Hypothetical FR future :) [Archive] - Wizards Community

Hypothetical FR future :) [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Grishnor
07-30-07, 05:11 PM Ok, heres the deal. I got an epic game. Been running it since 3.0 came out and haven't stopped until about 2 years ago. We set down the characters and played something else. Now, we are picking them back up. So I'm having quite a few years pass by. (16 to be exact) That puts my group around 1394ish. They are all level 40ish and very powerful and very evil lol.

When they arrive back to the prime material plane; they will notice the grass is green'er, the sky is blue'er and the wind is crisp'er. The whole plane feels "good" aligned, or at least leaning in that direction.

So they began to gather some information through old contacts, spells, or just power. Heres a list of what I was going to change:

1. Zhentarim has been crushed almost completely, Fzoul is in hiding. Every novel I've ever read, the Zhents get their ass kicked BAD. These guys can only take so many beatings! So, I'm knockin them off. Bane's lost power now.

2. Thay finally went to all out war with Aglarond, and WON. Symbuls dead, Thay has been severely crippled and is trying to secure their borders and rebuild their strength. In short, they are in danger of being takin over cause of their weakened state.

3. The Shade enclave is in an all out war with the Phaerims to recover their "desert" lol. Both have been severely weakened.

4. Myth Drannor is up and running at FULL elven power do to the crusade. (See the Last Mythal trilogy, its a good one!) City of Hope has been populated and running smoothly (See Blackstaff book from "Wizards" anthology) and Evereska has recovered fully from the Netherese/Phaerimm war of 1372. So now, Elven power in the realms is HUGE!

These are the big plot developments I'm going to throw at them when they return. They don't troll these boards so I'de love to hear some feedback and suggestions of everyone about plot and directions they could possibly take.
Lord Karsus
07-30-07, 06:25 PM These are the big plot developments I'm going to throw at them when they return. They don't troll these boards so I'de love to hear some feedback and suggestions of everyone about plot and directions they could possibly take.

-Theoretically, all of those plothooks are are in books like the FRCS can produce interesting and epic stories. I suggest taking a look at a few, and seeing where your imagination leads you.
Alleran
07-31-07, 04:09 AM 2. Thay finally went to all out war with Aglarond, and WON. Symbuls dead, Thay has been severely crippled and is trying to secure their borders and rebuild their strength. In short, they are in danger of being takin over cause of their weakened state.
As I understand it, the Simbul is pretty much the reason why Thay keeps on losing even if they go on an all-out war, so this might need some modification.
Derren S.
07-31-07, 07:20 AM As I understand it, the Simbul is pretty much the reason why Thay keeps on losing even if they go on an all-out war, so this might need some modification.

Why? A possible scenario is that Thay finally managed to kill the Simbul but in the process lost some important wizards and multiple apprentices wanted to claim their positions. When the invasion was finished those wizards, who controlled the invasion army, turned against each other using the rest of the army to fight each other which greatly crippled Thays military strength.
At the same time the allies of them started to fight each other back in Thay and while this civil war was not as serious as what was going on in Aglarond is still damaged the economy before it was crushed by the remaining Zulthirs.

So Thay has lost a great deal of military strength, has a rebellious country to control, a damaged economy (unlikely that they can produce any more magical items to sell for several years, not to mention that they lost many customers when it became known that they killed the Simbul) and still have a leadership issue.

Imo absolutly plausible. You only have to explain why the Simbul doesn't get ressurected. (But why important people are not ressurected is something nearly all FR writers overlook).
Lord Karsus
07-31-07, 08:29 AM Imo absolutly plausible. You only have to explain why the Simbul doesn't get ressurected. (But why important people are not ressurected is something nearly all FR writers overlook).

-Simple enough: Because she doesn't want to leave Mystra's Divine Realm.
Alleran
07-31-07, 09:23 AM Why? A possible scenario is that Thay finally managed to kill the Simbul but in the process lost some important wizards and multiple apprentices wanted to claim their positions.
Well, given how freakishly powerful she's always made out to be (despite her in-game stats not really reflecting it, IMO), I was more thinking along the lines that Thay would end up losing at least a few of their zulkirs in the process of taking her out, something that I at least can't see them risking (as in, the zulkirs not wanting to stick their necks on the line).
Boda
07-31-07, 11:51 AM Shoon allies with runemasters, replaces the syl pasha, takes control of the council of six, and them, both Amn and Calimshan invade Tethyr. Zaranda and family die, and the new shoon impergium is settled.
Derren S.
08-01-07, 09:09 AM Well, given how freakishly powerful she's always made out to be (despite her in-game stats not really reflecting it, IMO), I was more thinking along the lines that Thay would end up losing at least a few of their zulkirs in the process of taking her out, something that I at least can't see them risking (as in, the zulkirs not wanting to stick their necks on the line).

The novel Simbul is only "freaksihly powerfull" because:
1. Its "cool"
2. Shes a good guy.

Personally I despise those "Always better, stronger, more flashy than in the last novel" approach. Looks too much like DBZ to me. So I always use the game version of the NPCs and according to the game stats the Simbul isn't that powerfull.
Alleran
08-01-07, 11:08 AM So I always use the game version of the NPCs and according to the game stats the Simbul isn't that powerfull.
I use the novel versions of characters where there's a discrepancy, myself. That and Ed's comments.
ShadezofDis
08-01-07, 02:32 PM If the Zuklirs could work together then the Symbul would be toast. The reason Thay hasn't won at this point is because they work counter to each other.

The way I could see this playing out is the economic might of Thay really takes off during the 1370's and by the 1380's Tam and his allies are able to take control of the other Zuklirs (through political, economic and magical means, using outside agents to wear them down over time and eventually either eliminating them and placing a puppet in their stead or by controlling them through magic or just straight up fear).

By the mid 1380's Tam puts a plan in motion to distract the Symbul and force her to travel in order to stop various plots (perhaps some of her agents are captured and replaced, causing her to first find out about it, then eliminate the imposters and then find her original agents) while she is travelling the Thayans attack (with land forces) and when she arrives to try and save the day they reveal the true nature of the Zuklir alliance, sending in the naval forces and the air forces while she's attacked by dozens of powerful Red Wizards. Calling upon her vast might the Symbul sacrifices herself in order to destroy the majority of the strike force sent against her but even the Symbul's powers aren't enough to stop a united Thay.

Unfortunately for Thay this was the opportunity Mulhorand had been waiting for, after securing control of Unther and feigning interest in Chessenta (in order to make Thay overconfident) the Mulhorandi forces strike against Thay and an unprepared Thay just barely manages to drive off the Mulhorandi forces, this does, however, leave Thay in a terribly weakened state.

It'd also be interesting to have the . . . I believe it was a Marid but the good aligned genie from Calisham escape imprisonment (unless he was the one "destroyed", in which case I would just say "he wasn't destroyed, he was just ko'd for a few centuries and then started building up his power base again") basically turning Calisham into a good aligned, genie dominated state (and, perhaps, weaking the Twisted Rune considerably)

Anyhow, the Symbul may be mega powerful but there's no way she could stand up to a united Thay.
ShadezofDis
08-01-07, 02:37 PM Shoon allies with runemasters, replaces the syl pasha, takes control of the council of six, and them, both Amn and Calimshan invade Tethyr. Zaranda and family die, and the new shoon impergium is settled.

Ummm. . . the OP really was wanting a more "good aligned" FR rather than a return of evil.

Or at least that's how I read it. :)
Boda
08-01-07, 07:40 PM obviusly the alliance cant last..., and when lots of evil powerful bastards meet...destruction usually follows, crumbling the fleeting impergium and taking the baddies with it!
GothicDan
08-01-07, 07:44 PM The novel Simbul is only "freaksihly powerfull" because:
1. Its "cool"
2. Shes a good guy.

She's "freakishly powerful" because that's the way she was written since the Grey Box, as far as I know. There's no "cool" power creep about it. And she's still Chaotic Neutral.
Derren S.
08-03-07, 07:58 AM She's "freakishly powerful" because that's the way she was written since the Grey Box, as far as I know. There's no "cool" power creep about it. And she's still Chaotic Neutral.

With "freakishly powerful" I meant "shown to be much more powerfull than she actually is". The Simbul has been statted and so she has limits but the novels regulary break those limits. Why? See my answers in the last post. Being powerful is cool and she is good and so has to wipe the floor with the bad guys as they can never win.
ShadezofDis
08-03-07, 09:46 AM With "freakishly powerful" I meant "shown to be much more powerfull than she actually is". The Simbul has been statted and so she has limits but the novels regulary break those limits. Why? See my answers in the last post. Being powerful is cool and she is good and so has to wipe the floor with the bad guys as they can never win.

You are aware that stats can only represent so much right? And, with her vast access to various magic items, hundreds of years to develop enchantments and her likely access of artifacts, it's likely that these things can be explained.

If you are speaking of El in Hell specifically then we may not be aware of all the help she was getting. Remember, the Arch-Devil was trying to unlock the secret of Silver Fire, which would give him a chink in Mystra's armor and potentially could lead to Hell being able to take Mystra's power. That really would be one of the greatest threats to magic on Faerun in history, I would even find it likely that she got some help from someone like Laroch too.

Since we don't know what the original manuscript looked like then we can't really say.
Asgetrion
08-04-07, 12:45 PM With "freakishly powerful" I meant "shown to be much more powerfull than she actually is". The Simbul has been statted and so she has limits but the novels regulary break those limits. Why? See my answers in the last post. Being powerful is cool and she is good and so has to wipe the floor with the bad guys as they can never win.

Yes, she *is* statted, and appears to be Chaotic *NEUTRAL* (not Good). ;)

Otherwise, I think *every* major protagonist in a D&D-related novel 'breaks the rules' at one point or another, because D&D-rules reflect 'realism' quite poorly. For example, just think about a duel between Drizzt and Entreri - if Salvatore had written it the way it would have happened between two (statted) D&D NPCs, it'd would have only depended on the initiative (both would be hitting each other with almost *EVERY* attack). Would that kind of fight be cool in the eyes of a reader?
Lord Karsus
08-04-07, 06:04 PM -For maximum effectiveness, a balance has to be achieved between "D&D Realism" and poetic license.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Grishnor 07-30-07, 05:11 PM	Ok, heres the deal. I got an epic game. Been running it since 3.0 came out and haven't stopped until about 2 years ago. We set down the characters and played something else. Now, we are picking them back up. So I'm having quite a few years pass by. (16 to be exact) That puts my group around 1394ish. They are all level 40ish and very powerful and very evil lol. When they arrive back to the prime material plane; they will notice the grass is green'er, the sky is blue'er and the wind is crisp'er. The whole plane feels "good" aligned, or at least leaning in that direction. So they began to gather some information through old contacts, spells, or just power. Heres a list of what I was going to change: 1. Zhentarim has been crushed almost completely, Fzoul is in hiding. Every novel I've ever read, the Zhents get their ass kicked BAD. These guys can only take so many beatings! So, I'm knockin them off. Bane's lost power now. 2. Thay finally went to all out war with Aglarond, and WON. Symbuls dead, Thay has been severely crippled and is trying to secure their borders and rebuild their strength. In short, they are in danger of being takin over cause of their weakened state. 3. The Shade enclave is in an all out war with the Phaerims to recover their "desert" lol. Both have been severely weakened. 4. Myth Drannor is up and running at FULL elven power do to the crusade. (See the Last Mythal trilogy, its a good one!) City of Hope has been populated and running smoothly (See Blackstaff book from "Wizards" anthology) and Evereska has recovered fully from the Netherese/Phaerimm war of 1372. So now, Elven power in the realms is HUGE! These are the big plot developments I'm going to throw at them when they return. They don't troll these boards so I'de love to hear some feedback and suggestions of everyone about plot and directions they could possibly take.
Lord Karsus 07-30-07, 06:25 PM	These are the big plot developments I'm going to throw at them when they return. They don't troll these boards so I'de love to hear some feedback and suggestions of everyone about plot and directions they could possibly take. -Theoretically, all of those plothooks are are in books like the FRCS can produce interesting and epic stories. I suggest taking a look at a few, and seeing where your imagination leads you.
Alleran 07-31-07, 04:09 AM	2. Thay finally went to all out war with Aglarond, and WON. Symbuls dead, Thay has been severely crippled and is trying to secure their borders and rebuild their strength. In short, they are in danger of being takin over cause of their weakened state. As I understand it, the Simbul is pretty much the reason why Thay keeps on losing even if they go on an all-out war, so this might need some modification.
Derren S. 07-31-07, 07:20 AM	As I understand it, the Simbul is pretty much the reason why Thay keeps on losing even if they go on an all-out war, so this might need some modification. Why? A possible scenario is that Thay finally managed to kill the Simbul but in the process lost some important wizards and multiple apprentices wanted to claim their positions. When the invasion was finished those wizards, who controlled the invasion army, turned against each other using the rest of the army to fight each other which greatly crippled Thays military strength. At the same time the allies of them started to fight each other back in Thay and while this civil war was not as serious as what was going on in Aglarond is still damaged the economy before it was crushed by the remaining Zulthirs. So Thay has lost a great deal of military strength, has a rebellious country to control, a damaged economy (unlikely that they can produce any more magical items to sell for several years, not to mention that they lost many customers when it became known that they killed the Simbul) and still have a leadership issue. Imo absolutly plausible. You only have to explain why the Simbul doesn't get ressurected. (But why important people are not ressurected is something nearly all FR writers overlook).
Lord Karsus 07-31-07, 08:29 AM	Imo absolutly plausible. You only have to explain why the Simbul doesn't get ressurected. (But why important people are not ressurected is something nearly all FR writers overlook). -Simple enough: Because she doesn't want to leave Mystra's Divine Realm.
Alleran 07-31-07, 09:23 AM	Why? A possible scenario is that Thay finally managed to kill the Simbul but in the process lost some important wizards and multiple apprentices wanted to claim their positions. Well, given how freakishly powerful she's always made out to be (despite her in-game stats not really reflecting it, IMO), I was more thinking along the lines that Thay would end up losing at least a few of their zulkirs in the process of taking her out, something that I at least can't see them risking (as in, the zulkirs not wanting to stick their necks on the line).
Boda 07-31-07, 11:51 AM	Shoon allies with runemasters, replaces the syl pasha, takes control of the council of six, and them, both Amn and Calimshan invade Tethyr. Zaranda and family die, and the new shoon impergium is settled.
Derren S. 08-01-07, 09:09 AM	Well, given how freakishly powerful she's always made out to be (despite her in-game stats not really reflecting it, IMO), I was more thinking along the lines that Thay would end up losing at least a few of their zulkirs in the process of taking her out, something that I at least can't see them risking (as in, the zulkirs not wanting to stick their necks on the line). The novel Simbul is only "freaksihly powerfull" because: 1. Its "cool" 2. Shes a good guy. Personally I despise those "Always better, stronger, more flashy than in the last novel" approach. Looks too much like DBZ to me. So I always use the game version of the NPCs and according to the game stats the Simbul isn't that powerfull.
Alleran 08-01-07, 11:08 AM	So I always use the game version of the NPCs and according to the game stats the Simbul isn't that powerfull. I use the novel versions of characters where there's a discrepancy, myself. That and Ed's comments.
ShadezofDis 08-01-07, 02:32 PM	If the Zuklirs could work together then the Symbul would be toast. The reason Thay hasn't won at this point is because they work counter to each other. The way I could see this playing out is the economic might of Thay really takes off during the 1370's and by the 1380's Tam and his allies are able to take control of the other Zuklirs (through political, economic and magical means, using outside agents to wear them down over time and eventually either eliminating them and placing a puppet in their stead or by controlling them through magic or just straight up fear). By the mid 1380's Tam puts a plan in motion to distract the Symbul and force her to travel in order to stop various plots (perhaps some of her agents are captured and replaced, causing her to first find out about it, then eliminate the imposters and then find her original agents) while she is travelling the Thayans attack (with land forces) and when she arrives to try and save the day they reveal the true nature of the Zuklir alliance, sending in the naval forces and the air forces while she's attacked by dozens of powerful Red Wizards. Calling upon her vast might the Symbul sacrifices herself in order to destroy the majority of the strike force sent against her but even the Symbul's powers aren't enough to stop a united Thay. Unfortunately for Thay this was the opportunity Mulhorand had been waiting for, after securing control of Unther and feigning interest in Chessenta (in order to make Thay overconfident) the Mulhorandi forces strike against Thay and an unprepared Thay just barely manages to drive off the Mulhorandi forces, this does, however, leave Thay in a terribly weakened state. It'd also be interesting to have the . . . I believe it was a Marid but the good aligned genie from Calisham escape imprisonment (unless he was the one "destroyed", in which case I would just say "he wasn't destroyed, he was just ko'd for a few centuries and then started building up his power base again") basically turning Calisham into a good aligned, genie dominated state (and, perhaps, weaking the Twisted Rune considerably) Anyhow, the Symbul may be mega powerful but there's no way she could stand up to a united Thay.
ShadezofDis 08-01-07, 02:37 PM	Shoon allies with runemasters, replaces the syl pasha, takes control of the council of six, and them, both Amn and Calimshan invade Tethyr. Zaranda and family die, and the new shoon impergium is settled. Ummm. . . the OP really was wanting a more "good aligned" FR rather than a return of evil. Or at least that's how I read it. :)
Boda 08-01-07, 07:40 PM	obviusly the alliance cant last..., and when lots of evil powerful bastards meet...destruction usually follows, crumbling the fleeting impergium and taking the baddies with it!
GothicDan 08-01-07, 07:44 PM	The novel Simbul is only "freaksihly powerfull" because: 1. Its "cool" 2. Shes a good guy. She's "freakishly powerful" because that's the way she was written since the Grey Box, as far as I know. There's no "cool" power creep about it. And she's still Chaotic Neutral.
Derren S. 08-03-07, 07:58 AM	She's "freakishly powerful" because that's the way she was written since the Grey Box, as far as I know. There's no "cool" power creep about it. And she's still Chaotic Neutral. With "freakishly powerful" I meant "shown to be much more powerfull than she actually is". The Simbul has been statted and so she has limits but the novels regulary break those limits. Why? See my answers in the last post. Being powerful is cool and she is good and so has to wipe the floor with the bad guys as they can never win.
ShadezofDis 08-03-07, 09:46 AM	With "freakishly powerful" I meant "shown to be much more powerfull than she actually is". The Simbul has been statted and so she has limits but the novels regulary break those limits. Why? See my answers in the last post. Being powerful is cool and she is good and so has to wipe the floor with the bad guys as they can never win. You are aware that stats can only represent so much right? And, with her vast access to various magic items, hundreds of years to develop enchantments and her likely access of artifacts, it's likely that these things can be explained. If you are speaking of El in Hell specifically then we may not be aware of all the help she was getting. Remember, the Arch-Devil was trying to unlock the secret of Silver Fire, which would give him a chink in Mystra's armor and potentially could lead to Hell being able to take Mystra's power. That really would be one of the greatest threats to magic on Faerun in history, I would even find it likely that she got some help from someone like Laroch too. Since we don't know what the original manuscript looked like then we can't really say.
Asgetrion 08-04-07, 12:45 PM	With "freakishly powerful" I meant "shown to be much more powerfull than she actually is". The Simbul has been statted and so she has limits but the novels regulary break those limits. Why? See my answers in the last post. Being powerful is cool and she is good and so has to wipe the floor with the bad guys as they can never win. Yes, she is statted, and appears to be Chaotic NEUTRAL (not Good). ;) Otherwise, I think every major protagonist in a D&D-related novel 'breaks the rules' at one point or another, because D&D-rules reflect 'realism' quite poorly. For example, just think about a duel between Drizzt and Entreri - if Salvatore had written it the way it would have happened between two (statted) D&D NPCs, it'd would have only depended on the initiative (both would be hitting each other with almost EVERY attack). Would that kind of fight be cool in the eyes of a reader?
Lord Karsus 08-04-07, 06:04 PM	-For maximum effectiveness, a balance has to be achieved between "D&D Realism" and poetic license.