Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Plunderer_of_the_planes 01-19-04, 10:53 PM	Ok, My game has been on hiatus since Thanksgiving. Now that we are back in the full groove of the new year we finally have our game starting back up. I have been realigning the PC's to the new FR books I ahve gotten and was working on a teifling PC we haven't seen in awhile when I noticed something. A tiefling counts as an Outsider.. ( ok I knew this but bear with me) As I was going over said PC I paid attention to the bonuses for the race as compared to the Level adjustment as compared to the Offset of needing a wish or miracle spell to bring him back after death. Something seems wrong. Does a few elemental resistances, and a darkness spell 1/day honestly offset "if you die you can't be raised or rezzed"? Something about this doesn't seem right Or maybe I need to not do these things on nights I have worked (brain drain) Help and sorry if this was a waste of space....
Shemeska the Marauder 01-19-04, 11:08 PM	They count as 'native outsiders' on the prime material and thus they can be raised as per normally like most anyone else. Unless that's changed in 3.5, Lord I hope not.
Kuje31 01-19-04, 11:14 PM	Originally posted by Shemeska the Marauder They count as 'native outsiders' on the prime material and thus they can be raised as per normally like most anyone else. Unless that's changed in 3.5, Lord I hope not. This is what I thought also, and 3.5's MM still lists them as native outsiders..... It also gives them a few new changes also....
AsarothTheBarbarian 01-20-04, 12:31 AM	yes they can be ressurected as a normal human can!
Cunning Linguist 01-20-04, 03:38 AM	Well, you can use TRUE resurection, that would work. There is something in how a soul of a outsider lies in the skinn and bones of its host, and it can't return damaged. (XP wise, from a raise or resurection) So only wish, miracle and true resurection can wake the outsider dead.
cwslyclgh 01-20-04, 04:29 AM	unless of course they are native outsiders, and then they can be raised as easily as a human.
Plunderer_of_the_planes 01-20-04, 07:11 PM	Originally posted by Shemeska the Marauder They count as 'native outsiders' on the prime material and thus they can be raised as per normally like most anyone else. Unless that's changed in 3.5, Lord I hope not. who knows I don't use the 3.5 rules and any books that I have that are written using it are converted back to 3e. Well, you can use TRUE resurection, that would work. There is something in how a soul of a outsider lies in the skinn and bones of its host, and it can't return damaged. (XP wise, from a raise or resurection) So only wish, miracle and true resurection can wake the outsider dead. Thats the way I read it in the FRCS and, I belive, in Races of Faerun as well ( I may be wrong about RoF though) . My main problem with this is that is it a fair way to treat them and have a +1 LA. Ok look at this The get 5 points of energy resitance to fire, cold and Electricity (IIRC) 60' dark vision can cast Darkness once per day Are native outsiders that cannot be raised unless using wish or miracle +2 to bluff and hide Now I did not include the stas mods here because they even themselves out. The energy resistance and Drakness would play out over a few levels. Bluff and hide would still be somewhat useful at later levels. However given the +1 LA the PC would become less and less effective as his companions advance faster than he does and certian abilities become nearly useless. I know I could convince the player in question to take the racial feats that boost these abilities but, I find it almost unfair to make him use feat slots for this (total personal opinion). Given that at lower levels Raising is hard enough to come by I find it more unlikely that wish or miracle would be readily available as well. To me, there are too many negatives that undermone the positives. Maybe a fix would be to nix the LA and keep the raise restriction or to nix the raise problem and keep the LA. I'm at a loss here. Does anyone else have any Ideas?
Kuje31 01-20-04, 07:23 PM	Originally posted by Plunderer_of_the_planes Thats the way I read it in the FRCS and, I belive, in Races of Faerun as well ( I may be wrong about RoF though) . My main problem with this is that is it a fair way to treat them and have a +1 LA. Now I did not include the stas mods here because they even themselves out. Given that at lower levels Raising is hard enough to come by I find it more unlikely that wish or miracle would be readily available as well. I'm at a loss here. Does anyone else have any Ideas? Again native outsiders can be raised just like every one else. It doesn't take a wish or a miracle to do so...... http://oracle.wizards.com/scripts/wa.exe?A2=ind0106B&L=realms-l&P=R3664 Also remember that all of the Planetouched are Outsiders, not humanoids. That means they're immune to several common spells, like Daze, Charm Person and Hold Person. This doesn't really change their internal balance, but it does change it compared to "normal" races. However if they leave Faerun or Realmspace they can be banished also. :)
Plunderer_of_the_planes 01-20-04, 07:53 PM	Originally posted by Kuje31 Again native outsiders can be raised just like every one else. It doesn't take a wish or a miracle to do so...... http://oracle.wizards.com/scripts/wa.exe?A2=ind0106B&L=realms-l&P=R3664 Also remember that all of the Planetouched are Outsiders, not humanoids. That means they're immune to several common spells, like Daze, Charm Person and Hold Person. This doesn't really change their internal balance, but it does change it compared to "normal" races. However if they leave Faerun or Realmspace they can be banished also. :) Not to argue with you but why isn't that listed in the FRCS specifically in the racial listing for Tieflings and furthermore why does it state in the FRCS that they cannot be raised unless by a wish or miracle spell? Surely Wotc didn't make a boo-boo :eek: BTW I am double checking my books on the native outsider entry...That may be where I messed up..lol
cwslyclgh 01-20-04, 08:15 PM	you are incorrect... on page 18 (last paragraph under the Native Outsider: heading) it specificaly states that plane touched characters can be raised or resurected as normal.
Kuje31 01-20-04, 08:17 PM	Originally posted by Plunderer_of_the_planes Not to argue with you but why isn't that listed in the FRCS specifically in the racial listing for Tieflings and furthermore why does it state in the FRCS that they cannot be raised unless by a wish or miracle spell? Surely Wotc didn't make a boo-boo :eek: BTW I am double checking my books on the native outsider entry...That may be where I messed up..lol Page 18 of the FRCS under Planetouched, "Faerun's planetouched have lived on Toril long enough for Toril to become, in effect, thier native plane. This means that planetouched characters can be raised or ressurected normally, whereas most other outsider cannot be brought back from the dead without the use of a miracle or wish."
HyperactiveBuffalo 01-20-04, 08:37 PM	an OUTSIDER must be ressurected with a wish, or miracle. a NATIVE OUTSIDER can be ressurected and revived exactly like a human can. you get +2 dexterity +2 Intelligence and -2 Charisma (which counts as +6 on the balance scale, not evening out remotely) darkvision at 60 ft. +2 bluff and hide (which are some of the few skills that are very useful at high level) 5 resistance vs cold fire and electricity and darkness once a day. not to mention access to some of the most powerful feats in the game (races of faerun outsider feats), and immunity to a good portion of the spells they will come up against. All for +1 level adjustment. its actually been my experience that on a purely stat based level they are slightly overpowered, but this works itself out in the fact that they have severe limitations in roleplaying circumstances.
Plunderer_of_the_planes 01-20-04, 08:37 PM	Funny I found that just a few minutes ago as well. Sorry guys I guess I've spent to long at the boat plant today.......Next time I post one of these threads on monday through thirsday just kindly remind me I was at work prior to posting and that the answer was in front of me I just missed it ;) Now to find some damn coffee.....:whatsthis
Shemeska the Marauder 01-20-04, 08:42 PM	Originally posted by Plunderer_of_the_planes Now to find some damn coffee.....:whatsthis *gives you some time on own espresso machine*:whatsthis
Plunderer_of_the_planes 01-20-04, 08:48 PM	Originally posted by Shemeska the Marauder *gives you some time on own espresso machine*:whatsthis Yugoloth espresso huh? *takes a sip* :twitch: :mymy: No wonder you guys have kept the blood war going for so long....
Shemeska the Marauder 01-20-04, 09:03 PM	*laugh* So true :) The Baatezu and Tanar'ri don't really hate each other, they're just cranky from not getting their morning coffee ;)