Black Network. As a consequence of this, the Black Network is struggling to keep from falling apart entirely, and rumor has it Fzoul was deposed as Bane's Chosen because he had failed his god. The Zhentarim are very likely to be destroyed quite soon in my Faerûn. The demon prince Eltab is gaining massive influence in the East, and will probably carve out a realm north of Rashemen, east of Impiltur and the Vast quite soon. Allying himself with the Red Wizards, he is threatening to destroy Rashemen once and for all (which may well succeed in my campaign - the PCs are evil this time, with one of them being a Red Wizard...). There is no Underdark in the strict sense. The Drow have founded subterranean cities, and there are some Duergar mines and a few Illithid enclaves, but these are mostly not interconnected. Worship of the gods plays a large role in my campaign... which isn't actually a change, but seems to be contrary to what most DMs here are doing. No Monks for me, except in Kara-Tur. Western monks are actually Clerics, Adepts or Experts (sages etc.). Tilverton was not destroyed due to Weave/Shadow Weave interaction or something. It was simply razed the conventional way in a war between Cormyr and an Orc horde. I don't much care for Shades, Phaerimms, Sharn and whatnot. Shade may stay, but must limit it's activities to looking for a place to stay and poking around in Netherese ruins. It's an Anauroch thing. Don't go there and you don't have to worry about it. Like some others posted here, Epic characters don't show up in my game. They are the stuff of legends, not of actual play. I'm not even decided whether there really is or was an Elminster of Shadowdale - he's just a popular character in bard's tales. I aim at everything having a "heroic" feel. This means, for example, that people can usually roughly gauge the relative power of somebody they meet. They get a hunch that they're speaking to somebody "important in the big picture" when talking to a high-level character, and feel intimidated by it. This goes for the PCs, too. Humans are the dominant species - while this is canon, I never got the feeling that Humans could really decide their fate in the published sources. Stuff like Elven High Magic or Phaerimms or whatever always out-powered the modern, human realms. In my Faerûn, Humans dominate. I mean, really. There's not much Elven High Magic or the power of Shade or the Phaerimms or Drow or who-friggin'-ever can do against that. 90% or more of all the power available in the world is in the hands of living humans. As a DM, I want this world to be driven by people I can understand. I can't understand the way immortals think, nor the way Dragons or Phaerimms etc. think. In order for my plots to make sense, they have to revolve around human beings. Dwarves or Elves are, as a consequence of this, almost never seen in my campaign. Even as NPCs they rarely show up. The same goes for Halflings and Gnomes, Half-Elves (slightly more acceptable) and Half-Orcs (ditto). I like Tieflings and Aasimars, as well as Genasi, though. They're still human, but... strange. There are a lot more Sorcerers or Bards than Wizards in my Faerûn. The exception are the Red Wizards, schooled wizards who actually persecute spontaneous arcane casters. In-game this is because many people are born with the Talent, but never educated in using it. You have to be born Talented in order to be able to take up arcane spellcasting classes in my game. Out-of-game, this makes running spellcasting NPCs much easier for me... also, I like the flavor of Sorcerers. That they're underpowered doesn't mean you shouldn't use them! No Cult of the Dragon for me. Just too whacky. Wow! That was a lot of stuff.
Alediran 11-29-06, 12:21 PM	Empirate, something I can say about your changes is that the lack of demi-humans make your setting too dull and flat, you killed the best parts of Forgotten Realms, the mystical part of demi-humans that makes the setting interesting is gone, just because you can't understand them doesn't mean that you should get rid of them. I also see them TOO biased for humans. If any D&D player want's to play in a world where it's composed for the most part of humans, they better not play D&D, there are better RP games for that. As for my part, I direct the Realms as they are, the only things I change are those where lore is contradicted by different sources, usually taking the older version if is better, unless newer versions improve the setting or can be merged without inconsistencies. I'm even tinkering my prepared long-run campaing to adapt things that happen in novels, for example Chapter 4 will be related to The Last Mythal trilogy, the hook will be the Warblade, found by the players during their run in City of the Spider Queen (Chapter 2), wich will spark a visit to Alediran's home in Evermeet, for a long investigation about THAT sword (wich the players don't know what it is), something that will happen during Seiveril's call for help, where they will probablly join the efforts (or loose Alediran's help, because he will go, it's his best chance to see Myth Drannor if Seiveril's crusade ever goes to Cormanthyr)
Red_Wizard 11-29-06, 01:09 PM	Lets see...How have I changed the realms. Well, first off I introduced a few things to intigrate new material into the realms. There is a monastic order of denier that is dedicated to learning the language of the meta text (True Namers). A cult of Myrkul has long been searching for alternate means of power. Not wanting to rely on Mystra who killed their lord, and not being able to draw divine aid, they have discovered a form of magic that bypasses the weave. It draws from Myrkuls former domain, souls (Incarnum). Other things that have happened... A Nar sorcerer has mastered the way of the Demon Binder, and has united the Nar tribes and proclaimed himself the Nentyarch. To solidify his claim, he led a demonic assault on Impilter, and reclaimed the crown of narfell. He has since reforged the crown, but now faces threats on three sides, and more than likley won't last long. Impiltur has declared war already, and Gareth Dragonsbane will more than likley will aid them. On the east, the Rashimi are also unhappy with the prospect of the return of Narfell. There is a new city west of Mythril Hall, near the spine of the world, called Red Rock. This city was pretty much built up by a Necromancer from the Cult of the Dragon. Through Magic and undead labor the town grew from a small mining camp to a thriving city. It is a small pocket of humanity, surrounded by the newly formed Kingdom of many arrows. The town thrives, and while the rule is harsh, it is strict. Silverymoon and Mythril hall aren't thrilled about this, but without the Necromancer, the people of the town would surely be overwhelmed by Orcs, and he keeps Oboulds attention. The Necromancer has some greater ambitions however. First he has established a powerful base for the Cult of the Dragon, where they can act openly. Second, with the year of the Rogue Dragons, he has been stockpiling Dragon corpses. Lastly, he has been hunting down the Phylacteries of fallen sacred ones and restoring them from his stock pile. He plans to use them to help him become the leader of the entire cult. If that happens, he will be turning his eyes on conquering Faerun. The night masks have been decimated to a shadow of their former might, as a certain vampire chose to mess with the wrong group of adventures. Myth Drannor has been reclaimed thanks to an adventuring group, and is now a mostly human city. There has been a lot of friction as the elves have tried to reclaim it for themselves. Unther is free from Muholand, as Hoar returned and assumed the throne as the new God King. Um...those are the biggest changes.. Hmmmm, i like all of this....and for me, it hasn't changed the realms in any great way, its all minor things that could become bigger, but aren't beyond the set structure or possibility of Canon information. The only major things are the attack of Impiltur, and possibly the Necromancer, but the former could be something few know about, and the latter is so far out of the way that it could have been overlooked by all but those residing in the immidiate surround area....... Very interesting indeed ;)
Bonzai 11-29-06, 04:59 PM	Thanks. I try to work with the existing material material when possible, except for when new material contridicts what has already occured in game. As for the invasion of Impiltur, it was a distraction from the true goal, to regain the crown from the royal family. See the Sorcerer had enough strength to over power any of the other tribes, and declared himself the Nentyarch. However, he was plagued constantly by challenges and people questioning his right to rule. So he needed an absolute symbol of his authority. That had to be the Crown of Narfell. He tracked it down, and learned that it had been split into two parts, one was held by a powerful demon, and the other by the royal family of Impiltur. The Crown from the demon proved easy enough, but to get the crown from Impiltur took some doing. He summoned a small army of demons, and set them loose across the countryside. This spread out their forces, and left the capital less guarded for the suprise attack that followed. He managed to get the crown, severly injuring the ruler in the process. Since then, Impiltur has put down the demons in it's borders, and are preparing for a full out war against the Nar. If I were to continue with that campaign arc, Impiltur would go to war, and fair fair badly against the Nar and their demon reinforcements, until they were re-inforced By Gareth Dragon'sbane. Then they will begin to push back the Nar, and force the Sorcerer to open a huge gate, releasing a horde of demons against them. Some last minute aid from the witches of Rashamen would seal the gate, and the players get to defeat the sorcerer, shattering the fragile unity of the Nar tribes.
Red_Wizard 11-29-06, 05:16 PM	Thanks. I try to work with the existing material material when possible, except for when new material contridicts what has already occured in game. As for the invasion of Impiltur, it was a distraction from the true goal, to regain the crown from the royal family. See the Sorcerer had enough strength to over power any of the other tribes, and declared himself the Nentyarch. However, he was plagued constantly by challenges and people questioning his right to rule. So he needed an absolute symbol of his authority. That had to be the Crown of Narfell. He tracked it down, and learned that it had been split into two parts, one was held by a powerful demon, and the other by the royal family of Impiltur. The Crown from the demon proved easy enough, but to get the crown from Impiltur took some doing. He summoned a small army of demons, and set them loose across the countryside. This spread out their forces, and left the capital less guarded for the suprise attack that followed. He managed to get the crown, severly injuring the ruler in the process. Since then, Impiltur has put down the demons in it's borders, and are preparing for a full out war against the Nar. If I were to continue with that campaign arc, Impiltur would go to war, and fair fair badly against the Nar and their demon reinforcements, until they were re-inforced By Gareth Dragon'sbane. Then they will begin to push back the Nar, and force the Sorcerer to open a huge gate, releasing a horde of demons against them. Some last minute aid from the witches of Rashamen would seal the gate, and the players get to defeat the sorcerer, shattering the fragile unity of the Nar tribes. Yep still like it......Wouldn't mind getting in on something like that, where do you play ?:P
Bonzai 11-29-06, 05:50 PM	Shreveport, LA. If I get enough free time one day, I may write it all up in a proper campaign format. This was my attempt at a long epic adventure campaign. The history of Narfell intrigued me, so I made the campaign around it. In the end, the group moved on to something else.
Mathas 12-03-06, 01:21 AM	I've changed the Realm's n a couple of ways, mainly from previous games I've DM'd. IN Cormanthor, a contingent of Elves and Humans have begun to retake Myth Drannor, in Shadowdale a small settlement has sprung up called Edoras Outpost, In the North the Great Red Wyrm Klauth is seeking the Cult of The Dragon, in my curent game he's ben thinking of becoming a Drco Lich
DreamStalker 12-03-06, 05:52 AM	I too do not like to throw out what has been published. Mostly I clarify, tweak or add to. Being around for so long and written by so many authors all the contradictions and retcons makes it easy to do what I want and find something I prefer. Some of the major tweaks I run with are below as well as a few of the additions I did. The Seldarine: The elves have a connection to the Seldarine similar to their connection to the Weave. Elves do not get the same sort of fulfillment from worshipping others as they do the Seldarine. I stress the animistic and ancestral connotations of the worship. The sylvan divinities are considered cousins to the Seldarine, and by extension the elves consider the various sylvan creatures to be distant relatives in some sense. The Seldarine accept worship from N'tel'quessir and even grant blessings on certain peoples such as the Harpers, but they do not grant spells to them. The elves acknowledge other divinities, and even respect for the most part the primal forces such as Mystra and Chauntea. Worship however is almost unheard of. Primal Deities: Certain deities are part of the primal functions of Toril. Chauntea, Mystra, Shar and so on can all survive without mortal worship. Without worship they do not die just revert to non-sentient forces. Their functions are subject to interference if another deity took the portfolio however. Therefore, Mystra could be truly well and forgotten. If that happened magic would continue to work normally and likely another deity would gain the portfolio and wield great power over her. Other deities require mortal praise to keep their presence known in the Realms. When individuals 'discover' some force to provide power they really just tapped into one of the primal deities. This is such a case with all of the Druids who worship nature. They are just touching upon Silvanus who largely does not care, his face exists because he is worshippped and does not feel threatened if there are those who follow the basic tenants of druidry without paying him named adulation. Cosmology: I use both the Great Wheel and the Tree view of the universe. The Great Wheel is how the greater multiverse works and the Tree is how the Realms largely interacts with it. Spelljamming while rare still has a presence. Greyhawk has a 'lot' of interaction with the Realms as such things can be measured. There are other important such worlds to the Realms such as the Elven world of Faerie, the realm of the Gray Orcs, the Illithid Realm, the world that the Unther and Mulhorandi people come from (not Earth in my Realms), a few other such human dominated worlds, and so on. Travel to other worlds is easiest access through Shadow, but the most dangerous. Spelljamming is very long, is safer for certain routes, but largely requires access to knowledge most cultures do not have. Travel through the astral and the outer planes is the 'safest' and sometimes 'quickest' methods to reach other such worlds but very few are in the know on the tricks and many routes are heavily controlled by certain powers. Most of the official campaign settings I do not link up with for certain flavor reasons, but I love Planescape, so it is. Polytheism: I really stress the polytheistic ways of most peoples in the realms. I have some partial rules stored away on worshipping two deities and psuedo-pantheons. I also encourage pantheonic clergy for the close knit pantheons (the racial and mulhorandi). Loth's Silence: In my campaign where this featured the end results were extremely different. I incorporated the Harrowing adventure from Dragon magazine into this. In the end Laveth and a few new drow deities ended up losing their divinity to power Loth's grand scheme. Loth found a way to reverse her banishment and restore that essential part of herself that made her Seldarine. She is now in truth a more powerful Araushnee that is largely worshipped under the aspect of Loth. A handful of drow that were intimately involved in the scheme were uncursed and are in direct competition with the drow for her favor as they attempt to reclaim the lost lands of the Ssri'tel'quessir while the drow continue Below. I had some other further plans for this, Araushnee's victory not long lasting, but the campaign fell off. Sorcerors: Sorcerors are more prominent. I made a few of the lands actually respect sorcerors in places I felt it fitting. The Silver Marches, Mulhorand, Rasheman and Halruua in particular. Many places they are still distrusted, and certain places they are basically slaves or resources to be used up such as Thay. Wild/Wood Elves: I make sure the Wood Elves are only in areas where the various elven subraces mixed after the Crown Wars. WotC was very lazy in my opinion about making sure the distinctions were clear and accurate. The remote settlements of elves are the wild elves. Eldruuth Velrua: They have divine support. Mostly priest of Shevarsh who consider the fight against humans not necessarily important as the fight against drow but a cause of worth. A small spattering of CN clergy of other faiths who are not bothered by the acts against innocent humans. Shadow Weave/Weave: Silverfire doesn't pwn shadow weave users. I allow the anti Shadow Weave feats classes and such, as that is an investment to fight a very very small minority of bad guys, or at the least heavily setting yourself for a major campaign element. However there is no such thing as 'pure' Weave magic. Largely the two weaves don't interact unless something is specifically designed to do so. The Shadow Weave is more fragile and corrupting, but not necessarily weaker for the individual user. Karsus' Folly didn't create the Shadow Weave, though most people who know of the Shadow Weave have evidence that it is truth.
Sir_Wolfgar 12-03-06, 02:07 PM	Karsus' Folly didn't create the Shadow Weave, though most people who know of the Shadow Weave have evidence that it is truth. I like that. If people remove association of the Shadow Weave from Shar, they might be more likely to experiment with it. And then Shar can sneak in and subvert people. Great stuff.
DreamStalker 12-03-06, 06:32 PM	Most followers down the path of the Shadow Weave are unaware of who holds sway until long after it is too late to worry. In campaigns where the Shadow Weave is important when knowledge of the Shadow Weave begins to spread and form into factions that hunt them, those groups do not openly spread that knowledge for fear it will spread even further. Besides, Shar is a clever patient and manipulative. The mere act of using the Shadow Weave strengthens her and weakens Mystra so many followers of the Shadow Weave are not zealous Sharrans seeking to corrupt the world. Though in most cases that is where they may end up. One of the most vexing problems facing those who battle against the Shadow Weave is that those who let slip their use of the magic have a tendency to disappear before being battled or questioned.
MerrikCale 12-03-06, 09:17 PM	I like that. If people remove association of the Shadow Weave from Shar, they might be more likely to experiment with it. And then Shar can sneak in and subvert people. Great stuff. and more like Shar
Krash 12-04-06, 01:43 AM	Most followers down the path of the Shadow Weave are unaware of who holds sway until long after it is too late to worry. In campaigns where the Shadow Weave is important when knowledge of the Shadow Weave begins to spread and form into factions that hunt them, those groups do not openly spread that knowledge for fear it will spread even further. Besides, Shar is a clever patient and manipulative. The mere act of using the Shadow Weave strengthens her and weakens Mystra so many followers of the Shadow Weave are not zealous Sharrans seeking to corrupt the world. Though in most cases that is where they may end up. One of the most vexing problems facing those who battle against the Shadow Weave is that those who let slip their use of the magic have a tendency to disappear before being battled or questioned. *ding**ding**ding**ding* Give the man a cigar. This is EXACTLY what the Shadow Weave is all about - the price that Shar is going to levy for using its power. -- George Krashos
GothicDan 12-04-06, 01:51 AM	Shar's like a bank! OF EVIL.
Karsus the Mad 12-04-06, 02:30 AM	I wonder what the loan interest is:smirk:
Deus_ex_Invictus 12-04-06, 02:35 AM	Mystra is TN and pretty much acts like a female version of Boccob (sp?), but of course at the moment I'm planning a Post-Karsus being a insane lunatic, campaign so I suppose that doesn't matter.
kelcimer 12-04-06, 03:55 PM	Very much. • Most of my game has been centered around the Vast. The Vast is very developed for me. I have it at the beginning of a decade long process of becoming a political entity known as "The Vast Union". [Note: "Ravens Bluff the Living City" is for me the greatest FR gaming accessory put out.] • Sembia preemtively took Archendale, Featherdale, Tasseldale, and Scardale south of the river. Currently, it is the Summer of 1375 and a fierce war is being fought primarily in Archendale. The Dales are being aided by forces from Ravens Bluff and Caluant (it had a regime change brought about by a previous group of players). My players are on an epic quest to gather various artifacts that when used in conjunction will merge all the Mythals of Cormanthor into one huge Mega Mythal. Once completed the forest will grow south to the River Archen and north over Zhentil Keep. It's kinda hard to be a strong nation waging war when trees fill your roads, fields, towns, etc. the Zhents will find it diffictult to opperate when their own back yard is over grown with Cormanthor growing to the Border Forest. And finally, the Drow in Cormanthor will have a hard time hanging around when they must pass a daily fortitude save or loose another 1d3 constitution points. In the wake of that I expect political instability to lead to the general break up of what's left of Sembia. By 1380 the western bits will be incorporated into Cormyr, with Searloon, Selgaunt, and surrounding lands being what remains of Sembia. • I blew up Waterdeep. I know a lot of people love Waterdeep and I used to be a fan too, so I should that. I wanted my players to go through Waterdeep, because I hadn't actually played with the city before. The new Waterdeep book had just been printed so I bought it. Now, the last city book I bought was Ravens Bluff: The Living City. I know the Waterdeep book is not likely to be as good, but I figure it'll be decent. I found more use in any quarter page of text from the The Living City then in the entirety of the Waterdeep book. I've read the Elaine Cunningham books around Waterdeep. I really wanted to like it. Most of the time when I find something wanting, I either ignore it or do a small change or extrapolation of the source material. But Waterdeep is just so damn central to the Realms AND IT MADE NO SENSE WHAT SO EVER. Waterdeep had to go. So when my players apporached the city they found people leaving the city in droves. Something in Undermountain was sucking all energy from miles around. babies were dying, meat spoiling, plants withering, people just lying down in the street and not getting up again. This had been going on for a couple weeks and growing in intensity. As the players were leaving, an Akira type explosion destroyed Waterdeep and everything within a 5 mile radius. Where waterdeep used to be can be seen from space. :)
Dark Wizard 12-04-06, 06:57 PM	But Waterdeep is just so damn central to the Realms AND IT MADE NO SENSE WHAT SO EVER. Waterdeep had to go. Why do you think that?
DreamStalker 12-04-06, 08:35 PM	I love Waterdeep as well. It is the Constantinople of the Dark Ages or the London of the 1800s. A little bit of everything passes through or finds itself1 in exile there at some point. I actually found the Waterdeep book to be really good overall. Sure, too much reprinting of new rules systems. Some of the parts of the book had little meat whether crunch or fluff. Yet overall I found it highly enjoyable. I wish box sets were still a business worthy proposition. Waterdeep is one of those places that trully deserves a box set. Blowing up Waterdeep has some fun applications that make doing it worthwhile however. I may consider doing this in a campaign in spring. Yes *rubs hands*
Red_Wizard 12-05-06, 11:20 AM	I wish box sets were still a business worthy proposition. Waterdeep is one of those places that trully deserves a box set. Most agreed. The day's of the Box Set are thuroughly missed, and the wealth of lore and information in them remains unriveled by anything of 3E+.
kelcimer 12-05-06, 05:30 PM	Why do you think that? A good part is that all the life the material may have had was sucked out of it in the phrasing. When I read a gaming accessory I want something that's going to make me excited. Felt more like stereo instructions. The fact that the bulk of the book was parapharsed reprinted material didn't help. After that, I didn't get a sence of the city. Why exactly does Waterdeep exist where it does? Baldur's Gate is a much more understandable location for a city that large. (By and by, my Baldur's Gate is absorbing a good chunk of Waterdeeps refugees and will be taking over many of the nitches that might otherwise be expected of Waterdeep.) What does the Ward System do? There are not actual walls separating them, nor is it a tax designation, so what exactly is this "Ward System" supposed to do? It is suggested in places that Waterdeep exerts vast control for hundreds of miles, but somehow there's no towns or villages near it. Where is the detailing of the vast farmlands needed to feed a city this big? Why doesn't the city buildings burst beyond it's walls? Were when the walls built were they much more then needed and it's only just reaching maximum capacity? I think not. The place descriptions in the back for the individual locations has numbers and letters designating what kind of structure it is and a name. that's not much to inspire the imagination. Look in the back of The Living City and take the Walking Tour and see how the back of the book should have been done. I don't have the book in front of me, but that's what I rememebr off hand.
Krash 12-05-06, 06:07 PM	A good part is that all the life the material may have had was sucked out of it in the phrasing. When I read a gaming accessory I want something that's going to make me excited. Felt more like stereo instructions. The fact that the bulk of the book was parapharsed reprinted material didn't help. The bulk of the book wasn't anything of the kind. After that, I didn't get a sence of the city. Why exactly does Waterdeep exist where it does? Baldur's Gate is a much more understandable location for a city that large. (By and by, my Baldur's Gate is absorbing a good chunk of Waterdeeps refugees and will be taking over many of the nitches that might otherwise be expected of Waterdeep.) The best deepwater harbour north of Baldur's Gate, with steep cliffs for the most part in between. Access to resources such as lumber and metal ores and gems from the nearby mountains. Sits on a defensible plateau. What's the attraction of the location of Baldur's Gate? What does the Ward System do? There are not actual walls separating them, nor is it a tax designation, so what exactly is this "Ward System" supposed to do? Delineate the city for administrative purposes, law and order and places to go. Dock Ward for trade, for example. It's not a rigid separation but a good pointer for those foreign to the city. It is suggested in places that Waterdeep exerts vast control for hundreds of miles, but somehow there's no towns or villages near it. Where is the detailing of the vast farmlands needed to feed a city this big? You've never read Volo's Guide to the North have you? Or downloaded the recent web enhancement for City of Splendors: Waterdeep. I suggest you do so. Why doesn't the city buildings burst beyond it's walls? Were when the walls built were they much more then needed and it's only just reaching maximum capacity? I think not. Because people like to be safe. There are many perils that abound the region from orc raiding groups to trolls to pirates and undersea menaces. You live outside the walls, you take your chances. Oh, and Waterdeep and its walls (originally a dirt palisade) have expanded about 3 times in its history. Eventually, this may occur once again. The place descriptions in the back for the individual locations has numbers and letters designating what kind of structure it is and a name. that's not much to inspire the imagination. Look in the back of The Living City and take the Walking Tour and see how the back of the book should have been done. I don't have the book in front of me, but that's what I rememebr off hand. Find or buy FR1 Waterdeep and the North, Volo's Guide to Waterdeep, Volo's Guide to the North, the Ruins of Undermountain boxed set and the City of Splendors boxed set and you will see that there is a wealth of information on the city and its environs that you haven't seen yet. -- George Krashos
Dark Wizard 12-05-06, 06:57 PM	I was going to say what Krash said, but he said it better.
Karsus the Mad 12-05-06, 07:48 PM	Most agreed. The day's of the Box Set are thuroughly missed, and the wealth of lore and information in them remains unriveled by anything of 3E+. Oh definitely. While I'm not big on Waterdeep, it's purely a personal quirk. I simply don't like anything about it. I don't know why, it's not logical, it's not style. I simply don't like it, whatsoever. BUT, I'd truly and utterly love a new boxed set. Doesn't matter what it's about, so long as it fills a nice 3 inch thich, 12 inch long cardboard box *to the brim*, detailing....everything about...something I don't know about...I'd love it.
kelcimer 12-05-06, 08:03 PM	The bulk of the book wasn't anything of the kind.All I can say is different stokes for different folks. The best deepwater harbour north of Baldur's Gate, with steep cliffs for the most part in between. Access to resources such as lumber and metal ores and gems from the nearby mountains. Sits on a defensible plateau. What's the attraction of the location of Baldur's Gate? Waterdeep is supposed to be this huge trade city. That's generally what causes a city to gain a huge population. So what if you have the best harbor ever? If it's not between anything then it's not gonna do very much business.I could buy that it would be maybe a medium sized city because of the ore and being the last stop before you hit the North, but not the second largest city in Faerun. Balder's Gate is ideally situated for trade coming from the Sea of Fallen Stars to all points on the coast from the far north to Calimshan. Routes to the north and south lack that nice river and are dangerous for other reasons. It has Location, Location, Location. Delineate the city for administrative purposes, law and order and places to go. Dock Ward for trade, for example. It's not a rigid separation but a good pointer for those foreign to the city. Admin purposes? That means what? Different city guard precients? tav purposes? Exactly what purposes? It doesn't say. Sure the Dock Ward is where alot of trade happens, but all cities have a section of the city where a lot of trade happens. A city as large as Waterdeep should have bunches of little trade sections with different characters. Ravens Bluff, a city many times smaller then Waterdeep, has something like 20 or so different sections of the city. Each section of the city a different character and history from the rest of the city. Different parts of the docks had different characters history and purpose, that sort of thing. Waterdeep should have been divided into at least 30 or so sections. You've never read Volo's Guide to the North have you? Or downloaded the recent web enhancement for City of Splendors: Waterdeep. I suggest you do so.If I need to get web enhancements for a gaming product to make sense, then it's not much of a product. Because people like to be safe. There are many perils that abound the region from orc raiding groups to trolls to pirates and undersea menaces. You live outside the walls, you take your chances. Oh, and Waterdeep and its walls (originally a dirt palisade) have expanded about 3 times in its history. Eventually, this may occur once again. If Waterdeep is really attacked so often that no one lives outside it's walls then exactly how can the surrounding farmland be maintained to provide food? Find or buy FR1 Waterdeep and the North, Volo's Guide to Waterdeep, Volo's Guide to the North, the Ruins of Undermountain boxed set and the City of Splendors boxed set and you will see that there is a wealth of information on the city and its environs that you haven't seen yet.Thanks, but no thanks. Waterdeep is really useful to me now. Anytime I want some piece of knowledge or item to be unretrievable I say something like, "It was last seen in Waterdeep" or "That was kept at X place in Waterdeep." I suggest you take a look at Raven's Bluff: the Living City and see the difference I'm talking about between the products. It's a 2nd Ed product, but pure gold.
Krash 12-05-06, 08:36 PM	:) I've read it. Several times. A great resource. If you can get past some of the names. Ed did what he could with the RPGA material he had to work with. Oh, and just how do you learn about anything if you aren't prepared to consult all the various sources on a subject? Interesting attitude if you are of a scholastic-bent. -- George Krashos
Faraer 12-05-06, 08:42 PM	Claiming something doesn't make sense without being fully informed about it is a complete waste of time. It's also no use without agreeing on a standard of sense. Of all the cities to cite for logic, the RPGA's Raven's Bluff???? Ed's job on that is a miracle and must have been a nightmare.
kelcimer 12-05-06, 08:46 PM	:) I've read it. Several times. A great resource.Cool beans.:cool: Oh, and just how do you learn about anything if you aren't prepared to consult all the various sources on a subject? Interesting attitude if you are of a scholastic-bent. This is a campaign setting, not a poli-sci class. When it comes to the setting I use the books I've already bought. I basically allow myself to buy one campaign accessory a year give or take. I'm not a FR completist, and have no desire to be. I do think that if a book says it's going to be all about X area that is be ALL about X area and give it it's best face. Primary type material should not be left for the supplements.
Krash 12-05-06, 08:58 PM	All I can say is different stokes for different folks. Cool, let's have a decent chinwag. How can you claim that the material in CoS:W was, to quote you, "paraphrased reprinted material" when you quite obviously haven't read any of that previous material ... ?? Waterdeep is supposed to be this huge trade city. That's generally what causes a city to gain a huge population. So what if you have the best harbor ever? If it's not between anything then it's not gonna do very much business.I could buy that it would be maybe a medium sized city because of the ore and being the last stop before you hit the North, but not the second largest city in Faerun. Balder's Gate is ideally situated for trade coming from the Sea of Fallen Stars to all points on the coast from the far north to Calimshan. Routes to the north and south lack that nice river and are dangerous for other reasons. It has Location, Location, Location. Baldur's Gate is in no way ideally situated for trade coming through the Sea of Fallen Stars. It's too far west on the coast for trade coming from the east, and too far south from trade coming ffrom the north. Waterdeep is the gateway into the Dessarin Valley and just north of the Delimbiyr River which are the prime river routes for trade traffic. The city of Scornubel is the pivot point for Inner Sea/Moonsea trade - they decide then whether to head for Baldur's Gate and points south or Waterdeep and points north. That's why it's called the City of Caravans. Southern trade also doesn't necessarily funnel through BG as the merchants of Amn are established enough to head straight into the Heartlands (Berdusk, Irieabor etc.) without stopping there. Oh, and BG is way too far south to be the conduit and hub for trade from the North. Trade caravans from Silverymoon, Luskan and Mirabar would have a devil of a time getting to BG. Far easier to funnel through Waterdeep, and then east to Scornubel and then through the Heartlands. Admin purposes? That means what? Different city guard precincts? tav purposes? Exactly what purposes? It doesn't say. Sure the Dock Ward is where alot of trade happens, but all cities have a section of the city where a lot of trade happens. A city as large as Waterdeep should have bunches of little trade sections with different characters. Ravens Bluff, a city many times smaller then Waterdeep, has something like 20 or so different sections of the city. Each section of the city a different character and history from the rest of the city. Different parts of the docks had different characters history and purpose, that sort of thing. Waterdeep should have been divided into at least 30 or so sections. I was speaking broadly. Space doesn't permit specifics other than to say that indeed, Waterdeep does have various mercantile 'sections'; they just aren't delineated as such in terms of an official structure. The ward system exists to give official status to the likely loose groupings of various aspects of the city's social and commercial elements during its formative years. It shouldn't be and isn't a rigid delineation of the city other than in name. I'm not sure I'm understanding the "If Raven's Bluff has X, then so should Waterdeep" argument. I live in a city where the central business district is bounded by a belt of parklands. That's not the case in any other capital city here. If I need to get web enhancements for a gaming product to make sense, then it's not much of a product. It was in the original gaming product. It got cut for space. If you can't be bothered downloading it then it's your loss. If Waterdeep is really attacked so often that no one lives outside it's walls then exactly how can the surrounding farmland be maintained to provide food? Oh this one is easy: Goldenfields. -- George Krashos
Dark Wizard 12-05-06, 09:05 PM	To be fair, City of Ravens is a 2e supplement, for an equal interpretation, consult the 2e sources on Waterdeep. Might give you a more balanced view on the subject. Maybe the 3e presentation of Waterdeep doesn't sit well with you, while 2e material does. Waterdeep has more prestige for the same reason Los Angelas has more prestige despite San Francisco having nearly every terrain/location advantage over it. The same reason New York City is the "capital of the world" despite all the shipping going through New Jersey nowadays. Waterdeep is the gateway to the North (the last major stop), with all it's raw materials and places like the Silver Marches. It is the middleman between the more "civilized" south and the frontier north. Waterdeep controls prices of goods coming in and out of the North, Baldur's Gate just plays the port to potentially stop at in the middle. Baldur's Gate competes with Athkatla, Calimsport and Waterdeep (not to mention Murann, Zazasspur, Myratma, and Memnon). Waterdeep outcompetes it's neighboring cities of Luskan, Neverwinter and Baldur's Gate. Baldur's Gate doesn't even have a terribly important position amongst the cities with access to the Sea of Fallen Stars, Marsember and Westgate hold that role, they're the port gateways from the Western Heartlands to the Sea of Fallen Stars. They control what comes in and out of the Sea of Fallen Stars. Baldur's Gate isn't really a funnel, just one of many possible ports to stop at, Waterdeep is a funnel of trade to the north and back. The population of the lands surrounding Waterdeep is actually quite large, supported by places like Goldenfields.
kelcimer 12-05-06, 09:22 PM	Claiming something doesn't make sense without being fully informed about it is a complete waste of time. It's also no use without agreeing on a standard of sense. Of all the cities to cite for logic, the RPGA's Raven's Bluff???? Ed's job on that is a miracle and must have been a nightmare. So are you suggesting that a product by itself does not need to make sense? That's an interesting assertion to make. I know not what other information abounds concerning Ravens Bluff, nor do I care what kind of insanity they may or may not have been. RB:TLC is really all I need on the city. That product makes sense to me. It needs no supplements. I'm sorry that you may think that's a bad thing.
BrennonGoldeye 12-05-06, 09:30 PM	On such a rare occasion that I get to agree with George, as we both love the phrase "in no way", I celebrate!:dancin: If I need to get web enhancements for a gaming product to make sense, then it's not much of a product. Say it truely, if you need the enhancements for it to make sense to you. Pick up another book if you want to know more. Or for heaven's sake right-click. Don't beat down things you aren't even willing to look at. This is a campaign setting, not a poli-sci class. When it comes to the setting I use the books I've already bought. I basically allow myself to buy one campaign accessory a year give or take. I'm not a FR completist, and have no desire to be. I do think that if a book says it's going to be all about X area that is be ALL about X area and give it it's best face. Primary type material should not be left for the supplements. So if you don't own it then it must be deficeint. Nothing may be upgraded? The old arguement of "I'm not a D&D geek(completist)" doesn't fly here, as all the info you need is free, and you pointed the geek finger at yourself by posting. Now be a humble geek.;) So much more to say, but my WoW patch just finished. SWLL all..:cip:
Faraer 12-05-06, 09:33 PM	So are you suggesting that a product by itself does not need to make sense? That's an interesting assertion to make.No, I'm saying that you can't necessarily tell if it makes sense. A 160-page book can't describe all the underlying workings of a city, and if you don't see how something works, the logical conclusion is 'I don't know why', not 'it doesn't'.
kelcimer 12-05-06, 10:10 PM	Cool, let's have a decent chinwag. How can you claim that the material in CoS:W was, to quote you, "paraphrased reprinted material" when you quite obviously haven't read any of that previous material ... ?? I looked over the 2nd Ed product about 7 or 8 years ago. A friend of mine had it. I recall flipping though it and not seeing anything to catch my eye. In preparing that adventure I looked up Waterdeep in all my other books. The little bit that each of those books had had more life to them and I seem to recall that those same bits of info appeared in the Waterdeep book, but paraphrased. Somewhere along the way the life came out of it. What can I say, eh? I tried. Baldur's Gate is in no way ideally situated for trade coming through the Sea of Fallen Stars. It's too far west on the coast for trade coming from the east, and too far south from trade coming ffrom the north. I'm running off what is said about Westgate and the Dragon Coast: that Trade going West from the Sea of Fallen Stars hits them first. makes sense to me that they'd hit the River Chionthar and ride it to the sea. Figure it would be like stuff going down the Mississippi to New Orleans. I was speaking broadly. Space doesn't permit specifics other than to say that indeed, Waterdeep does have various mercantile 'sections'; they just aren't delineated as such in terms of an official structure. The ward system exists to give official status to the likely loose groupings of various aspects of the city's social and commercial elements during its formative years. It shouldn't be and isn't a rigid delineation of the city other than in name.There you go! Loose groupings within the Wards! That's what I'd have liked to see detailed. Without that it was just two many sqaures on a map for me. I'm not sure I'm understanding the "If Raven's Bluff has X, then so should Waterdeep" argument. I live in a city where the central business district is bounded by a belt of parklands. That's not the case in any other capital city here. I'm only saying it should have been like RB:TLC in terms of detail and defining the city. I wouldn't have wanted it to be a carbon copy of the Bluff. It was in the original gaming product. It got cut for space. If you can't be bothered downloading it then it's your loss.It's just as much of a loss to me as it is for you to not use RB:TLC. So no loss for me. I have enough gaming material. So much Realms...so little time... Oh this one is easy: Goldenfields. I give. I couldn't find a Goldenfields on the big map. Not near Waterdeep at any rate. If it's near Waterdeep then shouldn't it be laid to waste or something by all those nasty things that keep the people within the walls?
GothicDan 12-05-06, 10:17 PM	I do think that if a book says it's going to be all about X area that is be ALL about X area and give it it's best face. Primary type material should not be left for the supplements. I don't know about you, but I don't have the hundred of dollars it would take to buy supplements that really detailed ALL of Waterdeep... Though I'd love the idea of it. ;)
Dark Wizard 12-05-06, 10:21 PM	I don't know about you, but I don't have the hundred of dollars it would take to buy supplements that really detailed ALL of Waterdeep... Though I'd love the idea of it. ;) Many forum posters suggested that WotC look into the format used to present Monte Cook's Ptolus, which might come close to the ideal sourcebook on presenting a massive metropolis/iconic city of a setting (Like Waterdeep, Sharn, or Sigil).
kelcimer 12-05-06, 10:23 PM	Say it truely, if you need the enhancements for it to make sense to you. Pick up another book if you want to know more. Precisely. I don't want to. Or for heaven's sake right-click. Don't beat down things you aren't even willing to look at. Looks to me like all I'm "beating down" is a product I've already bought and read. And at that, all I'm saying is that it didn't work for me and why. I'm not saying it's no use to other people. So read what I write "for heaven's sake". So if you don't own it then it must be deficeint. Nothing may be upgraded? Nope. I did not assert that. I buy what interests me. The old arguement of "I'm not a D&D geek(completist)" doesn't fly here, as all the info you need is free, and you pointed the geek finger at yourself by posting. Now be a humble geek.;) Oh, I'm a gamer geek, make no mistake. But I don't have a need to buy ALL THINGS Faerun. I've cherry picked the Downloads section for certain maps and certain 2nd ed products. If that isn't geek enough for you then I'm sorry for not being "pure" enough for you. Meh.
kelcimer 12-05-06, 10:26 PM	No, I'm saying that you can't necessarily tell if it makes sense. A 160-page book can't describe all the underlying workings of a city, and if you don't see how something works, the logical conclusion is 'I don't know why', not 'it doesn't'. It should make enough sense to warrent further looking into. If the writers couldn't be bothered to make the core product of a location make a minimum amount of sense then why should they have been bothered to make it make sense elsewhere?
Dark Wizard 12-05-06, 10:33 PM	If that isn't geek enough for you then I'm sorry for not being "pure" enough for you. Meh. That amused me. :D Don't get us wrong, you're perfectly entitled to your opinion. A lot of posters here just want to know why you think that way, especially when the information you used to answer why isn't how other (probably more complete) sources portray the city. I'm personally not crazy about Waterdeep, I view it like any other large city in the Realms. A lot of people don't like the format of the 3e books either, which was why I suggested looking at more 2e sources for a more comparable representation of Waterdeep to Raven's Bluff.
Karsus the Mad 12-05-06, 10:42 PM	If that isn't geek enough for you then I'm sorry for not being "pure" enough for you. Meh. I love that response...don't know why, but I do...I just do...It reminds me of a movie...I wonder which movie it reminds me of:confused:
kelcimer 12-05-06, 10:51 PM	But this thread is about how we have changed the Realms. I've used the loss of Waterdeep to justify Many Arrows taking over everything West of the Silver Marches & the High Forest, and everything north of where Waterdeep used to be. Except for Neverwinter. Neverwinter is going to be a tough nut for him to crack, if he ever does. Because of the Explosion of Waterdeep a vast swath of my underdark has been flooded. Sages in my Faerun now have evidence to point to an inteligence behind the underdark, because the rupture sealed itself in a matter about a week. Maybe not an intelligence, but something is keeping everything below sealevel from being flooded. Also, the explosion extended though open portals to places all over Faerun, in some cases laying waste to portions of other cities. It was a sever blow to most power groups in the realms. The harpers have been especially devestated. There was an open portal between Waterdeep and Berdusk Hall. In the background I have the harpers being rebuilt by one my old player's retired character. I'm working this out with him. Essentially his character is pulling back what resources the Harpers still have to create a geographic core harper territory [They've always been overextended. think what they could do it their efforts were concentrated.] In order to do this he's going to wind up allying the harpers to a certain newly forming political entity. Thus I will have the harpers go from being a stateless actor to something more legitamite. I also have a new Cromarkh of Westgate who successfully crushed the Night Masks, defeated the vampires, destroyed those pesty artifacts of the Night King, and has brought the nobles into line. He's building a fleet and an army to rid the Pirate Isles of the Pirates and claim it all for Westgate. That's his plan. Not sure how it's all gonna turn out.
kelcimer 12-05-06, 10:57 PM	That amused me. :D Don't get us wrong, you're perfectly entitled to your opinion. A lot of posters here just want to know why you think that way, especially when the information you used to answer why isn't how other (probably more complete) sources portray the city. I'm personally not crazy about Waterdeep, I view it like any other large city in the Realms. A lot of people don't like the format of the 3e books either, which was why I suggested looking at more 2e sources for a more comparable representation of Waterdeep to Raven's Bluff. Rock on. I'll take another look at it when I get home to see if I can give you a better answer. Right now this is me ending a 13 hour work day. G'night.:cool:
Dark Wizard 12-05-06, 11:13 PM	But this thread is about how we have changed the Realms. I've used the loss of Waterdeep to justify Many Arrows taking over everything West of the Silver Marches & the High Forest, and everything north of where Waterdeep used to be. Except for Neverwinter. Neverwinter is going to be a tough nut for him to crack, if he ever does. Because of the Explosion of Waterdeep a vast swath of my underdark has been flooded. Sages in my Faerun now have evidence to point to an inteligence behind the underdark, because the rupture sealed itself in a matter about a week. Maybe not an intelligence, but something is keeping everything below sealevel from being flooded. Also, the explosion extended though open portals to places all over Faerun, in some cases laying waste to portions of other cities. It was a sever blow to most power groups in the realms. Your changes are exciting and the consequences well thought out. I certainly wouldn't mind playing in a game where Waterdeep became a sunken crater, especially if it produces the radical and logical shifts in power that such an event should create. What raised my eyebrow was the way you expressed how and why you did it. It seemed almost as if you had a bad run in with something involving Waterdeep and just hated the fictional city to the point of wanting to destroy it in a very spectacular and terrible way for spite. I've seen people on these boards dislike certain aspect of the setting so much that they purposely remove it in the most violent and wrathful way they can, as if they derive some justice, or for some a perverse pleasure, in doing so. Not that I'm saying you did, I'm ust wary of such reasons. I prefer to hear a more sensible: "I feel other (Aspect X) are cooler and the sensible loss of Aspect Y would make it so." The harpers have been especially devestated. There was an open portal between Waterdeep and Berdusk Hall. In the background I have the harpers being rebuilt by one my old player's retired character. I'm working this out with him. Essentially his character is pulling back what resources the Harpers still have to create a geographic core harper territory [They've always been overextended. think what they could do it their efforts were concentrated.] In order to do this he's going to wind up allying the harpers to a certain newly forming political entity. Thus I will have the harpers go from being a stateless actor to something more legitamite. That's roughly what I did with the Harpers. I focused their influence in Berdusk and the surrounding Western Heartlands and made them go semi-legit. :D
Harrowdroth 12-05-06, 11:17 PM	I introduced the Cthulhu mythos to the realms :D Ao is then an old one... the gods are minor players then, the OLD ones are all like Ao though, Far removed... except Cthulhu, who is taking a long nap underwater... please do not behead me for this
Dark Wizard 12-05-06, 11:47 PM	I introduced the Cthulhu mythos to the realms :D Ao is then an old one... the gods are minor players then, the OLD ones are all like Ao though, Far removed... except Cthulhu, who is taking a long nap underwater... please do not behead me for this Considering D&D has mindflayers as a nod to Cthulhu and many FR writers/designers have a deep respect for prominent pulp writers like Lovecraft and his contemporaries, why would we want your head? Well, there are the multiheaded grafting experiments to stock heads for , so don't tell anyone else on these boards about those, for your own head's sake. I personally only take volunteers, but I can't speak for others.
Red_Wizard 12-06-06, 11:32 AM	To kelcimer, from someone who is a person who has to own everything Realms, I would suggest that from now on, should you encounter issues with a 3E sourcebook, always go back to the 2E material. If your simply not interested in the 3E aspect, by all means glaze over it, but in this case what I think your saying is that the 3E waterdeep caught your eye. And I know, that from reading 2E sources, and comparing them to their 3E counterparts, that with only the exception of updated date occurances, I will always go back to my 2E source....they really are that much more informative ;)
Dexter_Blacktyde 12-06-06, 12:17 PM	While I don't necessarily agree with kelcimer, he has a point. He can't be expected to purchase more and more supplements to get what he was promised to get by purchasing the 3.5 Waterdeep supplement in the first place. If CoS is supposed to be the sourcebook for all things Waterdhavian, it should live up to what it set out to be, and if someone thinks it doesn't, they should be allowed to say so. It's not the customer's job to hunt down additional out-of-print material, it's WotC's job to make a supplement that doesn't require you to fall back on previous editions. Moreover, not everyone has the means to acquire 2e material. The print versions are hard to come by, and IIRC if you're not living in the US (and / or don't have a credit card or don't want to use it online), you have a hard time obtaining the PDFs. Correct me if I'm mistaken. DB
BrennonGoldeye 12-06-06, 05:30 PM	Precisely. I don't want to. That's obvious. Very obvious. And strangely appropriate. So read what I write "for heaven's sake". Oh, I have. Have you? Why exactly does Waterdeep exist where it does? Baldur's Gate is a much more understandable location for a city that large. (By and by, my Baldur's Gate is absorbing a good chunk of Waterdeeps refugees and will be taking over many of the nitches that might otherwise be expected of Waterdeep.) What does the Ward System do? There are not actual walls separating them, nor is it a tax designation, so what exactly is this "Ward System" supposed to do? It is suggested in places that Waterdeep exerts vast control for hundreds of miles, but somehow there's no towns or villages near it. Where is the detailing of the vast farmlands needed to feed a city this big? Why doesn't the city buildings burst beyond it's walls? Were when the walls built were they much more then needed and it's only just reaching maximum capacity? I think not. Krash offered all the answers or at least links to them.. Your response... This is a campaign setting, not a poli-sci class. When it comes to the setting I use the books I've already bought. I basically allow myself to buy one campaign accessory a year give or take. I'm not a FR completist, and have no desire to be. I do think that if a book says it's going to be all about X area that is be ALL about X area and give it it's best face. Primary type material should not be left for the supplements. Remeber the humble part of geekdom? kelcimer, all I was saying is quit the whining about incomplete products if you aren't willing to tap a finger to have them expanded out for you. Surprise! Nothing in all the spheres is complete or without error. It's the attitude of "Explain this! But only with what I already know. Tell me nothing new, I should already know this cause I spent $24.95." Waterdeep is where it is because its located on elven ruins with a partially functioning mythal at a deepwater port that is between the whole of the north and everything else people don't want to walk overland from. If that isn't geek enough for you then I'm sorry for not being "pure" enough for you. Meh. The geek is all there, and well and truly arrayed for battle. It's the attitude that stinks. Oh well, I get the same tude every now and then. Blah, blah, blah.....:D
Karsus the Mad 12-06-06, 07:28 PM	I love you...yup yup yup....
Weiser_Cain 12-07-06, 01:21 AM	No dwarves, gnomes, or halflings. Dwarven kingdoms were replaced by troll cities that are slowly sinking into the underdark. Made the Orcs semi aquatic. Added a race of Lawful Evil winged humans that live in their own pocket plane. Added a massive necropolis to the underdark where vampires rule. At this point I decided I wasn't in forgotten realms anymore.
BrennonGoldeye 12-08-06, 07:26 PM	No dwarves, gnomes, or halflings. Dwarven kingdoms were replaced by troll cities that are slowly sinking into the underdark. Made the Orcs semi aquatic. Added a race of Lawful Evil winged humans that live in their own pocket plane. Added a massive necropolis to the underdark where vampires rule. At this point I decided I wasn't in forgotten realms anymore. Have you named this Prime Aspect?:)
Weiser_Cain 12-09-06, 12:57 AM	There are two actually, no name has stuck. Though one has an awful lot to do with dragons so it'd be criminal not to have dragon in the title
BrennonGoldeye 12-09-06, 04:06 PM	Well, it sound wonderfully ripe for an influxn of Eladrin! I was looking for a place for a summer home...;)
Weiser_Cain 12-10-06, 10:08 PM	Beware the Orcs, and if you see a dragon don't bother praying because the gods can't hear you.
BrennonGoldeye 12-11-06, 08:54 AM	Sounds hot. Let me get all my leathers packed...;)
kelcimer 12-11-06, 01:03 PM	First my apolgies for mislabeling a product. The book that I've been referancing is "The City of Ravens Bluff" not Ravens Bluff: The Living City". To kelcimer, from someone who is a person who has to own everything Realms, I would suggest that from now on, should you encounter issues with a 3E sourcebook, always go back to the 2E material. If your simply not interested in the 3E aspect, by all means glaze over it, but in this case what I think your saying is that the 3E waterdeep caught your eye. And I know, that from reading 2E sources, and comparing them to their 3E counterparts, that with only the exception of updated date occurances, I will always go back to my 2E source....they really are that much more informative ;) I have a bunch of 2e books and still refer back to them, but I'm not going to go hunting them down. I've downloaded a few of the older products only because there is no 3e product that addresses a particular region. (Like, KaraTur, Maztica, Kara-Tur, and the rest of Realms Space.) Trying to hunt down something that already has a 3e equivelent is too much work for my purposes. I did take another look at the product, though. The Griffon Calvery entry entry for. The entry takes up a little over half of a page. A good chunk of that is taken up by the stats for an average griffon calveryman. This is useless info to me. All I need to know about the average rider is that they are fighters around level 6. I'm a bloody DM. I can create my own stats. Stats are easy. It also wastes an entire line with "Authoritive Figure". I don't want to know who their Authoritive Figure is. I want to know who their leader is. In another book they summed it up as "Who Rules:" and "Who Really Rules:" That was good. This is not. I don't need to know what the organizations GP limit is. Their GP limit is whatever I say it should be. There is a name of a commander, but nothing about how he leads. How long has he been the leader? What problems has he faced in running the Griffon Calvery? Where is he trying to bring the institution in the upcoming year or so? The entry takes up a little over a page and a half and provides maybe an 8th of a page worth of useable information. The rest is fluff. That is a typical entry in the book. The chapter on nobles details four noble families. These just happen to be families that have been featured in novels. They give the names of 42 noble families and detail only four of them. That's ********. I want to know a bit about these families. If I wanted names I can easily generate some on my own or use a name generator. The Ravens Bluff book spent a couple paragrahs on some 30 or so families. Not exaustive detail but enough to get a sense of where the family is, where's its been, and an idea of where it's going. And that is really what makes the book suck. It tells you where Waterdeep IS. It doesn't give the trajectories of the people, players, and organizations of the place. It's too much fluff. Too much stats. Not enough soul. Not enough story. That help?
kelcimer 12-11-06, 02:27 PM	That's obvious. Very obvious. And strangely appropriate. You say, "Pick up another book if you want to know more", after I have made plain that I don't have an interest in making waterdeep work for me. So I said: "Precisely. I don't want to." To which you say the above quoted bit. If it was "obvious" to you then why did you suggest that I "pick up another book" and misrepresent my position to be "wanting to know more"? Oh, I have. Have you?Yes. Strangely appropriate that I read what I write, wouldn't you say? Krash offered all the answers or at least links to them..He provided responces, yes. He did not provide answers to satisfy my questions and he didn't provide links. all I was saying is quit the whining about incomplete products if you aren't willing to tap a finger to have them expanded out for you. Dexter_Blacktyde rather well laid out what should be expected of someone who finds a prduct wanting. It's not my job to hunt for further material when THE sourcebook is lacking regardless of how difficult it may be to do so. I never did whine about it. I merely provided a brief explanation behind the motivation for me changing the Realms like I did. People took issue with said explaination and I've provided responses. It's not as if I want my money back or am blaming it for ruining my game. Sorry you're an Elitest when it comes to the Realms, but that's your prerogative. Waterdeep is where it is because its located on elven ruins with a partially functioning mythal at a deepwater port that is between the whole of the north and everything else people don't want to walk overland from. I never said a city SHOULDN'T be there, but I am wholy unconvinced why such a city should be of the size and importance of Waterdeep. I'm equally unconvinced why the designers should get such an easy pass on a halfass product.
Krash 12-11-06, 06:10 PM	Let's just cut to the chase: Waterdeep and products about Waterdeep have been around longer than you have had an interest in the Realms. Much of the material you are complaining about not being included in the latest (of 4! And I dobn't really count City System) Waterdeep products has appeared in these earlier releases. These products are: FR1 Waterdeep and the North City of Splendors (2E) Volo's Guide to Waterdeep There is also tangential information in: The Ruins of Undermountain boxed sets (I & II) The 3 Dungeon Crawl Undermountain adventures: The Lost Level, Maddgoth's Castle and Stardock The designer of the latest Waterdeep product busted his butt to include a balance of old and new material to try and satisfy the oldtimers and those new to the Realms. He intentionally did not repeat basic material (ala thumb nail noble family write-ups - done twice so far!) that he thought true fans of the Realms would have the gumption to find for themselves. Something that is extremely cheap and simple to do if you have a computer and a credit card. Given that he was writing a 3E product, he adhered to 3E game mechanics for things like the organisation you describe. He did so because believe it or not, there are other gamers and DMs out there who want information of this kind. It may not suit you, but then again as you've already stated, you'd already made up your mind on Waterdeep. No TSR or WotC product has done Waterdeep proper justice. It deserves a 'Ptolus-like' treatment. I agree that CoS:W may not allow every player or DM to play Waterdeep to their own personal satisfaction 'right out of the box'. Given the history of products on this topic, it was never going to do that. For those with an understanding of the Realms and Waterdeep, the product is excellent because it expands on areas that have less attention in previous products (such as the temples and faiths in Waterdeep). Obviously, you're mileage has varied considerably. Considering that Waterdeep doesn't even feature in your campaign anymore, I'm struggling to understand what all the complaining is about. -- George Krashos
Red_Wizard 12-11-06, 06:18 PM	I have a bunch of 2e books and still refer back to them, but I'm not going to go hunting them down. I've downloaded a few of the older products only because there is no 3e product that addresses a particular region. (Like, KaraTur, Maztica, Kara-Tur, and the rest of Realms Space.) Trying to hunt down something that already has a 3e equivelent is too much work for my purposes. I did take another look at the product, though. The Griffon Calvery entry entry for. The entry takes up a little over half of a page. A good chunk of that is taken up by the stats for an average griffon calveryman. This is useless info to me. All I need to know about the average rider is that they are fighters around level 6. I'm a bloody DM. I can create my own stats. Stats are easy. It also wastes an entire line with "Authoritive Figure". I don't want to know who their Authoritive Figure is. I want to know who their leader is. In another book they summed it up as "Who Rules:" and "Who Really Rules:" That was good. This is not. I don't need to know what the organizations GP limit is. Their GP limit is whatever I say it should be. There is a name of a commander, but nothing about how he leads. How long has he been the leader? What problems has he faced in running the Griffon Calvery? Where is he trying to bring the institution in the upcoming year or so? The entry takes up a little over a page and a half and provides maybe an 8th of a page worth of useable information. The rest is fluff. That is a typical entry in the book. The chapter on nobles details four noble families. These just happen to be families that have been featured in novels. They give the names of 42 noble families and detail only four of them. That's ********. I want to know a bit about these families. If I wanted names I can easily generate some on my own or use a name generator. The Ravens Bluff book spent a couple paragrahs on some 30 or so families. Not exaustive detail but enough to get a sense of where the family is, where's its been, and an idea of where it's going. And that is really what makes the book suck. It tells you where Waterdeep IS. It doesn't give the trajectories of the people, players, and organizations of the place. It's too much fluff. Too much stats. Not enough soul. Not enough story. That help? Took another look at the 3E book, or the 2E stuff? I'm not saying your wrong for what you did, I was just trying to say, anything your interested in, in the furture, that you might not like the source for, look for the 2E one for more info. I understand what your getting at though, with what bothers you, but for me, I didn't mind anything that you hate, so it's really just a matter of taste :).
miscellany 12-11-06, 11:44 PM	I'm on the fence about this last bit. So that's where I'm going to stay. Nice synopsis Lovely Mr. George Soon To Be Married To Me Krashos <but you will have to change your last name to mine, it's a rule>
Dark Wizard 12-12-06, 12:36 AM	The Griffon Calvery entry entry for. The entry takes up a little over half of a page. A good chunk of that is taken up by the stats for an average griffon calveryman. This is useless info to me. All I need to know about the average rider is that they are fighters around level 6. I'm a bloody DM. I can create my own stats. Stats are easy. That's a complaint of 1/3 of D&D players/DMs, yet praised by another 1/3 and the rest remain neutral. It's not a problem with Waterdeep, it's your problem with the format 3e books use. It also wastes an entire line with "Authoritive Figure". I don't want to know who their Authoritive Figure is. I want to know who their leader is. Is there a difference? In another book they summed it up as "Who Rules:" and "Who Really Rules:" That was good. This is not. I love that format from the older books, but note that was used for cities mostly, hardly comparable to just one organization in a city. Even those "Who Rules" entries usually consisted of one line of information. The chapter on nobles details four noble families. These just happen to be families that have been featured in novels. They give the names of 42 noble families and detail only four of them. That's ********. I want to know a bit about these families. If I wanted names I can easily generate some on my own or use a name generator. It doesn't help WotC cut their books down to 160 pages from 190 (with a few more taken by ads sometimes). Then 3e has longer stats, even compared to fully written out 2e stats, the new books probably have more images too. The Ravens Bluff book spent a couple paragrahs on some 30 or so families. Not exaustive detail but enough to get a sense of where the family is, where's its been, and an idea of where it's going. And that is really what makes the book suck. It tells you where Waterdeep IS. It doesn't give the trajectories of the people, players, and organizations of the place. It's too much fluff. Too much stats. Not enough soul. Not enough story. That help? That does help, you've shown that the format of the 3e Waterdeep book puts you off when compared to a 2e format book, such as Raven's Bluff. If WotC puts out a 3e book on Raven's Bluff keeping with the trends of their other books, you would probably throw it at the nearest wall with hatred and disgust. Why do you think so many posters recommended you look at the 2e books on Waterdeep, because they're infinitely more comparable to other 2e sources like the Raven's Bluff book. Welcome to the We Hate 3e's Book Format club, now wait in line.
Krash 12-12-06, 04:59 AM	Nice synopsis Lovely Mr. George Soon To Be Married To Me Krashos <but you will have to change your last name to mine, it's a rule> George Miscellany. Hmm, it doesn't have much in the way of allure and romance. And I really wonder what my wife would have to say about it all. Then again, she's sacrificed plenty for the Realms already!:) -- George Krashos
Dexter_Blacktyde 12-12-06, 09:46 AM	The designer of the latest Waterdeep product busted his butt to include a balance of old and new material to try and satisfy the oldtimers and those new to the Realms. He intentionally did not repeat basic material (ala thumb nail noble family write-ups - done twice so far!) that he thought true fans of the Realms would have the gumption to find for themselves. Something that is extremely cheap and simple to do if you have a computer and a credit card. But what if you don't have a credit card? Anyway, although I understand that a product about something that's gotten several treatments in the past has to appeal to both new and old audiences, I don't think WotC should sell it as a must-have for fans old and new. Isn't it kind of sad that so many people refer someone who's not happy with the product to earlier supplements? Naturally WotC can't afford to write this on the backcover or in the announcements and advertisements: "We don't think a product on the scale the subject matter requires would be profitable - too much work for us for too little return. So we did a 157-page-edition in which we can only cover the basics. If you're new and don't have a problem with our wasting space with stats, new items, new feats, new prestige classes galore - hey, that's what non-FR-fans want, so that's why it's in here -, this might just be what you're looking for. Oldtimers, don't expect to find too much new material of great relevance. In fact you might want to stick to the old material because, let's face it, lore-wise and regarding the bang-for-your-buck ratio it's better than anything WotC has put out." But they could at least avoid phrases like "in-depth examination" etc. and make clear that the new Waterdeep supplement is just an update for those who feel they can't live without a Waterdeep book for the current edition. If they did this, authors wouldn't have to feel obligated to excuse certain shortcomings after release and point to out-of-print material not everyone has the means to acquire. "Cityscape was never supposed to be a part of the environment series." Whoops, Mat Smith reveals that the rest of WotC thinks different. "CoS could never cover the subject matter on the scale it deserves, how could you expect something like this?" Whoops, the ads say otherwise. In most of the cases it's not even the authors' fault, it's about the requirements of the beancounters, the marketing and the expectations of the customers, I guess. Now, even admitting compromises would hurt sales, but in this case WotC must not complain about complaints *shrug* He did so because believe it or not, there are other gamers and DMs out there who want information of this kind. It may not suit you, but then again as you've already stated, you'd already made up your mind on Waterdeep. Exactly, it's about expectations. But let me put this bluntly: I expect a Jerry Bruckheimer movie to suck big time, so usually I get what I expected. But that his movies never wanted to be logical, believable and not over the top and way out there shouldn't hinder me from saying they suck. All right, that's a harsh example, but what I'm saying is that if I expect a supplement to do what it promised to do - provide an in-depth examination of the subject -, and I feel that it only covers the basics, and I see that so much space is wasted on stuff I could come up with on the fly without even straining my fantasy, I should be allowed to voice my critique. Authors telling me that it never could or wanted to be what I think a good and useful supplement should be doesn't help. Disclaimer: This whole rant is absolutely theoretical. Personally I don't have a problem with CoS because I didn't even bother to buy it after running over its pages. I just assume I see where kelcimer is coming from because I have yet to find a WotC book I'd perceive as worth its price tag. As I said, more often than not it's not the fault of the authors. George Miscellany. Hmm, it doesn't have much in the way of allure and romance. And I really wonder what my wife would have to say about it all. Then again, she's sacrificed plenty for the Realms already!:) Excellent! :rofl: DB
kelcimer 12-12-06, 11:54 AM	Let's just cut to the chase: Waterdeep and products about Waterdeep have been around longer than you have had an interest in the Realms. So? [I double checked this. I've been a picking up Realms products since 1999 and those products you mentioned came out in 1987, 1992, and 1991. But my answer is still "So?"] The designer of the latest Waterdeep product busted his butt to include a balance of old and new material to try and satisfy the oldtimers and those new to the Realms. He intentionally did not repeat basic material (ala thumb nail noble family write-ups - done twice so far!) that he thought true fans of the Realms would have the gumption to find for themselves. What can I say? Sorry for not being a "true fan". Sorry for not being "pure" enough for you. But that does not change the fact that this was billed as THE Waterdeep product. Years have passed in the Realms. How have those years treated all those families? That is what I would consider core material that needs to be covered. Something that is extremely cheap and simple to do if you have a computer and a credit card. There you go again saying I should though good money after bad. hate to break it to you, but not all people who buy Realms products are hardcore about it. Complaining that I'm just not hardcore enough isn't an answer. Given that he was writing a 3E product, he adhered to 3E game mechanics for things like the organisation you describe. He did so because believe it or not, there are other gamers and DMs out there who want information of this kind. It may not suit you, but then again as you've already stated, you'd already made up your mind on Waterdeep. Meh. If a new Waterdeep product is put out that sorts out most of the problems then cool. I'm not likely to buy it, because my Realms moves foreward. Every game that that I've run has occured in the same Realms over these past 8 years, and Waterdeep is kinda blown up now. If it is a really awesome product and it sparked my imagination then it would not be inconceivable that a Waterdeep from a parallel Faerun though crazy wacky magical kablooyness gets trasported to my realms. That would be really interesting considering it would be next to an Orc nation. Meh. Official Waterdeep as it stands now is not something I want to use, but it's not to say it can't be made to not suck. Nor that I wouldn't find a way to use it if it strikes my fancy. Obviously, you're mileage has varied considerably. Considering that Waterdeep doesn't even feature in your campaign anymore, I'm struggling to understand what all the complaining is about. As I've stated previously I'm not complaining. I'm just discussing a product that moved me to change the Realms. Meh.
kelcimer 12-12-06, 12:10 PM	That's a complaint of 1/3 of D&D players/DMs, yet praised by another 1/3 and the rest remain neutral. It's not a problem with Waterdeep, it's your problem with the format 3e books use. Hmm. Didn't know about the exact breadown. Though I don't think it's true of all the 3e stuff. Most of the 3e books I've bought I've not had problems with. Is there a difference? Phrasing is important. "Leader" is more definite, more excitable then "Authoritive Figure". That does help, you've shown that the format of the 3e Waterdeep book puts you off when compared to a 2e format book, such as Raven's Bluff. If WotC puts out a 3e book on Raven's Bluff keeping with the trends of their other books, you would probably throw it at the nearest wall with hatred and disgust. Why do you think so many posters recommended you look at the 2e books on Waterdeep, because they're infinitely more comparable to other 2e sources like the Raven's Bluff book. I'm basically fine with the books that cover regions. I think it's a matter of books that focus on cities. A region book I imagine to be much easier because everything is spread out. A city should be so tightly wound with so much local politics that it makes it a completely different beast. It doesn't help WotC cut their books down to 160 pages from 190 (with a few more taken by ads sometimes). Then 3e has longer stats, even compared to fully written out 2e stats, the new books probably have more images too. I hadn't thought about quantity of images. There are more. I'd be happy to see soft cover books. Put those cost of the hardcovers into more pages. I'm in agreement with you on points, but I'm not so far as "hate 3e products".
kelcimer 12-12-06, 12:16 PM	Dexter_Blacktyde Very excellently put. Better then I've been doing, I think.
GothicDan 12-12-06, 12:51 PM	I have to say I'm on the fence here. I really, really do not like the format of 3E books, regardless of whether it's FR or core. I just like more lore, more stories, more history and culture, etc. Stats (other than important/useful magic items, new spells, and maybe a feat or two) I could do without. Full stat-blocks make me sick, because a DM is just going to change whatever they need to for an NPC in a specific encounter with the PCs on the fly, anyway. I actually feel very similar about Lords of Darkness. By far and large it was a rehashing of material printed in previous editions, with a bit of crunch thrown in, unnecessary stat-blocks, and little new lore or happenings. It's one of my least favorite books. But the fact that someone's asking for MORE realms LORE and then claiming he's not dedicated enough to the Realms to spend a little more money and/or time actually learning about that lore in greater depth, I think, is a bit contradictory. I didn't start looking into the Realms until about 6 or so years ago myself; I have no job (college is my job); I have no credit card. It seems a little naive to think that any book 3E publishes on FR would be the definitive ANYTHING. Their books simply do not have enough pages dedicated to lore. Let's say, roughly, 1/3 of CoS is taken up by crunch, filler, and art, which is pretty much standard in any 3E book regardless of content. Then let's say that another 1/3 is taken up by just getting the 'basics' of the city laid out (to even start to try to be 'definitive,' you need to start at the base and build up). That only leaves about 53 pages for actually expanding at all on the 'basics' of the city, its people, its population, and the like. And, given that the book caters to both new and old players, at best, that means the author has to split it in half between restating more in-depth older lore (which the newer players don't have access to) and genuine new news/lore. So, kelcimer, given WotC's guidelines (approximate crunch & art pages, having to present a firm foundation for new players, and trying to appeal to old players), what would you have done differently? An idea of approximate page number and content would be good to see. In other words: as some others have said, I think it's a problem with 3E sourcebooks in general. I was incredibly underwhelmed with Underdark, Unapproachable East (one of my FAVORITE areas), Mysteries of the Moonsea (closest to a 'regional' book we're likely to see), and ... (I could have sworn there was one more...) The only regional books I've really read and wholly enjoyed so far have been Serpent Kingdoms (which was equal parts culture/history as well as modern geography and the like) and Silver Marches. I have yet to look over CoS, myself. Outside of regional supplements... I probably hate Player's Guide to Faerun the most. Magic of Faerun was 3/5, Lords of Darkness 2/5, Champions of Ruin and Champions of Valor 3/5 (only due to certain blocks of lore that were snuck in), Power of Faerun 4/5, Lost Empires of Faerun 3.5/5 (it would be higher, but I really would have rather seen a lot of the areas covered given a more detailed treatment), Faiths and Pantheons 1/5 (Faiths and Avatars Lite)... And I haven't gotten Dragons of Faerun yet.
Faraer 12-12-06, 12:53 PM	That is what I would consider core material that needs to be covered.But no two people will agree on what most needs to be covered, or what must be spelled out and what left implicit. Though with this particular book and given the 3E format, I do think that a 192-page treatment would have been significantly better than the 160-page one, and I dare say Eric thought so too.
Manyfist 12-12-06, 02:56 PM	If I was to run a FR campaign I would probly be bombarded of my PCs wanting to play as Drizzit or party with him. So I would do these changes: - Drizzt, Wulfgar, Catti-Brie, and Bruenor were slaughtered. Artemis (Rogue 5/Fighter 2/Ranger 2/Assassin 9) killed Bruenor, then Wulfgar, then killed Catti-Brie. Then Drizzt called him out, Artemis then had a one on one fight with Drizzt, then Artemis used his Dimension Door + Greater Invis then killed Drizzt with his Death Attack. - Shar has killed Lolth, this is what happened in Lolths absents (in my campaign). Clerics of Lolth no longer have power, and a massive civil war among the Drow took place. Shar won Menzoberranzan, House Baenre is still #1 house, Triel Baenre and Quenthel Baenre died in the civil war. Gromphs rules Menzoberranzan and has become One of Shar's Chosen. Vhaeraun took control of the rest of the cities, yet he has sworn alliegence to Shar. Most Drow cities still have the Matriarchial society, yet Males don't suffer as much as they did under Lolths rule. - Mystra is dieing, since Shar has the Drow under her influence she commands her followers to kill Mystra followers. Since theres no longer the political backstabbing (or just a significant less of it) among the drow, they're able to kill with efficentcy. - Elminster and Five of the Seven Sisters are dead. Gromph killed the Five, and Elminster age started to catch up when Mystra's power started to fail. He eventually tried to become a n Arch Lich, yet died in the process. - Dregoths now have gender. They're able to reproduce yet a few Dregoths there are still haven't discovered each other in mass numbers. - Illithids have killed off all the Dwarves. They basically had a "racial craving" of Dwarf brains. So they ate the last of the Dwarves or made more Illithids out of them. - Out of fear of extinction, Dwarves started to breed with Humans. Muls (Dark Sun anyone?) are born, yet unlike Dark Sun they're not all sterile. With the last of the Dwarves gone, and the fact that Mul brains don't taste good they flurish in both Old Dwarven cities and Human cities. - Spelljamming is more common, yet still rare. Greyhawk, Dragonlance, and Eberron have little influence in FR, but they do have a little influence. Such as Kyrnn Minotaurs, Eberron Artificers, Warforged, and w/e from Greyhawk. yet they're are rare. - Matizca trade is blooming (still one way). Faerun is more like Europe or USA (today) anything can be found if you're willing to look for it. Mostly in port cities and countries near water. - Eberron can only be reached by Spelljamming, Athas (Dark Sun) can also be reached only through Jamming, yet its a one way trip. FR is still connected to the Great Wheel so you can still get to Grey Hawk and Dragon Lance through Sigil. Along with w/e homebrew world thats connected. :D
kelcimer 12-12-06, 03:01 PM	But the fact that someone's asking for MORE realms LORE and then claiming he's not dedicated enough to the Realms to spend a little more money and/or time actually learning about that lore in greater depth, I think, is a bit contradictory. Would you kindly point to any particular spot where I said I wanted more material on Waterdeep? I didn't. I picked up the book figuring it would be somewhat useful cause my players were on their way there. Having found nothing useful I wasn't about to search for more. I still had to have an adventure for my players. So I blew up Waterdeep. And that's one way that I changed the Realms. End of story. So, kelcimer, given WotC's guidelines (approximate crunch & art pages, having to present a firm foundation for new players, and trying to appeal to old players), what would you have done differently? An idea of approximate page number and content would be good to see. Since you're asking and wishes are fishes, I'd have said screw those guidelines and make a product as awesome as The City of Ravens Bluff. Don't see a point in saying anything further.
GothicDan 12-12-06, 03:11 PM	Would you kindly point to any particular spot where I said I wanted more material on Waterdeep? I didn't. I picked up the book figuring it would be somewhat useful cause my players were on their way there. Having found nothing useful I wasn't about to search for more. I still had to have an adventure for my players. So I blew up Waterdeep. And that's one way that I changed the Realms. End of story. Uh. You said, for example, that you would have rather had more lore concerning the noble families of Waterdeep, and the reasons why the city was founded where it was, and under what conditions it grew to such a metropolis.... That's asking for more material, isn't it? Or am I really mistaking you, here? Since you're asking and wishes are fishes, I'd have said screw those guidelines and make a product as awesome as The City of Ravens Bluff. Don't see a point in saying anything further. Works for me! I was just trying to get at the root of the problem. It seems to be that (for cities, at least) WotC's standard sourcebook guidelines aren't satisfying for you. Can't say I blame you...
Alediran 12-12-06, 03:17 PM	Manyfist, I'm sorry to say it, but most of the changes you made are so anti-canonical that they make me laugh, especially these: - Vhaeraun took control of the rest of the cities, yet he has sworn alliegence to Shar. Most Drow cities still have the Matriarchial society, yet Males don't suffer as much as they did under Lolths rule. Vhaeraun would ally with the Seldarine before giving even the smallest rat to Shar. - Mystra is dieing, since Shar has the Drow under her influence she commands her followers to kill Mystra followers. Since theres no longer the political backstabbing (or just a significant less of it) among the drow, they're able to kill with efficentcy. Mystra is less dependant of her followers, because every spell that is cast using the Weave gives her power. - Elminster and Five of the Seven Sisters are dead. Gromph killed the Five, and Elminster age started to catch up when Mystra's power started to fail. He eventually tried to become a n Arch Lich, yet died in the process. Gromph is a lowsy high teens/low twenties Diviner/Archmage (IIRC) ELC, while Mystra's Choser are well beyond ECL 30, he alone can't beat them - Dregoths now have gender. They're able to reproduce yet a few Dregoths there are still haven't discovered each other in mass numbers. That is not even possible, and is written Draegloth. - Illithids have killed off all the Dwarves. They basically had a "racial craving" of Dwarf brains. So they ate the last of the Dwarves or made more Illithids out of them. Dwarves make poor delicacies, Illithids search for brains with high levels of intelligence and arcane spellcasters/psionic manifesters are better than low int fighter dwarves. - Out of fear of extinction, Dwarves started to breed with Humans. Muls (Dark Sun anyone?) are born, yet unlike Dark Sun they're not all sterile. With the last of the Dwarves gone, and the fact that Mul brains don't taste good they flurish in both Old Dwarven cities and Human cities. There are already Half-Dwarves, the only difference with a pureblooded dwarf is that they are taller. What I see is an angsty drow fan who doesn't understands more than half of the setting and still cries because the drow where defeated in Siege From Darkness.
Manyfist 12-12-06, 03:45 PM	Manyfist, I'm sorry to say it, but most of the changes you made are so anti-canonical that they make me laugh, especially these: So? DM has the option to change anything he/she pleases. I choose to change these. Mystra is still dependent on her followers, and by killing off her followers that means killing off many Arcanist who don't use the weave. Gromph has grown in level since 3.0 imo. After defeating the Drowlich, and defeating both his sisters, and sworn sides to Sharn, would you stay the same level? Of course not. He also has the magical items of his house and that of the Drowlich. In a World with magic. Who says Dregoths can't have a gender? :confused: New Dregoths have gender, old don't. Also Half-Dwarves from my understanding don't exist, unless its in Dark Sun. Also I the DM has the right to change anything I want. I don't like Drow too much. I just like a Darker Setting. RAW doesn't mean jack unless some one is pointing a gun to your head telling you to play RAW. If I am an angsty drow fan in your eyes so be it. To me, your nothing but a name on a message board, in some part of the internet.
kelcimer 12-12-06, 03:58 PM	Uh. You said, for example, that you would have rather had more lore concerning the noble families of Waterdeep, and the reasons why the city was founded where it was, and under what conditions it grew to such a metropolis.... That's asking for more material, isn't it? Or am I really mistaking you, here? That was me saying what I expected to find in CoS, not that I would like to find it somewhere else.
Alediran 12-12-06, 04:00 PM	Go Play WoD then, FR is a world of ballance, where Good and Evil continualy dance, you forgett that AO wouldn't allow any side to become too much powerfull because it upsets ballance. Half-Dwarves exist in FR, they are tall Dwarves, most of them live in the Silver Marches. Gromph would have gained no more than 2 or 3 levels with all that happened during WotSQ, while Elminster and the Sisters are continualy making experience with all the things they do, don't forgett that Qilué, the youngest of the seven sisters is at least as Gromph in age, Elminster has lived for more than a thousand years and a young apprentice like Gromph could never defeat him. I would also like to know how a small group of drows could battle against hundreds of thousands of spellcasters, elves alone make more than half a million of Spellcasters of all kinds and levels. If Shar used the Drow in that unlikely fashion (that is if the Seldarine would allow Shar to destroy Lolth, they would very much preffer the Spider Queen rather than The Lady of Loss, and the Seldarine together would kick Shar's but into oblivion) then Mystra would never stand idle while her followers are beeing attacked (the world is not static, its a continual dance of action and reaction), that is why I find your changes to be completely ridiculous. P.D: For the second time, it's Draegloths
kelcimer 12-12-06, 04:24 PM	If I was to run a FR campaign I would probly be bombarded of my PCs wanting to play as Drizzit or party with him. So I would do these changes: - Drizzt, Wulfgar, Catti-Brie, and Bruenor were slaughtered. Artemis (Rogue 5/Fighter 2/Ranger 2/Assassin 9) killed Bruenor, then Wulfgar, then killed Catti-Brie. Then Drizzt called him out, Artemis then had a one on one fight with Drizzt, then Artemis used his Dimension Door + Greater Invis then killed Drizzt with his Death Attack. You know, in that situation you're the DM. So what if you have players who want to see those characters? Even if the PCs are determined to try and track these characters down doesn't mean they'll find them. Even if the PCs find those characters that doesn't mean that those characters have to like the players. Wouldn't it be funnier to let them find them and **** 'em off? If you really have players who would want to find 'em, if they kept getting killed off by 'em eventually they'll get the point. [Side note: I do have a player who loves Drizzt. The only question he had was where was Drizzt as the Many Arrows nation was forming. Between us we worked out a satisfactory explaination that did not involve Drizzt being dead.] In general, I find it better to have characters "over there" "doing something" instead of killing them, unless you have a compelling reason. You never know when you might just need them. I don't have much of a use for Elimister. I've nothing against him, just don't have a use for him. With the war between the Dales and Sembia and the ragged condition of the Harpers he'd surely involve himself...unless he happens to be "over there" doing his best to "keep Faerun being invaded by another world". yeah...Thats' the ticket!
Manyfist 12-12-06, 04:30 PM	Go Play WoD then, FR is a world of ballance, where Good and Evil continualy dance, you forgett that AO wouldn't allow any side to become too much powerfull because it upsets ballance. Good is still strong. Shar is just weaking Mysta not destroy her. I am not saying "No good in the world", you still have Paladins and what not. Just Mysta is becoming more weak which Shar wants so she can dominate over her. Half-Dwarves exist in FR, they are tall Dwarves, most of them live in the Silver Marches. Meh. I like Muls better. Gromph would have gained no more than 2 or 3 levels with all that happened during WotSQ, while Elminster and the Sisters are continualy making experience with all the things they do, don't forgett that Qilué, the youngest of the seven sisters is at least as Gromph in age, Elminster has lived for more than a thousand years and a young apprentice like Gromph could never defeat him. With the weave weaking Elminster is weakend. Also Gromph didn't kill Elminster, he died of a failed transformation to an Arch Lich. The Sisters are mostly all Sorcerers/Wizards, and with the Weave failing, they lost enough power to be killed by Gromph. I would also like to know how a small group of drows could battle against hundreds of thousands of spellcasters, elves alone make more than half a million of Spellcasters of all kinds and levels. If Shar used the Drow in that unlikely fashion (that is if the Seldarine would allow Shar to destroy Lolth, they would very much preffer the Spider Queen rather than The Lady of Loss, and the Seldarine together would kick Shar's but into oblivion) then Mystra would never stand idle while her followers are beeing attacked (the world is not static, its a continual dance of action and reaction), that is why I find your changes to be completely ridiculous. Assassins? Ever heard of them? The Dark Moon Sect (Shars Sorcerer Monks) now have many Drow joining them, so it could be possible to kill the weak arcanist off. Well I can't find Seldarine any where in the Faiths and Pantheons, Shar only controls one city directly and the city it self isn't that large anymore. So its mostly just underground stuff small groups of assassins killing off weak arcanists, they're slowly but surely weaking Mystra. For the second time, it's Draegloths Draegloths, got it. I don't pay much attention to spelling that much because I suck at it. Yet w/e. edit: Elminster is like the Superman of FR, I don't like that. Whats the point of the PCs if Elminster can just show up and fix everything. In fact if it wasn't for Ao, Elminster could just destroy all evil or most evil in the Faerun area.
GothicDan 12-12-06, 06:42 PM	That was me saying what I expected to find in CoS, not that I would like to find it somewhere else. Heh. I'm glad I lost any lofty expectations of anything printed by WotC (even if written by the best, original authors around) long ago. It's not a matter of the material being 'bad,' just not suiting my tastes. Lengthy, complex details of things (besides stat-blocks) seem a thing of the past.
GothicDan 12-12-06, 06:47 PM	Elminster is like the Superman of FR, I don't like that. Whats the point of the PCs if Elminster can just show up and fix everything. In fact if it wasn't for Ao, Elminster could just destroy all evil or most evil in the Faerun area. Any mid-teen level or higher, influential and experienced Wizard could do that, potentially. El differs from superman in too many ways to enumerate, and it makes me sad to see this statement at all. And I'm not a particularly big El fan, myself. I don't like seeing ANY NPC of ANY setting wrongfully maligned.
kelcimer 12-12-06, 07:20 PM	Elminster is like the Superman of FR, I don't like that. Whats the point of the PCs if Elminster can just show up and fix everything. In fact if it wasn't for Ao, Elminster could just destroy all evil or most evil in the Faerun area. Technically? Nothing. "...unless he happens to be "over there" doing his best to "keep Faerun being invaded by another world". yeah...Thats' the ticket!" If he's busy, he's busy. Simple as that.
Bonzai 12-12-06, 07:22 PM	Jeez guys, there is no need to get so protective over cannon here. This is a thread about how different DM's have changed the realms to fit their games. They are being kind enough to share it with us, and there is no need to criticize them for it. It's what this thread has asked for. Now I try to adhere to cannon whenever possible, but FR is a living and changing setting. Things happen, and in order to be consistant with the events that happen in your game, you need to some times ignore the cannon. Take for example in my game, I didn't know about the events that have happened recently in Myth Dranor. In my game setting, Myth Dranor had been taken back by humans and a few other races. The elves (particularly the sun elves who I generaly consider to be one the the most evily intolerant and ethnocentric races in faerun. Lol, at least the Drow are honest about it), have tried to lay claim to it as their birthright, and and have demanded sole ownership of the city. The human order that liberated the city knows well the legends and history of Myth Dranor, and are once again trying to create a great city where all races can live together in harmony. The human population is the largest, followed closely by elves, then dwarves, half elves,haflings, and a handfull of gnomes and half orcs. The humans who liberated it are trying to establish a council of the races, baced on population, to govern the city. The elves are being straight up uncooperative, and the tension is getting worse and worse. While the other races are happy with the system, the elven sentiment is that it is their city, and everyone else are unwelcome squaters. If I continue on with this campaign arc, there will soon be some minor skirmishes that threaten to start an all out war, with Eldreth Veluuthra doing it's best to instigate it. Now that completley flies in the face of cannon. However, the events in the game started before the new books came out. I am keeping my game as is. I haven't read the new books yet, and even if I did I would probably ignore them. Does that make me unfaithful to the realms? Maybe, but once anyone drifts from published campaigns and make their own, cannon goes out the door to some extent. Some just take it to bigger degrees than others.
Karsus the Mad 12-12-06, 07:37 PM	I think I'll grab my beer and sit down with El, Manshoon, and Tam. We have weekend drinking parties all the time. (And, being a part of the inner circle of archmages) We spend our time whistling at cute women and men (that still have flesh!) and tossing down rings of wizardry during a drunk induced game of Split Faerun A' Sunder. We got the idea of the card game from the elves.
Dark Wizard 12-12-06, 09:16 PM	Hmm. Didn't know about the exact breadown. Though I don't think it's true of all the 3e stuff. Most of the 3e books I've bought I've not had problems with. It's my breakdown, based on my observations, which could mean absolutely nothing and probably does. Also, one can change their stance for each and every product. It's just the way things work I guess. Phrasing is important. "Leader" is more definite, more excitable then "Authoritive Figure". I feel Authoritive Figure is a useful term, I see Leader as the old "Who Rules," and Authoritive Figure as "Who Really Rules," though maybe that's just me. I'm basically fine with the books that cover regions. I think it's a matter of books that focus on cities. A region book I imagine to be much easier because everything is spread out. A city should be so tightly wound with so much local politics that it makes it a completely different beast. Still doesn't address that you compared a 3e sourcebook on a city with a 2e sourcebook on another city. The books were written in different times, different market conditions, different editions, different authors, even different companies. Which isn't a problem if it didn't seem like you formed a large part of your opinion on Waterdeep based on this tenuous comparison. I hadn't thought about quantity of images. There are more. I'd be happy to see soft cover books. Put those cost of the hardcovers into more pages. I'm in agreement with you on points, but I'm not so far as "hate 3e products". Last I heard WotC puts out hardcover sourcebooks because hardcovers justify the prices they charge, while it doesn't raise their production costs versus softcovers too much, so they get to pocket more of the money.
Dark Wizard 12-12-06, 09:19 PM	In general, I find it better to have characters "over there" "doing something" instead of killing them, unless you have a compelling reason. You never know when you might just need them. I don't have much of a use for Elimister. I've nothing against him, just don't have a use for him. With the war between the Dales and Sembia and the ragged condition of the Harpers he'd surely involve himself...unless he happens to be "over there" doing his best to "keep Faerun being invaded by another world". yeah...Thats' the ticket! I like this method as well. Killing a major NPC often leads to more questions and dilemmas than just having them off somewhere else.
Dark Wizard 12-12-06, 09:29 PM	Though with this particular book and given the 3E format, I do think that a 192-page treatment would have been significantly better than the 160-page one, and I dare say Eric thought so too. I really do wish WotC made their sourcebooks 190 pages again, perhaps raise the books the extra few dollars it takes to print. We know they usually have the material already written for those 30 pages due to the web enhancements. One might think it's just 30 pages, but I feel that extra 30 pages really adds something significant to these books. The 30 pages often consists of the lore, the stories, the personalities. It comes close to many of the older large sourcebooks/boxed sets in page count. It feels like the book truly is worth the cover price. The thickness of 190 page books also seems less awkward, the 160 page books just look too thin for a hardcover (especially of that dimension). My final grip - I wish they would place ads as inserts in the books rather than take up one of the actual bound pages, but many companies did this, including TSR for some of the old 2e books.
kelcimer 12-12-06, 10:12 PM	Still doesn't address that you compared a 3e sourcebook on a city with a 2e sourcebook on another city. The books were written in different times, different market conditions, different editions, different authors, even different companies. Which isn't a problem if it didn't seem like you formed a large part of your opinion on Waterdeep based on this tenuous comparison. The largest differance that struck me was that Ravens Bluff had very many people contributing to the pile of information that was sifted by Greenwood down to what made it into the book. Waterdeep simply has not been worked with in that way. So I knew going in that it wasn't going to be like City of Ravens with all those wonderful details packed onto each page. The differance between 2e and 3e doesn't seem to me to be a big distinguishing point, aside from marking different eras of production qualities. This is campaign material we're talking about, not rules changes. While FR has changed hands I see a bunch of the same creators on books now as a decade ago, and even if none were around I don't think that a city book of the quality of Ravens Bluff is unapproachable by any other creative crew or company. I just expected it to be useful, and I only have City of Ravens Bluff for comparison. I didn't expect them to be at completely different ends of the spectrum. Meh.
Dark Wizard 12-12-06, 10:50 PM	The largest differance that struck me was that Ravens Bluff had very many people contributing to the pile of information that was sifted by Greenwood down to what made it into the book. Waterdeep simply has not been worked with in that way. So I knew going in that it wasn't going to be like City of Ravens with all those wonderful details packed onto each page. We don't know exactly how much detail exists for Waterdeep compared to Raven's Bluff. As FR's iconic city, Waterdeep possibly has more than Raven's Bluff or any of FR's cities. While Raven's Bluff technically had the entire RPGA behind it at some point, it's doubtful more than a small handful of people had any real say in the design (Ed Greenwood, Jean Rabe, Walt Baas & Kira Glass, RPGA Network members). Conversely, at various times Waterdeep had Ed Greenwood, Steven Schend and Eric Boyd as authors with possible contributions from other designers/authors (Jeff Grubb, Elaine Cunningham) and even from Ed's own game group when they played the setting in its formative years. The question then is how many people does it take to make a place feel alive and detailed? That question might even be irrelevant, if the above conditions occurred, we're looking at a similar number of contributors to each. The differance between 2e and 3e doesn't seem to me to be a big distinguishing point, aside from marking different eras of production qualities. This is campaign material we're talking about, not rules changes. While FR has changed hands I see a bunch of the same creators on books now as a decade ago, and even if none were around I don't think that a city book of the quality of Ravens Bluff is unapproachable by any other creative crew or company. Certainly the creative crew hasn't changed. Given the change they could and would produce books filled past the margins with information. However, the company has a lot of say in how things are presented, they could produce books like the 2e ones, but they chose this format for various reasons, 3e plays a factor in that. I just expected it to be useful, and I only have City of Ravens Bluff for comparison. I didn't expect them to be at completely different ends of the spectrum. Meh. Unfortunately, the differences at times do seem vast. Many fans of the older material feel the same way. You're certainly not alone in thinking that, but every one's mileage varies. I guess now I'm curious what you think of Waterdeep if after you've read some of the 2e material. It seems like it would address most of your questions, at least the ones you asked on this thread. Maybe you can chime in when you have. It would be a pity if a book's format/length turned you off to a decent city, after all, the lore/campaign material is the same, rules and formatting are secondary.
Manyfist 12-13-06, 01:02 AM	I like this method as well. Killing a major NPC often leads to more questions and dilemmas than just having them off somewhere else. Not really. If you say he's off over there. Then your PCs would be like. Whats he Doing? Can we still go see him? Tell us whats he fighting now? Where as if you kill them off, you can say So and So killed him. End of story, he's dead and time to move on. @Bonzai: TY. Canon can be changed and I honestly don't know why people get up tight like they have a stick just rammed up their arse when a DM changes canon.
Dark Wizard 12-13-06, 01:23 AM	Not really. If you say he's off over there. Then your PCs would be like. Whats he Doing? Can we still go see him? Tell us whats he fighting now? Where as if you kill them off, you can say So and So killed him. End of story, he's dead and time to move on. Who killed him? How did he die? How was he killed? Why was he killed? Did he have some contingencies, clones, phylactery, etc.? What was the killer's plan when he interrupted him? Or was it a preemptive strike? Are you sure he's dead? Did the killer really have the ability to kill him? Who helped kill him? What did the killer do afterwards now that he's dead and out of the way? What did the killer's allies do afterwards? Are the killer and his allies still allies now? What did his friends and allies do about this? Where were they? Where are they now? Did they hunt down the killer? Planning an elaborate counterstrike? Are his allies in hiding, licking their wounds, bidding their time? Can we look for the killer? Can we raise dead, resurrect, reincarnate, wish, miracle, beg for divine intervention, use this neat artifact we have saved up? Can we speak with the dead? Can we journey to the planes to speak with him directly? Is he in the realm of his deity? Did he become a divine champion or just a petitioner? What are his stats now? Is he fighting some extraplanar threats now? Can we look for his stuff, clean out his tower, stronghold, castle, guild, home, lair? Can we take over his operation? Can we find his friends and lend them a hand against the person who killed him? Who replaces him? What are the social, economic, religious, and/or political ramifications of his death? Of the killer's victory? These are serious questions too, I'm not being facetious. If the character is off somewhere doing something, then they're just doing what they normally do. If they're dead, it disrupts the status quo of the setting and a new balance must be reached. This is not necessarily a bad thing, as such situations can really involve the PCs in the grand shift, but such things have to be accounted for. Working in a good, meaningful death is not the same as just retconning them out.
Alediran 12-13-06, 08:30 AM	Good is still strong. Shar is just weaking Mysta not destroy her. I am not saying "No good in the world", you still have Paladins and what not. Just Mysta is becoming more weak which Shar wants so she can dominate over her. Then you know but little about the setting, if you knew what the realms really are then you would not think this, evil in FR is more like Vampire The Masquerade than Froddo vs Sauron. Meh. I like Muls better. But they don't exist in FR, they are part from other setting With the weave weaking Elminster is weakend. Also Gromph didn't kill Elminster, he died of a failed transformation to an Arch Lich. The Sisters are mostly all Sorcerers/Wizards, and with the Weave failing, they lost enough power to be killed by Gromph. The Weave doesn't weakens because Mystra looses DvR (it's like Abeir-Toril would reduce it's size just because Chauntea looses DvR), and just killing a couple low level arcanists won't even weaken the Lady of Mysteries who would figure out what is happening in mere seconds and would dispatch help and knowledge inmediately, she is very entrenched and is the god/godess with more allies than anyone: The Seldarine (elven pantheon), The Mordininsman (dwarven pantheon), the Hin deities (halfling pantheon), the Gnome pantheon, plus Selûne, Chauntea, Lathander, Sune, Oghma, Mielikki, Tyr, Torm, Illmater, Kelemvor, Shaundakul, Azuth, Savras, Velsharoon, Sharess, and would surely recive help from Bane, Mask (who already lended a hand to her during the Cyrinishad debacle) and other evil gods, while Shar only has Talona (and it's only a tenous grip). Assassins? Ever heard of them? The Dark Moon Sect (Shars Sorcerer Monks) now have many Drow joining them, so it could be possible to kill the weak arcanist off. I know very well about them, my brother could be considered a "Shar cultist" so I'm very informed about the Lady of Loss, there are too many arcanists in the world, plus Mystra's divine agents (rangers, paladins, clerics, etc), plus the Harpers, plus the Moonstars, plus the Chosens, plus incredible powerfull (and evil) guys like Larloch (an Ultralich of high thirties levels), Daurgoroth (a Dracolich Wizard/Archmage who also is the equivalent of an epic sorcerer due to his draconic age), Ioulaum, the creator of the Netherese Empire (the most powerfull empire of magic) who at this moment is many milleniums old and happens to be an elder brain lich with 41 caster levels and the equivalent of 20 psion levels, making him more than Challenge Rating 60), the Shrinshee, probably the eldest elf alive and Queen Amlauril, chosen of the Seldarine who can cast Elven High Magic without supporting casters, and many other world shaking powers both good and evil, lawfull and chaotic who prefer the Weave over the Shadow Weave and that would help Mystra. Well I can't find Seldarine any where in the Faiths and Pantheons, Shar only controls one city directly and the city it self isn't that large anymore. So its mostly just underground stuff small groups of assassins killing off weak arcanists, they're slowly but surely weaking Mystra. The Seldarine are the elven gods, Seldarine is translated to common to "Brotherhood of Brothers and Sisters of the Forest", you have some of the most powerfull and old gods on the Elven Pantheon, like Corellon Larethian who has a Divine Ranking of 19 and would never allow Shar to destroy Lolth, he preffers the old Spider Queen over the Lady of Loss. Your lack of knowledge about this word clearly shows that you know nothing about the Forgotten Realms (it's not surpising coming from an Eberron player), even the least knowledgeable people in the FR boards know about it. Killing low level arcanist won't affect Mystra at all, the Powers (Larloch, Ioulaum, Daurgoroth, etc) and the high teenies/low twenties are what give her more power, that is why anybody who copies the rune of an arcanist of 10th level or more to use it against it's owner suffers the Threefold Curse of Mystra, because Mystra benefits from Arcanist who create new magic, not 9th or lower arcanist who are but still learning much things about Magic. Draegloths, got it. I don't pay much attention to spelling that much because I suck at it. Yet w/e. That's no excuse, english is not even my mother language and I'm very carefull when I'm writing on english. Elminster is like the Superman of FR, I don't like that. Whats the point of the PCs if Elminster can just show up and fix everything. In fact if it wasn't for Ao, Elminster could just destroy all evil or most evil in the Faerun area. Elminster is not even on the top 10 most powerfull beeings of Toril, there are many who can wipe the floor with his ass, like the World Shaking Powers I already mentioned twice above. Read Elminster in Hell.
kelcimer 12-13-06, 11:06 AM	Not really. If you say he's off over there. Then your PCs would be like. Whats he Doing? Can we still go see him? Tell us whats he fighting now? That's the point where you ask them how their character would know. When player knowledge IS character knowledge it has this amazing abilty to simplify things.
kelcimer 12-13-06, 11:16 AM	While you basically got Manyfist on not being up on the realms as printed [and that's just going off the 3e Campaign Setting Book] I'll take issue with this. But they [Muls] don't exist in FR, they are part from other setting. Everything comes to the realms sooner or later. Even Muls. As far as the widespread human/dwarf action going on, well, if he wants to say that it starts in 1372 or in 1172 it's a "How he changed the Realms". Personally, I don't think it's in the character of the Dwarves to start a large scale program to mate with humans and I think the Thundering is much more compelling, but it would be his Faerun.
Alediran 12-13-06, 12:26 PM	While you basically got Manyfist on not being up on the realms as printed [and that's just going off the 3e Campaign Setting Book] I'll take issue with this. What I told him was the logic behind the things that he changed. Everything comes to the realms sooner or later. Even Muls. As far as the widespread human/dwarf action going on, well, if he wants to say that it starts in 1372 or in 1172 it's a "How he changed the Realms". Personally, I don't think it's in the character of the Dwarves to start a large scale program to mate with humans and I think the Thundering is much more compelling, but it would be his Faerun. The difference here is that there is already a Half-Dwarf in the Realms that ocupies the possition of Muls.
kelcimer 12-13-06, 12:39 PM	Meh. It's his perogative to change it out if he likes.
Alediran 12-13-06, 12:44 PM	Changes are good as they follow some logic and are consistent with current lore, if you deviate too much from that then you are no longer playing Forgotten Realms but a House-Made hybrid with some things from Forgotten Realms.
Dexter_Blacktyde 12-13-06, 01:29 PM	Changes are good as they follow some logic and are consistent with current lore... Says who? ... if you deviate too much from that then you are no longer playing Forgotten Realms but a House-Made hybrid with some things from Forgotten Realms. So be it. What's the bloody problem? Really, you come across like the FR police. DB
Alediran 12-13-06, 01:44 PM	It's simply the fact that if you make dramatic changes like those posted by Manyfist then you don't use the Forgotten Realms, therefore those changes aren't valid to be discused here, if you want to post them it should be in a thread named "Hombebrew world with Forgotten Realms parts"
Dexter_Blacktyde 12-13-06, 02:17 PM	Well, that's not a "fact", that's your opinion - to which you're entitled, of course. But there's no authority that decides which changes - changes are what we're talking about after all - are "valid" and which aren't. If Manyfist was to tell us that he implemented Darth Vader and the Teletubbies into his campaign, he'd still answer the OP's question: "How have you changed the Realms?" DB
Alediran 12-13-06, 02:23 PM	No, because they would not be the Realms anymore, there are some changes that follow logic and previously written lore that can be considered realmsian, and brute and unlogical changes (like those made by Manyfist, who also happens to know almost nothing about what the realms are or how they work, just check his profile, and wich coincidentaly the brutest changes are made by people like him) that make the played setting a world that has some things taken from Forgotten Realms
Dexter_Blacktyde 12-13-06, 02:30 PM	I'm really not following you. So you think the changes he made are crap. Fine, me too. But the OP's question wasn't "How have you changed the Realms in a Realmsian way?" So I don't see why he shouldn't be allowed to participate in this thread. To each his own *shrug* DB
Alediran 12-13-06, 02:49 PM	I think that "How have you changed the Realms in a Realmsian way?" was the OP's original intention when he made this thread.
Bonzai 12-13-06, 02:49 PM	It's simply the fact that if you make dramatic changes like those posted by Manyfist then you don't use the Forgotten Realms, therefore those changes aren't valid to be discused here, if you want to post them it should be in a thread named "Hombebrew world with Forgotten Realms parts" Again, the first time you play any campaign that wasn't an officially published campaign, you stray from cannon and change the FR setting. Heck, even playing your own characters on a published campaign can change the setting away from what is Cannon. At that point it ceases to be the FR as written and becomes your own version. It is only a matter of degrees. What the OP has asked, is how have you changed the realms? Manyfist and several others have answered. His changes are just as "valid" for discussion here as mine, or anyone elses. You don't like what he's done with his games? Thats great, do yours differently. He has no need to justify the changes to anyone, it's his game. I will wager that if a gaming group had started out with the first FR supplements, starting completly in accordance with cannon and lore, but kept the game world consistant with what happened in their campaigns, their Faerun would be a very different place from the one that is currently cannon. Heck, I see it in mine and I've only been DM'ing FR game setting off and on for a few years. The longer I continue to dm, and create my own campaigns the more my FR's will diverge from whats written. New products will contradict what I've done, and my players and I will continue to change it. I think thats exactly what the OP wanted to hear about.
Dexter_Blacktyde 12-13-06, 02:52 PM	Bonzai, I agree wholeheartedly. DB
Alediran 12-13-06, 03:01 PM	What the OP has asked, is how have you changed the realms? Manyfist and several others have answered. His changes are just as "valid" for discussion here as mine, or anyone elses. You don't like what he's done with his games? Thats great, do yours differently. He has no need to justify the changes to anyone, it's his game. The changes the OP told in his post where completely logical and possible in FR. Those made by Manyfists (and many of those made by you) are blatantly illogical and made without regard to existing lore, he aproached the setting with an Eberron player point of view. Again, the first time you play any campaign that wasn't an officially published campaign, you stray from cannon and change the FR setting. Heck, even playing your own characters on a published campaign can change the setting away from what is Cannon. At that point it ceases to be the FR as written and becomes your own version. It is only a matter of degrees. Not true, you can make a campaign that follows the lore to the letter (my own 3 years planned campaign involving a group of Tel'Quessir does that, chapters 3 & 4 are about what my players will do during The Last Mythal, it's planed in a way that their actions add to what happened during the Trilogy, but don't change what happened in the books, because it was what happened) and create characters that are true to the canon (read my favourite's character history, it's completely realmsian, I created his whole family by using preestablished lore from Evermeet: Island of the Elves and other sources about elves, and the characters my players will play are also written with canon lore on mind)
Dexter_Blacktyde 12-13-06, 03:09 PM	The changes the OP told in his post where completely logical and possible in FR. Those made by Manyfists (and many of those made by you) are blatantly illogical and made without regard to existing lore, he aproached the setting with an Eberron player point of view. Sheesh, could you possibly be more fanboyish? http://www.planetsmilies.com/smilies/happy/happy0009.gif Not true, you can make a campaign that follows the lore to the letter I'm sure Ed is very proud of you ;) DB
Alediran 12-13-06, 03:26 PM	Sheesh, could you possibly be more fanboyish? http://www.planetsmilies.com/smilies/happy/happy0009.gif I'm sure Ed is very proud of you ;) DB I'm just a padawan if you side me with people like Old Sage. Is not so much fanboyish as simple logical story development, both in Real Life and in FR things happen by an Action-Reaction sucession. Changes don't ocurr without a valid reason (gods would never sit idly while other gods destroy what they built)
Merlin_Durwood 12-13-06, 04:08 PM	Um...I'd like to know if it is ok to actually say what you did to change the Realms without being called an idiot or saying how stupid it was to make those changes? Don't mean to offend anyone, here. I just wanted to get involved in the topic.
Dark Wizard 12-13-06, 06:48 PM	They're just Muls, man, like having a different rules for an existing race. Not a big deal.
Bonzai 12-13-06, 07:21 PM	Not true, you can make a campaign that follows the lore to the letter (my own 3 years planned campaign involving a group of Tel'Quessir does that, chapters 3 & 4 are about what my players will do during The Last Mythal, it's planed in a way that their actions add to what happened during the Trilogy, but don't change what happened in the books, because it was what happened) and create characters that are true to the canon (read my favourite's character history, it's completely realmsian, I created his whole family by using preestablished lore from Evermeet: Island of the Elves and other sources about elves, and the characters my players will play are also written with canon lore on mind) Ok, so by that rational, in order to be a true "realmsian" campaign, you must closley follow existing published story arcs, and not allow the players to make any real impact upon the setting. If what I read there is correct, you have also put an iron grip on what your players can be, and they are more or less allowed to witness the events in the last mythal. Hey, if thats what you and your players enjoy, to each their own. Personally I don't write campaigns that way. I pick an area and adventure hooks that strick my fancy, and build on it. Like my example of the war coming in Narfell. Or perhaps I have an idea for a campaign, and come up with a place for it. Hence the town of Red Rock. Some times new material comes out, and I can incorporate it (like Obould's Horde), or some times it completletly contradicts what had already happened in game (Last Mythal). Some of my campaigns don't have lasting impressions on the realms, others do. When they do, the plays have accomplished something, and I keep their achievments consistant from adventure to adventure. In my games, the players accomplishments persist, from adventure to adventure. If I were to be a true "realmsian" I guess I would have to hand wave away everything the players had ever done each time new material was published. Sorry, not my cup of tea. I also admit that I don't own every piece of realms lore ever printed. There are decades of lore I have missed. I am not about to buy it all either. So I may have inadvertantly contradicted published material without knowing. Guess what? I have no problem with that. If it isn't in the campaign setting or on one of the 3.0/3.5 suppliments I own, I am willing to fill in the gaps if need be, and even embellish what was there. I guess we can agree to disagree. But I do have problems with you arbitrarily deciding that if some ones point of view differs from yours, it is some how invalid. This is a public forum, and an open question was raised, and people were invited to share their ideas. If you have problems with that, then I suggest you stick to blogs or some other format where people cannot question your ideas. I think I'll stop now before I get myself into trouble. LOL
MaskedOne 12-13-06, 07:25 PM	Um...I'd like to know if it is ok to actually say what you did to change the Realms without being called an idiot or saying how stupid it was to make those changes? Don't mean to offend anyone, here. I just wanted to get involved in the topic. Commentary on what you've done, good or ill will probably show up. It almost always does. Especially, if your changes hit certain contraversial subjects. Directly calling you an idiot, will hopefully be kept to a minimum simply because being mod-bait while more pleasant than being cop-bait is not typically wise and direct name-calling outside my little games with the Karsi and other running jokes that operate similarly can and in many cases is considered against the Code of Conduct. Peaceful, the FR boards are not.
Bonzai 12-13-06, 07:27 PM	Lol, couldn't help myself. From the very first post, from the OP. Okay, I know this may shock people, but I have added and subtracted a few things from the canon material as I saw fit. Nothing to inconceivable, but decidely different. I'm interested in hearing what other's have added or changed in the Realms. This isn't a thread to discuss the validity of things according to published material, but it interests me to see why you decided to change things as well. Emphasis mine.
Alediran 12-13-06, 08:07 PM	Ok, so by that rational, in order to be a true "realmsian" campaign, you must closley follow existing published story arcs, and not allow the players to make any real impact upon the setting. If what I read there is correct, you have also put an iron grip on what your players can be, and they are more or less allowed to witness the events in the last mythal. In chapter 3 & 4 they'll have a mission, very important to the future of Myth Drannor, and its written in a way that doesn't feel like being pushed on that direction, there is only what they have to finally achieve and how will they know it, the rest will be created by the players, that is the hardest way to write a campaign but it's the one with the best results, it helps when the DM has a character inside the party to move the story in a certain direction without forcing the players to go by a preestablished path. Hey, if thats what you and your players enjoy, to each their own. Personally I don't write campaigns that way. I pick an area and adventure hooks that strick my fancy, and build on it. Like my example of the war coming in Narfell. Or perhaps I have an idea for a campaign, and come up with a place for it. Hence the town of Red Rock. Some times new material comes out, and I can incorporate it (like Obould's Horde), or some times it completletly contradicts what had already happened in game (Last Mythal). Some of my campaigns don't have lasting impressions on the realms, others do. When they do, the plays have accomplished something, and I keep their achievments consistant from adventure to adventure. In my games, the players accomplishments persist, from adventure to adventure. If I were to be a true "realmsian" I guess I would have to hand wave away everything the players had ever done each time new material was published. Sorry, not my cup of tea. My style of creating adventures and campaigns is set the begining and the end, the rest of the story is left for the players to make with their actions, I always prepare a couple options that could happen, based on what little information they recive from me. Making a campaign canonical isn't as hard as it seems, the only thing that you need to keep in mind is to maintain the logic of the setting (drows killing low level arcane spellcasters won't weaken Mystra, the Elfblade accept only elves as wielders, etc), when you have doubts you post them here or in candlekeep and you'll recive good help I also admit that I don't own every piece of realms lore ever printed. There are decades of lore I have missed. I am not about to buy it all either. So I may have inadvertantly contradicted published material without knowing. Guess what? I have no problem with that. If it isn't in the campaign setting or on one of the 3.0/3.5 suppliments I own, I am willing to fill in the gaps if need be, and even embellish what was there. That is why you have this forum or Candlekeep, there are many people who can help you to find lore you don't have. I guess we can agree to disagree. But I do have problems with you arbitrarily deciding that if some ones point of view differs from yours, it is some how invalid. This is a public forum, and an open question was raised, and people were invited to share their ideas. If you have problems with that, then I suggest you stick to blogs or some other format where people cannot question your ideas. What I told Manyfist was the error on his version of the realms and how it's impossible that they happened. Gods will not stay still while their followers are being massacred, or why Elminster is not the uber power of Faerûn.
Merlin_Durwood 12-13-06, 08:22 PM	Commentary on what you've done, good or ill will probably show up. It almost always does. Especially, if your changes hit certain contraversial subjects. Directly calling you an idiot, will hopefully be kept to a minimum simply because being mod-bait while more pleasant than being cop-bait is not typically wise and direct name-calling outside my little games with the Karsi and other running jokes that operate similarly can and in many cases is considered against the Code of Conduct. Peaceful, the FR boards are not. True...I've been called worse for my ideas and whatnot. Thanks for the voice, MaskedOne. My main concern was not to offend anyone, honestly.
Merlin_Durwood 12-13-06, 08:54 PM	Ok, how have I changed the Realms, Sir_Wolfgar? I've...changed it quite a bit actually... For starters, in 1360, when Azoun IV battles Yamun Khahan, he too dies, leaving the throne empty. The Viser went and chose the General of the Purple Dragon Knights to fill in the vacancy. He went in turn and eventually passed it on to his son, who would eventually become King and is currently ruling as such. Second, Cyric began a plan to usurp the Zhentarim once more from Bane. So, he had gone to Manshoon and convinced the wizard to slay Fzoul all in the name of a coup. Manshoon was successful, but very badly injured. Bane, not happy with losing his Chosen, goes to a elven necromancer, who happens to be a devout worshipper of Bane and requests that he slay Manshoon. The Necromancer does so without question, especially in Manshoon's weakened state and takes control of the Zhentarim and becomes the next Chosen of Bane. During his years of study, he managed to find texts describing a way to neutralize any known caster - permanently. Damning parts of his soul, he made the elixir and used it in erasing nearly all the Chosen of Mystra, save Alustriel. He had lost a good number of resources and would have succeeded in removing all the Chosen, if his plans had not been foiled by a group of heroes. But during this time, he went on a genocidal bent; he wiped out half of his own people (reasons I won't go into here; if you want a bio, I'll provide one) and enslaved nearly every mining facility. He took Waterdeep as his own personal kingdom, puting Pigerion on trial for treason. The elf was stopped and banished for a good number of years, but that definately made Mystra create a few new Chosen. She limited herself to only five now (including Alustriel) and the texts describing the elixir were destroyed permanently. Other than that, things pretty much remain the same. And I already know, as I've seen, there are probably some out there who are going to immediately blast what I've done, but honestly, I don't care. I've been running the Realms for as long as I've been gaming...which is a very long time.
Sir_Wolfgar 12-13-06, 09:52 PM	Bonzai, I must thank you for defending the true purpose of this thread in my absence. I go away for a few days and come back to find it's become what it wasn't supposed to be, people fighting over stuff that's not real to begin with. I really have not changed the realms at all, compared to what others have done. I recall only killing off one main character, the Countess Mirabeta of Sembia, who tried to stagea coup in Sembia with the help of a necromancer, a golem-maker, and a powerful demon. Her coup was ended when she tried to take over the capital by force, thanks to an unlikely alliance among the nobles led by the players, one of whom was a senator's daughter. Also in this campaign, the drow in cormanther get beaten by the forces of Battledale and Sembia, but they were not wiped out or anything, they are just no longer much of a major threat.
miscellany 12-13-06, 11:11 PM	Um...I'd like to know if it is ok to actually say what you did to change the Realms without being called an idiot or saying how stupid it was to make those changes? :D :D :D Come on in Merlin!!!!!!:D :D :D I look forward to what you have to say even if I'm chained into this corner again and can't use my claws on the bad people that might harass us. I just want to say it is really important for us all as a family/community to band together to talk about what we do in the Realms. We should not be intimidated by what other people think does not make sense or what peeps steeped in lore think is or is not right. I do not think our sense of appreciation for what the Realms 'is' will fall to the sid just because we do this. :) Yay me punctuation fu! :)
Gellion 12-14-06, 09:00 AM	:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: to Bonzai and miscellany.:D
GothicDan 12-14-06, 07:05 PM	I've been very good on this thread. Usually I'd be one of the first ones to call someone an idiot. ;) Personally, what I tend to get a little upset about is when people make changes to something based on untrue beliefs about the nature of the topic at hand (in this case, canon; or scientifically, trying to state a hypothesis without accurate data) - and then act offended when someone tries to correct them on the 'truth' (canon) of the matter. Uninformed decisions or changes about anything are bad, in my opinion, but not necessarily worthy of scorn. We're ALL ignorant about a great many things. (And I always admit to being wrong when I truthfully feel I am wrong when presented with counter-information.) But it's when people act as if their decisions should remain completely devoid of reanalysis, even when presented with more knowledge on the subject (Bush administration - cough), that I get frustrated.
Weiser_Cain 12-14-06, 09:06 PM	Did I mention I made the Drow albinos?
Dark Wizard 12-14-06, 09:33 PM	That makes more sense to me. Also how Greenwood originally had his exiled subterranean evil elves.
miscellany 12-15-06, 02:55 AM	Personally, what I tend to get a little upset about is when people make changes to something based on untrue beliefs about the nature of the topic at hand (in this case, canon; or scientifically, trying to state a hypothesis without accurate data) - and then act offended when someone tries to correct them on the 'truth' (canon) of the matter. (1) Canon isn’t the truth. Far from it hey. (2) A lot of people don’t have a full breadth of total Realmslorish knowledge so they are perfectly within their right to form opinions based on what they know and use those as the basis for changes to their campaigns. If I say Waterdeep doesn’t make sense how it can stay fed so I changed things for it to make sense that’s fine and on topic. If the lore people respond well Waterdeep has Goldenfields or whatever that’s fine your helping me know more that I probably didn’t there are lots of older WDeep books right? But when it becomes correcting like ‘no you shouldn’t do that it’s wrong’ with attitude then there’s stepping over the line right there and it gets worse when lorepeople start taking apart what other people are doing. That is unwarranted criticism. Lore people are only as useful as their neutrally shared knowledge helps us all along making us more cognizant of the campaign world. Otherwise they are just annoying *******s. But it's when people act as if their decisions should remain completely devoid of reanalysis, even when presented with more knowledge on the subject (Bush administration - cough), that I get frustrated. Well sorry you’re just going to have to live with it. Remember what Sir Wolfgar said? This isn't a thread to discuss the validity of things according to published material Even more it is not about Forgotten Realms Lore but about people’s Forgotten Realms Campaigns that is more important. Remember that in this topic if nowhere else.
GothicDan 12-15-06, 08:47 PM	Miscellany, I apologize for trying to be diplomatic and non-conflictive. I'll make sure never to state my opinion again if it differs from your own, for fear of vehement, unnecessarily caps'ed criticisms. ;)
miscellany 12-15-06, 09:34 PM	Not capitalized silly I enlarged it to 7. No need to apologize you were just stealthing your opinions of others out anyway which just as bad. Bad bonobo!!!! And yes yes yes alright must say something nice fine OK I hope you have no insomnia and a nice weekend with no stress or whatever please do well on the test things.
selunatic2397 12-16-06, 12:32 AM	How have I changed the realms?.....Hmm, well I do run a non canon 1st edition campaign that has been running since about 1985... Lets start with what I've left out... The shadow weave...None of my players liked that and have never missed it. I have one player's retired male drow cleric of Selune running a serious agricultural kingdom where the realms have placed battledale straight through to scardale. In a fit of pique, I had nearly several oodles of orcs lay waste to entire regions...my players thought that was the must attend event of the late 90's. I have many adventures set in all those other continents that seem to have been left open for just such a use. I did have the events in Blackstaff take place...though I did replace the heroine with a descendant of the Banshee Agatha in the neverwinter woods. Many of my players retired characters were used in that undertaking and they really enjoyed the end result. I have raised Seluine to a greater goddess to even out the conflict with Shar. My players ended the dracorage and killed Sammaster more or less permanently...I haven't decided yet on his true fate... My players and i have been having fun in the Realms for almost 21 years...characters have risen to great heights and with divine favor have killed a god...others have managed to drown in a deep pit of whipped cream... But we had fun doing so...and I give my thanks to Ed Greenwood for letting us play in his backyard. :D We play this game to have fun...don't get so hung up on canon that you forget that. It's your campaign! If you don't like it...dont put it in. :)
GothicDan 12-16-06, 01:58 AM	Of course, some of us think that certain aspects of canon ARE fun. I sure do. I REALLY like trying to work with the canon to create things, rather than ignoring it to create things. It's... Harder. And more satisfying - to me, at least. Sort of like the difference between blank verse poetry and actual metrical poetry. As my Latin Poetry teacher put it, "Poetry that has strayed too far from music isn't poetry at all." (By the Latin definition, at least.) Not capitalized silly I enlarged it to 7. No need to apologize you were just stealthing your opinions of others out anyway which just as bad. I have no clue what you mean; I've never seen 'stealth' turned into a gerund. I made very obvious what my opinion, in general, was, if you were in fact inferring that I was being indirect in some way. Obviously, your opinion differs. That's cool, because it doesn't affect me, and nor does mine affect you.
miscellany 12-16-06, 03:14 AM	Props to selunatic2397 for not letting the man <monkey> get you down! See old schoolers like selunatic2397 and my DM know how its done they know FUN FIRST! Use the campaign setting to make play fun don't let the setting lead you by the nose. I have no clue what you mean; I've never seen 'stealth' turned into a gerund. It's OK you can poke fun at me try to pretend to be all smart but at the end of the day we're busy playing the game you're busy crying about how hard life is when people make decisions with limited information so they break 'your' rules and they dare to tell you to **** off in so many words because they don't appreciate you wipping out your Canon and peeing lore on their legs. It's nice that you have learned to share your opinion whenever you feel like it I hope momma sprung for manners classes to help teach you when to keep it to yourself! If not tell her to right me a check since I'm obviously having to do her job for her and this kind of teaching don't come cheap.
GothicDan 12-16-06, 03:20 AM	Miscellany, you truly thrive on being personally conflictive and insulting, don't you? And you were exasperated over males' supposed urinating contests... And my mother actually promoted me to say whatever I wanted, provided it was not said in a rude manner. Higher education did, too. In fact, my college has 2 entire mandatory semester-long courses ("The Common Intellectual Experience") in which we're -forced- to speak our opinions as blatantly as possible without becoming personally offended to the point of lashing out at others. I say what I think, with proper decorum, and I expect others to do the same for me. If I'm wrong, I want someone to tell me why and how I'm wrong, and I'll be fine with that. If someone else's opinion deviates from mine, we'll debate it heatedly for an hour or so, and then usually go on with our lives. I was unaware that stating one's opinion was such a vitriolic offense to you. I mean, what really makes it so bad for me to state my opinion about something, and then for you to come in blasting your guns about how 'wrong' my opinion is because it in some way isn't as liberal as yours? For all you claim to hate complainers and pedants, you're shaping up to be a pretty effective one. Or maybe you just like to personally hunt me down on every thread we're both engaged in and antagonize me for no reason other than fun. That's also a possibility.
miscellany 12-16-06, 03:56 AM	I think you went to college to learn how to dodge someone else's main point. For someone who was taught supposedly proper decorum I find it hard to believe you can't figure out for this topic its not welcome behaviour to nail people to the wall for forming opinions that aren't technically in line with canon lore. I DON'T CARE how you run your games or do your thing. Just don't expect to be able to treat this topic like a shooting gallery where our campaign ideas are the ducks you take aim at with your Realms Canon air gun. Just because you can pick out statements in this thread that conflict with canon does not give you a pass to disrupt it we on the other hand are well within our right to tell you to stop it jerk we're hear to share not to be forced to pass muster with you or other lore people. That's all see simple.
GothicDan 12-16-06, 04:04 AM	I think you went to college to learn how to dodge someone else's main point. I'm going to college to learn physics, mathematics, and Latin. ;) For someone who was taught supposedly proper decorum I find it hard to believe you can't figure out for this topic its not welcome behaviour to nail people to the wall for forming opinions that aren't technically in line with canon lore. Oddly enough, I don't remember doing that. I DON'T CARE how you run your games or do your thing. Then why do you get so upset when I say why I do my thing? Just don't expect to be able to treat this topic like a shooting gallery where our campaign ideas are the ducks you take aim at with your Realms Canon air gun. Again, I don't recall doing that. Just because you can pick out statements in this thread that conflict with canon does not give you a pass to disrupt it we on the other hand are well within our right to tell you to stop it jerk we're hear to share not to be forced to pass muster with you or other lore people. ... Again, I didn't do that. I may have inserted a note here or there as to a bit of lore, but I don't remember decrying anyone's changes from any sort of a supposed moral standpoint. That's all see simple. Actually, it's not. Your lines of logic seem to meander all over the place, to me. I simply made a completely generic statement about why I did or did not make changes, and what I felt about others doing the same. I was not singling out any specific poster, by name or idea, and I was trying very hard to be diplomatic (in saying that I completely understand the fact that people make changes in ignorance at times, and that's not always their fault at all, and they shouldn't be persecuted for it). What happened to the "Learn the rules before you ignore them" idea you espoused? Rules are no more concrete than lore to a DM. That's all I was reiterating - a mindset that you stated in a previous thread, which I felt was close to my own. So much for bonding. To again quote the OP: This isn't a thread to discuss the validity of things according to published material, but it interests me to see why you decided to change things as well. So the 'why' is fully up to discussion, and that's what many have been discussing, believe it or not. "Why do you feel that you had to change Waterdeep as it's been depicted?" Well, if someone answers such a question referencing facts about Waterdeep which others don't see, then discussions regarding lore (as well as personal preference) are going to arise. Expanding on the above sample topic: "Why did you change Waterdeep's population?" "Because I didn't understand how such a dense population could exist in the area." "Well, there's Goldenfields, a huge agricultural area tended by the clergy of Chauntea, which uses magic to make more abundant the crops of the land, providing Waterdeep with food enough to sustain a larger population than was normal for a typical medieval city." Would seeing that really annoy you all that much? And last... Really, do you ever feel bad throwing insults and curses at someone who's trying to have a logical, civil conversation at you? Because if so, I am theoretically well within my rights to tell you to quit it, too. But, really, it seems like your thought patterns and emotions are so alien to my own that no matter what I try to do, you're going to basically sum it up by typing IN CAPS at me, slinging insults, being presumptuous, and holier-than-thou in your attempts to villify me as some terrible canon tyrant (which is amusing, considering I ignore canon from before I even knew what the FR setting was). If you want to continue speaking (not that I think it will do much good; you don't seem to either understand or care what I'm trying to communicate), PM me. I've had my fare share of taking up nontopical space on this thread. ... Also, it's bedtime.
MerrikCale 12-16-06, 09:39 AM	I think you went to college to learn how to dodge someone else's main point. . Thats why I went to law school
miscellany 12-16-06, 02:00 PM	! Law school sounds hard to me I hope you graduated/passed the bar or whatever. Do you use lawschool stuff when you game like making hard to deal with NPCs that your player friends have to roleplay hard to get them to agree to what your friends want? I bet you could really make fun role playing encounters with that knwledge. Break the 4th wall ala Magnum PI.... (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnum_PI)too old for me thank you.
Red_Wizard 12-16-06, 04:54 PM	I'm going to have to agree with GD here. Not because i'm saying anyone is saying one thing or another, cause frankly I have no need to do more than skim through any posts that aren't telling me what has been changed in varied campaigns, but because I see nothing wrong with anything he has stated thus far. This being said, the reason i'm responding to such post's, is i'm of like mind of those who are getting yelled at for asking "why". When a thread is started in which someone asks what people have changed with a large, and thuroughly developed setting, others who are much more canon oriented (Or fully canon based as I am), become curious when glaring changes are made such as the destruction of an entire city. If all people wanted was a thread without discussion, where they could post what they changed, and never say anything again, save the minor "That's nice", then people of that mind are definatly in the wrong place. I enjoy seeing why a thing has been changed, and have indeed been interested by a number of things that have turned up in this thread, that make an interesting sensical difference to canon. What I don't like seeing is "I did it cause it didn't make sence to me". Something not making sence is a lowsy reason to obliterate something entirely. And, if what i know, can help to save major changes like that from someones campaign, i'll most definatly be her to state facts. However, should a person have at least skimmed all relative material, and simply not like something, then by all means as DM do what you will. That doesn't mean I still won't be curious as to why, only that I won't offer to help them expand their knowledge on an area, they have decided to hate, still after knowing most of the material on it.
miscellany 12-16-06, 05:12 PM	What I don't like seeing is "I did it cause it didn't make sence to me". Something not making sence is a lowsy reason to obliterate something entirely. It's a PERFECT reason to get rid of something. If it doesn't work I don't like it BAM it's gone if that's what I want for my campaign. Now if you can come to me and say Hey you shouldn't rule that Waterdeep is a great mass of starving people slowly dieing under its own weight there is X, Y and Z places that feed the city then I'll be like Cool thanks for the heads up I didn't know that maybe I change things maybe I don't. But if you tell me I can't do this in my campaign or what I'm doing is wrong in my campaign because of some lore you know that I don't.....well then we have a problem and I'm going to have to kick your ass <metaphorically>. There is nothing wrong with sharing lore shining it on to people that might not know it cause it makes us all smarter about the world. There is EVERYTHING wrong with pushing lore down other people's throats. I don't for a second think GD is sincere in wanting to share lore. His self appointed job around here is to be the annoying hypocritcal corrector. The thing is these big changes are glaring errors to you. You lore people always forget someone's changes in their campaign isn't about you or the setting. It's about their campaign. That campaign is more important than your love for the setting and it always will be. The fact that you guys can't quite mask your distaste for these changes doesn't alleviate you from your responsiblity to respect those changes. Man up and show the respect or back up and walk away.
Karsus the Mad 12-16-06, 05:50 PM	It's a matter of how one shares their opinion as much as what their opinion is. Can we please get on topic? This is an interesting thread and I don't know about the rest of you, but I'd rather read about how people have changed the Realms in their games (because it's interesting and...is the topic) and not veiled arrogance towards other's ideas or shoddy grammar or bickering or name calling or other forms of childish behavior or smart-arse word play. Peeeeeeeeeez? Purdy peeeez?:cloud9:
Red_Wizard 12-16-06, 07:51 PM	It's a PERFECT reason to get rid of something. If it doesn't work I don't like it BAM it's gone if that's what I want for my campaign. Now if you can come to me and say Hey you shouldn't rule that Waterdeep is a great mass of starving people slowly dieing under its own weight there is X, Y and Z places that feed the city then I'll be like Cool thanks for the heads up I didn't know that maybe I change things maybe I don't. But if you tell me I can't do this in my campaign or what I'm doing is wrong in my campaign because of some lore you know that I don't.....well then we have a problem and I'm going to have to kick your ass <metaphorically>. There is nothing wrong with sharing lore shining it on to people that might not know it cause it makes us all smarter about the world. There is EVERYTHING wrong with pushing lore down other people's throats. I don't for a second think GD is sincere in wanting to share lore. His self appointed job around here is to be the annoying hypocritcal corrector. The thing is these big changes are glaring errors to you. You lore people always forget someone's changes in their campaign isn't about you or the setting. It's about their campaign. That campaign is more important than your love for the setting and it always will be. The fact that you guys can't quite mask your distaste for these changes doesn't alleviate you from your responsiblity to respect those changes. Man up and show the respect or back up and walk away. I do respect how campaigns are changed, and have played before in the realms, where much of canon was thrown to the way side. This is easy enough to balance out for me by having a canon enforced character. So your suggestion that these are glaring errors to "people like me" is rediculous. Also, i'm not suggesting any of the other campaigns are about me. What your missing is that descisions formed out of ignorance, don't make a game better, or a good DM. So when someone say's something that seems so out of place, and without obvious base, or final reason, then there are those who become curious and ask "why". Now in the case being discussed, the person who had made the changes, did so because he was dissapointed with one source of the many he didn't look into. Now he is fine with his descision, and at least I am well aware that he has no interest in reading the other sources, and that is fine. That being said, I am still of the opinion he is stubborn, and that situations like this in another game could be avoided so long as the person is willing to review all the materials. Now argue this as you will, but if someone say's they found something interesting, and then refuse to look into more information on the matter, they are bound to get flack from those willing to suggest other things that could have been done less drastically. Again, i'm not saying there is anything wrong with his descision, I just think many would have been more accepting of an answer like "Because", than one that suggests ignorance to the information available, and the lack of effort made too at least skim all sources.
miscellany 12-16-06, 07:57 PM	Red Wizard you have given me much to burn calories in my brain about. I will think now.
Sir_Wolfgar 12-17-06, 10:57 PM	So, anybody kill off any main characters?
Dark Wizard 12-17-06, 11:11 PM	You mean the PCs? ;)
Weiser_Cain 12-18-06, 12:38 AM	If you mean NPC's usually if I don't like the character and it can be done without totaly breaking the game we just pretend he doesn't exist. Though I am involved in a game where we plan to kill elminster.
Alediran 12-18-06, 08:45 AM	The closest thing that would be to kill a mayor character in my campaign is the disconection of Lolth from Realmspace at the end of the campaign (2 years from now)
Bonzai 12-18-06, 03:10 PM	I'll just say one more thing, and then get back on topic. I have no problems with people asking questions, wanting clarification, or more detail. What I do have a problem with is when people say another persons view points or ideas are invalid. This is a thread about how you have changed the realms. It makes no sense to attack people for doing just that. While offering them information that they might have missed could be helpful for a future campaign, by this point it doesn't matter. They have already made the changes. Take this for example. I have gotten to thinking about introducing Hexblades as part of a holy order of Beshaba, sort of like her equivalent of Paladins. I do a little more research, and I read about the Black Fingers. I can find almost no info about them, other than that they are Male and are either fighters, rogues, or assasins. Sounds like a great group to put the hexblades into. Since I can find almost no information, I will probably make up a lot of the details about them. Create the organizational structure, dogma, goals, members, etc... And turn them into a nice, scary organization for my PC's to get tangled up with. So lets say I do this, and enter in my version of the Black Fingers into my campaign world. Then a few months latter, they come out with a novel that features them. Odds are the cannon version will be completely different from what I came up with. Or perhaps there was a nice 1st edition write up that I have no clue about. I know that if I shared my version of this organization, I wouldn't appreciate being attacked, or lectured about not following established cannon. There was no cannon to be had at the time I introduced them, and if there was anything relased after the fact, I'll incorporate what I can, but if it conflicts with what I have in my campaign, I am going with what I already used.
Alediran 12-18-06, 03:48 PM	The difference is that you did research them before making changes, that change is completely logical and it's one I could use if Beshaba was of importance in my campaign.
Red_Wizard 12-19-06, 11:43 AM	Also, I have not seen any attacks so far. I have seen people on both sides take things in wrong context and become angry with one another, but there have been no attacks of changes. (Least not by my memory of things.)
Merlin_Durwood 12-19-06, 05:35 PM	So, anybody kill off any main characters? Yes Sir_Wolfgar; I did.
Thaingrim 12-19-06, 08:00 PM	well i've been DMing for the same group for about 5-6 years, and our major change is the emergence (player triggered) of an extra coty state in the silver marches ( at the very estern end)... Basicaly the first band of adventurers was pretty much entirely made up of spellcasters ( and their bodygards for some) and founded an academy...so basicaly for 5 years we've played political games to get into the silver marches properly, alterning some purely RP/diplomacy campains with more hack & slash action from a military campain ( mainly exploiting the armed conflicts with orcs and such to avoid getting wiped by the silver legion, ans useing the ocasion to do a bit of military muscle rolling).... the academy popped to life quickly , being funded massively bya group of epic lvl adventurers of considerable wealth, ans well a strongly fortified city quickly groing as being apromissed land since the number of high lvl mages and priest ( of all faith even though shar as infected the town quite badly ) and lots of pariahs settle in for a second chance. Magic and art are very proned and well funded ( also due to triving economy based on mercantile activity with the dales and other destinations atainable using the black road and also with underdark settlements) wich gives the city the aura of a freethinking place....but really the whole thing is rotten from the inside since one of the members of the original band ( now archmage supreme of the academy and ruler of Arnoth) discovered the shadoweave along the way and started spreading shar's faith along the hopeless who came seeing a new life....
Merlin_Durwood 12-19-06, 09:30 PM	Ooooo! Neat, Thaingrim! Unfortunately, if I tried to do that kind of game, where it was mostly politics, I'd have one member of the table make it an issue for everyone else. He's a purely hack 'n' slash, kill the creature - get the loot/XP kind of player.
Thaingrim 12-20-06, 01:29 PM	guess i have to than our last dm since he's the one who sorta exorcised pure hack 'n' slach.... even though its still quite perfectible :p
Weiser_Cain 12-21-06, 03:04 AM	I'm currently fudging with the concept of vampirism for dnd in general, for that last FR game I'm involved with.
selunatic2397 12-22-06, 10:35 PM	I have been putting politics into my game by introducing the Faerie Courts. So far I have one PC bring his long forgotten bloodline back into the Seelie Court, and then promptly try to found a more neutral good kind of middle of the road court between the Seelie and the Unseelie. Regarding Lolth, I really liked keeping her at the level of the other demon princes...and since my merry band of PC's were never on the drow fan wagon... Plus, we had a round table discussion about that lich who got Talos to sponser him as a god then switch to Mystra [and now play up to Shar????] They just asked me to make him "Go Away!" So, we had an epic battle in the abyss where they got to see Lolth lose to Orcus...who ate her, gluttony IS a deadly sin;) . I let them party a bit before the worship of her faithful brought her back...as a demigod! Meanwhile I had Selvatarm battle the beast cult spider god for Lolth's spider portfolio...they have no idea who got it and thats just how I like it! :D The aforementioned lich dude whose name I refuse to type...one of my players mentioned that he was kissing up to Shar...I have no source to support his accusation [does anyone have any idea what he was talking about?] I made a DM decision and stated that since the new Mystra would eventually shift to a more neutral stance, as magic is kinda neutral as anyone can cast a fireball spell regardless of their alignment... I could see no need for a god of necromancy and/or liches and stated that Mystra was in charge of that college of magic too...the aforementioned lich dude and momentary canon god got subjected to an edit and faded out. And there was much rejoicing among my Mystra worshipping players...although they did not eat Sir Robin's minstrel!
Manyfist 12-23-06, 12:18 AM	Then you know but little about the setting, if you knew what the realms really are then you would not think this, evil in FR is more like Vampire The Masquerade than Froddo vs Sauron. I the DM, can and will change things I don't like. If I want to make Frodo V. Sauron Evil in the Realm I will. Like it or not, I am posting it here because the thread said How have you changed the Realms? I changed it, to fit me. Got a problem with that? Fine, as long you're not with me when I DM this (If) I don't care. Why argue for canon that is up for DM [, Mask (who already lended a hand to her during the Cyrinishad debacle) and other evil gods, while Shar only has Talona (and it's only a tenous grip). [/QUOTE] What if I made Mystra more dependent on the Weave and Her followers? I also would like the notion of every diety is out for him/her self Gods aren't perfect. I like the notion of FR dieties being more of a Greek Gods, they may be the same alignment. Yet they sure enough won't be bashing through an opponet to save one of their own. Gods are independent of the Weave, why should they care if the Weave gets destroyed? Unless you're a god of Magic, or Mages, then you have nothing to loose (except for a few followers). Lady of Loss hasn't really assulted Mystra directly, just indirectly. I know very well about them, my brother could be considered a "Shar cultist" so I'm very informed about the Lady of Loss, there are too many arcanists in the world, plus Mystra's divine agents (rangers, paladins, clerics, etc), plus the Harpers, plus the Moonstars, plus the Chosens, plus incredible powerfull (and evil) guys like Larloch (an Ultralich of high thirties levels), Daurgoroth (a Dracolich Wizard/Archmage who also is the equivalent of an epic sorcerer due to his draconic age), Ioulaum, the creator of the Netherese Empire (the most powerfull empire of magic) who at this moment is many milleniums old and happens to be an elder brain lich with 41 caster levels and the equivalent of 20 psion levels, making him more than Challenge Rating 60), the Shrinshee, probably the eldest elf alive and Queen Amlauril, chosen of the Seldarine who can cast Elven High Magic without supporting casters, and many other world shaking powers both good and evil, lawfull and chaotic who prefer the Weave over the Shadow Weave and that would help Mystra. The Shadow Weave is no Diffrent than the Weave. In the gaps of the Weave theres the Shadow Weave. It wouldn't be too far of a stretch for evil Liches to up and join the Shadow Weave. They still have power, they're no less powerful. Again this is a canon I changed. The powers of evil see more benifit having a Strong weave v. a Weak one. I don't care if lore says its this way, I am changing it because I want to. Don't like it tough. The Seldarine are the elven gods, Seldarine is translated to common to "Brotherhood of Brothers and Sisters of the Forest", you have some of the most powerfull and old gods on the Elven Pantheon, like Corellon Larethian who has a Divine Ranking of 19 and would never allow Shar to destroy Lolth, he preffers the old Spider Queen over the Lady of Loss. Your lack of knowledge about this word clearly shows that you know nothing about the Forgotten Realms (it's not surpising coming from an Eberron player), even the least knowledgeable people in the FR boards know about it. Oh excuse me Mr. FR canon police. How would they perfer the Spider Queen? Elf love? Lolth is a relic of the past, and as I said before the gods really only care for them selves, in my FR. Allegences are casual (I've done away with the DR thing, Gods are gods, not ment to be stated out). They'res Demi-Gods, Lesser Gods, Intermidate Gods, Greater Gods, and an Over god. Too many gods. They're simply Demis, Gods, and the Ao. I changed canon. Omg... I changed it! Gasp!. Killing low level arcanist won't affect Mystra at all, the Powers (Larloch, Ioulaum, Daurgoroth, etc) and the high teenies/low twenties are what give her more power, that is why anybody who copies the rune of an arcanist of 10th level or more to use it against it's owner suffers the Threefold Curse of Mystra, because Mystra benefits from Arcanist who create new magic, not 9th or lower arcanist who are but still learning much things about Magic. Thats fine for canon. Yet she's dependent on the Weave. She is the Weave, as much as Shar is the Shadow weave. Weave and Mystra are one. Killing off parts of her, hurts her. Dark Moon sect has now several people imported from diffrent planes (all whom really don't care about Primies gods) specialized in neutralizing spellcasters. Alot of them aren't even Mortal, alot are Demons and Devils who work together only in name. A few class levels and they're good to go v. majority of spellcasters. Note: Changed canon doesn't not have to follow logic of canon. That's no excuse, english is not even my mother language and I'm very carefull when I'm writing on english. English, careful, writting. Other than that its ok. Elminster is not even on the top 10 most powerfull beeings of Toril, there are many who can wipe the floor with his ass, like the World Shaking Powers I already mentioned twice above. Read Elminster in Hell. Great! Even more reason to kill him off. Superman wasn't the most powerful thing on Earth, Lex knew his powers and how to combat them. I would say Lex is most powerful, and Superman has been killed (many times). So more reason to kill him. PS: I know this post is old. Since I frankly don't care about FR that much. As far I am concerned, if it was truely up to me. Anything above ground would be destroyed, the gods destroyed, Elves destroyed. I would see a few remaining people living, and it would be a primitive world. Yet its not up to me. So I frankly don't care about "offical" canon. I do take an Eberron approch to this, since in Eberron as should FR be, you can be the Heroes. Not the pawns.
Dexter_Blacktyde 12-23-06, 10:40 AM	English, careful, writting. Other than that its ok. I find it exceedingly amusing that you correct someone's spelling and make so many mistakes of your own. Besides, it is "writing", not "writting". DB
miscellany 12-23-06, 06:23 PM	SNIP. Unneeded content removed. Take it off the boards. It's OK Dexter you can be annoyed. I'm annoyed with you right now too. I'm annoyed at Alediran's flimsy 'if you change it too much it's not the Realms anymore' argument. ---total B.S. btw. People have been changing the Realms to fit their campaigns longer than he's been alive yet they are still playing in the Realms. Does he know this? If not he does now! I think Manyfist is totally correct. It really was and really is up to him what he did for his Realms and what he does to it in the future. Alediran may not like his style but this isn't the place for Alediran to criticize Manyfist and it never was. Conversly Alediran's style is also OK. Sounds very lore centric you know? SNIP. There is no one right way to play in the Realms. Merry Christmas SNIP. ! :D :P And I mean it too SNIP. ! I hope you all have a good holiday with friends and family and maybe you'll get to game some to on your time off. Real paragraphs this time! Karsus would be pround <I hope!>.
Dexter_Blacktyde 12-23-06, 06:48 PM	I'm annoyed at Alediran's flimsy 'if you change it too much it's not the Realms anymore' argument. ---total B.S. btw. People have been changing the Realms to fit their campaigns longer than he's been alive yet they are still playing in the Realms. Does he know this? If not he does now! He made his last reply on Dec 18th - so why do you act as if someone blurted out something along the lines of "Whoever changes the tiniest bit will burn in the Nine Hells" recently? You pointed out way before what you think about his attitude; since then nothing really happened in this thread. This is like being shouted at two weeks after the fact. SNIP. ! Merry Christmas SNIP. ! Merry Christmas, too! DB
Weiser_Cain 12-23-06, 07:03 PM	girls are all right
Sliced_Mustard 12-24-06, 11:16 AM	I'm annoyed at Alediran's flimsy 'if you change it too much it's not the Realms anymore' argument. ---total B.S. btw. People have been changing the Realms to fit their campaigns longer than he's been alive yet they are still playing in the Realms. Does he know this? If not he does now! SNIP. ! There is no one right way to play in the Realms. yeah, because if you want to look at it from a real technical aspect, if changing the FR to fit your own campaign needs makes the Realms not THE Realms anymore, then the core, canon Forgotten Realms gave up on being the Forgotten Realms a long time ago when TSR and WOTC deviated drastically from how Ed Greenwood runs the Realms. ;)
WizO_Shadow 12-24-06, 01:12 PM	I would say alrighty boys and girls play nice but that would just further incur what needs to be avoided from here on out. Gender doesn't matter. To me, everyone is a genderless blue alien wearing a christmas hat. Leave the sexism off the boards, it's not needed. We're more mature than that. WizO_Shadow RPG Boards Team
Sliced_Mustard 12-24-06, 02:49 PM	I would say alrighty boys and girls play nice but that would just further incur what needs to be avoided from here on out. Gender doesn't matter. To me, everyone is a genderless blue alien wearing a christmas hat. Leave the sexism off the boards, it's not needed. We're more mature than that. WizO_Shadow RPG Boards Team what if I am a genderless green alien wearing a kwanza cap? :P
Merlin_Durwood 12-27-06, 06:34 PM	what if I am a genderless green alien wearing a kwanza cap? :P Then that'd be kudos to you :D But let's get back on topic, shall we?
Karsus the Mad 12-27-06, 08:05 PM	To me, everyone is a genderless blue alien wearing a christmas hat. Leave the sexism off the boards, it's not needed. We're more mature than that. Other than the christmas hat, you named my prefered sexual preference...I love cute lil' aliens... Something I forgot to mention in my first post: I have an organization that keeps a tight reign on the technological exports of Lantan. They make sure smokepowder is "released" in small amounts, and they travel Toril controlling non-magical inventions.
MarkusTay63 12-28-06, 03:08 AM	This looked like a fun thread, and I've made numerous changes to my Realms (and almost all have logical explanations). However..... You guys have repeatedly attacked anyone who tried too stray to far from canon! Maybe you should re-name this thread "What changes have you made, so we can attack you on them?" The first couple of pages were good, but I lost interest by the end of #6. Nearly two pages of arguing, and the one guy who posts something interesting you start beating on. At least he drew heat off the first guy. yeeesh! A person can DO anything they want to THEIR Faerun. It isn't yours, it's theirs. No one is gonna blow up YOUR Waterdeep, so stop having a cow. BTW, When I frist read that, I was like "he did what?!" Then I was like "Hmmmmm.... interesting":plotting: In the little bit of posts that were ON SUBJECT, I have gleened at least 5 useable ideas, and maybe 20 more that require more thought. I 'maybe' saw 1 or 2 bad ones, don't remember what they were so they must have not been memoriable. At any rate, I'll probably read the last 3 pages tomorrow, and hopefully I can get at least one more post full of interesting tidbits. Oh, and I'm gonna blow up MY waterdeep tomorrow, just cause I can!:devil: (Actually, maybe just a ward. I can radio the OrkBoyz battlecruiser I've had in orbit for weeks. They were told to hold fire, but a warning shot couldn't hurt) ;)
GothicDan 12-28-06, 04:44 PM	Who are 'you guys', exactly? I think Alediran got a little out of hand, but other than that, I would call no one 'attacking' another person. Asking questions is not attacking, and if someone thinks that it is, they need to learn a bit more about socialization and conversing.
MaskedOne 12-28-06, 07:47 PM	Criticism is a part of open discussion. Sometimes its useful, sometimes not but locking down the option of criticizing at all while occasionally an amusing thought is NOT a useful one. Criticism properly used points out potential problems and gives people a chance to either rethink a concept or explain it better, hence promoting better thought out end-results. Now criticism and personal attack are two very different things. Any idea posted on a public forum is fair game for questions and critique. Thats the part of the point of a public forum. The posters, at least here, are NOT open targets in quite the same way. Failure to understand that ruling completely and abide by it is part of the reason that there's a polite message from Wiz_O Shadow. If you think Shadow did not handle matters in a sufficiently thorough manner then Shadow is the best choice of people to contact.
MarkusTay63 12-29-06, 03:16 AM	There are many ways ways to say the same thing, and without facial expressions and body language I only have the words used to judge your meaning. I'm VERY new here, although I'm an old timer on other related forums. I understand etiquette. The thread asks "what have you done?" The only response, if curious, should be "why?" Some one says they did something spectacular, so you want more info. there are different ways of asking the same thing - "Boy, thats extreme, may I ask why you would do that?" "Why the h__L would you go and do that for?" "Are you stupid or something?" All of these ask the question "why?" Although none of them are direct quotes, this is how I perceived them on my end of the monitor. I believe the Gentlemen gave you fair enough answers, and still he was deluged with response to the effect "your opinion is WRONG" An opinion can NEVER be wrong. He's perception of the world is different then yours, and mine, and Fred's over there in the corner.... Most of us know about Waterdeep, so when we read it it's like an update. he reads it and decides its very vague and not a whole lot of use to him in its current incarnation. Because he is already disappointed, HE JUST DOESN'T WANT to bother with finding more info, so he uses it the best way he knows how. With the city blown up, vague information is all you need, so the product has served HIS purpose. It doesn't really matter if anyone else thought it was good, because I'm sure none of us would agree on every product. Now I'm rambling. Suffice it to say I would of like to read a cool idea in every post, and instead read two whole pages of "That is sooo wrong". Whatever, to each his own. Personally, I hated the location of Thay, too far away from the main action. So I picked it up and dumped it into the middle of the Shaar. Using photoshop to alter the map was the easy part (not really), figuring out why the he_l it happened took me almost 3 days. So you guys can all tell me I can't do that, but you know what? I did. :P I even have the map to prove it. Edit:Well, just read the last three pages, and in all of that there were only two more posts with ideas. Nothing I would use, but interesting none the less. I'll check back in 8 or 9 pages, there should be at least one on-topic post by then... :rolleyes:
GothicDan 12-29-06, 10:33 AM	Because he is already disappointed, HE JUST DOESN'T WANT to bother with finding more info, so he uses it the best way he knows how. With the city blown up, vague information is all you need, so the product has served HIS purpose. It doesn't really matter if anyone else thought it was good, because I'm sure none of us would agree on every product. Sorry. I don't feel right in not at least trying to reverse ignorance. (Not in the 'you are ignorant/disrespectful!' way but in the 'You lack knowledge' way.) I think that people are so worried about offending each other these days that they're too afraid to do anything constructive, converse to exchange ideas and opinions, or even attempt to change each others' mindsets. Athens didn't become great by disallowing questions. It became great because it fostered everyone to state their opinions and have (moderated) conflicts idealistically.
MarkusTay63 12-29-06, 12:23 PM	I didn't mean you or anyone else in particular. Like I said, it was the way I perceive it on my end, the way people come across as it were. I'm all for people asking "why" because I want to know too. I just thought too pages of asking why was a little extreme. Now that I think about it, very little of it was "why?" Most of it was just that annoying 'quoting thing' that people use to take apart another person's post. I have always felt when people start doing that it is an attack, and I have seen it on plenty of other forums and it is always regarded thusly. Even if you do it politely. Hmmmm.... to keep to my own demands, I present you with next big change I made - My campaign is set 20 years ahead of the current canon, and lots of things happened. 10 years ago Elminster got involved in a thing called the 'Great Conjunction' (not to be confused with the Grand Conjunction from RL, although that is what gave me the concept). He was trying to help out a friend (Mordenkainen) for reasons way to complicated to get into and managed to talk Mystra (whos been leaning way to far over to good) into helping him keep it from Ao. Azuth was against it BTW. Anyhow, the entire thing backfired (Raistlin, who was helping, double-crossed them) and caused quite a bit of damage to Abeir-Toril. Elminster went missing (yes, I know where he is Bwah ha ha) during the fiasco. Ao was VERY upset, and Demoted Mystra to midnight, demi-god of magical items and restored the original Mystrl, because she was the truest neutral of the bunch. Then he decided that he obviousely erred during the ToT and demoted Cyric and Kelemvor to Demi-gods and restored Myrkul and the god of murder (forget his name). So now the Realms are a much changed place, El is missing, the Symbul took off to find him although no one knows this, because the Yuir God Symbul hid a piece of herself years ago and has been residing in THe Symbul since she took that name. When The Symbul left the plane, the God Symbul manifested (thanx to renewed worship by the returning star Elves) and is posing as The Simbul, ruler of Aglarond until she is ready to act. Otherwise, all official canon happened, the changes I make I tried to shoe-horn into existing stuff so it all makes some sense.
kelcimer 12-29-06, 02:06 PM	Personally, I hated the location of Thay, too far away from the main action. So I picked it up and dumped it into the middle of the Shaar. Using photoshop to alter the map was the easy part (not really), figuring out why the he_l it happened took me almost 3 days. Rock on! Both for moving Thay and redoing the map. I'm also photoshoping the Realms and then dumping it into illustrator to do the roads and such. Cormanthor never looked so big. Good times.:D
MarkusTay63 12-29-06, 06:47 PM	When I moved Thay, I had several reasons for doing so. In order to make it fit I had to stretch the map downward somewhat; as a by product I ended up with some extra space AND moved Chult (which I always hated) further south. Everything that existed before still exists, and I have room for three more kingdoms besides. Also, part of my VERY long explanation for moving Thay was because it was slowing reverting to the way it was nearly 5,000 years ago - mostly forest, which would have been the original eastern Yuirwood. Entire secrions of Thay would revert to ancient forests overnight, and the Zulkirs couldn't ascertain why this was happening, even with powerful divination magic (this was happening because of behind the scenes interference from certain nature Gods allied with the returning Yuir Totems). So now, with the help mainly of three evil deities (who had their own agendas) a 'New' Thay was born in the lands to the south. Now they have their old enemies to their East, Magical rivals directly South (Halruaa) AND a MAJOR economic rival of Calimport to the West (Thay now has a port on the Moonsea). There is also the newly formed nation of Stygia (Black wizards!) Southwest of them, who are Thayan ex-patriates who followed Set when the old Thay was abandoned. This makes lots of sense actually, because the Mulan (Egyptians) are actually decended from the ancient kingdom of Stygia on earth, and they worshipped Set way back then. Anyhow, I have a new forest kingdom where Thay used to be, with at least three different groups of centaurs and tons of Fey. I still haven't figured out what to do with the last new area I gained. I placed the cities and capital, but still have no idea who or what they are. Since it wound up between Dambrath and Luiren I've been toying with the idea of Darklings (Evil dark halflings) but as of yet I'm undecided. There were very powerful (personal) reasons for the Great Conjunction, which occurred immediately before I ran my LAST FR campaign (14 years ago), so now I'm just moving forward with MY timeline, working in all the canon stuff as I go. I also gained several islands from the 'stretch' (one HUGE), which helps when I need to fit something in.
BrennonGoldeye 12-29-06, 09:17 PM	The Yuir God Symbul hid a piece of herself years ago and has been residing in THe Symbul since she took that name. When The Symbul left the plane, the God Symbul manifested (thanx to renewed worship by the returning star Elves) and is posing as The Simbul, ruler of Aglarond until she is ready to act. Otherwise, all official canon happened, the changes I make I tried to shoe-horn into existing stuff so it all makes some sense. Change only three words and thats my FR Algarond. I like the way you think Markus.:D
Dark Wizard 12-29-06, 09:28 PM	My campaign is set 20 years ahead of the current canon, and lots of things happened. 10 years ago Elminster got involved in a thing called the 'Great Conjunction' (not to be confused with the Grand Conjunction from RL, although that is what gave me the concept). {Snip} So you had another RSE to undo the Time of Troubles RSE. I like it, bravo for undoing that awkward event. When I moved Thay, I had several reasons for doing so. {Snip} That actually sounds fun. It also doesn't seem to change the relations of many countries all that much, in fact made more interesting conflicts that work well for all parties involved. And you put Stygia "back" in the Realms. :D
MarkusTay63 12-30-06, 04:12 AM	I would have just told my players "it was always there", because Mulhorand is nearby so that worked, but the whole thing with Rashemen and the Tuigen Horde would have to have been thrown out the window. Thats why I had the 'emergency evacuation'. Set has been working on getting followers in Thay for years, so I figured that gaping hole that was left when Cyric killed all of Bhaal's(?) worshippers got his foot in the door. His cult grew rapidly over ten years, and came into conflict with the worshipers of Kossuth. At the time of the strange 'forest event', they were ready for all-out war, with about 25% pro-set, 25% pro-kossuth, and 50% sitting on the fence (typical Thayans). When the crisis came, Set offered to save everyone who swore to worship him until the end of time. Kossuth, not wanting to be out-done, offered to save only HIS loyal followers. Bane, being the craftiest of the them all, told the people of Thay that he would evacuate the entire country AND create a 'New Thay' identicle to the old one NO STRINGS ATTACHED! Needless to say, most people went with Bane, and he reformed the landrise of shar into the Thayan plateau and transported everyone there. Even though he never required it, his is the ONLY worship allowed in New Thay. Smart guy. Set took everyone a little further South to the edge of the jungle (Stygia), and Kossuth took his people to the Firepeaks in Chult (where he is worshipped already), and his people plan there revenge on the other groups (Green Wizards?). So now you have 3 powerful Wizard Kingdoms nearby (including Halruaa), and another group hiding secretly in the jungle, and Stygia and Thay BOTH have to contend with the naval power and economic might of Calimshan. I also added tons of islands to the shining sea (more side effects of the RSE), so now I can have a hot bed of magical activity AND pirates! - And just a hop, skip, and a jump from the heartlands. But you really don't want to know about what poor Azoun's grandson turned into......
Dexter_Blacktyde 12-30-06, 10:40 AM	But you really don't want to know about what poor Azoun's grandson turned into...... You bet I do :D DB
MarkusTay63 12-30-06, 01:10 PM	You bet I do :D DBBecause of the odd circumstances surrounding his conception, on his 13th birthday he began to show all the outward signs of a Cambion! He grew quicker then normal, so at this time he looked more like a 16 year old. Alusair was away leading armies against Goblins and what not, and he took his grandpa's crown an proclaimed himself king. By the time Alusair got back to the capital it was too late, and he had her EXECUTED on trumped up charges of treason. It was one helluva birthday party. Meanwhile, The Overmaster of the Sembian council had become more and more powerful, so the other members of the council called an emergency meeting. The night before the meeting was supposed to occur all the other council members were assasinated, along with over a hundred other powerful merchants with political pull. The Overmaster declared himself Interrim Suzerain and imposed martial law until the vile culprits were caught. Of course, no one was ever caught, and he remained in power for 18 years. His daughter, whom everyone always referred to as the 'Princess', murdered her father in his sleep (how fitting) and took the title of Crown Princess of Sembia. The young king next store, who was only a couple years older then her, grew curious and demanded a summit with the new soveriegn to discuss 'the borders'. With much fanfare, the two monarchs entered a private room for their 'meeting', and didn't come out for 24 hours! When they did, they annouced their engagement and to the surprise of both their peoples they were married the next day! Turns out she was a Tiefling, but always kept her cute little horns well hidden. And so, the new Empire of Corembia was born.....
Dexter_Blacktyde 12-30-06, 02:15 PM	Very inventive, nice ideas. I assume a certain second part of a prequel trilogy gave you the martial law idea? ;) (Nothing wrong with it, I plan something similar with Sembia.) DB
MarkusTay63 12-30-06, 03:15 PM	Of course. :D I always pictured Sembia similar to a pre-unification Italy, a merchant nation with lots of double-dealing and back-stabbing, so it was a natural progression. The mother of the Tiefling 'Princess' BTW, was a succubus who aided the old Overmaster on the "Night of dark dealings" (as that event became known). She and other demons killed the council and other merchants as part of a long-term deal she had with the Overmaster. She is still 'advising' her daughter BTW, unbenownst the her husband. For the most part the Princess deals with the economic part of the Empire and concerns herself with taking over the Sea of Fallen Stars. The King on the other handles the military end, and has recently annexed the few remaining dales 'for their own protection'. Ostensibly, he has announced that Cormathyr is a protectorate of the New Empire, but he has made no moves to infiltrate the forest kingdom as of yet. It truly is a match made in Hell. I been working my players up the coast of the Vast traveling with a Thayan Caravan as guards (they started in Raven's Bluff, Thay has a large enclave there now that they have 'moved'). I had hopes of using the stuff from the Moonsea book when they got there, even though much has change (Zhents have unified the area). Then after soome adventures, have them move down to Shadowdale. I was thinking of a campaign arc called "The Last Dale" this whole while, letting the characters level on the way. I had to change it though, because I understand Shadowdale is scheduled to fall soon. Now I'm thinking that soon after the Zhents conquered it nearly 20 years ago they abonded it for some strange reason. many groups (including the new Corembian Empire) have sent scouts in there over the years, but none have returned. Right now I'm waiting for the canon to come out about it before I develop it further, but I'm thinking "The Elves of Cormanthyr have reported seeing strange lights around the ruins of El's Tower", or something to that effect. I'm sure the canon will be out before my players are done with the moonsea though. Not easy keeping canon when you are playing in the future of it, but I do my best. A certain Waterdavian wizard perished recently, and that actually worked into my timeline perfectly (after all, since the 'great conjunction', the REAL Khelben Arunsun has been living on Abeir-Toril) ;) Like I said, 10 years ago I had a HUMONGOUS reason for doing this 'RSE'. I had been running Greyhawk for nearly ten years, and have thousands of items all ready written up (NPCs, towns, encounters). I had run ALL the modules at least twice, and was VERY familiar with everything. Then after a 5 year hiatus, My 14 year old brother-in-law took an interest in the game, along with about TEN of his friends. My father-in-law knew I used to play, and asked me to teach them. Unfortunately, some of them had read the FR novels and/or purchased FR source material, and they didn't want any part of 'Greyhawk'. The first session we just rolled up characters and I taught them the basics, and by the following week I had bought both the 'Gold Box' and the 2e Core books (Yes, I was THAT far behind). I wanted to use all the stuff I know in my Realms campaign, so I had to come up with a plausible explanation why things like The Temple of Elemntal Evil and the Valley of the Mage were now located in faerun. It worked... I used my Greyhawk material AND the players got play in the REALMS. Everyone was happy. Except El, he went missing, poor old guy...... :devil:
Dexter_Blacktyde 12-30-06, 04:47 PM	I always pictured Sembia similar to a pre-unification Italy, a merchant nation with lots of double-dealing and back-stabbing That would be a good analogy indeed; that's how I portray Sembia, too. As for myself, I've changed so much, I fear I've lost count *g* I never shoehorn an idea into the setting just because I think it's cool, but I've had to make many, many minor changes, almost always because I didn't like the original ideas and had to come up with alternatives that fit my taste and / or my desire for logic or atmosphere better. The first things that had to go were the uninspired real-word copies. There's no Kara-Tur, no Zakhara, no Maztica (replaced by a mysterious Anchorome about which information is very scarce), a different Anauroch (not a desert inhabited by out-of-place Bedine, but a cold, lifeless and hostile tundra like Siberia and the home of Larloch), I've heavily redesigned Mulhorand, there's never been a Tuigan Horde (replaced by orcs), and so on. The biggest change I've made was toning down the power level. IMC wizards are a rarity, there are no ridiculous celestial half-this-half-thats with the werepenguin template, the gods never intervene, neither by aspects or by indirect means, many way-out-there concepts get kicked out the second they show up, the number of NPC races got reduced (who needs Phaerimm and Sharn and Grimlocks and Skum and what have you...), and miracles and magical phenomena are not matters of course for the average Faerûnian. I've completely rewritten Tethyr's Reclamation (because it concentrated too much on the crappy novels, i.e. it centered around Zaranda, Haedrak and a handful of other heroes who acted as an adventuring band and single-handedly made history; but the subject asked for political maneuverings, war strategies, battles that are decided by wise foresight and clever strategy, not by the doings of a select few). I've established that the mythal Alustriel & co. put on Hellgate Keep kept true outsiders from entering and leaving, but not halfbloods who were naturally superior to humans, elves etc. So Hellgate Keep bred them big time to be able to send forth another army with which to conquer the North, but as it turned out, a tiefling army - unlike a true outsider army - would be logistically impossible to feed with Hellgate Keep's limited resources. So the devils who ruled the Keep (I didn't like the idea of demons inhabiting a place called Hellgate Keep) cut a deal with young Manshoon to breed tieflings for his army. Naturally, Manshoon had to wait decades for this, but with his decline in power he never had a chance to collect them. When Fzoul (who had to bide his time between Bane's death and Xvim's ascension as a non-cleric because it escaped me why a god - even a mad one - would bestow divine powers on his sworn enemy) appointed himself the new ruler of the Zhentarim, he came into a substantial amount of money and collected the tieflings and a few devils - courtesy of Orgauth's helpful intervention - shortly before the Keep blew up. Together with the 2000 men sent by Manshoon this idea lent itself to an explanation of Zhentil Keep's sudden rise to power so shortly after the devastating Second Banedeath, and why they had to expand just to survive. I've redesigned the Zhentarim after Xvim's awakening and Fzoul's rise to power into a semi-fascistic organization, and I've made clear why the charismatic persuader Fzoul is considered a true hero by his people. Manshoon willingly let Fzoul finish him soon thereafter to be "reborn" into his single stasis clone (not forty), just because he was quite old, and to kill two birds with one stone he lead Fzoul to believe he was dead and enjoys his new, healthy, young body. As you can imagine, that's only a small extract of the adjustments I made. DB P.S.: I like El :P
MarkusTay63 12-30-06, 06:01 PM	We think along similar lines Blacktyde. :devil: Except for the Tuigen Horde being Orcs, the rest sounds like me. Zahkara has been moved (the old location now is an EXACT copy of WoW's Stranglthorn Vale), kara-Tur and Maztica are there, but I don't use them at all. I've also pasted Athas into the Raurin desert (seems those old Imaskari gates have been acting up). It was actually a perfect fit! (size-wise). I couldn't help myself, I wanted desert Elves and man-eating hobbits. :D
Dexter_Blacktyde 12-30-06, 06:52 PM	Nice to hear, good sir :) I've been thinking about using Athas myself - it's a hell of a setting, though I'd remove psionics 'cause I just hate them -, but I'd place it where Zakhara lies. Probably I won't do it, but the idea keeps popping up in some dusty backroom of my mind. (I hesitate to follow through with it because importing something not native to a setting just... doesn't feel right. There's a voice that keeps screaming: "You don't belong here!" Oh, the problems of great minds... *cough*) DB
MarkusTay63 12-30-06, 07:43 PM	They way I look at it is that they are fairly new there, and for the most part have been living in a miserable desert for so long that 99.99% of them don't want to leave. This explains why you will se an occasional Tri-keen mercenary or some-such, but for the most part it's non-interactive. I don't use psionics either, but I have to assume that the change in Crystal spheres cause psionics to work differently, so many haven't learned the new methods. Also, since Magic and Deities are both options open to them now, they won't be so focused on their mental abilities. I know, it's a bit of a cop-out, but it works for me. Besides, it really does fit perfectly! The shape, the size, even the mountain range to the West... it is as if it were meant to be there. :D And the fact that it's on real estate that used to be occupied by a race that opened up mega-portals to other worlds.... HELLO! It just screams "Do Me!"
BrennonGoldeye 01-01-07, 05:35 PM	OK you two, enough kissyface...;)
Zargain 01-01-07, 09:22 PM	Well here is some ideas I've been toying with to ocur during the campaign: 1) Obould draws out his forces to assail The Silver Marches. The Arcane Brotherhood sees this as an advantage to eliminate Silverymoon as a threat to their magic experimentas and to reap the magic from Silverymoon by making a deal with the orcs once they are (hopefuly on their part) victorious. After a long and costly war Obould is defeated. Depending on the actions of the PCs there could be a number of various extra effects: A) The Brotherhood's secret involvment could be outed and as a result the lords alliance takes action forcing the brotherhood to flee underground (not nessisarily litteraly) B) Depending on how effective the war effort is, it could very welll deplete the number of orcs in the North and force them to stay hidden for years later for fear of facing the wrath of the civilized nations (they defeated Gruumsh's supposed chosen one so that would obviously kill their morale for years) C) While some of the cities of the marches might be badly damaged or possibly even sacked depending on what occurs, the stalwart defense of the Marches shows nearby cities that by working together the cities of the noth could weather any storm causing more cities and towns of the north to join the confederation. 2) Shadovar attempts once again to make the Anarouch fertile again. The ancient secret magic they use creates even more drought and famine in the surrounding lands. Seeing this as a threat to perhaps all of Faerun, the chosen of Mystra and many other great powers of Faerun (even the Zhents) band together to form an alliance to destroy the shades. This will probably be the big near-the-campaign's-end climax. It will result in a battle that makes the Tuigan crusade look like two kids splashing each other in a kiddie pool.
MarkusTay63 01-02-07, 11:40 AM	I don't think anyone likes the Shades. I just ignore them, they are there but so what? Maybe after their eventual defeat in your campaign, they can go into hiding and become terrorists. Or is a bunch of crazy homocidal maniacs living in the desert and armed to the teeth just too far fetched? :rolleyes:
boards 01-02-07, 04:06 PM	Ive made a few changes. Gods do not have any spellcasting levels, they simply use alter reality and SDA to do what ever they need. The time of troubles did not happen Mystra is not the weave, she is merely the aspect that Faerunian humans use to access arcane magic. Corrosponding to this no member of the Faerunian pantheon has precedence of gods from different pantheons i.e. Osiris has total control over Mulhoradhi dead without any interaction from Murkyl. Divine spellcasting does not use the weave but rather planar energies from their gods home plane.
BadCatMan 01-03-07, 04:27 AM	I try to keep very close to established Realmslore. I feel that I can come up with a halfway decent (or even great) storyline myself, or dig around for someone else's cool ideas and build on them for something even better. I think limitations promote imagination. I just remove all traces of Spelljamming where I find it. It's not that I don't like it - I like the idea, though I know very little about it - I just find it rather odd that spaceships are landing on a medieval-styled world where people still get around on horse and cart and sail. And it opens up a whole new avenue of research I could do without.
MarkusTay63 01-03-07, 04:03 PM	Lol, I understand your sentiments about Spelljamming, it used to give me nightmares. My players always wanted to get their hands on a ship and fly to other worlds. Great... just what I need... to flesh out THIRTY other game worlds... :rolleyes: It does exist in my campaign, but something VERY EVIL has wiped out the major players in space, and now the few groundling nations are afraid to go there anymore for fear of catching the attention of these 'newcomers'. I know WHAT they are, but I'm not telling. They did simulataneously enihalate an alliance of the Elvish armada, the Scro, 7 beholder hives, 12 Dwarven citadels, and a fleet of Illithids. 'Nuff said. The other major change I made to my Realms is the cosmology; the 'gods' are actually pretty low on the cosmic pecking order. Magic has various sources, but Mystra ONLY controls the Arcane one. The fact that Mystra stopped 10th+ level magic and controls ALL magic is probably the greatest piece of propaganda in history! Originally, she simply caused EVERY spell above 9th to fail, and her priests spread the word of her new edict. The thing is, she had to actually cause EACH instance of 10+ magic to fail, to spread the lie. mages no longer bother to research these magics or cast the spells because they 'know' they won't work. If someone manages to get a hold of a Netherese spell book and use it without Mystra knowing (no easy task) they would find out the truth. This makes more sense to me, since magic created prior to Mystras Edict still functions normally (like the Mythallars). She merely represents a small portion of everything magical, and makes it more comprehensible to mortals through the existance of the 'weave'. The weave, in actuality, does not exist the same way in my world. It is just a metaphor for the arcane formulas used in creating magical 'events' (spells). there are other methods for creating these events (such as Shar's shadow weave), but Mystra's clergy has been so efficient that there are very few in the Realms that have come to realize the depth of her chicanery. Mystra has pulled a magical 'coupe' that gods of other spheres look on in envy. Her chosen, BTW, do know the truth, and help spread the 'lie'. They are like 'magic police', keeping track of what others in the realms are researching and doing. If you notice, El is friends with many powerful people who a good-aligned person should not normally associate with (Halaster, Larloch, etc). He does this to keep track of these people, who may also know the truth. That is the real reason why Elminster is so powerful, unbeknowst to the rest of Toril he is USING 10th LEVEL MAGIC! Like I said, this is how it plays out in my corner of the multiverse, do with it what you will.
Karsus the Mad 01-03-07, 09:13 PM	I just find it rather odd that spaceships are landing on a medieval-styled world where people still get around on horse and cart and sail. And it opens up a whole new avenue of research I could do without. Ditto. It always struck me as simply dumb that FR has spelljamming and has discovered and noted all planets in Realmspace, yet there's three amazingly large continents that are completely "Unknown" on Toril.
MarkusTay63 01-03-07, 11:28 PM	This can be explained by simple real world physics. Missiles are much easier to build then planes, and can travel from NY to Cali in a matter of minutes. Planes are more complicated, and take on the average 5 hours to travel across country. Why you may ask? Because a missile travels straight up (near the limit of Earths atmosphere) and then straight back down. A plane must travel across the thousands of miles, through denser air so it is much harder. Therefore, traveling straight up into Realmspace is much easier to do then across it's oceans. I know this is a stupid example, but it is the best I can come up with. Now do you see why I put the smack down on Spelljamming in my universe?
Krash 01-03-07, 11:42 PM	Ditto. It always struck me as simply dumb that FR has spelljamming and has discovered and noted all planets in Realmspace, yet there's three amazingly large continents that are completely "Unknown" on Toril. A bit like the wilds of New Guinea or South America in the early part of the 20th century, despite the existence of airplanes. -- George Krashos
Old Sage 01-04-07, 12:06 AM	Ditto. It always struck me as simply dumb that FR has spelljamming and has discovered and noted all planets in Realmspace, yet there's three amazingly large continents that are completely "Unknown" on Toril.I don't think it's... "dumb." Consider that most certainly, elven spelljammers dispatched from Evermeet, or even those of the Shou Imperial Fleet, have likely, from time to time, noted the existence of these "unknown lands." And visitors from other Crystal Spheres have likely shared their own celestial observations with those Realms cultures they visit (for a price)... observations made during a spelljammer's descent to the surface of Toril. These may not be entirely trustworthy however, and may be nothing more than fanciful interpretations made by "respected spelljamming scholars" looking to make a quick gold-piece by selling "authentic" Torilian maps they've made on sojourns around Toril itself, to gullible inhabitants of the Realms or elsewhere. However, the question remains about how accessible these studies made by either the casual celestial observer, the elves of Evermeet, or the explorers from Shou Lung, would be to outsiders. I sincerely doubt such knowledge would be wide-spread -- especially when you consider what either the elves or the Shou are usually like when it comes to sharing most types of knowledge with any outsiders. As well, there is the supposed accuracy of these observations to consider. It's highly likely that spelljammers travelling to and from Toril have indeed noticed these other continents on particular occasions... however, unless these spelljammers have been assigned to explore them, or have specific interests with them, these "unknown lands" probably still exist, largely, as nothing more than vague interpretations, redefined constantly over many years, on a "scholar's map" much as the FRCS notes. Indeed. Aside from a few brief notes or sketches found on incomplete or archaic maps stored in places of knowledge, such as Candlekeep for example, expert knowledge regarding these "unknown lands" is likely to be still relatively limited to a select number of explorers/enterprising individuals who have either been lucky enough to see, briefly visit, or learn about them.
Blackheart 01-04-07, 04:17 AM	Markus stole my idea! *copyrights then sues* My campaign is also 20 years in the future, starting in 1394 DR. I posted when I first started it and some may remember. I've actually not changed too much, as the campaign is a 'sequel' to one I ran a couple years back. In the advancement of the timeline and through gameplay, the following has been changed: -The PCs from the older campaign founded a city in the foothills of the Thesk Mountains. -1390, The Year of the Walking Man, sees a plague that decimates horses all over the continent, driving some breeds to near extinction. Roughly 60% of the horses of Faerun succumb to this malady before epic divine magic reins in the threat. Oddly, all awakened (or otherwise more intelligent) mounts go unaffected. -The Karanok family of Luthcheq consolidated the power of Northwestern Chessentan cities and held out defiantly against Tchazzar's regime until 3 or 4 sessions ago. -Hoar (whose portfolio intrigues me), in a desperate bid to maintain his divinity, travelled to Boareskyr Bridge to subsume the essence of Bhaal, thus granting him more time to (hopefully) muster worship. Realizing this, Cyric, in a bid to expand his influence with Hoar's portfolio, went to destroy the demigod. An event (which I haven't detailed) occurred which brought Cyric down to a DR 8 Lesser deity and fueled Hoar, who has since claimed dominion around the Bridge and resides in a fortress there, which some call "The Throne of Bhaal" in whispers. The rest of that story is all spooky and mysterious, and happens to be something the PCs know nothing about, nor does it affect the campaign, I just liked it. -After the reclamation of Myth Drannor, the city has begun rebuilding to its old splendor and welcomes all, especially those of varied elf blood. Going so far as to take in Neutral and Good aligned Drow and Fey'ri, though animosity is still prevalent among some members of all races and subraces involved. -King Azoun V, now of age, rules over Cormyr with widespread support. In his short time on the throne, he has implemented sweeping reforms in trade, facilitating alliances with Sembia, Thay, and the country formerly known as Lantan. These trade agreements are looked upon with suspicion by some, but as time goes on, the strength of the partnerships seems well and good. -The Church of Bahamut petitioned Azoun and was granted deeds in the Stonelands, giving a base to the newly revitalized faith, though settling the area is, as always, a slow, trying, process. -Lantan has become The Illuminated Technocracy of the Gondar. A theo/technocratic nation that sprung up from a magic-enhanced "industrial revolution" of sorts brought on by a character from the 1st campaign. The inventors have been pushing the divine laws of tech to the limits and have lost control of their nation to uncaring magical automatons (warforged), who have been using puppet natives to sell these new constructs (the various warforged) and other weapons to power groups on the mainland. [I can't really go into much more on this as my players sometimes wander the boards.] The PCs at one point travelled to the Technocracy and some of my players were appalled at the scene I described of the island nation. (Think the city description in the first few pages of Perdido Street Station.) I'm sure there's more in my notes that isn't coming to me, but eh. It's past time I slept.
MarkusTay63 01-04-07, 02:19 PM	Markus stole my idea! *copyrights then sues* My campaign is also 20 years in the future, starting in 1394 DR. I posted when I first started it and some may remember. I've actually not changed too much, as the campaign is a 'sequel' to one I ran a couple years back.Lol, great minds think alike. Mine is also a sequel to a campaign I did some 12 years ago. That one was also set 20 years into the future (1387), and this one is set in 1395, eight years later then that one. Fortunately, the players back then never did anything 'grand', so I can just pick-up where that one left off. All I had to do was add in the canon that has happened. That worked out rather well, because I had the Elves return to Cormanthyr (I think WotC sneaks into my house at night and reads my notes). Shade annoyed me, but I added it because I like keeping as close as can to the 'real' history. Since my original players never went anywhere near Anauroch I just assume it was there then but they never interacted with it. I like the stuff about Hoar, we seem to think alike. The only major change to my 'canon' from the original campaign was the reason behind the evacuation of Oerth (Great Conjunction). Originally, the planet was breaking up do to 'extreme cosmic imbalance' (I killed off my old Greyhawk campaign). After seeing The Chronicles of Riddick, I have a new reason for them to flee. :plotting: If I ever want to deep-6 this campaign for another, guess who's gonna come a-knockin'? ;) Like you did with Hoar, the players are totally unaware of these behind-the-scenes events, they're are there just for my personal amusement. BTW - Why you aced the horses? :confused:
Blackheart 01-04-07, 02:57 PM	In regards to yours and DB's discussions on interactions of Toril with other campaigns, I have my own theories on those...ones which would no doubt draw plenty of ire. The various other happenings in the game such as Shade, etc., I don't usually bother with detailing until my campaign goes there. I like my games to move around alot (the current campaign has been to Thesk, The Great Dale, Thay, Cormyr, Cormanthyr, Lantan, Chessenta and Calimport, the latter by way of portal), and while the PCs are doing great things, they're still working on the small scale, just like the novel characters. They aren't well known (except in their stomping grounds) and they don't happen to have a copy of the Abeir-Toril Times delivered to their door daily, so they don't know what's going on and the who's-who of the Realms. As for acing the horses? Well, I like the names put forth by the Roll of Years, and I wanted something that directly correlated with the prophecied name of the year, but was different and interesting. It's also something that impacts the game, because mounts are slightly more expensive now and are truly wonderful gifts to have bestowed. A unique twist to the familiar without tearing at the foundations, you know? Some might argue that the horse population would be almost back to normal, but I've lived around farms enough to know otherwise.
MarkusTay63 01-04-07, 03:48 PM	Okay, gonna take the plunge and look stupid here. I can't locate the complete list of years! I've checked my numerous sources, but they all stop at 1377. Which product, or where on the web, can I find that information? @Blackheart - feel free to PM me your theories about trans-spherical interactions. I like the way you think. If you read my earlier posts, I only did something so major so I could use 15+ years worth of campaign stuff that I created/adapted for Greyhawk. Had I not done that I would have to start from scratch, so it was an unfortunately neccessary world altering event. :(
Blackheart 01-04-07, 04:37 PM	You can find a .doc or .rtf on Candlekeep with three of the Roll, categorized in different ways. I suggest getting Brian R. James' netbook A Grand History of the Realms, though. It's an amazing compilation of timeline lore. From page 92 on lists the Roll of Years stretching from -700 DR to 1600 DR. (The same Roll from the .doc) Though I recommend you browse all of Candlekeep's offerings, you can get Mr. James' book here (http://www.candlekeep.com/downloads/grandhistory.zip).
Old Sage 01-04-07, 07:20 PM	Okay, gonna take the plunge and look stupid here. I can't locate the complete list of years! I've checked my numerous sources, but they all stop at 1377. Which product, or where on the web, can I find that information?The full Roll of Years is also available in various formats at Candlekeep (http://www.candlekeep.com/downloads/roll_of_years.zip), and in the nifty Forgotten Realms Calendar Tool (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/frx/20050525x).
Karsus the Mad 01-04-07, 09:53 PM	A bit like the wilds of New Guinea or South America in the early part of the 20th century, despite the existence of airplanes. -- George Krashos We also didn't have orbiting ships that had crisscrossed the solar system time and again, magical divinations, nor had we also traveled to heaven, hell, limbo, purgatory, nervanna, or hyperspace. Heck, we're not even sure if they truly exist, unlike FR, where alternate planes are known to be real. But we at least checked our own planet before trying the moon:P However, I was speaking from an out-of-game perspective. I know the reasoning out-of-game, but it doesn't help at all in-game. I simply don't like Spelljamming in this regard. It just doesn't make sense to me. I don't think it's... "dumb." Note that I make a strict distinction between "dumb" and "stupid". When I say "dumb", it's not derogative, from my PoV. It's basically saying "the consequences don't seem to have been thought out fully", whereas when I say stupid, I'm saying "the consequences don't seem to have been thought of at all". I like your explanation, from an in-game PoV. However, the subjects pertaining to FR and Spelljamming aren't made out as an in-game perspective, but as out-of-game fact. I find it simply...dumb...that FR would have entire civilizations capable of Spelljamming over the centuries, yet not one has ever reliably mapped out the planet?. Out-of-game I understand. Those unknown lands provide ample oppertunity for DM's to incorporate something exotic into the campagin (as I've done with one of them). In-game however it just doesn't fit, unless as DM I say so.
Old Sage 01-04-07, 11:27 PM	Note that I make a strict distinction between "dumb" and "stupid". When I say "dumb", it's not derogative, from my PoV. It's basically saying "the consequences don't seem to have been thought out fully", whereas when I say stupid, I'm saying "the consequences don't seem to have been thought of at all".Fair enough. I like your explanation, from an in-game PoV. However, the subjects pertaining to FR and Spelljamming aren't made out as an in-game perspective, but as out-of-game fact. I find it simply...dumb...that FR would have entire civilizations capable of Spelljamming over the centuries, yet not one has ever reliably mapped out the planet?. Out-of-game I understand. Those unknown lands provide ample oppertunity for DM's to incorporate something exotic into the campagin (as I've done with one of them). In-game however it just doesn't fit, unless as DM I say so.You're assuming, however, that Realms-based cultures who have access to spelljammers, or who are active in spelljamming-capable communities are going to want to explore Toril using spelljammers. To date, we haven't seen much indication of that in the Realmslore beyond what's been, briefly, stated with regard to the limited spelljamming activities of both the elves of Evermeet and the Shou. There simply doesn't appear to be enough cultural impetus among the varied lands of Faerun for most explorers to "want" to travel beyond the continent itself and map lands that are supposedly "unknown." The average Realmsian, afterall, has enough trouble just trying to learn a little about their own region (facts that are immediately important and/or necessary for their daily lives), let alone about the rest of the surrounding Realms, to say nothing about them also having to worry about what strange and exotic lands lay beyond their city's walls. Consider also, that Faerun, the Hordelands, Kara-Tur, and Zakhara itself, aren't "completely" known lands either. There is still plenty waiting to be discovered by intrepid Realmsian explorers throughout Faerun, as well as the Hordelands, Kara-Tur, and Zakhara. There's also Maztica, still a relatively unknown land for the most part, and largely because there's only been limited interest from the lands of Faerun, and then, mainly from those only on the western coast -- such as Amn for example. Beyond that, few cities, towns, or power groups active in the Realms have much interest in Maztica, not when they have their own needs, in the Realms, to attend to. I'd imagine that a similar mindset, concerning lands beyond Faerun, or even Maztica itself, still exists... even given the "relative" easy of spelljamming and what it can mean for exploring the rest of Toril.
MarkusTay63 01-05-07, 04:06 AM	"It has been discovered, during our most recent explorations, that there exists large magical sargassos just above the surface of many of Abeir-Torils oceans. These areas of treacherously unstable magic make navigating in uncharted areas extremely dangerous. I lost three ships trying to go around and even over these zones, but to no avail. They seem to extend for miles in every direction, including straight up, and can even expand suddenly to capture an unwary ship and crew. It is with great regret that I must inform your Majesty that your plan to map the farthest shores of Faerun has come to an end. I return to you now in shame, with what few ships I have left, for I cannot bear to lose another." ---------Your servant, Lady Ryllae Windwalker, High-Admiral of her Majesty's Royal Elven Navy" there you go, nice and tidy. Just stick that little note in your canon somewhere and the whole world is right again. ;) BTW, I just made this up just now, but it'll be part of my campaign by this weekend.
BrennonGoldeye 01-06-07, 08:41 PM	Hmmm... 3 Paragon spriggans to Markus. She loves those with knowledge of Her kin.....;)
Stigger 01-07-07, 03:49 AM	Where to begin... ditched the Shades, Shadow Weave, and most of the stuff in Serpent Kingdoms with the Sarukkh (or however that's spelled) to start, along with the Cormyr novel line series, since I like Azoun IV far too much to have him die by anything other than old age. Blended in a lot of elements of White Wolf's old World of Darkness, namely some transplanted Sphere Mages, Faeries, and the odd Garou, only making the Fae far more center stage and powerful than they were in the Storyteller system, essentially reverting them back to True Fae. Sphere Mages I've kept pretty much as is, except for ditching the whole paradox thing, replacing it with a sort of weave backlash where Mystra slaps them on the noggin for their arrogance and having them really surprised when that 'standard wizard' hands them their arse with their 'static' magic. Garou... well... holy warriors who've converted to worshipping Chauntea and Selune, but otherwise the same holy terrors they were in the Storyteller system. Made Loviater much more powerful, as in Pain is the first and finest teacher humanity has, and we wouldn't survive long without it. Read this really interesting article about a village somewhere in the middle east where a significant portion of the population is born without their pain receptors working correctly, or at all, and most of them dying off before 25 due to not realizing they were being harmed by various things they did. Put her up to Intermediate Power, making good progress towards Greater after reading that one and realizing just how powerful and necessary she really would be. Put her much closer to the neutral side of things as well, still evil, but far, far less actively evil. Speaking of which, ended the Blood War via a deity called the Elderdark, the original lord of Nightmare and Correlon's older brother, who's taken over Baator and allied himself with even the upper planar types in an effort to make them see the real adversary they all had to face was Apathy... goes hand in hand with the 'earth' based cross-over thing and the hatred they had for the 'godless' culture there. Going for a kinder, gentler brand of Evil... it's a balance of the scales issue since I've implied that Gaia and Chauntea are twins and that since the Abyss clearly had a strong dominance over the World of Darkness, their claws would be firmly clipped until that balance was restored. Got rid of Beshaba, in favor of a newly created deity called Basha, who was reshaped by the Elderdark as a LE godess to counterbalance Tymora's CG alignment a bit better, who mostly goes by the Law of Threes and is the 'statistics' approach to luck. Shar got herself seriously weakened by the arrival of her 'creator' and still rebels against him, but has been reduced to Lesser Power as a result of his arrival. Cyric and Bane are also seriously threatened by the Elderdark, since he's built up so many alliances in a very short amount of time, and their DR is being affected gravely as more and more flock to the Elderdark's banner. Llolth was destroyed by him for daring to harm his 'little brother' and having something to do with why the Fae were so gravely weakened and Arcadia itself was threatened, so the Drow are slowly being rehabilitated via various means. Added in another new goddess, Kitri, a LE Power of addiction and obsession, who's also cutting into Shar's ranks a bit, but with her habit of having worshippers who die off rather quickly due to their habits, she's not likely to rise much beyond Lesser Power. Obviously it's a far cry from 'canon' realms, but it's an interesting high-powered sort of Epic setting. Funnily though, most of the characters don't even have stats, and are poorly tracked even when they do. Can't even recall the last time a fight happened, since it's all mostly dialogue. Not for everyone I'm sure, but it works for us for the time being. :D
DM_Rennick 01-07-07, 12:20 PM	Well now, how have my Realms changed, Well to preface I'll say that my game is still very much in it's infancy, but already some things are different. The Campaign starts in the Year of the Lightning Storms (1374) and thus far: - I've not touched the Shades yet, and while I haven't mentioned the Shadow Weave to the PCs, I haven't said it doesn't exist. At some point I may use the Shades, but it will probably be at my own time instead of cannon. - While there are Elves and Elf-kin on Faerun, they haven't returned in full force. - Tilverton was not destroyed by the Shades but rather in a ritual (that no one, PC or NPC knows of) to bring the Dragon Goddess Tiamat to the material world. - My main Badguys are five warlords of varrying race known as the Dragon Lords (each using the prestige class of the same name from Dragon Magic) It's their goal to incite the Dragonfall wars and while now they are only acting covertly, soon they will gather together there armies and begin an invasion of the sword coast. - Waterdeep will be the site of a major battle, whether or not the city is sacked depends on the PCs. - Barovia and Castle Ravenloft exist in Faerun, but on the southeast end of the Spine (roughly near the Marches and Mithril Hall) instead of in Damara. I moved the location because I want to focus my campaign on the coast line with Cormyr as the southeastern end of the focus. That's all for now.
MerrikCale 01-08-07, 04:33 PM	I've gotten rid of all the bad guys. They're just so mean
MaskedOne 01-08-07, 07:24 PM	Where to begin... ditched the Shades, Shadow Weave, and most of the stuff in Serpent Kingdoms with the Sarukkh (or however that's spelled) to start, along with the Cormyr novel line series, since I like Azoun IV far too much to have him die by anything other than old age. Blended in a lot of elements of White Wolf's old World of Darkness, namely some transplanted Sphere Mages, Faeries, and the odd Garou, only making the Fae far more center stage and powerful than they were in the Storyteller system, essentially reverting them back to True Fae. Sphere Mages I've kept pretty much as is, except for ditching the whole paradox thing, replacing it with a sort of weave backlash where Mystra slaps them on the noggin for their arrogance and having them really surprised when that 'standard wizard' hands them their arse with their 'static' magic. Garou... well... holy warriors who've converted to worshipping Chauntea and Selune, but otherwise the same holy terrors they were in the Storyteller system. OK, I'm amused now. By the way, did you drop in a couple Technocrats and if so how are they getting along in a highly magical world?
Stigger 01-08-07, 08:26 PM	A few Crats... mostly Iteration X (non-borg types) and Progenitors, with the random MiB and Syndicate type. Kinda going through this whole 'rediscover the roots' thing with them with a long lost skyrigger crash site and a few journals. Kinda fun watching them try to do something like reforming the Order of Reason and running afoul of the local fireball-hurlers. But on the bright side, Gond can indeed give meaning to even the most banal of Crats, and where he can't, Waukeen usually does the trick. :D
BrennonGoldeye 01-12-07, 10:24 AM	OK, I got Gond and Waukeen.... :mage: <-----Casts comprehend languages..... Still didn't help...... ;)
Stigger 01-12-07, 08:16 PM	Gives me an idea for a spell along the lines of 'Comprehend Jargon'... but I have a feeling every artisan in the realms would eviscerate me if their clients could actually understand what they were saying... could cut into their profit margins if people understood that they just needed a 2cp widget to fix their problems. :D
Karsus the Mad 01-12-07, 08:51 PM	OK, I got Gond and Waukeen.... :mage: <-----Casts comprehend languages..... Still didn't help...... ;) At least you have Gond...you're at least 50% worthy to acknowledge:P I love Gond....
Bonzai 01-13-07, 12:13 AM	Bah... all you need is a bunch of techsmiths in black coats hunting down both arcane and divine casters. (lol, I loved Mage: the Ascention. It was a challenge to do well, but had incredible versatility. Haven't bothered to try the new system).
MarkusTay63 01-13-07, 12:04 PM	I try to have magic and tech interfere with each other. I stole the concept from a computer game called Arcanum. Tech items have a chance to malfunction around powerful magic (over lev5) and Spells have a chance to fail depending how complex the machinery is. Arcane Mechanix can mix the two, and that is also lifted from another system. So far the only place with those is Lantan, and they're also the only place with tech that can intefere with spells. Fortunately none of this is close enough to the 'core' to cause much of a stir (so far).
BrennonGoldeye 01-13-07, 09:55 PM	At least you have Gond...you're at least 50% worthy to acknowledge:P I love Gond.... What's not to love about a guy that can teach you gnomish and keep Malar in a headlock...:)
kelcimer 01-15-07, 04:01 PM	I took a closer look at Thay and surrounding area. Didn't seem right that Thay is always trying to conquer Rashemen and Aglarond, but conveniently ignores Thesk. So I decided that sometime in the past decade or so Thay conquered both Thesk and Narfell. Telflamm has not been conquered because Telflamm is much to cool of a city to be conquered by Thay. There's other reasons, but that's the big one for me. Now it makes sense to me for Rashemen to really be beleaguered by Thay. It's aided by the fact that Thay is busy in the process of absorbing Thesk and Narfell. Thesk has been easier for it. The Great Dale no longer exists in my realms. I haven't previously acknowledged it in my realms so for my own purposes I'm saying that it never existed. Who carves a swath through a forest like that anyway? I photoshoped Rawlinswood and Forest of Lethyr together for my map purposes. Uthmere still exists, but there's no road from it to Kront.
Karsus the Mad 01-15-07, 09:30 PM	What's not to love about a guy that can teach you gnomish and keep Malar in a headlock...:) So True! I never even thought of the headlock...ack...+1 for my love of Gond...damn, is there anything he can't do with a sledge and a target skull?:D