How much is a LOT [Archive] - Wizards Community

How much is a LOT [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Ladern
03-11-05, 11:35 PM I have read many of the Posts here and i have realized that since the aparition of the Epic levels many people has characters over 20 level.

I'm DMring a group of persons that are really excited with this also, but im worried that they also will want to get a 35 level character.

In my opinion a character must rise in level until 20 normally and then rise in epic levels with more difficulty as they attain the uppermost level that any normal being can attain. But what do you think?

I may be seen as an old, boring, not in my D&D table DM; but i think that all has a begining and an end, and playing a character from 1st to 20 level must be enough time for a campaing, i dont really like that "time open" campaings that last until all the players (and i mean players no characters) die; where one can destroy all the powerfull beings of all the planes and have killed the -torrasques of 27 diferent reallities.

Im i wrong or not, what do you think about having lost of epic levels? And if you have players like that what kind of Challenges will you throw to them?
warlockco
03-12-05, 12:20 AM My players have fun, whether it is 1st level or 35th level, because the main focus of any game I run is for everyone to have fun.
I run a hard but fair, and fun game.
And one thing that all my players know if their character is more powerful than the rest of the party, they are at the top of the target selection queue, even if it means running past another target at times.

There are some people that I do control what they can obtain or have, while others I give them anything they want as long as they can come up with a good background story (I have a munchkin in my group).
createvmind
03-13-05, 09:14 PM I personally have never made it past 15th lvl and enjoy looking forward to doing so, as a DM I've never had pcs go past 16=17 because the story of the game ended there. I know many who play epic games and it appears they just slay everything in existence and have aquired every weapon/artifact there is to find...doesnt sound fun or challenging to me at all. But I hope one day to DM a game where players make it to 20 or higher so I can finally use something from the epic book :)
Lord Karsus
03-13-05, 09:27 PM I've never gone epic. The highest I've gone was level 20. Sadly, we thought we could challenge an enclave of Ancient Great Wyrms. We didn't win, however...

Playing a high level campaign is much, much fun. I am sure that DMing a high level campaign is fun as well. The players have access to all kinds of cool magical items. If I remember correctly, a 20th level character should have about 500,000 GP worth of stuff. The DM should also have a good time. With high level campaigns, they can throw in all sorts of really cool, tough monsters.
Krevon
03-14-05, 01:07 AM In all hoesty, by the time a character reaches 20th lvl. the lifespan should be at a point to where they are ready to retire from adventuring and become the ungodly NPC that the low lvl rogue thinks he can steal from. Or be the leader of a community that sends out the new generation of adventurers to thiers deaths (maniacle dm laugh).

Yet these are my opinions so take them for what you will.
JWSIII
03-14-05, 05:32 AM Personally, I ran a campaign with players that all started at 1st level and ended between 26th and 33rd I believe (depending mostly on attendence rates). At that point, with average group level about 30, I found that I could not put together a remotely realistic and enjoyable adventure. Their last major campign segment had involved invading the "locked" abyssal plane of a demon lord and then invading his personal stronghold to recover the stolen wyrmskull thrown; I had to make leveled Balors and other leveled CR 18-23 base demons a fairly common challenge, which i found to notably cheapen them; having a balor an standard type encounter just feels wrong. They wanted to keep going after that, but I threw out the campaign in disgust at that point; I am not opposed to epic levels per se, but since most BBEG's top out at CR 25 or so (heck, the new wendonai, who was fairly instrumental in the crown wars, for crying out loud, has a CR about equal to any one of the players once lvl 25 or so), it made the games mystery seem cheapened; up till about CR 23 I can keep the feeling of forgotten realms alive, after that, my games devolve into a numbers game.

I don't think the problem is epic levels, however, I think it is making the generals of the blood war CR 18-23, and the frikkin' arch-devils CR 30-35. A lord of hell should have a CR greater, imo, than the 40 or so top wizards in the forgotten realms, otherwise, it takes numerous rediculous monsters to challenge a party much into the epic levels. I don't think thye should alter the epic system, I like it, I think they should strceth the monsters so that the system has a wide range of creatures CR 1-35 or so, with the true badies like arch-devils and great wyrm dragons in the CR 35-50 range.
Krevon
03-14-05, 11:31 AM Thats a good point, but are there really that many creatues of that power an magnitude? I don't think there would be. Due to demons choatic nature, they tend be self destructive anyway. So with that being said, it's extremely hard to find something to give the players experiance with. It takes a lot a of time for a Balor to reach maturity, same said for the Ancient Wyrns. Hence the name ancient.

By the way, how would a PC be by the time they reached wpic lvls. If you to go that route, keep track of age and apply the penalties accordingly.
Cthulhu
03-14-05, 04:39 PM Your not wrong Ladern or outdated in your beliefs. Different tables can and should have different ideas of what constitutes an epic campaign. At my table my games typically crawl up to about 10th before we retire them. Thats Epic for us. Other people like to push the limit well past 20th. Now I wouldn't mind playing in such a game, but gods forbid I have to run the monstrosity!

On top of that the term "Epic" means different things to people. To a lot of players Epic just means cool new abilities and foes and otherwise continuing the dungeon-delving adventurer's career for as long as possible. To others (like me) it means building empires, raising great world spanning churchs, and bringing real change to the campaign world (which you can do quite well at 13th level). Which is the more Epic?
FearzThug
03-14-05, 05:21 PM Dicefreaks!
Krevon
03-14-05, 05:28 PM Midgets bent on world domination......thats "Epic"
Sorry I feel the need to make a joke every now and again.

As a DM I've used old characters my players use to help enrich their world....such as I had a player who played a drow assassin who took power and runs a government through a front man......I give hints in later games that events might be manipulated by him...(manipulated by a drow...never!)
Or at the beging the low lvl pc's town is being destroyed by a dragon and the old party that they've played comes in and stops it, giving the players motivation to adventure.

Then theres my favorite is the old wizard becomes 1/2 crazy and accidently casts geas on someone to find an object that he hid 50 years ago....(they were kinda angry with me at first but liked it due to some of the crazy stuff i would do).
Aluroon
03-14-05, 05:44 PM Personally, I ran a campaign with players that all started at 1st level and ended between 26th and 33rd I believe (depending mostly on attendence rates). At that point, with average group level about 30, I found that I could not put together a remotely realistic and enjoyable adventure. Their last major campign segment had involved invading the "locked" abyssal plane of a demon lord and then invading his personal stronghold to recover the stolen wyrmskull thrown; I had to make leveled Balors and other leveled CR 18-23 base demons a fairly common challenge, which i found to notably cheapen them; having a balor an standard type encounter just feels wrong. They wanted to keep going after that, but I threw out the campaign in disgust at that point; I am not opposed to epic levels per se, but since most BBEG's top out at CR 25 or so (heck, the new wendonai, who was fairly instrumental in the crown wars, for crying out loud, has a CR about equal to any one of the players once lvl 25 or so), it made the games mystery seem cheapened; up till about CR 23 I can keep the feeling of forgotten realms alive, after that, my games devolve into a numbers game.

I don't think the problem is epic levels, however, I think it is making the generals of the blood war CR 18-23, and the frikkin' arch-devils CR 30-35. A lord of hell should have a CR greater, imo, than the 40 or so top wizards in the forgotten realms, otherwise, it takes numerous rediculous monsters to challenge a party much into the epic levels. I don't think thye should alter the epic system, I like it, I think they should strceth the monsters so that the system has a wide range of creatures CR 1-35 or so, with the true badies like arch-devils and great wyrm dragons in the CR 35-50 range.

My friend, maybe you should check out dicefreaks (http://community.dicefreaks.com). If you want CR 41-60+ archdevils. Note however that the site isn't at its best right now as they are getting ready to swich over to a new site. If you get an error message just refresh.

Aluroon
JWSIII
03-15-05, 01:16 AM Thanks Aluroon, I will do so, appreciate the reply :D
BrianCritchley
03-15-05, 02:09 AM I've never run an eopic level game, and within reason I hope for my game to reach that. at 20th level IMHO it's time to break out the epic elvels but it's also time to slowly work towards a conclusion.

remember eventually a hero is gonna wana take up non-adventureing responsiabilities. perhaps simply retiring to a farm to raise kids, or becoming a mighty king..
Aluroon
03-16-05, 04:00 PM I've never run an eopic level game, and within reason I hope for my game to reach that. at 20th level IMHO it's time to break out the epic elvels but it's also time to slowly work towards a conclusion.

remember eventually a hero is gonna wana take up non-adventureing responsiabilities. perhaps simply retiring to a farm to raise kids, or becoming a mighty king..

I disagree with you on this point.

My first contention is that there is a character above 15th level has begun to play a major part in faerun.
-Sub contention A. A character at or above 15th level has gained power to match that of most any being in faerun, chosen, and a handful of dragons/lichs being the few excepted. As such they have begun to change the face of faerun, and as such it is unlikely that they will be unable to retire from the spotlight without notice. They have become too influential to simply disappear without notice. They simply have too many responsibilities.
-Sub contention B. A character of that level has many enemies. By the time a character of 15th level or higher decides to retire, he/she has likely made many enemies. It is unlikely that such enemies will leave them unmolested for long, especially if the character decides to drop his guard or start a family. It is for this reason I feel that some high level characters don't retire from adventuring. They are afraid to lower there guard. Furthermore a family is likely to never be left alone. Few characters wish to allow an attack upon those they love. Hence they keep moving.

With that in mind I end rest my case for now.

Aluroon
kliate
03-16-05, 04:58 PM One thing to remember at any time is the fact that as characters grow in levels, the number of balors, pit fiends and archfiends doesn't grow with them (although if for some reason it actually did, that might make an interesting story arc...)

Depending on the setting, and the area within the setting, a character might be able to go through levels 1-10 without having to travel very far at all (this is the mindset with which I designed my previous campaign). Once they've hit the highest level that the setting can easily support, however, they will be faced with a choice - either retire, or move out in search of greater challenges.

Applying a similar mindset to epic-level challenges, a Balor or Pit Fiend may well be one of the few core creatures that can easily challenge the party - however you don't need to use 100 different copies of the same creature against the party over the course of a single day. The archfiend or BBEG that the PCs are pursuing at epic levels may well have a number of "immortal" followers who can return to fight another day even after being destroyed by the party. Nemesis' such as Demiliches will be able to create and summon vast amounts of undead to help them put down the characters who threaten their plans.

In the past, such a BBEG may have used weak minions without fear of repurcussion from heroic types (or out of fear of attracting undue attention to themselves) - but the emergence of epic PCs is nearly always cause for such entities to reconsider their plans and stop pulling their punches. Half-fiendish lieutenants of level 16+ may start showing up on a regular basis as a sign to the PCs that their new opponents are stronger than the last ones. The epic villain may begin to consider seeking to control creatures that he/she would not have risked seeking out in the past, just to cover themselves.

IMHO, the key to providing epic challenges all lies in the epic villains. Making them able to adapt to the powers of an epic party is no small matter. Keeping them believable can be all but impossible. Still, when a DM can pull it off, it's going to be something to remember.

Ultimately, the point at which a game begins to break down depends on both the setting and the DM. Some DMs can scale a campaign from level 1-40 without needing so much as a pause. Others may run dry before the party hits 5th level. In the end, just remember that you're here to enjoy the game, not delve into the depths of narcissistic DMing insanity.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Ladern 03-11-05, 11:35 PM	I have read many of the Posts here and i have realized that since the aparition of the Epic levels many people has characters over 20 level. I'm DMring a group of persons that are really excited with this also, but im worried that they also will want to get a 35 level character. In my opinion a character must rise in level until 20 normally and then rise in epic levels with more difficulty as they attain the uppermost level that any normal being can attain. But what do you think? I may be seen as an old, boring, not in my D&D table DM; but i think that all has a begining and an end, and playing a character from 1st to 20 level must be enough time for a campaing, i dont really like that "time open" campaings that last until all the players (and i mean players no characters) die; where one can destroy all the powerfull beings of all the planes and have killed the -torrasques of 27 diferent reallities. Im i wrong or not, what do you think about having lost of epic levels? And if you have players like that what kind of Challenges will you throw to them?
warlockco 03-12-05, 12:20 AM	My players have fun, whether it is 1st level or 35th level, because the main focus of any game I run is for everyone to have fun. I run a hard but fair, and fun game. And one thing that all my players know if their character is more powerful than the rest of the party, they are at the top of the target selection queue, even if it means running past another target at times. There are some people that I do control what they can obtain or have, while others I give them anything they want as long as they can come up with a good background story (I have a munchkin in my group).
createvmind 03-13-05, 09:14 PM	I personally have never made it past 15th lvl and enjoy looking forward to doing so, as a DM I've never had pcs go past 16=17 because the story of the game ended there. I know many who play epic games and it appears they just slay everything in existence and have aquired every weapon/artifact there is to find...doesnt sound fun or challenging to me at all. But I hope one day to DM a game where players make it to 20 or higher so I can finally use something from the epic book :)
Lord Karsus 03-13-05, 09:27 PM	I've never gone epic. The highest I've gone was level 20. Sadly, we thought we could challenge an enclave of Ancient Great Wyrms. We didn't win, however... Playing a high level campaign is much, much fun. I am sure that DMing a high level campaign is fun as well. The players have access to all kinds of cool magical items. If I remember correctly, a 20th level character should have about 500,000 GP worth of stuff. The DM should also have a good time. With high level campaigns, they can throw in all sorts of really cool, tough monsters.
Krevon 03-14-05, 01:07 AM	In all hoesty, by the time a character reaches 20th lvl. the lifespan should be at a point to where they are ready to retire from adventuring and become the ungodly NPC that the low lvl rogue thinks he can steal from. Or be the leader of a community that sends out the new generation of adventurers to thiers deaths (maniacle dm laugh). Yet these are my opinions so take them for what you will.
JWSIII 03-14-05, 05:32 AM	Personally, I ran a campaign with players that all started at 1st level and ended between 26th and 33rd I believe (depending mostly on attendence rates). At that point, with average group level about 30, I found that I could not put together a remotely realistic and enjoyable adventure. Their last major campign segment had involved invading the "locked" abyssal plane of a demon lord and then invading his personal stronghold to recover the stolen wyrmskull thrown; I had to make leveled Balors and other leveled CR 18-23 base demons a fairly common challenge, which i found to notably cheapen them; having a balor an standard type encounter just feels wrong. They wanted to keep going after that, but I threw out the campaign in disgust at that point; I am not opposed to epic levels per se, but since most BBEG's top out at CR 25 or so (heck, the new wendonai, who was fairly instrumental in the crown wars, for crying out loud, has a CR about equal to any one of the players once lvl 25 or so), it made the games mystery seem cheapened; up till about CR 23 I can keep the feeling of forgotten realms alive, after that, my games devolve into a numbers game. I don't think the problem is epic levels, however, I think it is making the generals of the blood war CR 18-23, and the frikkin' arch-devils CR 30-35. A lord of hell should have a CR greater, imo, than the 40 or so top wizards in the forgotten realms, otherwise, it takes numerous rediculous monsters to challenge a party much into the epic levels. I don't think thye should alter the epic system, I like it, I think they should strceth the monsters so that the system has a wide range of creatures CR 1-35 or so, with the true badies like arch-devils and great wyrm dragons in the CR 35-50 range.
Krevon 03-14-05, 11:31 AM	Thats a good point, but are there really that many creatues of that power an magnitude? I don't think there would be. Due to demons choatic nature, they tend be self destructive anyway. So with that being said, it's extremely hard to find something to give the players experiance with. It takes a lot a of time for a Balor to reach maturity, same said for the Ancient Wyrns. Hence the name ancient. By the way, how would a PC be by the time they reached wpic lvls. If you to go that route, keep track of age and apply the penalties accordingly.
Cthulhu 03-14-05, 04:39 PM	Your not wrong Ladern or outdated in your beliefs. Different tables can and should have different ideas of what constitutes an epic campaign. At my table my games typically crawl up to about 10th before we retire them. Thats Epic for us. Other people like to push the limit well past 20th. Now I wouldn't mind playing in such a game, but gods forbid I have to run the monstrosity! On top of that the term "Epic" means different things to people. To a lot of players Epic just means cool new abilities and foes and otherwise continuing the dungeon-delving adventurer's career for as long as possible. To others (like me) it means building empires, raising great world spanning churchs, and bringing real change to the campaign world (which you can do quite well at 13th level). Which is the more Epic?
FearzThug 03-14-05, 05:21 PM	Dicefreaks!
Krevon 03-14-05, 05:28 PM	Midgets bent on world domination......thats "Epic" Sorry I feel the need to make a joke every now and again. As a DM I've used old characters my players use to help enrich their world....such as I had a player who played a drow assassin who took power and runs a government through a front man......I give hints in later games that events might be manipulated by him...(manipulated by a drow...never!) Or at the beging the low lvl pc's town is being destroyed by a dragon and the old party that they've played comes in and stops it, giving the players motivation to adventure. Then theres my favorite is the old wizard becomes 1/2 crazy and accidently casts geas on someone to find an object that he hid 50 years ago....(they were kinda angry with me at first but liked it due to some of the crazy stuff i would do).
Aluroon 03-14-05, 05:44 PM	Personally, I ran a campaign with players that all started at 1st level and ended between 26th and 33rd I believe (depending mostly on attendence rates). At that point, with average group level about 30, I found that I could not put together a remotely realistic and enjoyable adventure. Their last major campign segment had involved invading the "locked" abyssal plane of a demon lord and then invading his personal stronghold to recover the stolen wyrmskull thrown; I had to make leveled Balors and other leveled CR 18-23 base demons a fairly common challenge, which i found to notably cheapen them; having a balor an standard type encounter just feels wrong. They wanted to keep going after that, but I threw out the campaign in disgust at that point; I am not opposed to epic levels per se, but since most BBEG's top out at CR 25 or so (heck, the new wendonai, who was fairly instrumental in the crown wars, for crying out loud, has a CR about equal to any one of the players once lvl 25 or so), it made the games mystery seem cheapened; up till about CR 23 I can keep the feeling of forgotten realms alive, after that, my games devolve into a numbers game. I don't think the problem is epic levels, however, I think it is making the generals of the blood war CR 18-23, and the frikkin' arch-devils CR 30-35. A lord of hell should have a CR greater, imo, than the 40 or so top wizards in the forgotten realms, otherwise, it takes numerous rediculous monsters to challenge a party much into the epic levels. I don't think thye should alter the epic system, I like it, I think they should strceth the monsters so that the system has a wide range of creatures CR 1-35 or so, with the true badies like arch-devils and great wyrm dragons in the CR 35-50 range. My friend, maybe you should check out dicefreaks (http://community.dicefreaks.com). If you want CR 41-60+ archdevils. Note however that the site isn't at its best right now as they are getting ready to swich over to a new site. If you get an error message just refresh. Aluroon
JWSIII 03-15-05, 01:16 AM	Thanks Aluroon, I will do so, appreciate the reply :D
BrianCritchley 03-15-05, 02:09 AM	I've never run an eopic level game, and within reason I hope for my game to reach that. at 20th level IMHO it's time to break out the epic elvels but it's also time to slowly work towards a conclusion. remember eventually a hero is gonna wana take up non-adventureing responsiabilities. perhaps simply retiring to a farm to raise kids, or becoming a mighty king..
Aluroon 03-16-05, 04:00 PM	I've never run an eopic level game, and within reason I hope for my game to reach that. at 20th level IMHO it's time to break out the epic elvels but it's also time to slowly work towards a conclusion. remember eventually a hero is gonna wana take up non-adventureing responsiabilities. perhaps simply retiring to a farm to raise kids, or becoming a mighty king.. I disagree with you on this point. My first contention is that there is a character above 15th level has begun to play a major part in faerun. -Sub contention A. A character at or above 15th level has gained power to match that of most any being in faerun, chosen, and a handful of dragons/lichs being the few excepted. As such they have begun to change the face of faerun, and as such it is unlikely that they will be unable to retire from the spotlight without notice. They have become too influential to simply disappear without notice. They simply have too many responsibilities. -Sub contention B. A character of that level has many enemies. By the time a character of 15th level or higher decides to retire, he/she has likely made many enemies. It is unlikely that such enemies will leave them unmolested for long, especially if the character decides to drop his guard or start a family. It is for this reason I feel that some high level characters don't retire from adventuring. They are afraid to lower there guard. Furthermore a family is likely to never be left alone. Few characters wish to allow an attack upon those they love. Hence they keep moving. With that in mind I end rest my case for now. Aluroon
kliate 03-16-05, 04:58 PM	One thing to remember at any time is the fact that as characters grow in levels, the number of balors, pit fiends and archfiends doesn't grow with them (although if for some reason it actually did, that might make an interesting story arc...) Depending on the setting, and the area within the setting, a character might be able to go through levels 1-10 without having to travel very far at all (this is the mindset with which I designed my previous campaign). Once they've hit the highest level that the setting can easily support, however, they will be faced with a choice - either retire, or move out in search of greater challenges. Applying a similar mindset to epic-level challenges, a Balor or Pit Fiend may well be one of the few core creatures that can easily challenge the party - however you don't need to use 100 different copies of the same creature against the party over the course of a single day. The archfiend or BBEG that the PCs are pursuing at epic levels may well have a number of "immortal" followers who can return to fight another day even after being destroyed by the party. Nemesis' such as Demiliches will be able to create and summon vast amounts of undead to help them put down the characters who threaten their plans. In the past, such a BBEG may have used weak minions without fear of repurcussion from heroic types (or out of fear of attracting undue attention to themselves) - but the emergence of epic PCs is nearly always cause for such entities to reconsider their plans and stop pulling their punches. Half-fiendish lieutenants of level 16+ may start showing up on a regular basis as a sign to the PCs that their new opponents are stronger than the last ones. The epic villain may begin to consider seeking to control creatures that he/she would not have risked seeking out in the past, just to cover themselves. IMHO, the key to providing epic challenges all lies in the epic villains. Making them able to adapt to the powers of an epic party is no small matter. Keeping them believable can be all but impossible. Still, when a DM can pull it off, it's going to be something to remember. Ultimately, the point at which a game begins to break down depends on both the setting and the DM. Some DMs can scale a campaign from level 1-40 without needing so much as a pause. Others may run dry before the party hits 5th level. In the end, just remember that you're here to enjoy the game, not delve into the depths of narcissistic DMing insanity.