I am not buying 4ED [Archive] - Wizards Community

I am not buying 4ED [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Beaver
08-21-07, 01:57 PM I am not buying any 4ED book, I refuse.

I find that 4th is nothing more then a marketing ploy. Remember, it offers more simple rules and better pictures. Just what every D&D fan wants.

Is it just me, or does everyone else think that they do not have to simplify the rules?

My group have had this discussion, Wizards is attempting to turn D&D into magic the gathering....In the way that a new edition comes out every few years ...and they want us to think we have to have the newest edition to be 'official'.

Regardless, we started our realms DR 1372 and we have made our own history from there. It is now 1416, and we disregard all new Forgotten Realms info completely...as we took their world and made it our own....

Am I crazy for not buying into 4th?
Victor_Ograygor
08-21-07, 02:15 PM You are not crazy Beaver, but be patient and let use see how bad it really is.

I understand you and I also think that its crazy with a new edition

Vic :)
The ShapeLess One
08-21-07, 02:15 PM The rules are as simple as they can possibly be. I don't understand how anyone can have trouble with them.
I don't even care for the d20 rule set. So I get the FR books I want then convert them to my favored system.

Buy it or don't, it will still becoming out. No amount of protest will ever change what WotC wants to do.

I have PMED you check it.
MarkusTay63
08-21-07, 03:28 PM Look at the bright side, WotC is saving people a TON of money.

3e is officially over, so if you have all the books and don't need a new system, then you're done. You need never to make another single purchase again.

Pretty nice of them, I must say. ;)
ShadezofDis
08-21-07, 04:59 PM Nice Markus. :)

I'm going to take a long look at them when they come out. I'm annoyed that they've decided to change the rules system (in quite the extreme manner if what they say is accurate) but that wouldn't invalidate the lore, I'm just hoping the lore isn't stupid. I'll be very, very mad if the lore is stupid.
Bonzai
08-21-07, 08:18 PM At this point, I am not buying another 3.5 book (with perhaps the exception of the grand history of the realms). From here on out I will wait till 4.0 comes out, and make an informed decision. Though the last time a company did this to me (white wolf), they lost me as a paying customer.
Meldread
08-21-07, 08:31 PM Most of my concern is with the Lore. The system change sounds interesting, but to be honest I've grown to dislike the D&D System. It focuses too much on combat which in turn creates a whole set of problems. It leads to PC's more likely to solve situations with violence than with intelligence. It leads to more roll-playing than role-playing. I'm not a dungeon crawler. I'm someone who enjoys telling a cooperative story and having interesting plots involving politics and religion. I would like to have characters in my group who do not have to concern themselves about surviving in combat but at the same time be just as viable. I would like to play games where people do not feel the need to MIN/MAX their characters to make them the most effective.

Thankfully, since the 4E FR books will be mostly fluff (something I am very happy about) I may buy them and switch to a new system. Or better yet make my own.
Beaver
08-21-07, 08:47 PM I like the point about not buying anymore books at all when 3.5 is done. That is somewhat reassuring.

But, I guess I feel somewhat betrayed as a player? As lame as that sounds...I think that they should not of even released 3.5 if they had intentions of doing this.

I mean, after all the money I and others have pumped into the game, they 'revolutionize' it.....

I understand its all about making money, but...

I digress....

And when they want to give more power to the race of a creature....

If you think about it, race matters the first 5 levels or so...it helps your character develop. After that, its true it gets lost in the muck. But, for good reason. Whatever race you come from doesnt matter when your an 20lvl Wizard....your still powerful and you rely on your spells above anything.

I see no reason to change it...

Also....the system is what you make of it. The DM along with the players determine how much roleplaying goes on...

I have had hack and slash games, and I have had games where you spend hours roleplaying. I like both, the combination is good.
Meldread
08-21-07, 09:33 PM Well I just hate the way power scales in D&D. I want something that feels more realistic. I am not as interested in Uber High Fantasy as I once was mostly because in the end everything gets somewhat cartoony. I try and make the game as realistic as possible, but in the end the system simply makes that unfeasible. You end up with uber powered characters eventually that are out of scale with the rest of the world.

In truth I am already dabbling with the idea of designing my own system from the ground up. I began dabbling the day I heard 4E was coming out and began to put some earnest thoughts into it once I heard the Realm's books were mostly going to focus on the fluff. I am leaning toward getting rid of levels entirely (which helps when it comes to scaling issues) and instead going with something skill based, and using a bell curve when rolling dice to get more average rolls closer to ones skill than the wide range currently experienced with d20.

So unless they really knock my socks off with 4E I doubt I'll be using it, and if they don't live up to my expectations with the Realm's I may abandon that for a setting of my own creation.

Besides, the problem with WotC is that their system of generating revenue is unsustainable. Eventually there will be a 5E, a 6E, a 7E, etc. until the next best thing comes along.
Muddman
08-21-07, 10:08 PM Oops, see my answer below :)
Muddman
08-21-07, 10:08 PM I say you have to wait and see. Alot of people (myself included) have started to dislike the 3.5 rule system. Its better than 2nd edition, but thats not saying much.

I think they really need to stream line things, not simplify, streamline. Get rid of all the kinds of actions and concentrate on whats important.

So far, what they've released sounds interesting. Abilities based on weapons sounds like great fun as does the idea that every class level is important and exciting. Check out the latest Star Wars RPG to see how they really improved things by making each and every level something to look forward to.

I truely believe that they are trying to improve the system, not simply make a grab at more cash.

And like someone said, if it sucks ignore it and enjoy the 3.5 books :)
selunatic2397
08-21-07, 10:17 PM Since my campaign is first edition, I won't be buying 4ED either...my gamers just laughed when I told them 4ED was coming and asked if that map of mystery in the last Dungeon was showing up on Friday...
MarkusTay63
08-21-07, 10:43 PM I just read we're getting the indexes back! :D

That alone is worth a new edition... to me, anyways

Seriously, we on THIS board are FR enthusiasts first, gamers second. I wouldn't worry about what systems of rules to use - they all work. It's the DM that makes things fun, and a good one can do that even without rules (as Ed did for years).

What WE should be focusing on is the new attention that FR is getting, weather you like the changes or not, we ARE getting some well deserved attention.

They might be getting rid of Gnomes! They were like a 'poor man's' halfling/Dwarf crossbreed, with a big nose and a pentient for blowing things up!

Good riddance I say!

Seriously, play with whatever rules you like (and Meldread, you need to look into Runequest, a leveless system WAY ahead of it's time), but don't dis FR. There is going to be a LOT of new lore coming down the pipe with 4e, so at least try to have a positive outlook. ;)
Meldread
08-21-07, 10:54 PM I agree with you Markus, at least when it comes to FR. I have a rather positive outlook with a mix of rational skepticism. I eagerly await to see what they've done, because in all honesty I don't think they could make things that much worse at this point. :P Eventually you just hit rock bottom and there is nowhere else to go but up!

I'm excited to say the least.
Razz
08-22-07, 12:20 AM I am not buying any 4ED book, I refuse.

I find that 4th is nothing more then a marketing ploy. Remember, it offers more simple rules and better pictures. Just what every D&D fan wants.

Is it just me, or does everyone else think that they do not have to simplify the rules?

My group have had this discussion, Wizards is attempting to turn D&D into magic the gathering....In the way that a new edition comes out every few years ...and they want us to think we have to have the newest edition to be 'official'.

Regardless, we started our realms DR 1372 and we have made our own history from there. It is now 1416, and we disregard all new Forgotten Realms info completely...as we took their world and made it our own....

Am I crazy for not buying into 4th?

I agree with you, my friend. It is just a marketing ploy and I don't agree with this stupid bold-faced lie of an emphasis on 4E:

"Faster gameplay and less complexity in the rules"

That was what they said 3E was supposed to be...and it is!

What the hell is 5E gonna be? Even faster gameplay and complexity?

I wouldn't be surprised if 6E is just an MMORPG of D&D.....cause it'll be that blindingly fast!
Dark Wizard
08-22-07, 12:27 AM Yeah, just the sound of spell level 25 shows me they're replacing one set of complexity for another.

Since I psionic as well as an accomplished magician, I predict 7E will just consist of quick shots of enriched cocaine injected into our bloodstreams at regular intervals with morsel of nano-etched Realmslore on each molecule. For a standard subscription service fee of $19.95 a month plus a down payment of our brain. Something must sustain Gleemax. It's a mindflayer conspiracy right out of the mad, mad Far Realms.
Razz
08-22-07, 12:38 AM I mean, after all the money I and others have pumped into the game, they 'revolutionize' it.....

.

I'm just tired of the "revolutionizing". How many times are they gonna do it? The line has to be drawn somewhere!

I'm only switching to 4E if two things happen:

A) I can easily adapt my 3.5E material to 4E. My player won't give up his Spellthief, for example, for anything.

B) 4E is still around after 10 years and going real strong.

I don't want to get myself neck-deep in 4E D&D books...and then 5E comes like 5 years after 4E was announced.
Razz
08-22-07, 12:42 AM Yeah, just the sound of spell level 25 shows me they're replacing one set of complexity for another.

Wait, what!?

Are you serious? Please tell me you're kidding! Spell levels go up to 25th!?!?!
Dark Wizard
08-22-07, 12:45 AM A few vague references can be found in the GenCon interviews and summaries. I'm not sure how set it is in 4E, it might just have been something they fiddled with in playtesting.
ShadezofDis
08-22-07, 12:47 AM Yep, up to 25th level.

Which is not to say that 25th level spells will be more powerful than 9th level spells, though from what I've heard 25th level spells are likely to be in the realms of epic.

But I've taken out of it that it'll be roughly the same power of spells, just spread through 25 levels.
Dark Wizard
08-22-07, 12:56 AM Yes, the original ideas sprang up when someone thought it might be easier to have a spell level for each class level. A second level mage can only cast second level spells, a tenth level mage can cast up to tenth level spells and so on.

I prefer the mystical significance of 9 spell levels. Clerics in the 2e days only received up to 7th level spells, that was another significant number concept.
Lord Karsus
08-22-07, 01:12 AM -What the hell...Well, there goes having cast a 12th level spell as something unheard of...:(
Dark Wizard
08-22-07, 01:43 AM Don't worry, figuring magical exchange rates, spell inflation, and temporal interest you're still ahead with something like a 33rd and 1/3rd level spell.
Mr_Miscellany
08-22-07, 03:01 AM Seriously, we on THIS board are FR enthusiasts first, gamers second. Not I.

I've been equal parts of both since the beginning.

::::::::::::

4E Factoid: You can look forward to one 4E PHB per year for at least the next three years. That's straight from WotC at the seminar. How that scales with the Monster Manuals (and more importantly: Realms Sourcebooks)....well I dunno yet.

;)

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Beaver 08-21-07, 01:57 PM	I am not buying any 4ED book, I refuse. I find that 4th is nothing more then a marketing ploy. Remember, it offers more simple rules and better pictures. Just what every D&D fan wants. Is it just me, or does everyone else think that they do not have to simplify the rules? My group have had this discussion, Wizards is attempting to turn D&D into magic the gathering....In the way that a new edition comes out every few years ...and they want us to think we have to have the newest edition to be 'official'. Regardless, we started our realms DR 1372 and we have made our own history from there. It is now 1416, and we disregard all new Forgotten Realms info completely...as we took their world and made it our own.... Am I crazy for not buying into 4th?
Victor_Ograygor 08-21-07, 02:15 PM	You are not crazy Beaver, but be patient and let use see how bad it really is. I understand you and I also think that its crazy with a new edition Vic :)
The ShapeLess One 08-21-07, 02:15 PM	The rules are as simple as they can possibly be. I don't understand how anyone can have trouble with them. I don't even care for the d20 rule set. So I get the FR books I want then convert them to my favored system. Buy it or don't, it will still becoming out. No amount of protest will ever change what WotC wants to do. I have PMED you check it.
MarkusTay63 08-21-07, 03:28 PM	Look at the bright side, WotC is saving people a TON of money. 3e is officially over, so if you have all the books and don't need a new system, then you're done. You need never to make another single purchase again. Pretty nice of them, I must say. ;)
ShadezofDis 08-21-07, 04:59 PM	Nice Markus. :) I'm going to take a long look at them when they come out. I'm annoyed that they've decided to change the rules system (in quite the extreme manner if what they say is accurate) but that wouldn't invalidate the lore, I'm just hoping the lore isn't stupid. I'll be very, very mad if the lore is stupid.
Bonzai 08-21-07, 08:18 PM	At this point, I am not buying another 3.5 book (with perhaps the exception of the grand history of the realms). From here on out I will wait till 4.0 comes out, and make an informed decision. Though the last time a company did this to me (white wolf), they lost me as a paying customer.
Meldread 08-21-07, 08:31 PM	Most of my concern is with the Lore. The system change sounds interesting, but to be honest I've grown to dislike the D&D System. It focuses too much on combat which in turn creates a whole set of problems. It leads to PC's more likely to solve situations with violence than with intelligence. It leads to more roll-playing than role-playing. I'm not a dungeon crawler. I'm someone who enjoys telling a cooperative story and having interesting plots involving politics and religion. I would like to have characters in my group who do not have to concern themselves about surviving in combat but at the same time be just as viable. I would like to play games where people do not feel the need to MIN/MAX their characters to make them the most effective. Thankfully, since the 4E FR books will be mostly fluff (something I am very happy about) I may buy them and switch to a new system. Or better yet make my own.
Beaver 08-21-07, 08:47 PM	I like the point about not buying anymore books at all when 3.5 is done. That is somewhat reassuring. But, I guess I feel somewhat betrayed as a player? As lame as that sounds...I think that they should not of even released 3.5 if they had intentions of doing this. I mean, after all the money I and others have pumped into the game, they 'revolutionize' it..... I understand its all about making money, but... I digress.... And when they want to give more power to the race of a creature.... If you think about it, race matters the first 5 levels or so...it helps your character develop. After that, its true it gets lost in the muck. But, for good reason. Whatever race you come from doesnt matter when your an 20lvl Wizard....your still powerful and you rely on your spells above anything. I see no reason to change it... Also....the system is what you make of it. The DM along with the players determine how much roleplaying goes on... I have had hack and slash games, and I have had games where you spend hours roleplaying. I like both, the combination is good.
Meldread 08-21-07, 09:33 PM	Well I just hate the way power scales in D&D. I want something that feels more realistic. I am not as interested in Uber High Fantasy as I once was mostly because in the end everything gets somewhat cartoony. I try and make the game as realistic as possible, but in the end the system simply makes that unfeasible. You end up with uber powered characters eventually that are out of scale with the rest of the world. In truth I am already dabbling with the idea of designing my own system from the ground up. I began dabbling the day I heard 4E was coming out and began to put some earnest thoughts into it once I heard the Realm's books were mostly going to focus on the fluff. I am leaning toward getting rid of levels entirely (which helps when it comes to scaling issues) and instead going with something skill based, and using a bell curve when rolling dice to get more average rolls closer to ones skill than the wide range currently experienced with d20. So unless they really knock my socks off with 4E I doubt I'll be using it, and if they don't live up to my expectations with the Realm's I may abandon that for a setting of my own creation. Besides, the problem with WotC is that their system of generating revenue is unsustainable. Eventually there will be a 5E, a 6E, a 7E, etc. until the next best thing comes along.
Muddman 08-21-07, 10:08 PM	Oops, see my answer below :)
Muddman 08-21-07, 10:08 PM	I say you have to wait and see. Alot of people (myself included) have started to dislike the 3.5 rule system. Its better than 2nd edition, but thats not saying much. I think they really need to stream line things, not simplify, streamline. Get rid of all the kinds of actions and concentrate on whats important. So far, what they've released sounds interesting. Abilities based on weapons sounds like great fun as does the idea that every class level is important and exciting. Check out the latest Star Wars RPG to see how they really improved things by making each and every level something to look forward to. I truely believe that they are trying to improve the system, not simply make a grab at more cash. And like someone said, if it sucks ignore it and enjoy the 3.5 books :)
selunatic2397 08-21-07, 10:17 PM	Since my campaign is first edition, I won't be buying 4ED either...my gamers just laughed when I told them 4ED was coming and asked if that map of mystery in the last Dungeon was showing up on Friday...
MarkusTay63 08-21-07, 10:43 PM	I just read we're getting the indexes back! :D That alone is worth a new edition... to me, anyways Seriously, we on THIS board are FR enthusiasts first, gamers second. I wouldn't worry about what systems of rules to use - they all work. It's the DM that makes things fun, and a good one can do that even without rules (as Ed did for years). What WE should be focusing on is the new attention that FR is getting, weather you like the changes or not, we ARE getting some well deserved attention. They might be getting rid of Gnomes! They were like a 'poor man's' halfling/Dwarf crossbreed, with a big nose and a pentient for blowing things up! Good riddance I say! Seriously, play with whatever rules you like (and Meldread, you need to look into Runequest, a leveless system WAY ahead of it's time), but don't dis FR. There is going to be a LOT of new lore coming down the pipe with 4e, so at least try to have a positive outlook. ;)
Meldread 08-21-07, 10:54 PM	I agree with you Markus, at least when it comes to FR. I have a rather positive outlook with a mix of rational skepticism. I eagerly await to see what they've done, because in all honesty I don't think they could make things that much worse at this point. :P Eventually you just hit rock bottom and there is nowhere else to go but up! I'm excited to say the least.
Razz 08-22-07, 12:20 AM	I am not buying any 4ED book, I refuse. I find that 4th is nothing more then a marketing ploy. Remember, it offers more simple rules and better pictures. Just what every D&D fan wants. Is it just me, or does everyone else think that they do not have to simplify the rules? My group have had this discussion, Wizards is attempting to turn D&D into magic the gathering....In the way that a new edition comes out every few years ...and they want us to think we have to have the newest edition to be 'official'. Regardless, we started our realms DR 1372 and we have made our own history from there. It is now 1416, and we disregard all new Forgotten Realms info completely...as we took their world and made it our own.... Am I crazy for not buying into 4th? I agree with you, my friend. It is just a marketing ploy and I don't agree with this stupid bold-faced lie of an emphasis on 4E: "Faster gameplay and less complexity in the rules" That was what they said 3E was supposed to be...and it is! What the hell is 5E gonna be? Even faster gameplay and complexity? I wouldn't be surprised if 6E is just an MMORPG of D&D.....cause it'll be that blindingly fast!
Dark Wizard 08-22-07, 12:27 AM	Yeah, just the sound of spell level 25 shows me they're replacing one set of complexity for another. Since I psionic as well as an accomplished magician, I predict 7E will just consist of quick shots of enriched cocaine injected into our bloodstreams at regular intervals with morsel of nano-etched Realmslore on each molecule. For a standard subscription service fee of $19.95 a month plus a down payment of our brain. Something must sustain Gleemax. It's a mindflayer conspiracy right out of the mad, mad Far Realms.
Razz 08-22-07, 12:38 AM	I mean, after all the money I and others have pumped into the game, they 'revolutionize' it..... . I'm just tired of the "revolutionizing". How many times are they gonna do it? The line has to be drawn somewhere! I'm only switching to 4E if two things happen: A) I can easily adapt my 3.5E material to 4E. My player won't give up his Spellthief, for example, for anything. B) 4E is still around after 10 years and going real strong. I don't want to get myself neck-deep in 4E D&D books...and then 5E comes like 5 years after 4E was announced.
Razz 08-22-07, 12:42 AM	Yeah, just the sound of spell level 25 shows me they're replacing one set of complexity for another. Wait, what!? Are you serious? Please tell me you're kidding! Spell levels go up to 25th!?!?!
Dark Wizard 08-22-07, 12:45 AM	A few vague references can be found in the GenCon interviews and summaries. I'm not sure how set it is in 4E, it might just have been something they fiddled with in playtesting.
ShadezofDis 08-22-07, 12:47 AM	Yep, up to 25th level. Which is not to say that 25th level spells will be more powerful than 9th level spells, though from what I've heard 25th level spells are likely to be in the realms of epic. But I've taken out of it that it'll be roughly the same power of spells, just spread through 25 levels.
Dark Wizard 08-22-07, 12:56 AM	Yes, the original ideas sprang up when someone thought it might be easier to have a spell level for each class level. A second level mage can only cast second level spells, a tenth level mage can cast up to tenth level spells and so on. I prefer the mystical significance of 9 spell levels. Clerics in the 2e days only received up to 7th level spells, that was another significant number concept.
Lord Karsus 08-22-07, 01:12 AM	-What the hell...Well, there goes having cast a 12th level spell as something unheard of...:(
Dark Wizard 08-22-07, 01:43 AM	Don't worry, figuring magical exchange rates, spell inflation, and temporal interest you're still ahead with something like a 33rd and 1/3rd level spell.
Mr_Miscellany 08-22-07, 03:01 AM	Seriously, we on THIS board are FR enthusiasts first, gamers second. Not I. I've been equal parts of both since the beginning. :::::::::::: 4E Factoid: You can look forward to one 4E PHB per year for at least the next three years. That's straight from WotC at the seminar. How that scales with the Monster Manuals (and more importantly: Realms Sourcebooks)....well I dunno yet. ;)