I kinda hope area books do go away. [Archive] - Wizards Community

I kinda hope area books do go away. [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
D1Tremere
03-05-07, 09:44 AM I can never get people to even try FR (My favorite game setting when I was a kid) due to the huge amount of material they feel they must wade threw and know perfectly to play a good character there.
Compare to Eberron (the default setting for our games) where there is one book for a whole contenent, so if you wanna play a character from the Talantia planes it doesn't realy require that much looking up just a quick paragraph in the main book for flavore.
The idea of regional feats and character quarks does make the game more unique, as your character can be very old school human or more eastern exotic human. But you have to read threw 3 different books or more just to get the hang of the character rules changes for that race and it's class options (if you wanna play a REAL character from that reagion). Just feels too much for new players to get behind.
Stigger
03-05-07, 09:50 AM You hardly are required to, it simply allows you to do so... it's only as complicated and difficult as the gamers make it really. Feat cheat sheets can really go a long way to helping there I've found... just the feat name, it's category, and a book/page reference, and maybe a brief summary for new players not already familiar. Just be sure to use a small font size so it isn't this pages long overwhelmingly daunting list. :D
Alediran
03-05-07, 09:55 AM We were all in the same place at the begining, if somebody wants to play in the FR and doesn't do his/her homework, he/she could rapidly discover that his/her laziness cost too much. One of my players is like that, he expects to have the "most powerfull bow, always win, etc" but he is the only one who didn't studied when I told them.

End result, his character is just a poorly written Wod Elf Ranger (he didn't even read books to find a PrC that he liked) while one of my other players has an Aasimar Fighter/Sorcerer who is a Guardian of the Weave (aiming for the Knight of the Weave PrC), he wrote a really good story of him, and that gave him some extra benefits, to show the rest of the players that studying the books will help them.

That's not even counting the years of development invested on my main character Alediran, he is necesary to give the final kick to start chapter 4 and beyond of my campaign (long story)
Faraer
03-05-07, 12:20 PM In many settings, new sourcebooks contain new information contrived from scratch. In contrast, great detail is natural to the Realms, and the sourcebooks are chipping away at a wealth of lore that has already existed, unpublished, for up to thirty years. There are pros and cons to highly detailed worlds, but it would be crazy to end the ongoing project of publishing the Realms because you can't reassure your players that they don't need to know what's in all the sourcebooks (of which 'rules changes for that race and it's class options' are the least of anyone's concerns).
MarkusTay63
03-05-07, 12:26 PM Compare to Eberron (the default setting for our games) where there is one book for a whole contenent, so if you wanna play a character from the Talantia planes it doesn't realy require that much looking up just a quick paragraph in the main book for flavore.You can do the same EXACT thing with the FRCS. I know, I have both. Granted, the players guide is helpful, but not neccessary. The regional books are only neccessary to the DM; none of my players know a thing about FR, the closest they ever came to it was Warcraft, LotRs, and Harry Potter. In other words, they know NOTHING.

And yet.... they still enjoyed it. ;)
Faraer
03-05-07, 12:30 PM In many ways the ideal roleplayers are imaginative, open-minded newcomers, who haven't learned cynical 'gamer' habits, don't know what the map of Faerūn looks like, don't have preconceived ideas from certain novels or computer games, don't assume the Realms is Earth, and so can really immerse themselves in the setting as brought to life by the DM.
D1Tremere
03-05-07, 01:01 PM Here’s one example of what I'm talking about.
Player wants to do a Drow elf. He read all the Drizzt novels and the Daughter of the Drow novels. He begins by reading MM entry for Drow Elves. Next he looks to the Forgotten Realms campaign setting book. He decides to be a non basic Drow. He grew up among the Halruaan [Shining South] and takes some regional things from that. He decides to remember his Drow heritage [the Underdark] and takes a few feats from there]. Next he looks threw basic Forgotten Realms Drow info [Players Guide to Faerun] and flushes out his character direction. Now he knows he wants to be a Drow sorcerer with feats to help him see better and more Drow spell like abilities. He has family in both the Underdark and in the Shining South. Next he begins by looking threw FR specific Drow magic [Magic of Faerun]. That’s [FR Campaign Setting, Players Guide to Faerun, Magic of Faerun, MM, the Underdark, Shining South] 6 books.
Player at same game just uses the MM and Players for his Drow, and quickly becomes confused with the wealth of options the other Drow seems to have. If the common Drow is MM, why is his SO different?

Eberron. Player wants to do a Drow elf. [Eberron, MM, Secrets of Xen’drik] 3 books. Everyone can learn all there is to know about all Drow in Eberron with just Secrets of Xen’drik. Now player A and B have a wealth of customization options from just one book. They may still be quite different, but they will be able to say “I know why he worships scorpions and I don’t”.
Faraer
03-05-07, 01:33 PM If this is a problem, presumably the player doesn't want to look in all those books, but in that case, why does he? If I was playing a drow in a Realms campaign, I'd choose a class, and say to the DM: 'If it's OK, I want to be from Maerimydra. Tell me what I should know about it.'

If those feats make for a more interesting character, which I doubt, it's good that they're available. If not, it's the player's fault for wasting his time. By the way, your player would do better to read FOR2 The Drow of the Underdark than any of those books.
MarkusTay63
03-05-07, 01:38 PM Why is there a Drow in Halrua? (considering their history with Dambrath?)

Why are you letting him take REGIONAL feats from different regions? :confused:

The guy's min-maxing, it's the other player who is playing correctly.
Diffan
03-05-07, 03:29 PM Honestly, it sounds like your player put alot of time and effort into his character. That's a good thing! Though he might not have to do any of that, he might have to look the the MM for the 3.5 version of Drow compared to the FRCS version. He's a sorcerer, so unless he wants the basic stuff from the PHB, then he'd have to read the Spell Compendium, (which supercedes(sp?) Magic of Faerun), and that would be a good idea in any setting. Also, if he's from Halruaa, he probably doens't need to look into The Underdark, except for feat selection which can easily be found in the index. All-in-all, none of it actually is needed except for maybe the MM and the PHB, but your player want's to put alot of flavor into his character, which the FR setting has lots more of than Eberron, if only because FR has been around for so much longer. I would urge all your players to at least read the area from where there from, which takes like 15-20 min if your a slow reader, to get an idea of the type of character he/she would be then go from there.
GothicDan
03-05-07, 03:47 PM It really does sound like the player wants to min/max without reading any of the presented material.

If someone doesn't want to read about a setting, at all, most likely I don't want said person to play in my game; if someone's REALLY INTERESTED in playing, ANY setting, they should be EAGER to read up on it.
Critalondel
03-06-07, 02:47 AM The thing is, that guy (the Drow Sorceror from like six different places, or whatever) doesn't have to do what he's doing. It's not the Forgotten Realms' fault he's going nuts with it and "needing" a half dozen (or more) books. You can run a perfectly solid campaign with nothing but the core three (PHB, DMG, MM) and a Forgotten Realms basic campaign setting book. And, heck, the PC's don't even need anything but the PHB (and you can share the FR book for character creation).

Personally, I see the location/setting books as helpfull tools for GMs that choose to use them. If I want more info on the Silver Marches or the Underdark, I can choose to buy the book and have that information available to me to help me run my game. I'll let any players with appropriate regional backgrounds know about any cool stuff I find in there (in terms of feats or whatever), I'll share any appropriate regional history with them (based on where they're from and what they should know)... but, well, that's that. They don't need to buy the book, and maybe I don't even want them to read the whole thing!

Last weekend I started up a game set in the Silver Marches. I let my wife read over the chapter on Uthgardt barbarians (and the stuff on the Black Lion tribe's township, once she decided what tribe she wanted to be from) -- and that was about it. The group's half-elf bard got to flip through some of the Silverymoon stuff (though not, for instance, the information about that Tantlor chick that sets up groups of adventurers, because I don't want to ruin the surprise) in the FR book and the Silver Marches setting, but that was all.

I don't see any reason for my players to feel they need to own a half dozen books (much less read through and memorize a half dozen books, included the adventures in the back of 'em that I might very well run some day) to make a character.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
D1Tremere 03-05-07, 09:44 AM	I can never get people to even try FR (My favorite game setting when I was a kid) due to the huge amount of material they feel they must wade threw and know perfectly to play a good character there. Compare to Eberron (the default setting for our games) where there is one book for a whole contenent, so if you wanna play a character from the Talantia planes it doesn't realy require that much looking up just a quick paragraph in the main book for flavore. The idea of regional feats and character quarks does make the game more unique, as your character can be very old school human or more eastern exotic human. But you have to read threw 3 different books or more just to get the hang of the character rules changes for that race and it's class options (if you wanna play a REAL character from that reagion). Just feels too much for new players to get behind.
Stigger 03-05-07, 09:50 AM	You hardly are required to, it simply allows you to do so... it's only as complicated and difficult as the gamers make it really. Feat cheat sheets can really go a long way to helping there I've found... just the feat name, it's category, and a book/page reference, and maybe a brief summary for new players not already familiar. Just be sure to use a small font size so it isn't this pages long overwhelmingly daunting list. :D
Alediran 03-05-07, 09:55 AM	We were all in the same place at the begining, if somebody wants to play in the FR and doesn't do his/her homework, he/she could rapidly discover that his/her laziness cost too much. One of my players is like that, he expects to have the "most powerfull bow, always win, etc" but he is the only one who didn't studied when I told them. End result, his character is just a poorly written Wod Elf Ranger (he didn't even read books to find a PrC that he liked) while one of my other players has an Aasimar Fighter/Sorcerer who is a Guardian of the Weave (aiming for the Knight of the Weave PrC), he wrote a really good story of him, and that gave him some extra benefits, to show the rest of the players that studying the books will help them. That's not even counting the years of development invested on my main character Alediran, he is necesary to give the final kick to start chapter 4 and beyond of my campaign (long story)
Faraer 03-05-07, 12:20 PM	In many settings, new sourcebooks contain new information contrived from scratch. In contrast, great detail is natural to the Realms, and the sourcebooks are chipping away at a wealth of lore that has already existed, unpublished, for up to thirty years. There are pros and cons to highly detailed worlds, but it would be crazy to end the ongoing project of publishing the Realms because you can't reassure your players that they don't need to know what's in all the sourcebooks (of which 'rules changes for that race and it's class options' are the least of anyone's concerns).
MarkusTay63 03-05-07, 12:26 PM	Compare to Eberron (the default setting for our games) where there is one book for a whole contenent, so if you wanna play a character from the Talantia planes it doesn't realy require that much looking up just a quick paragraph in the main book for flavore.You can do the same EXACT thing with the FRCS. I know, I have both. Granted, the players guide is helpful, but not neccessary. The regional books are only neccessary to the DM; none of my players know a thing about FR, the closest they ever came to it was Warcraft, LotRs, and Harry Potter. In other words, they know NOTHING. And yet.... they still enjoyed it. ;)
Faraer 03-05-07, 12:30 PM	In many ways the ideal roleplayers are imaginative, open-minded newcomers, who haven't learned cynical 'gamer' habits, don't know what the map of Faerūn looks like, don't have preconceived ideas from certain novels or computer games, don't assume the Realms is Earth, and so can really immerse themselves in the setting as brought to life by the DM.
D1Tremere 03-05-07, 01:01 PM	Here’s one example of what I'm talking about. Player wants to do a Drow elf. He read all the Drizzt novels and the Daughter of the Drow novels. He begins by reading MM entry for Drow Elves. Next he looks to the Forgotten Realms campaign setting book. He decides to be a non basic Drow. He grew up among the Halruaan [Shining South] and takes some regional things from that. He decides to remember his Drow heritage [the Underdark] and takes a few feats from there]. Next he looks threw basic Forgotten Realms Drow info [Players Guide to Faerun] and flushes out his character direction. Now he knows he wants to be a Drow sorcerer with feats to help him see better and more Drow spell like abilities. He has family in both the Underdark and in the Shining South. Next he begins by looking threw FR specific Drow magic [Magic of Faerun]. That’s [FR Campaign Setting, Players Guide to Faerun, Magic of Faerun, MM, the Underdark, Shining South] 6 books. Player at same game just uses the MM and Players for his Drow, and quickly becomes confused with the wealth of options the other Drow seems to have. If the common Drow is MM, why is his SO different? Eberron. Player wants to do a Drow elf. [Eberron, MM, Secrets of Xen’drik] 3 books. Everyone can learn all there is to know about all Drow in Eberron with just Secrets of Xen’drik. Now player A and B have a wealth of customization options from just one book. They may still be quite different, but they will be able to say “I know why he worships scorpions and I don’t”.
Faraer 03-05-07, 01:33 PM	If this is a problem, presumably the player doesn't want to look in all those books, but in that case, why does he? If I was playing a drow in a Realms campaign, I'd choose a class, and say to the DM: 'If it's OK, I want to be from Maerimydra. Tell me what I should know about it.' If those feats make for a more interesting character, which I doubt, it's good that they're available. If not, it's the player's fault for wasting his time. By the way, your player would do better to read FOR2 The Drow of the Underdark than any of those books.
MarkusTay63 03-05-07, 01:38 PM	Why is there a Drow in Halrua? (considering their history with Dambrath?) Why are you letting him take REGIONAL feats from different regions? :confused: The guy's min-maxing, it's the other player who is playing correctly.
Diffan 03-05-07, 03:29 PM	Honestly, it sounds like your player put alot of time and effort into his character. That's a good thing! Though he might not have to do any of that, he might have to look the the MM for the 3.5 version of Drow compared to the FRCS version. He's a sorcerer, so unless he wants the basic stuff from the PHB, then he'd have to read the Spell Compendium, (which supercedes(sp?) Magic of Faerun), and that would be a good idea in any setting. Also, if he's from Halruaa, he probably doens't need to look into The Underdark, except for feat selection which can easily be found in the index. All-in-all, none of it actually is needed except for maybe the MM and the PHB, but your player want's to put alot of flavor into his character, which the FR setting has lots more of than Eberron, if only because FR has been around for so much longer. I would urge all your players to at least read the area from where there from, which takes like 15-20 min if your a slow reader, to get an idea of the type of character he/she would be then go from there.
GothicDan 03-05-07, 03:47 PM	It really does sound like the player wants to min/max without reading any of the presented material. If someone doesn't want to read about a setting, at all, most likely I don't want said person to play in my game; if someone's REALLY INTERESTED in playing, ANY setting, they should be EAGER to read up on it.
Critalondel 03-06-07, 02:47 AM	The thing is, that guy (the Drow Sorceror from like six different places, or whatever) doesn't have to do what he's doing. It's not the Forgotten Realms' fault he's going nuts with it and "needing" a half dozen (or more) books. You can run a perfectly solid campaign with nothing but the core three (PHB, DMG, MM) and a Forgotten Realms basic campaign setting book. And, heck, the PC's don't even need anything but the PHB (and you can share the FR book for character creation). Personally, I see the location/setting books as helpfull tools for GMs that choose to use them. If I want more info on the Silver Marches or the Underdark, I can choose to buy the book and have that information available to me to help me run my game. I'll let any players with appropriate regional backgrounds know about any cool stuff I find in there (in terms of feats or whatever), I'll share any appropriate regional history with them (based on where they're from and what they should know)... but, well, that's that. They don't need to buy the book, and maybe I don't even want them to read the whole thing! Last weekend I started up a game set in the Silver Marches. I let my wife read over the chapter on Uthgardt barbarians (and the stuff on the Black Lion tribe's township, once she decided what tribe she wanted to be from) -- and that was about it. The group's half-elf bard got to flip through some of the Silverymoon stuff (though not, for instance, the information about that Tantlor chick that sets up groups of adventurers, because I don't want to ruin the surprise) in the FR book and the Silver Marches setting, but that was all. I don't see any reason for my players to feel they need to own a half dozen books (much less read through and memorize a half dozen books, included the adventures in the back of 'em that I might very well run some day) to make a character.