Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Meldread 10-28-06, 11:52 AM	Well, not all of the Gods, just most of them. I've decided that I'm going to make the Realms my own. It's going to be a lot of work on my part, but I've decided that I love the Forgotten Realm's so much that I'm just going to get rid of everything I do not like about it. It starts with the Gods. I'm interested in what people think of my following plan. It is my hope that time will "begin" 162 years after the Godswar ends. By the time the Godswar ends, Toril will nearly be knocked back into the Stone Age. It will be the most cataclysmic event ever seen before, and it will be a new beginning for Toril. A time when everything seems fresh and new, where all things once again seem possible. It will begin with a conspiracy between Shar and Cyric, the two most powerful evil deities. They will use the Shadow Weave to "poison" Mystra, by forcing her to merge the Shadow Weave and the Weave into one. The corrupting nature of the Shadow Weave will drive Mystra insane, and Cyric will attempt to slay her. However, unknown to him Shar also forged a pack with Mask, who she views as a much steadier ally. Shar and Cyric use their combined power (and some powerful artifact) to block Ao and his influence from Toril. Cyric attacks the insane Mystra, but before he can finish her off Mask arrives and assaults the weakened Cyric. Shar opens a portal for Mystra to escape, but it leads to a trap, where Shar kills Mystra, taking the portfolios of Magic, Spells and the Weave for herself. Cyric escapes Mask, but ends up losing the portfolios of intrigue, deception and illusions to Mask. The balance in the Realms shifts. Without Ao constantly looking over the Gods shoulder keeping things in check, old hatreds and rivalries re-emerge. Shar finds Selune and destroys her, but before she dies, Selune gives all of her essence (and portfolios) to Eilistraee for safekeeping. Lathander acts swiftly as well, he has been waiting for the moment to bring about the Dawn Cataclysm redux, where he can eliminate all the other Gods and start afresh. Lathander manages to find a way to force all the gods – including himself – down into Toril as mortals similar to the Time of Troubles. Cyric is badly weakened; he has a bit of déjà vu and remembers the last holder of the portfolio of murder being in a similar state. Cyric starts to panic as he feels the noose around his neck tighten, but is approached by Gargauth, who offers him an alliance. Together they slay Bane and Cyric gains the portfolios of Strife, Fear and Hatred. Gargauth gains the portfolio of Tyranny. Meanwhile, Shar and Mask are up to dirty deeds in the Underdark. Mask deceives both Vhaeraun and Lolth into coming to Menzoberranzan. Vhaeraun arrives thinking Mask is going to help him destroy Lolth, and Lolth arrives thinking she’ll destroy Vhaeraun - but the jokes on them because Shar kills them both… along with everyone within Menzoberranzan. Shar then begins to manifest herself all across the Underdark to Lolth’s faithful, proclaiming herself the rightful Queen of the Underdark. (As the Underdark is already part of her portfolio.) Cities and Drow society fall apart as some are swayed by Shar, others try and remain faithful to Lolth, others switch to other deities. Inevitably, the rest of the Drow pantheon is slaughtered aside from Eilistraee. The Godswar lasts for a period of five years and eight months. During that time it seems as if Lathander and Shar are in a competition to see how many Gods they can eliminate before they are the only ones left. Lathander slays many including, but not limited to: Garagos (whose portfolios end up going to Tempus), Talona, Siamorphe, Auril, Shaundakul, Umberlee, and wounds Kossuth badly - forcing him to lose the portfolio of purification through fire (which ends up in the hands of one of Kossuth's High Priests on Toril who rises to the status of a demigod.) However, unfortunately for Lathander, Sunlord Daelegoth Orndeir, leader of the Brotherhood of the Glorious Sun, manages to convince enough people that Amaunator will soon be reborn, through the transformation of Lathander. As Lathander faces off against Helm, he is weakened to the point that Amaunator’s divine essence could combine itself with Lathander’s, effectively merging them both, freeing Amaunator from the Astral Plane through the sheer faith of his followers. The new deity would largely resemble what Amaunator once was, obtaining the portfolios of Law, Order, the Sun, and Nobility (from Siamorphe). (He would also be Lawful Good, due to the influence of Lathander’s essence, instead of his original Lawful Neutral.) The final battle culminates between Shar, Mask, Helm, Ilmater, Tyr, Torm, Azuth, and Corellon Larethian. During that battle, Shar and Mask destroy Corellon and Tyr, but Shar is badly wounded and ends up losing the portfolios she stole from Mystra. They end up falling into the hands of Azuth, who becomes the new Lord of Magic, Guardian of the Weave. Torm sacrifices himself during that battle to undo the bindings that kept Ao from interfering with Toril. At the moment that happened, and this is at the same moment Shar loses Mystra’s former portfolios, all of the gods are removed from Toril, and are banned from returning for 150 years. During that time the gods who had small followings eventually lost their remaining followers, and they died as well. Magic ceased to function as there was no weave, nor was there divine magic. At that moment, all things magical ceased to function. Those who had prolonged their life through magic suddenly found their age catch up with them. The undead ceased to be animated. …and it was not a good time to be in a flying city or to be a Red Wizard. Also during the Godswar: Selune was reborn through the aid of Eilistraee, though Selune is extremely weak. Selune gains the portfolios of Moonlight, Starlight, Navigation, Adventurers, Wanderers, and Explorers and is a demigoddess in the service to Eilistraee. (Whom she owes her very existence too.) Lolth is also reborn through the act of her faithful and the acts of Cyric and Gargauth, who were attempting to resurrect her to strike at Shar and her Drow faithful. Lolth is once again the Spider Queen, but also has the portfolios of cruelty, and the Drow. Toward the end, Lolth attempts to reestablish herself with her faithful, and orders them to strike out at those who betrayed her. She spends most of her time, however, playing cat and mouse games with Mask who took her portfolio of assassins. (Shar continues to assert her dominion over Darkness, which she claims Lolth tried to steal from her, and Talos took Lolth's claim over Chaos.) The new Realms would be something similar yet largely different from the current Realms. Kingdoms, which once were, would be no more, instead new kingdoms and empires would have arisen to replace them. Essentially, the current lore for the Realms would be used as historical lore, to build the new Realms. The new Realms would be moderate to low magic, and the divine beings would have VERY strict laws on how they could and could not interact with their followers. The number of gods would be greatly curtailed. (Down from well over one hundred to between thirty and forty core Gods, with an ordering scheme that makes sense so portfolios do not overlap.) Time will begin at a point where magic and the gods have only recently reappeared. There are those who remained faithful, even through their gods absence. All of the iconic figures are dead. It opens the door for new heroes and villains. A clean slate which will allow new adventures to be written and new battles to be fought. I am interested in what people think of the Godswar idea, as well as what deities they believe should remain and which should die off. Some of the deities will likely get a personality change as a result of some of their newly gained portfolios. Here are some examples: Shar ends up killing Hoar and gains the portfolio of vengeance, and will strive to corrupt others to her services through promises of retribution. Cyric changes a lot, almost completely focused on causing hatred, strife and fear through lies and murder. This works well toward Gargauth's ends who sees the corruption Cyric creates as opportunities for him and his followers to arise and institute new orders to replace the old. Silvanus and Malar become greatly interesting as they become competing lesser deities that have portfolios completely opposite of each other. Silvanus shifts from a deity focused on keeping the balance, to a deity focused on preserving nature and helping it live in harmony with the rest of the world. Malar is the complete opposite. Where as Silvanus is a god of tracking, Malar is a god of stalking. Where as Silvanus is a god of good and neutral lycanthropes (taking the portfolio from Selune), Malar is the god of evil lycanthropes. Where as Silvanus is a god of forest creatures, Malar is the god of marauding beasts and monsters. Whereas Silvanus is a god of hunters who strives to live in harmony with the land, Malar is the god of those who seek to take what they want from the land with little regard for it. Tempus also receives a major personality shift due to his acquired portfolios. He receives the portfolios of: Rebellion, War, Plunder, Courage, and Strength. Tempus is some ways similar to the former deity known as Garagos, in that he revels more in the actual act of war, at times seeking to cause rebellion simply to start a war. He encourages his faithful to take the spoils of victory, because the strong deserve the spoils, but to not be greedy and always leave enough so that a foe can rebuild their forces so you can topple them once again. In the Tempus ideal world, there would be endless conflict, with armies fighting one another, a clear victor, then both armies rebuilding and fighting each other once again. The new Tempus is an instigator. He tries to start war for the challenge it brings, as he believes that peoples true colors come out on the battlefield. That during war is the only time true courage, strength, and heroism is shown. Then there is Chauntea who collects many of Lathander's former portfolios. She becomes a rather powerful, all encompassing nature goddess of: Birth, Renewal, the Seasons, Youth, Vitality, Growth, Agriculture and Nature. ...and of course Eilistraee made off like a bandit gaining the following portfolios: The Moon, the Stars, Song, Poetry, Beauty, Dance, Passion, Love, Joy, Happiness, Celebration, and Sensual Fulfillment. There are many others, as well. However, I am interested in everyone's thoughts so far. I'm sure I'll be stoned by some for even considering this, but I want to rid the Realms of the things that I, personally, find negative about it. It allows me an excuse to eliminate all those crazy migrating cultures. It allows me to get rid of super legendary figures that seem to dwarf everyone else by comparison such as Elminster. It allows me to do pretty much anything I want. I can have a Realm's like experience, without the baggage. All it requires is a bit more imagination and a bit more work on my part. Are there any suggestions or better ideas out there?
Todesherr 10-28-06, 12:15 PM	It's your campaign and you can do what you want...but it all has one flaw. There simply is no artifact that could block Ao. You may cite Imaskari magic that created blocks on portals but Ao allowed that to happen and removed it later when he felt like it. Furthermore the level of Chaos is so great that I would wonder if even Ao's superior would permit Ao to be banned...otherwise it is an interesting story...
MaskedOne 10-28-06, 12:17 PM	Ehm, without the Weaves for 150 years, you are aware that you've just handed Toril to the most organized powerful group of psions available and handed it over on a silver platter. In short, Illithids, come one, come all, free brains for everyone and no pesky spellcasters to fry you for your presumption. Other than that, whatever would be powers out there would love to get their paws on a trinket that allows 2 slightly irritating but still on par with the rest divinities to block out an overpower who can singlehandledly reduced multiple pantheons to jumped up mortals in a little under 5 minutes because he's feeling irritable. *shrug* Eh well, author/GM control overrides semi-logical extrapolation in official lore, it might as well do the same here.
KnightErrantJR 10-28-06, 12:19 PM	I am all for you making the Realms your own, and you have some interesting ideas. If these get your creative juices flowing, I would definately run with them. I do think that you might be falling prey to some outside opinions about the setting. Most people I hear citing that there are too many Chosen and they make PCs less important, or that the gods are too involved in the day to day affairs of Toril, are people that are either championing another setting or means of DMing (Homebrewers, proponents of DragonLance, Greyhawk, Eberron, and host of non-supported "dead" settings), or people that played in a poorly DMed FR session. The former aren't inclined to give the setting more than cursory attention, and the latter haven't really felt what the setting should feel like. All of that having been said, I know the setting won't appeal to every player of D&D, and I wouldn't want it to. But I wish more people could differentiate between not liking a certain style of play and not being drawn to a setting, and thinking that there are inherant FLAWS in that setting because it doesn't appeal to your own sensiblilities. I have nothing really against Eberron, and will fully admit I haven't looked at it in depth because the concept doesn't do much for me. That doesn't mean the concept is flawed, just that it isn't really a concept that grabs me specifically. So in a way, what you are doing feels a little like burning down a house to get rid of an ant infestation, i.e. there may be minor things you could do with the setting as written that would make it feel more like your own. All of that having been said, you have some interesting ideas, and if this is what motivates you to run a great campaign, more power to you. I would throw out one pointer to you though. Unless you want to show Ao as being considerably less powerful than he has been portrayed previously, I wouldn't use a couple of greater gods with an artifact to banish him. You could do a few things to limit him though. You could have the gods get another "overgod" interested in Toril so that he was busy dealing with them, or even introduce a "Elder Elemental Evil" type creature powerful enough to fight an Overgod that he has to spend a few thousand years with to keep it from destroying Toril. You could even have a massive rift open into the Far Realm, and have Ao preoccupied with closing this rift and fixing the damage to the fabric of reality while the gods do as they please for a few thousand years (not a long time in his way of thinking, but more than enough time for you to make your changes to the setting).
Todesherr 10-28-06, 12:27 PM	Hmm...I forgot to mention the deities I think should remain. Evil Deities Cyric would be the CE Greater Power of Storms, Destruction, Strife, Hatred, Murder, Deception and Lies Loviator becomes the NE Greater Power of Disease, Poison, Pain, Thieves, Cold, Nightmares and Undeath Garagaus would become the LE Greater Power of Darkness, Death, Tyranny, Fear, Corruption, Night and Loss Good Deities Torm becomes the LG Greater Power of Justice, Rulers, Patience, Paladins, Duty and Courage Chauntea as you described her seems to fit well Liira becomes the CG Greater Power of Love, Joy, Happiness, Luck, Music, Art, Healing and Hope Hmm...those are some ideas I have...cut the pantheon down in size...make it resemble more of a Krynnish Pantheon...
Todesherr 10-28-06, 12:36 PM	Or create a contest between Oerth deities and Toril deities...
Meldread 10-28-06, 12:58 PM	Well the general idea behind this is to push old plots to fruition, and eliminate some of the things about the setting as a whole that I dislike. I want the Forgotten Realms to *FEEL* like the Forgotten Realms, just without all the cross pollination. Who is going to miss the Zakharan Pantheon? I'll likely have the entire Draconic Pantheon wiped out, leaving only one uber Greater Dragon deity. Over all, what has really eaten away at me is the inconsistency and the seemingly hodgepodge nature of the Realms. Things just seem cobbled together. On a very small scale the Forgotten Realm's is great. It's so detailed, its lore is great, but if you pull out and look at things from an over all prospective some things just don't seem to fit together or they look out of place. Having racial pantheons, while certainly makes it seem more like the real world, doesn't fly in the Forgotten Realms whose people KNOW the existence of the Gods is completely true. There is no dispute. There can be no atheists on Toril (as one could not deny the EXISTENCE of the Gods). This being the case, why are there so many Gods that seem to have similar functions? Why is it that the more powerful gods seem to allow this? My overall goal is to basically strip it all down to the core pantheon and get rid of all the big names. I want to change my players expectations. Elminster isn't going to come bail you out, he died in the Godswar. The Drow are more diverse now, and some worship Shar, others have abandoned their evil ways and have embraced Eilistraee, while others cling to the past and embrace Lolth. All three major factions are in constant conflict. --- Anyway, MaskedOne you bring up a very good point about the Illithid. However, this could be an interesting time for Psionics to form as the "new" type of magic. I could see an huge drawn out war between many different factions as they battle the Illithid. Illithid may even eventually end up controlling the majority of the Underdark, forcing many of the Drow onto the surface. Entire Drow cities may become enslaved. However, about Ao - I was thinking something along the lines of an uber version of Imaskari Magic. Maybe it is possible and maybe it is not, in either case I just have to come up with a reason to get Ao out of the picture temporarily.
The Ubbergeek 10-28-06, 04:04 PM	And again, sadly, a DM who prefer to do it 'his own way' rather than trying to see how the Realms is really. It's not the realms, it's an homebrew barely recognisable as the realms. Not only that, but who cut things because they seems 'uncool'. I will miss Zakhara and it's difference. All that is way too uniform - and a blatant copy of Dragonlance.
Halidan 10-28-06, 06:49 PM	I'm curious about something. You say that: I've decided that I love the Forgotten Realm's so much that I'm just going to get rid of everything I do not like about it. From there, you proceed to kill off nearly all the Gods, and severly limit the remaining ones from interacting with their followers, convert the Realms into a "moderate to low" magic world, kill all of the iconic NPC's, eliminate the existing kingdoms and other political powers, and remove all of the "crazy, migrating cultures." What is it that you actually love about the Realms??? I serious in asking that question - I'm not trying to make fun of you nor to deminish your enthusiasm for the idea of making over the Realms. But so far, all you've talked about are things you want to eliminate from the Realms, and not about the things you want to keep or even make more prominent in your "future" version of the Realms. I suspect that there are things about the Realms that you feel are currently being overshadowed by the "high magic," multiple pantheons, iconic NPC's and existing kingdoms and political powers of the Realms. That's why you're stripping these things from your new Realms. However, until we know what the things are that you want to keep and highlight in this new Realms, it's really very hard to give you honest feedback about your proposed changes. Right now, I have no if killing off 85% of the Gods, changing the magical nature of the Realms, and wiping the landscape of NPC's and governments will accomplish your goals or not. I certainly believe that every DM has the responsibility to make changes to a published system to fit their desires as well as the desires of their players. I've made plenty of changes in my version of the Realms, as probably have most of the DM's who post on this forum. I just need more information about what you're trying to accomplish before I can offer you any advice.
GothicDan 10-28-06, 06:55 PM	I'm just as confused as Halidan... What about the Realms is the same? The likelihood of you knocking back all of Faerun literally to the Stone Age as you put it, and expecting it to somehow in some way come out looking ANYTHING like the modern Realms is so miniscule that I have no qualms with labeling it impossible. Are you really prepared to try to write up 35,000 years of the history of a world? Why not just make your own setting?
Meldread 10-28-06, 10:47 PM	Yes, when you word it that way Halidan it certainly sounds like I probably hate the vast majority of the Realms - this is entirely not the case. What I love the most about the Realms is how detailed it is, especially individualized areas. I don't intend to erase what has happened in the past, or simply wave my hand as some DM's do when they say "I don't like X" about the Realms. I'm trying to find a way to eliminate the things that I think largely overshadow what (I feel, at least) makes the Realm's so great. Even though I am eliminating many of the Gods, it is not that I dislike the Gods. It's the fact that I feel that there are too many, and that it seems logically inconsistent that there would be competing pantheons of God's. Take Corellon Larethian for example. His portfolio is: Magic (especially High Elven Magic), music, arts, crafts, war, the Elven race (especially good aligned elves), poets, poetry, bards, and warriors. How many parts of his portfolio conflict with existing Gods? Why does Mystra even allow him to claim the portfolio of Magic (even if it focuses more on high Elven Magic), why does Arvoreen and Tempus not dispute the fact that they all three hold the War portfolio? Sure, it's realistic in the real world to have gods that have multiple portfolios, but the Realms are not the real world - these gods are real. They physically manifest themselves. It seems to me that there should be one, large, overarching pantheon of deities. It makes more sense. Actually, it is not even how real world religions work, deities with competing portfolios tend to get combined and cobbled together. Entire new religions typically evolve from the process. So essentially what I am doing is taking the core gods that get the most attention, that are the most fleshed out, and putting them center stage by eliminating the competing gods. I am also advancing the storyline of the Realms for roughly a century and a half. Also, since Toril is largely a medieval culture, I am putting more of a focus on the gritty and dark nature of the Realms. The reason people such as Elminster and such pose a problem is because there is always this feeling that even if the players fail there will be someone else – someone powerful like Elminster, Drizzt or some other iconic character, to sweep in and save the day. I want the players to feel that THEY are the heroes. That when they do something, they are doing something – and it is something that only they can do. I want the player to feel that good might not always beat evil, that evil has a very good chance of winning, and they are the only ones who can tip the balance. The same goes for an evil run campaign. I want the players to feel that the things they do have a real impact on the world, and that some iconic good aligned character is not going to sweep in and wipe them out. So if an evil aligned campaign wishes to rise up and conquer a nation, they do not have to worry about that level 40+ Archmage dropping in on their little level 15-20 selves and wiping them out. I love the lore of the Realms, and I do not intend on changing it. I just intend to add to it. I do not look at it as throwing stuff away, but rather progressing the storyline forward. Thay might not exist any longer, but would it not be interesting to find out what has happened to Thay? What happened to the Red Wizards after they lost their ability to use magic? (After the slave rebellions were quelled of course.) Instead of looking at things and saying, "I don't like Mystra because I feel she oversteps her bounds way to much. Therefore I'm just either going to pretend that she doesn't exist, or just make up some silly story for her reasons for not getting involved with X plot." I can say, instead, "The death of Mystra marked the beginning of the Godswar, where Shar took control of the Weave and all Magic in Toril. The Godswar ended when Shar lost her control over the Weave, which eventually fell under the control of Azuth, the current God of Magic." What I want to accomplish with this is simple: I want a Realms where it draws on the core spirit of what makes the setting interesting and fun. Its history, its lore, its back story, the constant struggles between good and evil. I want to take that and make it more meaningful to those who adventure in my version of the Realms, by eliminating the stuff that seems to overshadow them. It is a bit like entering a village as a D List Celebrity, only to be out classed when one of the Chosen or some other A List Celebrity arrives. It takes the wind out of the players sails, it makes what they accomplish seem less important and significant in comparison. I want a player to feel that their actions in a small backwater city are just as important and meaningful, as if they were battling demons and demigods. That is where I feel the Forgotten Realms are at its strongest point – down at the small level of details. What I would like from the people here are opinions. What Gods should stay and which should go? What would be some interesting things to happen during the Godswar and after? How much magic is too much magic? How little magic is too little magic? Things of this nature as well as general feedback regarding the idea.
GothicDan 10-28-06, 11:10 PM	Yes, when you word it that way Halidan it certainly sounds like I probably hate the vast majority of the Realms - this is entirely not the case. What I love the most about the Realms is how detailed it is, especially individualized areas. And all of that detail is useless when you end up destroying it, isn't it? Even though I am eliminating many of the Gods, it is not that I dislike the Gods. It's the fact that I feel that there are too many, and that it seems logically inconsistent that there would be competing pantheons of God's. Take Corellon Larethian for example. His portfolio is: Magic (especially High Elven Magic), music, arts, crafts, war, the Elven race (especially good aligned elves), poets, poetry, bards, and warriors. How many parts of his portfolio conflict with existing Gods? Why does Mystra even allow him to claim the portfolio of Magic (even if it focuses more on high Elven Magic), why does Arvoreen and Tempus not dispute the fact that they all three hold the War portfolio? Err. Do you know much about the workings of divinity in the Realms? I'm not trying to be insulting, here, just genuinely curious. In Abeir Toril, there are various Pantheons of Gods... And each Pantheon is independent of another, for the most part. Elves worship Corellon; Mulhorandi humans worship Thoth and Isis and Set. Faerunians worship Tempus; Arvoreen is worshipped by halflings. Deities are not allowed to extend their influence into areas that fall out of their Pantheon's geographical jurisdiction. Mystra is the real exception, since she is inherently, physically tied to the Weave of magic itself; she gets power from ALL spellcasting, regardless of who's doing it. Sure, it's realistic in the real world to have gods that have multiple portfolios, but the Realms are not the real world - these gods are real. They physically manifest themselves. It seems to me that there should be one, large, overarching pantheon of deities. It makes more sense. Not really. It only makes sense if you think that, somehow, the deities can just kill another god and take all of their worshippers. This only works with deities who do that to another god in their pantheon - and even then, they may not always be found worthy of their new portfolios by AO. Actually, it is not even how real world religions work, deities with competing portfolios tend to get combined and cobbled together. Entire new religions typically evolve from the process. And then deities break down into separate forms, too. So essentially what I am doing is taking the core gods that get the most attention, that are the most fleshed out, and putting them center stage by eliminating the competing gods. I am also advancing the storyline of the Realms for roughly a century and a half. Also, since Toril is largely a medieval culture, I am putting more of a focus on the gritty and dark nature of the Realms. That get the most attention by what's published? That makes me kind of sad, because some of my personally favorite gods probably wouldn't be considered to 'make the cut', then. And Toril isn't largely medieval, culturally. Think about it. Look at EACH culture, each region. REALLY think about it. Don't just assume stereotypes. We have evidence of cultures ranging from the Stone Age up to Renaissance technology in the Realms. Chessenta, Mulhorand, Unther, Thay, Chult, The Vast, The Dales, Cormyr, Lantan... The sheer diversity of rough chronological Earth analogies is huge, both technologically and socially speaking. The reason people such as Elminster and such pose a problem is because there is always this feeling that even if the players fail there will be someone else – someone powerful like Elminster, Drizzt or some other iconic character, to sweep in and save the day. I want the players to feel that THEY are the heroes. That when they do something, they are doing something – and it is something that only they can do. I want the player to feel that good might not always beat evil, that evil has a very good chance of winning, and they are the only ones who can tip the balance. I'm not sure why the players think that Elminster or Laerel or Drizzt would save the day if they failed in letting a horde of kobolds overrun a town, when there are evil dracoliches annihilating cities, cults of liches resurrecting dead deities, and Thayans conjuring Narfellan demon lords, all around at the same time. The same goes for an evil run campaign. I want the players to feel that the things they do have a real impact on the world, and that some iconic good aligned character is not going to sweep in and wipe them out. So if an evil aligned campaign wishes to rise up and conquer a nation, they do not have to worry about that level 40+ Archmage dropping in on their little level 15-20 selves and wiping them out. They should always have to worry about the consequences of their actions. That's part of playing evil sincerely. And, uh, I think 40th+ level Archmages have more important things to do. Remember, in Faerun, the really high level Evil NPCs are about on par with Good ones, in terms of numbers, and the most powerful ones overall are Evil. I love the lore of the Realms, and I do not intend on changing it. I just intend to add to it. I do not look at it as throwing stuff away, but rather progressing the storyline forward. How can you knock an entire world back to the Stone Age and not change it...? Thay might not exist any longer, but would it not be interesting to find out what has happened to Thay? What happened to the Red Wizards after they lost their ability to use magic? (After the slave rebellions were quelled of course.) Um. They would DIE. 150 years of no Weave? Szass Tam would be dead immediately, for one. In fact, almost all life on Toril would be dead or ruined beyond recognition, because the Weave is effectively the primordial energy that allows all of creation to exist in Abeir-Toril. Without the Weave, Abeir-Toril would be wracked by earthquakes; plants would slowly decay; hurricanes would tear it apart; oceans would boil; etc. Instead of looking at things and saying, "I don't like Mystra because I feel she oversteps her bounds way to much. Therefore I'm just either going to pretend that she doesn't exist, or just make up some silly story for her reasons for not getting involved with X plot." I can say, instead, "The death of Mystra marked the beginning of the Godswar, where Shar took control of the Weave and all Magic in Toril. The Godswar ended when Shar lost her control over the Weave, which eventually fell under the control of Azuth, the current God of Magic." Canonically, there is currently no deity who could control the Weave other than Mystra - because it is her physical manifestation. If the Weave exists for a moment, then she exists, and if it comes back, she is, by default, alive again. What I want to accomplish with this is simple: I want a Realms where it draws on the core spirit of what makes the setting interesting and fun. Its history, its lore, its back story, the constant struggles between good and evil. I want to take that and make it more meaningful to those who adventure in my version of the Realms, by eliminating the stuff that seems to overshadow them. It is a bit like entering a village as a D List Celebrity, only to be out classed when one of the Chosen or some other A List Celebrity arrives. It takes the wind out of the players sails, it makes what they accomplish seem less important and significant in comparison. I want a player to feel that their actions in a small backwater city are just as important and meaningful, as if they were battling demons and demigods. That is where I feel the Forgotten Realms are at its strongest point – down at the small level of details. Without those people that you think overshadow your PCs, the Realms would not have such a rich, amazing, detailed history, though. So you're effectively trying to pretend like Faerun exists as it does in a vacuum, and deemphasize all of the people that make it feel like it's a LIVING world. And this one is a pure judgment call: I think if your players get upset because there are people more powerful than they are in the world, then they have a bit of growing up to do. But that may be because in real life I've never played past 6th level in my 11 years of gaming. I think it the height of hubris to feel the need to bring an ENTIRE WORLD down to your PC's current level of power in order to assuage their egos. What I would like from the people here are opinions. What Gods should stay and which should go? What would be some interesting things to happen during the Godswar and after? How much magic is too much magic? How little magic is too little magic? Things of this nature as well as general feedback regarding the idea. As I stated above, if the Weave is destroyed, all hell breaks loose on Toril. All of life would atrophy and eventually die out. Without worshippers, even the deities remaining after the Godswar would die out from lack of faith. We've been told by Ed Greenwood that it IS possible that a deity MAY be able to construct their own version to manage the raw magic of Faerun... But it's not something that they would be able to do at the drop of a hat. The only deities who would logically be able to 'stabilize' magic within even a relatively small geographical area, before all of their faithful died (and thus, they died, too) would be those with Magic in their portfolios. So you could effectively have little 'pockets' of stable magic, maintained by the more experienced/powerful deities of magic (Azuth, Shar, Thoth, Isis, Corellon, Aerdrie, Hanali, Sehanine, some others..). So, those deities would survive (albeit it at a much lesser power), and once the little 'islands' of stable magic had been formed, and their worshippers were 'safe,' I'd imagine a few of the other deities would the highest DvR would be alive as well. So, realistically, any deity of Intermediate Rank or below would be dead, and the population of Faerun would probably be cut down to about 1% of what it is now.
Todesherr 10-29-06, 01:12 AM	I am agreeing with others; this is all beginning to sound like a Post Cataclysm Krynn....I think some reduction in Pantheon could work but not the total reworking of the realms...
Halidan 10-29-06, 10:41 AM	Yes, when you word it that way Halidan it certainly sounds like I probably hate the vast majority of the Realms - this is entirely not the case. Careful there Meldread - I never used the word "hate" anywhere in my original post. Hate is far too strong and ugly a word to be used casually in a forum about gaming, which after all is just a recreational activity. I simply said that I was having difficuly seeing what it was that you "loved" about the Realms. What I love the most about the Realms is how detailed it is, especially individualized areas. I don't intend to erase what has happened in the past, or simply wave my hand as some DM's do when they say "I don't like X" about the Realms. I'm trying to find a way to eliminate the things that I think largely overshadow what (I feel, at least) makes the Realm's so great. OK - so what you love is the detail of the Realms. The fact that we have pictures and text that describe things like Realms-specific flowers and plants, beers and wines, lists of the food that is served in inns and noble houses, etc. We know the cut of folks clothing in Sembia this season, and the shape and size of the coins used in ancient Myth Drannor. These are the sorts of things that make the Realms a living, breathing place for you (and hopefully your players). Knowing that, now we can start to see if the changes your proposing will help bring out this sort of detail in your "future" version of the Realms. Even though I am eliminating many of the Gods, it is not that I dislike the Gods. It's the fact that I feel that there are too many, and that it seems logically inconsistent that there would be competing pantheons of God's. Take Corellon Larethian for example. His portfolio is: Magic (especially High Elven Magic), music, arts, crafts, war, the Elven race (especially good aligned elves), poets, poetry, bards, and warriors. How many parts of his portfolio conflict with existing Gods? Why does Mystra even allow him to claim the portfolio of Magic (even if it focuses more on high Elven Magic), why does Arvoreen and Tempus not dispute the fact that they all three hold the War portfolio? Sure, it's realistic in the real world to have gods that have multiple portfolios, but the Realms are not the real world - these gods are real. They physically manifest themselves. It seems to me that there should be one, large, overarching pantheon of deities. It makes more sense. It might make more sense for you, but I think that that conclusion is very subjective and completely a personal decision. It would be impossible for us (in real life) to even begin to guess what would happen to us if diety-level powers could actually manifest them on a daily basis here on earth. There's no basis even for speculation. However, since we are dealing with a fantasy world, we can see if the current Realms collection of competing pantheons acts in a consistant and believeable fashion. It seems that a large portion of your problems seem to stem from each racial or regional pantheon having dieties that hold either the same or overlapping portfolios. While I can't speak for Ed Greenwood, Roger Moore, Julia Martin or Eric Boyd (who designed the magority of those dieties and pantheons), I can say that in my mind, having multiple dieties with similar portfolio's makes the Realms more realistic - not less. In ancient times here on our Earth, many cultures had different God-figures for similar things like war, fishing fertility, etc. Simply because those God-figures did not appear before their worshipers in the flesh on a daily basis didn't mean that the God-figures weren't real for those people. Wars, political intrigue and much strife happened as a result of having conflicting of competing God-figures. Quite frankly, having only one diety with each portfolio seems too cut and dry and too monotheistic for my tastes. It looses much of the regional flavor and unique regional detail that I enjoy about the Realms. But, that's just my opinion. Yours is different. What I still don't see is how the wholesale elimination of 2/3rd ofthe dieties will increase the fine detail that you profess to enjoy about the Realms? Where does having multiple pantheons overshadow the lower level detail that you enjoy? Wouldn't having regional dieties add to the low-level detail? I think so, but clearly you don't - so please tell me where and how I'm missing your point? I am also advancing the storyline of the Realms for roughly a century and a half. Also, since Toril is largely a medieval culture, I am putting more of a focus on the gritty and dark nature of the Realms. I have to strongly disagree with you here Meldread. The Realms has never been been a "medieval world" nor has it ever has a "gritty and dark" feel to it. Frankly, it's just the opposite. The Realms is a HIGH FANTASY world, with modern ideas like the equality of the sexes, democratic process, universal education (at least at the basic levels), proper hygene, stable and nutritional food sources, etc. All this non-medieval philosphy and social progress is made possible because of the HIGH FANTASY nature of the Realms. If you take the the HIGH MAGIC element out of the Realms, whatever is left over is just a bunch of well designed maps. Obviously, this is all just personal opinion - but I think you'll find it to be a strongly held opinion amoung most of the posters here. High Magic and modern social ideals are a necessary and essential component of the Realms. Without them, there would be no Forgotten Realms. The reason people such as Elminster and such pose a problem is because there is always this feeling that even if the players fail there will be someone else – someone powerful like Elminster, Drizzt or some other iconic character, to sweep in and save the day. That's only true if the DM uses the iconic NPC's in that fashion. I've DM'd the Realms since the publication of the first grey box set, and I can truthfully say that my players have never felt that Elminister, Drizzt or any other iconic NPC would either rescue them or upstage them. My players have met many of the iconic NPC's. They know what grows in Stom Silverhand's garden. They've appeared in court before King Azoun. They've ridden with Randal Morn and his Freedom Riders. Heck, some of them even know the color of Elminster's underwear! :eek: However, they've never been overshadowed by these iconic figures and have no delussions that if they fail on a mission, Elminister and the seven sisters will ride to their rescue. I want the players to feel that THEY are the heroes. That when they do something, they are doing something – and it is something that only they can do. I want the player to feel that good might not always beat evil, that evil has a very good chance of winning, and they are the only ones who can tip the balance. That's the same thing I want for my players as well. As far as I can tell, only the DM can make that feeling a reality. It doesn't matter what NPC's exist or don't exist in the world - only the ones that you (as the DM) choose to either use or not use appear in the story. The NPC's only appear at your command. The same goes for an evil run campaign. I want the players to feel that the things they do have a real impact on the world, and that some iconic good aligned character is not going to sweep in and wipe them out. So if an evil aligned campaign wishes to rise up and conquer a nation, they do not have to worry about that level 40+ Archmage dropping in on their little level 15-20 selves and wiping them out. See my above notes on NPC's The same logic applies. I love the lore of the Realms, and I do not intend on changing it. I just intend to add to it. I do not look at it as throwing stuff away, but rather progressing the storyline forward. Thay might not exist any longer, but would it not be interesting to find out what has happened to Thay? What happened to the Red Wizards after they lost their ability to use magic? (After the slave rebellions were quelled of course.) Adding to the lore of the Realms is an admirable goal. I don't think any would disagree with that goal. Likewise, writting and running adventures that take place in the ashes and ruins of kingdoms long dead is one of the classic parts of the Realms. So is the discovery of hidden magic and long-forgotten weapons and artifacts. These are all very good Realms plots. I'm still confused as to why you feel that you need to add 150 of Gods Wars and other huge changes to the current Realms in order to enjoy these sorts of adventurers. Are there not already plenty of ruined nations to explore? Are there not enough crumbled nations already for your purposes? It seems to me that you're going to an awful lot of effort in order to create things that already exist in large quantities in the current Realms. Now, perhaps I'm just lazy - or maybe I just have too little free time. But, it appears to me that you're looking to do a large amount of unnecessary work. If so, more power to you. What I want to accomplish with this is simple: I want a Realms where it draws on the core spirit of what makes the setting interesting and fun. Its history, its lore, its back story, the constant struggles between good and evil. I want to take that and make it more meaningful to those who adventure in my version of the Realms, by eliminating the stuff that seems to overshadow them. I think this is where we differ. I don't see the multiple pantheons, iconic NPC's and the High Magic nature of the current Realms setting overshadowing any of the core spirit of the setting. In fact, in my opinion, it is precisily those things that gives the Realms their core spirit. However, I understand that you don't agree with me and I respect your right to disagree. However, if you ask us to give you sound advice on how to change the current Realms and then say that you're going to toss out everything that (in my opinion) goes into the "core spirit" of the Realms, I'm going to warn you that I think you're headed in the wrong direction. The Realms is not a "dark and gritty" campaign world. Personally, I think trying to make it a dark and gritty world changes it from the Forgoten Realms into something else. What else, I'm not sure, but I don't think it stays as the Realms. It is a bit like entering a village as a D List Celebrity, only to be out classed when one of the Chosen or some other A List Celebrity arrives. It takes the wind out of the players sails, it makes what they accomplish seem less important and significant in comparison. I want a player to feel that their actions in a small backwater city are just as important and meaningful, as if they were battling demons and demigods. That is where I feel the Forgotten Realms are at its strongest point – down at the small level of details. That can all be accomplished without changing the current Realms on bit. As the DM, you have the power to make the players feel important. As the DM, you decide if and when the Gods say or do anything. As the DM, you can make sure the iconic NPC's never show up to "rescue" the PC's. There is no need to change the Realms one bit to make your PC's the star of the shows. I think your making an awful amount of work for yourself - and I'm not convinced that the result will satisfy you one bit. You say that you want to move back to the "core spirit" of the Realms, but I fear that your proposed changes will significantly alter that core spirit and the resulting setting will not have anything close to the "core spirit" you want to return to. Still, if you want to change the Realms, go ahead. But the first thing I would do if I were you would be to make a list of each aspect of the "core spirit" that you're wanting to emphisize in this new Realms. Once you have that list of core ideals, then you can figure out what gods survive and how things like magic and politics should change. That's the best advice I can give you for now.
Gellion 10-29-06, 12:42 PM	Meldread: Do what you want and ignore what people here think. If you and your players have fun then that is the most important thing.:)
GothicDan 10-29-06, 01:39 PM	Gellion... Do you really think that the OP was posting on a message board just so that everyone could tell him "DO WHAT YOU WANT!" I would find that incredibly rude and useless.
Halidan 10-29-06, 03:14 PM	Meldread: Do what you want and ignore what people here think. If you and your players have fun then that is the most important thing.:) Gellion - I'm not trying to be negative here. I am honestly trying to help Meldread accomplish his objective. I just have some concerns that the changes Meldread is proposing won't lead to the results he wants. I'm trying to make sure that his future Realms is one that will be enjoyable for him and his players.
Gellion 10-29-06, 04:16 PM	Gellion... Do you really think that the OP was posting on a message board just so that everyone could tell him "DO WHAT YOU WANT!" I would find that incredibly rude and useless. True, I was just trying to tell him that there is nothing wrong with his idea and that he should use it if it is what he really wants to do. Dan, I know I dont post much anymore, but I think me and you are pretty much opposites on many issues. Now, I was not meaning to be rude in my post, tone is hard to convey over the net, but I find your post rude, even though you may have not intended it to be.
GothicDan 10-29-06, 04:34 PM	True, I was just trying to tell him that there is nothing wrong with his idea and that he should use it if it is what he really wants to do. While I may not agree with the OP's stance, I think him intelligent enough to already know the obvious. He knows that it doesn't take any of us agreeing with him to do what he wants. But he wanted to know the opinions of others, anyway. Dan, I know I dont post much anymore, but I think me and you are pretty much opposites on many issues. Now, I was not meaning to be rude in my post, tone is hard to convey over the net, but I find your post rude, even though you may have not intended it to be. Why? Because I was pointing out that you were pointing out the obvious?
MasterGrazzt 10-29-06, 04:43 PM	In short, Illithids, come one, come all, free brains for everyone and no pesky spellcasters to fry you for your presumption. Illithid vs Psurlon... ROUND ONE! FIGHT!
Xavier_of_Cormyr 10-29-06, 04:48 PM	True, I was just trying to tell him that there is nothing wrong with his idea and that he should use it if it is what he really wants to do. Dan, I know I dont post much anymore, but I think me and you are pretty much opposites on many issues. Now, I was not meaning to be rude in my post, tone is hard to convey over the net, but I find your post rude, even though you may have not intended it to be. It was the CAPS in G-Dan's response, huh? There's a big difference between... "I hate the gods" & "I HATE THE GODS" yet another case of caps getting people into trouble :hides:
GothicDan 10-29-06, 04:53 PM	It was the CAPS in G-Dan's response, huh? There's a big difference between... "I hate the gods" & "I HATE THE GODS" yet another case of caps getting people into trouble I guess I'm just weird. As long as someone's telling me the truth of something, I don't care much how the tone of voice is used... If I say something stupid, and someone answers in a derogatory way, I figure I deserved it. ;)
Gellion 10-29-06, 04:56 PM	Yep, it was the caps, and like I said tone is hard to convey over the net so I may have misread you.:)
MasterGrazzt 10-29-06, 05:08 PM	I just want to mention that whatever someone does in their own private game doesn't somehow diminish or retcon anything else. I don't suffer sympathetic pain when someone decides to create and reveal the Lady of Pain's identity in their Planescape game, or have their characters fist fight an Antediluvian in a Vampire: the Masquerade chronicle.
GothicDan 10-29-06, 06:32 PM	Of course, it's pretty obvious just from the many posters on these boards that how one plays their games DOES affect the overall gaming population, in the long-run. The many, many examples of being having grown disaffected by the Chosen due to poor DMing shows this very well. :)
Sapp 10-29-06, 06:35 PM	Don't listen to them! Some of us support your mass deicide. Those gods were definitely asking for it!
Sapp 10-29-06, 08:38 PM	Gellion... Do you really think that the OP was posting on a message board just so that everyone could tell him "DO WHAT YOU WANT!" I would find that incredibly rude and useless. Damn. As much as I disagree with GothicDan's main argument, I have to agree with this tangent. I loathe the restrictive political correctness and sensitivity I'm seeing so often on the boards. The boards aren't (or shouldn't be) a headquarters for self-help groups. Unless the OP states specifically that he/she wants no criticism (which would be kind of lame), it's all fair game.
Ironferret 10-29-06, 09:05 PM	Do what ever like I always say Jest read the first few pages of the DMG and do what you will. This is your interpretations of the Realms not mine knock yourself out.:cool:
meigin 10-29-06, 09:06 PM	I gotta say - agree and disagree. the idea of nuking Faerun is little far, and frankly reminds me (players) of the opulent child - mum i want this - "NO" - i don't want to play anymore. If your making changes because of this - on one level get new players - never bow to their demands unless it suits your purpose. On the next level if your nuking Faerun to get at them (technically giving them their wishes in a warped sense) good - hammer them the game should be challenging. That said - I don't beleive this is the reasoning behind what your doing, I think you have a new idea albeit curried by exposure to other historical D&D and are running with it - and thats fine really. But if you want to express it - especially in a realm full of CANNON (caps needed here) then you're going to face some abject response. Here's a tip - don't defend your position with justifying remarks it's a sign of weakness and these guys will eat you alive - won't you (points at everyone :shocked:) On the flip side I don't mind your raw idea - but don't think Faerun is the place for it - maybe your own setting would be the place - it sounds like you have a lot of plans / ideas - have a think about it. I love Forgotten Realms and we play it here - but I also utilise my own world with its unique flavour as well - this is where I can let loose and it fits nicely. FR has a flavour taste it - if you like keep drinking - if not spit out and buy Eberron :gah: - oops did i say that - oh well. anyway - your campaign - you should do as you want ultimately.
GothicDan 10-29-06, 09:07 PM	Do what ever like I always say Jest read the first few pages of the DMG and do what you will. This is your interpretations of the Realms not mine knock yourself out. Another example of Sapp's and my point. ;) How exactly does this contribute in any way to what the OP wanted to discuss? Obviously, in the end, everyone does what they want...
MasterGrazzt 10-29-06, 09:27 PM	It contributes because it informs him of someone's opinion. Do what thou wilt. I agree with that point of view. However, I think saying it once is enough. Also, there's a middle-point that must be reached between emptyheaded, grinning booby factory, where everyone loves and coddles each other, and squabbling, sweat-stained, nerdhole. For the most part, that is maintained. Also, I think a lot of people aren't actually reading the posts that they consider tl;dr and are just saying "HEY MAN DO WHAT YOU WANT" so as not to seem like a fat dork who nasally whines about someone else's game.
GothicDan 10-29-06, 10:00 PM	It contributes because it informs him of someone's opinion. Do what thou wilt. I agree with that point of view. I do too. However, if it so happens that it also happens to be what -I'd- do, then it's even better. ;) However, I think saying it once is enough. I always thought it was pretty much understood, myself. Also, there's a middle-point that must be reached between emptyheaded, grinning booby factory, where everyone loves and coddles each other, and squabbling, sweat-stained, nerdhole. For the most part, that is maintained. Sweat-stained? Ew! Gross! Also, I think a lot of people aren't actually reading the posts that they consider tl;dr and are just saying "HEY MAN DO WHAT YOU WANT" so as not to seem like a fat dork who nasally whines about someone else's game. Hammer, meet head of nail. (I'm not avoiding doing my homework or nothin'.)
Sapp 10-30-06, 12:45 AM	Also, I think a lot of people aren't actually reading the posts that they consider tl;dr and are just saying "HEY MAN DO WHAT YOU WANT" so as not to seem like a fat dork who nasally whines about someone else's game. As opposed to a fat dork who nasally whines or cries about someone else's post? Anyway, to the OP... I do tend to be overenthusiastic about any ideas involving the death of several lame deities at a time... of which, FR has many. No offense. However, I do understand some of the points others have been making, and it does seem to make sense. If you are going to change a setting so much, it might be easier simply to "hand-wave" the deities away. The pantheon already changes enough already, and it might be hard to keep track of it all. I'm not sure about your playgroup, but if your players own FR material, existing material serves as a good common point of reference for everyone. Making so many changes, you'll need a way to keep your players informed (newsgroup, website, mailing-group, etc). Not just that, you need to keep them interested. It might not be a huge deal for you, but there's also the sociological affect it will have on your playgroup as well. You have much more responsibility on your shoulders. Making fewer changes, you can blame lameness on the setting itself, "Hey, don't blame ME that that deity is so lame, blame FR writers and designers!" By changing so much, you open yourself to criticism. Now you have both the rules/dynamics and flavor to worry about. It's one of the main perks of buying a campaign setting instead of creating a homebrew. That said, I still hate many of the lame deities you've killed off (and thus am glad that they were killed in your alternate universe/history of the Realms), and eagerly await more details, if there are more to be offered.
MasterGrazzt 10-30-06, 02:46 AM	As opposed to a fat dork who nasally whines or cries about someone else's post? I see you misunderstood, which is reasonable, considering the way I phrased my original sentiment. I guess basically what I'm trying to say is that I wasn't insulting anyone, I just understood the reason behind so many "hey man, like, do what you want" posts as people clicking on this thread, seeing a block of text, realizing the thread is about drastic changes to FR canon for someone's personal game, and realizing that if one says "Hey, you should just do what you feel is right! It is, after all, your own game!" that they'll seem to be the "feelgood nerd who breaks the mold!", even if a few other people are expressing the same thing. It's okay. It's not the end of the world. I agree that people who are very passionate about something are more likely to be vitriolic about it. It happens in every interest, from soap operas, to racing, to wood carving. It isn't restricted to the classic nerd interests. But we do have a reputation for it. I can understand where the Political Correctness comes from. Everyone is tired of discussions about whether Batman is better than Superman, or if Kirk is a better commander than Picard, or just how evil Iuz is turning into near-fistfights. We don't need to see it. We've had our fill. But this has become a classic case of throwing out the baby with the bathwater. Just because we don't want that garbage starting up doesn't mean we've lost the right to speak out against things we don't like. Or comment on some idea someone comes up with. Complain all you like. Just realize you're not the centre of the universe. Just because you express distate for something doesn't mean it explodes and all it's fans are hit with lightning. It will go on. Personally, I don't like the comic book writer Chuck Austen. A lot. But I realize he's not going to vanish if I hate him hard enough. I think I might have more to say on this, and would welcome a discussion on just how we, as unashamed nerds, should handle dissent. But right now, I'm going to bed.
Meldread 10-30-06, 03:25 AM	...and I'll bring this back around to my original post. I want to thank everyone who responded. After reading some of the posts and thinking things over (which is why I posted here - I needed outside prospective) I think I probably went just a bit too far. Basically, I just wanted to do something really interesting and take the Realms and throw a new spin / face on it. Not throw 99.9% of it in the trash. I didn't look at it as throwing anything away, but rather expanding it and making it seem more vibrant. (I looked at it as a historical event that took place and had major repercussions.) In any case, I think i'll just do a Homebrew. My players love the Forgotten Realms, but honestly - I'm a bit burned out. This was mostly my attempt to shake things up and make things "new and interesting" while at the same time getting rid of all the things about it that always bothered me. I might just pick up another setting or go through the work (but rewarding work!) of creating a Homebrew.
MasterGrazzt 10-30-06, 03:30 AM	Homebrew is probably the best way to go. It'll eliminate the "but but but I like so and so!" that will probably happen. Not that you shouldn't be able to experiment with an established setting regardless.
Halidan 10-30-06, 10:02 AM	In any case, I think i'll just do a Homebrew. My players love the Forgotten Realms, but honestly - I'm a bit burned out. This was mostly my attempt to shake things up and make things "new and interesting" while at the same time getting rid of all the things about it that always bothered me. I might just pick up another setting or go through the work (but rewarding work!) of creating a Homebrew. That's certainly one answer, and I wish you luck and I hope that the homebrew works well for you. Since you say that your players "love the Realms" my advice would be to find out what specific elements of the realms they really care about. If what they love is reading about the epic stories taking place in Realms in the host of novels and short stories, you'll have to tell them that this new homebrew won't have fiction department supporting the game world. :yuck: On the other hand, if what they like about the Realms is the level of detail, or the many ancient civilizations, or anything else you already plan on including in your homebrew, then you can let them know that this new world will have plenty of those elements. Homebrews are lots of work. My advice is to steal elements from whatever game and/or game setting that you enjoy and add them to your own ideas. Over the years, I've discovered that building a homebrewed world is very rewarding and lots of fun. I wish I still had time to game in my homebrew rpg world. Good luck.
Xavier_of_Cormyr 10-30-06, 11:51 AM	Another example of Sapp's and my point. ;) How exactly does this contribute in any way to what the OP wanted to discuss? Obviously, in the end, everyone does what they want... Except those LN people out there... a bunch of lemmings is what that lot are! :D (just kidding Gothic D.... i know you love being LN)
r4zor 10-31-06, 07:55 AM	It will begin with a conspiracy between Shar and Cyric, the two most powerful evil deities. They will use the Shadow Weave to "poison" Mystra, by forcing her to merge the Shadow Weave and the Weave into one. The corrupting nature of the Shadow Weave will drive Mystra insane, and Cyric will attempt to slay her. Shadow Weave might not drive Mystra insane and if it does Cyric would probably suggest that Shar should slay the mad goddes herself. However, unknown to him Shar also forged a pack with Mask, who she views as a much steadier ally. Shar and Cyric use their combined power (and some powerful artifact) to block Ao and his influence from Toril. Cyric attacks the insane Mystra, but before he can finish her off Mask arrives and assaults the weakened Cyric. Shar opens a portal for Mystra to escape, but it leads to a trap, where Shar kills Mystra, taking the portfolios of Magic, Spells and the Weave for herself. I'm unheard of any powerful artifacts that could block Ao. Portfolio sence would allow Cyric to sence Shar's betrayal. Shar would not ally with Mask since they're enemies as Shar hopes to steal Mask's shadow portfolio. Cyric escapes Mask, but ends up losing the portfolios of intrigue, deception and illusions to Mask. The balance in the Realms shifts. Cyric slays Mask, preventing his return. Mask is no more. Without Ao constantly looking over the Gods shoulder keeping things in check, old hatreds and rivalries re-emerge. Shar finds Selune and destroys her, but before she dies, Selune gives all of her essence (and portfolios) to Eilistraee for safekeeping. Fine with me. Selune is no more. Lathander acts swiftly as well, he has been waiting for the moment to bring about the Dawn Cataclysm redux, where he can eliminate all the other Gods and start afresh. Lathander manages to find a way to force all the gods – including himself – down into Toril as mortals similar to the Time of Troubles. Being a fool as he is, Lathander forces himself only down into Toril and is destroyed by some rival deity. Lathander is no more. Cyric is badly weakened; he has a bit of déjà vu and remembers the last holder of the portfolio of murder being in a similar state. Cyric starts to panic as he feels the noose around his neck tighten, but is approached by Gargauth, who offers him an alliance. Together they slay Bane and Cyric gains the portfolios of Strife, Fear and Hatred. Gargauth gains the portfolio of Tyranny. Being more powerful than ever Cyric slays both Gargauth and Bane who have allied against him. Bane and Gargauth are no more. Meanwhile, Shar and Mask are up to dirty deeds in the Underdark. Mask deceives both Vhaeraun and Lolth into coming to Menzoberranzan. Vhaeraun arrives thinking Mask is going to help him destroy Lolth, and Lolth arrives thinking she’ll destroy Vhaeraun - but the jokes on them because Shar kills them both… along with everyone within Menzoberranzan. Lolth is a supreme leader of the Underdark and noone dares to challange her. The Godswar lasts for a period of five years and eight months. During that time it seems as if Lathander and Shar are in a competition to see how many Gods they can eliminate before they are the only ones left. Lathander slays many including, but not limited to: Garagos (whose portfolios end up going to Tempus), Talona, Siamorphe, Auril, Shaundakul, Umberlee, and wounds Kossuth badly - forcing him to lose the portfolio of purification through fire (which ends up in the hands of one of Kossuth's High Priests on Toril who rises to the status of a demigod.) Kossuth doesn't give a damn about Godswar and lives happily on the plane of shadow. The final battle culminates between Shar, Mask, Helm, Ilmater, Tyr, Torm, Azuth, and Corellon Larethian. During that battle, Shar and Mask destroy Corellon and Tyr, but Shar is badly wounded and ends up losing the portfolios she stole from Mystra. They end up falling into the hands of Azuth, who becomes the new Lord of Magic, Guardian of the Weave. The final battle culminates between Shar, the Triad, Malar, Azuth, Eilistraee, Tempus and an army of lesser deities who kill each other as Cyric has planned. The Seldarine is out of this as they gathered all elves on Evermeet and surrounded it with the most powerful Mythal. Cyric gains all available portfolios and is now truly the One. What happens to the Realms? You should probably guess. And Meldread, your story's really awsome, but just not acceptable for a follower of Cyric. I must admit it is really worth reading. Good luck mate.
Joni-san 10-31-06, 01:19 PM	Random thoughts: I was thinking about the Ao thingy and perhaps you could use the Far Realm for possible Overgod bothering forces. I was wondering what happened to most of the neutral gods, Gond in particular. Because magic is gone people would start using technology more actively, which would be a plus for Gond.
johnkretzer 10-31-06, 02:32 PM	First the AO thingy is possible because well Ao has bosses who said his bosses don't have enemies. Just pointing this possible. Second the amount of iconic NPCs in the FR is overwhelming. Though you don't have to nuke them all ans start over. Personaly Drizzt Do'Urden doesn't exist in my world why? Because one of my players were already playing a drow ranger in the north (before the books were published), Sorry PCs characters take precendent over a NPC. If you read the description most of the powerful people in the realms are considered retired. Or busy. If you look at it one way evil and good are in balanced. The PCs are the heros who tip that balance. The gods are too many but there level of involvment is what the GM decides it will be. You don't have tu nuke them for it. Also I'll point out that the god where cast down because they were ignoring their followers. So they get punished for doing it and for not doing it? And lastly though I know you are going with the homebrew world idea. Cultural aspects depend on the players and GM. let the events overshadow stuff make the adventure more about the PCs, their are many kinds of heros. And if you 150 years without gods or magic in FR you would proably end up destroying the culture and color text.
johnkretzer 10-31-06, 02:39 PM	Gellion... Do you really think that the OP was posting on a message board just so that everyone could tell him "DO WHAT YOU WANT!" I would find that incredibly rude and useless. People disagreeing with you isn't the only way to test a idea. For instance if I have a idea and I ran it by the boards. sapp posts "I love the idea" that will tell me it is proably a bad idea and need to rethink it. Just kidding. sapp is proably capable of getting some good iseas. But my point is still valid. Also if all you get is disagreements from people without counter arguement from people then it isn't a balanced discussion.
GothicDan 10-31-06, 03:07 PM	Except those LN people out there... a bunch of lemmings is what that lot are! (just kidding Gothic D.... i know you love being LN) I was thinking the same of the Chaotic's. ;) Also if all you get is disagreements from people without counter arguement from people then it isn't a balanced discussion. I'm not sure what you mean here? Pointing out a flaw in an argument is effectively the entire basis for the 'Negative' side in modern Western rhetoric. It's considered illegal to even attempt a counter-plan to 'fix' the problem. That's where you let the original person's brain do the walking. If my teacher looks at my physics work, and points out a problem, I can typically fix it without him telling me how to fix it, specifically. It may not be quite so clear-cut in more artistic venues, but the basic idea is the same. --------------------------------------------------- To the OP: Homebrew is incredibly fun! I've been making worlds for years. I write hundreds of pages on history and culture and religion... Get bored, toss it, or sometimes archive it, and usually start up a new one in a few days. ;) The key is to build everything you want into your world, and if that means stealing things from other settings pretty directly, that's fine - as long as you still have fun. I try very hard not to do this, but that's in large part because world creation to me is an art and an achievement itself; the roleplaying that can be had from it is often secondary to me.
johnkretzer 11-01-06, 01:43 AM	I was thinking the same of the Chaotic's. ;) I'm not sure what you mean here? Pointing out a flaw in an argument is effectively the entire basis for the 'Negative' side in modern Western rhetoric. It's considered illegal to even attempt a counter-plan to 'fix' the problem. That's where you let the original person's brain do the walking. If my teacher looks at my physics work, and points out a problem, I can typically fix it without him telling me how to fix it, specifically. It may not be quite so clear-cut in more artistic venues, but the basic idea is the same. My point is that if you agree you should post it. It shows that a person doesn't see a problem with your idea. Though it is helpful if you give supportive agruements to back up his/her ideas.
Zsych 11-01-06, 04:33 AM	On killing Mystra: Mystra is a being tied to the Weave, part of her divine power comes from there. Without the Weave(if it were possible), Mystra might be a very weak goddess(counting her worshippers). Shar copied the Weave, in her Shadow-weave, so it is similar to what Mystra is, but she probably didn't copy the innate consciousness part, keeping herself seperate from the Shadow-weave... However she does understand the Weave quite well.. enough to make a mindless copy. ... So might she not be able to craft a spell(or whatever), that would seperate the Weave's mind from it's existence? Do that and Mystra becomes an insect, easily squashed. ... Who would control the Weave later is a seperate issue, but I would expect that all of the gods would find themselves in the position of either having to obey Shar on Toril, or attack her in her home domain(where they should have no problems using magic, but would be at a disadvantage, so lots of gods would need to pool their resources together) ... This way, a lot of gods end up dead, and the two magic sources could end up ungoverned. Add an Imaskari style barrier(if it was Shadow-magic, Shar might know it), against all the local gods, except herself and her allies, and those gods who do survive the battle with Shar and her allies, might find that they still can't contact their believers. Ao took a long long time to take down the barrier the last time. IMO, it was beyond his power to do so until he understood it well enough to counter it. ... By the time he counters it this time(lets say a few hundred years)... minor gods, not showing any signs of their existence will have been given up. Even the greater gods would no longer retain much in the way of faith, since only the blind faith lot would believe in them to any significant degree.. for the rest, even if they do the rituals, they'll likely do it without faith(as many do in our world :)) --- Clerical power being dependent on gods... I expect that there would be decent level clerics in a while, after the gods can once again contact the world. Wizards... would not have been hurt... since magic might still be working(apart from whatever limits Shar placed on it) ... of course, if you kill the Weave(and Shadow-weave... Shar could choose to limit them to stop people from interfering with her bringing about the darkness)... then even if they are restored... there would be no magical knowledge to work with. Wizards would have no way of finding spells. No one to guide them to 1st level even :) (although if Mystra were back, she may be able to spread the knowledge) ---------------------------------------------------------- All this is a bit extreme though. If you want your characters to become extremely powerful relative to their world, you only need to DM things that way. Give them more world effecting quests(luckily). Let them come in possession of items, or go on quests that give a lot of experience. Have them serve gods, and let the gods be pleased with their service.. maybe granting them super-weapons :) (one wonders, if any of this really sounds interesting to anyone) ---- Let wizards come from other worlds with artifacts that allow targets to be imbued with knowledge(/feats) for a price... That would also let you create some rather twisted enemies from time to time, among those who have the money to buy interesting stuff.
KismetRose 11-02-06, 04:49 PM	I've made some definite changes to the Realms in my D&D game, though not on the same scale, so I thought I'd toss my two cents your way. My take on the iconic FR NPCs is that they're not guest stars unless you write them in; generally speaking, they exist off in their own adventures, taking care of their own concerns. The thing about titanic NPCs is that they have other titanic NPCs to oppose them and don't tend to have a lot of time for the little guy. The official NPCs are also not necessarily YOUR NPCs; you don't have to run them. For myself, I pick and choose which of the stock NPCs live or die, since some of them are all right and a couple I actually like. I see no reason to flush the good out with those I can't stand, but that's my decision. You might want to look over the NPCs you're going to be wasting before you carve their deaths in stone. As for the gods: I don't see the reason why people complain about there being too many gods in Faerun. Just because there are a billion brands of cereal doesn't mean you have to buy and eat all of them. Generally speaking, people worship the major gods and their temples are the most common in large population centers. Some folks stick to the lesser gods, and the various races tend to worship their racial pantheons, but this worship is not always public or pronounced. What this means is that you can always choose to focus on the gods most appropriate to the area and effectively forget the rest. Are there any gnomes in the party? Are they going to be a big part of the game? If not, you can probably cross the gnome pantheon off your list. I also don't see the problem with gods having the same portfolios given that the pantheons are separate and that people have different reasons for worshipping gods. Corellon is the father of magic for the elves, while Mystra is the embodiment of the Weave which enables magic for all of Faerun. The elves know that the gods are real just like everyone else in Faerun, and they know that Corellon first brought them magic. They know he's the father of their race. Mystra's all fine and good for enabling magic for Toril, but Corellon has meaning for them that she simply does not have. A lot of people come to the Forgotten Realms because it is a higher magic setting. Making it a lower magic game in the short run can work well for highlighting the difference: "See, now weren't those healing spells NICE? Don't you just miss the hell out of those?" But making the Forgotten Realms a lower magic game for the long haul could sap a vital something from the setting. So much of the Realms is linked to magic; read back through the setting book and it's everywhere, making the FR a magical place to be. Really consider how things will look and feel with these sorts of changes in place. I'm actually all in favor of a darker, grittier FR. I've done work in my game to keep it high fantasy but to use a lot more gray and black in painting that fantasy. You can get this sort of effect without a sweeping cataclysm. In fact, you can make things darker and grittier using only the smaller things. Show the players that heroes aren't always the best people. Show them that the heroes lose sometimes or they have to sacrifice a lot to win the day - and that they suffer afterwards. Show them evil folks with real power and real smarts. Show them the sorts of things that evil people do to others. Things like this can be really effective and memorable. I'm wondering if you have a specific group of players that you game with. If so, you might want to ask them what they think. While you might not like a specific god, your players might be quite attached to them. This is not the biggest concern, however. Your players might mind very much being in a low to mid magic setting when they were expecting the typical, higher magic FR. Check with them before running this.
Zsych 11-04-06, 03:51 AM	... I think that all it really takes to revitalize the realms is for one of those serious evil plans to end up properly completed. Disrupt some of the balance of the gods. Disrupt the balance of the countries(let's say Thay becomes more powerful and successfully manages to conquer Aglarond as well :)) Then Thay is eyeing the world, lots of rich people still depend on Thay and want to stay in it's good graces. Lots of the weaker lords are actually trying to form alliances with Thay rather than be crushed... Cormyr... is probably not in good shape anyway. And let's add an imminent alliance between the Shades and Thay. .. I'd say the repercussions are enough to seriously change FR. ... Let Shade raise a few more enclaves, and acquire knowledge from the newly revealed Imaskari to increase their power, and further Shar's agenda... Things could quickly become ugly. ---- or basically, you just need one RSE, that actually manages to shake the Realms instead of the extremely limited area they usually manage to effect. Free some ancient evil dragons (dragon mages perhaps, along with a god of theirs) from before the Dragon rages started(who possibly put themselves to sleep until the magic passed, knowing that it would, but not knowing that it would take millenia). Let them try to restore things to the way they used to be in their time, and let Sammaster help them.... or the return of powerful evil dragons could just make existing dragon gods(like Tiamat?) stronger, making thing problematic for the Faerunian pantheon(under further restrictions from Ao) The 'this must happen, for reasons you are too simple minded to concieve' card, is interesting from time to time. Even more so, if it's being done to gods(and not to mortals by gods)
Faraer 11-04-06, 01:22 PM	Some points to remember: The gods almost never act directly in the Realms as suggested in the first post. Although folk know the gods exist, there is no certain knowledge of them, outside the personal experience of direct divine connection. The descriptive point of view of Faiths & Avatars or Faiths and Pantheons isn't one available in the Realms. The demihuman religions are secretive; the average human hasn't even heard of any of the demihuman gods. The pantheons don't compete with each other.
The_Undertaker 11-09-06, 11:18 AM	Sounds Intresting but the realms is like 75% magic and deity and it'd really be killing the world to do that. Maybe you should think of instead of killing them have a all out god war and have your players try and stop the war or save the gods they belive are worth saving that way they feel something in knowing that they shaped the world forever. Also for some side notes if you wanna try and block AO try using something like along the lines of " Zuoken (the psion demigod) gained enough psionic power to block AO temporaly. I belive Corellon Larethian is actually Melikki in the Realms also.
GothicDan 11-10-06, 02:06 PM	Mielikki exists in both pantheons, though her name isn't the same among the Seldarine.
Zsych 11-11-06, 10:21 AM	Trying to stop a gods war should be an interesting experience. Trying to make it so that you're not bugs in the war should be interesting too... A few good unexpected epic spells for dealing with gods might come in handy to raise your threat level to the point that gods will actually notice you(along with some epic defences(like god proof contingency spells) so that they don't end up squashing you ten seconds after noticing you :)).
Rauric 11-13-06, 03:03 PM	I love it when people post this type of stuff. It would be like going on the Eberron forums saying that I'm going to get rid of Skyships, Dragonmarks, and Warforged and expect everyone to respond "Thats an awesome idea buddy". When people come on a settings Forums and explain how they are going to drastically change the campaign setting that most of the posters love, what do you think the response will be? Probably "Great, you just created a Homebrew world braniac!" Hope the poster wan't expecting eveyone to love his idea.
Joni-san 11-13-06, 04:24 PM	I think somebody actually did that once. Not sure.
Melblen_Cairn 11-13-06, 05:11 PM	I have been running campaigns in the realms for most of my DMing career. I have toyed with the idea of the possibilty of a dramatic catacalysmic event of this magnitude. My ideas are usually rooted in the actions of something my Players would have a major part in though. I applaud your idea in that if you are looking to change a setting to suit your's and your group's needs but still use all the sourcebooks you have accumulated. I wouldnt go that far quite yet as there is tons of stuff that still interests my players. If things were to become stale is some way for them or myself then I would consider rocking the world with a huge event and bring it to near extinction. If your looking for some more ideas to go along with your setting check out the 2E Apocolypse Stone module. It might help you out a bit.
Rauric 11-16-06, 09:40 AM	I think somebody actually did that once. Not sure. Some guy came here once saying he made one or two of his players gods and his other players worshipped them. They were going to take over the Realms or start a war with the other gods. He said how could he do it and everyone through the "AO clause" in his face. I do not think he came back after that.
Avalon 11-23-06, 01:42 AM	I'm killing them off too. I'm running a very epic campaign that's come all the way up from first level; I think we started in 2000. I chose to do most of the work behind the scenes. While my pc's were in the epic city of Union, Mystra was murdered. This caused magic to fail and the resulting struggle amongst the gods has yet to yield a new god of magic. Basically that has let me make all travel to and from Faerun blocked. So the pc's continue adventuring based out of Union while I adjust the gods without having to have the holy wars be under pc scrutiny. That way I can paint in broader strokes and not sweat so many of the details. So far it's going very well.
miscellany 11-23-06, 04:32 AM	Well Mr. Meldread I hope you come back some time to tell us all how it went. And don't let the bookworms get you down. Just have fun with your fellow gamers. Did you have any ideas yet on how to insert the player characters into all of this newness? Yo-Yo Ma grunts sometimes when he plays cello. I've heard him do it from five rows away. Intense dude.
clevercommie 11-24-06, 11:21 AM	so you killed off corellon... boy do you suck.
Gellion 11-24-06, 02:39 PM	so you killed off corellon... boy do you rule. FIFY.:)
Derren S. 11-24-06, 03:02 PM	An interesting idea. It reminds me of all the things which lead to WW1. What about the deities of the other Pantheons/races? I assume they were also all killed? And don't worry about the Mind Flayer. Psionic is linked to magic in the realms and when the weave does not work so does psionic. So they would face a huge slave rebellion. A problem is that without magic humans and the other PHB races have no chance to defend themself against monsters like giants etc. The elves would probably suffer most as they rely so heavily on magic. And imo its very possible that in the 150 years without magic someone will take the chance and attack Evermeet if he can get enough ships for that.
GothicDan 11-24-06, 08:44 PM	Psionic is linked to magic in the realms and when the weave does not work so does psionic. Incorrect.
Derren S. 11-25-06, 03:09 AM	You are right. I forgot about the psionic revision in the Player Guide. So unless AO creates a huge antimagic field which contains whole Toril the psionic races will indeed rule.
GothicDan 11-26-06, 02:51 PM	Psionics were NEVER connected to the Weave. It's not a revision. As far back as some of the first Drizzt books, we have psionic Drow taking advantage during the Time of Troubles (beginning of 2E) when the magic-using clergy was at a loss for power.
Karsus the Mad 11-26-06, 03:09 PM	I think the only revision was that even tho' psionics don't draw on a weave, they're still magical in nature, thus interact with other magic the same.
GothicDan 11-26-06, 03:20 PM	That actually makes them a little less dangerous, if you ask me. :)
Karsus the Mad 11-26-06, 03:22 PM	That actually makes them a little less dangerous, if you ask me. :) I think that's why they did it. To make them more "balanced" for gameplay. Such a silly word, "balance"...
BrennonGoldeye 11-26-06, 04:40 PM	Balance is totally a creation of the mind of man. It exists nowhere in nature. Never has, never will. Yipee!:dancin:
Karsus the Mad 11-26-06, 07:27 PM	Balance is totally a creation of the mind of man. It exists nowhere in nature. Never has, never will. Yipee!:dancin: Oddly, I, KtM, agree 100% with you, BG. I hate the concept of "balance" in a PnP game. I always assume it was the DM's job to do so. For those DM's that argue, all I have to say is "You shouldn't be a DM then." I hope that doesn't get me into trouble:D But if it does, I'm K. I have 41 levels, all spellcaster. I'll burn ye all back to 1e!:P Ok, ok. Just playing, of course:P
Alediran 11-27-06, 08:14 AM	so you killed off corellon... boy do you suck. I agree :mad: This angry elf will kick his bony ass until it becomes undead.