Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Meldread 07-20-07, 04:46 PM	Another thread got me to thinking about what I would do if I were leader of the Zhentarim. They seem to suffer defeat after defeat, and yet at the same time, seem to have an endless amount of resources both in terms of coin and troops. In fact, they've become little more than a joke of an enemy. So, I am curious to what people here would do if they were suddenly placed in charge of the Zhents. Personally, my first order of business would be to end the silly war against the Dalelands. Yes, I would want to conquer them, but after suffering so many defeats I would learn from the mistakes of my predecessors and attempt new strategies. My second course of action would be to establish a firm control over the network. There is only going to be one leader - and that is me. It does me little good to try and occupy an enemy's land when my own organization is in turmoil. Crush the opposition, quell the chaos and start rebuilding from the ground up. I would work to use my resources to secure the lands west up to the Border Forest, South to the edge of Cormanthor Forest, North to the Great Glacier, and East conquering Vaasa while seizing control of at least half of the Galena Mountains. Vaasa and the Galena Mountains are rich in wealth and resources, and the monsters and beasts in the area can be brought into the Zhent Army or serve as military practice for the soldiers. (Hey even a Zhent soldier needs XP!) I would also pursue diplomatic deals with Sembia, working out trade agreements and pursue an alliance of sorts. I could then use Sembia to help keep Cormyr and the Dalelands weak while I lick my wounds and rebuild the organization. To further keep them weak I would strengthen the Black Network by seeding them throughout the Dalelands, Cormyr and even in Sembia. The goal will be to keep my enemies full of internal strife so that when I am prepared to launch my assault they will be at their weakest while I am at my strongest. As a final act, I would dedicate an entire branch of the Zhentarim to Wizards. I would send out a calling to every wizard I can find and have every child who has the possibility to use magic trained. My ultimate goal will be to have this branch, loyal to the Church of Bane, loyal to the Black Network, all with the goal of having them someday rival the Red Wizard's of Thay in power and knowledge. Overall, I would not dilute my power by spreading it out. I would centralize it, focus it, and once it is strong - use it to conquer everything South from the Great Glacier to the Sea of Fallen Stars, and West to Anauroch and the Stormhorn Mountains. Once all of that has fallen under my control and is secure, I would then turn my attention east to Damara and Impiltur. So if you were the leader of Zhentarim what would you do?
ericlboyd 07-20-07, 05:07 PM	Another thread got me to thinking about what I would do if I were leader of the Zhentarim. They seem to suffer defeat after defeat, and yet at the same time, seem to have an endless amount of resources both in terms of coin and troops. In fact, they've become little more than a joke of an enemy. So, I am curious to what people here would do if they were suddenly placed in charge of the Zhents. Personally, my first order of business would be to end the silly war against the Dalelands. Yes, I would want to conquer them, but after suffering so many defeats I would learn from the mistakes of my predecessors and attempt new strategies. My second course of action would be to establish a firm control over the network. There is only going to be one leader - and that is me. It does me little good to try and occupy an enemy's land when my own organization is in turmoil. Crush the opposition, quell the chaos and start rebuilding from the ground up. I would work to use my resources to secure the lands west up to the Border Forest, South to the edge of Cormanthor Forest, North to the Great Glacier, and East conquering Vaasa while seizing control of at least half of the Galena Mountains. Vaasa and the Galena Mountains are rich in wealth and resources, and the monsters and beasts in the area can be brought into the Zhent Army or serve as military practice for the soldiers. (Hey even a Zhent soldier needs XP!) I would also pursue diplomatic deals with Sembia, working out trade agreements and pursue an alliance of sorts. I could then use Sembia to help keep Cormyr and the Dalelands weak while I lick my wounds and rebuild the organization. To further keep them weak I would strengthen the Black Network by seeding them throughout the Dalelands, Cormyr and even in Sembia. The goal will be to keep my enemies full of internal strife so that when I am prepared to launch my assault they will be at their weakest while I am at my strongest. As a final act, I would dedicate an entire branch of the Zhentarim to Wizards. I would send out a calling to every wizard I can find and have every child who has the possibility to use magic trained. My ultimate goal will be to have this branch, loyal to the Church of Bane, loyal to the Black Network, all with the goal of having them someday rival the Red Wizard's of Thay in power and knowledge. Overall, I would not dilute my power by spreading it out. I would centralize it, focus it, and once it is strong - use it to conquer everything South from the Great Glacier to the Sea of Fallen Stars, and West to Anauroch and the Stormhorn Mountains. Once all of that has fallen under my control and is secure, I would then turn my attention east to Damara and Impiltur. So if you were the leader of Zhentarim what would you do? So, you realize, this is exactly what Fzoul is doing. The only additional thing he is doing is realizing that a reborn Myth Drannor on his southern flank will be a major threat to his power and trying to stop it before it gets firmly established. --Eric
Ioulaum 07-20-07, 08:14 PM	Personally, my first order of business would be to end the silly war against the Dalelands. Yes, I would want to conquer them, but after suffering so many defeats I would learn from the mistakes of my predecessors and attempt new strategies. My second course of action would be to establish a firm control over the network. There is only going to be one leader - and that is me. It does me little good to try and occupy an enemy's land when my own organization is in turmoil. Crush the opposition, quell the chaos and start rebuilding from the ground up. I never understood why the Zhents want to conquer the dales that much? It is not like it overflowing with gold and resource. It is mostly populated by a bunch of tree hugging farmers. What is it about the dale that make the Zhents want to take it over? As New Leder of the Zhents I would: 1. Secure the borders, we have the New Myth Dannar in the South and the Shades in the East. I would try to work out trade deals with the Shades for mutual benefits and at least get them off my org's back for the time being. With the elves i would negotiate a non-aggression treaty with them. As long as they stay out my business in the moonsea i stay away form elven forest and by extention the dales. 2. I started putting the rest of the Zhents under my control. I still got that deal with Khelban but i would still try to destablize the Cyric Zhents as much as possible including sponsoring good adventuring parties against them. 3. Start prompting more unity in the Ranks. Less backstabbing and sabatoging your rival and more working with your rival. 4. Make alliance with other Evil organizations that you currently don't much competiton with or small groups you can take over. Ie. Kareken Society and Host Tower, far enough away form each where you are not in direct competition with each other but with similar aims where you can help each out. Iron Throne are a small enough group you can either absorb or wipeout. No reason to let competitors stick around. 5. Be evil but be subtle about. no need to let the world know how you evil you are. there is no need to wave around flags that say i am evil. like some other idiot evil org stick thier head out and proclaim we are the most evil bunch ever and watch it bcome the target of every good org out there. 6. stir up internal trouble in Comyr and Sembia by sending money and supplies to the trouble makers in each region just don't let the coins and supplies be trace back. 7. Make Unther a big prority. lots of opportunities in land that is used to tyrants and is fighting against a traditional enemy.
Drew1369r 07-20-07, 08:29 PM	Do what the Shade did with Evereska except with Unther.. Help them defeat the Mulhorandi but make sure that any agreement leaves it open to trade and an unbreakable alliance. Send some adventuring parties to Vaasa and start clearing out the monsters for the gold that Garath is offering per ear, but set up a permanent military encampment to keep what you have secured.
Paix 07-20-07, 08:37 PM	The Zhentarim as presented have an interesting dichotomy. On one hand you have the mercantile aspect which they pursue fervently by all accounts and it seems to be the field where they are most succesful, either achieved through legitimate means or trickery (false market shortages, under the counter transactions, black market operations, etc.). That field one assumes is what fills their coffers and allows for their expansion adn military build up and the comfortable financing of their religious/magical pursuits. On the other hand, the nature of their dominating leaders, Manshoon in the past, Fzoul currently, seems to dictate a need for open domination leading to the need for actual military expeditions. Those are ironicaly the ones that have consistently been foiled to the point of ridicule, evidenced in-game by many sayings among the common dalefolk and others arounds the Moonsea region. Fzoul being favoured by a god of tyranny, has little choice I presume, in the open and outright domination of anything within reach. Manshoon's motives for such efforts are slightly contradictory for someone understanding how other means can bind opponents, perceived or real, to his will. On the face of it, it is precisely this dichotomy that mandates their repeated failure. Something demonstrated with Thay which exhibited a similar divide until recently, before launching its trade initiative. It is puzzling that the Zhentarim, long acquainted with the value of discretion and expansion through trade and other indirect means, chose repeatedly to project open tyranny through military means. Of-course, being a plot device for adventure or novel, is an extraneous need and maybe the main reason for them not seeing the writing on the wall but it is curious to see posters above assuming that military expansion is the way to go. In hope of further adventure hooks perhaps?
msatran 07-20-07, 11:28 PM	Well that, you see, is the trick. Manshoon knew that Fzoul would do this. And this time, he knows Fzoul has bitten off more than he can chew. It's only a matter of time now before some angry group of adventurers of levels 20+ knocks on Fzoul's door and kills him. And where will Manshoon be when this happens? Somewhere else, anywhere else, setting up the Zhents as the SECRET economic dominator it was always meant to be from the SHADOWS.
Ioulaum 07-21-07, 12:18 AM	This discussion reminds me of the Evil Overlord List of Do and Don'ts: http://www.eviloverlord.com/lists/overlord.html <--- something for the designers and writers to keep in mind for next time. - I will not gloat over my enemies' predicament before killing them. - I will be secure in my superiority. Therefore, I will feel no need to prove it by leaving clues in the form of riddles or leaving my weaker enemies alive to show they pose no threat. - If an advisor says to me "My liege, he is but one man. What can one man possibly do?", I will reply "This." and kill the advisor. [
Fabius Maximus 07-21-07, 11:44 AM	I never understood why the Zhents want to conquer the dales that much? It is not like it overflowing with gold and resource. It is mostly populated by a bunch of tree hugging farmers. What is it about the dale that make the Zhents want to take it over? Full control over the Moonsea Ride and the other trade routes winding through the dales. With that, you have a foot in the door to both soon-to-be-Shade-controlled Sembia and Cormyr, and a safer road up to Darkhold and into the Heartlands. Meldread: Expanding into Vaasa would be a major stupidity. The ressources there are not worth the resulting quarrel with Tiamat's followers and Damara. Plus, the inroad into Cormanthyr protected territory makes sense, because the crusade hasn't achieved full control over the elven woods yet. The elves will most likely never be this weak again. The Network will have to be careful with the Shades. I consider the alliance rather stupid, for Shade will want to absorb or at least control the Zhents. I would have approached other organizations and countries to bond with: Westgate, the Iron Throne, The Knights of the Shield, Tiamat's church, maybe even Thay.
msatran 07-21-07, 12:12 PM	Expanding into Vaasa is not a real option. Hmm. Swamps. Dragons. More swamps. More Dragons. Oh, and undead. Yeah, that's a fertile trading ground.
XHereticX 07-21-07, 11:00 PM	Hmm, I'd kill all the members, and return them all as undead. Then dedicate the Black Network to Myrkul.;) After that I would probably do what Meldread intends to do, cept my servants would be quite a bit easier to control.
Rauric 07-21-07, 11:15 PM	Well that, you see, is the trick. Manshoon knew that Fzoul would do this. And this time, he knows Fzoul has bitten off more than he can chew. It's only a matter of time now before some angry group of adventurers of levels 20+ knocks on Fzoul's door and kills him. And where will Manshoon be when this happens? Somewhere else, anywhere else, setting up the Zhents as the SECRET economic dominator it was always meant to be from the SHADOWS. That is what I figured. I think their will be a reformed Zhentarim in the future that will be free of the Bane Theocracy. It will secretly be controlled by Manshoon and it will have some puppet as the figurehead. At least that is what will happen in my game.:P
Meldread 07-22-07, 01:12 PM	Meldread: Expanding into Vaasa would be a major stupidity. The ressources there are not worth the resulting quarrel with Tiamat's followers and Damara. Expanding into Vaasa is not a real option. Hmm. Swamps. Dragons. More swamps. More Dragons. Oh, and undead. Yeah, that's a fertile trading ground. Sure, Vaasa is a hellhole. However, it is full of natural resources that can be exploited, and the Zhent's are more likely to have success there (as Vaasa is hugely under populated) than in the Dalelands. The Zhent's really need a serious victory to boost moral and help restore confidence in the organization. If the Zhent's seized Vaasa then they could exploit the natural resources for the purposes of economic prosperity. It would also secure their northern border, because there isn't much that is going to come off the Great Glacier. Hell, at this point I would be willing to become subservient to the Shades. It removes one potential enemy, it would give me insight into their plans, it would give me access to their resources, and later when they are weaker and I am stronger I can deal with them. Patients is key when dealing with the Shades, and what's more I could use their knowledge of weather control to actually make Vaasa habitable. The Elves are hardly a problem. I would not assault them directly as that is foolish and will only gain them sympathy. Instead, I would openly try to make peace with them, calling them to the table for diplomatic talks. I would want to make clear where our borders are so there is no dispute. Meanwhile, behind their back, I would have agents in Sembia, who are known for their Elf hatred, stirring the racism pot. I would set things up to ensure that the Dales, Sembia and Cormyr become angry at the Elves. I am not certain, but I do not see why the Elves would not wish to reclaim the forest. There is no reason for them not to do so and the very thought in the Dalelands and Cormyr of the Elves talking with Zhents should be enough to raise eyebrows if not distrust. I would play on that, manipulate it, and set them against each other. In Sembia, which would be much easier to manipulate than the others, I would secretly fund militant groups. That combined with propaganda in other areas (seemingly coming from said militant groups) should be enough for mercenaries to be raised and battles to be fought. If that were to fail, then it is a simple matter of cutting a deal with a devil or drow to lay siege to the Elves. As the Elves do battle I would direct said militant groups in a scorched earth strategy throughout the Dalelands. Instructions would be simple and clear: Leave none alive. Destroy and kill everything. Those that would not die in the fighting will die from starvation as farms are burned. Those who do not die from starvation will have to deal with riots, revolt and endless social upheaval. I will sit in my Evil Overlord Tower with a smirk on my face as the peasants stab each other in the back, killing themselves for my amusement. Then at the appropriate time, when the Elves are no longer a threat, when the Dalelands have been sufficiently broken, I will stretch out my hand in friendship, a hand to guide them in their troubled times, to bring order, stability and peace to their broken land. When it seems all hope has been lost the Zhents will send the Dalelands food, the Zhents will restore order, and the people of the Dalelands will no longer view them as villains but as heroes and saviors. By the time the truth is realized it will be too late. They will have already found themselves clutched in the ever-tightening fist of Almighty Bane and his church. The Zhents keep failing because they are stupid. They throw troops at the same people repeatedly and never learn from their mistakes. They ignore diplomacy and lack subtlety. They are not organized or focused. Their leaders lack the ability pull off a serious victory as they work in short term goals.
Fabius Maximus 07-22-07, 02:32 PM	Sure, Vaasa is a hellhole. However, it is full of natural resources that can be exploited, and the Zhent's are more likely to have success there (as Vaasa is hugely under populated) than in the Dalelands. The Zhent's really need a serious victory to boost moral and help restore confidence in the organization. If the Zhent's seized Vaasa then they could exploit the natural resources for the purposes of economic prosperity. It would also secure their northern border, because there isn't much that is going to come off the Great Glacier. Would it be really good for morale if the soldiers have to wade through mud and snow just to secure a wasteland with all kinds of nasties in it? I doubt it. And how do you secure Castle Perilous? It's not possible with all the dragons in there. It would rather be wise to ally with them, or at least sign a non-aggression pact, because the dragon's main focus will be Damara. Hell, at this point I would be willing to become subservient to the Shades. It removes one potential enemy, it would give me insight into their plans, it would give me access to their resources, and later when they are weaker and I am stronger I can deal with them. Patients is key when dealing with the Shades, and what's more I could use their knowledge of weather control to actually make Vaasa habitable.Nope. Not gonna happen. Remember, you have all the banites in the organisation, who are all about Domination. They wouldn't stand for it. Purging them would strip the Zhentarim of much of their spellcasting power, so that's not an option. The Shades are quite weak now. Allowing them to become stronger is counter-productive for achieving my goals. That's why I can't understand the current alliance between the Shade Empire and the Network. The Elves are hardly a problem. I would not assault them directly as that is foolish and will only gain them sympathy. Instead, I would openly try to make peace with them, calling them to the table for diplomatic talks. I would want to make clear where our borders are so there is no dispute. Meanwhile, behind their back, I would have agents in Sembia, who are known for their Elf hatred, stirring the racism pot. I would set things up to ensure that the Dales, Sembia and Cormyr become angry at the Elves. I am not certain, but I do not see why the Elves would not wish to reclaim the forest. There is no reason for them not to do so and the very thought in the Dalelands and Cormyr of the Elves talking with Zhents should be enough to raise eyebrows if not distrust. I would play on that, manipulate it, and set them against each other. In Sembia, which would be much easier to manipulate than the others, I would secretly fund militant groups. That combined with propaganda in other areas (seemingly coming from said militant groups) should be enough for mercenaries to be raised and battles to be fought. If that were to fail, then it is a simple matter of cutting a deal with a devil or drow to lay siege to the Elves. As the Elves do battle I would direct said militant groups in a scorched earth strategy throughout the Dalelands. Instructions would be simple and clear: Leave none alive. Destroy and kill everything. Those that would not die in the fighting will die from starvation as farms are burned. Those who do not die from starvation will have to deal with riots, revolt and endless social upheaval. 1. The elves know about the Zhentarim and faced them during the crusade, IIRC. Peace will not be an option. Sure, I cannot invade the woods. They would shred my troops to ribbons. But I can cut them off from support from the surrounding areas. That means it's vital to conquer not only the Dalelands, but bringing in the Vast into the protecitve folds of the Zhentarim arms as well. It's also more profitable than, say, going for Vaasa. 2. Agitation is all well and nice, but it is not rocket science. You cannot stear it effectivly enough. And the only lasting resentment against elves lingers in Sembia. Cormyr and the Dales will have no part in it. 3. Pacts with fiends and drow are possible. But the crusade has experience in dealing with both of them, so finding adversaries which they don't know will be much more effective and guarantees for a longer conflict which is just what I need to consolidate my holdings in the Dales. But I'm just fresh out of ideas of whom I could send. Maybe hiring Duergar mercenaries to wage a war of attrition.
Meldread 07-22-07, 04:42 PM	Would it be really good for morale if the soldiers have to wade through mud and snow just to secure a wasteland with all kinds of nasties in it? I doubt it. How good is it for morale that every time they invade the Dalelands they get slaughtered? How good is it for morale that every victory they have is only temporary, lingering at best a few years just before a new defeat. Besides, a few simple spells can deal with the worst of it and higher level magic can be used to alter the weather. Vaasa actually has good farming soil in the places that can be farmed. Imagine what it would be like with some climate alteration. There is even a bonus: it is highly likely that altering the climate in such a way will make the weather in Damara really crappy. And how do you secure Castle Perilous? It's not possible with all the dragons in there. It would rather be wise to ally with them, or at least sign a non-aggression pact, because the dragon's main focus will be Damara. A non-aggression pact can be signed, as well as shared benefits for the region. Diplomacy is a good thing to engage in to get what you want. However, my knowledge of Castle Perilous is limited and brief research into it implies that it is somehow under the sway of Bregan D'aerthe. If anything, a diplomatic resolution is better than a bloody one, if only because it saves resources for both sides. However, I doubt that there is anything in Vaasa that could with stand the Zhents if they truly set their sights on taking the place. There are plenty of things in the command of the Zhents, beings and creatures of power, that can deal with whatever lays within the Vaasan Wasteland. Taking the mountain ranges would be the main objective, however, due to the mineable resources which could then be used to directly compete against Damara, especially in the trade of Bloodstones. The fact that so many goblins are in the area bodes well as they can be used for slave labor without raising too many eyebrows in more civilized lands. Most would likely care less and some may even smile, which is the beautiful thing about racism. Nope. Not gonna happen. Remember, you have all the banites in the organisation, who are all about Domination. They wouldn't stand for it. Purging them would strip the Zhentarim of much of their spellcasting power, so that's not an option. The Shades are quite weak now. Allowing them to become stronger is counter-productive for achieving my goals. That's why I can't understand the current alliance between the Shade Empire and the Network. Yes, just because you are a Banite does not mean you are stupid. Further, if you are leader you are dominating the others. If they wish to leave? Well there is a price to pay for that. It's collected in body parts. Which part would you like to lose first? After a few fingers and toes are removed I am sure you will reconsider your allegiances. Failing that, there is always the less conventional route with magic. A little mind raping never hurt anyone, well at least they never remembered the hurt. Geases are also useful. In fact, the best way to ensure loyalty is to force everyone who serves the organization into a geas. Most of your problems are solved right there, and you further eliminate problems if you mind rape the more powerful and dangerous ones to ensure absolute loyalty. The Shades themselves may not be a major threat now, and they may be weak, but without an alliance of some sort they are still dangerous. They would not be a problem if it were only them, but the Zhent's are surrounded by enemies. There are even enemies within their own organization. When faced with such a situation you have to make some temporary concessions. Number one on the list is to stabilize the organization. Unity is a hard thing to create. Therefore, it is necessary that loyalty be to one person and to something greater. That one person would be the leader of the Zhent's and the something greater would be Bane himself. Finding out traitors is not a difficult thing to do - torture combined with a zone of truth will ensure that traitors are located swiftly and crushed. Of course, there are better methods to getting information, but being an Evil Overlord torture is much more preferred. Not only is it enjoyable to watch a traitor suffer either directly at my hands or the hands of one of my loyal subjects, it also leaves an impression on others. Fear is a powerful motivator, and will make everyone - if they were not already under a geas - think twice and then a third time about betraying the Zhents. When they hear about the horrors that will face them if they are even suspected of disloyalty or treason... well they would probably prefer suicide than to face the horrors that will be inflicted upon their bodies and souls. 1. The elves know about the Zhentarim and faced them during the crusade, IIRC. Peace will not be an option. Sure, I cannot invade the woods. They would shred my troops to ribbons. But I can cut them off from support from the surrounding areas. That means it's vital to conquer not only the Dalelands, but bringing in the Vast into the protecitve folds of the Zhentarim arms as well. It's also more profitable than, say, going for Vaasa. The Elves are not going to try and invade the Zhents. They will be preoccupied by other things. No one said they had to get along and be friends, however they will be neighbors and as such it is important to at least talk. If Winston Churchill could send emissaries to meet with Hitler, I am sure the Zhents and the Elves can talk. The idea will be to clearly divine the borders, something that is in the interests of both sides. Once the discussion begins it will be the goal of the Zhents to encourage the Elves to claim the entire Cormanthor Forest as part of their domain. This will bring them into conflict with the Dalelands, and do not forget that the basis for Sembian hatred of Elves lay in a very similar situation. Since the Elves do not need to worry about the Zhents attacking them they will be able to focus their military on securing their city and forest. Their "nation" effectively divides the region and is just asking for Sembia to pick the scab off an old wound. The Elves greatest weakness is their arrogance and pride. This can be used against them to create tensions. While the Dalelands may not respond with hostility, some Sembians might. There is little doubt that the Elves returning will turn heads in Sembia and will be a cause for militant and racist groups to take shape. Secret funding through agents will give those groups more power than they would otherwise have, and could ensure some outbreaks in violence, and even the spreading of racism in the Dalelands. That combined with effective propaganda on both sides should be enough to at the very least keep them all on edge. The Zhents will obviously have their focus to the North in Vaasa, and therefore no one will see them as a threat. That combined with peace agreements signed with the Dalelands and the elves will force them to turn their attention to each other. 2. Agitation is all well and nice, but it is not rocket science. You cannot stear it effectivly enough. And the only lasting resentment against elves lingers in Sembia. Cormyr and the Dales will have no part in it. It does not matter how well it is steered as long as it spreads. I explained above how to get the Dales involved, and Cormyr could also be brought into the mix through careful maneuvering, but even if not they are hardly a threat. They have their own problems to worry about. 3. Pacts with fiends and drow are possible. But the crusade has experience in dealing with both of them, so finding adversaries which they don't know will be much more effective and guarantees for a longer conflict which is just what I need to consolidate my holdings in the Dales. Exactly. That is the goal. Really, why would you want either side to win? The best case scenario is that both sides are wiped out or are weakened to such a point where they pose little to no threat at all. If a Devil or Drow were to easily sweep aside the Elves and take their place in the region then you are no better off than when you started. The best case scenario is that the Elves win - and at the point of their victory you are now stronger. That is when you sweep down and finish them off to deliver the death blow. Being an Evil Overlord affords me much more in the way of flexibility when it comes to strategizing. I don't have to worry about the lives of the innocent and I can make calculated and strategic sacrifices of my own men if it will bring me greater gains down the road. Using agents to higher mercenaries to sweep throughout the Dalelands, focusing on destroying farms and assassinating key political leaders to create instability, all the while blaming it on someone else - such as the Elves (or some other enemy) - would prove highly effective. When people become desperate, when they watch their children starve to death, they will turn to anyone who is willing to offer them a helping hand - even to Bane and the Zhentarim. When there are no other sources of help, no other sources of food or supplies, when all that you've known has been swept aside the ground is fertile to plant new seeds. Through strategic actions I could eliminate more than half of the population of the Dalelands in a matter of months. Due to the fact that I would use mercenaries even if one group is stopped by bothersome Adventurers another can be hired. It would be like assaulting a many headed beast. They could attempt to go for me directly, the heart, but they would fail in that attempt. Mostly because they would have to locate me first, and because I would have contingency plans should I be located. Nothing said I should have to stay and fight, fleeing is almost always the better option. My biggest enemies will not be from outside threats, but those within my own organization. However, thanks to the wonders of magic and the unscrupulous methods that I employ that threat is minimized. Therefore, the greatest threat I would have is myself - arrogance, complacence, pride and such would be traits that could prove my undoing, and as such it would be a prime goal to keep myself aware of these things.
Fabius Maximus 07-22-07, 08:55 PM	How good is it for morale that every time they invade the Dalelands they get slaughtered? How good is it for morale that every victory they have is only temporary, lingering at best a few years just before a new defeat. Besides, a few simple spells can deal with the worst of it and higher level magic can be used to alter the weather. Vaasa actually has good farming soil in the places that can be farmed. Imagine what it would be like with some climate alteration. There is even a bonus: it is highly likely that altering the climate in such a way will make the weather in Damara really crappy.Vaasa is mostly tundra, the rest is taiga. There's not much to gain there through farming. The only viable reason to spread there are the Bloodstone reserves, which are hard to get to. If you start messing with the weather, you invest a lot of ressources to just make less than average soil more fertile, and the gain will not offset the cost. A non-aggression pact can be signed, as well as shared benefits for the region. Diplomacy is a good thing to engage in to get what you want. However, my knowledge of Castle Perilous is limited and brief research into it implies that it is somehow under the sway of Bregan D'aerthe. The events of that particular novel lie several years in the past (and wouldn't be considered canon by me, anyway). The most recent events are mentioned in Dragons of Faerūn. It says that the Church of Tiamat uses the ruins of Castle Perilous as a breeding ground for Spawns of Tiamat, which ties in very nicely with the text in the FRCS and a short story in Realms of Shadow. If anything, a diplomatic resolution is better than a bloody one, if only because it saves resources for both sides. However, I doubt that there is anything in Vaasa that could with stand the Zhents if they truly set their sights on taking the place. There are plenty of things in the command of the Zhents, beings and creatures of power, that can deal with whatever lays within the Vaasan Wasteland. Taking the mountain ranges would be the main objective, however, due to the mineable resources which could then be used to directly compete against Damara, especially in the trade of Bloodstones. The fact that so many goblins are in the area bodes well as they can be used for slave labor without raising too many eyebrows in more civilized lands. Most would likely care less and some may even smile, which is the beautiful thing about racism. You can hire hobgoblin and giant mercs without invading their territory. Else, you have to subdue them, which takes a long time because of their tribal society. Think about Afghanistan. Similar terrain, similar societal structure. You can't just move in and say: "Here I am. Bow to me, because I'm stronger than you!" Most of the chieftains will make a rude gesture and then vanish into the mountains. The natural ressources are just not worth a prolonged war of attrition. Yes, just because you are a Banite does not mean you are stupid. Further, if you are leader you are dominating the others. If they wish to leave? Well there is a price to pay for that. It's collected in body parts. Which part would you like to lose first? After a few fingers and toes are removed I am sure you will reconsider your allegiances. Failing that, there is always the less conventional route with magic. A little mind raping never hurt anyone, well at least they never remembered the hurt. Geases are also useful. In fact, the best way to ensure loyalty is to force everyone who serves the organization into a geas. Most of your problems are solved right there, and you further eliminate problems if you mind rape the more powerful and dangerous ones to ensure absolute loyalty. Yeah, right. As if torturing your subjects leads to them closing the ranks. They will leave if you start that. The more violent you get, the more will run away. You will spent more and more (magical) ressources to keep them in line, but you will need them in Vaasa, subduing the goblin tribes, keeping the Tiamatians at bay and altering the weather. The Shades themselves may not be a major threat now, and they may be weak, but without an alliance of some sort they are still dangerous. They would not be a problem if it were only them, but the Zhent's are surrounded by enemies. There are even enemies within their own organization. When faced with such a situation you have to make some temporary concessions. Except from the elven crusade and the Dalelands, what enemies are there? Hillsfar is gone, the Moonsea under control, Cormyr to weak to do anything, Sembia is in a downward spiral. The Zhentarim are without a major foe the first time since centuries. Number one on the list is to stabilize the organization. Unity is a hard thing to create. Therefore, it is necessary that loyalty be to one person and to something greater. That one person would be the leader of the Zhent's and the something greater would be Bane himself...Fzoul is quite capable of doing that. (We assume that he is still alive, right?) He's the only one who can keep the Zhents in line as a whole. And if you mean the Cyricists with 'internal enemies', they are in Darkhold, far away to the west. The Elves are not going to try and invade the Zhents.That's right. But they will come to the defense of the Dales. And control of the Dales is the next thing the Zhents have to achieve, for the reasons I stated above. Destablizing the elves and conquering the Dalelands while they are still weak would be wise. Once the discussion begins it will be the goal of the Zhents to encourage the Elves to claim the entire Cormanthor Forest as part of their domain. This will bring them into conflict with the Dalelands, and do not forget that the basis for Sembian hatred of Elves lay in a very similar situation. No. The coronal is smart enough first not to trust any Zhent and second not try to reclaim territories lost to Cormanthyr centuries ago. The crusade is still struggeling with fiends within Myth Drannor, and expansion is the last thing they will think about in the near future. The Dalelands were allies of Cormanthyr for now 1375 years. No side will break this alliance. And Sembia is not in any position to wage war upon the elves, even if there were hostilities. Sembia helped the crusade against the Fey'ri, so there is more trust there than ever. And to get the Sembians to get hostile, the Network will have to win a Cold War with the Shades for control of the country. That's why you need to control the cities of the Vast. You don't even need to wage war on them. Make friends with the Church of Tiamat, and use a few dragons to raid them. Interrupt trade, by sea or out of the Galenas. Then offer protection. Heck, the Cult of the Dragon has done this for years. And it hasn't got the ressources the Zhents have. Exactly. That is the goal. Really, why would you want either side to win? The best case scenario is that both sides are wiped out or are weakened to such a point where they pose little to no threat at all. If a Devil or Drow were to easily sweep aside the Elves and take their place in the region then you are no better off than when you started. The best case scenario is that the Elves win - and at the point of their victory you are now stronger. That is when you sweep down and finish them off to deliver the death blow. Yes, but as I said before: the crusade is experienced in fighting both fiends and drow. The elves and their allies didn't do much besides fighting drow and fiends for two years now. They can deal with both rather quickly, and then you gained close to nothing. Using these two groups is only good for achieving short term goals, like conquering the Dales. You even don't have to invade all of them. Daggerdale, Shadowdale and Mistledale are enough to secure the caravan routes. Using agents to higher mercenaries to sweep throughout the Dalelands, focusing on destroying farms and assassinating key political leaders to create instability, all the while blaming it on someone else - such as the Elves (or some other enemy) - would prove highly effective. Has been already tried in Tethyr, wasn't effective. And the elves there were much more reclusive and not well known to the human population. It just needed a few Harper agents to foil that plan.
msatran 07-22-07, 09:24 PM	What if OTHER famous fictional characters were leaders of the Zhents? Darth Vader: Capture everyone in Shadowdale who shows the slightest sign of adventuring talent, and conscript them. Kill anyone who refuses. Megatron (Generation 1): Capture Everyone in Shadowdale and force them to build labor saving devices. Anyone who refuses can join the list of the deactivated! Agent Smith: Capture Everyone in Shadowdale and force them all to look like him, and then erase their memories and go about their business as if there was no invasion. Ming the Merciless: Those who refuse to acknowledge Ming's supremacy are imprisoned. Those who do are given cushy jobs and may be allowed to marry his daughter. Unfortunately, if you are imprisoned, you stand a better chance of making out with her. Doctor Doom: Those who agree to Doom's rule are surprisingly comfortable. Those who don't mysteriously disappear, or are deported, depending on whether or not they're a threat. Doctor Destroyer (Hero Games Champions): Shadowdale is destroyed. Everyone in it is dead. Build a new town.
Stigger 07-23-07, 03:03 PM	Having thought about it... the Zhents kinda sound like the Dutch East India Company gone stupid...
Grimgrag 07-23-07, 08:29 PM	i woud ally whit mask and clean the zentarim from cyricists and from there use the shadow thifs and ather snecky orgs to make rumers and plots to make a civil war in places that is rich like amn .mask dont have a army but the zents have so its a win win for evoryone and mask hates cyric . from there i woud make a war campain to move south enslaving the places i want and ally whit sembia to guard moonsea from elfs and cormyr for a good share of the loot geting rich on trade to ather nations that is far oway and make a big army . get more sky mages . gather more orcs ogers and babaric tribes .geting a good general to make the forces good so they dont suck like in the boks . make a deal whit velsharoon for powerfull necromansers as skymakes make allot of war machines . to have the power to attack and make a army bigger all the time and not attack maky places at ones for its not good to handel a war on maky fronts . i suck at english hope its not so bad
Asgetrion 07-24-07, 06:14 PM	Hmmm... I agree that using propaganda to create tension between the Dalesfolk, Sembians and the elves would probably be the best option for the Zhents, although I would take it up a notch and hire/bribe/cajole some drow parties to disguise as elves and launch attacks against the Dalesmen within and near Cormanthor (which would bring up old grudges from the pre-Retreat time when elves guarded the woods jealously). This (and elven pride) would prevent them from allying against the Zhents, especially if Zhent spies started to spread (exaggerated) rumours about this "open elven hostility" and nasty bloodshed. The Zhents might also consider allying themselves with the Eldreth Veluudra (sp?) through elven undercover agents (who would not reveal their true allegiances). EV is probably pro-Myth Drannor, although I imagine that their kinsmen are hesitant to ally with them openly, and thus they would be desperate for like-minded elven allies (which would give the Zhents more leverage within Myth Drannor).
The WarOverlord 07-24-07, 06:39 PM	Another thread got me to thinking about what I would do if I were leader of the Zhentarim. They seem to suffer defeat after defeat, and yet at the same time, seem to have an endless amount of resources both in terms of coin and troops. In fact, they've become little more than a joke of an enemy. So, I am curious to what people here would do if they were suddenly placed in charge of the Zhents. Personally, my first order of business would be to end the silly war against the Dalelands. Yes, I would want to conquer them, but after suffering so many defeats I would learn from the mistakes of my predecessors and attempt new strategies. My second course of action would be to establish a firm control over the network. There is only going to be one leader - and that is me. It does me little good to try and occupy an enemy's land when my own organization is in turmoil. Crush the opposition, quell the chaos and start rebuilding from the ground up. I would work to use my resources to secure the lands west up to the Border Forest, South to the edge of Cormanthor Forest, North to the Great Glacier, and East conquering Vaasa while seizing control of at least half of the Galena Mountains. Vaasa and the Galena Mountains are rich in wealth and resources, and the monsters and beasts in the area can be brought into the Zhent Army or serve as military practice for the soldiers. (Hey even a Zhent soldier needs XP!) I would also pursue diplomatic deals with Sembia, working out trade agreements and pursue an alliance of sorts. I could then use Sembia to help keep Cormyr and the Dalelands weak while I lick my wounds and rebuild the organization. To further keep them weak I would strengthen the Black Network by seeding them throughout the Dalelands, Cormyr and even in Sembia. The goal will be to keep my enemies full of internal strife so that when I am prepared to launch my assault they will be at their weakest while I am at my strongest. As a final act, I would dedicate an entire branch of the Zhentarim to Wizards. I would send out a calling to every wizard I can find and have every child who has the possibility to use magic trained. My ultimate goal will be to have this branch, loyal to the Church of Bane, loyal to the Black Network, all with the goal of having them someday rival the Red Wizard's of Thay in power and knowledge. Overall, I would not dilute my power by spreading it out. I would centralize it, focus it, and once it is strong - use it to conquer everything South from the Great Glacier to the Sea of Fallen Stars, and West to Anauroch and the Stormhorn Mountains. Once all of that has fallen under my control and is secure, I would then turn my attention east to Damara and Impiltur. So if you were the leader of Zhentarim what would you do? Well, Japan tried to conquer the world by force and lost so they resorted to selling us stuff we can't live without and bought most of the land in California and Hawaii for developing hotels, shopping malls and golf courses instead of stealing it and now is one of the richest nations in the world with land and businesses all over the world with the best "in demand" technology coming from them if not outsourced by them or 1 of their many factories around the world...yes? By the same regard I think the Zhents are wasting their time trying to conquer territories as "your people" don't need to buy your goods and services so it would actually be better to leave the potential customers free and independent of you and give them discounts and other incentives to deal with you over other merchants and businesses. As far as keeping the "restless solders" occupied I would hire them out as gaurds to cavarvans worldwide as there are monsters and bandits on many of the trails that would keep them busy enough.
HVulpes 07-24-07, 09:04 PM	First off, Myth Drannor is an addiction to the Zhents as it holds the money (Magic items and land) they want. First the Money, then the power, then the women. Remember that it has gone from elves, to all races, to monsters and adventurers, to Demonfey, to elves again. Each leaving cool stuff behind. The only reason that the Zhents even headed to Shadowdale was with the aid of the Shades, drow, Shar worshippers and their own army. They neutralized most of the chosen in the area by eliminating Sylune, bansihed Elminster, had Storm and Dove distracted and placed an anti-magic zone that allowed their Shadow Adepts to hold the advantage. They 'should' win except for an unexpected element (The PC). As Zhent leader, I would not have just one plan which could fail and push me back. I might try to isolate the elves of Myth Drannor, perhaps secretly encouraging selected raids of Drow or even Victorious Blades. I would bring back the hatred of elves in Sembia. I would cause troubles in Cormyr to limit their involvement. I would work in Vassa (sp?) with the church of Tiamat. With armies aided by Dragonspawn and true dragons aiding them, they can bring terror to the countryside. I would work with the southern church of Bane near Tethyr, constucting a strong base there. Access to rich markets of Calimshan and Amn, both are dealing with inner troubles I can turn to my advantage. I would look to Thay and see what kind of troubles are occuring there and how that might advantage me. Perhaps seducing Red Wizards to the side of my Black Wizards and gaining secrets. I would work in Waterdeep, a massive market place. I would seek out the identites of the hidden lords so that may control them. This is just the beginning of my plans.
Stigger 07-24-07, 09:38 PM	And yet if they were really smart, they'd simply rely on economic domination and just forget about giving people ammunition to actively oppose them. Manufacturing apathy on the part of the consumer and potential dissident is generally more effective than trying to march an army in afterall. But that's kinda why Bane is an idiot really... that whole tyranny thing just doesn't work in the long term, and really demonstrates why he's (and by extension his church) ultimately a short-sighted fool.
Asgetrion 07-25-07, 08:04 AM	As Zhent leader, I would not have just one plan which could fail and push me back. I might try to isolate the elves of Myth Drannor, perhaps secretly encouraging selected raids of Drow or even Victorious Blades. I would bring back the hatred of elves in Sembia. I would cause troubles in Cormyr to limit their involvement. Except that the Victorious Blade would *never* knowingly ally or associate with the Zhents, since they're "mere" humans, whose very presence in Cormanthor would be a grave insult to all elvenkind. The Zhents would have to use elves (spies) to influence or manipulate the Blade into directly attacking even human settlements - I see no reason why they'd ever attack or harass their kin in Myth Drannor.
clevercommie 07-25-07, 01:52 PM	Does anyone notice that all the threads seem to end up following the exact same format? ... anyone? I swear looking over the boards it reminds me of one of those mad-lib templates where you make up nonsensical stories by inserting random words... I thinks I'm going to give the boards a break for a while.