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| athelstan07-07-03, 12:53 PM | Now that i have your attention, i am asking for some opinions. I am currently about to run INCURSION in my campaign, and i plan on really shaking the realms up. A lot. The way i see it, this will be like WW1 for the FR. And to shake up the realms, i am having the githyanki upset the balance of power early on, by taking out Elminister, Simbul, Khelben, Fzoul and Manshoon (the non-cloned one). My first question is, how would they (the githyanki) feasibly do this and how can i describe it to make it believable to my players. Second, what would the long term effects be with these epic npcs permanently removed from the campaign? (fyi, i am going to have the gith queen use her crown to suck the souls out of these npcs, so no raise or resurrection is possible). What i dont need is people telling me this is impossible. I want to shake things up, and i will be diverging from the FR that we all know and love, so please keep this in mind instead of replying with how invulnerable to every conceived attack these characters are. Any musings on this will be greatly appreciated. If anyone is playing INCURSION currently, i would love to know how it is going. |
| Dark Reaver07-07-03, 01:12 PM | i know you asked for people not to say it was impossible but I feel I have to say that the actual Githyanki race couldnt do it. However, you could have evil guys posing as githyanki start the war so the githyanki get the blame, or you could ally the githyanki with a powerful race such as the illithid or drow. |
| JChung200307-07-03, 01:48 PM | Yawn. |
| Garnet Hardeon07-07-03, 02:01 PM | Hmmmm....well, what's feasible, I would think, is for the githyanki to sever Elminster & Co's silver cords in the Astral with their vorpal silver swords. It's possible, if staged as an ambush just as El is returning from Hell. Doubtless, he'd be fried out, and easy picking for whoever wants to do him in. Same goes for those who tried to help him. (This assumes your DM prerogative. Some people could say this is rather unlikely. Personally, I feel so too.) For the other Chosen of Mystra: it never does well to strike at them directly. Almost (if not all) of them have formidable personal defenses. Spread them thin---even though Mystra was the most prolific in producing Chosen, they can't be everywhere. Invade the Silver Marches, Waterdeep, Aglarond, Evermeet and the Dales all at once. (Wheeeeeeew!) Such an attack won't let the Chosen band together (especially the Sisters, who arguably have the most resources available among the Chosen---2 being monarchs, most senior Harpers...) You did say something like a World War, right? Realmswar, in this case. Tax the Chosen to a point that they have to drop. For the Zhents: make them casualties. Manshoon and Fzoul could be taken in by the rest of the carnage. Have your lead enemy offer alliances only to stab 'em in the back. Or finally let the Chosen in Faerun have a reckoning. Let Semmemon and Ashemmi have a field day marshalling their forces. Don't let the githyanki be the only ones to pull it off. Not too likely---for one thing , limited man power. I suggest mixing things up a little. Githyanki getting an upper hand? Let the githzerai intervene. Let other worlds feel carnage and force Faerun to be a stepping block in a mass exodus of refugees. Some of these might want to help the natives. Others might want to take advantage of the tumult and add to it to stake their own claims. Well, I don't think a lot of people would like this kind of campaign---it's either been done before (perhaps not specific to INCURSION, but I mean the wholesale destruction bit) or people just like their Realms personalities. It's pretty ambitious though. Good luck! |
| Alzrius07-07-03, 02:09 PM | The githyanki are a race that favors psionics...I'd say your best bet is to use the Psionics Are Different option in your FR game...then there's some justification for how their powers would be able to affect Elminster under all the magic he protects himself with. |
| Yamo07-07-03, 02:28 PM | Give the Gith assassins powerful magical (or psionic) items made by the lich queen that allow them to create dead magic zones around their targets... |
| Dan_the_Rathma_Man07-07-03, 04:00 PM | The problem there is that if you have people going around will-dilly creating dead magic zones, then Mystra is going to be royally p*ssed off that they are destroying the Weave/Her. I like the idea of a big old war in Faerun and kill El is a great way to start. And my buddy here thinks that if you brought Bhaal and Myrkul, then it would create a bunch of choas and would start some fighting down on Faerun(think Time of Troubles). I dismiss this idea because we want more death and no raising.:b: :b: :b: But a lot of razing!!!:b: :cool: :b: |
| Yamo07-07-03, 04:10 PM | The problem there is that if you have people going around will-dilly creating dead magic zones, then Mystra is going to be royally p*ssed off that they are destroying the Weave/Her. First of all, you're the GM. Mystra will only get upset if you want her to. Secondly, you can always make the dead magic areas temporary (rule that they fade after their target are killed). Third, if you don't assume that the gods won't interfere directly, you can't have any invasion storyline at all. |
| Alzrius07-07-03, 09:22 PM | Originally posted by Yamo Give the Gith assassins powerful magical (or psionic) items made by the lich queen that allow them to create dead magic zones around their targets... All of Mystra's Chosen can use their silver fire to mend a dead magic zone, restoring it to normal magic. They just only use that ability if their life is in danger. Those assassins would be horrified when El fixes the dead magic zone and then blasts them out of existence. |
| Cthulhu07-08-03, 05:24 AM | Too bad for Elminster that he can't activate the cone of Silverfire INSIDE a dead magic zone. Silverfire is a supernatural ability and is suppressed inside the zone. If El were at the DMZ's border than he could use the cone. As for getting rid of the Chosen...how about not revealing that it happened right away? Let the Gith legions roll over a few nations without a peep from Torils most powerful mages. The players will wonder why, and may quest to the known abodes. But all they find is empty chambers. Divinations are inconclusive or contradictory. The war will have to be fought without them. Later the party may have time to investigate. As it turns out, one of Torils most respected magical champions has become corrupted (how or why depends on you...my vote though would be the Simbul. She is chaotic neutral and perhaps the most likely to experience a sea change in how she views the world). She working in unison with the Gityanki, tricked her fellow Chosen to come to a demiplane that they have been to before. There the traitor springs her trap, either killing them or incapacitating them somehow. The Simbul would have intimate knowledge of every Chosens weakness. She even feigned her love for Elminster in a very long running plot. Heck...the Simbul doesn't even have to be working with the Gith. Her plot may of simply reached culmination when the Gith started the invasion leaving Toril open to invasion. The Gith may of even been aware of her mechinations and timed the invasion for just such an occurence. Why would the Simbul work with the Gith and betray her fellow Chosen? Maybe out of a twisted benevolence. She has long been driven by a need to master magics, and over time has come to see the Weave not as a helpful tool for mages, but as a hateful limitation to Faeruns magical potential. Magic is the Simbuls first love. Mystra as the goddess of the Weave is the symbol of that magical 'oppression'. The Simbul concocts a plan to rip the Weave (and the Shadow Weave for that matter) to shreds. By sponsoring a major invasion of Toril from the Astral plane all sorts of gates and portals will have to be opened and maintained. These are all part of a complicated series of interlinked magical webs that when fully activated have the potential to rip the Weaves apart. Because they are being powered by raw magic from the Astral as well as Toril, Mystra can't simply shut them down. According to the Simbuls theories once the Weaves are smashed and astral energies pour into Toril, magic will function at a level unseen since Netheril. Once this is accomplished she can turn to stemming the invasion and stablizing Faerun according to her vision using her new magical might. yeah...this is a major change to the Simbuls character, but not illogical I think. |
| athelstan07-08-03, 08:38 AM | First off, i appreciate everyones positive feedback immensely. I know this campaign is not for everyone, but I am going out on a limb here with some far-reaching ideas, so you guys are great for helping me out. Cthulu---man, thats just plain brilliant. I have been struggling with these uber-powerful chosen, but to have them taken down by one of their own, man that is just great. The lich-queen is trying to become a god. Maybe shes making a deal with the simbul, and those two are trying to seize godhood, with the simbul attempting to become the new goddess of the weave, and vlaaakith the goddess of ....whatever? Reaaaallly good idea cthulu. Thanks everyone. Keep the ideas coming! |
| Cthulhu07-08-03, 10:19 AM | Thanks! Hope you get some use out of it. I can see the Gith queen using the Simbuls plot in a attempt to replace Mystra as goddess of magic. Thats been her goal all along and probably the main motivation behind her invasion (for herself at least). But I have a harder time seeing the Simbul interested in becoming a goddess. I think her main goal is less the cackling-villianess-out-for-ultimate-power schtick than it is in trying to HELP Faerun. She wants magic to run freely and be available for everyone without the interference of gods or Weaves. She's a risk taker so has concocted this amazingly risky scheme and betrayed her friends out of a twisted idealism. The fact it might create a magical catastrophe bigger than Netherils fall is irrelevant, because if she's RIGHT than everyone benefits. And the Simbul believes she's right. At least this is how I would approach the Simbuls motivations in this story, because I like complicated villians who are not neccessarily evil. Your own game may demand different approaches (if your players don't care about the Simbuls motivations beyond putting a sword in her because she's eeevvvviiilll, than making her a cackling villianess is your best bet). |
| Crust07-08-03, 12:10 PM | I plan on running the Incursion in my Dalelands campaign, and I plan on taking care of Elminster, but the githyanki don't have the power to do so alone. Vaalkith has struck a deal with a group of phaerimm who fled the debacle at Evereska, and she will use them to force Elminster out of the picture. I'm thinking of having a trio of phaerimm assault Elminster at once, cast some joint epic spell, and have all four of them turned to stone. I'd like the PCs to run through Vaalkith's stronghold and find the Old Mage encased in stone, like Han Solo... ... or maybe they'll find him in the Tomb of Horrors. I haven't deciced yet. |
| Jeiroth07-08-03, 12:16 PM | Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm Ok, here's something real far fetched but crazy good I think. First of all, the villians and their ties. Githyanki- Red Dragons (through a pact) Red Dragons- Tiamat (their goddess) Red Dragons- Cult of the Dragon Cult of the Dragon- Undead Dragons Cult of the Dragon-Tiamat (Sammasters resurrection or divine ascention which she does as a means to gather the cult into her folds) Cult of the Dragon- Much Sembian Power and influence You will first see the rise of Tiamat and then Sammaster the Reborn to lead the cult of the dragon. They have come and the time of Undead Dragons draws near according to their doomsayers. Now armed with priests (always the limiter in Cult activities and the believability of their religion) the cult goes on a fervor to claim huge parts of Sembia. Many turn to their church. Tiamat begins to gather a flight of dragons. During a large battle between the new Sammaster, undead dragons, Tiamat and several Chosen of Mystra the Githyanki arrive and tip the scales in the Cult's favor. In a Huge conflagration Elminster and the Simbul is slain by Samaster, but not before they destroy Tiamat. The other chosen are forced to flee as they are severly injured and surprized from the Githyanki invasion. The Githyanki then form the rank and file army the cult needs to begin it's march on the world. They are now based out of Sembia and begin to strike against the lands. Starting with Cormyr. Sammaster is a genious. He knows when to ally himself with powers and when to destroy them. During the destruction of Tiamat (of which he ultimately played a part in) he was given her portfolio. As such he is now a diety, and eager to expand his power. But now as a diety, he cannot directly intervene in affairs. So he moves on to a realm of his own. But much like Bane, his influence is wielded by his new priests. And that of the dragons he commands. Heck no even has to know that Tiamat was destroyed, she does have a reputation that Sammaster does not have. Just keep granting spells and increasing your power and all will be good. So how's that for a storyline? |
| GoodOlWillickers07-08-03, 05:35 PM | WITHOUT using the mad crazy "magic items are everywhere" approach the 3e gives, you could do it this way. If psionics are different, then the major figures in the Realms would have some protection from psionics. If they didn't how could they have survived 1e (that's based on guestimation tho. I never played 1e, just seen the books)? And also, you seem to be forgetting about contingencies. Particularly one particularly powerful customized contingency used by Elminster that happened to have been exploited by Good Ol' Volo (see my "Where's Volo?" post). You would have to get around the trigger conditions of Elminster's Evasion (taken from the old Forgotten Realms Adventures) book. 1. Upon his own death 2. Upon loss of his mental faculties 3. Upon loss of his physical faculties 4. Upon destruction of both upper limbs 5. Upon destruction of total body volume 6. Upon his utterance of the word "Thaele" The secret would be finding out Elminster's "safehouse" and somehow getting him when his Evasion spell takes him there. Then they have to avoid the wrath of Mystra (or her personal intervention in saving him from death), blah, blah, blah... And that's just Elminster. The main thing you have to remember is that if you're over 10th level and have never seen a god in all of your adventuring days on Toril, you'd best just pack youer bags and go home cause you suck at life. What this comes down to in game terms is that with a Githyanki incursion of Toril, you will not only have lots of ****** off people, but lots of ****** of gods. And also remember that Kara-Tur, Mulhorand, Maztica, Zakhara and all the races also have their own pantheons that would also be fairly ******. All I'm saying is don't be retarted about it. Keep it believable, but still fantasy. *breathes* Peace -Will |
| GoodOlWillickers07-08-03, 05:38 PM | I forgot that this board censors, so anything in my little explaination that says "******" was originally a word that's used for anger a lot, but usually refers to "using the facilities." If you still can't get it, just fill in the stars with the word "peeved." Peace -Will |
| Dan_the_Rathma_Man07-08-03, 05:55 PM | Originally posted by GoodOlWillickers Keep it believable, but still fantasy. I think that is a good way to run anything. If you go with the DMZ idea, which I like, remember that a deity that is having part of its self killed, even for a short time, would be very angry. They might even be mad enough to come down and rain holy death upon the heads of the the poeple that are "attacking" her. But, in the end, the only thing that matters is how you want the thing to work. Thank you for you time. |
| The Simbul07-09-03, 04:28 AM | Originally posted by Yamo First of all, you're the GM. Mystra will only get upset if you want her to. By that same logic, since youre the DM, Mystra and all of her Chosen can be level 1 commoners with an INT of 3 and a rusty pitchfork -1 that they are not proficient with...If you honestly think the Goddess of Magic, who IS the Weave itself, is not going to be ****** that someone is punching holes in her own physical manifestation, then you may as well throw out the rest of the canon material. In order to create a Dead Magic Zone you have to be able to affect the Weave itself, usually in a particularly abusive way. Since only Weave spellcasters can affect the Weave, that means that if Mystra wants to prevent the creation of a Dead Magic Zone then it simply isnt created. Barring even that, if some "githyanki queen" can dole out "temporary DMZ psionic items" then surely Mystra can blink her left eye and twitch her nose to repair those Dead Magic areas with a fraction of the effort. You can only kill someone in Astral Travel by "severing their astral cord" if they are actually using Astral Projection. Elminster and the Simbul use Teleport, Planeshift, Gate and numerous other transportation spells, but to EXIT hell they would not use Astral Projection or any similar effect since it doesnt actually transport you, it transports your astral body. In AD&D Elminster had psionic abilities, PSP's, and all attack/defense modes in order to prevent sci-fi munchkins from abusing the loopholes in the rules regarding psionics vs magic at that time. Assuming that magical defenses dont protect against psionic assaults, chances are he would have alternate abilities to defend himself. The idea that The Simbul would go AWOL, and conspire against her sisters and the other chosen is not very well founded. The Seven Sisters were created by Mystra and their consciences are not their own. The Simbul could not do much of anything without Mystra knowing of it, and her powers (and access to the weave) could easily be stripped if such an act of mutiny were to take place. Chaotic Neutrality does not = stupidity As a general point of reference: from The Seven Sisters The Seven are always watchful for any ploy or unfolding scheme that might accidentally or deliberately bring any one of them into contact with another Sister (or with Khelben or Elminster). The moment they realize what is occurring or about to happening and they are very sensitive and perceptive in this regard and they cease whatever activities might bring them into conflict. They then turn to discovering just who or what is behind the situation. Swift and ruthless justice follows… …An obvious trap should never capture or defeat a Sister, though one may play along to learn what it is all about. Simple spells or psionics should never bring about the downfall of any of the Chosen. |
| Yamo07-09-03, 06:27 AM | By that same logic, since youre the DM, Mystra and all of her Chosen can be level 1 commoners with an INT of 3 and a rusty pitchfork -1 that they are not proficient with...If you honestly think the Goddess of Magic, who IS the Weave itself, is not going to be ****** that someone is punching holes in her own physical manifestation, then you may as well throw out the rest of the canon material. Stupid argument. Using that argument, why would any of the FR gods put up with some extraplanar dorks invading their world? They wouldn't, of course, and athelstan's potentially fun campaign idea goes right out the window. Why don't you try enabling his fun instead of shooting him down out of hand because D00D MY FAVORITE NOVAL CHRACTER IS SO STRONG NOTHANG CAN KILL HER D00D? :rolleyes: The Simbul is just another NPC, and all NPCs are equally disposable when it improves the story. And get over the canon nonsense. It's a game world. Anything that doesn't facilitate the gaming group's enjoyment is an obstacle and should be modified or ignored. Period. Canon is cold comfort when all it does it throw up roadblocks in front of your fun ideas. Think outside the box. I, for one, want to see athelstan's campaign succeed for him and his players. Since I'm willing to be that none of those players are named Ed Greenwood, FR canon can take a long walk down a short pier for all I care. :smirk: |
| athelstan07-09-03, 09:08 AM | Thanks yamo, i appreciate it. I knew this thread might make some people groan, and its not for everyone, so if you get all offended that im not running my campaign exactly as you or ed greenwood would, then dont waste your time telling me why my idea isnt gonna work. Just skip ahead to the next thread:D ! However, it doesnt mean dont show me possible holes in plans or reasons why some stated courses of action might be problematic. Tell me why, and the tell me how to get around it at the same time. Thats the help im looking for. Also, i wonder if everyone who is responding to this thread has read the INCURSION storyline in DRAGON and DUNGEON magazines. Just so everyone knows, its not like i thought this up, this is a mega event from wotc, and they talk about taking down elminister and the 7 sisters in it. What they dont talk about is specifics and long term affects of this, that is why i am asking from help from my fellow board members. If you havent read INCURSION, i strongly suggest it, its a real over-the-top kinda epic invasion that i thought would be fun to play. Check it out. And please dont get steamed when you realize that im gonna do away with major npcs that we all know and love. I really have nothing against ed greenwoods perfect epic characters, im just wondering what would happen to the delicate balance of power when they are permanently removed. Once again, your ideas for enriching this storyline are more than welcome. Thanks for everyones help. I do appreciate it. |
| ENHenry07-09-03, 12:45 PM | How does one kill Elminster? Well, first, eliminate that silly error with him being immune to time stops. Second, The Gith start getting their hands on EXTREMELY EXPENSIVE genstones. The PC's if they have any planar connections might find out through contacts in Sigil or another interplanar city that a mysterious force is gathering large gemstones. Third, They ambush Elminster, using extremely powerful magics, and timestop from a scroll in his immediate vicinity. Fourth, They encase him in as many steel chains as they can feasibly have available. It's not an attack, it's not a spell, you just wrap him up immobile as fast as possible. Fifth, use an Antimagic field from a scroll to end the Time stop effect before it finishes. Sixth, coup de grace Elminster as soon as possible. Sixth, another spellcaster uses a trap the soul spell from outside the anti-magic field. Seventh, take this big honking gem with you when you return to the astral, giving it to the Queen. Keep in mind, the supply of 40,000 gold piece gems may be rare on Faerun, but not necessarily elsewhere. The stage is set for his return, if you wish, by raiding the Githyanki Queen's stronghold, but also he could easily vanish for good, too. From there, the other Chosen become hunted dogs, constantly looking over their shoulders, because the queen may have another ambush planned if they show up to play a part in any battle. Think of the Chosen as "really big game to hunt" and the picture changes quite drastically. |
| Dan_the_Rathma_Man07-09-03, 12:56 PM | That is a great way to get El. And it makes it so that El could come back if that raid happens. |
| Cthulhu07-09-03, 01:44 PM | Originally posted by The Simbul By that same logic, since youre the DM, Mystra and all of her Chosen can be level 1 commoners with an INT of 3 and a rusty pitchfork -1 that they are not proficient with...If you honestly think the Goddess of Magic, who IS the Weave itself, is not going to be ****** that someone is punching holes in her own physical manifestation, then you may as well throw out the rest of the canon material. Yamo covered this pretty well. I don't need to cover THAT ground. In order to create a Dead Magic Zone you have to be able to affect the Weave itself, usually in a particularly abusive way. Since only Weave spellcasters can affect the Weave, that means that if Mystra wants to prevent the creation of a Dead Magic Zone then it simply isnt created. Barring even that, if some "githyanki queen" can dole out "temporary DMZ psionic items" then surely Mystra can blink her left eye and twitch her nose to repair those Dead Magic areas with a fraction of the effort. This is manifestly untrue. Mystra and all her incarnations have shown some amazing blind spots in thier careers. How else would a mere mortal like Karsus slay an incarnation and nearly destroy the Weave with a single spell? The gods are not impossible to deal with, only very difficult. In AD&D Elminster had psionic abilities, PSP's, and all attack/defense modes in order to prevent sci-fi munchkins from abusing the loopholes in the rules regarding psionics vs magic at that time. Assuming that magical defenses dont protect against psionic assaults, chances are he would have alternate abilities to defend himself. Maybe, maybe not. Elminster has amazing insight, for a mortal. But I wouldn't go so far as to say that makes him automatically immune to everything out there. Besides if the DM is using the 'Psionics is not Magic' option than its not a loophole in the rules, but rather a weakness in a single characters supposed invulnerability. The idea that The Simbul would go AWOL, and conspire against her sisters and the other chosen is not very well founded. The Seven Sisters were created by Mystra and their consciences are not their own. The Simbul could not do much of anything without Mystra knowing of it, and her powers (and access to the weave) could easily be stripped if such an act of mutiny were to take place. I disagree. Whatever the origins of the Seven Sisters, they have had centuries to grow into there own power and personalities. They are unique individuals. Nothing I have read implies that Mystra can (or wants to) treat them like puppets. Mystra CAN be fooled by mortals. The Simbul being an epic level character has a fairly good chance if she plans well. Besides if the dozens of villians plotting to destroy or conquer the world can find some convenient way to prevent the gods interference than why should the Symul be any different? Chaotic Neutrality does not = stupidity No, it doesn't. But it DOES imply a very strong conviction in one's own morality & beliefs, to the point that other viewpoints may be disregarded out of hand. The Simbuls betrayal hinges on this particular aspect of her personality. The Seven Sisters are a strong united group. They work well together. They are united by a common vision. In that way they resemble the Knights of the Round Table. But than we all know what happened to the Round Table don't we? |
| The Simbul07-10-03, 01:53 AM | Yamo And get over the canon nonsense. It's a game world. Anything that doesn't facilitate the gaming group's enjoyment is an obstacle and should be modified or ignored. Period. Canon is cold comfort when all it does it throw up roadblocks in front of your fun ideas. Think outside the box. It's a SHARED game world, "canon nonsense" act as the basic norms people weigh their mutual assumptions against to create continuity. If the sole role of a DM is to only present things that will "facilitate the gaming group's enjoyment" then there is little point to playing the game at all. Any obstacle, rule, or guideline would fall under the subjective definition of "roadblocks in front of your fun ideas". You may as well simply choose and write your stats, equipment, skills, XP, level, and a biography not constrained by obscelete concepts like "logic" and "reason", and simply toss the character sheet into a drawer and be done with it. D&D is a game of challenges, and not all challenges are meant to be surmountable. The Chosen of Mystra arent listed in the Monsters Manual, Monsters Manual II, or Monsters of Faerun, therefore presenting an adventuring plot to destroy them is a legitimate target for criticism. If your logic assumes that a Greater Deity reacting to a direct assault on her portfolio constitutes "D00D gaming" then i would hate to see your definition of a "challenging" campaign. why would any of the FR gods put up with some extraplanar dorks invading their world? For the record 3.0 FR is isolated from the other planes. |
| athelstan07-20-03, 01:00 AM | ok, all of this stuff is really good, now has anyone thought of the long term effects that the absence of the high level chosens of whatever would have on the realms? |
| Alac Luin07-20-03, 01:09 PM | Toril isnt that much of a stranger on being invaded, the city of shade just invaded from the plane of shadows.... sure it was at one time native but that was like a long time ago. Did the gods react? Did Mystra's chosen immediatly go destry the city? No, why not? Becouse if the gods or thier did everything, adventuring would be kind of boring. If it was a limited invation, say just the dales or just the Border kingdoms, or just whatever your charicters are at, nobody but the local heros would react. If you MUST do something with the chosen of mystra, heck they are busy, The gith queen's undead army is keeping tthem busy, An imprompto Dragon flight of red dragons, A demon lord planing on stealing the divine spark once the Gith queen attains it, This demon lord would be much scarier if it gets attains godhood. Realy, they (the PC's) are the only hope to accomplish this campain. Thats all they need to know. The plan for the qween to acheave godhood, Great!! AO's rassoning, if all these Gith are going to move onto my material plane, they should have a panthion of thier own, none of you other gods are to interfear here. Just a few thoughts |
| Maskanodel07-20-03, 01:15 PM | Originally posted by Alac Luin Toril isnt that much of a stranger on being invaded, the city of shade just invaded from the plane of shadows.... sure it was at one time native but that was like a long time ago. Did the gods react? Did Mystra's chosen immediatly go destry the city? No, why not? Actually I'm pretty sure they did. Five of them at least. In the Sorcerer by Troy Denning I think. |
| Alac Luin07-20-03, 01:30 PM | Ok, you got me, I really need to catch up ion my reading then:embarrass Besides that, my belief is, as DM, you dont need to explain WHY, El isnt saving the day. They have other things to do that we dont know about and PCs will never know. |
| Cthulhu07-20-03, 01:45 PM | So the Chosen did interfere with Shade? But I notice its still there... Even WotC recognizes that it can't solve every problem with its novels and than try to shove it down the players throats. |
| Nomed the Vile07-20-03, 03:31 PM | I like your Idea. I got rid of El back before anything on the Chosen had come out. Myself and some players put a plan together I ran the basics of it by another GM (who loves good old El ) . He agreed that the basic plan would work. So i found a GM who didn't know either of us. We set up a game several people played for both sides. Let's just say old El is a statue in the heart of a sun in a virgin sphere ten years travel through the flow. After that Cormyr went down. It took 20 yrs game time but I finnally got rid it. Gorgi Wyvernspur is the King in exile. What was once Cormyr is now the great Orc empire of "the Tribe of the Red Hand" These guys will give the scro a run for there money. |
| Gotrex07-20-03, 03:53 PM | nomad your campaign sounds great :) |
| Nomed the Vile07-20-03, 04:02 PM | Originally posted by Gotrex nomad your campaign sounds great :) Thanks it's be a nightmare for somethings that come out now are hard to incorperate. |
| Xae'an07-20-03, 07:27 PM | Originally posted by JChung2003 Yawn. I couldn't agree more - more of this never ending "I'm gonna kill Elminster" stuff. Just about Yamo's statement ("think outside the box"). Killing Elminster is that first thing i'd consider thinking inside the box, since this seems the first and simplest straight forward solution for evil invaders that comes to my mind - that's what most people would imagine - due to a lack a ideas. For my own campaign I would wait for such an invasion scenario until the PCs are really powerful - and then make them the main targets of the invaders. Being passive spectators without the ability to change the course of events is a rather unsatisfiing thing for the players - but if they are the Gith's main enemy, they would know that the fate of the world depends on them, they may destroy parts of Faerun - may even kill one of the Chosen, but a DM should rather try to think for a way how to bring the PCs into such a plot then of a way to kill Elminster. |
| Stormtalon07-20-03, 08:18 PM | I'm just about to start an Incursion Campaign in FR, basing the characters out of Aglarond to start with. The invasion itself starts in two places; Zhentil Keep (way, way west of them) and in Thay. Why those two locations? Zhentil Keep, well, nobody really cares what happens to them (initially). And Thay, which is where the players are going to be headed, I chose because logically, what the Red Wizards will most likely do is shut their borders hard and try to stop the Githyanki themselves. All the characters will know is that suddenly, their nasty neighbor to the east has just gotten very, very QUIET and nobody knows why. Meanwhile, the Chosen are going to be kept busy in various ways; Alustriel, for example, is going to be busy with a massive horde of orcs rushing down (engineered by the Githyanki from behind the scenes). Something BIG is unleashed in the warrens of Undermountain, causing the entire city of Waterdeep to shake from time to time (a B'kallash Dreadnought or two will keep Khelben busy for long enough for the Githyanki to get a good, solid foothold). As for Elminster and the Simbul -- well, I'll just send them off on.... "vacation." Ultrapowerful mages need some quiet time too, don'tcha know. Stormtalon |
| The_Sleeper07-20-03, 08:34 PM | Keep me posted on how your campaign is going. it sounds GREAT! i love some of the ideas im hearing. id recomend keeping a log of all the major events that take place. you know, just notes taken as it progresses. its kool cause when its all over, you can look at everything that happened and possibly convert it into a story or fanfic. just some suggestions, but i would love to read a good story like that, ROFL.:cool: |
| Yamo07-20-03, 09:16 PM | but a DM should rather try to think for a way how to bring the PCs into such a plot then of a way to kill Elminster. Why? Is it really difficult to understand that he's just another disposable NPC? You seem so irrationally opposed to the idea of anybody killing him off by any means for any reason that it's just weird. He's a fictional character and can't appreciate your "devotion", expecially not in somebody else's campaign. Take off the fanboy blinders, please. Maybe you really dig the Elmister novels, or something, but this isn't a novel, it's a game, and Elminster is not a main character (PC). It's no big deal. athelstan's plan to off Elmister in his campaign does not need to be averted by you or anyone else. Chill. |
| athelstan07-21-03, 12:24 AM | First question xae'en, have you read INCURSION? Because if you have, then it SPECIFICALLY STATES TO KILL OFF ELMINISTER AND THE CHOSEN!!!! Its not some munchkin fantasy of mine, and i aint trying to slam greenwood, i am following the rules of the storyline. Perhaps you have encountered this type of thing before, I am sure you have played the events of a module before. Did your dm do things that were written in the module? If he did, that is what I am going to do. I'm not the author of INCURSION so go yawn to him if you aint gonna help. I didnt ask for acceptance or for you to like it, but i did ask for help. Once again people, read INCURSION if you are going to throw in negative criticism. I dont mind it, but if you have read INCURSION, then you would know that the big boys get taken care off. Then your plan of the pcs takes center stage. I am going to run incursion. The chosen and big EL and fzoul and possibly szass are gonna take a permanent dirt nap due to the queens crown. If you wanna know what it is, pick up dungeon #100. No chance of coming back after that. The reason that the githyanki go after them is because they are the most obvious threat to their plans. Now does anyone have any thoughts on what would happen when the big epic npcs are permanently taken away from the realms? Please do not respond with yawns or why they would not be hurt. Start a different thread about that if you want, that would be fine. But if you have ideas on what would happen to the realms in the long term of them having a noticeable lack of chosen I listen with eager anticipation |
| Stormtalon07-21-03, 12:37 AM | Actually, it doesn't state that you MUST kill them off. It does say that if you keep them around, you need to provide good reasons why they're not charging in to head the Lich-Queen's armies off themselves. As I described in my upcoming Incursion, there's going to be a host of simultaneous distractions for most of the biggies to be dealing with much closer to home. Now, Szass Tam, I'm afraid, is going to have to go bye-bye. After all, Thay is the heart of the invasion in what I'm planning, so he gets a nice big "retirement party." (Translation -- most of the Thaymount goes BOOM). I'll keep most of the big guys around, though, for the post-invasion mopping up party. Stormtalon |
| Alac Luin07-21-03, 01:36 AM | How about, Elminster promised Ed green would he would move, of better yet, a power outage happaned and El is keeping Ed's computor working by use spells and such so Ed can finish whatever FR accesory he is curently working on. The 7 sisters are attending a famaly reuinon in the Pocino Mountains(NY state) and the meshugina desk clerk hasn't foworded any messages. Drizzit is playing with orcs. Entreri is busy teaching Jaraxle the ways of the surface world while Jaraxle is bussy teaching Entreri to, well, be human. I like the Idea of invading Thay, has good reason to be secret about the invasion. Personally, If I was tactition, I wouldent start an invasion with nation of 4000 wizards and countless undead/darken beasts ... but thats not what this thread is about :) All you need is to tell the players the big boys are bussy elswhere..... Githzari atttacking another part of Toril(Eventually) to get thier own foothold in attempt to stop Githyanki Plans(or do I have that backwords?) Mind flayers are gathering thier forces, they just know that the gith are here for them. Here's an Idea that the guy with the Scro referance can relate to, Pirates of Gith invade the Rock of Brail en mass to use agenst thier cousons in they need to...... There are thosands of ways to keep the big guns out of the picture. The only one you need to know is "I'm the DM and I said they are busy elswhere!" Anywho, happy Gith hunting :D |
| Yamo07-21-03, 06:26 AM | Now does anyone have any thoughts on what would happen when the big epic npcs are permanently taken away from the realms? A lot of the powerful enemies they previously kept in check are going to be able to run wild. This can have two consequences: a) They might continue to pursue their goals of mayhem and conquest either despite the Incursion, or because the chaos it causes makes a good distraction. This would make the situation even more hellish for the innocents of Faerun. b) They might actually seek to ally themselves with Faerun's remaining heroes to fight off the world's common enemy under an "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" assumption. The Cult of the Dragon can't put dracoliches on the thrones of Faerun if the Gith are already there, after all. That could certainly cause some interesting roleplaying, as the PCs have to get cozy with their new "allies!" |
| Gotrex07-21-03, 07:09 AM | Xae'an the reason everyone who runs incursion kills elminster is because if the invaders dont try to kill him and the chosen then they are obviously to stupid to stand any chance of invading faerun elminster + chosen are the ones always saving the world so logical thing to do is to kill them off so they cant do it |
| Klyden07-21-03, 04:35 PM | You...kill Elminster?...hahaha...that's a good one! He's CR 39 and he has the power to kick ass, take names, and kick more ass, then start chewing bubble gum. If your DM knows anything about how to play a proper Campaign, then good old Elm already knows your going to try and kill him. I offer a prayer to the Gods to somehow make sure that what's left of your ashes will find a good burial. |
| Vix Damnul07-21-03, 06:36 PM | Have the gith ally with the kir-lanan as a nifty extra ally. After all, both have nothing to do with gods, and it serves the gith well to have allies who seek to kill the gods. The massive loss of worshippers would also serve to mess with the different chosen. In fact, you could have the kir-lanan scout out places for the gith, the gith start cults, etc. |
| Xae'an07-21-03, 07:09 PM | I didn't read Incursion as I don't have a chance to get it - getting FR material in Austria is sometimes difficult - e.g. I waited 8 months to get Faiths and Pantheons. I only have noticable experience as a DM, though I participated as a player once for a short time. I haven't ever played a module but always written my own stories - and none of the players have complained about that. I only know that Incursion is about a Gith invasion on Faerun that threatens the whole world - and I would really only use such a plot if the PCs were powerful enough that the invaders view them as their main obstacle and not Elminster. If you want to kill El so deperatly let the Gith join forces with a powerful evil deity - propably Shar - who helps them create anti-magic zones, disrupt the weave or makes the Lich Queen her chosen - and thus powerful enough to kill Elminster. But there's nothing more annoying for players than to sit by and watch without the ability to change anything - that much I've learned from my own time as a DM - trust me the players won't like it! It's not the question wether you like Elminster (I often have to force myself to kill NPCs I like to add some tragic element to the story) or not. If you do kill him, make it short and not the main plot of your campaign. Yamo's remarks on the other hand are not worth further commenting. |
| Stormtalon07-21-03, 09:28 PM | Originally posted by Xae'an I didn't read Incursion as I don't have a chance to get it - getting FR material in Austria is sometimes difficult - e.g. I waited 8 months to get Faiths and Pantheons. I only have noticable experience as a DM, though I participated as a player once for a short time. I haven't ever played a module but always written my own stories - and none of the players have complained about that. I only know that Incursion is about a Gith invasion on Faerun that threatens the whole world - and I would really only use such a plot if the PCs were powerful enough that the invaders view them as their main obstacle and not Elminster. If you want to kill El so deperatly let the Gith join forces with a powerful evil deity - propably Shar - who helps them create anti-magic zones, disrupt the weave or makes the Lich Queen her chosen - and thus powerful enough to kill Elminster. But there's nothing more annoying for players than to sit by and watch without the ability to change anything - that much I've learned from my own time as a DM - trust me the players won't like it! It's not the question wether you like Elminster (I often have to force myself to kill NPCs I like to add some tragic element to the story) or not. If you do kill him, make it short and not the main plot of your campaign. Yamo's remarks on the other hand are not worth further commenting. Incursion isn't Realms-specific, actually. It's from Dragon Magazine 309 & Dungeon Magazine 100. They've got hints on how to run it in both Greyhawk and the Realms in the Dragon article. Stormtalon |
| Ivarrius07-21-03, 09:47 PM | I am not so sure that it would be so easy to destroy the Chosen of Mystra, for many of the reasons that have already been posted, BUT, and this is a big one, I don't see running a campaign like this to be too far fetched. Do you all remember the time fo troubles? That is a very unlikely prospect to have looked forward to but thus, it came about. So an Invasion in the realms could be done, with careful planning and a hefty element of surprise. But as far as killing the chosen, why not just have them temporarily disposed of for a while. Bring the campaign to a point of urgency that means the PC's will haev to work even harder in investigation, battle against the giths and eventually, when the chosen return, they can fight the war along side them. Every Player loves to have contact with those powerful NPC. Perhaps a god vs god war could be worked out, and the gith are part of the forces to do so. its not a Gith Planned invasion at all, but a careful twisted plot of Shar, working her Shadow Weave against Mystra's weave? I am pretty sure that if Shar had some way to banish the chosen, she would, and then would keep Mystra's attention away from Fauerun/Toril long enough to have the Gith's invade, allied with a large Sharite Army. This way, the chosen sense no conspiracy, and Mystra is caught by surprise.. leaving manya spell caster on Faerun, strapped for spells. Easy Invasion time. Justa few ideas... |
| Nomed the Vile07-22-03, 12:48 AM | Would someone please explain to me why are so many people apposed to the idea of killing off Elminster. How many people here are going to be playing in this game? Why not offer some advice on some believeable ways this could be acomplished. It seems to me that some of you could benefit from some creative thinking! |
| afromonkey07-22-03, 08:06 AM | about being immune to time stops, time stop really only affects the caster, as it speeds him up so much that everything seems to stop - therefore elminster really isn't as clever as he seems, or so it appears, as all his time stop immunity has done is caused him to be unable to affect himself with that spell... at least, that's how I see it - this can probably - like the rest of the time stop effects be interpreted differently |
| Bogard Ironbow07-22-03, 09:54 AM | you are the dm but the githyanki kill EL I realize this is fantasy but that is about as believable as george bush going another 4 year term without invading anybody! |
| Cthulhu07-22-03, 01:56 PM | There is no logic in the stance that Elminster should be invulnerable. Hes got wizard levels, saving throw numbers, armore class, etc. He's just like every other epic character. Sure he's wily and experienced. But like every character his luck is one day going to run out. In Athelstan's game that day just happens to be the day the Gith invade. |
| Yamo07-22-03, 03:14 PM | There is no logic in the stance that Elminster should be invulnerable. Hes got wizard levels, saving throw numbers, armore class, etc. He's just like every other epic character. Sure he's wily and experienced. But like every character his luck is one day going to run out. In Athelstan's game that day just happens to be the day the Gith invade. He's not invulnerable. At all. Here's a little in-character quote from Elminster taken from the FRCS: "The forces arrayed against us are dark and strong indeed. I might surprise Manshoon or old Szass Tam and burn him from the face of Toril - or he might do the same to me." Even he knows his ticket's likely to get punched eventually by SOMEBODY. It might as well be by whoever is going to make athelstan's campaign most interesting. |
| athelstan07-22-03, 04:53 PM | "you are the dm but the githyanki kill EL I realize this is fantasy but that is about as believable as george bush going another 4 year term without invading anybody!" Hmmm, believability, lets see here, ok how about dragons being real, is that believable? Or maybe some guy learning how to make an explosive fireball from reading runes in an old book, is that believable? Or running up the walls with the power of your mind, is that believable? Or the fact that a bunch of uber-powerful hot silver haired chicks are all attracted to Ed Greenwoods character who is crotchety, unkempt, pudgy and bearded...yeah thats believable too. Take a step back kid, this is dnd, its a fantasy game, leave believability at the door. Learn some typing skills and come back to me when you have something useful to say. |
| Aelreth07-22-03, 05:23 PM | El has more contingencies than politicians have excuses You will literally have to cover all of faerun then go to earth to finally kill him |
| Desies07-22-03, 07:00 PM | The best advice I can give you is that you are the DM. WoTC and the other big time DND figure heads realize that people are going to have campaigns in which stuff like this happens. Remeber no one will be offended or will go out and change books and rules and stuff because your campaign killed off the strongest mages in Toril. Furthermore, I think that this is a great way for some new heroes to arise, both player and non-player. Even the evil NPC's and PC will want to save their own skins. You are going to have an entire planet band together (if they plan on surviving) to combat this huge evil. This is the first time they have to do this without those extremely powerful mages. Lots of people are going to rise up and take charge...the PCs obviously but so will NPCs. This could very well be the first time all of the NPC's will be in one place at one time trying to get the same thing done. Drizzt, Wulfgar, Bruenar, Alusair Obarskyr, and even evil NPC's like Jezz the Lame, Hadrhune, and Artemis Entretri. New heroes will definately be made this way! As for the gods...if they were dissmissed and removed some how then they wouldn't be a problem would they? |
| Xae'an07-22-03, 07:37 PM | Originally posted by Stormtalon Incursion isn't Realms-specific, actually. It's from Dragon Magazine 309 & Dungeon Magazine 100. They've got hints on how to run it in both Greyhawk and the Realms in the Dragon article. Stormtalon Thanks for the advise, now I have that Dragon Magazine (I always get them a bit later, but that's the way it is). But I still think the Gith would need some help from Shar. |
| Stormtalon07-22-03, 08:47 PM | Originally posted by Xae'an Thanks for the advise, now I have that Dragon Magazine (I always get them a bit later, but that's the way it is). But I still think the Gith would need some help from Shar. Possibly, but my players have had enough trouble on account of Shar. One of the first things I did to them -- well, a different set of their characters, mind you -- is set them off on a chase to try to prevent an illegitimate son of Shar and Vhaeraun from resurrecting himself. That little mess wound up with their psion permanently bleached as a side effect. So, I'm making the Githyanki extra clever. One of the tricks they're going to do to Thay, for example, is a nasty use of Gate, taking advantage of the fact there's no gravity in the Astral plane. A 20' wide, 100' long hunk of astral debris dropped from a gate 5000' above a city/wizard's tower is going to do a huge amount of damage. Plus, it's something even the paranoid Red Wizards simply won't expect. Thaymount is gonna go boom in a big way, and Eltabbar is gonna get one of those smack dab in the center of the symbol.... Stormtalon |
| Ivarrius07-22-03, 09:54 PM | Originally posted by Nomed the Vile Would someone please explain to me why are so many people apposed to the idea of killing off Elminster. How many people here are going to be playing in this game? Why not offer some advice on some believeable ways this could be acomplished. It seems to me that some of you could benefit from some creative thinking! You are right, this thread was started in order to help with the Incursion Mod, and you are right, it can feasably be possible to kill Elminster in any game, and you all are also right, creative thinking can be more effectively used here. But as far as Killing Elminster, it may be a little more a case of ignoring some pretty hefty game mechanics as well as some existing storylines and plotlines. Elminster has died before, and Mystra has brought him back, as well as saved him upon the brink of death before. And being a Chosen of Mystra would potentially bring these same divine gifts and blessings into place for the other chosen as well. Now I am not trying to be the final word here, but it may be a good idea to keep some of this stuff in mind. Work around the rules and stories in order to find the best fit, or rely on the simple 'I am the DM' rule. Its up to you, ofcourse, but these are some things to think about. |
| WraithXIII07-27-03, 12:21 AM | I actually did something like this awhile back, when I was feeling particulry evil. I united the realms under the banner of one man, who then combined the world's armies and fought against a swirling tide of orcs, ogres, giants, goblins, Zhents and various other creatures. Problem was, after a couple of years or two this man actually was worse than any evil army. With the world under his control, he weakened the gods and brought the planet to a grinding halt, more or less. The PC's are currently fighting a chromatic 5 headed dragon who is not Tiamat, but similiar. When its all said and done the characters will wake up in MMyth Drannor, with no idea who they are except the lives they've lived in this parellel dimension. But the apocalypse scenario is tricky and I could have done it better if I took my time, but I was getting bored of it, so I created an out. Be careful that you make everything plausible and don't be afraid to use third and forth party agents to do your bidding! |
| WraithXIII07-27-03, 12:21 AM | I actually did something like this awhile back, when I was feeling particulry evil. I united the realms under the banner of one man, who then combined the world's armies and fought against a swirling tide of orcs, ogres, giants, goblins, Zhents and various other creatures. Problem was, after a couple of years or two this man actually was worse than any evil army. With the world under his control, he weakened the gods and brought the planet to a grinding halt, more or less. The PC's are currently fighting a chromatic 5 headed dragon who is not Tiamat, but similiar. When its all said and done the characters will wake up in MMyth Drannor, with no idea who they are except the lives they've lived in this parellel dimension. But the apocalypse scenario is tricky and I could have done it better if I took my time, but I was getting bored of it, so I created an out. Be careful that you make everything plausible and don't be afraid to use third and forth party agents to do your bidding! |
| Desies07-27-03, 12:35 AM | Do you mind telling me why you posted the same thing twice? |
| TheShadowOfMyFormerSelf07-27-03, 12:48 AM | Originally posted by Desies Do you mind telling me why you posted the same thing twice? He probably clicked "Submit Reply" once too often. Double-posts happen a lot on message boards... |
| Kuje3107-27-03, 01:01 AM | Originally posted by TheShadowOfMyFormerSelf He probably clicked "Submit Reply" once too often. Double-posts happen a lot on message boards... Granted he might have, but his second reply was FIVE DAYS later? I doubt it was a mix up...... :) |