Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Oberon 05-02-04, 05:25 AM	So say you have a party with a follower of mystra and a follower of shar. say both of their alignments can lean to the neutral side and maybe they have alot in common. How much can you hate some one for having a the opposite faith than you? Do you think you could come up with a plausible way for them to coexist? What about a selune/shar combo, or and other combination of followers who are opposed.
Cunning Linguist 05-02-04, 06:42 AM	I don't think that will work. Shar hates Mystra not for any other reason then the fact that she exists. How can the mystra cleric even come close to agreeing with this? There is no leyway, either mystra does not exist, or Shar hates her.
Sammael_the_Chosen 05-02-04, 07:22 AM	The combo wouldn't work if characters were clerics, because Shar's second greatest desire (after the destruction of Selune) is the destruction of Mystra and gaining the portfolio of magic. The cleric's alignment is secondary to his/her deity's wishes. However, if it's lay followers, I don't see why not. There would be much unease, certainly, but Shar overlooks the portfolios of loss and the Underdark (stolen from Ibrandul) and she has numerous nonevil followers who worship her because of those two portfolios (many people turn to Shar after the loss of a loved one or a similar event).
Forsaken_Rocker 05-02-04, 11:48 AM	It would be possible in a desperate situation, say a greater foe (selune) or where they need each other for specific things.
Oberon 05-02-04, 06:38 PM	The combo wouldn't work if characters were clerics, because Shar's second greatest desire (after the destruction of Selune) is the destruction of Mystra and gaining the portfolio of magic. The cleric's alignment is secondary to his/her deity's wishes. Sure the two dieties would never get along, but how closely must a cleric mirror their gods. Shar may hate mystra and selune, but thats not part of her portfolio and thats not why people worship her. And the destruction of a single cleric of a rival godess isn't that big a blow that mystra would feel it. Sure they would probly try to undermine each others faith, but must it turn violent. Priest arn't little avatars that they have to mirrior their dieties exactly. Their are evil clerics of mystra. Cleric only need to adhere to the god's portfolio's and rivrialy does not equate to open hostility.
Bill Druid Guy 05-03-04, 01:50 PM	I agree conceptually with Oberon but in a case where the exsistance of the shadow weave is pretty strong proof that she is trying to take out Mystra, or atleast severaly weakening her, how do you dedicate your life to a diety then have lunch with a person dedicated to killing yoru diety? But you need to keep in mind most Sharites are not upfront about who they worship, things hidden give her power. All in all I would say they would refuse to work together if not kill each other, especially the Sharite, they are tasked with destroing the faiths of Selune and Mystra, not attacking the Mystran in his/her sleep would be shirking their duties to their god. Kinda like a follower of Cheantea let a follower fo Malar or Talos just exsist. They would keep close tabs on them, and possibly arrest them and work within the law to prevent them from spreading chaos and destruction.
Taelohn 05-03-04, 01:57 PM	The Shadow Weave is not quite equal to the Weave; it is like an "echo" and is less powerful. Shar is not as powerful as Mystra, which is why she works secretly and tries to undermine her from behind the scenes. She would try to weaken Mystra, steal her powers... but destroy outright? Eh... not likely, unless she could get someone else to control the Weave. If Mystra got the chance to destroy Shar, on the other hand, I know for certain she would not. She has to maintain balance amongst the gods. Weaken or humiliate, yes, steal some portfolios, yes, but not permanent destruction.
Bill Druid Guy 05-03-04, 04:57 PM	Put Shar's intent is still to weaken Mystra.... I wont sit and argue which she wants, but could you be friends with a person trying to weaken your god? and subvery the proper Goddess of Magic. As a cleric of Mystra you are charged with spreading the Art and teaching people the proper use of it. Would you really be ok with a cleric who hides magic behind a cloak of secrecy and has no issues witht he fact that yoru diety, and most of her clerics kill people. Most clerics of Mystra are NG, just taking alignment into play, even if the Sharite isn't evil she accepts that evil is and should be done in Shar's name. Kinda like, yeah I don't kill people in their sleep, I just help them by giving money to the church which supports them.
Oberon 05-04-04, 09:03 PM	Good points So what your saying is that the Sharite could hide their faith and secretly try to subvert the Mystran.;) I could see good characters have a moral problem with a sharite but from the Sharites point of view, killing isn't one of shars portfolios. Shar's goal of increasing her godly power and the like isn’t really why people worship her. What if someone only worships her because they had lost their whole family in a horrible accident and didn't want to remember and feel that pain anymore? Why would they all of a sudden start hating Mystra and Selune? And want to kill people. The gods’ alignments and goals don’t draw followers; their portfolios draw followers, that’s where the power of the gods lie for mortals. I could see them trying to constantly covert each other, killing isn't the only answer you know. And like I said before the death on one priest isn't going to do that much harm to a god. I don’t see a follower of chauntea killing talosians for spreading blight; I do see them following them and trying do undo the damage that they did.
Chronomage 05-04-04, 09:11 PM	Just a brief point: The Shadow Weave is NOT weaker than the Weave of Mystra, it's just different. Sure, you take a hit on caster level for damage and duration regarding evocation but you get a +1 Dc and SR penetration for Enchantment, Illusion, and Necromancy, all very powerful schools. Heck, Illusion has a suite of shadow spells that mimic evocation so I'd even consider just dropping that school altogether. (Shadowcrafter from Underdark makes it even better). The point of the Shadow Weave might be a weaker echo, can't say as the only recent FR books I've read were the War of the Spider Queen books, but in game terms, it might be far stronger.
Chronomage 05-04-04, 09:35 PM	Check me if I'm wrong: Could a gnome illusionist take as his first level feat tattoo focus illusion, and later pick up spell focus: illusion, greater spell focus, and shadow weave magic? That would be a +5 DC bonus on all illusion spells (+1 gnome, +1 tattoo focus, +1 spell focus +1 greater spell focus, +1 shadow weave)! Course, now that I think about it, Tattoo focus might be limited to Mulan Humans. Damn them. Oh well, +4 then. Gnome Wizard, starting intelligence 16 in 25 pt buy, 18 in 32 (let's assume 32) +5 discretionary points, assume +7 bonus from inherent and enchantment (unknown mixture) giving us a 30. SO I cast Weird for a DC of (base 10+9 (spell level) +10 (Ability modifier) +4 (all that other stuff) 33. Gee, it's too bad they punked out spell power. Remember in the good old days of 3rd ed when the DC would be something like 42? Oh and than add another 2 from the former Spell Focus, Greater Spell focus feats.
Falstaff the Fighter 05-04-04, 09:47 PM	Sure the two dieties would never get along, but how closely must a cleric mirror their gods. Considering that clerics are supposed to be walking, living exmaples of their gods and servants of their every whim? I would say pretty darn close. The cleric who refuses to mirror his god is going to find himself spellless quite quickly, and Shar WILL know what he or she is doing. Two opposing gods DO NOT look kindly on their followers getting along. They will know about this and will likely see it as treasonous behavior (Aiding and abiding the enemy.). How much can you hate some one for having a the opposite faith than you? Um, juding by history, a whole lot.
Chronomage 05-04-04, 10:00 PM	Aiding and Abiding makes sense (grammer player) but I'm pretty sure the standard is Aiding and Abetting (bored now)
Bill Druid Guy 05-04-04, 10:18 PM	I think the big thing is , are the two people invovled clerics, in which case it wont happen, or are they just followers, and then how devout.
Arravis 05-05-04, 09:24 AM	To throw in my 2 cents... In my time I've met many priests, nuns, ministers, etc... they each have their own interpertation of the ethos they follow, they are their own personalities and act quite different from the others. All are followers of the same religion, but one of them act like their "god". Simply, mortals don't know what the gods act like. The actions of a god would be, for the most part, unknowable. Their intelligence tends to be so high, and their plans so far reaching as to make their motivations nearly impossible to figure out. What you would end up is behavior that would seem incomprehensible to their followers, or in fact anyone else. A faithful cleric will attempt to follow the ethics and dogma they are taught, but each individual will have their own interpertation on those things. They aren't automatons that all act the same way. They are each highly complex, emotional beings, with their own personalities, goals, etc. Don't cheat them of their very "humanity" by reducing them to mindless/personalityless followers.
Autosponge 05-05-04, 02:22 PM	In the Realms at least, faith is way more important than alignment or race. Shar and Mystra are at such odds that Shar would either drive the PC insane or take away all of their spells if they didn't attack the mystra PC or spread lies about him or something else wicked when ever he had the chance. This would force way too much on the PCs and a campaign would get derailed quickly.
Falstaff the Fighter 05-05-04, 02:26 PM	Saying that mortals can have their own interpretation of their deity's ethos works fine for a world where the deities are very distant. However, in a world where Thor could just pop up and say "Hey Bill, you know that fraternizing your doing with the clerics of Loki? Not a good thing pal." or where clerics can directly be penalized by power denial, then the normal logic of this does not apply.
Arravis 05-05-04, 03:25 PM	Yes, but Thor doesn't do that either. None of the gods in the realms take that active of a personal role. At best, it's like being in the military and taking orders from a general. And we know, that every soldier isn't exactly like every other soldier. You can't throw away individuality, personality and relative interpertation. There is diversity in all things, it's human nature for everyone to do things their own way. I think you're simply cheapening it by turning clerics into 2-dimensional automatons.
Falstaff the Fighter 05-05-04, 09:17 PM	There is no personal interpretation, there is either the will of the deity or not the will of the deity, and they will always know what their clerics are doing and will always either choose to allow, disallow, or remain neutral in the affair. You yourself said it, clerics are like soldiers in a war, and what happens when a soldier gets buddy buddy with an enemy troop? Courtmarshal time, that's what. Being a cleric means giving up your own personal desires and ends in lieu of your deity's. If you don't measure up, you get the boot. You are allowing too much political correctness to enter the picture. I don't want to use a real world comparison because its against the rules, but it is not hard to imagine one using the war-like comparison you mentioned.
Oberon 05-05-04, 09:20 PM	I'm with Arravis on this. Considering that clerics are supposed to be walking, living exmaples of their gods and servants of their every whim? I would say pretty darn close. The cleric who refuses to mirror his god is going to find himself spellless quite quickly, and Shar WILL know what he or she is doing. Two opposing gods DO NOT look kindly on their followers getting along. They will know about this and will likely see it as treasonous behavior (Aiding and abiding the enemy.). I don't agree with most of this statement at all. And a Cleric need only follow a god’s portfolio (for the third time) that’s how you get evil clerics of mystra. And I didn't say they had to get along, do you think the thief and the paladin get along, not usually. They don't have to get along, they don't have to like each other, they just have to work together (sorta) without killing each other.
Taelohn 05-05-04, 09:38 PM	The point of the Shadow Weave might be a weaker echo, can't say as the only recent FR books I've read were the War of the Spider Queen books, but in game terms, it might be far stronger. Right. The Shadow Weave is supposed to be an "echo" or "shadow" of the Weave (hence the name), and it's not supposed to contain as much power as the Weave... wherefore Shar gives out her powers more carefully. Shar is capable of granting the equivalent of spellfire or even silver fire, but unlike Mystra, she gives it only to a select few - only to those she most favours, and she can and will take it away if they displease her. But yes, for a spellcaster drawing upon it, it's just as good. Shar and Mystra are at such odds that Shar would either drive the PC insane or take away all of their spells if they didn't attack the mystra PC or spread lies about him or something else wicked when ever he had the chance. I'd say the Sharran cleric could appear to aid his enemies, even for some time, but if only to seduce or corrupt them from their beliefs, or gather important information, or lure them into a trap of some sort... the ends should justify the means for her.
Autosponge 05-05-04, 09:53 PM	Right, which is where you bring in that one PC is designed to undermine another which is a recipe for campaign disaster.
Arravis 05-06-04, 09:26 AM	Not always... let the both player's know before hand, and let them figure out how they want to RP that particular storyline over time. When doing that, I've gotten great results in the past. The problem tends to be one player isn't aware of what's going on, and feels personally manipulated.
Falstaff the Fighter 05-06-04, 12:49 PM	Are you honestly trying to argue that a cleric is not a representitive of his deity? The Mystra example is a flawed one because she is among the handful of gods who are exceptions to the general rules, and even then she only has to give evil people power who genuinely worship her. Nowhere does it say she has to give them power if they are actually trying to or at risk for undermining her. No deity that is sane would do that. A cleric of mystra being evil is one thing, but fraternizing with her known enemies is another. And a theif and a paladin will not, at least if the rules are followed, get along for very long. If theif engages in evil and unlawful acts and refuses to chane his ways, the paladin will either be forced to leave or not be a paladin anymore.
Arravis 05-06-04, 01:37 PM	My only claim is that human clerics are just that... human. Look at humans, they're all around you. Everyone does their own thing, especially when they're not supposed to. Find me a group of people that all do the same thing, based on the same teachings/leadership, etc. It's not an issue about political correctness, I'm not saying this is good or bad, just the way it is. My only claim is the reliance of humanity's complete unpredictability and general randomness. You're welcome to simplifly things, but you're doing just that, simplifying it.
Oberon 05-06-04, 08:36 PM	Are you honestly trying to argue that a cleric is not a representative of his deity? Well, yes. I'm arguing that a cleric is a representative of the OFFICE that the Deity holds, i.e. their Portfolio’s, and is not required (though many do) to represent (Mimic) the individual personalities of the Deities. You may not like the sheriff but you still have to follow the law. In the military you have to, respect and follow the Ranks higher than me, but you don't have to mirror the people who hold them. These aren’t great examples but I think that they kind of imply the same principals, of separating personality and job. A cleric of mystra being evil is one thing, but fraternizing with her known enemies is another. Shar is her enemy not necessarily every one who follows her. If there is an evil cult leader who deceives everyone, like say that Beholder cult from the video game Shadows of Amn. Would you kill all of his followers, including the ones who didn’t attack you? To follow Shar Portfolio is not an offense to Mystra, unless the secretes your keeping are magical in nature, but even then the penalty for keeping magical secrets in not Death. Mages the world over do it all the time. And a theif and a paladin will not, at least if the rules are followed, get along for very long. If theif engages in evil and unlawful acts and refuses to chane his ways, the paladin will either be forced to leave or not be a paladin anymore. It’s a sad day in role-playing when you can’t have a thief and a paladin, two iconic character classes in the same group. Sure they won’t get along but “…not be a paladin anymore.” That’s like saying you can’t have a chaotic and a lawful character in the same group.
Chronomage 05-06-04, 09:00 PM	Oberon, I'm sorry, you're just wrong. Clerics have a holy commitment to their deity. Sure, they may disagree with the deity on certain points, but once they start getting friendly with an opposing cleric of a vastly polar opposite type god, they lose all clerical powers. In fact, they might lose the ability to ever become a cleric of any related god, ever again. To show such disloyalty, is completely against the trend of Faerun. They'd have to do one HELL of an atonement for that. The only god that would probably take them in (laughing all the while) would be the very god whose cleric they cozied up with. This all assuming that the cleric wasn't doing their best to convert the cleric of shar, and making sure no evil acts were commited on their watch. And paladins CAN get along with rogues, but the rogues might feel the paladin was a pain in the a$$. There's a reason all rogues are not thieves. Hell, tolkien said it best: "Expert treasure hunter". Darn tootin.
Bill Druid Guy 05-06-04, 10:56 PM	OK just got the new Players Guide to Fearun... read the section about "Diefic Grudges" There are followers of Mystra charge with doing nothing but killing Sharites on sight, and vice versa. I doubt if a Diety is charge one follower with killing people just cause of their god, then they are not likely to allow other clerics to befriends with them. Work with them in a rare extreme situation, yes but it shoudl be EXTREMELY rare and only a very short duration.
Oberon 05-09-04, 09:10 PM	This all assuming that the cleric wasn't doing their best to convert the cleric of shar, and making sure no evil acts were committed on their watch. Exactly. :D OK just got the new Players Guide to Fearun... read the section about "Diefic Grudges" There are followers of Mystra charge with doing nothing but killing Sharites on sight, and vice versa. Well that pretty much destroys my argument for this example. Bloodthirsty them gods.
Chronomage 05-10-04, 04:57 AM	Certainly Selune and Shar are. Still extraordinary circumstances might facilitate a very brief partnership, or at least one side using the other without the other side knowing of the contact.
Gotrex 05-10-04, 06:34 AM	Arravis what you are claiming can happen is equivilent to a christian and a satanist being friends with each other and having tea and biscuits ie it just aint going to happen your right that in most instances there is alot of room for interpretation in the realms but in some situations such as this the deities will is so clear cut that any cleric with half a brain knows that they are to kill followers of mystra
Arravis 05-10-04, 10:18 AM	I never claimed they would have tea and biscuits together or become friends. Simply that, under the proper circumstances, they could be in the same adventuring group together. Life can be pretty odd... what happens and the circumstances around people can lead to all kinds of unusual situations (watch The Believer sometime, it's based on the true story of a jewish guy that joins the neo-nazis). In real life, there are quite a number of stories of odd and unusual parings of people that would normally never be together. It would be a disservice to humanity to claim such iniformity in views, opinions, and circumstance. Any relationship, no matter how unusual or improbably, might happen. There are too many documented real-life cases of such things for it to simply be dismissed. If you want to take a simplified view of things, do so, just be aware that you are doing just that. P.S.: I have known a christian and a satanist that were friends.
Eccerion 05-12-04, 04:07 PM	Something I notice missing in this discussion is the fact that worshipers of the gods are not bound to follow their patrons portfolio, but their dogma, which although closely tied to eachother, are not quite the same thing. The dogma of the gods come directly from the gods themselves, and are subject to little interpretation, since if a cleric is uncertain about a part he can actually ask his diety about it and actually get a response, if not from the diety itself then from one of her outerworldy followers. A cleric preaching the word of his god incorrectly might find a celestial appearing and setting him strait, just looks at Lolths clergy, if Lloth is really ticked she sends a yochlol or tanari to tear someones head off as a warning not to do it again. Shars dogma says clearly that her worshipers are to oppose Selune and her followers every chance they get, as such thats what they do, period, not doing such is inviting alot of greif to your life in the near future. Now that being said, there is little that says a follower of Mystra and Shar cant be in the same group, but if they both know about the others affiliation, there will be trouble since those two faiths are opposed to eachother if not in open conflict. Lots of gods have some (or in cyrics case all:D) gods who cant stand them because their views are so radically different or because they each represent a different side of the same coin, like Tymora/Beshaba, Tempus/Eldath and Sune/Talona. This does not usally mean a follower of one god has to leap at the follower of an opposed god with a knife on sight, but in some cases it does, like in the case of Shar and Selune or Cyric and Bane, where the various churches are in a state of holy war against eachother. In RL a person could ignore the dictates of a holy war if they so choose, as long as no one on their own side knows about it, like spearing the life of an enemy, but on Toril if your god has decleared a holy war and you are part of it you better belive you will do as your told or the gods servants, if not the diety itself, will be comming for you. And it need not be in the form of a lighning bolt from a clear sky or a flammign sword bearing angel appearing either, a simple dream messege to the local church inquisitor should suffice :smirk: :angel: