Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Bladesong 08-12-06, 02:32 PM	I've come up with the theory that the humans of the Forgotten Realms have "jumped the shark", so to say, and are in decline hence the ability of other peoples to recarve their niche into the world. If you think about it, the greatest human powers have gone and passed, hundreds if not thousands of years ago. Netheril, Imaskar, Jhaamdath are all gone. Jhaamdath was even able to slaughter nine of ten elves of the Chondalwood who were still using high mahic regularly. In their wake, they leave dozens of small nations, each weaker than any human realm that had existed. Any thoughts?
Kamekazou 08-12-06, 02:37 PM	Even if the new nations are relatively weaker than those of old, humans are still the most dominant and populated race on Toril. Not to mention the deities in the main pantheon take the form of humans.
GothicDan 08-12-06, 07:50 PM	Many deities have demihuman forms too. Off the top of my head, Lathander, Milil, and Mielikki.
Dark Wizard 08-12-06, 08:39 PM	It's not like the other races are that much better off. Both the elves and dwarves are just starting to gather their numbers together to reclaim lost lands.
Agent_of_the_Crown 08-12-06, 08:42 PM	I can only speak for the campaigns that I am running and playing in on this topic with any real conviction. In those campaigns Elves are definetly on the rise, and humans are just treading water so to speak. The re-birth of Myth Drannor is coming. In all seriousness though, I have to say that what I know of the Realms seems to lead me to believe that Humans will remain a powerful force in the world, but in fact, Elves will be re-asserting their bid for dominance. The Chosen of Mystra are almost all human (the ones we routinely hear about anyway) but they are all going insane slowly and will eventually need to be replaced. Quilue would seem to have the longest potential left in her, and she is an elf (Dark Elves are still elves after all). I think humans will still have much to contribute, but I could certainly see where one might argue that they are in decline right now. Don't count them out though. If their is one thing humans are good at, it suprising you with their tenacity and will to succeed. Everyone used to talk about elves like they were dying off, but now they seem to be on the up-swing. Next thing you know, Dwarves will be the dominant power, or....or maybe Kobolds!
GothicDan 08-12-06, 09:08 PM	Ironically enough, the Elves never were in real danger of being depopulated or "overpowered" - for the most part, they just decided to withdraw from mainland Faerun to try to avert such a -possible- future. There's over 2,000,000 Elves we know of (not counting the Drow) still in Faerun and Evermeet.
BrennonGoldeye 08-12-06, 09:43 PM	And if the refounding of Myth Drannor brings even half the advancement the original did then Humans will be doing much more than treading water. At least those humans friendly to the Ruling Blade.... :plotting:
Bladesong 08-12-06, 10:40 PM	I would say that the total population of elves in the realms would be closer to three million. I did a count some time ago using the FRCS book and got something like 2.6 million. However, the populations presented in that book only count permanent residents within the borders of the nation and some nations and regions were not represented at all. Speaking of which, can anyone postulate on the total population of drow in the realms? With all their chaos, intrigue, and constant killing, one would imagine that there is a substantial population, perhaps larger than their surface kin
BrianCritchley 08-13-06, 03:44 AM	I'm not sure if humans themselves are in decline but many of the human states out there may be.
Yokinobu 08-13-06, 03:58 AM	Even if the new nations are relatively weaker than those of old, humans are still the most dominant and populated race on Toril. True. And who knows when another powerful nation will rise up? Besides, humans recover so much faster from catastrophe. Most all of the lands that used to be inhabited(that can still be inhabited) by powerful human kingdoms/empires are yet inhabited by humans today. Not so much with other races. Orcs and goblinoids repopulate fast too, but humans put their population to good use.
Agent_of_the_Crown 08-13-06, 04:52 AM	I am only speculating here, but I would imagine that the Drow are probably about as populous as any other major elven sub-race. I doubt they are as populous as the entire surface elven races. Just my opinion. I figure they could easily get to the point of having a population larger than all of their surface kin put together, but that would require a drastic sociological/cultural shift and Lolth wouldn't care for that too much!
Zextril 08-14-06, 07:00 AM	Humans remind me of rabbits... I highly doubt they are on the decline........ Mayhaps in "power" but never in numbers. The Human moral is strong, tho seperated, if a force threated the race as a whole, they would more or likly bind togeather to overcome this force. What happens afterwards, well that is another story. I'm pretty sure that was one of the contributing arguments to the human elf threat, and had to do with the mythal being raised for Commothner? (cant remember exact spelling but i gues you et my drift.. been up all night cant quite put what I'm thinking into words but i think you might beable to manage somthing intelegable out of this.) Zextril
empty 08-14-06, 07:25 AM	Dont forget that humans are the race of destiny... Anytime the human race is in big trouble, one (or a group of) person(s) overcome the challenges, learn, get powerful, and in a spectacular battle they kill the overlord, or the source of the trouble, and the rest of the trouble just dissolve in the aftermath (or the big castle fall toghether piece for piece as soon as the heroes has escaped, killing most of the minions). At least, thats always whats happens in books or campaings... :D And remember that the ancient civilisations does usually build up in a Golden Age, then falls down afterwards...Then some time passes, and a new civilisation reach their golden age. It has happened multiple times in our world, and the FR worlds has many ties to our ("the real") world.
Bladesong 08-14-06, 09:38 AM	True but in our world, there are no other races. Demihuman kingdoms don't decline per se, since dwarves and elves are so long-lived. Actually, the way humans in the Forgotten Realms seem to act, if there was some big catastrophe, it seems more likely that more than one nation would stab another in the back, just to grab a bigger niche in the post-catastrophe realms.
BrennonGoldeye 08-14-06, 10:54 AM	Actually, the way humans in the Forgotten Realms seem to act, if there was some big catastrophe, it seems more likely that more than one nation would stab another in the back, just to grab a bigger niche in the post-catastrophe realms. Hmm, sounds familiar.. Oh yeah, my 9th grade world history course... :)
Bonzai 08-14-06, 11:17 AM	There realms are in a rebuilding stage right now. The Old Empires took centuries to rise to their peak. There is no telling where a Kindom like Thay will be 500 years in the future. There will be great human civilizations again. As to the other races, thanks to the Thunder Blessing, the dwarves are getting back to healthy numbers. Elves are returning, but still out numbered. Haflings.... well, they are all fated to die from their high cholesterol diets anyways. Even the Orcs are showing the signs of a civilization with King Obould. So the realms are building towards another peak. Eventually some natural disaster, barbarian horde, plague, or act of gods will knock them down again.
createvmind 08-14-06, 03:03 PM	Drow are not likely to have the numbers of the other elven races simply due to the constant infighting that occurs, remember a drow city is probably between 50-75 percent of various slave races. Secondly the resources necessary for population increase are heavily competed over in the Underdark, not like the surface where an elf can live outside his society. some of the largest drow cities have suffered the worse losses of late, loss to Mithral hall and Lloth's transformation.
Mkhaiwati 08-14-06, 03:47 PM	Perhaps the humans are in a decline, but I see something a little different; a rise of areas of racial cooperation. Example would be the Silver Marches and the new Fellowship of the Purple Staff, which have humans mostly, but also some elves, half-elves, and a clan of dwarves nearby who are not part of them, yet. The new city in the High Moors is comprised mainly of elves, but have human, dwarves, and centaurs there as well. just a random thought....
kaeso 08-14-06, 04:15 PM	I would be happy if the humans began to lose power IF it meant the halflings and gnomes were gaining power. I don't mind if the dwarves come back in power, either, just... make those elves and humans stop dominating, at least for a little while. They aren't the only ones on Faerun :mad:
Derren S. 08-14-06, 04:30 PM	The power of mankind might have waned a bit but there is no one who could have taken advantage of this. The only race which became more powerfull were probably the orcs but not by much. So everything will stay the same like all things do in the FR.
GothicDan 08-14-06, 07:12 PM	Except for all of the idiotic RSE's.
Bladesong 08-15-06, 12:48 AM	There is no telling where a Kindom like Thay will be 500 years in the future. There will be great human civilizations again. Heh. That's if it still exists in 500 years.
dragonheart 08-18-06, 10:09 AM	basically think of it as sort of the entire continent coming out a rather long dark ages (fall of Netheril, Myth Drannor, Earlann, Jaamdath, etc) with all the groups finally starting to get back on their feet at about the same time. HUmans are building/rebuilding/consolidating in Mulhorond, Calimshan, AMn, Tethyr, Silver MArchess, Sembia, even the Moonsea, Elves are returning and rebuilding Cormanthor, Evereska, HIgh Forest, Dwarves have the thunder blessing and are looking to rebuild shanatar and other ancient homes (Mithril Hall, Tethyamar, etc). so its not so much that humans are weakening - everyone was weak there for a few centruries and all of them are starting to recover and really get a new round of growth started. If you compare it to Earth you had the real (well sort of) Dark ages after the fall of Rome (450AD to 1000AD) and then the middle ages (semidark ages 1000AD to 1500 AD) wiht the modern advanced world really taking off after 1500. Faerun is a multiracial world (as opposed to human only on earth) but is basically in that 1400-1600 starting to really take off period. All the races are really making a comeback not just the elves and dwarves with the humans falling behind. the question for the future is how well are they going tobe able to work together in relative peace as the populations of humanoids also expands (orc kingdome in the silvermarches anyone? :D )
Voran 08-20-06, 09:26 AM	If I recall, there was a small section over why Humans had such dominance overall in FR. A combination of their perspectives due to their relatively short lifespans compared to other 'good' races, and their skill at trade. Humans like making money, and pushing their views farther and farther from their own homelands. Alot of the other races tend to like staying closer to their own homes.
Asadeseth 08-27-06, 02:57 AM	Well with the end of the dragon rages and the reasertian of the Dragon gods, Dragons will become even MORE of a problem for Humans (and the other humanoids). But yes humans are pulling together ans still very dynamic, and don't forget humans are from the same banch of the mammal famalie tree that gave us Rats and Rabbits... SWARM SWARM MY BREATHRAN (okay their not THAT closely related, but alot closer than cats or say sheep) Another thing to rember is that some of the old human civs are starting to rear their heads. Netheril- Shades, Halura. Imaskar- Deep Imaskari. Jhamadath- Well lets say not all of Jhamadath fell, much was just nocked into a sort of stasis, and well Aupensure is wakeing up...
Issabella 08-27-06, 08:41 AM	I would say that the total population of elves in the realms would be closer to three million. I did a count some time ago using the FRCS book and got something like 2.6 million. However, the populations presented in that book only count permanent residents within the borders of the nation and some nations and regions were not represented at all. Speaking of which, can anyone postulate on the total population of drow in the realms? With all their chaos, intrigue, and constant killing, one would imagine that there is a substantial population, perhaps larger than their surface kin perhaps you could clarify that second paragraph for me, I asked a similar question, with all their chaos, intrigue, and constant warfare with their fellow drow, wars of conquest, and constat fratracide. Would not the drow population be significantly lower then the total of the surface elves? Perhaps even lower then certain branches save the avarial. Unless I missed somewhere in Realms Lore where the drow breed like humans or worse goblins?
Bladesong 08-28-06, 04:23 AM	Well, the drow for all intents and purposes, seem to be a very successful race. They are wide-spread, having several metropolis-level cities (that we know of, who knows about the others), feared by much more populous races, and seem to have a stable population. This occurs despite the turmoil their race is constantly experiencing. The only explanation that find that makes sense is that their success stems for their long lifespans, relatively high birthrates, and a very large existing population.
The Ubbergeek 08-28-06, 10:08 AM	But drow, outside of the surface-adapted communauties (and they are a minority), will always be too tied to the Underdark to be a major movers-shackers factor on the surface, except in that dictature that is led by a caste of half-drow. Same for Duergar, Svirfneblin and all other underdarkian races.
Bladesong 08-28-06, 02:16 PM	But drow, outside of the surface-adapted communauties (and they are a minority), will always be too tied to the Underdark to be a major movers-shackers factor on the surface, except in that dictature that is led by a caste of half-drow. Same for Duergar, Svirfneblin and all other underdarkian races. Yes that's true but kinda irrelevant, Ubbergeek :P . They are wide-spread and populous in the Underdark. You're right in your assessment, I believe that they should pacify the Underdark and find some semblance of unity before making any surface conquests.
Zargain 08-29-06, 02:18 AM	I think people are leaving out something very important. the thunder blessing of the dwarves. I mean it only began a little less than a century ago meaning that only now that generation is begining to reach adulthood. Lets not forget as well that two of the three dwarven hold sin the north were just recently reclaimed as well (Citadel Felbar and Mithral Hall) and there are countless other abandoned/captured dwarven holds within the spine of the world and the other mountains. I think based on the eagerness of adventure and the sheer size of the thunder Blessing, I think (and will have in my campaigns) that the shield dwarves will begin to grow as a substantial entity in Faerun. Does this mean humans will decline? Not much I believe. Its unlikely that humans will ever be "wiped out" so to speak or anything similar since they cover all of faerun. Every realm has a large human population (save Evermeet, Evereska or maybe the Great Rift but those are exceptions). One of the biggest powers in Faerun (Waterdeep) has a majority human population and humans generaly are allied with Dwarves and Elves or at least respectful.
Faraer 08-29-06, 04:57 AM	There's probably more concrete evidence somewhere, but I can't believe the drow are anything like as populous as any of the demihuman races. They're restricted to a relative few cities separated by endless miles of tunnels; and despite the fungi, faerzress and everything else done to make subterranean civilizations plausible, there's no way the Underdark can support populations approaching surface ones.
Issabella 08-29-06, 04:06 PM	I was just wondering HOW they have a stable population given a sociatial disposistion towards fratracide, sacrifices, warfare (civil and other) and generally murderous attitudes. I never read where they had a reproduction rate to mass their loss rate. If i missed a 2e box set line where it says "drow breed like rabbits" then so be it. It just failed the logic test that if they bred, and aged like elves how they maintaint that kind of population. As far as I am aware, the only insites into their birth and child rearing is from the novels. We can take the Baner (sp) family as an extremem abnormality, with the Matron mother being 2k'ish years (does not look a day over 1.5K) who produced what 20 children over that life span? That includes the traditional 3rd son sacrifice (yes I know who that is, no need for spoilers) Or, and I shudder bringing it up, the DRizzit family household. Its been a few years since I read it, but I think Matron malice in 6 centuries(?) produced 6 children, one that was ment to be sacrificed (damn 3rd males) but got spared because one offed the other? Maybe common houses reproduce faster, who really knows, I am kinda rambling and belaboring my point.
GothicDan 08-29-06, 05:09 PM	During the editions under which the Drow were developed, they had faster birthrates, but also shorter lifespans. And one could say that it is only the Noble Houses that are subjected to harsh internal predation, but that would be like saying that a country ruled by an anarchic council of CE/NE (Zanan? *Cricket*), with far greater technology (magic) at their command than any commoner could imagine, would be just peachy to live in. Ultimately, it's the government (or lack of it) and other powerful/influential people that decide the fate of a given culture/race.
Zsych 08-29-06, 05:52 PM	Humans weakening? They weakened, i suppose. But that doesn't necessarily mean that the current ones are on the decline(not that they are improving much either) I have great expectations of Thay :) Given a thousand years or so. Looking at our own history... short of some amazing people coming around, mankind doesn't really improve much. The elves with their long lives can at least retain what they have achieved. As for the Chosen... if i was in Elminster's position, i'd be seriously considering following Ioulaum's path.
Krash 08-29-06, 08:38 PM	I've come up with the theory that the humans of the Forgotten Realms have "jumped the shark", so to say, and are in decline hence the ability of other peoples to recarve their niche into the world. If you think about it, the greatest human powers have gone and passed, hundreds if not thousands of years ago. Netheril, Imaskar, Jhaamdath are all gone. Jhaamdath was even able to slaughter nine of ten elves of the Chondalwood who were still using high mahic regularly. In their wake, they leave dozens of small nations, each weaker than any human realm that had existed. Any thoughts? The likely "power" of these ancient realms is exaggerated by the mists of time and the method by which information on these places has been passed down through the ages. Taking your examples one by one: Netheril: reached heights of spellhurling never achieved since by humans. Yet, never conquered large swathes of territory or neighbours such as Eaerlann, Ammarindar, Arcorar etc. A fragmented nation with a two-strata social system (Upper and Lower Netheril), a hamstrung and ineffective central 'government' - and I use the term loosely - and no standing military. Were there many very powerful Netherese individuals? Undoubtedly. Was Netheril a powerful nation? Indications are that it certainly was not. Imaskar: considered to be a nation of 'high' magic-use, early masters of construct and portal magic. Did control large areas of territory (Endless Wastes etc). However, a plague decimated its native population leading them to 'import' other humans (the Mulan) as a lower social caste to maintain social cohesion and serve the ruling elite. This obviously led to eventual revolt and destruction of the realm. I see Imaskar as no more powerful than modern-day Halruaa. Jhaamdath: there is little or no history on this realm. As of 3E, there is a psionic influence established in the realm. They do control lots of territory but given the huge holes in its history, it can't be said that it's a powerful juggernaut ala our real-world Roman Empire. As evidence, the sources note that Unther invades and occupies some of Jhaamdath for a time and it is clear that despite initial successes, Coramshan becomes its equal, at least militarily. I won't burden you with my own thoughts re Jhaamdath, but suffice it to say that I don't think that Jhaamdath was *fanfare*Jhaamdath*fanfare* all of its existence. Oh, and the elves of the Chondalwood certainly did not have a history of High Magic use and it's likely that their final gambit was a move of desperation brought about simply because they lacked the military and magical might to combat Jhaamdath. I consider the elves of the Chondalwood to have been a very weak foe. -- George Krashos
BrennonGoldeye 08-29-06, 09:08 PM	Humans weakening? They weakened, i suppose. But that doesn't necessarily mean that the current ones are on the decline(not that they are improving much either) Agreed, they in fact seem to be on the upswing.They have within their firm grap more landmass, higher population, and greater specialization than at previous highpoints. See George's points above. :bow: As for the Chosen... if i was in Elminster's position, i'd be seriously considering following Ioulaum's path. I believe El would rather live one final lifetime, with one final Lady, and then take his rest and Laurels in peace. :cloud9:
GothicDan 08-30-06, 01:02 AM	Out of all of the 'high-magic' human nations, the only one that I can really truly respect, and the one which I see maintaining a level of prestige and power, is Halruaa.
Bladesong 08-31-06, 03:17 PM	That is if that swamp doesn't drown them eventually.