Post/Author/DateTime	Post
orinbalenovic 04-29-04, 05:06 PM	I thought of a devious idea this afternoon :devil: . Imagine a party of goody goody paladin(s) and clerics of Selune. And now imagine among them a cleric of Shar, yes you heard correctly. Working with them, and at the same time spying for the church of Shar. Fun, isn’t it?:schemes: I don't usually do this sort of thing (planning ahead how to derail a campaign), but I must admit its fun. Especially if you have a guy playing with you who usually plays LAWFULL GOOD PALADIN OF TORM WHO IS SO RIGHTEOUS THAT HE CAN TURN NEUTRAL (sorry, I got a bit carried away), or he plays some sort of noble savage - barbarian bard with maxed diplomacy and that kind of stuff. The thing is, if we (me and one of my co-players) played things right, I bet the rest of the players would swallow the story hook, line and sinker. Of course, once they found out who we really are, our goose would pretty much be cooked, but it would be well worth it. Now, how would we stay undercover? First of all for the alignment: undetectable alignment (or misdirection). Spontaneous casting....here's a clw from the wand (hey, I'm not spending that spell, I might need it later), for higher levels, I'd just have lo learn heal (I could maybe take a couple levels of mystic theurge to compensate). Turn undead, hm...first thing (and only, so far) that comes to mind is control undead, or just take Cha as my dump stat and say "I'm not even going to bother". Anything else? As for the domain, I found it a bit odd that Shar doesn't have trickery domain, so maybe I'd take knowledge and cavern and think up some plausible story why I have those. Or I could do it more elaborate and take Eshowdow as my deity and skip the explanations, since (and I'm willing to put my GP's on it) no one of my players know who/what that is. Naturally, I would have to get my DM to agree to everything above. I must seem like a hand-rubbing villain, don’t I? Good, because I'm feeling so eeeevil right now! :devil: :D So, do I have all the angles covered? No? But that's where you come in my minions HAHAHAHAHA! <grabbing the air>
AvengedMutablegenus 04-29-04, 05:23 PM	Doesn't sound THAT cool, i mean, i guess it's sort of a good idea, but the paladins "Evil Radar's" and the clerics divinations would set it off
Falstaff the Fighter 04-30-04, 02:19 PM	I must seem like a hand-rubbing villain, don’t I? Good, because I'm feeling so eeeevil right now! Actually, you seem like an jerk (Stronger expletive desired but not allowed.). If I ever found out one of my players was purposefully plotting on derailing my campaign and trying to intently screw over his fellow players, his butt would be dropped from my campaign like a ton of bricks.
orinbalenovic 04-30-04, 07:05 PM	Actually, you seem like an jerk (Stronger expletive desired but not allowed.). If I ever found out one of my players was purposefully plotting on derailing my campaign and trying to intently screw over his fellow players, his butt would be dropped from my campaign like a ton of bricks. But I'm not in your campaign, am I? First of all, the things I spoke of are hypothetical and entirely unlikely to happen because we have an unwritten rule that we can't mix good and evil characters in our party. Secondly, I would NEVER dream of doing something like this without DM's consent (which he'd never give for something like that anyway). And as for screwing over my fellow players, I just tried to see how much I could get from the rules, if after couple of sessions they don't get the clues (which are bound to appear before them), then they re just not paying attention. Take this example for instance: A demon possesses one of the characters (DM informs the player of it and instructs him to behave differently, and he does so). This character then does something really nasty. If the other players ignore it then they're just plain dumb, if they just kill him outright, then they are just bad players. If they, on the other hand, try to find out what's wrong with their friend by using magic or whatever, then I'd consider them good players. So, what does that make the DM and the possessed one then? SOBs who are trying to derail the campaign? I don't think so, certainly not if that was the plot element. Besides, I always thougt of D&D as <gasp> role playing, not just killing the monsters and saving the world. And I think, that if allowed, the things mentioned above would be quite a challenge for a "role" player.
Helfax 05-03-04, 02:01 PM	Know what, that does sound like fun. Don't listen to these party poopers. It's good to break out of the bubble of always saving the captured princess and riding off in the sunset with the 100 gp reward. Gets boring after a while. Why not be the evil guy, or the greedy neutralite? You take the job to go rescue the captured princess just for the rewards and xp. But hey! You're an entrepeneur no? Go back to town and say the orcs want a ransom of 200 gp. Keep the ransom money, kill the orcs, collect the reward too, get the xp and you just made out like a rich genius. My conclusion. Have fun with the game. If you're getting bored being a goody two shoes, tell your DM and he should do what he can, within reason to accomodate you and the other players. Rules like "He can't do that because...he just...CANT!" are stupid. Just enjoy the game, that goes for everyone.
Falstaff the Fighter 05-03-04, 03:55 PM	Besides, I always thougt of D&D as <gasp> role playing, not just killing the monsters and saving the world. D&D is a role playing game whose original, intended roll was to facilitate heroes saving things or collecting rewards. The whole notion of evil being good or fun is sadly a modern ideal that has seeped into 3e. Previous editions did not allow evil PCs unless the DM made special allowances for that (Which is yet another reason I love them.).
Autosponge 05-03-04, 05:28 PM	Intentionally derailing a campaign is an :censored: thing to do. There's really no shortage of them playing D&D it seems, but so far I've done a good job of keeping people like you out of my campaigns.
orinbalenovic 05-04-04, 09:15 AM	Originally posted by Autosponge Intentionally derailing a campaign is an :censored: thing to do. There's really no shortage of them playing D&D it seems, but so far I've done a good job of keeping people like you out of my campaigns. Oh, a totalitarian, huh? :smirk: Since when is doing something that your DM approves of intentional derailment, and a bad thing? @Falstaff the Fighter But we're talking about a game here! I had a good laugh when I bought a Vampire rulebook, there was this big disclaimer about how it's all fiction and how the players should stop being vampires once they put away their dice.... Now I see that they should have put those things as a separate paragraph in DnD books as well.
Chronomage 05-04-04, 09:40 AM	Ya know what? I bought Book of Vile Darkness and loved every bit of it. Course, it's for a mature audience, perhaps above this crowd.
angelroble2 05-04-04, 11:35 AM	As a DM, I have done this more than a couple of times. Be it a PC or NPC, a trusted friend reveals himself as a spy or covered enemy. It rises some paranoia from time to time, but it's nice to see how this trick leads to surprising ends. Of course, forget what "defenders of the real and pure d&d" may throw to you. D&D is about fantasy stories, and in many of them there are spies, betrayers, people that becomes evil (Raistlin / Boromir anyone?), etc. Only be sure to tell your DM, because: a) the DM must know everything; b) he can help you; c) The fun must be for everyone, and breaking a whole campaign is not fun for the DM.
Cunning Linguist 05-04-04, 11:55 AM	Only be sure to tell your DM, because: a) the DM must know everything; This is the Alpha Omega in D&D. If any of my players tried to pull something that I was not aware of, like "Look im Evil, it says so on my character sheet" I'd go "Let me see that" *get eraser, rub rub* "No your not, just look here" One does not fool the DM. There is a reason why there is a Solar in the Monsters Manual, and there is a good reason he has has wish as a spell like ability. The Solar is made to punish players who think they can trick there DM into something.
Archmage Conelius 05-04-04, 12:09 PM	Bad Idea to fool the DM, and in fact I woould consider it cheating if I am DMing and someone played a evil person while telling me he is good. However I've had players working with me playing an evil character and it worked out very well. In most cases the player had a character killed and didn't know what to play next so we arranged for him to play a baddy and infiltrate the party. The trick is that the player must have specific goals and has to realize that his evil PC is going to end up dead eventually. Another fun trick is to have a PC replaced by a Doppleganger without letting him know, and then when the time is right you just suddenly say "Grimwald the Paladin of Tyr turns around to cut down walter the Cleric of Tyr" and here both PC's go "What???" being Evil is so Good :devil:
Falstaff the Fighter 05-04-04, 12:20 PM	Course, it's for a mature audience, perhaps above this crowd. The BoVD? Mature? It was the epitome of twinkery, and matched in pititful attempt at fanboy kewlness factor only by the 2e Guide to Hell and the recent fixation on drow 3e has.
Mystery Man 05-05-04, 03:07 PM	Originally posted by Falstaff the Fighter Course, it's for a mature audience, perhaps above this crowd. The BoVD? Mature? It was the epitome of twinkery, and matched in pititful attempt at fanboy kewlness factor only by the 2e Guide to Hell and the recent fixation on drow 3e has. I kinda like the BoVD. It has stats on some pretty heavy arch-fiends/demon lords. Some pretty nasty spells and some other useful tidbits. I've found that used in moderation, its good for just a little bit more evilness. YMMV
Falstaff the Fighter 05-05-04, 03:22 PM	If used soley for numbers. I was refering to the overall concept. There was nothing there that could not have been slapped into a MM Comendium and been better off without the rest.
Mystery Man 05-05-04, 03:38 PM	Hm. No I think it with the variant rules and prc's it justified creating a separate book. If it was slapped into a book with a lot of other things the attention to detail given to the Lords of Evil would have suffered along with numerous spells and feats. The "better off without the rest" is a matter of taste of course. :)
Raenestro 05-05-04, 04:35 PM	With the DM's okay, playing evil can really spice up a game. One of my characters (Wiz 10, Sha 1) just recently came back to the land of the living after having spent several months of game time as a vampire. When he first became undead, he had just taken a level of shadowdancer and so he fed the other players some BS about that making him vulnerable to sunlight. After that he teleported to the nearest Red Wizard enclave and purchased an amulate of non-detection so the paladin's evil radar wouldn't go nuts. The party knew almost immediately that something was up (spider climbing without casting a spell, taking more damage than the barbarian and declining any cure spells, etc.), but they didn't know quite what. It wasn't until we fought a cleric of Valsharoon (sp?) who A) recognized me as undead right off the bat, and B) did well enough on his command undead roll that I was totally his biach that they knew what I was. Sinking my fangs into the paladin's neck was just a little too much to explain away.... Fortunalely, my fellow party members didn't stake me. Instead they dragged me off to the paladin's temple, pumped me full of Bless and Prayer spells and finally resurrected me. Since then, partly out of shame for the things I did as a vampire, and also partly out of rage against undead in general (knowing from first-hand experience what evil abominations they are), I've begun taking levels in Arcane Devotee of Kelemvor. I gotta admit, it was fun to be evil for a while. And I really enjoyed the challenge of trying to keep it all hidden from the other players. Plus, it provided an excellent reason for taking the Arcane Devotee PrC, which has added a lot of flavor to the whole campaign. We're not just adventuring for gold and glory anymore. Our quest now has a personal aspect to it.
Helfax 05-05-04, 04:55 PM	Raenestro- Stuff like that is really cool IMO and definitely adds to a game's indepthedness. I commend you on ur imagination and RPing such a unique situation. Just for the record, lying to the DM and purposely doing things to derail anything he has setup for the party is moronic and that player should have the ---- kicked out of him/her. But being evil with atleast the DM knowing could be very cool and shouldn't be seen as "You can't do that!".
Lord_Anthrax 05-06-04, 12:40 AM	IMO, as long as the DM and the other players are okay with it, have a blast. If they're not, modify your idea to fit the game better, or find another group who does like your idea. D&D, like other RPG's, is a group effort to have fun. If the whole group's not behind it, then something's gonna give when push comes to shove and you'll just have a big nasty mess.