Post/Author/DateTime	Post
LumTheMad 04-06-08, 12:12 PM	My question is basically, "What defines the FR as as setting?" and how to describe this to some new players (new = no RPG Experience whatsoever). How can a DM with a bunch of new players show them the distinct qualities of the setting? Especially in a starting Lvl 1 Adventure. What should be mentioned? Which details will make new players think: "Wow, that's one cool world! I want to see more of it!" I understand that the FR are all about ancient empires, ruins, magic, gods ... . But how should one try to transfer this feeling to new players? Preferably during the first session.
Stigger 04-06-08, 12:59 PM	Can't say its been a recent thing for me, but I've been giving it some thought now that a couple of my players kids and relatives are getting into the age range of maybe being allowed to sit down without tossing the snacks at each other... Personally, I'd avoid a lot of the ancient empire and ruins stuff from a 1st person perspective, and use it more as flavor... tales they hear from NPCs and from the PCs of the more experienced players, preferably the latter, so long as you avoid the overly long rumination that can lead to. Though that really won't work in a group of completely new players, it can still be done via short NPC vignettes they hear as they explore around the starting location, particularly from the people who sell them their starting gear and the like. I'd avoid the tales of the 'big names' in the Realms though, and stick with the smaller-scale, but locally more important small-heroes, with maybe one or two mentions of the 'big-guns' in a very brief sort of way, as if they're not really supposed to know that stuff, lest they get fool ideas about what sorts of things they could mess about with. :D Maybe a mage-duel would be kinda neat as well, though that can get tedious if its rolled through, as I would think it better handled through narrative than anything else... possibly even a cleric preaching and healing in the streets, trying to gain enough of a following to open a shrine in town. Could even turn those into plothooks for them to get familiar with the workings and politics of the clergies and magely types.
LumTheMad 04-06-08, 06:09 PM	Personally, I'd avoid a lot of the ancient empire and ruins stuff from a 1st person perspective, and use it more as flavor... tales they hear from NPCs and from the PCs of the more experienced players, preferably the latter, so long as you avoid the overly long rumination that can lead to. Though that really won't work in a group of completely new players, it can still be done via short NPC vignettes they hear as they explore around the starting location, particularly from the people who sell them their starting gear and the like. That was my idea as well. But I don't think this will be easy. There is so much a NPC could tell them and I don't know how to limit this information. I'd avoid the tales of the 'big names' in the Realms though, and stick with the smaller-scale, but locally more important small-heroes, with maybe one or two mentions of the 'big-guns' in a very brief sort of way, as if they're not really supposed to know that stuff, lest they get fool ideas about what sorts of things they could mess about with. :D I will keep this in mind. I think it is a good idea to give only the "local news". ... possibly even a cleric preaching and healing in the streets, trying to gain enough of a following to open a shrine in town. Could even turn those into plothooks for them to get familiar with the workings and politics of the clergies and magely types. This is gold. Thanks.
Daenaan 04-06-08, 06:19 PM	My question is basically, "What defines the FR as as setting?" and how to describe this to some new players (new = no RPG Experience whatsoever). How can a DM with a bunch of new players show them the distinct qualities of the setting? Especially in a starting Lvl 1 Adventure. What should be mentioned? Which details will make new players think: "Wow, that's one cool world! I want to see more of it!" I understand that the FR are all about ancient empires, ruins, magic, gods ... . But how should one try to transfer this feeling to new players? Preferably during the first session. FR is also about the various power struggles between merchant houses, various guilds, NPCs involved in politics, and how magic weaves into all of those. Layers upon layers of spies from different groups, minor lordlings who grasp at power, agents who feed others false information here and there (or sow the seeds of mistrust and miscommunication with partial truths), secret cabals of wizards or druids or clerics, etc... that's all Realmsy stuff and doesn't have to involve high level anything. :) Also consider: bits of news from a streetwalker, bumping into a streetrat kid thief, striking up a conversation in an Inn with a random adventurer from a distant country, hearing about a strange bit of magic that has awakened at the hand of a minor noble, finding an old text in a library (or a sheaf of decaying scrolls) that talk about how a village was built near the ruins of an old elvish city, or a monster living openly (or discreetly) in a city of humans who is looking for something lost to his "people"... all fun stuff.
Zurg 04-06-08, 06:32 PM	One has to Remember,,,those are new players.. so my advice is actually not to overdo the wonders of FR in the first few sessions, start out classic and a bit simple so the dont get lost in it all. just let them peak into what they passes on the road they are traveling, and keep focus on their quest and adventures. I game with 2 different groups. 1 who are Very experienced players, and another who with whom Ive been gameing for a year, " and they are old rpg's who had had a looong breake" and they still find it to Confuseing with the Varity of the gods and other aspects, and in somehow feel that it sometimes ruin the game aspect, but my old group, swallows it raw. 1 good advice is to make sure they got maps over the area they travel. so the dont feel like they have no clue where they are going.
LumTheMad 04-06-08, 06:37 PM	FR is also about the various power struggles between merchant houses, various guilds, NPCs involved in politics, and how magic weaves into all of those. Layers upon layers of spies from different groups, minor lordlings who grasp at power, agents who feed others false information here and there (or sow the seeds of mistrust and miscommunication with partial truths), secret cabals of wizards or druids or clerics, etc... that's all Realmsy stuff and doesn't have to involve high level anything. :) I know, but that's actually something which scares the **** out of me as a DM. This would require an awesome amount of Realmslore and my Realms-Fu is probably not strong enough to pull this off. I realize that it is "my Realms" and I can create whatever I want, but I also want to keep the Realms-feeling. ... finding an old text in a library (or a sheaf of decaying scrolls) ... I like this one a lot. This would give me the opportunity to tell something about the world without doing the obnoxious bard-stunt (you know: a bard tells a story). They can choose to ignore the bard, they can't ignore a book they are reading. Nice.
Daenaan 04-06-08, 06:42 PM	I know, but that's actually something which scares the **** out of me as a DM. This would require an awesome amount of Realmslore and my Realms-Fu is probably not strong enough to pull this off. I realize that it is "my Realms" and I can create whatever I want, but I also want to keep the Realms-feeling. I wouldn't worry about that so much. It's more the feeling that "gah, there's so much going on!" rather than the exact specifics. All you really need to know is the basic modus operandi of a few groups and then make your own NPCs that are "agents" in some way. It's not necessary to use provided NPCs or stick exactly to what's "in the canon" for specific groups. It's really more about the feeling and the "real world plus magic" tone. I like this one a lot. This would give me the opportunity to tell something about the world without doing the obnoxious bard-stunt (you know: a bard tells a story). They can choose to ignore the bard, they can't ignore a book they are reading. Nice. Glad you like it! The Realms have "chapbook" and small printing houses in the larger cities, rather like our "mom & pop" small book stores, so part of an adventure could be a player finding some unusual old book or scroll in a "books previously owned" section (of sorts).
LumTheMad 04-06-08, 06:54 PM	One has to Remember,,,those are new players.. so my advice is actually not to overdo the wonders of FR in the first few sessions, start out classic and a bit simple so the dont get lost in it all. just let them peak into what they passes on the road they are traveling, and keep focus on their quest and adventures. I game with 2 different groups. 1 who are Very experienced players, and another who with whom Ive been gameing for a year, " and they are old rpg's who had had a looong breake" and they still find it to Confuseing with the Varity of the gods and other aspects, and in somehow feel that it sometimes ruin the game aspect, but my old group, swallows it raw. 1 good advice is to make sure they got maps over the area they travel. so the dont feel like they have no clue where they are going. Thanks. I was worried that the Realms would totally overwhelm them. Heck even the "recent FR News" are totally crazy especially for someone who doesn't have a clue what the FR are. I think I will keep the info scarce.
Lord Karsus 04-06-08, 07:55 PM	-Being as that I run a homebrew, where only I know things, every game I play, I am slowly introducing the PCs to my world. The thing, in my opinion, to keep in mind is to not overdo things. -My setting had a "WSE" tens of thousands of years ago. A meteor fell from the skies containing a Lavos (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lavos#Lavos)-like creature. This malevolent creature provided the Elves with malice in their hearts the ability to draw from a new power source of magic, which eventually led to the destruction of the magnificent Elven empires that held soverignty over the world. I go into quite a bit of detail about all of this, the fate of this creature, the consequences, and so on. I will never use any of that in my D&D campaigns. -If you attempt to push every single little detail that exists- especially unrelated details- most players don't seem to respond. In my opinion, some even react in a negative manner. So, the main thing is to incorporate details in moderation, and make sure they are relevant. If the PCs are delivering something from Cormyr to Sembia, you can include some tidbits about the Shadowstorm, for instance. Perhaps the PCs will become intrigued, and you can incorporate more of that plotline. But, when the PCs are delivering something for Cormyr to Sembia, you shouldn't include details about how the Heart of Runlatha was stolen (the events of Son of Thunder).
LumTheMad 04-06-08, 08:49 PM	... -If you attempt to push every single little detail that exists- especially unrelated details- most players don't seem to respond. In my opinion, some even react in a negative manner. So, the main thing is to incorporate details in moderation, and make sure they are relevant. If the PCs are delivering something from Cormyr to Sembia, you can include some tidbits about the Shadowstorm, for instance. Perhaps the PCs will become intrigued, and you can incorporate more of that plotline. But, when the PCs are delivering something for Cormyr to Sembia, you shouldn't include details about how the Heart of Runlatha was stolen (the events of Son of Thunder). I agree. Though on the other hand I remember my own experiences as a player in another setting. I hadn't much information about the world and that was always kind of boring because we seemed to jump from one adventure to another without knowing anything significant about our surroundings. There was no frame which would have made the world special. This changed as we played more adventures but at the beginning I didn't have a real view of the world. That's what I fear in this case, not being able to create a specific FR frame. I think it is important for players (especially newbies) to have a world around them which is easily imaginable. Unfortunately you can't tell them: "Well this is a world similar to the one you have seen in the LotR movies." because this wouldn't be true. There are no examples which are readily available in our culture. That's why I have to create the world in their imaginations piece by piece.
Lord Karsus 04-07-08, 12:01 AM	-Before they even play, and I am assuming that you are the DM, allow all of your players to borrow the FRCS, and give them some time, to make sure they flip through it. The first complaint, invariably, about the Forgotten Realms is that it intimidates players who jump into the water blindly. That said, these players/DMs are already doing things wrong. Before anybody plays in any setting, they should become familiar with some of the basics. If I ever played a game in Eberron, I'd read the Eberron Campaign Setting, to see what the world is like. That way, when I'd be able to make a character that fits in the campaign setting. Otherwise, as I like to say, you could have a character that creates a Warforged Wu-Jen from Calimshan. Know what I mean? -All of that said, once a player has a basic sense of what the world is like, he/she will begin to appreciate the complexities and little tangets that you insert into your campaign that the world offers. If the player knows about the Imaskari, it makes finding an ancient cache of Imaskari magic items in some ancient ruins that much more special. If the player knows about the relationship between Princess Amnestria Moonflower and Elaith Craulnober, it makes finding their child that much more special.
LumTheMad 04-07-08, 01:13 PM	-Before they even play, and I am assuming that you are the DM, allow all of your players to borrow the FRCS, and give them some time, to make sure they flip through it. The first complaint, invariably, about the Forgotten Realms is that it intimidates players who jump into the water blindly. That said, these players/DMs are already doing things wrong. Before anybody plays in any setting, they should become familiar with some of the basics. If I ever played a game in Eberron, I'd read the Eberron Campaign Setting, to see what the world is like. That way, when I'd be able to make a character that fits in the campaign setting. Otherwise, as I like to say, you could have a character that creates a Warforged Wu-Jen from Calimshan. Know what I mean? -All of that said, once a player has a basic sense of what the world is like, he/she will begin to appreciate the complexities and little tangets that you insert into your campaign that the world offers. If the player knows about the Imaskari, it makes finding an ancient cache of Imaskari magic items in some ancient ruins that much more special. If the player knows about the relationship between Princess Amnestria Moonflower and Elaith Craulnober, it makes finding their child that much more special. While I agree with everything you said, I have to mention that you are probably underestimating your experience and involvement as a player. You are without doubt someone with some years of being a player and / or DM. The approach you described is certainly the ideal one. But I am dealing with total newbies here. I will have to explain how the different kind of dice are called and what they are for. If I gave them the FRCS before we even started playing and said "Hey, familiarize yourself with the region X before we start." I could quite possible destroy their motivation to try this "weird game". And I am not seeing Warforged in my FR game as I will most likely have to help them to even choose what to play. Some of them are not even familiar with the common fantasy archetypes, so I will have to explain what the races and classes are about. That's why I am searching for ways to incorporate some lore ingame. I have to build up at least a minimum of excitement about the world during the first session. If I manage to do this, they will probably ask themself for the Campaign Setting or will at least be curious enough to ask questions etc. I think this would be the better approach than to give them "homework" in advance.
Alediran 04-07-08, 01:38 PM	If they've never saw Lord of the Rings you should make them see those movies. They are so basic fantasy that they are useful in every D&D game.
Lord Karsus 04-07-08, 02:39 PM	I think this would be the better approach than to give them "homework" in advance. -It isn't homework as much as it is simply becoming familiar with the subject. As I said before, it would be asinine to attempt to write a term paper on a subject I am totally and completely clueless about. So, why participate in a game where I am totally and completely clueless? -After you complete character creation, you should allow all of the players to skim the FRCS to learn about the setting, and to formulate a history.
Stigger 04-07-08, 04:26 PM	Amusingly, I got an A on a paper I wrote on a subject I knew absolutely nothing about once... but the teacher was an idiot who was easily distracted with big words, so its not necessarily saying much. As to how to limit the information on what NPCs tell them, easiest way I've found is for the players to overhear things at first, so that they start forming questions of their own to ask the NPC about, and then giving them relatively brief answers, but taking care to stick to the direct subject at hand... don't offer any more information than they ask for. Or if they start getting really inquisitive, just tell them the NPC has to leave for a job or appointment or something else to cut them off from too much free information. Better yet, if they seem really interested, have them find an old guy sitting on a chair who'll talk their ear off, just make sure a lot of the information is at least somewhat out of date, if not outright wrong... can get some decent plothooks in there with rumors, particularly if the old-timer is asking them to keep getting him drinks... then you can get some interesting half-remembered drunken ravings going on from him so that they can't really be sure about what they just heard. Should at least teach them an important lesson that not every NPC is a reliable source of information and to take things with a grain of salt. As to how those various merchant houses and such work, Power of Faerun isn't a bad source at all, neither is Cloak and Dagger for 2e, which had a very useful 'power map' of a fairly sizeable chunk of Faerun in it. Gold and Glory for 2e isn't bad either, particularly since its free off the WotC old edition DL site (not really great, but some of the color plates might be good for visual reference). You might want to pick up a few Volo's Guides as well, if you don't already have them, or a copy of Aurora's Whole Realms Catalogue, which are useful props, and even a viable source of in-game information if they happen across a copy of it somewhere. And you get the benefit of the unreliable narrator that is Volo, so you can get them in all sorts of trouble with it... :evillaugh
Lord Karsus 04-07-08, 05:04 PM	Amusingly, I got an A on a paper I wrote on a subject I knew absolutely nothing about once... but the teacher was an idiot who was easily distracted with big words, so its not necessarily saying much. -That is amazing...The best I've ever done was get a B+ on a reaction paper and oral presentation for a book I never bothered purchased, basing all of my knowledge of it on the 'preview' chapter I read on Amazon.com, coupled with the back cover, what the chapters were titled, and intuition.
Stigger 04-07-08, 06:55 PM	Heh, not bad. Not really that amazing though... the guy really was an utter moron. Worse was that I was paying for this so-called education. Suffice to say, it rather shattered what little confidence I actually had in any education system. ;) Though more on topic, Forgotten Realms Adventures for 2e mentioned some stuff about various merchant concerns in the city description sections as I recall, so that could be useful for plot hooks as well.
Lord Karsus 04-08-08, 12:46 AM	Though more on topic, Forgotten Realms Adventures for 2e mentioned some stuff about various merchant concerns in the city description sections as I recall, so that could be useful for plot hooks as well. -The DMG also has that list of "100 Plot Hooks", or whatever it was, most of which can be easily adapted into the Realms, since they are fairly generic.
Stigger 04-08-08, 01:29 AM	Didn't much care for those hooks... they were a little awkward to me. Of course, having said that, that's one of the reasons I don't use adventure modules, they always feel a bit awkward and forced to me. I've yet to see one that provided much of a motivation to get involved, at least one that appealed to me or my group. To each their own though...
LumTheMad 04-08-08, 02:40 AM	Thanks for the replies. But my main concern aren't adventure hooks. I will probably use a published adventure anyway. My main concern is to describe the world in a colorful way without holding a lecture. That's why I like the suggestions of a cleric who is healing someone on the street (that's certainly FR-feeling; not just any medieval world) and the book which they can read (again this avoids the situation of me lecturing them). I am thinking about ways to show that minor magic is quite available even to "normal" people. Not quite sure how to do this though without overdoing it and turning the setting into Eberron.
Lord Karsus 04-08-08, 02:50 AM	-Oh, oh...Also, you can do what Dave_the_DM did HERE (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=1012444). A newspaper type deal. Fill it with some info, print it up, make it look cool, and that'd interest any player.
LumTheMad 04-08-08, 06:25 AM	-Oh, oh...Also, you can do what Dave_the_DM did HERE (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=1012444). A newspaper type deal. Fill it with some info, print it up, make it look cool, and that'd interest any player. I like what dave_the_DM did, but I am reluctant with newspapers. Newspapers imply a printing press. That's too Renaissance for my vision of the FR. But I realize that this point is certainly debatable. Any canon statements on newspapers in the FR?
Lord Karsus 04-08-08, 07:00 AM	Any canon statements on newspapers in the FR? -Yes, they exist, in a limited fashion. That said, if it aids you in introducing the setting to these players, and helps you as a DM, make them exist. "Props" like this greatly enhance the "fun factor". And, since they'll be using two senses- sight and touch- and can go back and reference things and what not, everyone is benefitting.
Alediran 04-08-08, 08:36 AM	Thanks for the replies. But my main concern aren't adventure hooks. I will probably use a published adventure anyway. My main concern is to describe the world in a colorful way without holding a lecture. That's why I like the suggestions of a cleric who is healing someone on the street (that's certainly FR-feeling; not just any medieval world) and the book which they can read (again this avoids the situation of me lecturing them). I am thinking about ways to show that minor magic is quite available even to "normal" people. Not quite sure how to do this though without overdoing it and turning the setting into Eberron. It is actually Eberron the setting that copied the minor magic available from other settings. FR had it since 1st edition. Just read the Utility Magic of the Realms (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=1004560) thread.
Stigger 04-08-08, 09:40 AM	You could always borrow a page from the City of Splendors boxed set and just have them run across a bard and/or an illusionist doing a street performance for a few coins to entertain the crowd. That was a trick I used to good effect in Waterdeep's Market, complete with rogues using the performances as distractions for their pickpocketing. You could even describe some odd, obviously magical outfits the mages and the nobles might be wearing... hairstyling that glows for the nights festivities on some lady's head or something. Certainly tons of precedent for it if one believes the Volo's Guides. Hells, you could even set up a magic shop that the players run through hoops trying just to get into, only to have it turn out to be a shop that nobles and the elite go to for magical effects and items that are almost purely cosmetic, that has nothing to do with adventuring in the slightest. Makes for an interesting twist when the wizard is the one going out and doing stuff for beer money instead of the rogue... :D