Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Silverpanther 08-11-05, 05:30 AM	i just need some opinions about that: for example an adamantine weapon costs (since 3.5) 3000 gp extra, heavy armor 15000 gp. that means i can get masses of adamantine full plates in any large city... but since adamantine is very rare per description (and the fact that artifacts like the golem armor give DR/adamantine) i think it should not be a run-of-the-mill product?! what do you think and how do you handle that in your campaigns?
Demetrios 08-11-05, 06:50 AM	i just need some opinions about that: for example an adamantine weapon costs (since 3.5) 3000 gp extra, heavy armor 15000 gp. that means i can get masses of adamantine full plates in any large city... but since adamantine is very rare per description (and the fact that artifacts like the golem armor give DR/adamantine) i think it should not be a run-of-the-mill product?! what do you think and how do you handle that in your campaigns? 15000 gp is no meagre sum! At that price, only the top-end armorers are going to either stock it or make it, since there won't be much of a market for armor at that price, as virtually no one will be able to afford it (bar free-spending adventurers!). It's the equivalent to high-end sports cars - sure, they are for sale, but not every dealership is going to stock them!
Another Gnome 08-11-05, 08:01 AM	Anything with a cost above 3,000 gp is not generally available, no matter where you're buying it. Availability of raw materials aside, crafting an adamantine full plate by a master armorsmith (say, an 11th-level dwarven expert with maxed ranks in Craft, Skill Focus, masterwork tools, and 14 Intelligence = +20 bonus on checks, so he could take 10 for each check with the increased difficulty option) would still take 15,000 / (30 x 28) = 18 weeks to craft the full plate component alone, and working on the material (like with any masterwork component) would take an additional 150,000 / (30 x 30) = 167 weeks, for a total of 3½ years.
Zanan 08-11-05, 09:31 AM	If you go by old descriptions of the Realms, adamantine (or adamantite back then) was more readily available within the Underdark, especially amongst the duergar and drow. At least they used it in significant numbers. I would expect that it is very rare indeed at the surface and even within Har'oloth, the best way to get it is off the corpse of a dead or soon-to-be dead opponent. Ororgs (RoF) are also said to be great miners and smiths, so you may add them to the list too. Alternatively, Magic of Faerûn offered a number of more readily available materials. Mithril is more common amongst the surfacers, especially the elves and dwarves ... who might still be the best sources for any other races.
dragonheart 08-11-05, 10:10 AM	its not stated anywhere but the properties of mithril make it very similar to a combination of chromium and titanium. Chromite (the ore) is fairly uncommon generally and almost always found as large lodes/ore veins in the rock. titantium ores (ilmenite and rutile) are very rare as lode/vein deposits but extremely common as placer ores (much of the black sands of my gold dredging are ilmenite). I would put mithril as a common material with a few restrictions - elves have recognized the fact that its common in placers and mine it from them. Dwarves, humans and orcs haven't caught on yet and are looking for the much rarer lode/vein deposits. Admantite is more like a cobalt & nickel mixture. these are both rarer than chromium/titanium and generally found in high temperature sulphide vein deposits. I would make admantite very rare and mostly found underground(in the underdark). it also may or maynot have a problem wiht sunlight which means it may have to be stabilized somehow for surface use. both would be rare commoditites in most cities with auctions held whenever ores or refined samples were brought in. If you have managed to aquire some of of dead bodies you could probably arrange a trade deal with any smith good enough to work the material. basically a two fer one or three fer one deal - he makes the items you want and gets 2 to 3 times the amount for his own use and you don't pay (much) for his time and work. some places (Mithril Hall) are at lode deposits and these places would throw out the above rules since they have an abundance. Similarly nearby trading centers (Silverymoon and ?Waterdeep?) would be getting fairly regular supplies for such mining centers and would have set price ranges for the materials.
Darkon Slayer 08-11-05, 12:25 PM	Anything with a cost above 3,000 gp is not generally available, no matter where you're buying it. Availability of raw materials aside, crafting an adamantine full plate by a master armorsmith (say, an 11th-level dwarven expert with maxed ranks in Craft, Skill Focus, masterwork tools, and 14 Intelligence = +20 bonus on checks, so he could take 10 for each check with the increased difficulty option) would still take 15,000 / (30 x 28) = 18 weeks to craft the full plate component alone, and working on the material (like with any masterwork component) would take an additional 150,000 / (30 x 30) = 167 weeks, for a total of 3½ years. but you forget that taking 3 1/2 years to make a suit of armor is not problem for Dwarves and elves. Humans would be the ones in the rush!
Silverpanther 08-11-05, 03:33 PM	excuse me, could you explain that calculation-example once again?! either did i read it wrong (i have the german translatin of the 3.5 DMG) or those guys translated it wrong. i do not understand why 150,000 and (30 x 30) -------------------------------------------------------------------------- oh, sure, you have to take it in silver pieces... and where is that rule with increased difficulty printed? so i take the "masterwork" component of adamantine (DC20) and can add the ten there, too? thank you, your explanation has been much better then the one in my book ;)
Palmate 08-11-05, 04:04 PM	IMC I have heavy restrictions on special materials, while they do fall in line with the allowable gold piece for a given city, I create "special" locations with in the realms, so out of the way place with a smith that has the legendary ability to work XXXX. something like that, I make it so once they find out about it they have to go there, perhaps perform a quest or some task, and then they have to wait... maybe even travel to get the raw ors/ materials. Then they have to wait more, this makes the time fly, gives them personal goals, and makes the items feel reallt rare and special. It also becomes a great reward for a patron to grant, i.e. you can have items made of XXXX at a 5% mark up and time for them to create... or what ever. In addition if some one creates a new character then there is a 1% per character level to start with one item made of a special material (7th level character = 7%) Just cause it is written doesn't make it so... Palmate
Dielzen 08-11-05, 04:44 PM	Adamantine Heavy armor = 15k Full Plate = 1,500gp So Adamantine Full Plate costs 16,500gp Craft Skill: Step 1 - Price in Silver = 165,000 silver Step 2 - Craft DC = 18 Step 3 - pay 1/3 (5,300 gp) in raw materials Step 4 - Make DC to do one week of work, multiply DC by Check result to get the amount of progress (in Silver) Adding 10 to the DC makes it a 28 DC (and allows for faster completion as per Step 4) Taking 10 with a +20 = 30 check * 28 DC = 840 sp in 1 week 165,000 silver divided by 840 silver = 196.4 weeks (at 52 to a year, that's just shy of 4 years) Since the material acts as MW, you don't have to craft a MW component seperately, it's all one "series" of checks.
Dielzen 08-12-05, 01:11 AM	an 11th-level dwarven expert with maxed ranks in Craft, Skill Focus, masterwork tools, and 14 Intelligence = +20 bonus on checks 11th level = 14 Ranks Dwarf = +2 racial bonus on stone/metal Skill Focus = +3 MW tools = +2 14 Int = +2 That's +23 actually =) And, given the character at level, in a FR campaign, you could easily assume they'd own a pair of Tongs of the Armorcrafter (from Races of Faerun) since they only cost 2k gold roughly, which replace the MW Tools, instead providing a +10 circ bonus, for a total mod of +31 With those tongs, they could bump the DC by +20 to 38, and take 10 Taking 10 with a +31 = 41 check * 38 DC = 1,558 sp in a week 165,000 silver divided by 1,558 silver = 105.9 weeks (just over 2 years)
Preternatural 08-12-05, 01:53 AM	Is it possible for an apprentice smith or two to help the master smith, say with the aid another action or something similar?
Dark_beebles 08-12-05, 04:51 AM	Also remember most dwarfs have special forges...they gives examples of them in the Races of stone book. Plus the +20 skill item in Mof for armor and weapon smithing is cheap specially if the Smith can afford to have adamantine, and mithril and has the skill to work it. He was asking how rare..tho, And agree with the guy about the high end sport cars..you can find them, but not every city, or dealership (in this case smith) is gonna have lying around. Besides, fabricate is the way to go if you want any weapon or armor out of mithril or adamantin..1 cast and 2 skill rolls and your done in 6 secs not 3 years.
Another Gnome 08-12-05, 07:06 AM	That's +23 actually =) Great. I did some half a dozen versions of the numbers (one including the tongs of the armorer), double-checked the one finally posted, and still managed to get it wrong... :embarrass At any rate, I'm not quite buying that a special material can be crafted more easily (DC-wise) than a regular masterwork suit.
Silverpanther 08-12-05, 08:45 AM	yeah, but the question of pretenatural is indeed one i thought about on the way back home ;) let`s say this master smith has 10 apprentices all succeding on their role against DC 10... would he get a +20 for that week ;) and is it possible to increase the DC not only by 10 but by 20?
Dielzen 08-12-05, 03:52 PM	and is it possible to increase the DC not only by 10 but by 20? The 2nd example I gave used a +20 bump. It's listed in the Epic rules as an option for skill usage, but given that it has no requirements of Epic to do it, anyone can do it, provided they have the mod (or like to take risks)
Dielzen 08-12-05, 03:54 PM	At any rate, I'm not quite buying that a special material can be crafted more easily (DC-wise) than a regular masterwork suit. From the SRD: Adamantine: This ultrahard metal adds to the quality of a weapon or suit of armor. Weapons fashioned from adamantine have a natural ability to bypass hardness when sundering weapons or attacking objects, ignoring hardness less than 20. Armor made from adamantine grants its wearer damage reduction of 1/– if it’s light armor, 2/– if it’s medium armor, and 3/– if it’s heavy armor. Adamantine is so costly that weapons and armor made from it are always of masterwork quality; the masterwork cost is included in the prices given below. Thus, adamantine weapons and ammunition have a +1 enhancement bonus on attack rolls, and the armor check penalty of adamantine armor is lessened by 1 compared to ordinary armor of its type. Items without metal parts cannot be made from adamantine. An arrow could be made of adamantine, but a quarterstaff could not. Only weapons, armor, and shields normally made of metal can be fashioned from adamantine. Weapons, armor and shields normally made of steel that are made of adamantine have one-third more hit points than normal. Adamantine has 40 hit points per inch of thickness and hardness 20.
Purple Dragon Knight 08-13-05, 02:55 AM	11th level = 14 Ranks Dwarf = +2 racial bonus on stone/metal Skill Focus = +3 MW tools = +2 14 Int = +2 That's +23 actually =) And, given the character at level, in a FR campaign, you could easily assume they'd own a pair of Tongs of the Armorcrafter (from Races of Faerun) since they only cost 2k gold roughly, which replace the MW Tools, instead providing a +10 circ bonus, for a total mod of +31 With those tongs, they could bump the DC by +20 to 38, and take 10 Taking 10 with a +31 = 41 check * 38 DC = 1,558 sp in a week 165,000 silver divided by 1,558 silver = 105.9 weeks (just over 2 years) I'd use a total bonus to +33 as I would stack the MW tool bonus to the +10 COMPETENCE bonus to Craft given by the Tongs... Also, from Races of Faerun: --> Hammer of the Weaponsmith: +10 CIRCUMSTANCE bonus to Craft (now, call it "Hammer of the Armorer" and the above +33 becomes +43, because CIRCUMSTANCE and COMPETENCE stack...) --> now, we have 53 * 48 = 2544... we're down to 65 weeks baby... yeah! (now someone, find us something cool from Races of Stone, as I don't own that book... :) )
Silverpanther 08-13-05, 08:19 AM	so, we can raise the DC up to 20... can we go even higher?
Dielzen 08-13-05, 09:06 AM	so, we can raise the DC up to 20... can we go even higher? You can do +100 if you want, or any other multiple of 10. Check Skills in the Epic Level section of the SRD.
Silverpanther 08-13-05, 09:15 AM	nice :) but i should still keep my modifier over the DC for being able to take 10, right ;)
Dielzen 08-13-05, 09:19 AM	I'd use a total bonus to +33 as I would stack the MW tool bonus to the +10 COMPETENCE bonus to Craft given by the Tongs... Also, from Races of Faerun: --> Hammer of the Weaponsmith: +10 CIRCUMSTANCE bonus to Craft (now, call it "Hammer of the Armorer" and the above +33 becomes +43, because CIRCUMSTANCE and COMPETENCE stack...) --> now, we have 53 * 48 = 2544... we're down to 65 weeks baby... yeah! (now someone, find us something cool from Races of Stone, as I don't own that book... :) ) Ah, yes, the Tongs are competence, I missed that...so it'd be +33 Now I know circ usually stacks, but you're combining multiple bonuses for special tools, and in games that I run, wouldn't stack. Just a personal opinion/houserule, of course. But saying you get +20 to eat cause you've got a +10 plate and a +10 fork is a tad odd to me.
Silverpanther 08-13-05, 09:31 AM	hey, does anybody know better craftsmen (is that the right term?) than the urdunnir (orecutter dwarfs)? don`t think that it is TOO hard to imagine that maybe in a large settlement of them maybe one or two not-that-arrogant sun elves (and yes, i still believe they exist :D ) live there... for working with glass-steel :) ok, maybe i am a little too convenient... but that would be a place where all special materials and experts are together :plotting: talking about glassteel, i am sure that i read something about a human kingdom in the south (?) of faerun, where the soldiers wear armor made out of glass... so is it possible that avariel and sun elves are not the only people with the kno-how of crafting glasstell equipment?
conjurer_lord 08-13-05, 10:27 PM	I would put mithril as a common material with a few restrictions - elves have recognized the fact that its common in placers and mine it from them. Dwarves, humans and orcs haven't caught on yet and are looking for the much rarer lode/vein deposits. While I agree with everything else that you've said, I cannot agree with elves knowing more about mining than dwarves. I can see how elves would figured this out, but dwarves must have as well.