Post/Author/DateTime	Post
alder_zeal 06-14-07, 07:25 PM	Okay realmers how will FR survive 4ed? How can it when almost all important regions have been covered? How do you sell a book that was published previously in 3ed? If I was a market manager i'd ask these questions. I just don't see it as marketable as it has been in the past.
Faraer 06-14-07, 07:47 PM	Far from almost all important regions having been covered, only a small part (the Silver Marches) of the Heartlands and North has received detailed coverage since the mid-1990s. There's no question of selling the same book again. The project of publishing the Realms has still only begun. Remember, Ed Greenwood has literally hundreds of large cardboard boxes of unpublished lore. There's a long list of subjects about which we know very little: major stuff like the organization of churches, everyday magic, many huge blanks in the history, characters deserving their own novels (Mirt and Durnan above all), halfling and gnome culture, the many dungeons mapped in Ed's campaigns but never published, the secret battles over gates, the everyday life of rural people, any detailed treatment of Sembia and the Dragon Coast, or Impiltur . . . and many hundreds of lesser seeds never expanded upon. Whether the continuing publication of the sourcebooks will keep being commercial, well, industry people have been predicting to the contrary for more than 15 years. I've not even heard doubts about the health of the novel line. What difference do you think a new edition of the game would make?
XHereticX 06-14-07, 07:48 PM	Okay realmers how will FR survive 4ed? How can it when almost all important regions have been covered? How do you sell a book that was published previously in 3ed? If I was a market manager i'd ask these questions. I just don't see it as marketable as it has been in the past. don't worry, 4th edition woudn't be coming out for a while now. And when it does, wotc will have a whole batch of new material to work with.
Dark Wizard 06-14-07, 07:58 PM	It will survive the same way most long running fiction franchises keep going, by doing its best to maintain what was good about the setting. FR is by far not the oldest franchise around. Both major the DC and Marvel branches of comic book superheros are over 60 years old and are recently being introduced to a new generation through movies. Many other characters from the pulp days are still very popular, Mandrake the Magician, the Phantom, the Shadow, Flash Gordon, Conan. Many detective characters from as far back as the Victorian age are still being published, both old and new stories, pastiches, reinterpretations, etc. Tolkien's stuff dates back to around the same time. Star Trek is over 40. Star Wars is 20 (about the same as FR) and still going strong. I really don't see where your concern, or is it pessimism (maybe wishful thinking ?), comes from.
alder_zeal 06-14-07, 09:19 PM	I don't wish death to the Realms. I just see more and more realms players now reaching the 30's to 40's of age. They have bought the books and novels. The brand just needs something that will make it POP. I truly to believe to push the line in marketing terms it needs modern media other than video games. A mini series or trilogy of movies, but not like those really bad D&D movies.
Dark Wizard 06-14-07, 09:44 PM	I think they just need to smooth out many of the transition bumps. Some of the pieces saddled on by TSR need real updates and overhauls. The NPCs need to be toned down, closer to their original incarnations, if they need to be stat'ed at all. Some of the useless crunch needs to be reworked to make it mechanics that support the feeling of the setting. They need to move away from marketing the setting only as the playground of RSEs and focus more of smaller adventures (which would have personal stakes just as important to the characters as major events). A lot of little things from the 2e to 3e jump when the designers were still new to the edition. I think FR can learn from the presentation format of Eberron. FR books should try to state its fundamental themes and style more clearly (almost in a list in Eberron) so its crystal clear to the people who keep stereotyping it. An actual art direction wouldn't hurt either, rather than just commissioning pieces from any artist available and giving them nearly free reign. Planescape had a distinct look that helped promote the vibe of the setting. Maybe in 4e, Eberron can go first so FR can learn from the mistakes made. :P PS: A Realms movie would probably turn out horrible, even if it was directed by a fan. Courtney Solomon was a gamer, the D&D movie still turned out poorly.
XHereticX 06-14-07, 09:49 PM	Maybe in 4e, Eberron can go first so FR can learn from the mistakes made. :P PS: A Realms movie would probably turn out horrible, even if it was directed by a fan. Courtney Solomon was a gamer, the D&D movie still turned out poorly. LOL, yeah, good point, let Eberron be the scapegoat. If a FR film turns out anything like the D&D movie, "shudders"...
Faraer 06-14-07, 10:10 PM	As I've said before, the Lord of the Rings films are as faithful as they are (and that very incompletely) because the cultural weight and penetration of the books meant that not just the director and writers but the crew knew them, and the studio didn't try to seriously rework them for its own needs. A Hollywood Realms movie would become unrecognizable by the second script rewrite. I also can't help but think a better synergy could be made with the videogames, and perhaps in luring Bob Salvatore fans to the wider setting. But the Realms has already suffered more than enough popping.FR books should try to state its fundamental themes and style more clearly (almost in a list in Eberron) so its crystal clear to the people who keep stereotyping it. An actual art direction wouldn't hurt either, rather than just commissioning pieces from any artist available and giving them nearly free reign.When we were waiting for the 3E FRCS I held out a little hope that the Realms would be allowed to keep its own style and play to its own strengths, rather than being trapped in the 3E game-design philosophy in order to sell more to non-Realms players. Whether or not that's commercially a good idea, I'd still love to see it happen.
Dark Wizard 06-14-07, 10:14 PM	If a FR film turns out anything like the D&D movie, "shudders"... "Two of the Forgotten Realms most legendary heroes, the deadly drow ranger Drizzt Do'Urden (Orlando Bloom) and the mythic wizard Elminster (Burt Reynolds) team up with the help of the Simbul (Paris Hilton), sorceress-queen from the mystic land of Aglarond, in a hilariously sexy, action-packed, high-fantasy action-adventure to save the magical world of Faerun from the evil alliance of the forces of Lord Shadow (Jeremy Irons) and the orc-king Obould (WWE wrestling flavor of the month)." Directed by Paul W.S. Anderson with a script by bestselling FR author Richard Awlinson.
alder_zeal 06-14-07, 10:37 PM	"Two of the Forgotten Realms most legendary heroes, the deadly drow ranger Drizzt Do'Urden (Orlando Bloom) and the mythic wizard Elminster (Burt Reynolds) team up with the help of the Simbul (Paris Hilton), sorceress-queen from the mystic land of Aglarond, in a hilariously sexy, action-packed, high-fantasy action-adventure to save the magical world of Faerun from the evil alliance of the forces of Lord Shadow (Jeremy Irons) and the orc-king Obould (WWE wrestling flavor of the month)." Any one but ditzy blonde women like Paris. I don't think if they go 4.0 Realms or Eberron will be the scapegoat. It will be the fall back settings of Greyhawk or Dragonlance
XHereticX 06-14-07, 10:50 PM	"Two of the Forgotten Realms most legendary heroes, the deadly drow ranger Drizzt Do'Urden (Orlando Bloom) and the mythic wizard Elminster (Burt Reynolds) team up with the help of the Simbul (Paris Hilton), sorceress-queen from the mystic land of Aglarond, in a hilariously sexy, action-packed, high-fantasy action-adventure to save the magical world of Faerun from the evil alliance of the forces of Lord Shadow (Jeremy Irons) and the orc-king Obould (WWE wrestling flavor of the month)." Directed by Paul W.S. Anderson with a script by bestselling FR author Richard Awlinson. Paris Hilton the simbul? :yuck: Unless its swimsuit edition of course;) Wow, I have no clue why Realms fans of all people would be so perverted(I am too).
Meldread 06-15-07, 02:15 AM	I agree Paris should play the Simbul. They actually have a lot in common. ;)
Soltares 06-15-07, 02:51 AM	Okay realmers how will FR survive 4ed? How can it when almost all important regions have been covered? How do you sell a book that was published previously in 3ed? I have an entire shelf of 2nd Edition Realms stuff (at least 30 books and / or boxed sets, not counting the realms-set Kara-Tur and Al-Qadim stuff, of which I have everything as well), and yet, 3.X stuff is still of use to me. I imagine 4.0 will be much the same. The setting isn't stagnant, things keep happening, and as classes / races / etc. get tweaked, the setting gets tweaked to stay fresh (like the Simbul becoming a Sorceress in 3.0, instead of a Wizard). Maybe in 4.0 the Warlock will be a core class, and Spellfire-users will be a Realms-specific variant Warlock class. Paris isn't nearly buxom enough to be the Simbul. Scrawny, half-starved little piece of plastic, she wouldn't be suitable to play any Realms woman! (She's not terribly convincing as a woman in the real world, actually...) Pamela Anderson has the figure, and the personality, needed to play the Wench-Queen of Aglarond.
Karsus the Mad 06-15-07, 02:57 AM	I'd like FR to recieve it's own game mechanics specifically designed to represent FR's nuances at the gaming table. Also, would hopefully cut down DRSE's everytime generic game rules change. I agree Paris should play the Simbul. They actually have a lot in common. :eek: I'm curious. I'm not a large fan of the Simbul, but how do they have anything in common but gender?
msatran 06-15-07, 04:10 AM	Here's how FR survives 4th ed. FREEZE THE TIMELINE AND DON'T ADVANCE IT ANYMORE! ED GREENWOOD IS STILL RUNNING IN THE EARLY 1360's. I'm so sick of reading updates where every campaign plan I have is dashed by some group of adventurers I've never heard of and have less interest in reading about. And then, when I read what actually happened and look at the stats for the NPCs, I think to myself...What kind of crackmonkey tactics were these?
XHereticX 06-15-07, 08:15 AM	[QUOTE=msatran;12734608 And then, when I read what actually happened and look at the stats for the NPCs, I think to myself...What kind of crackmonkey tactics were these?[/QUOTE] Those two things have never corresponded in the history of the realms and never will. Remember, stats vary by the edition, but lore is forever(well, until they invented the Great Tree)
msatran 06-15-07, 11:13 AM	Yeah, well, the great tree isn't so great.
Leukrythus 06-15-07, 12:12 PM	The Reals should be frozen in 3.5 ed. If WotC wants to come out with a new edition, then they should invent a new campaign setting for it.
ShadezofDis 06-15-07, 12:21 PM	Paris isn't nearly buxom enough to be the Simbul. Scrawny, half-starved little piece of plastic, she wouldn't be suitable to play any Realms woman! (She's not terribly convincing as a woman in the real world, actually...) Pamela Anderson has the figure, and the personality, needed to play the Wench-Queen of Aglarond. Ummm. . . the Simbul is half starved and scrawny. . . she's also almost perpetually dirty and unkempt. She just doesn't care about looks in the least. I have no clue where you picked up the idea Pam would be anything but a tragedy as the Simbul (not that Paris would be good, but that was a joke)
Leukrythus 06-15-07, 12:25 PM	Paris Hilton the simbul? I swear that I would give up D&D forever the second that happened. I refuse to watch MS Nothing But Celebrities... (except for Olbermann) for their excessive Paris infatuation.
MarkusTay63 06-15-07, 01:10 PM	Mystara was first, and became the default OD&D setting. Greyhawk became the 1st Ed. default setting. FR became the 2nd Ed. Default setting Eberron is now the default 3rd Ed. setting. That is not official, but that is the ghist I get when slutting around these boards and others. There are still people who play with the older edition rules, and if you took a poll you would find that most often they are playing in the worlds that I mentioned above. I'm not saying more people are playing Eberron then FR, but I would hazard to guess that 95% of the people who are still using 2nd Ed. rules are playing FR. Something new will be released for 4th edition, it just makes sense. Perhaps they will bring back Planescape, or re-vamp one of the other old settings. Eberron will make the jump to 4th Ed., and be in the same position as FR is now. FR will become the setting for 'grognards' and diehards that stick with 3e, since we have already switched between editions twice and are sick of it. Then we will just see occassional updates in Dragon Magazine for our 'dead' setting... Oh wait... now we won't even get that. :( The Realms are too popular in novels and video games to ever truly die, but I can see it fading into the background like Dragonlance. We will most likely see a CS, and maybe a Players guide, but don't expect the tons of background we got in 2e. Even in 3e we are not seeing 1/2 the stuff we used to; it just makes sense that it will just get worse, unless someone in charge changes their marketing direction.
XHereticX 06-15-07, 01:31 PM	So the only setting I really don't like is gonna go on top, great, just great...:rolleyes: Personally I think Eberron is just a modern pop culture rip-off of D&D. Gee, warforged? They so copied that from Full Metal Alchemist.
MarkusTay63 06-15-07, 01:45 PM	You can say the same about Data from ST:tNG, who in turn is a Pinnochio rip-off. There are no new ideas anymore, just new twists.
XHereticX 06-15-07, 01:53 PM	You can say the same about Data from ST:tNG, who in turn is a Pinnochio rip-off. There are no new ideas anymore, just new twists. True, nearly every viable fantasy and science fiction resource has been used up, and there really aren't too many original stories out there, mostly variations. Still that is no excuse to base a campaign setting off Casablanca and anime and throw it together with a screwed-up version of steampunk and call it a campaign setting, plus its low leveled:yuck: I'm sorry if my comments sound like rants but I harbor ill-feelings towards Eberron ever since it booted DL right off WoTC's priority list and now forcing the Realms into the shadows.
MarkusTay63 06-15-07, 01:59 PM	Eberron was chosen from a Dozen or so finalists, if I recall correctly, so obviously it appealed to the marketing folks. Players don't really matter in those types of decisions - it always boils down to what looks good on a cover. Case in point - both the 2e and 3e Shining South sources have pictures of airships attached to blimps, yet their ships look NOTHING at all like that. It's just a cheap marketing gimmick... Which sums up Eberron. ;)
ShadezofDis 06-15-07, 02:03 PM	plus its low leveled:yuck: Nothin wrong with low level worlds :P I remember a day when 9th level spells were truly impressive, now you're dust if you don't have a quickened wish. ;) (Note: I do prefer a low level focus, I'm being extreme in my stance for the humor value though :P)
XHereticX 06-15-07, 02:03 PM	Eberron was chosen from a Dozen or so finalists, if I recall correctly, so obviously it appealed to the marketing folks. Players don't really matter in those types of decisions - it always boils down to what looks good on a cover. Case in point - both the 2e and 3e Shining South sources have pictures of airships attached to blimps, yet their ships look NOTHING at all like that. It's just a cheap marketing gimmick... Which sums up Eberron. ;) True, very true. Its just a nice flashy package on the outside with nothing but foam on the inside. "Sigh", it just seems too flashy and new-age to be D&D and looking at it, it dosen't seem to have that kind of fantasy fever that FR gives me. Wow, I'm talking like a Grounard and im only 15, not good...
Alediran 06-15-07, 02:08 PM	I actually think that Eberron is just a test setting (a test setting that sells) where WotC betatest things they want to put in other settings. After all, it's the highest title Eberron deserves.
MarkusTay63 06-15-07, 02:13 PM	Low-level is one of the things I really like about Eberron. I used to feel about GH the way I feel about FR (in the beginning, I refused to even look at FR!). In that setting, the most powerful wizards on the planet were all around level 18... or lower. Iuz was the 'big bad guy', who was the GH equvalent of Sauron. Elminster wouldn't even break a sweat on him. Its just sad that the game has gone to power-players and RP has fallen by the wayside. I remember some really great game sessions where nary a dice was rolled. :cloud9: Video games have destroyed RPing, IMHO. It's all about leveling now, and who has the best junk.
XHereticX 06-15-07, 02:18 PM	Low-level is one of the things I really like about Eberron. I used to feel about GH the way I feel about FR (in the beginning, I refused to even look at FR!). In that setting, the most powerful wizards on the planet were all around level 18... or lower. Iuz was the 'big bad guy', who was the GH equvalent of Sauron. Elminster wouldn't even break a sweat on him. Its just sad that the game has gone to power-players and RP has fallen by the wayside. I remember some really great game sessions where nary a dice was rolled. :cloud9: Video games have destroyed RPing, IMHO. It's all about leveling now, and who has the best junk. Nah, GH isn't that low-leveled, Mordenkainen himself is around level 28 and the circle of eight are pretty damn powerful too. Iuz has always been a "big bad guy" as you term him and I personally think he could destroy Elminster myself. Yeah, the whole power-gaming thing was the reason I stopped playing MMOs for a while, I spent more time trying to get items than actually playing, plus all the scams... Still, I will NEVER embrace Eberron. I so solemly swear by God:embarrass
ShadezofDis 06-15-07, 02:27 PM	Nah, GH isn't that low-leveled, Mordenkainen himself is around level 28 and the circle of eight are pretty damn powerful too. Iuz has always been a "big bad guy" as you term him and I personally think he could destroy Elminster myself. I believe he's talking about "back in the day" Heck, El was only 26th level in the oldest book I have with him in it (AFAIK, might have something kickin in a random box somewhere) and now he's. . . what. . . 35th or something? I'm not sure what the lowest level Mordenkainen I have in a book is, but it's not 28th. :)
GothicDan 06-15-07, 07:08 PM	Eberron is not killing FR, and I do not think that it's nearly as bad as lot of people make it out to be. I have quite a number of issues with the new material, but they are not based on my dislike of other campaign settings, or on them being "new and flashy." I generally dislike the direction that things have been going with FR, many of which Dark highlighted. Throughout 3.X, there has been a focus on mechanics that were supposed to facilitate those who played in the Realms. We have core mechanics for a reason. I think that there has been a confusion of intent; with sufficiently flexible mechanics (as presented in the three core books, and perhaps just a few expansions, no more), dozens/hundreds of pages of FR material could have been used actually telling people why FR is interesting, and attracting them. Mechanics can be transported to any setting. It's harder to do so with lore. Thus, bringing in people who genuinely enjoy the lore of the setting are those that will continue to buy FR books. They can enjoy the mechanics, too, but I think that a setting stands on its own two feet by its theme, history, and NPCs - not its prestige classes and feats.
Karsus the Mad 06-15-07, 07:13 PM	Eberron is not killing FR, and I do not think that it's nearly as bad as lot of people make it out to be. I have quite a number of issues with the new material, but they are not based on my dislike of other campaign settings, or on them being "new and flashy." I generally dislike the direction that things have been going with FR, many of which Dark highlighted. Throughout 3.X, there has been a focus on mechanics that were supposed to facilitate those who played in the Realms. We have core mechanics for a reason. I think that there has been a confusion of intent; with sufficiently flexible mechanics (as presented in the three core books, and perhaps just a few expansions, no more), dozens/hundreds of pages of FR material could have been used actually telling people why FR is interesting, and attracting them. Mechanics can be transported to any setting. It's harder to do so with lore. Thus, bringing in people who genuinely enjoy the lore of the setting are those that will continue to buy FR books. They can enjoy the mechanics, too, but I think that a setting stands on its own two feet by its theme, history, and NPCs - not its prestige classes and feats. Well said, well said:clap:
MarkusTay63 06-15-07, 07:25 PM	Nah, GH isn't that low-leveled, Mordenkainen himself is around level 28 and the circle of eight are pretty damn powerful too. Iuz has always been a "big bad guy" as you term him and I personally think he could destroy Elminster myself.Perhaps after that atrocity, From the Ashes, was released. It didn't start out that high-level. Then they nuked the whole setting with that boxed set. :( So Shadez is right, I was talking "back in the day". And as far as Dan's post goes, thats all just part of the "more fluff, less crunch" argument. All the rules you will ever need to play is in the first three books. All setting-specific books should be at least 80% fluff, because the crunch belongs in the core books. When I want to hear more music, I don't go out and buy more MP3 players, I get more songs. Give us the music, dammit!
XHereticX 06-15-07, 08:04 PM	Our dreams, and minds, can play strange tricks upon us some times;) Maybe you are letting your desires cloud your reason. Try to make lemonade out of lemons, if there isn't enough fluff, make your own. Try to innovate with the material given to us and stop dwelling in the past. Either that or go on strike:eek:
The Simbul 06-15-07, 11:26 PM	Actually I would be more concerned about whether or not 4th Edition (and with it D&D) would be able to survive the wrath of gamers that could come from yet another frivolous re-edition of the game. I personally would never accept a 4th edition of the game, specifically after the mass-waste of paper known as 3.5, and the associated need to re-print (and re-buy) "newer", "updated", and "official" half-hearted "revisions" (i.e. putting house rules of author X, Y, or Z in official print) of nearly every single accessory we bought just a few years earlier (but this time with a glossy hardcover, a shift in font-size, and an occasionally higher price tag).
GothicDan 06-15-07, 11:27 PM	If we wanted to make up all of our own fluff, why in the world would we ever buy FR-specific material?
XHereticX 06-15-07, 11:29 PM	If we wanted to make up all of our own fluff, why in the world would we ever buy FR-specific material? Hmm, crunch can be good too. They provide good crunch and you fill it in. Nit quite my style but thats how the rest of my gaming group rolls.
Mr_Miscellany 06-16-07, 06:25 AM	People seem to be forgetting the setting elements of FR that require mechanics. Consider magic. That alone covers such a huge area of ground. From any of the hundreds (thousands?) of specific types and styles of magic that exist or have existed throughout Faerūn such as Elven High Magic, the multi-faceted nature of portals (gates, for those like me from the olden days), countless unique magic items, types of spell casting (circle magic, rune magic, cooperative casting, spell dancing and the like), things like Spellfire and on and on and on. Outside of magic we have countless fighting styles that differentiate drow from one city as opposed to any another; just as fighting styles exist that separate one race from another. Can the core rules hope to cover these? And what about the unique abilities such as those of the Chosen, or the mundane yet effective abilities of fearless rogues and scoundrels, or the numerous divine abilities given to or drawn forth by those faithful to the gods of the Realms....? The Realms are and always have been filled with numerous setting elements that require rules, but that no set of Core Rulebooks will ever cover. In fact, these elements are ones that teh Core Rules should not cover. Thus, all the rules one needs to play in FR can not be found in the Core Rulebooks. It’s possible to play with just Core, but even then you would be barely scratching the surface and you’d have to ignore a whole bunch of material in the FRCS. This is why the claim that prestige classes and feats are not the way to hook people on FR is a weak argument. While these elements should not be the sole focus from WotC to its FR customers (and they’re not), it does not follow that these elements ought to be relegated to a few supplements and no more. To do so would be to miss the point of why people play Dungeons and Dragons. After all, people don’t sit around a table to play D&D in FR by reading lore-filled books to each other. Teach people the Core mechanics, intro them to FR, show them new mechanics that are FR specific and demonstrate this is because of the unique nature of the setting, then use this last to expand in the minds of players their knowledge of non-mechanical, setting based lore. That’s the pattern 3.5 is finally starting to follow and 4E should as well for FR to survive. Or they could simply make FR Core. ;) ::::::::::::::: To GD and company. ...this argument may come off harsh. If so, please don’t read tone into it. I’m working on presenting arguments that sound less targeted and ‘lecture-like’. :::::::::::::::: If we wanted to make up all of our own fluff, why in the world would we ever buy FR-specific material? ..FR specific material (including a great deal of lore) is quite portable into other campaigns. FR books are good resources of Fluff and Crunch for any DM. A'course, much DM work for the Realms involves making things up. The lore we have -while extensive- is hardly complete. G'day! :)
Francius 06-16-07, 04:08 PM	Eberron is now the default 3rd Ed. setting. Not a chance in Tartarus. The default setting for 3rd edition is Greyhawk (check the PHB), even if it is now somewhat discontinued (although the RoCG upcoming book may try to change that). Not the Forgotten Realms neither Eberron are the "default" settings for the 3.0 - 3.5 editions of the game. That is not official, but that is the ghist I get when slutting around these boards and others. You have a totally diverse "ghist" from mine. From what I know and have seen, Realmsian folks on these boards are more numerous - they just tend to be more frequently on the generic D&D discussion boards than the FR specific ones. Something new will be released for 4th edition, it just makes sense. Perhaps they will bring back Planescape, or re-vamp one of the other old settings. I hope they bring back some of my other favourite fantasy worlds: Birthright, Planescape (albeit some material for it already exists in the 3.5), Dark Sun and Mystara. Eberron will make the jump to 4th Ed., and be in the same position as FR is now. Eberron can only *dream* of being in the position the Realms are now - even in twenty years from now. The Realms are too popular in novels and video games to ever truly die, but I can see it fading into the background like Dragonlance. Man you 've been hitting Elminster's eversmoking pipe early today... The Forgotten Realms are outselling Eberron in the US market from what I know by friends I have overseas (and some info on Amazon and E-Bay), and you don't even want to be informed about how the pulp noir setting fares here in Europe where most hobby stores already stopped bringing new material about it because the only use they have for it is as "dust collectors" on their shelves. The Realms are big, vastly developped, deeply historied, richly detailed and more plentiful than any other fantasy world at the moment (or maybe ever) and to this add such a huge authors/designers team and countless fanbase - it's an easy understatement to say that they have a chance to (one day) become the world's most popular fantasy setting right behind Middle-Earth...you can't be even dreaming when you say that they will fade... Twenty years have passed and the setting is still stronger than ever. It is actually only now flexing its muscles; look at the products and novels coming out like mushrooms. We will most likely see a CS, and maybe a Players guide, but don't expect the tons of background we got in 2e. Even in 3e we are not seeing 1/2 the stuff we used to; it just makes sense that it will just get worse, unless someone in charge changes their marketing direction. We will see tons of stuff in the 4th edition Forgotten Realms - yet it's silly at this point to even talk about a new D&D edition or make predictions about it. The 3.5 game is selling more than any edition before it managed to do and it is bringing so up and high the game we love than it ever was before. Even in the current edition, we have alot of pubblished material for the Forgotten Realms, so why are you complaining? The rate of sourcebooks that come out for the Realms and Eberron is equal. The reason for why we do not have the tons of books we had during the 2nd edition days is because Wotc has a different pubblishing policy: It is primarily concerned with dishing out D&D generic material (it sells more) and miniatures. Specific campaign sourcebooks (Realms and Eberron) are next in the line right behind core and they both get the same support, albeit the Realms see almost the quintuple releases in novels than Eberron does. Everybody else agrees that the Realms will keep doing just fine in the distant 4th edition - if not better.
MarkusTay63 06-16-07, 04:52 PM	Did I say CORE? Does anybody remember using the word 'Core' at anytime in my post? If you had actually bothered to read my post, you would see I go on to explain myself. I NEVER said people who play in the Realms play 2.e , I said that people who play 2e tend to play in the Realms. Just like most of the folks using 1e rules are still playing in GH, and the people who use OD&D are still playing in Mystara. Not the other way around. There are far more people playing with 3e Forgotten Realms then 2e, and I know that. I think you are running into lingustic problems again. :rolleyes: The point I was trying to make is that with older editions, the edition you use usually determines the setting you prefer. From what I underrstand, Eberron outsells FR in most markets, so my logic still stands. People who play in 3e prefer to play in Eberron. That completely goes against a survey recently taken over at Paizo, but it matches up to WotC's sales figures. And sales figures are what matters, unfortunely, not opinions. :( Core and 'default' have similar but different meanings (as far as D&D goes). BTW - if you want to know why you are seing an FR heavy presence, just take a look around at the site your on. I know plenty that talk about the glories of Eberron non-stop, and hate FR. People here and at Paizo (and of course, CK) are heavily Realmsiocentric, so you are getting a skewed picture of the demographic. The 'kiddies' love Eberron, but 14 year olds aren't the type to go online and voice their opinions (usually). They vote with their dollars, or really, with their parent's dollars. Eberron is, unfortunatley, the next generation's setting of choice.
Francius 06-16-07, 05:15 PM	Did I say CORE? Does anybody remember using the word 'Core' at anyyime in my post? If you had actually bothered to read my post, you would see I go on to explain myself. Did I say you said CORE? Does anybody remember me saying that MarkusTay used the word "Core" at anytime in my post? If you had actually bothered to read my post you would have seen that I replied to this exact phrase: Originally Posted by MarkusTay63 The Realms are too popular in novels and video games to ever truly die, but I can see it fading into the background like Dragonlance. Francius' reply: The Forgotten Realms are outselling Eberron in the US market from what I know by friends I have overseas (and some info on Amazon and E-Bay), and you don't even want to be informed about how the pulp noir setting fares here in Europe where most hobby stores already stopped bringing new material about it because the only use they have for it is as "dust collectors" on their shelves. The Realms are big, vastly developped, deeply historied, richly detailed and more plentiful than any other fantasy world at the moment (or maybe ever) and to this add such a huge authors/designers team and countless fanbase - it's an easy understatement to say that they have a chance to (one day) become the world's most popular fantasy setting right behind Middle-Earth...you can't be even dreaming when you say that they will fade... Twenty years have passed and the setting is still stronger than ever. It is actually only now flexing its muscles; look at the products and novels coming out like mushrooms. I NEVER said people who play in the Realms play 2.e , I said that people who play 2e tend to play in the Realms. Just like most of the folks using 1e rules are still playing in GH, and the people who use OD&D are still playing in Mystara. Not the other way around. There are far more people playing with 3e Forgotten Realms then 2e, and I know that. Did I accuse you about anything of the above? Did I state that you said people who play in the Realms play mostly 2.e? What in the Simbul's and Paris Hilton's name are you talking about? I think you are running into linguistic problems again. :rolleyes: I think you are running into compehension problems again. :rolleyes: The point I was trying to make is that with older editions, the edition you use usually determines the setting you prefer. From what I understand, Eberron outsells FR in most markets, so my logic still stands. From what I see, people who play in the Forgotten Realms are much more numerous and the Eberron world fares poorly in most markets. To add, the setting that people play the most has nothing to do with the setting that is the default one for the current edition (Greyhawk). Check the PHB. What more evidence do you need? People who play in 3e prefer to play in Eberron. That completely goes against a survey recently taken over at Paizo, but it matches up to WotC's sales figures. Check Paizo, Amazon, and E-bay. Under the sales figures, the Realms books sell more. As a small example, the Forgotten Realms campaign setting currently outsells the Eberron one on a weekly by weekly basis of sales eventhough it's already been out for seven whole years. And from what I know, Wotc sales figures are giving right to me. And sales figures are what matters, unfortunely, not opinions. :( Right on. Core and 'default' have similar but different meanings (as far as D&D goes). Actually, they mean two different things. BTW - if you want to know why you are seing an FR heavy presence, just take a look around at the site your on. I know plenty that talk about the glories of Eberron non-stop, and hate FR. People here and at Paizo (and of course, CK) are heavily Realmsiocentric, so you are getting a skewed picture of the demographic. The 'kiddies' love Eberron, but 14 year olds aren't the type to go online and voice their opinions (usually). They vote with their dollars, or really, with their parent's dollars. And I know plenty who talk about the Forgotten Realms 24/7. From the very many people I know here in Italy and the rest of Europe, the Realms are in the wave's crest and Eberron isn't even close. I know that the latter setting fares better in the US, but even there the Realms run the gamut. But, again, opinions do not matter on such a subject. Sales figures do. And the Forgotten Realms are simply put on a larger statistical scale on them. Eberron is, unfortunatley, the next generation's setting of choice. That would definitely be the Forgotten Realms: the next and next and next generation's setting of choice. And then some!
MarkusTay63 06-16-07, 07:51 PM	I can only hope you are right. But I've been through this before... :(
XHereticX 06-16-07, 09:23 PM	D Eberron is, unfortunatley, the next generation's setting of choice. Hey, I am "the new generation", thankfully I despise Eberron and will work to give the realms more credit.
GothicDan 06-16-07, 09:28 PM	To GD and company. ...this argument may come off harsh. If so, please don’t read tone into it. I’m working on presenting arguments that sound less targeted and ‘lecture-like. In all honesty, I'm not even bothering to read the argument, because I already know I disagree with you vastly on the topic. I think I've done a lot already to try to analyze the evolution of the setting logically (from a non-'grognard' point of view), and my current opinions are those that aren't likely to change because someone else's game style differs from my own. Nothing personal - there's just no point in arguing preference. I, personally, wasn't arguing with anyone, so my argument can't be weak.
XHereticX 06-16-07, 09:30 PM	I like fluff as much as Dan or any of the other old-timers and don't exactly like where D&D is going. But change is immenent, complaining will do nothing except give you a migraine, and just take what we have and make the best with it.
Mr_Miscellany 06-16-07, 09:38 PM	I, personally, wasn't arguing with anyone, so my argument can't be weak. Even if you're indicating a subjective preference, it's still not immune from criticism. I simply disagree with the idea that the setting's only strenghts are theme, history, lore, etc...
Dark Wizard 06-16-07, 10:04 PM	This is why the claim that prestige classes and feats are not the way to hook people on FR is a weak argument. I wouldn't say that mechanics can't and don't draw players to the Realms, but your statement isn't exactly a solid argument either. Interesting setting mechanics don't hold water if the setting isn't interesting. If all you have are rules and nothing supporting the mechanics, there isn't much reason for the mechanics. Then you might as well be playing Core (diluted Greyhawk with the essence distilled, then watered down again). Even then, most of the interesting mechanics such as prestige classes present some sort of flavor, even if its generic. From what I've seen, mechanics are not a major aspect of a setting's appeal, even in 3e. You need not look further than Eberron. It seems the marketing doesn't emphasis the mechanics (artificer, dragonmarks, action points) but rather heavy focus on the theme and flavor of the setting. Many of the most stalwart fans seem to proclaim the same focus on the setting's interesting take on the standard D&D troupes (noir pulp vs. standard sword and sorcery, reimagined races, internally consistent magic use, singular cosmology, an antibellum vibe, lack of established heroes, focus on impending overwhelming evil pressing in on the edges of reality, etc.). The mechanics seem quite secondary, they help the setting, but they don't make the setting. I feel your so-called argument is unnecessary in this case. The overall response to the OP seems to be that the setting's flavor will remain and the next set of mechanics will mold itself to fit the Realms. I don't believe anyone said there will not be mechanics for the Realms in the next edition, not even GothicDan. Take a look through his recent posts, such as the Elven Netbook, various Kara-Tur ones, and a few in the general section. He has shown a competent grasp of mechanics and an appreciation for mechanics that reinforce flavor and history. Personally I find most of the Realms specific PrCs uninspiring. Some of them have good lore but muddled mechanics, a few have excellent mechanics but are about as relevant, specific, or appropriate to the Realms as face-painted football fans at a political convention. I often find myself adapting core PrCs rather than using native FR ones.
DinwathSereglin 06-17-07, 12:59 AM	As I've said before, the Lord of the Rings films are as faithful as they are (and that very incompletely) because the cultural weight and penetration of the books meant that not just the director and writers but the crew knew them, and the studio didn't try to seriously rework them for its own needs. I surely hope you aren't married. Your definition of faithful could lead to copious legal fees. I actually feel sorry for Christopher Lee. He committed himself to the project and didn't discover that the director was a fraud and hack until it was too late to back out. He at least had the dignity to skip out on the premiere of the last "film" in the series.
Dark Wizard 06-17-07, 02:37 AM	I surely hope you aren't married. Your definition of faithful could lead to copious legal fees. I actually feel sorry for Christopher Lee. He committed himself to the project and didn't discover that the director was a fraud and hack until it was too late to back out. He at least had the dignity to skip out on the premiere of the last "film" in the series. You might want to actually read his post first: As I've said before, the Lord of the Rings films are as faithful as they are (and that very incompletely) because the cultural weight and penetration of the books meant that not just the director and writers but the crew knew them, and the studio didn't try to seriously rework them for its own needs.
GothicDan 06-17-07, 04:55 PM	Even if you're indicating a subjective preference, it's still not immune from criticism. True. I simply disagree with the idea that the setting's only strenghts are theme, history, lore, etc... Those should be the strengths of ANY setting, in my opinion. The mechanics are aspects of the rules system that support it. Personally, I've found all aspects of D&D insufficient in terms of properly portraying what the Realms is (at least what I've seen it to be via novels and stories).
GothicDan 06-17-07, 04:57 PM	He has shown a competent grasp of mechanics and an appreciation for mechanics that reinforce flavor and history. Thank you, Dark. And this is where I feel that WotC went wrong with mechanics in the Realms. A lot of their feats and PrCs do little more than provide even more mechanical choices for the players, with no actual enhancement of the setting's innate flavor or history. I in fact have a huge list of items in my "mechanics" document of my "Aryvandaar" folder on my desktop.
XHereticX 06-17-07, 05:35 PM	There should always be a balance between fluff and crunch with no one side overstepping the other. If there is too much crunch then the setting is hollow and cold, just a bunch of figurations, not true role-playing. But if there is only fluff then the setting is like a car with no wheels to move, no stats and PRCs to bring the story to life, and the fact that too much lore hampers the ability to derive from canon in many situations. With only the core rules, you would have no ability to really express all that "lore" you are given. No one element is more important than the other, there are no extremes, but there should be balance. Crunch and fluff should entwine and complement each other to create a truly remarkable gaming experience. When you are making a recipe you should never put too much of one ingredient and leave out too much of another. The main reason I think why WoTC is focusing on crunch right now is because they believe that most people that buy Realms products now are old timers from 2nd edition who already have the old products with all the "lore" inside it and now with 3rd they are just trying to provide stats to flesh out all this in a new edition of the game. They even provided free downloads on their site to convey this message. The Realms to them is a constant mine, a place they know where old fans will poar their money, but they seem to have little hope of it attracting many of the new generation. Eberron on the other hand, they are poaring enough fluff and lore inside to build the foundation of a new RPG monopoly, so that when they release 4th, they will already have a powerful fanbase from which to launch a new dynasty of role-playing just like FR has done for 2nd and 3rd. Also, they seems to like homebrew and with all those core books seems to encourage that kind of play with their mechanical concentration. I can't say I like all these changes, but I find no use in complaining over the inevitable.
Faraer 06-17-07, 07:05 PM	Heck, El was only 26th level in the oldest book I have with him in it (AFAIK, might have something kickin in a random box somewhere) and now he's. . . what. . . 35th or something?It's mainly a matter of across-the-board level inflation, not differences between settings.Mechanics can be transported to any setting. It's harder to do so with lore.So some say, but I can't see that a bare prestige class or new mechanic with no established presence in your setting is easier to transport than an inn, NPC, or local secret society. A new type of things is a bigger change than a new thing of an existing type.I surely hope you aren't married. Your definition of faithful could lead to copious legal fees.My open-ended wording was deliberate.There should always be a balance between fluff and crunch with no one side overstepping the other.When people say "there should be a balance" they usually mean "the combination I like". D&D sourcebooks about the Realms should, you would think, have information about the Realms and whatever rules content is needed to use that information in D&D. But that's not a fixed amount, it varies with DMing styles, and that's where much of the disagreement comes from.I can't say I like all these changes, but I find no use in complaining over the inevitable.Even if your interpretations are right, they're only inevitable as long as the same people stay in decision-making positions and don't change their minds.
XHereticX 06-17-07, 07:57 PM	Faraer, Faraer, a few outspoken fans on the boards aren't going to change anything. Wizards listens when the silent majority comes and gives them money for what they are currently doing.
Faraer 06-17-07, 08:09 PM	I don't think anyone is under the impression that posting our views will, of itself, change policies at Wizards of the Coast. Of all feedback, of course sales and market research speak loudest. But this information is limited and difficult to use. No one can be sure what aspects of a given book raised or lowered sales, or compare sales of what's published to things that weren't. If their marketing department is like anyone else's, it tends to interpret data to support what it wants to do already. And of course, the majority of D&D players don't buy supplemental books at all, and many, perhaps most potential players don't know what D&D is. So the only potential majority is of people currently buying the books, a group that's shaped in turn by the books put out, and it's only partly knowable.
Green Elven Vampire 06-17-07, 08:45 PM	If D&D comes out with a 4th edition, then I will personally slay whoever had the idea. 4th edition better be far, far away and very very cheap!!!
ShadezofDis 06-18-07, 10:27 AM	It's mainly a matter of across-the-board level inflation, not differences between settings. Yep, that's what I was trying to say. Sometimes it doesn't come across clear. :) Though I would say that FR > GH when it comes to the amount of uber casters. This is why the claim that prestige classes and feats are not the way to hook people on FR is a weak argument. I would agree with you if; When the PrC was presented there was some sort of lore that went along with it. Perhaps "regions where the PrC is most prevalent" and maybe "The Guild Thief PrC is mostly encountered in larger metropolises where an established guild or 3 have existed for over a decade. Roughly 3% of the guild will have some class levels in Guild Thief." One of the toughest things I find in my DMing is figuring out where certain PrCs will be prevalent and who may be willing to teach a PC (due to my stricture of "You need to be taught a PrC") Now, I'm not saying there is no information on this, there are regional feats and more regionally focused PrCs (Red Wizard springs to mind ;)) but for the most part the majority of PrCs feel like they're not really a part of FR. I would love to check out any books that people feel were especially good at making the PrCs feel like they are part of the lore, so if you have any suggestions about books that you think they did really well on just say so. :)
Francius 06-18-07, 12:43 PM	I don't think anyone is under the impression that posting our views will, of itself, change policies at Wizards of the Coast. True. Wizards listens when the silent majority comes and gives them money for what they are currently doing. That's right, kiddo. The numbers do exist to read and I can tell you that the Forgotten Realms are still outrunning everything similar to them out there (i.e: other campaign worlds). Fans do not have to prove anything by lamenting themselves on some discusion boards; their interest, love and numbers are what matters the most to the life of a "product" and ultimately to a commercial company. Since I see that you're somewhat young and you must have only recently embraced the Realms world, know ye then that the amount of fanbase and supporters Abeir-Toril has (especially in Europe) by far surpasses every other fictional fantasy world's one. What you write about the "Eberron vs the Realms" issue is off no basis and I sincerely (to say the least) see no point in worrying. The Realms sell more, attract more people of a mature age with more money to spend compared to some teenagers, are more akin to the classic high medieval fantasy ambientation everyone shows interest in and the authors/writers/designers behind them provides a rock solid base on which a fictional setting can grow, last and flourish. To say that the Realms will eventually be overshadowed by some other setting or even fade into the background... well... it simply makes me laugh. Twenty years of success with a whole lot more to come should be of some clue about the success of a franchise, no? Happy gaming.
Renvale999 06-18-07, 01:08 PM	Personally, I don't like the Eberron source books...I have them cause I collect D&D books as a hobby more so than anything else...but there isn't nearly as much USEFUL information in them as say "The Shining South". I ran an Eberron game probably a year ago and I cracked open the source books like maybe...twice...three times at most. I'm currenly running a FR game and I can't keep my head out of the source books. I like Eberron for the feel of the setting...but I think they need to spend a little more time on the source books, and put more useful stuff in them. And BTW, if 4 ed comes out like anytime soon...I'm gonna march up to the Wizards of the Coast's stronghold and give a beat down...I ain't got the money for a new edition right now...so don't even think about it....you hear me WIZARDS???!!!
421 06-18-07, 02:46 PM	How will FR survive 4ed ? Come on ! The heart is still beating, The body isn't cold yet, But the brain is dead for quite some time...
XHereticX 06-18-07, 06:51 PM	Oh, the Realms will continue, no doubt about that, and I am happy. :) That is what I'm trying to say, the Realms may get forced into the shadows a little(hopefully not too much), but will never die, and there is no reason to fret over it.
Renvale999 06-18-07, 07:25 PM	How will FR survive 4ed ? Come on ! The heart is still beating, The body isn't cold yet, But the brain is dead for quite some time... I think that's an unfair assumption. I think alot of intelligent/well designed stuff has come out in the 3.0/3.5. I like the War of the Spider Queen and to be honest I like the return of Bane. Meh, but that's just me.
Mr_Miscellany 06-19-07, 12:56 AM	I think WotC’s ability to gauge fan reaction and reader desires is at least as good as it was up to and during the turn of the century, which means it’s stellar. I don’t believe their willingness to balance that knowledge vs. the core themes of their properties (read: Settings) nor their desire to make a buck is in as good a shape. The big turn (in the wrong direction) IMO occurred on or about the first round of firings at WotC. At roughly this time (before? after? I don’t remember...) Sean Reynolds wrote his allegorical tale -and appeal for help- The Story of Donut Cores and Forgotten Rums (http://www.seankreynolds.com/rpgfiles/gaming/gaming.html). This is where we see a shift in focus from balanced products that tried to tell readers about the lore of the setting, as well as give them the rules that result from that lore, to less lore filled books and especially non-Realms books with not much in the way of even generic lore for DMs of all types to build from. In the years since that downturn I think WotC has turned a corner, inasmuch as Realms products are concerned, because Realms products simply are not as unbalanced in terms of fluff (lore) vs. crunch as people on these boards make them out to be; far from it, in fact. And they’re getting better with each new release. Prestige Classes in particular are much better (though to be perfectly fair there are some PrC’s that are so hideous and not-what-PrCs-should-be ....like the Elven High Mage, for one). However, their non-Realms and non-Eberron products are very, very hollow when it comes to non-mechanical information for players. In fact it’s only in DM-useful material that WotC’s found a way to push mechanics in the right way for DMs to use in telling great player-centered stories....WotC’s expansion of Core material for DM’s [building encounters, building story lines, using environments and societies to fuel play and the imagination] has gotten LOADS better. Eberron is probably the perfect example of the proper melding of rules and story. It’s a highly rules oriented setting (geared towards players via the races in particular) that derives virtually all of its unique and creative rules from its setting lore. These mechanics draw players into the setting and immerse them in its lore/history simply by giving them the option to play shifters, Kalashtar, War Forged, Artificers or Dragon Marked characters. PM Miss Miscellany if you don’t believe me. She’ll write you a book on the subject. In closing, if the Realms (read: it’s designers) does not continue to translate its unique setting elements into interesting mechanics that players can interact with, then it will fail (or at least fall back a distant second to Eberron) as a gaming product. The setting and its story lines are enough to sell novels, but not enough to sustain it as a gaming setting by the time 4th Edition comes about.
Lana "Silvertongue" 06-19-07, 02:47 AM	If forth edition comes out in the next 10 years, I would hope they finally make the jump to go truely generic with the core. My pain comes when buying core mechanics (Complete Champion is fresh on the brain), but little guidence with regards to translating it into Realmsy fare. Prestige classes in the core should be focused around the "base" like Domains or alignments for Clerics, weapons and fighting styles for fighters and schools of magic and magical concepts for wizards. Then support books for integration into each of the campaign settings provide the fluff and alternate concepts. The domain feats are essentially my concept in print... I just want it translated across the board as to appease all campaign worlds and homebrewers in one shot.
MarkusTay63 06-19-07, 02:42 PM	If forth edition comes out in the next 10 years, I would hope they finally make the jump to go truely generic with the core.The Realms going 'core' at first seems like a very bad idea, but since I think more folks play in the Realms, and the 'kiddies' are familiar with it through video games and Drizzt, then perhaps it wouldn't be so bad. In fact, it might be both a sound business decision AND fan-pleasing, which seems to be tricky to pull off these days. As a long time lover of GH, I may shed a tear when it finally slips away into the Abyss forever, but that may be a good thing in the long-run as well. If they make FR core, then they can sell the rights to GH to some 3rd party who truly has love for the setting, and it could finally get the treatment it deserves. And then everything that comes out wil be FR, unless otherwise attached to a different line. That would greatly expand the rate at which we get products, but the down side is tons of useless crunch (dozens of classes, PrCs, and Races that make no sense and no one would choose). Since we are already seeing much of that over-crunch anyway, then the doubling or possibly even tripling of lore would be worth having to deal with the cr@p (notice I don't even picture a scenrio where we aren't fed some cr@p). Actually I have a billion dollar idea on how to send D&D into the next level. Had the folks over at AOL just listed to me 15 years ago they wouldn't be floundering now. Also, it would tie directly into WotC's new netcentric approach to certain things, and generate income from hundreds of alternate sources as well. Put me on the payroll Hasbro, and I'll show you how to get rich.... some more. ;) If you build it, they will come.....
King_Neckchopper 06-19-07, 03:29 PM	I agree Paris should play the Simbul. They actually have a lot in common. ;) Thats like saying Christen Dunst, is a good choice for Mary Jane. i think Pam Anderson died red would be the better choice for MJ. As for the Simbul I think Angelina Jolie would by far be the better choice. Paris Hilton is wak! Not Hot at all, did you see her porn? that was the worse virgin like sex I ever seen.
Keryth 06-19-07, 03:51 PM	I think they just need to smooth out many of the transition bumps. Some of the pieces saddled on by TSR need real updates and overhauls. The NPCs need to be toned down, closer to their original incarnations, if they need to be stat'ed at all. Some of the useless crunch needs to be reworked to make it mechanics that support the feeling of the setting. They need to move away from marketing the setting only as the playground of RSEs and focus more of smaller adventures (which would have personal stakes just as important to the characters as major events). A lot of little things from the 2e to 3e jump when the designers were still new to the edition. I think FR can learn from the presentation format of Eberron. FR books should try to state its fundamental themes and style more clearly (almost in a list in Eberron) so its crystal clear to the people who keep stereotyping it. An actual art direction wouldn't hurt either, rather than just commissioning pieces from any artist available and giving them nearly free reign. Planescape had a distinct look that helped promote the vibe of the setting. Maybe in 4e, Eberron can go first so FR can learn from the mistakes made. :P PS: A Realms movie would probably turn out horrible, even if it was directed by a fan. Courtney Solomon was a gamer, the D&D movie still turned out poorly. And Peter Jackson was a LOTR fan and we saw how well those turned out. Mistake with D&D movie, other than the script and cast, was the fact that they DIDN'T use one of the existing worlds. Greyhawk, The Realms, Krynn, were all viable, yet we got the crapfest they gave us. The true test comes in Sept when the first Dragonlance movie (albeit animated, but some of the talent doing voices is great) hits. If it does well, we may be able to get an FR movie (personally, I'd like Darkwalker on Moonshae, but I know most want a Drizz't movie)
Keryth 06-19-07, 04:03 PM	Low-level is one of the things I really like about Eberron. I used to feel about GH the way I feel about FR (in the beginning, I refused to even look at FR!). In that setting, the most powerful wizards on the planet were all around level 18... or lower. Iuz was the 'big bad guy', who was the GH equvalent of Sauron. Elminster wouldn't even break a sweat on him. Its just sad that the game has gone to power-players and RP has fallen by the wayside. I remember some really great game sessions where nary a dice was rolled. :cloud9: Video games have destroyed RPing, IMHO. It's all about leveling now, and who has the best junk. Welcome to 3rd Edition. Prestige Classes and Munchkins rule the day. Role playing has fallen to the WoW mindset of ganking and power gaming (and I LIKe WoW too :) )
Meldread 06-19-07, 06:56 PM	As for the Simbul I think Angelina Jolie would by far be the better choice. Paris Hilton is wak! Not Hot at all, did you see her porn? that was the worse virgin like sex I ever seen. :rofl: Paris Hilton a virgin now that's funny. As for the Simbul and Paris, think about it. Both characters are flat and boring, think they can do whatever they want and get away with it, and act like they are the center of the entire universe.
XHereticX 06-19-07, 07:51 PM	Miscelleny, I have to admit your points have merit, but please, no todying of that horrible abomination called Eberron on the FR boards:)
MarkusTay63 06-19-07, 08:49 PM	In her prime, Kelly LeBrock was THE Simbul. http://www.kutha.com/weirdscience/images/lisa.gif Picture curtesy of the movie Weird Science. There is only one reason for a fourth edition - sales of third edition are falling off. That doesn't mean WE need it, it means THEY need it, and we will be forced to buy it. BAH! :pbbbtt:
Dark Wizard 06-19-07, 09:09 PM	As for the Simbul and Paris, think about it. Both characters are flat and boring, think they can do whatever they want and get away with it, and act like they are the center of the entire universe. Not sure where you get the center of the universe thing for the Simbul, but the Simbul does differ for the Heiress in that she's actually talented at something, plus she probably wouldn't whine and cry while going to and being in prison. The Simbul would probably either kill anyone who tried to imprison her, contemplate about how to kill the people who do manage to imprison her, usually through the most spectacular magical deaths possible, or she might play along for fun until she got bored where she would then begin planning her jailer's spectacular magical death. In her prime, Kelly LeBrock was THE Simbul. But have you seen her now? :yuck: I've always thought Famke Jansen would make a good Simbul.
Mr_Miscellany 06-19-07, 09:21 PM	Miscelleny, I have to admit your points have merit, but please, no todying of that horrible abomination called Eberron on the FR boards:) Ahh...OK, my bad. Miss Miscellany made me do it. ;)
XHereticX 06-19-07, 09:21 PM	In her prime, Kelly LeBrock was THE Simbul. http://www.kutha.com/weirdscience/images/lisa.gif Picture curtesy of the movie Weird Science. There is only one reason for a fourth edition - sales of third edition are falling off. That doesn't mean WE need it, it means THEY need it, and we will be forced to buy it. BAH! :pbbbtt: eww, that is NOT the Simbul. Remember folks, WoTC is a company first and foremost, it thinks about its profits. Unless 3rd edition starts selling better, 4th might just be on the horizon, so buy buy buy:D
Meldread 06-19-07, 10:49 PM	Not sure where you get the center of the universe thing for the Simbul, but the Simbul does differ for the Heiress in that she's actually talented at something, plus she probably wouldn't whine and cry while going to and being in prison. The Simbul would probably either kill anyone who tried to imprison her, contemplate about how to kill the people who do manage to imprison her, usually through the most spectacular magical deaths possible, or she might play along for fun until she got bored where she would then begin planning her jailer's spectacular magical death. :rofl: True. However, you have to be fair to Paris. -IF- she had the Simbul's powers, aside from making herself Queen of the Universe, she would do the same thing. :P Also, as she uses her spectacular magical powers to slay everyone who tried to imprison her she'd somehow find a way to STILL ensure that she's the center of attention.
Xavier_of_Cormyr 06-19-07, 11:33 PM	:rolleye2: Low-level is one of the things I really like about Eberron. I used to feel about GH the way I feel about FR (in the beginning, I refused to even look at FR!). In that setting, the most powerful wizards on the planet were all around level 18... or lower. Iuz was the 'big bad guy', who was the GH equvalent of Sauron. Elminster wouldn't even break a sweat on him. Its just sad that the game has gone to power-players and RP has fallen by the wayside. I remember some really great game sessions where nary a dice was rolled. :cloud9: Video games have destroyed RPing, IMHO. It's all about leveling now, and who has the best junk. Amen brutha.... although if Iuz was in FR, he'd be a half fiend chosen of some evil god, blackguard mystic theurge assassin with innate vile powers and at least 3 unique templates.
Dark Wizard 06-19-07, 11:38 PM	True. However, you have to be fair to Paris. -IF- she had the Simbul's powers, aside from making herself Queen of the Universe, she would do the same thing. No, she would probably still be a whiny spoiled b*tch. Also, as she uses her spectacular magical powers to slay everyone who tried to imprison her she'd somehow find a way to STILL ensure that she's the center of attention. Like I said before, I'm not sure where you're seeing the diva attitude of the Simbul. From what I've read of her, which I'll admit is not much, she's too "weird" to want to be the center of attention. To me, the Simbul seems to be the most socially awkward (conventional sociality that is) of the sisters and might make up for a lot of it through raw charisma, brute force of personality; whatever that is. So just because you find yourself staring at the weird sorceress doesn't mean it's a conscious decision on her part (whereas I think the Heiress is trying too hard to be in the public spotlight). I think I might have hit upon a definition of charisma (one of the many), but I'm digressing from the original topic.
Jahx 06-20-07, 12:22 AM	I hope 4E will be a long time in coming, but when it does, it will probably come with its own CS or use Eberron. WoTC seems intent on pushing Eberron despite all the negative feelings about it. Forgotten Realms is my favorite setting, but I liked all the other settings ever put out by WoTC and TSR, except Eberron. I was always willing to embrace a new world and funnel games into it. I could easily switch back and forth between the other worlds because they were all medieval fantasy worlds. Eberron pushed the limits too far. Hopefully, if WoTC learns anything from the Eberron experiment, it is that D&D is made for a medieval fantasy world, not cyberpunk and "Dinotopia". Maybe the 4E world will go back to D&D roots. I doubt Dragonlance and all the other worlds that have been introduced for D&D over the decades have received as much hate mail as Eberron. If WoTC continues to put out FR books and guides after 4E, I will buy them, as will many others like me. Just like I replaced all of my old 2E stuff with 3.X, I will do the same with 4E, as long as FR exists... and DL... and GH... XHereticX summed it up for me though: Still, I will NEVER embrace Eberron. I so solemly swear by God:embarrass I intend to make that my mantra. I am going to add it to my sig (giving you the credit, of course, XHereticX)
Dark Wizard 06-20-07, 12:35 AM	I could easily switch back and forth between the other worlds because they were all medieval fantasy worlds. Eberron pushed the limits too far. I think that part about Eberron having a more modern sensibility is just all hype and marketing. Aside from a few minor modifications and setting peculiarities, Eberron is more or less just another D&D world with a mostly pseudo-medieval vibe (that so happens to have a few other elements to spice things up, not even particular to just that setting when considering just D&D settings). I think that's one of the faults of the setting, that it didn't take things far enough, but that's a discussion for another day. Basically don't believe the company marketing and fan hype.
XHereticX 06-20-07, 11:21 AM	I hope 4E will be a long time in coming, but when it does, it will probably come with its own CS or use Eberron. WoTC seems intent on pushing Eberron despite all the negative feelings about it. Forgotten Realms is my favorite setting, but I liked all the other settings ever put out by WoTC and TSR, except Eberron. I was always willing to embrace a new world and funnel games into it. I could easily switch back and forth between the other worlds because they were all medieval fantasy worlds. Eberron pushed the limits too far. Hopefully, if WoTC learns anything from the Eberron experiment, it is that D&D is made for a medieval fantasy world, not cyberpunk and "Dinotopia". Maybe the 4E world will go back to D&D roots. I doubt Dragonlance and all the other worlds that have been introduced for D&D over the decades have received as much hate mail as Eberron. If WoTC continues to put out FR books and guides after 4E, I will buy them, as will many others like me. Just like I replaced all of my old 2E stuff with 3.X, I will do the same with 4E, as long as FR exists... and DL... and GH... XHereticX summed it up for me though: I intend to make that my mantra. I am going to add it to my sig (giving you the credit, of course, XHereticX) Amen my brother, amen.:cool: Eberron is just a flashy marketing tool used to attract the whole modern-gaming/WoW generation (my generation). They thought that old fashioned high fantasy role-playing is consitered boring today and decide to throw in some pseudo-steampunk elements with low-leveled "swashbuckling"(whatever that is supposed to mean in gaming terms) adventure. Unfortunatly, its working. Oh, did you know Keith Baker actually intended Eberron originally to be a MMORPG, but changed it into a D&D setting after his old idea failed. Strange how Eberron is so low leveled while MMOs are all about leveling-up(probably why his idea failed;) ). We certainly don't need another Guild Wars.
captaincarot 06-20-07, 01:19 PM	well the speed they seem to be killing off major personalities from the realms at the moment, the only people left in a few months time will be elminster and a small chimpanzee called cecil. does this mean the realms will be taking a major back seat in 4th edition to that eberon stuff and nonsense. i certainly hope not, and as for losing the bloke with the dark coloured big stick i am really not happy about it at all. neither am i at all happy about losing the nutter with the dirty coat type thingy. hopefully guarded those 2 comments sufficiently so that they can't be construed as spoilers. stop killing the famous guys. some people like them. though i really do think that if a 4th edition comes along in the near future this may well see my final parting with D&D, i just won't buy anything anymore and ill read the books from the library. and write my own adventures.
XHereticX 06-20-07, 04:26 PM	Darn it Carot, stop making me feel so depressed, the wonderful Realms cannot and will not be replaced by that heresy, that abomination, that lame excuse for D&D. Yeah, well, even if that does happen, FR is too popular and if it isn't continued by WoTC it will at least by liscenced off to another company like DL was.
Karsus the Mad 06-20-07, 07:52 PM	Darn it Carot, stop making me feel so depressed, the wonderful Realms cannot and will not be replaced by that heresy, that abomination, that lame excuse for D&D. Yeah, well, even if that does happen, FR is too popular and if it isn't continued by WoTC it will at least by liscenced off to another company like DL was. Have you even bothered reading anything Eberron, let alone play in Eberron? I haven't. Thus I chose not to be a prejudgmental ass towards those that choose a setting that for once utilizes any logic.
XHereticX 06-20-07, 08:00 PM	Have you even bothered reading anything Eberron, let alone play in Eberron? I haven't. Thus I chose not to be a prejudgmental ass towards those that choose a setting that for once utilizes any logic. I know people who play it, I took one look at the campaign book, flipped through it, saw these weird freakish machines that looked like messed tinker-gnome suits, TRAINS, stupid cosmology, low-level play(for gods sake lv 10 is consitered high in this setting). Overall, its has all the traits of something wrapped in a nice and shiny bundle that sucks on the inside. The only things that actually half-appeal to me are the Warforged, Eberron Goblins, and the good orcs. I am not critisizing anyone who loves the setting based on their own personal preferences, that is their choice and I am in no condition to judge them. Still, it kind of saddens me that WoTC has taken this drastic of a step and is moving D&D closer and close to the post-modern era. For gods sake, I have always regarded D&D as something to help me escape from the real world.
Jewelprotector 06-20-07, 08:40 PM	"Two of the Forgotten Realms most legendary heroes, the deadly drow ranger Drizzt Do'Urden (Orlando Bloom) and the mythic wizard Elminster (Burt Reynolds) team up with the help of the Simbul (Paris Hilton), sorceress-queen from the mystic land of Aglarond, in a hilariously sexy, action-packed, high-fantasy action-adventure to save the magical world of Faerun from the evil alliance of the forces of Lord Shadow (Jeremy Irons) and the orc-king Obould (WWE wrestling flavor of the month)." Directed by Paul W.S. Anderson with a script by bestselling FR author Richard Awlinson. *shudder* The Plastic Princess as Queen of Aglarond?! Although I can't imagine anyone else in Hollywood today plausibly sleeping with Burt Reynolds... I really need to win Powerball. Can we say, fan movie?:D
Dark Wizard 06-20-07, 09:26 PM	*shudder* The Plastic Princess as Queen of Aglarond?! Although I can't imagine anyone else in Hollywood today plausibly sleeping with Burt Reynolds... That's a scary thought, so scary it might work. :coolcthul It could be one of those cult things that revives the careers of both actors (and I use the term very loosely for at least one of them). Okay, I'm just kidding, seriously. WotC should NOT pay attention to this. But given their record for the D&D movie, this sort of thing actually is possible from them; and to them it might actually seem a good idea. Now that's truly frightening. I really need to win Powerball. Can we say, fan movie?:D If I had copious amounts of money I would just buy the Realms from WotC (I'm sure they have their price, we are talking theoretical amounts of money here), then it won't be a fan film anymore. Set up a gaming/fiction company with the Realms as the lead product, probably give a stake to Ed and hire most of the most revered designers and authors to keep the thing running feasibly. In dreams we can think big, but the reality is much more humble, or more correctly - broke.
Jewelprotector 06-20-07, 10:22 PM	Sigh... wishes...horses...and fan films! Actually, I wouldn't want the Realms...I have whole worlds in my own head already, and I spend a good 70% of my time there. As for the ORIGINAL question--the Realms will survive as long as people keep playing in them. Same for Greyhawk, and yes, Ebberon. I like all three settings, actually, as well as Krynn and some of the "homegrown" worlds my gaming buddies have come up with over the years. What I have discovered is that the setting isn't nearly as important as the group. If your DM doesn't know what he's doing (and is apparently incapable of learning 'on the job'), if the other players' style isn't compatible with yours (or they're just a bunch of dorks; it does happen,) then you're not going to have a good time regardless of the setting. Granted, I'm a method actor; I get very attached to my characters and their stories. The background is just that: scenery. Of course, the background can contribute to those stories by helping provide unique hooks. (For instance, my last Ebberon character was prejudiced against warforged, and my last Dragonlance character was a kender who fell in love with a dwarf.) But to me, the story comes first, which is why I often ignore 'cannon events' if they don't fit the campaign I have planned. (Yes, I know there are DM's who would have me burned in effigy for that.)
Jahx 06-21-07, 12:00 PM	Have you even bothered reading anything Eberron, let alone play in Eberron? I haven't. Thus I chose not to be a prejudgmental ass towards those that choose a setting that for once utilizes any logic. I don't think anyone is judging those who play the setting. I for one, would not have a problem with Eberron, if it was just another world created for D&D. What I have a problem with, is that it is the official campaign setting for D&D now. I just think that the primary campaign setting for a medieval fantasy game should be a medieval fantasy world. On another note, Karsus. I checked out your artwork from your sig and it rocks.
XHereticX 06-21-07, 12:11 PM	I don't think anyone is judging those who play the setting. I for one, would not have a problem with Eberron, if it was just another world created for D&D. What I have a problem with, is that it is the official campaign setting for D&D now. I just think that the primary campaign setting for a medieval fantasy game should be a medieval fantasy world. On another note, Karsus. I checked out your artwork from your sig and it rocks. Totally agree with you, I have no problem with Eberron existing and people enjoying and playing it. But when its very existence threatens the foundation of D&D and crumbles the setting that I love and play in, sending 30 years of hard work into hip-hop/pseudo/modern culture just like everything is going today, it just makes me feel like this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HmZEbmk0Sc8
marcel_deathbringer 06-21-07, 01:07 PM	Why does everyone have such a hard on for 4th Edition??
Uzzy 06-21-07, 01:50 PM	It's the big thing for bored DnD'ers to debate. Don't quite understand why WOTC would update to 4th Edition any time soon. 3.5 works fine, and I've spent lots of money on the various hardback sourcebooks for FR. I wouldn't want to upgrade, unless they come up with something spectacular! Anyway, as long as a certain bearded Canadian keeps pumping out Realmslore, and the community of fans enjoy it and love the setting, FR will survive to 10th Edition.
hawkinsthedm 06-21-07, 02:09 PM	Might I also point out that there are the continents of Kara-Tur, Maztica, Anchrome, Zakhara, and an un-named continent; also, the Forgotten Realms is a strong line of novels that I do not think will die. I personally hope they will bring back Spelljamming, then they can detail of the planets in Realmspace's crystal sphere. And, yes, I know that they canned Kara-Tur for Rokugan in Oriental Adventures, but that could always change. From what I have seen there is a loud call for a 3.5 OA book, and even if that doesn't happen, they may decide to restore Kara-Tur in the way mystical future when they finally decide to design DnD 4. I really do not know what all the hype is about version 4. Wizards shows absolutely no plans of upgrading to it anytime soon.
marcel_deathbringer 06-21-07, 02:28 PM	It's the big thing for bored DnD'ers to debate. Don't quite understand why WOTC would update to 4th Edition any time soon. 3.5 works fine, and I've spent lots of money on the various hardback sourcebooks for FR. I wouldn't want to upgrade, unless they come up with something spectacular! Anyway, as long as a certain bearded Canadian keeps pumping out Realmslore, and the community of fans enjoy it and love the setting, FR will survive to 10th Edition. I guess. But I play D&D and I get bored, but I don't go off on crazy tangents about D&D 75th edition. Why can't people just be happy with what currently exists?? I was rather upset when I learned 3e was coming out, I liked 2e just fine. Thats capitalism for you. I just think it's silly for everyone to keep theorizing about 4e, when as far as I know, there are no plans (nor does there need to be) a new D&D edition.
Alediran 06-21-07, 03:26 PM	I guess. But I play D&D and I get bored, but I don't go off on crazy tangents about D&D 75th edition. Why can't people just be happy with what currently exists?? I was rather upset when I learned 3e was coming out, I liked 2e just fine. Thats capitalism for you. I just think it's silly for everyone to keep theorizing about 4e, when as far as I know, there are no plans (nor does there need to be) a new D&D edition. Yet the hints are there. With every change of edition there where massive changes happening during those times. From 1ed to 2ed there was the ToT. From 2ed to 3rd I don't have any idea what they were, but I know they existed. Now we got tons of novels with RSE again after a time of calm. Adding the time each edition was alive, we are reaching the time for a change. That is the reason why the 4th edition is being discused.
marcel_deathbringer 06-21-07, 04:19 PM	Yet the hints are there. With every change of edition there where massive changes happening during those times. From 1ed to 2ed there was the ToT. From 2ed to 3rd I don't have any idea what they were, but I know they existed. Now we got tons of novels with RSE again after a time of calm. Adding the time each edition was alive, we are reaching the time for a change. That is the reason why the 4th edition is being discused. You speak of 4e llike its Armegeddon. "we are reaching the time of change" It just really amazes me that people are already so bored with 3.5 that they have to conjure up reasons why 4e is so imminent. I for one will refuse to buy a 4e product if it is released in the next 5 years. At that point all it would be is WOTC executives lining their pockets. WoTC execs. no longer care about the product or the people using the product, they care about making (and selling) enough product to keep their pockets fat and bank accounts full. And the more you people talk about 4e, the more WoTC is going to think there is a huge market for a new edition already and poof, it will happen. But maybe you have endless funds to waste on books, I however do not. So I dunno. I just people would let it be for now. :confused:
Jewelprotector 06-21-07, 08:44 PM	And the more you people talk about 4e, the more WoTC is going to think there is a huge market for a new edition already and poof, it will happen. But maybe you have endless funds to waste on books, I however do not. So I dunno. I just people would let it be for now. :confused: I have to admit, I hadn't even heard about a 4e until I spied this thread. And no, I won't be buying it any time soon, even if it did hit the shelves, which it won't, because I have little enough disposable income as it is. And about the Realms specifically? Like the Bible, it will survive as long as people keep believing in it.
DrowBattlemind 06-22-07, 02:14 AM	Sheesh, 4th edition does not exist. It MAY exist sometime in the future, but for now, it's vaporware, folks. All this thread is going to do is convince some bean-counter up the ladder at Hasbro, inc. that we "love the idea of a fourth edition", simply because we can't seem to quit talking about it...
marcel_deathbringer 06-22-07, 09:37 AM	Sheesh, 4th edition does not exist. It MAY exist sometime in the future, but for now, it's vaporware, folks. All this thread is going to do is convince some bean-counter up the ladder at Hasbro, inc. that we "love the idea of a fourth edition", simply because we can't seem to quit talking about it... Precisely!
Kid SixXx 06-22-07, 10:26 AM	TRAINS You complain about trains when FR has airships that look like green cigars? And your campaign had this stuff way before Eberron did. (http://www.rpgnet.gr/store/products/shining_south.jpg) ;) I personally don't see a problem with FR surviving 4ed... Especially when over half of you guys probably still play FR in 2ed anyway & will buy 4ed FR books by the gross ton just to have something to read, analyze, and then dissect in threads on this boards. I await the "4ed Ruined Mythals and Elven High Magic!" thread with great anticipation.
Karsus the Mad 06-22-07, 02:25 PM	I await the "4ed Ruined Mythals and Elven High Magic!" thread with great anticipation. Hehehe
Francius 06-22-07, 02:54 PM	You complain about trains when FR has airships that look like green cigars? And your campaign had this stuff way before Eberron did. ;) Hey Kid. So that Halruan "airship" does resemble a cigar to you? I wouldn't want to know what kind of stuff you are used to smoke... :P By the way, that kind of air vehicle from Halruaa is actually a medieval fantasy zeppelin. To add, this kind of "airships" (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/eb_gallery/82108.jpg) your little Eberron world has looks more like a "cigar", as you say, since it even has a circle that could be a smoke ring. :rofl:
Karsus the Mad 06-22-07, 03:37 PM	Halruaan airships aren't blimps. That's just artistic license. Halruaan airships look like regular sailing ships with large sea turtle shells attached (the Halruaans happen to use large sea turtle shells for the levitation plates).
Francius 06-22-07, 03:41 PM	Halruaan airships aren't blimps. That's just artistic license. Halruaan airships look like regular sailing ships with large sea turtle shells attached (the Halruaans happen to use large sea turtle shells for the levitation plates). That's also true, but by the way they 're depicted in 3.0-3.5, they look like zeppelins from a fantasy viewpont.
Kid SixXx 06-22-07, 04:12 PM	I was wondering when the "and now Francius will want to argue about silly stuff" part of the thread was due to start. I'm off to catch the matinee of 1408 to kill some time before the Frank Shamrock vs. Phil Baroni MMA fight on PPV tonight.
Francius 06-22-07, 04:17 PM	I was wondering when the "and now Francius will want to argue about silly stuff" part of the thread was due to start. And I was wondering till page 3 where that Kid SixXx guy - who rushes to edit his posts (dump crap changed to silly staff, eh boy?) after he realizes they are indeed "dump crap" - was. PS: At least you could salute before posting a reply. I know I did.
Kid SixXx 06-22-07, 04:18 PM	And I was wondering till page 3 where that Kid SixXx guy - who rushes to edit his posts (dump crap changed to silly staff eh boy?) after he realizes they are indeed "dump crap" - was. I was going to call a spade a spade before I decided to be diplomatic. Did I make a mistake in chosing to be respectful? Oh, and long time no viddy, Francius.
Francius 06-22-07, 04:23 PM	I was going to call a spade a spade before I decided to be diplomatic. Did I make a mistake in chosing to be respectful? You need not calling anyone anything if you receive a formal answer on their behalf. You missed the chance though, so I went on and underlined the spade calling. Oh, and long time no viddy, Francius. How's everything over your place?
Xavier_of_Cormyr 06-24-07, 11:33 PM	I could care less if 4th edition hit the shelves tomorrow. I could then proceed to buy all the "outdated" 3rd edition books at discount, and never worry about a new rule popping up in a new book, cuz there won't be any new 3rd edition books. I mean, yeah I'd send a lengthly letter full of hate & disgust for the penny pinching executives who make the calls (damn them for cancelling Dragon) but life would go on.
Renvale999 06-25-07, 10:05 AM	I really wish Eric Boyd, Rich Baker or Tom Costa would get on here and be like "HEY! No more fourth edition talk, we still got tons of plans for 3rd until 2015 or so" That would just make my day.
Xavier_of_Cormyr 06-25-07, 09:28 PM	Don't you find it strange that they have not? :shifty:
Eladrinstar 06-26-07, 01:02 AM	Um, where the hell is everyone getting the idea Eberron is the main setting now? Last time I checked, poor generic Greyhawk was the one being kicked to death by redundant sourcebooks. And another thing, if you have ever played Eberron, not read it, played it, it is actually quite tolerable. There is nothing wrong with a setting that decides to be different. Why the sparcity of lore can get annoying, it can in fact be liberating, in that you can customize the setting to your own needs. Eberron and Forgotten Realms are far to different to be compared. And, in fact, the too settings pose no threat to each other, and continue to gallop along on opposite sides of the track. Meanwhile, Dragonlance is a one-trick pony (Takhsis' evil followers are going to do a bad thing plot) and Greyhawk is a dead horse, but is still being kicked. Yay equine metaphors! :P
bitter thorn 06-26-07, 12:54 PM	Could you direct me to the source of the sales data please? Thanks! Did I say CORE? Does anybody remember using the word 'Core' at anytime in my post? If you had actually bothered to read my post, you would see I go on to explain myself. I NEVER said people who play in the Realms play 2.e , I said that people who play 2e tend to play in the Realms. Just like most of the folks using 1e rules are still playing in GH, and the people who use OD&D are still playing in Mystara. Not the other way around. There are far more people playing with 3e Forgotten Realms then 2e, and I know that. I think you are running into lingustic problems again. :rolleyes: The point I was trying to make is that with older editions, the edition you use usually determines the setting you prefer. From what I underrstand, Eberron outsells FR in most markets, so my logic still stands. People who play in 3e prefer to play in Eberron. That completely goes against a survey recently taken over at Paizo, but it matches up to WotC's sales figures. And sales figures are what matters, unfortunely, not opinions. :( Core and 'default' have similar but different meanings (as far as D&D goes). BTW - if you want to know why you are seing an FR heavy presence, just take a look around at the site your on. I know plenty that talk about the glories of Eberron non-stop, and hate FR. People here and at Paizo (and of course, CK) are heavily Realmsiocentric, so you are getting a skewed picture of the demographic. The 'kiddies' love Eberron, but 14 year olds aren't the type to go online and voice their opinions (usually). They vote with their dollars, or really, with their parent's dollars. Eberron is, unfortunatley, the next generation's setting of choice.
Karsus the Mad 06-26-07, 07:22 PM	The 'kiddies' love Eberron, but 14 year olds aren't the type to go online and voice their opinions (usually). They vote with their dollars, or really, with their parent's dollars. I resent that and find it insulting. Seemingly uneducated vocalization of one person's opinion as if it's a matter of stating fact. I doubt anyone that knows me (on these boards at least) would consider me a subpar FR fan, yet I've miraculously been able to keep an open mind about Eberron due to the simple logic that I personally haven't experienced an Eberron game. From what I have read (admittedly limited), I find I actually like Eberron. Other than the gods awful dino riding halflings....but then I also have a severe hatred of the dinos in FR....
Flicker 06-26-07, 07:57 PM	Perhaps after that atrocity, From the Ashes, was released. It didn't start out that high-level. Then they nuked the whole setting with that boxed set. :( So Shadez is right, I was talking "back in the day". And as far as Dan's post goes, thats all just part of the "more fluff, less crunch" argument. All the rules you will ever need to play is in the first three books. All setting-specific books should be at least 80% fluff, because the crunch belongs in the core books. When I want to hear more music, I don't go out and buy more MP3 players, I get more songs. Give us the music, dammit! Sorry, i'm a back in the day player and the boxed set was the best thing going, in fact if you've taken the time to read th source books published afterwards, they are in my opinion some of the best you'll ever read, especially Iuz the evil and the Marklands. Now that's a setting with punch,power and marketing appeal, and what happens, oh hello we get 3rd ed where everything set in Greyhawk again but we havn't the material to tell us about thingss???? I think the same will happen with FR, I hate the fact that we now seem to have an endless supply of prestige class high level this and that, where are all the normal character classes??? And what's with the stupid elemental races??? the realms isn't actually known as a tolerant place?? I've got no issue with advancing the timeline, heck sometimes I just want to know whats going to happen, but surprisingly I'll ignore it if i don't like it and i still reference 2nd ed stuff for the lore. My issue is what is now been pinched from FR- Take Expedition to Undermountain, lets make it a generic product with a few realms bits, lets blow up Halaster, who was always the most powerful mage in Faerun till recently. Lets face up to it, although we have the money to make it a success, were now set in our ways and spend money carefully. Eberron is successful because of little Johnny's pester power, the same thing happened to Game Workshop years ago, cool idea's ruined by money to make more money you appeal to a younger audience and 'the majority' of younger kids want steampunk,anime,cyberish stuff where they spend no time in thinking about what a character is, just how 'hard' he is? Methinks I need a pipe and slippers
XHereticX 06-26-07, 08:19 PM	I resent that and find it insulting. Seemingly uneducated vocalization of one person's opinion as if it's a matter of stating fact. I doubt anyone that knows me (on these boards at least) would consider me a subpar FR fan, yet I've miraculously been able to keep an open mind about Eberron due to the simple logic that I personally haven't experienced an Eberron game. From what I have read (admittedly limited), I find I actually like Eberron. Other than the gods awful dino riding halflings....but then I also have a severe hatred of the dinos in FR.... I agree with KtM for the most part. I'm what you would call a "kid", and I'm a Realms fan. No, I don't hate Eberron mostly because I think the setting is a pile of garbage, it does have its merits. I hate it because it has the chance of unsurping FR's position in WoTC's agenda just like it did to Dragonlance.
Francius 06-27-07, 07:04 AM	I agree with KtM for the most part. I'm what you would call a "kid", and I'm a Realms fan. No, I don't hate Eberron mostly because I think the setting is a pile of garbage, it does have its merits. I hate it because it has the chance of unsurping FR's position in WoTC's agenda just like it did to Dragonlance. The Forgotten Realms have been the #1 pick for a D&D fantasy world as early as their 5th-7th year of existence. They have co-existed and surclassed many other excellent and interesting campaign worlds over the years and not to mention they passed through the Rpg crisis of the late 90s unharmed. I 've already explained you that Eberron (nor any other future setting for that matter) cannot even dream to take the FR's place in the fantasy genre, since the amount of fanbase and supporters Abeir-Toril has (worldwide and especially in Europe) by far surpasses every other fictional fantasy world's one. Your worries are over already well-built solid structures that have passed the time test. The Realms sell more, attract more role players, are more akin to the classic high medieval fantasy ambientation everyone shows interest in and the authors/writers/designers behind them provides a rock solid base on which a fictional setting can grow, last and flourish. What more do I need to tell you to convince you? ---------------------- As for Dragonlance: Eberron came out only in 2004 and it was not a factor in Dragonlance's descend. Dragonlance had already started to somewhat fade during the late 2nd edition days:that's why TSR back then took the world to its fifth age and changed even the gaming system to the Saga Rules. It was a last stand to renew interest in it and keep the world alive. When 3.0-3.5 hit the shelves, the setting was given another shot at the RPG products by Wotc, yet it didn't draw much attention from the customers. That, however, concerns only Dragonlance's RPG products line. The world still goes strong in the fantasy novels market, testified by the fact that books still keep coming out at a regular rate and only a few days ago Wotc renewed their contract with Margaret Weis Productions for the Dragonlance franchise. And I agree too that Markus Tay tends to be somewhat exagerated, fatalistic and pessimistic (without reason) in his opinions.
Bluenose 06-27-07, 08:29 AM	The Forgotten Realms have been the #1 pick for a D&D fantasy world as early as their 5th-7th year of existence. They have co-existed and surclassed many other excellent and interesting campaign worlds over the years and not to mention they passed through the Rpg crisis of the late 90s unharmed. Passed through, yes, but unharmed? Nothing at all went through untouched. I 've already explained you that Eberron (nor any other future setting for that matter) cannot even dream to take the FR's place in the fantasy genre, since the amount of fanbase and supporters Abeir-Toril has (worldwide and especially in Europe) by far surpasses every other fictional fantasy world's one. And I'm sure that Greyhawk fans felt the same way when the Realms first came out. And when I say sure, I mean it. I was around at the time. Your worries are over already well-built solid structures that have passed the time test. The Realms sell more, attract more role players, are more akin to the classic high medieval fantasy ambientation everyone shows interest in and the authors/writers/designers behind them provides a rock solid base on which a fictional setting can grow, last and flourish. I don't disagree that the Realms will survive. It's my opinion that the Realms and Eberron aren't even in competition for the some types of player. The settings are significantly different in feel, and I think that's what Wizards intended in their setting-search. Certainly the other settings I know of that were in consideration were significantly different from what would might be considered a more conventional setting. The one point of contention I have with you is your statement that Realms products sell better than Eberron ones. While I can only speak for the local situation, I have a good relationship with the proprietors of several local game stores, and they all say that they order similar amounts of stock for both settings - and that neither usually sells as well as a product that isn't campaign specific. This may be a local thing, or a recent development in the market, but I have noticed similar trends in the notices in the stores where people look for gamers. Lots of Eberron games are starting, more in fact than than FR.
Francius 06-27-07, 09:03 AM	Passed through, yes, but unharmed? Nothing at all went through untouched. Some things did. The Forgotten Realms for example. They never lost a single step by that crisis. And I'm sure that Greyhawk fans felt the same way when the Realms first came out. And when I say sure, I mean it. I was around at the time. Only the Forgotten Realms saw after their initial realease (and still do) such a huge success like none other setting had seen before. They then went on to see a twenty year of unequaled succesful lifespan like (again) no other setting ever enjoyed. To say that they will fade or be substituded by another fantasy world is absurd and just laughable. Sure other worlds will see the day's light and will in their turn arise but they will never substitute or make the Forgotten Realms fall. They will just co-exist with it. Understand the difference? I don't disagree that the Realms will survive. It's my opinion that the Realms and Eberron aren't even in competition for the some types of player. The settings are significantly different in feel, and I think that's what Wizards intended in their setting-search. Certainly the other settings I know of that were in consideration were significantly different from what would might be considered a more conventional setting. That's what I believe too as I said in some other threads before. I 'm not saying that the two settings are in competition or that the Realms will banish Eberron to the oblivion, my contention just arises when people say that the Realms are done or that Eberron will take its place. The two settings are different and thus they can co-exist each one with its own fanbase. As simple as that. In fact I never said that just because the Realms are so succesful and popular they will necessarily disintegrate all other fantasy worlds. The one point of contention I have with you is your statement that Realms products sell better than Eberron ones. While I can only speak for the local situation, I have a good relationship with the proprietors of several local game stores, and they all say that they order similar amounts of stock for both settings - and that neither usually sells as well as a product that isn't campaign specific. This may be a local thing, or a recent development in the market, but I have noticed similar trends in the notices in the stores where people look for gamers. Lots of Eberron games are starting, more in fact than than FR. Sorry, but I disagree. I 've seen many sales stats in Amazon, E-bay and Paizo quoting that the Realms products outsell Eberron ones. Those were by links some other posters provided on other discussion boards. I 'll try to track down some and post them. I already posted on another thread some numbers clearly showing what I stated. The Realms are just selling better. I also have friends who are game stores owners (here in Italy) and by the things they tell me the situation is just what I tell you to be. Many friends of mine in abroad states of Europe (Spain, Greece, France, Belgium, England and Germany) with whom I chat time to time tell me the same thing: Eberron fares poorly in their markets and role-players are more tied to the Forgotten Realms world. I do not know what the situation is in the U.S market so I can't tell you what's happening overseas. At least I can speak about where I live. It's not something I came up with. It's information people provide me.
Alediran 06-27-07, 09:14 AM	Europe must be a special case, because in Argentina what is played is(in order of importance): bad two-dimensional homebrews (lazy DMs who only read the 3 main books), Eberron (because it's "cool" and "I don't have to read 123245456457567 books), Dragonlance (yes, there are more DL masters) and only after that FR (I know most FR players of Buenos Aires and I can count them with the fingers of my hands)
XHereticX 06-27-07, 09:20 AM	Europe must be a special case, because in Argentina what is played is(in order of importance): bad two-dimensional homebrews (lazy DMs who only read the 3 main books), Eberron (because it's "cool" and "I don't have to read 123245456457567 books), Dragonlance (yes, there are more DL masters) and only after that FR (I know most FR players of Buenos Aires and I can count them with the fingers of my hands) Oh, lo siento senor.:(
Francius 06-27-07, 09:24 AM	Europe must be a special case, because in Argentina what is played is(in order of importance): bad two-dimensional homebrews (lazy DMs who only read the 3 main books), Eberron (because it's "cool" and "I don't have to read 123245456457567 books), Dragonlance (yes, there are more DL masters) and only after that FR (I know most FR players of Buenos Aires and I can count them with the fingers of my hands) Then Argentina must be a special case. Eberron is only been out for three years. Is it possible that role players over there already gave up classical medieval high fantasy (which the FR and other settings are) for a small cyber punk/ pulp noir world? I am not saying that Eberron can't have reached success in a short time but I would be curious to know for how many years (1st and 2nd edition) role players have been playing D&D in Argentina that they have already placed as top favourite (even above Dragonlance as you say) a 3 year world giving up everything else. Seems exagerated to me.
Alediran 06-27-07, 10:37 AM	Then Argentina must be a special case. Eberron is only been out for three years. Is it possible that role players over there already gave up classical medieval high fantasy (which the FR and other settings are) for a small cyber punk/ pulp noir world? I am not saying that Eberron can't have reached success in a short time but I would be curious to know for how many years (1st and 2nd edition) role players have been playing D&D in Argentina that they have already placed as top favourite (even above Dragonlance as you say) a 3 year world giving up everything else. Seems exagerated to me. I know players in Argentina (for a backwater country, there are very experienced RP players who have more than a decade of gaming) who played and still play 2nd edition (I even played one Ravenloft session in old 2nd) and they where usually creating their worlds (like I said, lazy DMs). But to give a better picture of the whole issue, in argentina the most played game is the WoD line, and most of them are grognards who can't accept that D&D is not only a role play game, but also the FIRST and without D&D they would never play WoD, and label it as "muerte-machaca" (the expresion means that they consider D&D a system to play battlegames and make dungeon-crawls without story or reason), they take to the extreme GD's opinion that a good RP session is one where no dice are rolled (something true about Argentinians is that they always have at least one side of extreme grognardess in them, is a big cause of the problems this country has). I've heard more than one person label FR as the dump setting where everything that WotC "steals" is put (an ignorant opinion of an ignorant person who is a Legend of the Five Rings grognard who belived the 3ed OA is part of the Realms, something we know is totally untrue, because Kara-Tur is not Rokugan) without actually knowing the setting. And in the bigesst board dedicated to RP games the D&D section consists most of all of rules discussion and homebrew ideas, the few FR questions some members do are almost usually answered by me (its a sad thing to say but I'm the Big FR Loremaster in Argentina), after that a horde of ignorants mades ignorant responses wich I have to debunk or the OP gets a false response that could make him hate FR. And proof of all this is that probably I'm the only Argentinian in the FR forum (with the exception of my brother, of course). But my crusade isn't a complete lost cause, I've managed to show one or two people how wrong most RP gamers are about D&D and the realms (one of them even was able to be cured of a psychological problem that make him unable to concentrate and study because he started to read more books).
XHereticX 06-27-07, 10:42 AM	Not suprising some people feel that way. FR has been regarded by many as WoTC's "canned setting" that is just stuffed with mismatched crap which don't even fit together. People have a similar problem with FR novels, which rarely get noticable credentials and reviews in the literature community because they have the WoTC and D&D labels pasted on them.
Alediran 06-27-07, 10:54 AM	Not suprising some people feel that way. FR has been regarded by many as WoTC's "canned setting" that is just stuffed with mismatched crap which don't even fit together. When it wasn't WotC fault but TSR that made the bad plugs of areas outside Faerūn. WotC decision of not suporting those bad developed areas was a good one (even if Faerūn itself hasn't much support)
Faraer 06-27-07, 11:21 AM	That's interesting about the Argentinian RPG scene.I know players in Argentina (for a backwater country, there are very experienced RP players who have more than a decade of gaming) who played and still play 2nd edition . . .Lots of people play 1st and 2nd-edition AD&D all over the world.. . . after that a horde of ignorants mades ignorant responses wich I have to debunk . . .Ah . . .And proof of all this is that probably I'm the only Argentinian in the FR forum (with the exception of my brother, of course).You mean here? Presumably most don't have such good English as you.This may be a local thing, or a recent development in the market, but I have noticed similar trends in the notices in the stores where people look for gamers.Of course, it's extremely difficult for anyone to be sure about what's popular across a whole country, and we should be cautious about overgeneralizing from local information. I've read many threads where people confidently and not without evidence put forward opposite conclusions.
Eladrinstar 06-27-07, 01:25 PM	and they where usually creating their worlds (like I said, lazy DMs). That comment was uncalled for. Someone making his own world instead shelfing out the money to buy a bunch of books is not lazy. If someone is devoting her time and work to creating their own setting they should not be called lazy. It's not exactly easy you know. I have been working on my own campaign setting since the day I bought the core rulebooks. That was six years ago.
Alediran 06-27-07, 01:41 PM	That comment was uncalled for. Someone making his own world instead shelfing out the money to buy a bunch of books is not lazy. If someone is devoting her time and work to creating their own setting they should not be called lazy. It's not exactly easy you know. I have been working on my own campaign setting since the day I bought the core rulebooks. That was six years ago. I'm not refering to that because in this country if you want something an it's too expensive to get in the legal way then can get them in the illegal way at almost no price (proof of this is the huge amounts of downloaded books for many RP games and settings, wich they print in their homes to play games). They only read the 3 core books and most D&D DMs I played with went crazy when I made some simple magic combos with my characters that obliterated their BBEG in mere seconds (puting in evidence that they didn't even bother to read what magic can do). Homebrews in this country aren't works of love, they are made by the DM on the run to give him absolute control of what happens in the campaign. Also, most D&D DMs in my country compete to see who can be the fastest TPK DM. Until I started my own campaign I was never satisfied with Argentinian D&D DMs (who are to be blamed by the bad opinion the game has with more serious RPers). And I'm also making my own homebrew, I know not all hombrews are bad but most are made by lazy DMs who don't want to study or who want absolute control over what happens instead of fighting with players who know the setting (argentinians hate when somebody else remarks their failures. I argued with a DM that overpriced a longbow and his response was that he was right and didn't care what one book said, after that he made my character's life a living hell, while he rewarded the character who played like he wanted).
Alediran 06-27-07, 01:47 PM	That's interesting about the Argentinian RPG scene.Lots of people play 1st and 2nd-edition AD&D all over the world. Yes, I know they do, but here is pretty common yet. You mean here? Presumably most don't have such good English as you.. I know at least eight argentinian D&Ders who post in this boards, two on CharOp and the rest on the general D&D forum, I'm the only one who posts here (my brother also post here once or twice but he hasn't played yet because where I lived there are no RPers).
msatran 06-27-07, 02:04 PM	That's because the FR novels are crap. They are. There's no two ways around it. There's a word limit. They're pulpy, the writers are basically people who are told how the book is going to end and how to get there. (Though Elaine and R.A. Salvatore have earned the privelage of not having to tell people.) And even worse, I would prefer that these things just be made as big fat modules. That's right. You heard me. I would rather have my players have a chance to deal with these events rather than have them dictated to me. Reclaiming Myth Drannor? That was the last FR campaign I was ever going to run when I was in my seventies, and NOW that's been taken away from me by Richard Baker and his rogue cheddar novels of doom. Khannyr Vhok? Another major adversary by virtue of PC location, only this one is likely to **** off players twice as much, because it's most likely that he will die ON ANOTHER PLANE! Why create huge adversaries if PC's aren't going to be given a chance to deal with them? From now on, when they publish these sourcebooks, a little parenthetical "N" should be placed next to these people if there's going to be a novel. That way, those of us who DM this world don't have to feel like *******s and rewrite half our games in mid stream because someone wrote a book.
Eladrinstar 06-27-07, 02:09 PM	I'm not refering to that because in this country if you want something an it's too expensive to get in the legal way then can get them in the illegal way at almost no price (proof of this is the huge amounts of downloaded books for many RP games and settings, wich they print in their homes to play games). They only read the 3 core books and most D&D DMs I played with went crazy when I made some simple magic combos with my characters that obliterated their BBEG in mere seconds (puting in evidence that they didn't even bother to read what magic can do). Homebrews in this country aren't works of love, they are made by the DM on the run to give him absolute control of what happens in the campaign. Also, most D&D DMs in my country compete to see who can be the fastest TPK DM. Until I started my own campaign I was never satisfied with Argentinian D&D DMs (who are to be blamed by the bad opinion the game has with more serious RPers). And I'm also making my own homebrew, I know not all hombrews are bad but most are made by lazy DMs who don't want to study or who want absolute control over what happens instead of fighting with players who know the setting (argentinians hate when somebody else remarks their failures. I argued with a DM that overpriced a longbow and his response was that he was right and didn't care what one book said, after that he made my character's life a living hell, while he rewarded the character who played like he wanted). Wow. The situation is really bad there. The Order of the Stick website forums has some play by post games, that forum is pretty active. It's not the same, but at least they know D&D is not about winning or competing.
Eladrinstar 06-27-07, 02:15 PM	Sorry double post.
Alediran 06-27-07, 03:39 PM	Wow. The situation is really bad there. The Order of the Stick website forums has some play by post games, that forum is pretty active. It's not the same, but at least they know D&D is not about winning or competing. Yes, I'm considered an outsider in most argentinian RP circles because I don't follow their likes and rules. Wich is good, because I like to be one :D, it tells me I'm different from them. That is why they preffer to play WoD (especialy Vampire) because they feel they can be as selfish as they want without being stoped by the DM (who are famous by their rail-road plots where the players almost always fail at the end) @msatran, my current campaign has Chapter 4 deal with the Elven Crusade. I made a superb work to tie the events of The Last Mythal with my story, and the crusade allows me to concentrate less in how the players reunite the forces needed to retake Myth Drannor and more on what they will be doing during that time (one of the players will be secretly wielding the Warblade found in Maerymidra and he will not reveal it until the time is right, while Alediran will follow the leads he got about the Artblade's location and retrive it, becoming the new Spell-Major among other things). That a Coronal is an NPC only helps a DM, the Artblade and Warblade (because the positions they give) are still acceptable for players, but not the Crownblade
MarkusTay63 06-27-07, 06:07 PM	@msatran - although I would disagree that not all FR novels are crap, I would have to concur that quite a few are. I read one - just ONE - Harpers novel, and the bile still rises in my throat when I think about it (and that was ten years ago!) I can't even bring myself to pick-up another. :nonono: I would also TOTALLY agree that authors really need to find their OWN plothooks. Quite a few do, but the 'big guns' seem to enjoy taking most of the mystery out of the setting of late. If something is given to us as a hook in a soucrebook, then it should be left alone, at least for several years, and only be touched upon by future sourcebooks. I didn't pay good money for the FRCS, just to thumb through it and realize half those guys are dead or have 'moved on'. Maybe if they had to reimburse us for everything they have 'taken back', they wouldn't be so quick to use them. It just amazes me that there are huge sections of the world where people WANT to know more, and would embrace any sort of treatment for those regions, even novels, yet they go mostly ignored. What about an entire series set in Mulhorand? How about some books set in the past, the way Elaine's wonderful E:IoE mostly was. A Crown Wars series, or something about the creator races, or even stuff set in Maztica, Kara-Tur, the Wastes, Zakhara, the Utter East, etc... There is just SO MUCh we want to know about, and instead they use up OUR plothooks! In the words of Seinfeld... "Whats with that?" :confused:
Xavier_of_Cormyr 06-28-07, 05:13 PM	I grew up on the D&D "basic set", mastered the game with Greyhawk, and made the "let's try this Forgotten Realms setting for a change" way back in 1994. I now play only FR, but still have a love for the "old settings". As far as Ebberon, I have nothing against it, and IMO, it poses no threat whatsoever to FR. Would I play it, sure. I'd try it just to form an opinion, although to me it seems a little "final fantasy" with the airships, dragon shards, apocalyptic war, etc.
Francius 06-28-07, 05:27 PM	That's because the FR novels are crap. They are. There's no two ways around it. That's just your sole opinion. With which I dead absolutely disagree. Know that the Forgotten Realms novels authors roster is comprised by some of the best in the fantasy fiction genre. We have professionals creating stories for the Realms that fans of other fantasy worlds would sell their houses to get them sign a contract and start writing for their own ones. I 've read a whole bunch of books for various fictional settings during the many years I 've been involved in the fantasy hobby, and the Realms novels are still the highest ones up in my list alongside the Dragonlance series. I 'd go as far as to say that some of them can easily match the quality of some all time classics like "Elric", "Conan", "LotR", "Decameron", "Beowulf", "Shannara" and so many more. It's only natural. The Realms novels are one of the most important pieces of the FR's engineering build, and if I (or every other fan of the Realms in general) didn't like them, I 'd have given up playing in the specific world. The Forgotten Realms novels are one of the reasons that Abeir-Toril draw my attention in the first place and still are the mean by which I introduce so many new players to the setting. They are generally acclaimed, famous, well-perceived and they sell like hot-cakes. I know that every time a new Forgotten Realms novel hits the store in Italy, it needs to be reprinted in new stock in a time span of weeks. If you don't like them, do not generalize and be sure to put the line "in my opinion" before you start such a sentence. I 'd also be very interested in what kind of fantasy books do *you* regard as a "good" read. There's a word limit. They're pulpy, the writers are basically people who are told how the book is going to end and how to get there. (Though Elaine and R.A. Salvatore have earned the privelage of not having to tell people.) Seems to me you've read only a few of the Forgotten Realms novels. What word limit are you talking about? Books are written by the page. Some are longer, some are shorter. What's the problem? Every novel has to follow at least a general baking structure by the head designers' team. Every book in a larger series of ones follows this road of design. Heck, even comic books, videogames, magazines, toys...everything follows this pattern. The designers do have to take as a primary consideration their employers' decision. If each one single writer started doing whatever he best pleased in his story, the saga of the world would be led to complete chaos and total pandemonium. Couldn't you guess? And even worse, I would prefer that these things just be made as big fat modules. The vast majority of players here actually complain about the printing of adventure modules and want more lore and sourcebooks about their world. Some of the most famous novels however did find their way into adventure modules in 2nd edition. (Avatar Trilogy, Empires Trilogy, Azure Bonds, the aftermatch of the death of the dragon - to name a few.) That's right. You heard me. I would rather have my players have a chance to deal with these events rather than have them dictated to me. Then have them. Even if the events have already been written in novels, none forces you NOT to run them by yourselves. Do you have any idea about how many DMs have shaped their adventures after a novel they 've read? Just use your brain and some of your immagination. If you've ever experienced DMing a game, I don't think you 'll have such a hard time in designing one. Reclaiming Myth Drannor? That was the last FR campaign I was ever going to run when I was in my seventies, and NOW that's been taken away from me by Richard Baker and his rogue cheddar novels of doom....Khannyr Vhok? Another major adversary by virtue of PC location, only this one is likely to **** off players twice as much, because it's most likely that he will die ON ANOTHER PLANE! Who says you can't still run with that idea of yours (Reclaiming Myth Drannor) albeit the pubblication of R.Baker's books? Big bad meanie Richard stole your idea? Well guess what: The retaking of Myth Drannor is how our previous Realms campaing story ended. And that was seven years ago ( you bet before the books were pubblished). So what? It simply shows like the freeing of the Myth Drannor ruins has been in the plans, dreams and minds of many Realms players/designers/authors. You were not the only one to think about it. Does this mean you can't run it as a long-term campaign objective anymore? Nine hells NO! Why create huge adversaries if PC's aren't going to be given a chance to deal with them? Have your PCs face that adversary no matter what. You are not bound with handcuffs to follow blindly the events described in the novels. Do not feel suffocated by them. Novels are a good source of ideas. Just that. They are not there to smack out your campaing or to force you to change the things you choose to present with your players. If you want (or not) to run the adventure you 've just read in a certain book, then by all means do it. Do not feel like someone spoiled your fun or stole the idea you had in your mind. Do not feel forced by *any* canon. Not blindely if the least. Shape your own campaign and ultimately the world the way you like. Make your Realms unique if you do not agree with how the main events folded out in the official novels. It's the first line of advise once you open the very same campaign setting book. Shoosh. I better stop now before I start cursing at the screen. From now on, when they publish these sourcebooks, a little parenthetical "N" should be placed next to these people if there's going to be a novel. That way, those of us who DM this world don't have to feel like *******s and rewrite half our games in mid stream because someone wrote a book. Only you feel like this when it comes to this issue my friend. You bet it's not seconded by many. So speak only about yourself.
XHereticX 06-28-07, 07:00 PM	That's because the FR novels are crap. They are. There's no two ways around it. There's a word limit. They're pulpy, the writers are basically people who are told how the book is going to end and how to get there. (Though Elaine and R.A. Salvatore have earned the privelage of not having to tell people.) And even worse, I would prefer that these things just be made as big fat modules. That's right. You heard me. I would rather have my players have a chance to deal with these events rather than have them dictated to me. Reclaiming Myth Drannor? That was the last FR campaign I was ever going to run when I was in my seventies, and NOW that's been taken away from me by Richard Baker and his rogue cheddar novels of doom. Khannyr Vhok? Another major adversary by virtue of PC location, only this one is likely to **** off players twice as much, because it's most likely that he will die ON ANOTHER PLANE! Why create huge adversaries if PC's aren't going to be given a chance to deal with them? From now on, when they publish these sourcebooks, a little parenthetical "N" should be placed next to these people if there's going to be a novel. That way, those of us who DM this world don't have to feel like *******s and rewrite half our games in mid stream because someone wrote a book. Gaa, I was just rereading LEoF when I remembered I was going to do a Myth Drannor reclaimation campaign too, but since I read the Last Mythal Trilogy its no longer going to be much fun anymore since the book used up a lot of my ideas:( Well, at least my players don't know crap about Myth Drannor or the Realms beyond Drizzt so they will still enjoy it.
Francius 06-28-07, 07:23 PM	Gaa, I was just rereading LEoF when I remembered I was going to do a Myth Drannor reclaimation campaign too, but since I read the Last Mythal Trilogy its no longer going to be much fun anymore since the book used up a lot of my ideas. Yeah, still it didn't erase your original ones so you can still run the campaign you had in mind no matter what the book said. :cheer: :cheer: :cheer:
Mr_Miscellany 06-28-07, 09:26 PM	Reclaiming Myth Drannor? That was the last FR campaign I was ever going to run when I was in my seventies, and NOW that's been taken away from me by Richard Baker and his rogue cheddar novels of doom. Hrm.....the players in my game are reclaiming Myth Drannor right now. How, exactly, did your opportunity to run this sort of campaign get taken away by Baker's novel? Whatever it was, it certainly didn't effect my campaign. Could it be that your creating a problem where there is in fact no problem? ;)
msatran 06-29-07, 02:51 AM	Because by the time I get around to running it, it will have been done by Araevin and all of those other people. When you have about 15-20 groups of PC's in the same world that coexist with all of these NPCs, you have to walk a huge tightrope. You're assuming that it's a single campaign and that nothing exists outside it, but my game has never worked like that. The PC's are numerous, and their exploits legendary. I didn't REALLY start having problems until Farthest Reach and other recent novels that started CRITICALLY affecting campaigns that were ALREADY in midstream. One of my players was ready to THROTTLE me over the whole Sarya Dlardrageth business. We collectively had something different in mind. Yes, this stuff is easy to ignore, but ONLY at the expense of the Forgotten Realms itself and acquiring new material. It's not as easy to say "Well, I'm not using this detail" and making a comprehensive list when you've got that many semi-active PC's. Plus, I'm probably the only guy out there with this many active players buying them all copies of the sourcebooks I want them to have. I'll probably never get to run this big trilogy of modules they're running this year, because realistically, after 20 years of play, the high level PC's in my game would blink, look at Shadowdale, and then say "WTF? NO! You will DIE. This will take five rounds." I mean, granted, I can change the barrier to become a "Shield vs. Epic" instead of a "Shield vs. Chosen" but that's hardly fair.
Mr_Miscellany 06-30-07, 02:26 AM	Because by the time I get around to running it, it will have been done by Araevin and all of those other people. I can't see how this is possible, unless you as DM elect to have it happen. I also don't see how deciding what recent novel events will or won't happen in some way effects aquisition of source material for play, either, since there are no published adventures that tie in to Araevin's exploits. While your campaign style is unorthadox (I can't imagine running one campaign world with that many players in it), I don't think it's impossible to keep track of what makes your game unique vs. what's printed in some novel. Realms DMs with long-running games do it all the time. FWIW the high level (Epic) PCs in my campaign will experience the Shadowdale module, just as they're about to play through CTotW (is that the right abbreviation?).... I dunno, I just think it's not all that bad for us as DMs. :)
Soltares 06-30-07, 05:08 PM	The only time the novels mangled my enjoyment is when new rules and editions would come out, and characters I was still using who had died in some novel were not converted to the new rules system. Otherwise, I just ignored them completely. No Moonblades. None of those all powerful shapeshifters that can pop in from another dimension at any time and kill anyone. No 4th level novice Spellfire wielders blasting dracoliches out of the sky by the handful. Mystra does not do stripteases for Elminster. But once 3.0 came out and the various characters / priesthoods / gods messed up by the Time of Troubles novels remained messed up (or absent altogether!), I found that the novels were actually preventing me from even *getting* game content. The novels could never prevent me from *using* game content, no matter who they said was dead or changed or whatever, but if, as a result of some novel, they weren't even going to *design* said content any longer, then it was no longer a Realms for *me,* it was a Realms that was railroaded along a metaplot that had no room for my chronicle, as nothing would be written that did not go along with *their* metaplot. It was 'their way or the highway.' And so I'm still on that highway, as the metaplot of Time of Troubles pushed me out by changing the *rules.* I'm not 100% sold on Eberron. I'm not 100% sold on Greyhawk. I've got *thousands* of dollars worth of 2nd ed Realms product, including the first dozen or so numbered novels, and a bunch of Drizz't novels, which I like to read (and like, *one* Greyhawk book from 2nd (Greyhawk Adventures) and *one* Greyhawk book from 3.0 (the LGG), but because I said something nice about Greyhawk once, I've been tarred and feathered as a Greyhawk fanboi for years). I didn't go anywhere, I'm still here, wondering if they'll ever get back to writing the stuff I was using, rather than killing everyone off / smashing down cities / etc. as part of sensationalistic 'events.' Change is cool, when it's organic to the developing plotline, and not, 'Zhentil Keep gets blown up for the third consecutive year, to establish how badass this new character you've never heard of, and never will see again, is' or 'Menzoberranzan goes into civil war, *again,* after surviving for centuries, because something unimaginable happened, it's summer, and Bob Salvatore's new novel is out! Stay tuned for something *even more shocking* next year (that will be equally outdone the next summer, and the summer after that, and the summer after that...).' It's kinda turning into comic books. Ooh, shocker, this issue, someone is hurt! Ooh, shocker, this issue, some supporting character dies! Ooh, shocker, a *member of the team dies!* Ooh, shocker, 10,000 Genoshan mutants die a fiery death! Ooh, shocker, eleventy-billion asparagus people die as their planet explodes! Ooh, shocker, *everybody dies, turns into zombies and begins eating each other!* Ooh, shocker, comics sales at lowest point in 25 years and people are crying 'print is dead.' Oh wait, that last one wasn't a shocker, it's like the exact opposite of shock. After the dozenth time, the incrementally over-the-top OMG!!! sensationalistic 'shake-ups' neither 'shake' me nor get me 'up.'
RedGlacier 06-30-07, 09:33 PM	I'm not worried too much about FR's future. To quote Ed himself (Dragon 335, p.37): ''Under the original Realms agreement, there are conditions under which the Realms ''reverts'' to me, so I doubt the current copyright holders will let those conditions happen.'' Given how much ed is involved with fans of the setting (see his replies at Candlekeep) and his wondrous ability to turn everything he touches to gold--he turned a city you normally wouldn't give second thoughts to (Crimmor, a city in Amn that caters to caravan traffic), into a vivid little jewel in Dragon #334--, I doubt an hypothetical dropping off of the Realms by WTC would mortally wound the setting. About Eberron: it's not D&D's official setting. It's more like its mascot (which WotC keeps shoving in our faces). I like the setting anyway; I just don't love it like I do the Forgotten Realms(go Realms! :cheer:). As for 4e( :yuck: ), let's hope it's many, many years away.
AlorinDawn 07-01-07, 07:19 PM	Hamm. We can only hope that if a 4th edition hits WotC will let a year go by and not produce any FR material and let the ownership of the Realms revert to Ed. As much as I know WotC tries, they just don't "get it" with Realms material. Maybe if the Grand History sells well WotC will understand we want sourcebooks filled with details and , not 1/2 adventure modules and 1/2 source books with more crunch and less fluff. Give me a new Volo's Guide or a new Aurora's Catalog with attention to detail and no new Prcs and worthless feats no one is likely to ever use. WotC, if you are going to give us blended super modules/sourcebooks, give us the entire, original Haunted Halls of Eveningstar! or a DEFINITVE guide to Cormyr.
XHereticX 07-02-07, 07:55 AM	Hamm. We can only hope that if a 4th edition hits WotC will let a year go by and not produce any FR material and let the ownership of the Realms revert to Ed. As much as I know WotC tries, they just don't "get it" with Realms material. Maybe if the Grand History sells well WotC will understand we want sourcebooks filled with details and , not 1/2 adventure modules and 1/2 source books with more crunch and less fluff. Give me a new Volo's Guide or a new Aurora's Catalog with attention to detail and no new Prcs and worthless feats no one is likely to ever use. WotC, if you are going to give us blended super modules/sourcebooks, give us the entire, original Haunted Halls of Eveningstar! or a DEFINITVE guide to Cormyr. well, DL certainly got better when it was sold to MWP, so FR should work the same way. Yeah, more fluff, I agree.
Zémobiel 07-02-07, 09:18 AM	Well by the way does the 4th edition have been anonced? that would be really bad news if you ask me
hawkinsthedm 07-02-07, 02:00 PM	Well by the way does the 4th edition have been anonced? that would be really bad news if you ask me No, 4th Ed has not been announced. It is something people just like to throw out there and cause a stir. On the note of the novels: I consider my campaigns to be an alternate timeline, separate from the novels. I consider everything up to 1372 DR to be relevant because I did not start RPing in the Realms until 3rd Ed (because in HS my parents thought D&D was evil, and so I didn't get the opportunity to start dabbling in it until college). BTW, are you saying that the Last Mythal books sucked? Damn! I haven't gotten to read them yet so I was hoping they were good. The fey'ri seem to be a cool villian race. Authors I consider the best in the Realms (in no particular order): Salvatore, Kemp, Cunningham, Greenwood, Denning (who also writes kick *$& novels in Star Wars), and Niles. I also really enjoy Golden's short stories about Jandar Sunstar and Vampire of the Mists (which is a Ravenloft novel with the Forgotten Realms character).
MarkusTay63 07-02-07, 02:21 PM	RAS killed Chewbaca, and for that he must pay... :hoppingma Realms novels are only as good as we think they are because we love Realms lore. To me, novels like E:IotE and El in Hell are perfect examples of excellent Realms novels; not because the stories are good or the writing is over-the-top, but because they give us little 'glimpses' into the Realms past. I haven't read The Last Mythal because I'm Elfophobic, but if its anything like the last two I mentioned then they are on my must-have list. Also, I ignore the lore in Realms novels IMG, because there is a wealth of other people and places to explore without ever touching on the stuff in novels. I hated Shade, but its in my game - the players just never ever get to inter-act with it. My game even takes place 20 years into the future, but that still never trips me up because I don't grab the obvious plothooks (like authors do). Khelben was a bit of a problem, but then I remembered the REAL Khelben Blackstaff lives in Greyhawk. :D The Halaster thing was the first time I truly thought about ignoring established lore (it doesn't have the FR logo on it), but then I thought "Hey, in 20 years not only could he have easily made a comeback, but he could be even MORE powerful". In fact, that could have been his plan all along... :devil: Well by the way does the 4th edition have been anonced? that would be really bad news if you ask meNo, but everyone keeps talking about it, maybe the je... bean counters at WotC will think we want one, and then force it down our throats! I reiterate - There is very little wrong with the rules at this point, and what little there is is easily fixable by tweaking, 3rd party, or maybe even a '3.6' upgrade. Another entire edition is ludicrous, because the rules are finally excellent (I still have nightmares about a giant Thaco chasing me through the woods).
Zémobiel 07-02-07, 02:29 PM	Yeah i had a hard time pass from the secound to the third, but i have fastly realised how much better it was, how it was more easy to handle. And i will not play old 2nd edition for all gold on earth (euh yes i will play it for that in fact lol, but you get the point) 3 and 3.5 are easier to handle more complate and permit a lot more of freedom and we have a easier way to calculate our progression. But a 4edition would be a Nightmare. The lots of book we got and the past few years is astronamous, if it get all out of date cause of a second edition that would be a uge setback on our money
sithar 07-03-07, 05:29 PM	Okay realmers how will FR survive 4ed? How can it when almost all important regions have been covered? How do you sell a book that was published previously in 3ed? If I was a market manager i'd ask these questions. I just don't see it as marketable as it has been in the past. There's going to be a 4th edition :eek: ? Would someone point me to some information about this 4th edition of dungeons and dragons? P.S. sorry I'm a newbie :embarrass
hawkinsthedm 07-03-07, 07:03 PM	There's going to be a 4th edition :eek: ? No, there is no 4th Edition announced. For some reason people have to keep hypothesizing about it. I think there are more relevant things to do with their time...but hell! Who the hell am I anyways?
Eladrinstar 07-03-07, 07:40 PM	RAS killed Chewbaca, and for that he must pay... :hoppingma You are incorrect. He was told to kill Chewbacca, it was not his idea. And it was unrealistic that all the main characters should've survived death for so long. On topic: This whole thread is ridiculous. FR will survive 4e. People may cite the fact that Greyhawk didn't survive 3e, but Greyhawk was dying anyway, because there was very little that was original or interesting about it. I've fallen asleep reading the Gazetter. However, FR has never made me fall asleep, not even the Cleric Quintet.
Francius 07-07-07, 09:38 AM	On topic: This whole thread is ridiculous. FR will survive 4e. People may cite the fact that Greyhawk didn't survive 3e, but Greyhawk was dying anyway, because there was very little that was original or interesting about it. I've fallen asleep reading the Gazetter. However, FR has never made me fall asleep, not even the Cleric Quintet. To add, the number of novels, sourcebooks, campaign expansions and products in general that the Forgotten Realms have in their roster, Greyhawk could not match even in its highest days of glory. It's absurd and stupid to think that a world so grand, huge, detailed, with so many printed products, fans and authors/designers/writers such as the Forgotten Realms will fade away - more so when *just* a new edition of D&D comes out. :rolleyes: I think that the Realms can become like another Middle-Earth: They will last forever.
sw04ca 07-12-07, 08:28 PM	Perhaps after that atrocity, From the Ashes, was released. It didn't start out that high-level. Then they nuked the whole setting with that boxed set. :( From the Ashes wasn't bad. There were lots of opportunities for adventure, what with Aerdy being a hundred warring states, the insidious Scarlet Brotherhood being all over the free world, and of course the new SuperIuz. And there were always adventures in the west.
sw04ca 07-12-07, 08:31 PM	And it was unrealistic that all the main characters should've survived death for so long. It was unrealistic that they succesfully attacked the Death Star.:rofl:
Micheal_Roele 07-16-07, 03:36 PM	To add, the number of novels, sourcebooks, campaign expansions and products in general that the Forgotten Realms have in their roster, Greyhawk could not match even in its highest days of glory. It's absurd and stupid to think that a world so grand, huge, detailed, with so many printed products, fans and authors/designers/writers such as the Forgotten Realms will fade away - more so when *just* a new edition of D&D comes out. :rolleyes: I think that the Realms can become like another Middle-Earth: They will last forever. Lets not get delusional. I know you are a big fan of the Realms, but that is over the top. The Realms Novels will never be in the literary league of Tolkien. They aren't even close to the sucess of the very sucessful Dragonlance Novels, which aren't even close to Tolkien. If anything the Harry Potter novels will have a more enduring legacy one day, as they will appeal to children and adults over time, and across generations. The Realms Novels and RPG settings are different creatures. The Realms will always endure with D&D players, but the novels don't have the mainstream appeal other works have achieved. Salvatore is about the closest one to achieve this. The Realms have had a good long run, but don't assume they are eternal. Novels are great, but if not done properly can help crush a setting. Ask the few Dark Sun fans left about the impact bad Novels have had on their setting. Noone likes to shell out money for a sourcebook where half the villians you could use are dead in the setting by the next year because of Novels. Of course a DM can do anything they want, but it is irksome, because eventually another suplement will come out and canonize what was written in that novel. I know players who still haven't gotten over the Time of Troubles, even after all these years. Don't assume the Realms are going to last forever. Planescape, Ravenloft, Birthright, Dark Sun, Spelljammer, and Mystara fans will all tell you enjoy the ride while it lasts, because you never know when it ends. Greyhawk is the default setting, but has been in decline for years. I love 3.5 edition as a mechanic, but don't get me wrong, the flavor of the 1st Edition Forgotten Realms way outstrips what exists now. Don't assume the Realms won't join the graveyard list above one day. So enjoy it while it lasts.
Micheal_Roele 07-16-07, 03:58 PM	And it was unrealistic that all the main characters should've survived death for so long. GI Joe survived Cobra-La, which seemed to be the inspiration Yugong-Vongs (mispelled on purpose.) I agree RAS was in a box on that one. He was in an impossible spot. Thank Lolth he will always be known for the Driz'zt Novels. Its hard to write a glorious death for Chewbacca at the hands of those clowns. I was waiting for them to whip out the "Cobra-LALALALALALA" battle cry. Can you honestly say with a straight face the Yugong-Vongs were a serious literary villian? Mr. Spacely of the Jetsons inspires more fear and dread than the Yugong-Vongs. RAS should have just had a cameo from Entreri, who would have given Chewbacca an honorable death. When they first introduced the Shades, I had my reservations, and one of the first things I worried about was they were the new Yugong-Vongs. When they start introducing the "world-invading races" who don't follow the laws of force, magic, or reality, you know there is trouble.
Faraer 07-16-07, 04:02 PM	The Realms Novels . . . aren't even close to the sucess of the very sucessful Dragonlance Novels . . .Really?Planescape, Ravenloft, Birthright, Dark Sun, Spelljammer, and Mystara fans will all tell you enjoy the ride while it lasts, because you never know when it ends.Those settings were contrived for the purpose of game products. The Realms is independent of its novels and sourcebooks, and one way or another Ed will keep writing about it until, perhaps, he dies. Especially since the Realms legally revert to him if Wizards ever stops publishing his work.Don't assume the Realms won't join the graveyard list above one day.I don't think that metaphor is at all apt. Imaginary worlds are not 'dead' just because they don't have continuing product lines.
Eladrinstar 07-16-07, 04:44 PM	GI Joe survived Cobra-La, which seemed to be the inspiration Yugong-Vongs (mispelled on purpose.) I agree RAS was in a box on that one. He was in an impossible spot. Thank Lolth he will always be known for the Driz'zt Novels. Its hard to write a glorious death for Chewbacca at the hands of those clowns. I was waiting for them to whip out the "Cobra-LALALALALALA" battle cry. Can you honestly say with a straight face the Yugong-Vongs were a serious literary villian? Mr. Spacely of the Jetsons inspires more fear and dread than the Yugong-Vongs. RAS should have just had a cameo from Entreri, who would have given Chewbacca an honorable death. When they first introduced the Shades, I had my reservations, and one of the first things I worried about was they were the new Yugong-Vongs. When they start introducing the "world-invading races" who don't follow the laws of force, magic, or reality, you know there is trouble. Yuzhaan Vong, actually. But yeah, I agree.
MarkusTay63 07-16-07, 05:23 PM	Wasn't Yuzhaan Vong a short-lived Tibetan rock group from the seventies? :P Actually, the Shades done as Sith Lords would of been kinda cool, instead of more Shadowcrap. Then again, a Jhaamdathan City returning would be more appropriate for Sith Lords. :D
Soltares 07-17-07, 11:32 AM	Imaginary worlds are not 'dead' just because they don't have continuing product lines. Middle-Earth survived decades without new product coming out (other than reprints), and, oh look, it's back! Same for Star Wars, Star Trek, etc. The franchises go on, and new product shows up, in some cases long after the original author has passed on. The Realms will go on as well. It's got enough 'weight' built up to endure at this point.
Yemaj 07-17-07, 12:59 PM	This thread has been loads of fun. My eyes have almost rolled right out of my head... LOL I think the funniest thing is that people are clamoring for more fluff and then complain about the modules messing up their time lines. The other funny thing is that people are complaining that anything is messing up their time lines/campaigns. Hell I wouldn't care if all of my players read the Mythal series before we went in the direction of reclaiming Myth Drannor. If anything it would let them better role play the situation. It certainly doesn't mean they know what monsters they will face when and where the secret door is. The novels are great because it gives DMs/Players context. Who cares if it doesn't perfectly match what your doing in your game? Do you think that every DM in the realm ends up with the Realms in the same state of affairs when any book comes out? Forget about expecting things to match up when a new major source book comes out. When this happens you can do a few things: Exclude the source book from this particular group's adventures and incorporate it once the party dies/retires. Then you can make use of the new information when you have new PCs coming into the world. Back play some necessary events that make everything work or make the new or old stuff just rumors. You can make a whole story about trying to find out if <Insert dead character name> is really dead. If so who did it? Let's serve up a cold plate. Etc. Etc. Use books for the fluff that they are. They are context for you to pull ideas from. You don't have to radically alter your version of the Realms (and every DM has their own after just a few sessions) just because a novel dealing with the topic came out. Hells you are just telling your own version of the story. When all else fails... Throw away your dice and books and play something that requires no imagination. Try Monopoly or Life. Oh and I read somewhere that a person is DMing for 20 or more people and buying all of their source books. Got an extra seat at one of your session? I could always use some more books. :)
Micheal_Roele 07-17-07, 04:13 PM	Yuzhaan Vong, actually. But yeah, I agree. I mispelled the name on purpose....:) I don't respect the Yugongs enough as villians to spell their name correctly. They are basically poorly done Bio-Klingons with a second rate pantheon of gods. I am sure there is alot of kidding and merciless teasing at the Overdeity Asscociation Ao belongs to when they are brought up in the "1000 Bad Pantheons and Races" workshop. I am not sure MarkusTay63 if they were a 70's Rock Band. I would rather have had Chewbacca die to Disco Stew from the Simpsons than to those clowns.
sithar 07-18-07, 12:43 AM	I mispelled the name on purpose....:) I don't respect the Yugongs enough as villians to spell their name correctly. They are basically poorly done Bio-Klingons with a second rate pantheon of gods. I am sure there is alot of kidding and merciless teasing at the Overdeity Asscociation Ao belongs to when they are brought up in the "1000 Bad Pantheons and Races" workshop. I am not sure MarkusTay63 if they were a 70's Rock Band. I would rather have had Chewbacca die to Disco Stew from the Simpsons than to those clowns. It's spelled Disco Stu to be quite honest :P
Micheal_Roele 07-18-07, 04:20 PM	It's spelled Disco Stu to be quite honest :P Are you sure? Homer would prefer Stew to Stu likey...:)
Karsus the Mad 07-19-07, 07:40 PM	Middle-Earth survived decades without new product coming out (other than reprints), and, oh look, it's back! Same for Star Wars, Star Trek, etc. The franchises go on, and new product shows up, in some cases long after the original author has passed on. The Realms will go on as well. It's got enough 'weight' built up to endure at this point. You really think that what will come will still be the Realms? Giving something a label doesn't make it true. The largest problem is my own nastalgia. My own inability to accept change. Meh. I'm old.
ArnimThayer 07-23-07, 12:08 AM	Actually, D20 Modern and Star Wars Saga Edition seem to be the test market for 4th Edition! Some of my fellow players and I have discussed this at length.
Asgetrion 07-25-07, 07:26 PM	Yeah, still it didn't erase your original ones so you can still run the campaign you had in mind no matter what the book said. :cheer: :cheer: :cheer: I agree. I tend to ignore 'canon' lore if it is contradictionary with my own notes or if it messes up my plans (so nothing like "Alright, as your characters wake up, the whole lay-out of the town of Blackbottom has mysteriously changed overnight. Here's the official map presented in the latest issue of Dragon. Oh, and the new mayor seems to be a war-wizard called Ghulben Greystaff.") For example, my Cormyr-campaign had Azoun dying during the 'Abraxus Affair' because it gave me juicy opportunities to throw in some political intrigue and tensions just as the PCs were adventuring near the Sembian border. Although I enjoyed the novel trilogy, I chose to grant Azoun an unheroic death and ignore completely the rest of the events described in them since they would have messed up my campaign plans badly (e.g. no Ghazneths, Azoun V or goblin invasions). Another DM in my gaming group runs a campaign in which Azoun IV is still alive, and has a son that reminded our characters of a well-educated (human- looking) 'golem-like' being (acted weirdly - almost as if programmed by Vangey). It didn't matter that his take on the events (and fate) of Cormyr were completely different from mine. I know that some gaming groups cling desperately to 'canon' lore and work every major event or change into their campaigns, even if it leads to inconsistencies or paradoxes. Some groups even try to keep all their campaigns (if there are many DMs within the group) consistent with each other ("Since your characters just killed Fzoul, he is now killed in everyone's campaigns, okay?"). I just never saw the point in this - if my character kills Fzoul and takes care that he can never again be resurrected, I cannot use him as a villain in my own campaigns? Why? :P:confused:
Tyshanis 07-25-07, 08:38 PM	RAS should have just had a cameo from Entreri, who would have given Chewbacca an honorable death. A. Chewy would of kicked Entreri's ass B. trying to hold up and being crushed by a planet was pretty valiant c. never found the body d. c-3po is still around e. He can only redeem self by killing off Jar-Jar I think the realms is the only thing wizards have left, all other world created to date have eventually failed, though some were better than others. Thats why I don't buy that crap, and with the everchanging changing cannon I think it will survive a 4th and even 5th edition, The realms would be our generations middle earth Minus the literary masterpeices.
ElberethSilverleaf 07-28-07, 12:40 AM	The only things I like about Eberron is their basis that you can be dedicated to an "ideal" as a cleric and their revamp of the dark elves. Everything else is too much Shadowrun meets MedievalSteamPunk for my tastes.
hawkinsthedm 08-22-07, 09:29 PM	No, there is no 4th Edition announced. For some reason people have to keep hypothesizing about it. I think there are more relevant things to do with their time...but hell! Who the hell am I anyways? Wow, eating my own words. And boy are they bitter. Well, at least we know that FR will survive.
hawkinsthedm 08-22-07, 09:32 PM	Oh, and here (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=905792) is the link to the 4e FR thread so the WizOs can lock this thread like they have every other 4e one not in the 4e forum.
XHereticX 08-24-07, 01:15 PM	So...when is 4th edition coming?
hawkinsthedm 08-24-07, 01:38 PM	So...when is 4th edition coming? Dude, just wondering, how long have you been out of the loop? :confused: PHB 4.0 - May 2008 DMG 4.0 - June 2008 MM 4.0 - July 2008 I may have DMG and MM backwards. Here are the 4e Forums (http://forums.gleemax.com/forumdisplay.php?f=686). And here are the Wizards Staff Blogs (http://forums.gleemax.com/forumdisplay.php?f=684).
tallgeese 08-26-07, 01:43 AM	I think we all know it will survive in some fashion. The question is will we as a gaming community embrace it, or overlook the new material, like many did after the ToT affair. The novels will likey go on for some time as well. I think the point Michael was trying to make above (and correct me if i'm wrong) is that the literary value of the Realms really can't be compared to that of Tolkein. If you look at the Middle Earth mythology (specifically works other than the Hobbit) it's actually written for adults, not the 12-18 yo age group. Hell, I was in grad school before I could manage my way through the first hundred pages of the Silmarillion (finest fantasy work ever). And let's not overlook the sheer amount of linguist work that went into elvish and dwarven tounges. By a professor of linguistics no less, probibly much more authentic than makeing up cool sounding words. The poetry alone in Tolkien's work is extraordinary, without even delving into his creation of modern literary fantasy. Look at RAS for instance (yes, I admit to being a Drizzt fan by and large, although I really wish he would stop his whining over killing that elf chick like four books back). Streams of Silver is pretty much a retelling of Moria, or at least heavily influnced by it (again, not bashing the book, it was one of my favorites). So yes, the Realms are cool and probibly not going away anytime soon. But they really aren't the be all and end all of fanasy mythos. They may very well be the best campain world to date however, or at least the longest running.
MarkusTay63 08-26-07, 08:13 AM	I read the Hobbit and the LotR when I was 13, but have still never finished the Silmarillion - too many similar-sounding names to keep track of. Some people will embrace it, others won't; some will leave, new ones will join... but the Realms will endure. ;)
hawkinsthedm 08-27-07, 11:07 AM	Well, I am looking forward to and planning to buy the new 4.0 FR supplements, even if I do not buy the 4.0 Core. I mostly buy the supplements for the Realmslore. I do not have old 2e Realmslore :(.
msatran 08-27-07, 02:21 PM	Heh. Yuuzhan Vhong. My problem with the Vhong was actually continuity. Doesn't matter who the NPC was previously. Unzip the mansuit! Voila! He's a Yuuzhan Vhong! Mara Jade got you down in your campaign, PC wants romantic relationship with Luke Skywalker? Voila, unzip the mansuit, and she's a Yuuzhan Vhong. Got problems with Han Solo, don't like him? Hell, unzip the Mansuit, he's a Yuuzhan Vhong. It's ridiculous. Just a second...let me scratch the back of my neck...what the...oh...no... ZIPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPP I'm a Yuuzhan Vhong! NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!
MarkusTay63 08-27-07, 02:26 PM	Doesn't matter who the NPC was previously. Unzip the mansuit!Sounds like the bugs from MIB - ..."but it wasn't Egger... it was like sumthin' was wearin' Egger..." :D
Bonzai 08-27-07, 04:17 PM	Okay realmers how will FR survive 4ed? How can it when almost all important regions have been covered? How do you sell a book that was published previously in 3ed? If I was a market manager i'd ask these questions. I just don't see it as marketable as it has been in the past. Back to the OP, The answer to your question is easy.... Just scamble enough things in the realms, so that enough is different to write new source books. In the 10 year fast forward we will probably see the following geographical changes (putting a spoiler block here, as it has to do with the novels); 1. Thay and Halrula will probably suffer harshly from the spell plague, and be reshaped completley... that is if Thay survives it's civil war. 2. Oboulds Kingdom of Dark Arrows will be firmly established and entrenched. 3. Muholand will probably be done annexing Unther. 4. Damarra and Vasaa will probably be merged into the kingdom of the Bloodstone Lands, under Gareth Dragonsbane. 5. The Imaskari will have returned to the Raurin desert, and starting their comeback. 6. The city that was raised in the novel Blackstaff will be settled and established. 7. Myth Drannor is back, and by then will be stable. 8. Commyr may be about to apoint the heir as their king, with the regent stepping down. 9. Shadow Dale is now fully Zhent Territory. 10. The Shades may have a 2nd floating enclave. 11. Undermountain will undergo drastic changes without Halaster to guide it, so you can bet that some force will claim it (drow, illithids, or worse), and it will be a bad thing for the people of Waterdeep. 12. Khelben's twins will be about 11 or 12 years old or so. You can bet that the children of two chosen/grandchildren of Mystra will be something special. Thats just a short list that comes to mind. Certainly there is enough just from that, to write several new source books (which I think was their plan all along).
MarkusTay63 08-27-07, 04:35 PM	And don't forget about the succesion wars in Tethyr, and the recovery of Amn after "the Dark Years". By then, the Calishites will have discovered the Drow in their midst and once again chase them out, with the usual incredible loss of life and property. Perhaps Calimshan will become a city of the dead instead. :devil: Unless, of course, RAS gets his way and Jarlaxle becomes God-Emperor of Bloodstone, in which case the Lands of Intrigue will be vasal states by then. At that point they might as well rename Abeir-Toril the planet Baenre, and be done with it. :rolleyes:
hawkinsthedm 09-06-07, 02:33 PM	Rich Baker said this when I queried him about the jump in the timeline on another thread: All that we've said officially is this: The last entry in the Grand History is set in 1385, the Year of Blue Fire. From this remark many people have speculated about a timeline jump. More than that I am not at liberty to say right now, but I expect to be able to talk a little more about the "new" Realms in just a couple of weeks. Just thought you guys might find it interesting.
hawkinsthedm 09-06-07, 02:37 PM	Also: I just want to make one more call to all you Realms fans out there: Please buy a copy of the Grand History of the Realms so we can show WotC that we want more lore (to some, read: fluff) in our Realms materials and less crunch. The more editionless, the better!
Mr_Miscellany 09-07-07, 09:00 PM	I'm going to drop that into my sig, I think.
Karsus the Mad 09-07-07, 09:18 PM	An editionless Realms is something I can afford...pop out the same stuff rehashed each edition...I can't afford. I'm well off, but not that rich.