Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Rechan 08-07-07, 03:45 PM	I post this here because the Underdark and the Drow are/were made more popular by FR, and they are a distinct aspect of FR's gameworld. That, and the Drow have had a long history of being uppidy. So, here's the situation: The Drow, be it Menzoberranzan, Ched Nasad or some other city, decides to do something very, very gutsy. They're going to invade, conquer, and occupy somewhere on the surface. It doesn't have to necessarily be a full country, but it certainly would have a human (or other race) population. It could be somewhere in the Dalelands, and so on. The specific location isn't important. The question: How would they execute this? While I do not ignore that part of this answer is the actual Invasion and the Conquering of the area in question, but the real challenge as I see it would be Occupying their conquered territory. How do you think the Drow would retain the area that they conquer, from repelling retaliatory armies, to simple day to day management of the humanoids of the area?
Grimgnaw 08-07-07, 04:25 PM	Send up an army, kill all the possible soldiers, and take everyone else back with them as slaves. That would be my guess.
Rechan 08-07-07, 04:35 PM	Send up an army, kill all the possible soldiers, and take everyone else back with them as slaves. That would be my guess. No no, I said occupation. As in, they come up, they conquer, and they stay on the surface.
Wanzerfan 08-07-07, 06:05 PM	Already been done. The Drow (House Jaelre specifically) have already started invading the surface of Faerun in the forest of Cormanthor. Details are on page 125 of the 2nd. printing of the Forgotten Realms Campaign book.
Rechan 08-07-07, 06:16 PM	Already been done. The Drow (House Jaelre specifically) have already started invading the surface of Faerun in the forest of Cormanthor. Details are on page 125 of the 2nd. printing of the Forgotten Realms Campaign book. That's the forest, though. I'm talking about pretty much invading and taking over cities and towns, like any other invading army from another country.
Eli_the_Tanner 08-07-07, 06:59 PM	It has been done before though, twice that I can think of. The Drow conquered Dambrath and became the rulers of the land. Over the centuries they slowly retreated back underground(Drow get sunburnt easily) but they still have extensive power and influence on the surface. Dambrath is governed by their half-drow offspring who in turn obey the drow. In the Dalelands the drow of Maerimydra conquered Shadowdale. This country (of sorts) became known as the Lands Under Shadow, I think that why it is named Shadowdale[please correct me if I'm mistaken]. They ruled these lands for about two centuries. Unfortunally they were unable to keep these lands and were forced back underground about 500 years ago.
Rechan 08-07-07, 07:07 PM	It has been done before though, twice that I can think of. The Drow conquered Dambrath and became the rulers of the land. Over the centuries they slowly retreated back underground(Drow get sunburnt easily) but they still have extensive power and influence on the surface. Dambrath is governed by their half-drow offspring who in turn obey the drow. In the Dalelands the drow of Maerimydra conquered Shadowdale. This country (of sorts) became known as the Lands Under Shadow, I think that why it is named Shadowdale[please correct me if I'm mistaken]. They ruled these lands for about two centuries. Unfortunally they were unable to keep these lands and were forced back underground about 500 years ago. Wow. I never heard of this at all. I'm floating a campaign idea where basically the Drow conquer a country-sized area, occupy it, and use some powerful magic to turn the area within their borders Eternally Night.
Thinblade 08-07-07, 09:08 PM	Check out the 2e source Cormanthyr. Cormanthor (later Myth Drannor) was engaged in a running war for centuries with the drow based out of the Twisted Tower (which the drow built as their surface stronghold). The drow came up, got forced back, came back up a couple centuries later, and then were finally forced out for good. I think drow would occupy an area in much the same way dwarves do: build combination underground/above ground fortresses (think Citadel Adbar) where they can sleep during the day and patrol at night. Some unlucky males would draw day time scout duty, but I'd guess that'd be primarily to find threats and track them until nightfall.
Rechan 08-07-07, 09:20 PM	I think drow would occupy an area in much the same way dwarves do: build combination underground/above ground fortresses (think Citadel Adbar) where they can sleep during the day and patrol at night. Some unlucky males would draw day time scout duty, but I'd guess that'd be primarily to find threats and track them until nightfall. So you don't think they'd overtake cities and pretty much put everyone there to work? After all, there is a reason to go to the surface: resources and expansion. It's a lot of hassle to just go to the surface for war and slaughter.
Thinblade 08-07-07, 10:43 PM	The drow wouldn't expand to the surface for "resources or expansion." To expand, you need to have filled where you are to start, and they haven't. The drow are much more likely to wage a war of expansion underground. It's closer, they have all of their advantages and none of their disadvantages working for them. They know the terrain, and they have had more recent contact with the species (means both that they know how to fight them, and that they hate them more) surrounding them. Plus, pretty much anything the drow need can be found underground. The surface has some exotic stuff (like strange foods, and wood), but nothing they desperately need. Being underground, they already have access to much that has caused wars on earth (access to natural resources of various kinds). Dambrath was conquered in retaliation for an attack launched by the humans. It was sort of a spur-of-the-moment fluke. The humans reached the drow city and did enough damage to temporarily unite the drow, and in return, the drow chased them all the way back to their homes and enslaved them. But most of the drow quickly went back below the surface, leaving their half-drow offspring to rule in their stead.
MarkusTay63 08-07-07, 10:52 PM	Also, Bregan D'aerthe controls Calimshan's underworld at this point, and has extensive surface holdings within that country now. In Dambrath, Drow STILL walk about in the open, they have just become rarer since the Crinti/church of Loviatar started running things. There is a surface kindom in the Mir forest as well, although they lost their capitol awhile back. They don't attack surface nations though, they just want to be left alone. Also, there is a region in Zakhara called Akota that has little to no coverage in canon material. However, it is known that Drow are active in the vicinity, and the people from there are 'different' then other Zakharans. If you hang around Al-Qadim sites, you'd know that most fans of that setting have come to accept Akota as either a nation of Dark Elves, or at the very least are allied with dark Elves (who are welcome in the city). Think of it as the Dambrath of the deep south. ;) Drow don't always live underground, thats just a hold-over from the Greyhawk days.
Rechan 08-07-07, 10:57 PM	The drow wouldn't expand to the surface for "resources or expansion." To expand, you need to have filled where you are to start, and they haven't. The drow are much more likely to wage a war of expansion underground. It's closer, they have all of their advantages and none of their disadvantages working for them. They know the terrain, and they have had more recent contact with the species (means both that they know how to fight them, and that they hate them more) surrounding them. Plus, pretty much anything the drow need can be found underground. The surface has some exotic stuff (like strange foods, and wood), but nothing they desperately need. Being underground, they already have access to much that has caused wars on earth (access to natural resources of various kinds). I still think there are useful things on the surface for the Drow. I've worked out my own reasons, but I am seeing how others would handle the execution if they were running the scenario.
Rechan 08-07-07, 11:00 PM	Also, Bregan D'aerthe controls Calimshan's underworld at this point, and has extensive surface holdings within that country now. In Dambrath, Drow STILL walk about in the open, they have just become rarer since the Crinti/church of Loviatar started running things. There is a surface kindom in the Mir forest as well, although they lost their capitol awhile back. They don't attack surface nations though, they just want to be left alone. Also, there is a region in Zakhara called Akota that has little to no coverage in canon material. However, it is known that Drow are active in the vicinity, and the people from there are 'different' then other Zakharans. If you hang around Al-Qadim sites, you'd know that most fans of that setting have come to accept Akota as either a nation of Dark Elves, or at the very least are allied with dark Elves (who are welcome in the city). Think of it as the Dambrath of the deep south. ;) Drow don't always live underground, thats just a hold-over from the Greyhawk days. Hm. That's a little useful, thanks. :) Dambrath sounds interesting. Also, Bregan D'aerthe - this is not the drow Mercenary leader, Entrari's associate? It's been Forever since I read The Servant of the Shard. Also, yeesh. I havn't heard of any of these places.
Alleran 08-07-07, 11:51 PM	Also, Bregan D'aerthe - this is not the drow Mercenary leader, Entrari's associate? It's nominally led by Jarlaxle, though Kimmuriel Oblodra does the day-to-day business of running the outfit, IIRC.
Thinblade 08-08-07, 12:27 AM	If you want to have the drow attack the surface, that's fine, as long as you can justify it in your campaign. And the eternal night thing isn't a bad idea, other drow did the same thing when they created enclaves in the Sea of Fallen Stars (check the accessory of the same name). A couple of comments: I'm not sure exactly how much control Bregan D'aerthe has over Calimport's crime. They'd certainly try, but there are an number of entrenched interests there already. For instance, the ruler of Calimshan controls most of the local crime, either directly or through proxies, and he wouldn't exactly be happy to have drow intrude. My best guess is that Bregan D'aerthe's appearance sparked a crime war. That'd be lots of fun to run. And I never said the drow completely abandoned Dambrath. In fact, I said that only most of the drow left. However, most of the positions of power are Crinti, and most of the drow in the nation are males either as consorts or in the army. Places like Mir are usually exiles (same of the drow in Cormanthor) who have taken over places no one else wants. A few may want to take on their neighbors, but they don't generally have the numbers or resources.
GothicDan 08-08-07, 12:55 AM	The Drow's basic aversion to sunlight would make the occupation of any actual large, urbanized realm nigh impossible. To cast the sort of spell you're talking about would take massive Epic magic, and would almost certainly result in a crusade by some of the most powerful churches in Faerun and beyond - the Elves, Lathander, Shar, etc. Evil in the Realms that succeeds is that which is subtle, much like in real life.
MarkusTay63 08-08-07, 04:59 AM	Go to Lantan and buy 10,000 pairs of sunglasses. Yeesh. ;)
Panurg 08-08-07, 06:23 AM	As long as RAS writes the novels about Drow, there will be no such thing as conquering a Realm of the surface for them. :P I mean one of the mightiest Drow Cities with a priestess with near Chosen Status and more than two Weapon Masters of level 20+ didn't even succeed in taking over a Dwarven City led by a 12th level Fighter. Come on. :rolleye2:
GothicDan 08-08-07, 09:22 PM	The only Drow Weaponsmaster to date that was 20th+ was Zaknafein, I believe (24th level fighter in 2e).
Rechan 08-08-07, 09:38 PM	To cast the sort of spell you're talking about would take massive Epic magic, and would almost certainly result in a crusade by some of the most powerful churches in Faerun and beyond - the Elves, Lathander, Shar, etc. Hey, if the elves of Myth Dannor can pull off such high elven magic, and the Shades pop their flying cities back into the Realms, and other Dues Ex Machina, it's not out of the realm of possibility. And even if it would result in a Crusade, if the Drow were justified in their actions (Namely: they were attacked first), there would possibly be enough political power exerted to stop the crusade. But I won't be running full-on Lolth loving Drow. I was asking here as it was the most likely place I'd get the logistics from.
Thinblade 08-08-07, 11:04 PM	Stop the crusade? No. The only reason Dambrath actually worked is that its mightiest neighbor, Halruaa, is intensely isolationist, and the area is well off the beaten path (same reason Veldorn is in the same area). If the drow came up in sufficient force and organization to threaten, or even worse, conquer a significant city or large area of countryside, the response would be immidiate and fierce. I actually think Seige of Darkness does a good job of illustrating just what a drow invasion would look like, and why it ultimately wouldn't work. All of the cities and towns around Mithral Hall, normally trading rivals who keep to themselves, banded together with the dwarves, and the distrustful drow themselves made a lengthy campaign impossible. Another good example is the Tuigan Horde. The threat of the horde got Cormyr, Sembia, all the Dales, AND Zhentil Keep fighting on the same side. It even got dwarves and orcs fighting together. That's the sort of alliances you'd start to see if the drow invaded in force in a populous area. Now, don't get me wrong, the campaign could be a lot of fun: adventurers running the equivalent of the French Resistance in the occupied city, guerilla warfare on both sides in the country, attempts to destabilize the drow force and set one faction to killing another, and diplomatic missions between the budding surface allies. It's got pretty much everything. The drawback is that it's an incredibly unlikely scenario, and even if the drow pulled off the initial conquest, the chances of their remaining on the surface for a couple of months, let alone years, are extremely remote.
Rechan 08-08-07, 11:19 PM	Now, don't get me wrong, the campaign could be a lot of fun: adventurers running the equivalent of the French Resistance in the occupied city, guerilla warfare on both sides in the country, attempts to destabilize the drow force and set one faction to killing another, and diplomatic missions between the budding surface allies. It's got pretty much everything. The drawback is that it's an incredibly unlikely scenario, and even if the drow pulled off the initial conquest, the chances of their remaining on the surface for a couple of months, let alone years, are extremely remote. Actually no, when I execute this I intend for it to have occurred after the wars and subsequent resistence, where the Drow won and everyone signs the appropriate treaties giving them the area. So it wouldn't be a guerilla war, it would be set in the political and social ramifications after the fact. Among other things I'm using the Drow to simulate a Cold War backdrop for the campaign setting, and one of the cities functioning like Berlin, carved up among various foreign powers.
GothicDan 08-08-07, 11:21 PM	Hey, if the elves of Myth Dannor can pull off such high elven magic, and the Shades pop their flying cities back into the Realms, and other Dues Ex Machina, it's not out of the realm of possibility. Nothing is impossible. Of course, I ignore the events of the Archwizards trilogy for numerous reasons, so citing that particular event to try to counter my point is pretty much futile. As to the Elves of Myth Drannor... Well, the greatest work of Elven High Magic they used in canon was the raising of their Mythal. That happened thousands of years ago, and thus far the Drow just do not have the same arcane might (printed, mind you - I'm basing all of my discussions off of what is printed). There was only a handful of Epic Drow casters throughout all products, and all of them scattered among different, un-allied cities. And there's the fact that the Drow casting such a huge Darkness spell is a direct violation against the portfolio of several massively powerful deities (Lathander and Selune, and Shar would grow jealous). [And the only Drow deity with jurisdiction in the Realms Above, directly, is Vhaeraun.] And even if it would result in a Crusade, if the Drow were justified in their actions (Namely: they were attacked first), there would possibly be enough political power exerted to stop the crusade. Who would exert such political power? The Drow have no allies on the surface. Even if some people believed the "We were attacked first" excuse, the rest of the people would think, "Well, yeah, so what? You're Drow." The Drow on the surface are the stuff of nightmares - they're not individuals. In the modern day, the word "Nazi" is seen like a curse, the most vile personification of evil we can conjure in the minds of many. Imagine that sort of emotional response multiplied by about ten, and that's how the Drow are seen. But I won't be running full-on Lolth loving Drow. I was asking here as it was the most likely place I'd get the logistics from. Remember that logistics includes the negatives, too. You have to figure out why it WOULDN'T work before you can decide how it WOULD, and then change tactics accordingly.
Eli_the_Tanner 08-08-07, 11:48 PM	Any invasion by the drow onto the surface would, as expected, fit with their normal tactics. Subtle and swift, the drow would have no interest in a drawn-out conflict with large armies clashing on battlefield. Infiltration and subterfuge are the tools of the drow when it comes to warfare. Takng over a country would require mass, simultaneous assassinations, decimation of the military and followed up by suppressive show of force i.e. your eternal night idea. The can be no retaliation, no fight just death and victory for the drow....see Jarlaxle and Bregan D'earthe's take over of Calimport or a drow house coup as an example of how deadly the demise of the drow's enemies must be - no survivors. Zanan will probably catch whiff of this thread and show us all how a dark elf gets things done.
Stigger 08-09-07, 03:54 AM	Sounds about right to me Eli... not much to add after that one.
Panurg 08-09-07, 07:02 AM	The only Drow Weaponsmaster to date that was 20th+ was Zaknafein, I believe (24th level fighter in 2e). Wrong. The guy with the Triton (Uthegentel Armgo?) was 21 if I remember correctly, and the other one of house Baenre was at least 18th level, which isn't 20+ you are right, but which is a lot more than level 12 (Bruenor), 9 (Wulfgar) or 16 (Drizzt).
Wanzerfan 08-09-07, 10:07 AM	The Drow's basic aversion to sunlight would make the occupation of any actual large, urbanized realm nigh impossible. To cast the sort of spell you're talking about would take massive Epic magic, and would almost certainly result in a crusade by some of the most powerful churches in Faerun and beyond - the Elves, Lathander, Shar, etc. Evil in the Realms that succeeds is that which is subtle, much like in real life. Actually Shar would welcome that type of spell (and eternal Darkness one), just to torque off her sister Selune.
GothicDan 08-09-07, 02:00 PM	The guy with the Triton (Uthegentel Armgo?) was 21 if I remember correctly, and the other one of house Baenre was at least 18th level, which isn't 20+ you are right, but which is a lot more than level 12 (Bruenor), 9 (Wulfgar) or 16 (Drizzt). So I was right with the latter (where the heck did Drizzt and Co. come into this discussion?). Can you give any citations as to Uthegentel's level? Actually Shar would welcome that type of spell (and eternal Darkness one), just to torque off her sister Selune. Any action done that promotes a deity's portfolio in another's name gives worship to that deity. Unless they're doing it in Shar's name, she would be highly offended and retributive.
Stigger 08-10-07, 04:21 AM	Arguable there Dan, but I'd tend to agree with you really.
Panurg 08-10-07, 06:37 AM	You can find Uthengental in 2ed Menzzoberanzan Boxed Set p24., he is lvl20. Dantrag Baenre is the other one I ment he is 18th lvl. And I just wanted to make clear that as long as certain standards for differences between "ordinairy" Drow and heroes exist, there is no way of Drow ever ruling cities on the surface, that is the heck why. ;) (Dambrath is a hell of a nice campaign region, but it is more or less ruled by crinti and not by drow, so it's not the best example for a surpreme drow rulership.)
GothicDan 08-10-07, 02:53 PM	Good to know I was right. ;)
Calmar 08-10-07, 05:15 PM	I'd say: Phase 1: Scry and spy. Find the enemy's weaknesses, locate a suitable position for phase 2 (an easily defensible area) and gather information for phase 3. Optional: Ally with local corrupt humans, to increase your power/decrease possible resistance. Make promises you are not going to keep. Phase 2: Establish a bridgehead. A stronghold, maybe similar to the Twisted Tower where a portal is created to move large forces to the surface and to supply them. If possible, cast an overland spell to create a cloak of darkness/ shorten daytime/ something similar (After all, having cleric and wizard as favored classes *should* prove useful sometimes). Optional: Ally with local orcs and goblins, to increase your power. Make promises you are not going to keep. Phase 3: Crush the human opposition! ;)
1 ton ghost 08-11-07, 03:48 PM	they wouldn't. given their CE tendencies, eventually they would fall to infighting, someone would try and seize power, etc., and it would be ultimately exploited by anatgonists this is why they haven't taken over toril. they are incredibly powerful, very dangerous, but working together for an extended period is almost unheard of. worst enemy of a drow is another drow. kinda' like orcs. even Dambrath, they "conveniently" left vassals in charge. and to think, how many soldiers have Daylight Adaptation? even with all their slaves and so on, c'mon... they would probably do extensive recon and they're great at that, some probing raids, then Gate in a ton of demons like Bligdenstone (why waste soldiers when you can send slaves/servants?) and annhilate everything in their foolishness: this would make gathering natural resources difficult and occupation hard too. look at iraq. the US is great, undisputed leader...on the offense. now, we're policemen and things aren't so good. Drow usually war for attrition, not territory which makes it even scarier; more allies would come to fight them. still, Shadowdale and Dambrath might serve as jump points to expand some power/land. it's just the daylight problem from a tactical sense. someone might take the mind flayer approach and find a way to darken the land. problem then is all the vegetation dies, no surface food stuffs, famine, no ppl to reign over and tax, etc...
Thinblade 08-11-07, 06:06 PM	That's a good point about the darkness. Aside from the utter unreality of its being able to be successfully created and maintained, it would very quickly destroy the entire area it covered. Which would make it appropriate for a "poetic vengeance" killing, but little else. It worked in Seros because it was a completely different environment.