I shall smite thee [Archive] - Wizards Community

I shall smite thee [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Gregz
02-24-04, 06:09 PM How would a lawful good paladin of Torm justify to a neutral character the slaying of followers of cyric and bane
Lashan
02-24-04, 06:50 PM Agents of pure evil, such as Cyric and Bane, are out to undermine and destroy society as we know it. If given their way, they would throw down the established laws of society that protect the weak. The agents of evil would work to turn people away from the gods of good and establish temples to their dark ways. Death and slavery for most of the population is the goal of many evil gods. If one scares away one of these agents of evil, then they will simply regroup and find a sneakier way to slit your throat while you sleep. The only true way to stop the agents of evil and their agenda of death and peversity is to smite them. Track them down to the dark holes that they crawled out of and smite them in the glory of Torm. Track down every trace and hint of evil and smite it before it grows into a nest of unholy terror bent on the overthrow of all that is good and sacred.

Of course, this is just one way of looking at it...
Darth K'Trava
02-25-04, 03:47 PM Simple: it's part of their Code and Dogma. And point to the requisite text in their holy book.

If that doesn't convince them, then actions *DO* speak louder than words! :devil:
Morka
02-25-04, 05:11 PM Like Lashan said, agents of evil are out to undermine and destroy society as we know it.

And the victims should be everyone, be it followers of other evil deities, neutral and good peoples. Since a neutral character should have less remorse than a good one, I doubt that such character should have any scrupule to slay them.

However, followers of deities like Ilmater, Eldath & Selune should show some reluctance before the slaughter of sensitive beings. Did they get a just trial? Did they get a chance to repent?
Mirtek
02-25-04, 05:28 PM IMO a paladin should never lose the hope that redemption is possible even for a cleric of Cyric or Bane.

Of course, if they are fighting for their lives, the paladin shouldn't take special care not to kill them, but if he happens to be able to get one of them captured (e.g. by dropping him to negative HP) he mustn't slay them on the spot.

That would be evil and no different from the ways of Bane and Cyric.
Cherrn
02-25-04, 05:53 PM When Scyllua Darkhope spared the life of the pitfiend Lord Orgauth she became a fallen paladin. One thing I think we should remember is that being a paladin is not the same as being a Jedi. A jedi would have to spare a beaten foe's life or fall to the dark side. A paladin shouldn't spare the life of a beaten foe because the beaten foe is a tool of evil, and to have him live on would just risk the foe comitting more evil.
primemover003
02-25-04, 06:13 PM Originally posted by Cherrn
When Scyllua Darkhope spared the life of the pitfiend Lord Orgauth she became a fallen paladin. One thing I think we should remember is that being a paladin is not the same as being a Jedi. A jedi would have to spare a beaten foe's life or fall to the dark side. A paladin shouldn't spare the life of a beaten foe because the beaten foe is a tool of evil, and to have him live on would just risk the foe comitting more evil.
And the Fact that a Pit Fiend is an ultimate representation of true evil. It's not like she had a Human or Orc fallen before her... she had a master manipulator, skilled at turning feelings of mercy into a tool of evil waiting to bring her down... and so she fell.
Mirtek
02-25-04, 06:48 PM Even Pit Fiends and Demons can be redeemed. WotC has shown us plenty official examples. Likewise we have official examples of fallen celestials. Well, that just on the side.

Anyway, the paladin Scyllua Darkhope fell before the forces of evil. The Pit Fiend slew her through his dark words where he couldn't slay her with his claws and magic.

That's a sad fate and a fate which can befall any paladin.

Scyllua Darkhope the paladin is as dead as she would have been if the Pit Fiend had killed her body.

But is that justification to lose hope? The abandon what's good and become as merciless as the evil the paladins fight? To become exactly like the evils they battle?

If this is the answer, then there's no need for further battle. Evil has already won and good has lost.

It was not the act of mercy which caused Scyllua's fall for grace. She fell because she became caught in Orgauth's sweet words and promises of power.

In a way she and Orgauth fought a second battle, as sincere as the clash of steel and spells.

And, most important, never forget: The final act of her fall, the act which at last pushed her completly over the edge, was when she killed Orgauth.

Yes, not when she showed him mercy, but when she killed him she turned away from light.
Morka
02-25-04, 07:31 PM Heh, in what book can I find this history?
J. Grenemyer
02-26-04, 03:00 AM Hello,

I suppose the simple answer would be to point out that Paladins (and Clerics) of Torm are foresworn to uphold the Penance of Duty, which itself sprang from the lips of Torm’s most faithful after said God discovered the corruption rife within his church during the Time of Troubles. Part of this Penance is the task of upholding the Debt of Dereliction, which states, ”…Torm’s agents must expend every resource possible to eliminate cults of Cyric and Bane…”

This by itself ought to be justification enough, even for a neutral sort of character.

I think that any Lawful Good Paladin of Torm would respect the viewpoints of those who are not evil; more so if those viewpoints happen to be those held by his closest associates (namely the other players). But even then a Paladin of Torm (or for that matter a Paladin of any Deity) would not allow such viewpoints to supercede his own, much less interfere with his sense of duty.

And so it is that such a Paladin might very well cite the Dogma of Bane and Cyric (which leads agents of those dread gods to seek to overturn order, strike down those of Good heart, undo society and leave chaos in their wake at every possible turn) as reason for vanquishing servants of those gods whenever and wherever possible.

That said, I can still imagine a Paladin of Tyr calling out to his foes when practical, admonishing them to quit their evil ways and join the cause of Good. And I can also imagine him taking care to be merciful and give quarter to his foes, but not so much so that he compromise his (and his companions) integrity and safety.

That last is most important: For if his enemy charges him with sword in hand, no Paladin of Torm would hesitate to meet his foe and stand firm for the cause of Good, regardless of how great his desire to see his foes redeemed.

Ultimately I think it is most important to remember that it’s just a game; albeit a game that can be taken as seriously (or not so seriously) as those who sit around the table playing together want to take it. (Which is why responses proffered up to these sorts of Paladin questions oftentimes seem too serious to some yet entirely inadequate to others.)

Anywhoo, have a nice day!

:D
Morka
02-26-04, 08:48 AM Originally posted by J. Grenemyer

That last is most important: For if his enemy charges him with sword in hand, no Paladin of Torm would hesitate to meet his foe and stand firm for the cause of Good, regardless of how great his desire to see his foes redeemed.

Heh, no one is so Lawful Stupid or Chaotic Stupid ;)

I guess even a priest of Eldath, with all the vows of non-violence possible, will not interfere a friend killing a charging foe! (As long as there is no more Enchantment spell available...)

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Gregz 02-24-04, 06:09 PM	How would a lawful good paladin of Torm justify to a neutral character the slaying of followers of cyric and bane
Lashan 02-24-04, 06:50 PM	Agents of pure evil, such as Cyric and Bane, are out to undermine and destroy society as we know it. If given their way, they would throw down the established laws of society that protect the weak. The agents of evil would work to turn people away from the gods of good and establish temples to their dark ways. Death and slavery for most of the population is the goal of many evil gods. If one scares away one of these agents of evil, then they will simply regroup and find a sneakier way to slit your throat while you sleep. The only true way to stop the agents of evil and their agenda of death and peversity is to smite them. Track them down to the dark holes that they crawled out of and smite them in the glory of Torm. Track down every trace and hint of evil and smite it before it grows into a nest of unholy terror bent on the overthrow of all that is good and sacred. Of course, this is just one way of looking at it...
Darth K'Trava 02-25-04, 03:47 PM	Simple: it's part of their Code and Dogma. And point to the requisite text in their holy book. If that doesn't convince them, then actions DO speak louder than words! :devil:
Morka 02-25-04, 05:11 PM	Like Lashan said, agents of evil are out to undermine and destroy society as we know it. And the victims should be everyone, be it followers of other evil deities, neutral and good peoples. Since a neutral character should have less remorse than a good one, I doubt that such character should have any scrupule to slay them. However, followers of deities like Ilmater, Eldath & Selune should show some reluctance before the slaughter of sensitive beings. Did they get a just trial? Did they get a chance to repent?
Mirtek 02-25-04, 05:28 PM	IMO a paladin should never lose the hope that redemption is possible even for a cleric of Cyric or Bane. Of course, if they are fighting for their lives, the paladin shouldn't take special care not to kill them, but if he happens to be able to get one of them captured (e.g. by dropping him to negative HP) he mustn't slay them on the spot. That would be evil and no different from the ways of Bane and Cyric.
Cherrn 02-25-04, 05:53 PM	When Scyllua Darkhope spared the life of the pitfiend Lord Orgauth she became a fallen paladin. One thing I think we should remember is that being a paladin is not the same as being a Jedi. A jedi would have to spare a beaten foe's life or fall to the dark side. A paladin shouldn't spare the life of a beaten foe because the beaten foe is a tool of evil, and to have him live on would just risk the foe comitting more evil.
primemover003 02-25-04, 06:13 PM	Originally posted by Cherrn When Scyllua Darkhope spared the life of the pitfiend Lord Orgauth she became a fallen paladin. One thing I think we should remember is that being a paladin is not the same as being a Jedi. A jedi would have to spare a beaten foe's life or fall to the dark side. A paladin shouldn't spare the life of a beaten foe because the beaten foe is a tool of evil, and to have him live on would just risk the foe comitting more evil. And the Fact that a Pit Fiend is an ultimate representation of true evil. It's not like she had a Human or Orc fallen before her... she had a master manipulator, skilled at turning feelings of mercy into a tool of evil waiting to bring her down... and so she fell.
Mirtek 02-25-04, 06:48 PM	Even Pit Fiends and Demons can be redeemed. WotC has shown us plenty official examples. Likewise we have official examples of fallen celestials. Well, that just on the side. Anyway, the paladin Scyllua Darkhope fell before the forces of evil. The Pit Fiend slew her through his dark words where he couldn't slay her with his claws and magic. That's a sad fate and a fate which can befall any paladin. Scyllua Darkhope the paladin is as dead as she would have been if the Pit Fiend had killed her body. But is that justification to lose hope? The abandon what's good and become as merciless as the evil the paladins fight? To become exactly like the evils they battle? If this is the answer, then there's no need for further battle. Evil has already won and good has lost. It was not the act of mercy which caused Scyllua's fall for grace. She fell because she became caught in Orgauth's sweet words and promises of power. In a way she and Orgauth fought a second battle, as sincere as the clash of steel and spells. And, most important, never forget: The final act of her fall, the act which at last pushed her completly over the edge, was when she killed Orgauth. Yes, not when she showed him mercy, but when she killed him she turned away from light.
Morka 02-25-04, 07:31 PM	Heh, in what book can I find this history?
J. Grenemyer 02-26-04, 03:00 AM	Hello, I suppose the simple answer would be to point out that Paladins (and Clerics) of Torm are foresworn to uphold the Penance of Duty, which itself sprang from the lips of Torm’s most faithful after said God discovered the corruption rife within his church during the Time of Troubles. Part of this Penance is the task of upholding the Debt of Dereliction, which states, ”…Torm’s agents must expend every resource possible to eliminate cults of Cyric and Bane…” This by itself ought to be justification enough, even for a neutral sort of character. I think that any Lawful Good Paladin of Torm would respect the viewpoints of those who are not evil; more so if those viewpoints happen to be those held by his closest associates (namely the other players). But even then a Paladin of Torm (or for that matter a Paladin of any Deity) would not allow such viewpoints to supercede his own, much less interfere with his sense of duty. And so it is that such a Paladin might very well cite the Dogma of Bane and Cyric (which leads agents of those dread gods to seek to overturn order, strike down those of Good heart, undo society and leave chaos in their wake at every possible turn) as reason for vanquishing servants of those gods whenever and wherever possible. That said, I can still imagine a Paladin of Tyr calling out to his foes when practical, admonishing them to quit their evil ways and join the cause of Good. And I can also imagine him taking care to be merciful and give quarter to his foes, but not so much so that he compromise his (and his companions) integrity and safety. That last is most important: For if his enemy charges him with sword in hand, no Paladin of Torm would hesitate to meet his foe and stand firm for the cause of Good, regardless of how great his desire to see his foes redeemed. Ultimately I think it is most important to remember that it’s just a game; albeit a game that can be taken as seriously (or not so seriously) as those who sit around the table playing together want to take it. (Which is why responses proffered up to these sorts of Paladin questions oftentimes seem too serious to some yet entirely inadequate to others.) Anywhoo, have a nice day! :D
Morka 02-26-04, 08:48 AM	Originally posted by J. Grenemyer That last is most important: For if his enemy charges him with sword in hand, no Paladin of Torm would hesitate to meet his foe and stand firm for the cause of Good, regardless of how great his desire to see his foes redeemed. Heh, no one is so Lawful Stupid or Chaotic Stupid ;) I guess even a priest of Eldath, with all the vows of non-violence possible, will not interfere a friend killing a charging foe! (As long as there is no more Enchantment spell available...)