Human to Elves - Would it be allowed? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Human to Elves - Would it be allowed? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Solauren
07-29-07, 04:58 PM During a recent adventure, two psionically gifted elves ended up looking through an human orphanage after a running across a rather psionically gifted child. (How often to you run into 13 year olds with Intelligence scores of 19 with the ability to use magic and psionics already?)

The one elf was rather touched by a child asking if he can go home with him, and considered adoption.

The other elf was opposed, as they live on Evermeet when not adventuring, and they would be hard pressed to get permission to bring a bunch of human children there.

So, the reply was - "So, why not turn them into Elf children?"

Now, the question -
How would the elven gods react to this? On any scale?

I.e a larger family of elves, with the resources to raise lots of children, decide to literally adopt several orphanages worth of humans, and turn them into elves

(Obviously using magical means)

And, assuming the gods were okay with this, how would other elves react if they found out? Would they care if the gods were okay with it?

We're torn because we can see the usefulness of this. The elves do have a bit of a population problem, and odds are those poor human children are not going to have good or easy lives.
Calmar
07-29-07, 05:03 PM How do you change the kid's race, besides slaughtering and reincarnating them so long untill they are elves :confused:
Drew1369r
07-29-07, 05:25 PM Leave them human but raise them in the ways of the elf so they may spread forth and raise the voice of elves in the human lands... or some such non-sense... elves are wusses and I doubt they would allow there precious precious evermeet to be tainted with human presence... morons all the way...

But topic at hand

They could see thru the polymorph spell so thats out of the question...

Calmer may have hit the nail as to kill them one by one and have a druid cast re-incarnate until you get an elf kid... but that would cause some serious psycho problems in their young fragile minds...
Solauren
07-29-07, 06:21 PM I was thinking alone the lines of

"Wish", "Miracle", a ritual like those described in Savage Species, or the Elven High Magic spell the elves used in the past to turn and elf of one subrace into another for various reasons.
HVulpes
07-29-07, 10:00 PM It depends. There are likely rituals and spells that can alter races, like the spell in Lost Empires of Faerun that can turn a subject into a half-fiend.

I would one recommend reading the book in the download section of Wizard, Cormanthor: Empire of Elves. It contains 2 ed details on Elven life, but it gives much details on elves.

It is possible for humans to be raised on Evermeet, but those humans have to be at least elf-friends and the two I know about are choosen of Mystra. Dove's Son and Laeral's daughter were raised on Evermeet, of course people didn't like Laeral's Daughter and Prince Larael (wrong spelling likely) falling in love. They hope that he will chose an elven wife to continue the line for his new kingdom.

The factors for turning a human into an elf are many. One do they advertise. They could create a cover story of finding an elven orphan.

Another might be race. Moon and Wood elves might be more accepting then Sun and Wild elves.

Another is rank. nobles elves might be less accepting of a possible former human heir.

One turn would be that the Eldreth Veluuthra (A organization of poor disfranchised/Noble bigiots who believe that humans are vermin and a plague on elfkind. Half-elves are an abomination to them.) would become a major foe for the group both on and off Evermeet. You might want to pick up Champions of Ruin and Lords of Darkness to add more to your adventures.

I hope that this helps.
Solauren
07-29-07, 10:41 PM Maybe I should clarify....

#1 - I am aware of all the methods for permenant-cross species transformation.
#2 - If it's a Original D&D, 1st or 2nd Edition AD&D, or third edition D&D book, I own it, and have read it back to back.

I'm concerned about how the Elven Gods would react, or if they would even allow a large number of human children to be turned into elves (and given good homes), and how the General Elven Populace would react to finding out such transformations had/were occuring If these transformations had the approval of the Elven Gods

It's not about adopting human children, it's about turning those human children into elves.
Omya
07-30-07, 04:46 PM Well if a non-elf worships Corallon when they die their 'human' soul becomes an 'elven' soul. As a petitioner in the afterlife they become elves -pointy ears and everything else. :)
Dimensional_Drifter
07-30-07, 05:56 PM Don't know what the Seldarine would think, however I think that most mortal elves would throw a fit if anyone mentioned the barbaric humans of inferior culture and all, ever becoming elves. If the humans did become elves, they certainly wouldn't be treated as elves. They'd still be "not People."
The WarOverlord
07-31-07, 06:50 AM Maybe I should clarify....

#1 - I am aware of all the methods for permenant-cross species transformation.
#2 - If it's a Original D&D, 1st or 2nd Edition AD&D, or third edition D&D book, I own it, and have read it back to back.

I'm concerned about how the Elven Gods would react, or if they would even allow a large number of human children to be turned into elves (and given good homes), and how the General Elven Populace would react to finding out such transformations had/were occuring If these transformations had the approval of the Elven Gods

It's not about adopting human children, it's about turning those human children into elves.

Well, actually depends where the Elves of the Forgotten Realms was migrated from as the native peoples of the Forgotten Realms that brought in Humans and Elves and such as Slave Labor are thos Reptile People thinges whos Empire fell long before the Nations of Elves and such before Nenthril came to be yada,yada, yada

Elves from Urt Realm would be mutated Humans as would be Dwarfs, halfings and Gnomes from Urt Realm.

Likewise Elves,Humans, Dwarfs and such from Athas Realm would be Mutated Haflings via the "Lifemaster's" rather then godling intervention.

The Dietypes across the Realms seem to be the same though the "Founding Realms" of certain Species are not but the "true Elves" were supposedly formed from drops of blood that fell off of the Main Elf God when he was fighting with the Main God of the Orcs and became independent entities that breeded true.....lol. It's likey, cause they look so unlike human based or Halfling based Elves that the ones of the Forgotten Realms are the "god's blood" ones

Oh, and Humans were the first mortals made too much like the "gods" in free will and free choice and every other attempt from Elves to Orcs are all half assed failed attempt to make creatures in the image of the Immortals that made then that fall short of the Glory of Humans...It's why more Humans reach true Immortal Satus (godhood) then any other race and have unlimited Class and power advancement.......so I have this 10 foot golden Pole I can tell the Elves of Evermeet what I think they can go do with it (THink Vlad the impaler..the slow death ancient colonosipy method)

Oh and in the Multiverse aspect Humans are the most dominant species in all the Multiverse with some Realms being exclusively Human with only each other to bicker with and kill...so, there (gesture), to Evermeet...something that a few nuclear bombs could make a true eternal Paradise...lol ( Or in purely Forgotten Realms terms if Every Nation of Humans turned on Evermeet it is still a Custard situation...not that there is anything worth taking of the place anyway)
MarkusTay63
07-31-07, 12:17 PM Gods do not see flesh,the look at souls. If the child has an Elven soul, the actual physical race matters not when they die - A certain 'human' mage recently went to Aryvandar, even though he was one of Mystra's Chosen. ;)

Yes, don't correct me, I'm well aware of his lineage, but he was mostly human and was cosidered so for hundreds of years.

My point is that a soul matters MUCH more to a god then some brief manifestation on the prime material plane.

You want a precedent- the half-races go to whatever afterlife is appropriate to how they lived their lives.

- and Drizzt will most likely end up in Mielikki's afterlife. ;)
Wizardman
08-01-07, 12:53 AM I should think that the Seldarine would be fairly lax, depending on the intent of the casters and the wishes of the children. They would only have a problem if any of the children were unwilling to be so transformed.
Boda
08-01-07, 07:52 PM of course, everybody keeps forgetting how the human deities would look at this ''mass pouching''. Maybe some Banites, Tempurans, other more muscle based faiths think:'' Eyh, maybe we should begin to import some elven talent by shapechange!''
Drew1369r
08-01-07, 08:11 PM The elves have talant?

J/k one of my best characters was an Elf/Fighter that worshipped Tempus...
Dimensional_Drifter
08-01-07, 10:29 PM of course, everybody keeps forgetting how the human deities would look at this ''mass pouching''. Maybe some Banites, Tempurans, other more muscle based faiths think:'' Eyh, maybe we should begin to import some elven talent by shapechange!''

You mean poaching? I don't think it would be illegal hunting-- that is what poaching is. Besides, most children in the realms don't pick a patron deity or favored deities, as only clerics truly worship only one deity almost exclusively, (remember that the realms are polytheistic) until later in life, and even so I don't think any human deity would attack the Seldarine for the beliefs of a few individuals anyway. Besides the question wasn't converting them religiously, but turning them into elves, right?
Solauren
08-01-07, 11:43 PM That's correct. Just into elves

Whoever they end up worshipping is up to the kid.

With the exception of Mystra, it's not like they'd really expose them to human beliefs....
Dimensional_Drifter
08-01-07, 11:47 PM Hah! I was right. However, I ask: If it doesn't matter who they worship, then why would the Seldarine care if they become elves? Wouldn't they true question be: Would the elves care if they became elves?
Solauren
08-02-07, 04:46 PM It was asked in the original OP, how would other elves react to elves that were once human, provided the seldarine were okay with it.

Or do you mean would the humans children care if they were turned into elves?
The Simbul
08-08-07, 11:29 PM Why don't your elf characters simply set up a temporary abode on the mainland and raise them there. If they are old enough to talk then it should be little more than a decade before they are at the minimum starting age for a 1st level character (although the complexity of the class increases the minimum age). A decade or two is next to nothing for an elf, and probably would come with far less complications that whatever costs and sacrifices might come about if your act ends up not being viewed in a positive light.

As for transforming them. I personally would consider it to be unethical to work that kind of life-altering magic upon a child, unless transforming or otherwise concealing the child was necessary to safeguard it from harm (such as a vision that claiming that a child of a particular description would someday overthrow a lich-king for example). Moreover, I think the Seldarine and the elven communities would not like it overmuch either. Half-elves already have a negative social position for their 'impurity'. I imagine being a false elf entirely would incur greater animosity--either to the person or the one who made them that way.
The WarOverlord
08-11-07, 06:14 AM Hah! I was right. However, I ask: If it doesn't matter who they worship, then why would the Seldarine care if they become elves? Wouldn't they true question be: Would the elves care if they became elves?

No, no. The REAL question is why would any responsible parent want to limit their Human Child's potential by turning it into an Elf? (Even an Elf adoptive Parent)

Again Elves are one of the "failed experiments" to make creations not as potentially as powerful as the gods in ambition,determination, and drive but human like in thier version of "perfection"...which by the way evey Pantheon claims to have made Humans, yet none can seem to prove it by creating more humans...just wannabes like Elves, Orcs, and other half ass backward humaniod "human" wannabes.

Dwarfs, Halflings, and other "demi-Humans" are in fact actual HUmans the gods dabbled with once they gave up trying to make HUmans from Scratch (and failed)
GothicDan
08-11-07, 09:33 AM WarOverlord, quit talking smack and making things up. You're going to end up confusing people, and I don't feel like correcting all of your weird opinions in regards to canon.
msatran
08-11-07, 04:45 PM Wish costs 26,530 GP, and 5000 XP.

Problem solved.

Doing this on a regular basis will cause your fellow Elves to join the Eldreth Veluuthra in large numbers. Don't worry. They'll still like you, even if the Seldarine don't.

This message has been brought to you by the Gold Elf Conspiracy, and it's secret leader, Tordynnath Rhaenvern.

Soon, you will be an elf, or you will be dead. :)

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Solauren 07-29-07, 04:58 PM	During a recent adventure, two psionically gifted elves ended up looking through an human orphanage after a running across a rather psionically gifted child. (How often to you run into 13 year olds with Intelligence scores of 19 with the ability to use magic and psionics already?) The one elf was rather touched by a child asking if he can go home with him, and considered adoption. The other elf was opposed, as they live on Evermeet when not adventuring, and they would be hard pressed to get permission to bring a bunch of human children there. So, the reply was - "So, why not turn them into Elf children?" Now, the question - How would the elven gods react to this? On any scale? I.e a larger family of elves, with the resources to raise lots of children, decide to literally adopt several orphanages worth of humans, and turn them into elves (Obviously using magical means) And, assuming the gods were okay with this, how would other elves react if they found out? Would they care if the gods were okay with it? We're torn because we can see the usefulness of this. The elves do have a bit of a population problem, and odds are those poor human children are not going to have good or easy lives.
Calmar 07-29-07, 05:03 PM	How do you change the kid's race, besides slaughtering and reincarnating them so long untill they are elves :confused:
Drew1369r 07-29-07, 05:25 PM	Leave them human but raise them in the ways of the elf so they may spread forth and raise the voice of elves in the human lands... or some such non-sense... elves are wusses and I doubt they would allow there precious precious evermeet to be tainted with human presence... morons all the way... But topic at hand They could see thru the polymorph spell so thats out of the question... Calmer may have hit the nail as to kill them one by one and have a druid cast re-incarnate until you get an elf kid... but that would cause some serious psycho problems in their young fragile minds...
Solauren 07-29-07, 06:21 PM	I was thinking alone the lines of "Wish", "Miracle", a ritual like those described in Savage Species, or the Elven High Magic spell the elves used in the past to turn and elf of one subrace into another for various reasons.
HVulpes 07-29-07, 10:00 PM	It depends. There are likely rituals and spells that can alter races, like the spell in Lost Empires of Faerun that can turn a subject into a half-fiend. I would one recommend reading the book in the download section of Wizard, Cormanthor: Empire of Elves. It contains 2 ed details on Elven life, but it gives much details on elves. It is possible for humans to be raised on Evermeet, but those humans have to be at least elf-friends and the two I know about are choosen of Mystra. Dove's Son and Laeral's daughter were raised on Evermeet, of course people didn't like Laeral's Daughter and Prince Larael (wrong spelling likely) falling in love. They hope that he will chose an elven wife to continue the line for his new kingdom. The factors for turning a human into an elf are many. One do they advertise. They could create a cover story of finding an elven orphan. Another might be race. Moon and Wood elves might be more accepting then Sun and Wild elves. Another is rank. nobles elves might be less accepting of a possible former human heir. One turn would be that the Eldreth Veluuthra (A organization of poor disfranchised/Noble bigiots who believe that humans are vermin and a plague on elfkind. Half-elves are an abomination to them.) would become a major foe for the group both on and off Evermeet. You might want to pick up Champions of Ruin and Lords of Darkness to add more to your adventures. I hope that this helps.
Solauren 07-29-07, 10:41 PM	Maybe I should clarify.... #1 - I am aware of all the methods for permenant-cross species transformation. #2 - If it's a Original D&D, 1st or 2nd Edition AD&D, or third edition D&D book, I own it, and have read it back to back. I'm concerned about how the Elven Gods would react, or if they would even allow a large number of human children to be turned into elves (and given good homes), and how the General Elven Populace would react to finding out such transformations had/were occuring If these transformations had the approval of the Elven Gods It's not about adopting human children, it's about turning those human children into elves.
Omya 07-30-07, 04:46 PM	Well if a non-elf worships Corallon when they die their 'human' soul becomes an 'elven' soul. As a petitioner in the afterlife they become elves -pointy ears and everything else. :)
Dimensional_Drifter 07-30-07, 05:56 PM	Don't know what the Seldarine would think, however I think that most mortal elves would throw a fit if anyone mentioned the barbaric humans of inferior culture and all, ever becoming elves. If the humans did become elves, they certainly wouldn't be treated as elves. They'd still be "not People."
The WarOverlord 07-31-07, 06:50 AM	Maybe I should clarify.... #1 - I am aware of all the methods for permenant-cross species transformation. #2 - If it's a Original D&D, 1st or 2nd Edition AD&D, or third edition D&D book, I own it, and have read it back to back. I'm concerned about how the Elven Gods would react, or if they would even allow a large number of human children to be turned into elves (and given good homes), and how the General Elven Populace would react to finding out such transformations had/were occuring If these transformations had the approval of the Elven Gods It's not about adopting human children, it's about turning those human children into elves. Well, actually depends where the Elves of the Forgotten Realms was migrated from as the native peoples of the Forgotten Realms that brought in Humans and Elves and such as Slave Labor are thos Reptile People thinges whos Empire fell long before the Nations of Elves and such before Nenthril came to be yada,yada, yada Elves from Urt Realm would be mutated Humans as would be Dwarfs, halfings and Gnomes from Urt Realm. Likewise Elves,Humans, Dwarfs and such from Athas Realm would be Mutated Haflings via the "Lifemaster's" rather then godling intervention. The Dietypes across the Realms seem to be the same though the "Founding Realms" of certain Species are not but the "true Elves" were supposedly formed from drops of blood that fell off of the Main Elf God when he was fighting with the Main God of the Orcs and became independent entities that breeded true.....lol. It's likey, cause they look so unlike human based or Halfling based Elves that the ones of the Forgotten Realms are the "god's blood" ones Oh, and Humans were the first mortals made too much like the "gods" in free will and free choice and every other attempt from Elves to Orcs are all half assed failed attempt to make creatures in the image of the Immortals that made then that fall short of the Glory of Humans...It's why more Humans reach true Immortal Satus (godhood) then any other race and have unlimited Class and power advancement.......so I have this 10 foot golden Pole I can tell the Elves of Evermeet what I think they can go do with it (THink Vlad the impaler..the slow death ancient colonosipy method) Oh and in the Multiverse aspect Humans are the most dominant species in all the Multiverse with some Realms being exclusively Human with only each other to bicker with and kill...so, there (gesture), to Evermeet...something that a few nuclear bombs could make a true eternal Paradise...lol ( Or in purely Forgotten Realms terms if Every Nation of Humans turned on Evermeet it is still a Custard situation...not that there is anything worth taking of the place anyway)
MarkusTay63 07-31-07, 12:17 PM	Gods do not see flesh,the look at souls. If the child has an Elven soul, the actual physical race matters not when they die - A certain 'human' mage recently went to Aryvandar, even though he was one of Mystra's Chosen. ;) Yes, don't correct me, I'm well aware of his lineage, but he was mostly human and was cosidered so for hundreds of years. My point is that a soul matters MUCH more to a god then some brief manifestation on the prime material plane. You want a precedent- the half-races go to whatever afterlife is appropriate to how they lived their lives. - and Drizzt will most likely end up in Mielikki's afterlife. ;)
Wizardman 08-01-07, 12:53 AM	I should think that the Seldarine would be fairly lax, depending on the intent of the casters and the wishes of the children. They would only have a problem if any of the children were unwilling to be so transformed.
Boda 08-01-07, 07:52 PM	of course, everybody keeps forgetting how the human deities would look at this ''mass pouching''. Maybe some Banites, Tempurans, other more muscle based faiths think:'' Eyh, maybe we should begin to import some elven talent by shapechange!''
Drew1369r 08-01-07, 08:11 PM	The elves have talant? J/k one of my best characters was an Elf/Fighter that worshipped Tempus...
Dimensional_Drifter 08-01-07, 10:29 PM	of course, everybody keeps forgetting how the human deities would look at this ''mass pouching''. Maybe some Banites, Tempurans, other more muscle based faiths think:'' Eyh, maybe we should begin to import some elven talent by shapechange!'' You mean poaching? I don't think it would be illegal hunting-- that is what poaching is. Besides, most children in the realms don't pick a patron deity or favored deities, as only clerics truly worship only one deity almost exclusively, (remember that the realms are polytheistic) until later in life, and even so I don't think any human deity would attack the Seldarine for the beliefs of a few individuals anyway. Besides the question wasn't converting them religiously, but turning them into elves, right?
Solauren 08-01-07, 11:43 PM	That's correct. Just into elves Whoever they end up worshipping is up to the kid. With the exception of Mystra, it's not like they'd really expose them to human beliefs....
Dimensional_Drifter 08-01-07, 11:47 PM	Hah! I was right. However, I ask: If it doesn't matter who they worship, then why would the Seldarine care if they become elves? Wouldn't they true question be: Would the elves care if they became elves?
Solauren 08-02-07, 04:46 PM	It was asked in the original OP, how would other elves react to elves that were once human, provided the seldarine were okay with it. Or do you mean would the humans children care if they were turned into elves?
The Simbul 08-08-07, 11:29 PM	Why don't your elf characters simply set up a temporary abode on the mainland and raise them there. If they are old enough to talk then it should be little more than a decade before they are at the minimum starting age for a 1st level character (although the complexity of the class increases the minimum age). A decade or two is next to nothing for an elf, and probably would come with far less complications that whatever costs and sacrifices might come about if your act ends up not being viewed in a positive light. As for transforming them. I personally would consider it to be unethical to work that kind of life-altering magic upon a child, unless transforming or otherwise concealing the child was necessary to safeguard it from harm (such as a vision that claiming that a child of a particular description would someday overthrow a lich-king for example). Moreover, I think the Seldarine and the elven communities would not like it overmuch either. Half-elves already have a negative social position for their 'impurity'. I imagine being a false elf entirely would incur greater animosity--either to the person or the one who made them that way.
The WarOverlord 08-11-07, 06:14 AM	Hah! I was right. However, I ask: If it doesn't matter who they worship, then why would the Seldarine care if they become elves? Wouldn't they true question be: Would the elves care if they became elves? No, no. The REAL question is why would any responsible parent want to limit their Human Child's potential by turning it into an Elf? (Even an Elf adoptive Parent) Again Elves are one of the "failed experiments" to make creations not as potentially as powerful as the gods in ambition,determination, and drive but human like in thier version of "perfection"...which by the way evey Pantheon claims to have made Humans, yet none can seem to prove it by creating more humans...just wannabes like Elves, Orcs, and other half ass backward humaniod "human" wannabes. Dwarfs, Halflings, and other "demi-Humans" are in fact actual HUmans the gods dabbled with once they gave up trying to make HUmans from Scratch (and failed)
GothicDan 08-11-07, 09:33 AM	WarOverlord, quit talking smack and making things up. You're going to end up confusing people, and I don't feel like correcting all of your weird opinions in regards to canon.
msatran 08-11-07, 04:45 PM	Wish costs 26,530 GP, and 5000 XP. Problem solved. Doing this on a regular basis will cause your fellow Elves to join the Eldreth Veluuthra in large numbers. Don't worry. They'll still like you, even if the Seldarine don't. This message has been brought to you by the Gold Elf Conspiracy, and it's secret leader, Tordynnath Rhaenvern. Soon, you will be an elf, or you will be dead. :)