Post/Author/DateTime	Post
White_Wizard 10-05-07, 07:58 AM	I have already posted an open letter to WotC staff here in this very forum. The reasons for which i'm posting it again are mainly two: the first is that this new letter is slightly different from the original (mostly grammatical corrections and some other adjustments), the second reason is that I'll send it to WotC within 10/12 days. As it has been suggested to me in the previous thread, it would be nice that everyone which agrees with the feelings expressed in the letter signed it, so I'll post here the new text of the letter: everyone wishing their forum nickname to be put as sign in the letter can PM me his intention to be added. As I said I'll send the letter within a maximum of 12 days: everyone who wishes to sign it will have to PM me before that time. Only the forum nickname will be put, no real names nor any other personal stuff. Thanks to all. Here's the letter: Dear WotC staff, I won't be buying any more FR novels and, if things are going to stay this way, I'll never buy any other D&D products: I never meant to go this far, but this has to come to an end, once and for all, in one way or in the other. You didn’t leave me (or other fans who think like me) any other chance: so drastic are changes you are forcing onto the whole D&D, but more than ever onto the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting (and about the latter you should have asked the whole community before doing anything: you have the advantage of being able to have a taste of the market’s response through the D&D Communities on the net and you don’t even bother to use; take time to look at how many forum threads on the various fan sites are expressing a deep disappointed with announced 4E Realms and then you’ll have an idea of the degree of success –or lack of- which 4E Realms are going to face). You are ruining everything, in a false hope of gaining more fans from other sources (read: MMORPG). Well, I may play the angry fan’s part and say that you are going to fail and serves you well, but I won't: I love D&D too much, and I love the Forgotten Realms even more. Don't ruin them. Please. I can understand that the sheer numbers of MMORPG players is enough to cause a marketing expert’s head spinning with awesome expectations: they are millions. Maybe RPG players are millions too, but less millions. But any marketing expert should also consider that there are reasons for such numbers. Psychological studies have spotted the average RPG player's profile, which is: 1) IQ generally higher than average 2) good to high instruction rating 3) creative and imaginative mind 4) tendency to have close circles of friends. The MMORPG player does not necessarily answer to these requirements, though: any RPG player may play a MMORPG easily, but the reverse is not true by any means. MMORPG players do not: 1) require superior intelligence (all you have to do is memorizing attack combos, left click, and which button to push), 2) instruction rating isn’t relevant, because no mental effort is involved (while it is vital in traditional RPG), 3) MMORPG players do not need creative or imaginative mind (on the contrary MMORPG, as any video-game, tend to ruin creativity: visual aspects are provided by the graphics, the story is provided by programmers, character options are limited by program allowance: you'll never be able to use a spell in a way different from the originally intended way, nor will you be allowed to use the surrounding environment with the same, unlimited, creativity typical of any real RPG: there is no DM to judge any out-of-the-rule action, just a chip with pre-programmed orders). 4) MMORPG does not require any social skill, on the contrary it enhances tendencies toward loneliness, while RPG requires social skills (because other people are involved, while in a MMORPG solo games are frequent). Such characteristics are not freely interchangeable. RPG requires social skills, imaginative and creative mind, patience: this is the reason because MMORPG players are not likely to shift in mass to traditional RPG. They don’t need to: their tastes point toward another direction. And all of this is not a matter of rules: you can lower the complexity of the rules as much as you wish, you can make the game as fast as you can, but any MMORPG will stay faster, easier and graphically more appalling. Traditional RPG has nothing that can really appeal the average MMORPG player (not to speak about hard core ones!). What will happen will be that D&D will loose a great part of it's traditional, accustomed fans, while just a very small part of MMORPG players will shift to D&D, but once they'll see that it cannot offer the same graphic appealing and ease/speed of use of a MMORPG they'll go back to MMORPG. This path will lead you of WotC to find out that few new players will be added to the hobby and that many more will have departed. You say you won't think back to this whole 4E and more importantly that you won't think back of the Forgotten Realms changes. Well, you'd better re-think such statements, because if you stick to it you'll loose a great part your fans in a few months. I'm a relatively short term player, since I started buy D&D products in 2001 (it should be noted that, by now, I own 55 handbooks both from the 3.0 and 3.5 edition, so I gave my deal of bucks to the hobby), so my opinion could be considered of secondary relevance. But when long term players, such as people who collect D&D material since the 80's (or even the 70's), say on the boards that they'll leave the game because of the 4E changes (when they have been through at least three edition shifts under TSR, one major change when 3.0 came out and the 3.5 change), such a thing should give to think: "What have we done to convince such enduring customers to leave the game?" This is the question you WotC staff should ask yourselves and think very much and carefully about the answer, because you products' future is at stake. Not only: Ed Greenwood himself, though not openly, seems disappointed and said he stays in just to keep the changes under control (and this is verifiable on the boards, where his words are reported). When one says “I’ve decided to stay because...” it means that though he is staying, he has thought about leaving (and we are speaking about the creator of the Realms). This is very serious matter. Very, very, very serious indeed. What kind of trust can put we fans and customers into the new Realms if even the creator of the setting seems so much disappointed with it? I hope you of WotC see the error before it becomes undoable: you are still in time. D&D can have a 4th edition and it should be the chance for correcting 3.x flaws. And also changes could be made to Forgotten Realms, which are not static, but such changes should be: a) minor ones or just potentially major (such as it was the return of Bane with the 3.0 FRCS or the return of the floating city of Shade; Players should be free to play campaigns with cataclysmic events, not forced to), and b) original ones (please, dead Mystra: how many times did this already happen? It’s getting ridiculous). There is still a whole lot of things to be said about Forgotten Realms (and if you had done detail-deep handbooks, rather than just 120-130 pages of PrC/New Feats containers you'd have still more) without thinking about drastic changes. What you did wrong with 3.x was just saying "This is the Underdark, there is this city, and this city, and this city, and this city; you can gain this PrC, this PrC and this PrC; you can buy this feat and this feat and this feat". What happened with the detailed info about races, customs, trade, monsters (and I mean much more monsters with detailed info, not just the bunch of game stats that is given in most of 3.x FR accessories). There was nothing of the old AD&D addition in flavor, details, maps, location descriptions, optional rules and, overall, deepness of information. These are the kind of things you should aim to put in 4E Realms if you really want both to keep old fans and to gain new ones: the Realms are appealing as they are. It’d require just a little more effort to give them an additional push, so that new fans join old ones, without trying to challenge MMORPG on their own territory (a challenge that, if taken, RPG cannot win, not against MMORPG’s conditions). And there is nothing wrong with current Forgotten Realms deities: there’s no need to kill them in mass. What’s wrong it’s maybe that players are forced to choose one, but it’s a minor flaw (and easily correctable). I refuse to think that you don't see the huge, unnecessary risk of this whole thing: 4E already requires that entirely new campaigns are started. And we (at least I) could endure it, if the game stayed funny enough. But this is not enough for you, apparently: the entire Forgotten Realms Setting is going to be so drastically changed that anything (anything) the players did in the past games will be worthless, ignored and destroyed. And if this may seem an element of secondary relevance (after all we are speaking about fictional games, not about reality), it should also be noted that the success of the game is founded upon the fun that players get from it. We are speaking of ruining years of games: it is not the kind of things that players take with just a shrug. There are thousands and possibly hundreds of thousands players that will stick to 3.x material rather than spend money and time in a completely different game system that does not allow (or at least greatly discourages) character conversion (as you say) and, worse still, a completely changed Campaign Setting, in which they’d be forced whether they want or not. This is not the way of gaining new customers, this is the way to loose them. There is still time to step back: nearly one year of time. It is not much speaking in terms of publications, but it can be enough if you put some serious hard work in it (after all it is your job). RAS has already written at least one novel about these changes, I know, but that's no unsolvable problem: just make it non-canon. Sales won't be good, but at least you'll not be going to loose fans permanently (and after all even characters from the soap opera "Dallas" made bad dreams about dead relatives). They say to me that’s just the prologue of the novel, so it won’t be hard to make it non-canon or a sort of impending menace that novel characters will have to prevent (and, why not, it is a menace players could have fun to avert: just give them the chance to instead of putting them in the condition of not being able to do otherwise than playing in the new setting or don’t play at all). You of WotC may ask what kind of right I have to say such things. And you’d be right in asking so. I could say that I have the right of the paying customer, but I won't. I'll rather say that I have the right of the fan (and a loyal one's). The right of the gamer who spent so many hours of his life playing D&D, enjoying the FRCS and plotting devious schemes as DM for the fun of other players. I think it's a good deal of things that give me the right of telling you that, though you may think you're doing the right thing with FRCS, you are not. Don’t say to me: “Trust us, you are going to enjoy the new Realms” because I won’t and you cannot tell me the contrary. You have a hint of players’ reactions on the net: you’ll see that there are very few happy with announced changed and that a much larger part of Forgotten Realms fans are unhappy, disappointed and even, in not a few cases, willing to leave the game if such changes will take place. Please, don't ruin D&D and don't, for God's sake, ruin the Realms as you are doing. Think it better. D&D is still a game so full of potential and so are the Realms as a Setting: there is no need of major changes. Thank you White _Wizard
Mrakvampire 10-05-07, 08:44 AM	Sign me in. Vorobyev Anton, Moscow, Russia Playing D&D since 1999.
White_Wizard 10-05-07, 05:19 PM	I'd wish to thank all who gave their support (mainly via PM, but here as well) and I hope to see more: the more we are the better. Let me say that I believe it has a chance of being taken in consideration: with this letter we can offer a hint on how the fans react to changes. So, gather together and make them hear your voices as well!
Gray Richardson 10-05-07, 10:06 PM	I cannot support such a statement! First of all, the letter is poorly written. As rhetoric, it is not effective. It doesn't adequately state your cause or why you are upset. You do not give enough reasons. You just repeat endlessly how upset you are and then you cast aspersions upon WotC, question their motives and declare how sorry they are going to be when they lose you and everyone else as a customer. Frankly, it has the petulant and rambling quality of a child's temper-tantrum. An effective letter should be short, to the point, and list the specific grievances you have, and the specific remedies you would like to see them undertake. However, in your letter you just say they are ruining everything and the examples you give are really vague and muddled. I really cannot tell at all what you are upset about, or what WotC could ever do to make you happy. Secondly, if you vow never to purchase another WotC product, you are no longer a customer, and WotC has no incentive to try and please you. Such unilateral and extreme statements close off debate. That's not starting a conversation, that has the effect of ending one. Your letter would be more effective if you sought to open up a dialog with WotC. Thirdly, I love the Realms. I would never refuse to forsake the Realms. WotC has an excellent track record of producing high quality, entertaining, and deeply satisfying products. And you propose to boycott the Realms forever based on a book that hasn't been written yet? Sight unseen? Based on what, a rumor? I have faith that WotC will put out an awesome 4th edition with lots of great Realms products. And if they let me down (which I don't expect) I'll give it a chance, hope it will improve, maybe offer some constructive criticism, and encourage them to bring it back on track. Perhaps once I have read the 4th edition FRCS, if it turns out that I maybe have specific criticisms, I will write them down in a cogent letter, explain specifically to the good folks how they can fix things and encourage them to win back my trust. Of course, that is totally hypothetical. I have every expectation that the new FRCS will knock my socks off. For now WotC has my total trust. They have earned it. ;)
Puritan13 10-05-07, 11:11 PM	Why don't you just wait until it comes out before you judge it? Honestly, there are bookstores where you can sit down and read the entire book before you buy it.
johnkretzer 10-06-07, 12:11 AM	First of all, the letter is poorly written. As rhetoric, it is not effective. It doesn't adequately state your cause or why you are upset. You do not give enough reasons. You just repeat endlessly how upset you are and then you cast aspersions upon WotC, question their motives and declare how sorry they are going to be when they lose you and everyone else as a customer. I agre you should go into greater depth into the the changes and why they are bad. If anybody has a suggestions I think we should add them...or if White_Wizard is inclined to he can definitly just poke around the various thread and find legitment reasons why the changes are bad. But I think we should make that effort. Though I think this is a great idea but two things that make it better... 1)I think we should use our real names not WotC board nickname. 2) We should also take this petion to other forums and our local gaming groups to increase the number of fans...I.E actualy make it petion. For now WotC has my total trust. They have earned it. ;) Really to me over the years they have squander it...sure they gained alot for 3rd edtion and in my eyes didn't lose any for 3.5...but things they have done that has made me mistrust them... 1) Before the Realms had powerful NPCs. Now get ready for the GDPC( Game Designer Player Characters) and the FRNPC( Forgotten Realms Novelist Player Characters) These will be the worst then what we have had before especialy since it appears that a god(Cyric) is one of them. You'll be hugging the DMPC within a year of the 2) Character and gods acting inconsistent with their action before. 3) The game becoming about the novels instead of the players creativity. 4) The changes to the lore that they slipped in. Example after the orcs invaded the elves started to hunt them for sport(Race of Faerun). Um yeah ok a race of good being will do to another sentinent species...sigh. I could go on but I doubt you have interest.
Dimensional_Drifter 10-06-07, 01:23 AM	White_Wizard, you should consider what Gray says. Besides we don't know what 4th edition will truly be like, it's not finished really, nor are the books out yet. I think many are overeacting. Besides, as Gray said: WotC really has no incentive to please you if you decide to never again buy their products. Just be a little more reasonable. Be a little more patient, and relax a bit. The end result may be better than you think, and if you and everyone else keep telling yourselves that 4th edition will ruin the realms and be terrible-- You will come to see it that way when 4th edition actualy is here. If you all don't like what has happened afterwards, then you'll be able to back up your arguments a little better. Just calm down a bit.
johnkretzer 10-06-07, 01:29 AM	White_Wizard, you should consider what Gray says. Besides we don't know what 4th edition will truly be like, it's not finished really, nor are the books out yet. I think many are overeacting. Besides, as Gray said: WotC really has no incentive to please you if you decide to never again buy their products. Just be a little more reasonable. Be a little more patient, and relax a bit. The end result may be better than you think, and if you and everyone else keep telling yourselves that 4th edition will ruin the realms and be terrible-- You will come to see it that way when 4th edition actualy is here. If you all don't like what has happened afterwards, then you'll be able to back up your arguments a little better. Just calm down a bit. um..sorry but no one has backed up any arguements that these changes are necessary yewt either. Also this purely on what they have revealed...not what is coming but what is already here.
Dark Wizard 10-06-07, 02:41 AM	As much as I want a more moderate approach to the new changes taken, I cannot agree with some points of this letter. - I've expressed my desire (whether or not depends on the product come next year) to continue supporting WotC's D&D work into 4e and into the 4e Realms. You start the letter off by removing yourself from their customer base in a not so polite manner. - The MMORPG comparison is better left unsaid. Of all things WotC probably researched through these 7-8 years it's MMOs. They've no doubt thoroughly examined the possibilities, including all of the internet possibilities: blogs (MySpace + D&D = Gleemax), chat based gaming, email gaming perhaps, online game boards, game finding services, a new web content distribution and publishing model. This is one of the main points of 4E, it's the first real step of D&D onto the web on a permanent basis. They've got this angle covered. This is one aspect of 4E I believe they did the very best they can because any less could mean a colossal failure in bringing the game into the modern internet (not just MMO) era. - I try not to read too much into Ed's statements unless he explicitly stated something. - Let's try not to put down the designers too much, they're people too. They've done some decent work at the least, else the Realms wouldn't be here at all, so they deserve a little credit. It's also harder for a person to be receptive to a letter that puts them down. - They really can't take back what they've already released like the latest 10 years in the timeline. They have a bit of wiggle room, but this is going down no matter what. It's too late to take it back and rightly so they committed to this. To take it back would reveal incompetence (which will never happen) and it will be even more detrimental to the Realms because then it will be very idiotic, demented, manic, inconsistent. Personally I hope that they left themselves some room to meet more fans somewhere in the middle with the rest of the new stuff.
Reneshat 10-06-07, 03:42 AM	*insert various things I cut out for pointless quote reduction* 4) The changes to the lore that they slipped in. Example after the orcs invaded the elves started to hunt them for sport(Race of Faerun). Um yeah ok a race of good being will do to another sentinent species...sigh. Most certainly if you do decide to do this you will need to use your real names. You will not be taken seriously if you use nicknames, and it will continue to perpetrate the feeling of a child throwing a temper-tantrum. John has brought up many times very valid and specific complaints (he has even managed to change my mind on a few issues) that could be worked around unlike some of the other changes they have done. They are not going to be able to get around the death of Mystra, however they could go into more depth and give some explanation for the deicide of Helm beyond mere jealousy, for example. Specific examples, especially considering what they can and cannot change at this point, leave openings to salvage what you can of the setting. As far as good creatures hunting other sentient beings for sport, that depends on your definition of sentient. With some of the vitriol certain posters have shown regarding orcs on these boards, some might disagree on your distinction.
johnkretzer 10-06-07, 04:16 AM	Most certainly if you do decide to do this you will need to use your real names. You will not be taken seriously if you use nicknames, and it will continue to perpetrate the feeling of a child throwing a temper-tantrum.. And thinking about and reading it I think we as a community should decide how to word things. While I won't dismiss it as childish...it is emotional which is to be expected. But still won't get any changes done. And to the OP I am not trying to dismiss your effort it was great of you do take this first step...but I think we can imptove it a bit. John has brought up many times very valid and specific complaints (he has even managed to change my mind on a few issues) that could be worked around unlike some of the other changes they have done. They are not going to be able to get around the death of Mystra, however they could go into more depth and give some explanation for the deicide of Helm beyond mere jealousy, for example. Specific examples, especially considering what they can and cannot change at this point, leave openings to salvage what you can of the setting. Again I have come to realize that we are not going to to able to convince them that the changes aren't needed, but we might get them to compromise on the way they do these changes so that everybody can be happy. I plan to post a thread on how I would have done the changes to get the results they want in a few days. As far as good creatures hunting other sentient beings for sport, that depends on your definition of sentient. With some of the vitriol certain posters have shown regarding orcs on these boards, some might disagree on your distinction. :) I or anybody else who have attacked the orc kingdom have never tried to say orcs aren't sentient but they are evil being. Either they genetical predisposed to be evil(if you are the nature side of the debate) or they are raised by their culture that is evil(if you like the nuiture side of the debate) or that they are currupt due to there gods(for the religous side). Personaly I think it is a combination of all three that are the factor. Also I don't like the way to elvate a race is by tearing down another. That section could have been better descibed as," The elves after the invasion sent scout and skirmishers into orc territory to keep an eye on a known enemy and to keep them off balanced." That is more realistic to me atleast in what the elves would have done. Also it was the people who were for the changes that would characterize the old orcs as non-sentient.
Reneshat 10-06-07, 04:58 AM	:) I or anybody else who have attacked the orc kingdom have never tried to say orcs aren't sentient but they are evil being. Either they genetical predisposed to be evil(if you are the nature side of the debate) or they are raised by their culture that is evil(if you like the nuiture side of the debate) or that they are currupt due to there gods(for the religous side). Personaly I think it is a combination of all three that are the factor. Also I don't like the way to elvate a race is by tearing down another. That section could have been better descibed as," The elves after the invasion sent scout and skirmishers into orc territory to keep an eye on a known enemy and to keep them off balanced." That is more realistic to me atleast in what the elves would have done. Also it was the people who were for the changes that would characterize the old orcs as non-sentient. I don't know. I kind of like the idea of orc hunting... "Wow Blackleaf, are those new boots?" "Sure are Elfstar, orc skin boots to be exact?" "Wow, how did you afford those?" "Well it's easier if you kill the orc yourself. Wasn't easy those, those buggers sure can run." "I know what you mean. Nothing is quite as challenging as a good orc hunt. Too bad they are such bad eating." "You know Elfstar, the trick is to soak the orc overnight is dark wine. Something high tannin, like a cabernet. It really softens the meat and compliments the flavor." "Good to know Blackleaf, I'll make sure to try that next time." Gee, doesn't that sound like elves to you? :D I didn't mean to truly suggest that even the most vocal opponents to the orcish kingdom truly thought they weren't sentient. I was just trying to lighten the discussion a little.
White_Wizard 10-06-07, 08:55 AM	First of all: thank you all for suggestions and comments, which are most appreciated. I cannot support such a statement! First of all, the letter is poorly written. As rhetoric, it is not effective. It doesn't adequately state your cause or why you are upset. You do not give enough reasons. You just repeat endlessly how upset you are and then you cast aspersions upon WotC, question their motives and declare how sorry they are going to be when they lose you and everyone else as a customer. Frankly, it has the petulant and rambling quality of a child's temper-tantrum. An effective letter should be short, to the point, and list the specific grievances you have, and the specific remedies you would like to see them undertake. However, in your letter you just say they are ruining everything and the examples you give are really vague and muddled. I really cannot tell at all what you are upset about, or what WotC could ever do to make you happy. Secondly, if you vow never to purchase another WotC product, you are no longer a customer, and WotC has no incentive to try and please you. Such unilateral and extreme statements close off debate. That's not starting a conversation, that has the effect of ending one. Your letter would be more effective if you sought to open up a dialog with WotC. Thirdly, I love the Realms. I would never refuse to forsake the Realms. WotC has an excellent track record of producing high quality, entertaining, and deeply satisfying products. And you propose to boycott the Realms forever based on a book that hasn't been written yet? Sight unseen? Based on what, a rumor? I have faith that WotC will put out an awesome 4th edition with lots of great Realms products. And if they let me down (which I don't expect) I'll give it a chance, hope it will improve, maybe offer some constructive criticism, and encourage them to bring it back on track. Perhaps once I have read the 4th edition FRCS, if it turns out that I maybe have specific criticisms, I will write them down in a cogent letter, explain specifically to the good folks how they can fix things and encourage them to win back my trust. Of course, that is totally hypothetical. I have every expectation that the new FRCS will knock my socks off. For now WotC has my total trust. They have earned it. ;) Thanks very much. I wasn't aware that my letter was so bad (no sarchasm) and that's because English is not my primary language, so any corections are well accepted (and even sought for). I'll try to re-write it being more schematic and trying to give more reasons. When the new letter will be finished I'll post it here, so you will be able to comment it (if you are willing to) because I fear I have the verbal capability of a 7-8 years old child :( . Again, Thanks. I agre you should go into greater depth into the the changes and why they are bad. If anybody has a suggestions I think we should add them...or if White_Wizard is inclined to he can definitly just poke around the various thread and find legitment reasons why the changes are bad. But I think we should make that effort. Though I think this is a great idea but two things that make it better... I'll comment every single entry from here on. Thank you very much for your contribution (really). 1)I think we should use our real names not WotC board nickname. Ok, I wasn't sure if people would have been happy if I asked to give their real names: I think that privacy is a very serious matter. However, if one wishes to sign with his/her real name, it will be well accepted, but I won't ask anyone to do it. 2) We should also take this petion to other forums and our local gaming groups to increase the number of fans...I.E actualy make it petion. Every such initiative is most appreciated: if you want to spread the word it'll be very much appreciated. Thanks. Really to me over the years they have squander it...sure they gained alot for 3rd edtion and in my eyes didn't lose any for 3.5...but things they have done that has made me mistrust them... 1) Before the Realms had powerful NPCs. Now get ready for the GDPC( Game Designer Player Characters) and the FRNPC( Forgotten Realms Novelist Player Characters) These will be the worst then what we have had before especialy since it appears that a god(Cyric) is one of them. You'll be hugging the DMPC within a year of the 2) Character and gods acting inconsistent with their action before. 3) The game becoming about the novels instead of the players creativity. 4) The changes to the lore that they slipped in. Example after the orcs invaded the elves started to hunt them for sport(Race of Faerun). Um yeah ok a race of good being will do to another sentinent species...sigh. I could go on but I doubt you have interest. Thank you for your contribution: it'll help me to put the letter in perspective. If any other wishes to express concerns in a similar way, I'll be glad of such help. As much as I want a more moderate approach to the new changes taken, I cannot agree with some points of this letter. - I've expressed my desire (whether or not depends on the product come next year) to continue supporting WotC's D&D work into 4e and into the 4e Realms. You start the letter off by removing yourself from their customer base in a not so polite manner. Thanks. My intentions were to state that I'm not calling off without conditions, but only if complaints expressed on the letter weren't going to be listened. And that is not for making a tantrum or other: it's only that I wouldn't see any reason to buy 4E products if I stick to 3E ones: I have already everything I need to play and I won't buy any more products if announced changes take place because I simply won't be interested in the new Realms. And I had no idea of being rude. I'll try to soften that statement. Again, English is not my primary language and, though I understand it pretty well, I may not be so good at writing. - The MMORPG comparison is better left unsaid. Of all things WotC probably researched through these 7-8 years it's MMOs. They've no doubt thoroughly examined the possibilities, including all of the internet possibilities: blogs (MySpace + D&D = Gleemax), chat based gaming, email gaming perhaps, online game boards, game finding services, a new web content distribution and publishing model. This is one of the main points of 4E, it's the first real step of D&D onto the web on a permanent basis. They've got this angle covered. This is one aspect of 4E I believe they did the very best they can because any less could mean a colossal failure in bringing the game into the modern internet (not just MMO) era. I think you are right. Maybe I could reduce the part regarding to MMORPG (also it's of secondary importance: my main concern are the Realms and I think I'd buy 4E if the Realms' changes were cancelled). - I try not to read too much into Ed's statements unless he explicitly stated something. Yeah, right. I may just express my concerns toward what he really said, not what it is supposed to mean. - Let's try not to put down the designers too much, they're people too. They've done some decent work at the least, else the Realms wouldn't be here at all, so they deserve a little credit. It's also harder for a person to be receptive to a letter that puts them down. You are right here as well. Again I didn't mean to be that hard and i'm aware that they are people who have a job to do in order to earn a living (that's why I never mentioned "firing" or anything like that: it wouldn't be fair nor useful. I like much of what they did in 3.x works). - They really can't take back what they've already released like the latest 10 years in the timeline. They have a bit of wiggle room, but this is going down no matter what. It's too late to take it back and rightly so they committed to this. To take it back would reveal incompetence (which will never happen) and it will be even more detrimental to the Realms because then it will be very idiotic, demented, manic, inconsistent. Personally I hope that they left themselves some room to meet more fans somewhere in the middle with the rest of the new stuff. I hope so as well: it's only that such deep changes, so permanent and so drastic, with the statement they they won't go back on this decisions made me distrust them even if I have always been one of those who defended their work. For example: if they unleashed an event consistent with the setting (instead of launching deities in a wild killing spree) and maybe not so definitive (like the ToT was) I would probably have been interested, rather than afraid. But, judging by what they say, they are planning a total de-Realm-ization. Again, thanks all: I'm very glad to see that, whether in agreement or not, such matter is of no little concern and that you all take it very seriously.
Butterface 10-06-07, 11:05 AM	um..sorry but no one has backed up any arguements that these changes are necessary yewt either. Also this purely on what they have revealed...not what is coming but what is already here. John, did you miss Richard Baker's point by point explanation to you why they felt the changes were necessary? Over in the Ask the Realms thread. I'm sure you don't agree (and that's fine), but Rich is "backing up" his arguments for change.
johnkretzer 10-06-07, 03:20 PM	John, did you miss Richard Baker's point by point explanation to you why they felt the changes were necessary? Over in the Ask the Realms thread. I'm sure you don't agree (and that's fine), but Rich is "backing up" his arguments for change. No I didn't miss as I have responded to it. Though for the most part I disagree with them. And because he has responded I do have more respect for him. Though my respect would even grow if his attitude wasn't so stuck on the way things have to change to get his goals. Also I am not totaly against the changes as people seem to think. I just think their changes are more directed towards the extreme side of the debate when I think a more centralist veiw on the changes would be better both for the setting and in making them more money.
18DELTA 10-06-07, 03:41 PM	Where is AO in all this. In Cancun, filming another episode of "Gods Gone Wild"?;) Where is the OverGod AO? This letter is a pipe dream. Sorry I mean no Offence, But your wasting you time. But I respect the attempt none the less!:)
johnkretzer 10-06-07, 04:01 PM	I don't know. I kind of like the idea of orc hunting... "Wow Blackleaf, are those new boots?" "Sure are Elfstar, orc skin boots to be exact?" "Wow, how did you afford those?" "Well it's easier if you kill the orc yourself. Wasn't easy those, those buggers sure can run." "I know what you mean. Nothing is quite as challenging as a good orc hunt. Too bad they are such bad eating." "You know Elfstar, the trick is to soak the orc overnight is dark wine. Something high tannin, like a cabernet. It really softens the meat and compliments the flavor." "Good to know Blackleaf, I'll make sure to try that next time." Gee, doesn't that sound like elves to you? :D I didn't mean to truly suggest that even the most vocal opponents to the orcish kingdom truly thought they weren't sentient. I was just trying to lighten the discussion a little. That is especialy funny since in one of the games I play has a fey'ri orphane who wears orc skin boots...of course she isn't your average elf.
johnkretzer 10-06-07, 04:05 PM	Where is AO in all this. In Cancun, filming another episode of "Gods Gone Wild"?;) Where is the OverGod AO? This letter is a pipe dream. Sorry I mean no Offence, But your wasting you time. But I respect the attempt none the less!:) It is still worth the effort. Who knows maybe it will suceed. But we will never know if we don't make the effort.
18DELTA 10-06-07, 06:13 PM	It is still worth the effort. Who knows maybe it will suceed. But we will never know if we don't make the effort. Just call me "Oh Yea of Little Faith" right now. The WotC overlords have spoken. Its set in stone and the only thing we can do is wave bye-bye while the 4E FR sails off into the internet distance.:tiphat: Thats the only reason that the realms are changing, so people will want to play in the realms online. Will you play online? I probably wont play on line. So lets draw the reasonable conclusions. We are no longer wanted by WotC anymore. IMHO! 1,000,000 people paying $10.00 a month for 12 months. That is alot of cheddar. They probably decided that those that wont play on line was a resonable loss. That is only a guesstament on my part. Wow has like 9,000,000 subscribers paying what $10.00 a month. WotC WANTS SOME OF THAT ACTION! The changes are coming, either we play along, or go home.:rolleyes:
Dimensional_Drifter 10-06-07, 06:32 PM	Reasonable would be to calm down and be patient, 18delta, because last time I checked, the 4th edition realms aren't finished yet. This thing about WotC wanting another World of Warcraft? Why would they choose the realms for that? besides, D&D online has been out for a while, and is Eberron anyway. I don't see them making the Realms into the next WoW. Yes, the 8 million x $15 a month thing is a lot of money, but I don't think they would make that much with a Realms Online. Besides most of WoW's players aren't in North America or Europe, but in China. (not sure if that is where the majority of Realms fans reside now)
Rauric 10-06-07, 09:30 PM	Why don't you just wait until it comes out before you judge it? Honestly, there are bookstores where you can sit down and read the entire book before you buy it. Because it is more dramatic to make a "letter". On a side note making posts that make sense might get you killed here Puritan.;)
johnkretzer 10-06-07, 10:05 PM	Because it is more dramatic to make a "letter". On a side note making posts that make sense might get you killed here Puritan.;) Sigh....it isn't what they are doing currently that has me concerned it is what they already have done. I am getting tired of people who seen to think those who are unhappy about the future changes. No it is what they have revealed already. It is like watching a preveiw of a movie and not being at thrill to watch the movie. You won't go to see the movie. It seems to me that their is too much hype and excitment about the changes they are showing about that I think they are emotionaly attached to them. And are not veiwing them logicaly. If a letter by a large amount of people can get them to step back and stop patting each other on the backs I feel alot more confident in what they are doing.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 10-07-07, 12:05 AM	White Wizard, it's good advice for anyone writing a complaint letter to wait until their anger has cooled off a bit before writing it. People are just going to be more receptive to "reasonable" letters than they would be of rants.
Panurg 10-07-07, 07:24 AM	Frankly, it has the petulant and rambling quality of a child's temper-tantrum. Though I think it's mostly a usefull critic you gave I would like to add this soncerning that sentence: How kind of you commenting in such a usefull way about the quality of someone not having english as his native language. Try formulate a complaint letter in german and we'll see if you are such a cabable language artist yourself.;) I support white wizards letter. :) I'm into RPG since 1993 and I'm what you can call a good customer (owning a bookshelf full of literature and sourcebooks), but lately the habit of changeing the rules and creating new ways of gaining new customers is making me a bit angry. I'm not going to buy books with mostly the same content for a third time. Though I loved the graphical design of the 3.5 FR books they are in no way necessery for playing in the realms having all parts of the land displayed fully in 2ed. 3.5 failed in this task and in my opinion WotC stopped halfway and much to early. Now that I bought and enjoyed the new version they stop it and what do I get? a new Campaign setting? Which I already have in two versions? Thats not customer friendly. PS: As you can see english is also not my first language, so please keep your comments about my style to your self. :P
White_Wizard 10-07-07, 08:57 AM	As it was said to me, my first letter seemed a bit rude, so I wrote a new one trying to listen to suggestions (it is shorter, more FR-oriented and I think it is more clear the final goal). Make me know what do you think of the new one (and, yes, I let the rage steam off ;) ). Some of you already gave their support to the previous letter but, being this a new one, though having the same goal, if one of these feels he does not agree any more, make me know. Thanks. As always I'm open to suggestions. Dear WotC staff, I write this letter to express my concerns (and not only mine: this letter is signed by other players who share my point of view) about the incoming 4th Edition Forgotten Realms. You announced some very serious changes to the setting. So serious, in fact, that the setting itself won’t look the same anymore. I'm a relatively short term player, since I started buy D&D products in 2001 (it should be noted that, by now, I own 55 handbooks both from the 3.0 and 3.5 edition), so my opinion could be considered of secondary relevance. But when long term players, such as people who collect D&D material since the 80's (or even the 70's), say on the boards that they'll leave the game because of the 4E changes. They do not, of course, represent the whole number of old time players and what we may call it a certain “number of casualties” is taken into account for each new edition. Nonetheless I think it is worthy of note that people who have been through at least three D&D editions under TSR, one major change when 3.0 came out and the 3.5 change now are willing to quit the hobby. But, first, I have a few questions (which are highlighted in bold so that they are easily distinguishable): what if a player (or more players) are not interested in such changes? The answer could be that if a player is not interested with changing the Realms he can easily keep playing in the setting as it has been until now without including Spellplague in the Realms. Which is indeed the easiest way of continuing the game and previous campaigns without having to re-start everything. Ok, this is easily done, but it leads me to another question: what will be the use of buying 4E Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting if I am not interested in the changes? I think this may be a problematic question, because no group of player willing to continue with the old setting could be interested in the new one if it is so different from previously published material. And this leads me to a third question: if I already own every useful handbook to play in the older setting, thus being able to continue to play it with 3rd Edition rules, what would be the point of buying any 4th Edition material at all (and thus being forced to convert every single monster stat and everything)? Another question: Why have you decided to make such drastic changes? What are the reasons? Was it impossible to make a new setting matching market requirements you expect from the new Realms? I think it’s fair to give you the reasons because I’m so deeply concerned about the incoming 4th Edition of the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting (these also are written in bold and numbered for easier and quicker reference). 1) Spellplague: I think such event forces players onto a very specific style of play, which they may or may not enjoy, while one of the biggest advantages of the traditional Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting (hence FRCS) was that they gave a huge range of possible style of play that was enjoyed by a vast number of players with vastly different tastes. 2) Drastic changes concerning deities: this voice includes indeed more than one concern. The first being the inconsistency of some of the announced acts from gods like Tyr (the reasons for which he kills Helms – who is an ally – are very weak) or even Cyric and Shar (why the latter should kill Mystra, knowing that it will damage her shadow weaver users too? And if she didn’t know, why to act when we know that she is a goddess that plans everything with deadly accuracy? Please don’t tell that simply she made a mistake: solid reasons should be required for such big events). Another concern is the death of Mystra: not very original. How many times she died? At least twice, not counting this one. Frankly it’s getting ridiculous that a so powerful deity has the mortality rate of a laboratory rat. Third and last concern of this category is: during the Time of Troubles (hence ToT) Ao punished the whole pantheons with a world shaking event just because a few of them stole an artifact. Now that they are killing each other why he does not care? Does he care? How is going to be explained the apparent inconsistency of this? 3) Drastic reduction of the presence of magic and of high level NPC: FRCS has always been a high magic – high level campaign. I understand that a lot of fans may have asked for a low-magic low-NPC level campaign, but why change an existing one? Why couldn’t a new one be made? 4) Exaggerated timeline advancement: this forces players to begin an entirely new campaign; while this is one of the objective of the announced 4th Edition style of play, was it necessary to force such a decision by advancing 100 years in time? I understand that it was partially due to give consistency (at least a bit of) to world shaking events like the Spellplague, but since such events are under discussion, I think it’s fair to put some extension of doubt on this huge timeline advancement too. 5) Apparent deafness to players opinions: this is easily the worst thing. I don’t want to make it sound like a child’s complaint for not being listened to by his parents, but apparently other settings’ fans have been listened for when it came to make changes for 4th Edition (for example Wyatt was pleased to announce that the fans requests for the Eberron Campaign Setting –hence ECS- have been implemented in the incoming 4th Edition of that setting). Why didn’t the Forgotten Realms Fans benefit of the same attention level? Since the changes are so much more going to affect the setting, than simply advancing a couple of years in time. Was it fear of rejection that led you to announce changes without giving the fans a chance to express their opinion? Or were you so sure that the changes would have been accepted by the majority of fans? Even in this case I don’t understand why you didn’t leave at least a bit of space for our opinions and immediately resorted on saying: “We won’t go back on our decisions about 4th Edition FRCS”. Waiting an answer. Sincerely yours White_Wizard And: [here I'll put names or nicknames of those who will want to be included]
Rauric 10-07-07, 09:18 AM	On a side note I know several people that would not jump over to 3E from 2E right away. Actually they said they would never do it. Ever. They all play 3.5 now. This scenario I think will be common with 4E. Many gamers just want to play. I disliked the new Vampire the Requiem but my old GM has a cool idea for it and I am now interested in that and may buy some of the sourcebooks now. I said a few years ago I would never buy into the new WOD. *Shrug*.
The Ubbergeek 10-07-07, 02:38 PM	And then, peoples like me who are at least neutral to the changes should write to WOTC, voicing their own opinions and the concern about the Greyhawkification of FR. One setting felt. This one must not.
johnkretzer 10-07-07, 04:59 PM	And then, peoples like me who are at least neutral to the changes should write to WOTC, voicing their own opinions and the concern about the Greyhawkification of FR. One setting felt. This one must not. Then write your own letter if you believe in it that strongly...though I don't see how the alledged neutral position you hold can be strong. But I or any of the other people would not stop you...as a matter of fact I am encouraging you to do so. They should have everybody opinions on this.
johnkretzer 10-07-07, 05:00 PM	On a side note I know several people that would not jump over to 3E from 2E right away. Actually they said they would never do it. Ever. They all play 3.5 now. This scenario I think will be common with 4E. Many gamers just want to play. I disliked the new Vampire the Requiem but my old GM has a cool idea for it and I am now interested in that and may buy some of the sourcebooks now. I said a few years ago I would never buy into the new WOD. *Shrug*. I have personaly embraced every edition change till now...that should also say something don't you think?
johnkretzer 10-07-07, 05:11 PM	As it was said to me, my first letter seemed a bit rude, so I wrote a new one trying to listen to suggestions (it is shorter, more FR-oriented and I think it is more clear the final goal). Make me know what do you think of the new one (and, yes, I let the rage steam off ;) ). Some of you already gave their support to the previous letter but, being this a new one, though having the same goal, if one of these feels he does not agree any more, make me know. Thanks. As always I'm open to suggestions. If you don't mind some more suggestion... For point 2: I would point out if they wanted to lessen the power of the Weave and Mystra and her choosen you don't really need to have her dead to get this effect. For instance she might realize that it is dangerous to have the world reast on the shoulder of one deity and spread the power to the other gods of magic. Since she is diminished she only gets to keep one of her choosen which propably would be Elminster. Also since it is no longer the will of a single deity they have to agree on how magic works thus explaining the changes to accomandate the 4th edition new magic system. For point 3: You should point out that those players who want low magic and low-level NPCs have Eberron...so why bring your two setting into conflict for sales? For point 4: They have yet officialy announced the time line advance. So I think this should be either left out or just a stated desire that they don't jump the timeline that far. I would also point out that most of the changes are the result of novels being canon. If with out this change these problem will just keep happening just with different faces. The main reason why I personaly stoppewd reading the novels was in protest to them being canon...which I think more people should do.
Reneshat 10-08-07, 01:19 AM	I would also suggest when you reach the end, you might want to let someone who writes well and has English as a primary language smooth out some of the places where it's a little awkward do to English being your second language. As general feedback however, the second letter was very good, much better than the first. There is always room for improvement, but even I might be willing to sign my name to that, and I'm rather in the middle when it comes to the changes.
johnkretzer 10-08-07, 01:27 AM	I would also suggest when you reach the end, you might want to let someone who writes well and has English as a primary language smooth out some of the places where it's a little awkward do to English being your second language. As general feedback however, the second letter was very good, much better than the first. There is always room for improvement, but even I might be willing to sign my name to that, and I'm rather in the middle when it comes to the changes. I agree with him...though again I am not trying to insult you or anything but just trying to improving on your idea which is better then anyone else has done yet. Also I speak English as my first language and don't think I should be the one that write the final version. Yup Spelling and Grammar the banes to my writing career.
Selvarin 10-08-07, 02:13 AM	Here's the reality... If you want to write a letter of complaint then it needs to be shorter than that, and to the point. The explanations of each point can be expanded, but still...keep it within 1 1/2 written pages. My personal beef? The god-slayings: 1) Killing Mystra...yet again; 2) Poor rationale for having Helm killed (if you're going to do it, do it with panache); 3) Cyric yet again acting the tool and doing someone else's dirty work (I really don't see how WotC can make him more interesting, etc., if he essentially acts as Shar's lackey); 4) The drow thing...truly, if WotC kills off Eilistraee at the end of the Lady Penitent series as part of the pre 4e reorganization then it's the last nail in the coffin. (The GHotR not mentioning her death/defeat still doesn't mean she's out of the woods, I doubt they'd print a spoiler ahead of schedule.) Overly happy good drow players can be annoying but aside from Drizzt and the residents of the Promenade not a lot of 'good drow' are actually portrayed in the Realms, so they haven't been overdone. Personally, I think they've read enough on the message boards over the years. In some cases they're actually giving people what they say they wanted. (You know how it is, sometimes the curse of getting what you wish for...) I disagree with various things but I don't think their blinders are up. They may be puttering through with their windshield wipers ablaze in order to see ahead but they don't have blinders on. :P
White_Wizard 10-08-07, 05:57 AM	Thank you everyone for suggestions and support: I appreciate it very much (have I alredy said this? :) ). I'll try to find someone who will smooth my letter (or I'll double-check it with grammar book at hand ;) ). If you don't mind some more suggestion... As I said they'r always welcome. For point 2: I would point out if they wanted to lessen the power of the Weave and Mystra and her choosen you don't really need to have her dead to get this effect. For instance she might realize that it is dangerous to have the world reast on the shoulder of one deity and spread the power to the other gods of magic. Since she is diminished she only gets to keep one of her choosen which propably would be Elminster. Also since it is no longer the will of a single deity they have to agree on how magic works thus explaining the changes to accomandate the 4th edition new magic system. I wanted to try not to give suggestion on how things should be done because it's their work and they might be offended. If they are offended they'll be less likely to be fair with the letter. For point 3: You should point out that those players who want low magic and low-level NPCs have Eberron...so why bring your two setting into conflict for sales? Indeed I was convinced of this until they said to me that eberron is low-level NPC but high magic. For point 4: They have yet officialy announced the time line advance. So I think this should be either left out or just a stated desire that they don't jump the timeline that far. Yeash, right. And after all, timeline advancement is the least of the problems here. I would also point out that most of the changes are the result of novels being canon. If with out this change these problem will just keep happening just with different faces. The main reason why I personaly stoppewd reading the novels was in protest to them being canon...which I think more people should do. That's a fair point too. Again, thank you very much ;) Here's the reality... If you want to write a letter of complaint then it needs to be shorter than that, and to the point. The explanations of each point can be expanded, but still...keep it within 1 1/2 written pages. The second version is indeed 1 1/2 page Times New Roman 12. My personal beef? The god-slayings: 1) Killing Mystra...yet again; 2) Poor rationale for having Helm killed (if you're going to do it, do it with panache); 3) Cyric yet again acting the tool and doing someone else's dirty work (I really don't see how WotC can make him more interesting, etc., if he essentially acts as Shar's lackey); 4) The drow thing...truly, if WotC kills off Eilistraee at the end of the Lady Penitent series as part of the pre 4e reorganization then it's the last nail in the coffin. (The GHotR not mentioning her death/defeat still doesn't mean she's out of the woods, I doubt they'd print a spoiler ahead of schedule.) Overly happy good drow players can be annoying but aside from Drizzt and the residents of the Promenade not a lot of 'good drow' are actually portrayed in the Realms, so they haven't been overdone. Aside point 4) every other concern has been covered, to an extent, in the second version of the letter, which is posted here. Since the Eilistraee thing is potentially huge change, if you can confirm it to me, I'll see to add it to the number of concerns. [/QUOTE]Personally, I think they've read enough on the message boards over the years. In some cases they're actually giving people what they say they wanted. (You know how it is, sometimes the curse of getting what you wish for...) I disagree with various things but I don't think their blinders are up. They may be puttering through with their windshield wipers ablaze in order to see ahead but they don't have blinders on. :P[/QUOTE] Well, the point of the letter is to offer the other point of view, to make them know that there is a part of Forgotten Realms fans that doesn't feel any necessity of changes and also to offer a visual on how certain changes are utterly non-consistent and need to be adjusted, at least, if they are still willing to go on with their plans. Also, a couple of consideration on how such deep change in the setting is going to put some players in the condition of not being in any need of buying D&D 4th edition at all. Thank you as well.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 10-08-07, 02:55 PM	This new letter is much, much better than the first. I think I agree, though, that if you could shorten it even more, that would be all the better. Short and to the point is a good rule to follow, definitely. I'd be willing to proofread it for you--I consider myself to pretty adept at writing.
Alediran 10-08-07, 03:30 PM	I support Rino doing the proofread, a woman's touch is the best way to smother the rough edges of a man's work (especially when said man doesn't speak english as his main language)
Zanan 10-08-07, 03:48 PM	Maybe I am taking a risk here, but this is the second time within a couple of days that a designer writing on here has a straight go at a poster in a manner that borders on the wrong side of the CoC, which, I assume, is there for all to obey. No insult intended whatsoever. As for the topic: those mainly annoyed by all this are (IMHO) the DMs, who are in many a way treated like novel readers of a, say Harry Potter series. These poeple want facts, not half a ton of cliffhangers with no-one bar the designers knowing what is around the next corner. And this essentially includes both these trilogies "fixing" the setting with Realms-shaking events (The Haunted Lands, Lady Penitent, Last Mythal, WotSQ and to a lesser extend the Twilight War) as well as this far too early note on 4E and its events - i.e. the publication of TGHotR. Because of this lack of information - I kindly decline the daily scanning of a dozen blogs or so for any new scrap of info on things "under consideration" - some people start throwing up theories and hypothesis by the dozens, while others feel that the security of their own DM-existence unravels into a state where they know as much as their players. DMs don't want to sit on the wrong side of the screen. Of course, people will argue that no-one needs to follow the original timeline for the time being. But that is as good an idea as telling a footie team's supporter to change his or her team of choice if he wants to follow a more successful side. Heck, they destroyed the goddess of one of my main NPCs, and that will happen in 3 years in-game time. Not to mention those NPCs and PCs running about who have Selvetarm or Vhaeraun as their patron. Having players who saw their characters hunting Eilistraeens for years now looking at their character sheets and knowing (you see, they are not blind and illiterate) that Eilistraee will eventually take them all over ... you can essentially end that game now. (No need telling me how I can circumvent that, I'm able enough to deal with this. Others may not though.) What causes the most distress and the most polarized (if not to say volatile) opinions is the ultimate lack of information on some points. There is no reason to hold all cards to the chest till the appearance of the 4E FRCS. We do not speak about the return of Bane, but the e.g. existence of all spellcasters, deities, the new Shade nations and the like. It thus would be reasonable to assure the gamers ("DMs" would be more appropriate, but these days :rolleyes: ...) that there will be magic and mages and no Armageddon. That there will be decent pantheon or panthei and somesuch. Else, I can assure you here and now, it will be long and rough ride till 4E actually comes about and many a harsh word will be posted on here ... something which can be easily avoided.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 10-08-07, 04:11 PM	I support Rino doing the proofread, a woman's touch is the best way to smother the rough edges of a man's work (especially when said man doesn't speak english as his main language) :D Thank you!
Alediran 10-08-07, 04:15 PM	:D Thank you! I've learned some time ago that the merge of man and woman skills make a better result (that's why Elves are the superior race). And I surely prefer to bash my head trying to understand women, at least it gives me a good puzzle to solve :D
johnkretzer 10-08-07, 05:21 PM	I support Rino doing the proofread, a woman's touch is the best way to smother the rough edges of a man's work (especially when said man doesn't speak english as his main language) Second
johnkretzer 10-08-07, 05:27 PM	Maybe I am taking a risk here, but this is the second time within a couple of days that a designer writing on here has a straight go at a poster in a manner that borders on the wrong side of the CoC, which, I assume, is there for all to obey. No insult intended whatsoever. What was the response? Or a link? Though it really doesn't surprise me that the designers are taking these critism personaly. It is their work...I am sure they though almost everybody will love it. They guessed wrong and now their ego are hurt. Unfortunaly for them if they are this sensitive they should have not enter this profession.
Zanan 10-08-07, 06:29 PM	What was the response? Or a link? Check the Wyatt blog thread on this very same board. Though it really doesn't surprise me that the designers are taking these critism personaly. It is their work...I am sure they though almost everybody will love it. They guessed wrong and now their ego are hurt. Unfortunaly for them if they are this sensitive they should have not enter this profession. Honestly speaking, replies such as the above don't help either, nor will they make the work of the WizO's much easier. If we keep a civil and level-headed tone amongst one another, we will get our ideas over without getting ourselves into bother with the CoC, which will not help anyone.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 10-08-07, 07:38 PM	Second *is flattered*:embarrass
The Ubbergeek 10-08-07, 10:23 PM	Then write your own letter if you believe in it that strongly...though I don't see how the alledged neutral position you hold can be strong. But I or any of the other people would not stop you...as a matter of fact I am encouraging you to do so. They should have everybody opinions on this. In life, there is the 'mask' and there is 'you'. Also, I am a reactive kind of guy with a curious life philosophy who is similar to mordenkainen's 'neutralism drive'. Basicaly, if there was a general PRO consensus, I would become critic, in a form of devil's advocate. But the climate, at least in the FR fandom seems CON(?), so I tend to fall on the other side. The more passionate and radical (and annoying) the voices, the more I can get. It's a 'too much this, not even that' stance. If I am interested in a debate. Or I am just insane and/or lying to myself.. *shrugs*
johnkretzer 10-08-07, 10:51 PM	In life, there is the 'mask' and there is 'you'. Also, I am a reactive kind of guy with a curious life philosophy who is similar to mordenkainen's 'neutralism drive'. Basicaly, if there was a general PRO consensus, I would become critic, in a form of devil's advocate. But the climate, at least in the FR fandom seems CON(?), so I tend to fall on the other side. The more passionate and radical (and annoying) the voices, the more I can get. It's a 'too much this, not even that' stance. If I am interested in a debate. Or I am just insane and/or lying to myself.. *shrugs* That is more to do with the philosphy of a slaad...but hey whatever makes you happy...though you are not really debating.
White_Wizard 10-09-07, 06:20 AM	This new letter is much, much better than the first. I think I agree, though, that if you could shorten it even more, that would be all the better. Short and to the point is a good rule to follow, definitely. I'd be willing to proofread it for you--I consider myself to pretty adept at writing. Thank you very much. I'd like if you proof readed my letter. I've learned some time ago that the merge of man and woman skills make a better result (that's why Elves are the superior race). And I surely prefer to bash my head trying to understand women, at least it gives me a good puzzle to solve :D You too. Second And you. Three proof readers are the perfect number. If we keep a civil and level-headed tone amongst one another, we will get our ideas over without getting ourselves into bother with the CoC, which will not help anyone. This is what we are trying to do here, with this letter.
Zanan 10-09-07, 06:46 AM	A couple of post - none by you, White One - were the reasons of my post.
Chibikabki 10-09-07, 11:11 AM	I'm a relatively short term player, since I started buy D&D products in 2001 (it should be noted that, by now, I own 55 handbooks both from the 3.0 and 3.5 edition, so I gave my deal of bucks to the hobby), so my opinion could be considered of secondary relevance. But when long term players, such as people who collect D&D material since the 80's (or even the 70's), say on the boards that they'll leave the game because of the 4E changes (when they have been through at least three edition shifts under TSR, one major change when 3.0 came out and the 3.5 change), such a thing should give to think: "What have we done to convince such enduring customers to leave the game?" This is the question you WotC staff should ask yourselves and think very much and carefully about the answer, because you products' future is at stake. I like the irony here. Many 2e gamers were upset by the transition to 3e. In fact according to many estimates 20% of gamers quit buying new editions of AD&D when 3e came out. Now for some reason people care about what us old timers think? Sorry, but this letter will do nothing. Learn from history. You either have to buy into 4e or face the fact you will be playing an abandoned system. The handlers of AD&D do not care who leaves the system so long as they make an attempt at grabbing PC gamers. Remember Diablo 2? They shipped 3e rules for it in the box in an attempt at doing the same thing years ago and that flopped horribly. In the end you need to make a decision much like I did years ago. 3e drove me out and I have not looked back.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 10-09-07, 03:09 PM	Thank you very much. I'd like if you proof readed my letter. Will do, when I get home from work.:)
johnkretzer 10-09-07, 03:32 PM	I like the irony here. Many 2e gamers were upset by the transition to 3e. In fact according to many estimates 20% of gamers quit buying new editions of AD&D when 3e came out. Now for some reason people care about what us old timers think? Sorry, but this letter will do nothing. Learn from history. You either have to buy into 4e or face the fact you will be playing an abandoned system. The handlers of AD&D do not care who leaves the system so long as they make an attempt at grabbing PC gamers. Remember Diablo 2? They shipped 3e rules for it in the box in an attempt at doing the same thing years ago and that flopped horribly. In the end you need to make a decision much like I did years ago. 3e drove me out and I have not looked back. This is not about the edition change...at all. While I have more misgiving about 4th edition it isn't the reason for the outrage. If this was 1st or 2nd or 3rd they tried to do this with mt response would be the same.
White_Wizard 10-14-07, 12:15 PM	I'll send the letter on October 20th
msatran 10-16-07, 11:15 PM	I'll proofread it also. I have proofed Algernon Files and Scott Bennie's Gestalt Handbook, so I have real credits in the industry if you want. Currently, I'm proofing Michael Surbrook's "Giant Monster Hero." for Digital Hero.
Green Elven Vampire 10-16-07, 11:30 PM	Look... it's plain and simple... 3ED and 3.5ED have only been around for 6 or 7 years! There is no need for 4ED after only 6 or 7 years of the other 2 ED's. In another 5 years we'll most likely have 4.5ED so they can print all the same darn books all over again. 3ED was only around for 4 years before they came out with 3.5ED and then you had to buy all the same damn core books and FR books all over again just to keep up. (thank goodness 3ED and 3.5ED were compatible). Now we have 4ED coming WAY, WAY too soon, and it's not compatible with the other two relatively new editions, and on top of all this they are re-writing the damn history of Faerun and changing the present and future of FR in ways that make absolutely no sense at all. I for one will not buy a single core D&D or FR book when 4ED comes out. I am livid and let down by WoTc, and we all know they're doing it for the money and no other reason. Die 4ED, DIE!!!
johnkretzer 10-16-07, 11:58 PM	I'll proofread it also. I have proofed Algernon Files and Scott Bennie's Gestalt Handbook, so I have real credits in the industry if you want. Currently, I'm proofing Michael Surbrook's "Giant Monster Hero." for Digital Hero. Yeah he is...I know him in real life. I might be great at ideas, but actualy communicating them has always been my problem. I also think we should make a point that this not about 4th edition mechanics.
Spirithawkfellow 10-17-07, 01:41 AM	hello all, and White Wizard, I will say this I admire the passion you all have for the Forgotten realms, and White Wizard has even gone about writing a letter to WOTC, in the hopes of having them at least look over their actions in releasing a 4 edition, and a 4e version of the Realms. After a couple or months reading the forums and and listening to the raging debate of 4e. I would like to chime in on a few things. I'm a D.M. of the current setting and the have been playing the realms since it incarnation of the gray book way back. My fellow D.M. handed it to me when I was a rookie and I started running the game. The forgotten realms has always been a special place for me ever since. I have played every incarnation of the setting and my friends still play. I have noticed that there are several reasons, that the debate has raged so hot. In some circles people believe NPC are so powerful that they take away from the game, and their characters. Why would you ever play the characters from a book like you would in a game. There a reason they do things in the book that they shouldn't do in campaign. for one a novel is something we read by ourselves, it a story fact are of course expanded for the narrative it represents. The Realms Campaign is a game that is played with other people, the NPC are not central to the game the players are. If you are making the NPC the Deux Mechana of your game, then something is wrong. It not the NPC fault it the D.M. The game is made at the behest of the D.M. who is in fact the writer of the story and has control over all things in his game. We gamers can't beat up on wizards and The realms High powered NPC, just because they are there. If you don't like them take them out, it that simple. Elminster and Drizzts are Wizard's icon characters much like Superman and Batman are D.C. comics icons. They represent a lot of what people think of D&D nowadays, which is not a bad thing. The big thing about Wizards is that it is a business, and to keep business fresh they have to bring in new blood, while shedding some of the old. In many ways 4e is not needed. Wizards could garner a larger fan base if they used the assets they had at their disposal better. Wizards owns the right to many iconic intellectual properties that could be produced outside of Video games, and table top books, such as T.V. animation, toys, movies etc, that Hasbro being their parent company hasn't done this boggles my mind, thus we have a new edition of both the realms and game edition. By the way 4e isn't really 4e it more like 6e after all the editions and changes Dungeons and Dragons has undergone during it long history. Most here would agree that the Realms is a high magic, High Adventure, and High Dungeon Campaign setting, as it should be after more than 20 years under it belt. even if 4e happens to change this on a written book level, most D.M. are not going to stop running the realms as it is. The setting for all it new gloss and glamor still plays like the old gray box, which I still have and use on occasion. I agree with many about the current way most of the pantheon is being handled. Yet here I am knowing it will mean little in the long run not because I won't like what they have done, but because in the final analysis, it up to us to see what works out or doesn't. As D.M.s we might buy the setting but I know as well as you, that I will use the kernel of what ever they have placed down, and change it for the betterment of our players. And isn't that what the main thing here. I believe its not the setting itself, but the D.M. that is creating the story that will wow his or her players, and bring the settings to life, Regardless of editions. Give me the grey book and 2e and I would still run a great adventure. There are things I don't like about 3e and 3.5 either, such as text that look like legalese- explanations to things that don't make sense, or don't illustrate what the hell things are supposed to work with. In many ways these thing affect the game your trying to tell. So I won't pass Judgment on 4e yet, except to say that like all the other editions I will use it as my template of play, and make changes along the way. I feel the anger is more towards wizards for not taking all of us into there confidence and letting us help the with their plans. If you think that would happen I must tell you thats never the case. We are not shareholders to the company. Yes we buy their amazingly pricey books of a scant 150 pages, because we want to play, but they know we don't have to buy them if we dont want to. They know too some young kid will look in a Barons and Nobles or a marvel comic and smile at the Dark Elf with scimitar swords and panther, or the red robed, white bearded man with the enchanted smoking pipe and wish to find out more about them. We all are granted a grand opportunity here though, that none have looked upon. We can all share our adventures and possible futures for the Campaign we love through various outlets. I like what another member like Karsus is doing putting together a complete Elven Dictionary. Or myself working on my Anthology of forgotten realms stories for you to read one day. Perhaps some one here will make the spell plague much more interesting to play instead of what is given in the Ghotfr. Perhaps Ao the over god can't say anything because he no longer exist. What ramifications does this event have to Kelemevor, and remember to tear of his love with mystra (midnight), that cyric has in his possession. Perhaps that tear could hold the seed of her rebirth. You see, yes the spell plague could be a marketing ploy by the wizards of Seattle. But if they think we can't conjure something just as good, they are slightly out of the minds. They gave us a something that we should plan to work with and perhaps even make better. That the joy of role playing I can change anything I don't like, and still make my Realms Exciting even without what wizards have written down. So I say, sheath your steel, be patient, for when we see the final product we shall know what is to be. Thanks to all for just hearing me out Fare thee Well Spirit Hawkfellow- Great Great Great Great Grand Son of Fflar Starbrow, bearer of Keryvian and Knight of Mythdrannor
johnkretzer 10-17-07, 02:39 AM	@Spirit Hawkfellow: The problem is this is all about the story they are telling and how radicaly different then the story has been so far. Also your style of play seems very different then my own. A DM is not telling a story. A DM is does not have control over everything...especialy the PC's actions. True in the end this letter won't probably mean very much they will continue with thewir plans and we'll continue to develope the Realms in the consistent logical manner that we want in our RPG setting. But just maybe the next time they decide to destroy a setting so they can write their novels instead of creating they're own world. They will pause and stop to think about it. Maybe they will learn to respect the setting RPG side.
Spirithawkfellow 10-17-07, 03:21 PM	John, I know what your saying, and in many ways I agree. I would say this, instead of getting upset at what there making, use the stuff as a template. When I wrote we control the story and everything about it, I was speaking in terms on the D.M. side. No I never said I made decisions for my players. But I do create the scenarios, encounters, monster, music and virtually everything else. In this debate I think we short change them, for in the final say, they will give it the ok or not. What got me into the realms and D&D were the novels, and yes how they influenced the the game. Since way back early 1992 for me, I've noticed how they used the novels to really flesh out the setting. There a old FR book called Atlas of the Realms I have, that was created by a great map maker who passed away. These maps she created where mainly from the novels printed out. In many ways there has been no separation from what going on in the novels and in the books. The best thing about this setting, it allows all of us to move around and circumvent what ever is made up. I don't rely on the novels. But I do use them as a sort of newspaper on what going on in the Realms. Its funny my ranger I play Spirit, is the great great great grandson of Fflar in my Friends Realms game. Back when we were using the mythdrannor box set which I still have, my character claimed Keryvian, and it was a big thing for me, because that box set was a b..tch to play, and it added a new dimension and quest to the character over all design. Then Rick Baker comes and writes the last mythal trilogy, bringing fflar back and having him have Keryvian. I was like okay how can I work this. I was disappointed, but i said hell I can tell a good story out of this, and that what I'm doing now with the realms fan fiction novel I'm doing. I used what was being made for good or for bad, and I think regardless of what they make, you probably have a kick as Realms game, that won't suffer from any of the things they are doing. As for the business side it speaks for itself, as fan base, we hold a lot of power but in the end they have the final say. I will let them make there move and I'll make mine. We have tons of Fr lore out there, and as a D.M. I won't worry about the half baked plans they come up with. You might be surprised you might actually like the new stuff when all this is said and done.
johnkretzer 10-18-07, 02:28 AM	@Spirit Hawkfellow: I respect your position but you have to understand for me to allow the of the Spellplague or the Tyr /Sune/ Helm/ Tymora mess to happen...it really just removes too much of what I enjoy about the Realms. I can respect the design teams strongly held opinions on how the FR and the game should work. I would have liked them to be more moderate in their approach though. Or if they wanted to tell their stories to create a new world that fit them better.(Chris Perkins said this was thought of then discarded because they didn't want(Or think they could) to fully support 3 worlds...though I still think it wopuld have been better to test the market by limited support). Instead we have them pretty much ignoring previous lore to destroy the aspects of the FR that they precieve to keep them from telling their stories. Also you should understand this has nothing to do with 4th edition. While I am more apprehensive about the things they are doing flavor wise to D&D, the mechanics I haven't judge yet. Though I never had the problems others had with 3.x. While I respect your opinion what do you hope to gain in trying to convince us not to send a letter to them about our thoughts? I mean part of the problem is that I feel our voice was not heard at all in the development of the Realms and 4th edition. This is a constructive way to be maybe atleast heard. I'll personaly borrow both the 4th edition PHB and the FRCG when they come out and make mine final judgement then...but I rather have my feelings on these matters heard before it is too late.
Spirithawkfellow 10-18-07, 03:19 AM	John @Spirit Hawkfellow: I respect your position but you have to understand for me to allow the of the Spellplague or the Tyr /Sune/ Helm/ Tymora mess to happen...it really just removes too much of what I enjoy about the Realms. I can respect the design teams strongly held opinions on how the FR and the game should work. I would have liked them to be more moderate in their approach though. Or if they wanted to tell their stories to create a new world that fit them better.(Chris Perkins said this was thought of then discarded because they didn't want(Or think they could) to fully support 3 worlds...though I still think it wopuld have been better to test the market by limited support). Instead we have them pretty much ignoring previous lore to destroy the aspects of the FR that they precieve to keep them from telling their stories. Also you should understand this has nothing to do with 4th edition. While I am more apprehensive about the things they are doing flavor wise to D&D, the mechanics I haven't judge yet. Though I never had the problems others had with 3.x. While I respect your opinion what do you hope to gain in trying to convince us not to send a letter to them about our thoughts? I mean part of the problem is that I feel our voice was not heard at all in the development of the Realms and 4th edition. This is a constructive way to be maybe atleast heard. I'll personaly borrow both the 4th edition PHB and the FRCG when they come out and make mine final judgement then...but I rather have my feelings on these matters heard before it is too late. Reply With Quote John, I'm not saying for you not to have your opinion, and not voice it. Like many here you feel passionately about it, as do I, my whole thing is give it a chance, the book is several months out. I'm an artist, graphic designer, and writer, and I can relate to the designers some what. Its not easy creating something people will enjoy. Like I said before I don't agree with everything they do, but creating a setting or revising one isn't a easy thing to do. I tried to do this with my own homebrew, and I find myself often tinkering with it. What we haver here are the current designers battling against already established canon, and trying to modify it into something they think will pay off, god I hope it pays off for them, for the flack their getting. I would say if you lived in NYC the day this thing comes out I would be the first to go with you to see the success or the disaster it might be. So we come to a impasse my friend. In the end we shall see it for what it is. I am glad though to see how you feel and others. Trust me if the game sucks I'll be the first one give them hell. Check the thread I put up about the possible events that could lead to the and after the Spell Plague, let me know what you think...
johnkretzer 10-18-07, 03:31 AM	So we come to a impasse my friend. In the end we shall see it for what it is. I am glad though to see how you feel and others. Trust me if the game sucks I'll be the first one give them hell. And if it comes to pass that I liked it I'll be the first to give it praise...or if the 4th edition rules are worth adapting I'll be the first to give a alternate to the the 'official Realms'. I live in NJ...you might here me screaming in rage...because they have said they haven't revealed the biggest changes yet....and if the first ones are any indications..
Derenger999 10-18-07, 12:59 PM	Okay, so here is my opinion for the WOTC staff as well those on these boards. This will be the only time I give it. Bottomline, 4E is about money. I don't think anyone, whether it be people on these boards or WOTC staff, can argue what. WOTC is a company that sells product, and the goal of such a company is to MAKE MONEY. You make the product, people buy it and you profit, bottomline. Now, for those pleading with WOTC not to change things, please realize that you are but ONE CUSTOMER. Hell, even if you grabbed EVERYONE on these boards, do you not realize how very small of a percentage of the actual gamer population we represent? Our opinions matter little. What matters is market research. Although people on these boards may be used as such, I doubt very much that it counts for anything. What matters to WOTC is selling books. Look at 3.0 to 3.5. How many books were reprinted? How many books have been overly redundant (Look at Tome and Blood, Complete Arcane and Complete Mage)?? They could have just put out errata fixing all the problems, but instead they MADE MORE BOOKS...and hence made MORE MONEY. If you can't see that then I am sorry. Now, this is by no means a stab at the designers. Some of them have put out very good, quality product. But you have to remember that they have very little say on when or how a new edition comes out. Can you imagine if Jeff Grubb or Rick Baker had told their boss "No sorry, we're not doing another edition, we don't feel it's right" They would have been given their pink slip there and then. Now, they might have some control on HOW the edition comes out and what it will entail, but I believe that the big wigs up in Hasbro and WOTC said "Yep, time for a new edition, let the troops know" and that was that. The designers work for them and can't override their decisions, whether they like them or not. Bottomline, yes I'm annoyed a new edition is coming out so soon...but surprised? No, not in the least. RPG's are a business and business is rutheless and cuthroat, and therefore doesn't give care about your letters on a forum that doesn't represent the majority of customers. And before some of you jump on me saying "White Wizard was complaining about the CHANGES made, not the new edition" When a new edition comes out, if it's all the SAME stuff, with a little bit of fluff thrown in, do you think it will honestly sell better than the old stuff? Yes, the Realms didn't change all that much from 2E to 3E, but they changed THE WHOLE SYSTEM. Now, since they are not making major changes to the system, other drastic changes have to occur for the product to sell. So, that's why you have the Realms being butchered, and I imagine Eberron not soon after. Sorry so long, just my two cents. Please feel free to rip me apart lol.
Alediran 10-18-07, 01:08 PM	@Derenguer: have you looked at the changes on the system. They are huge, they basically changed the vancian system for spellcasters to something new. And that's just one thing. The wheel and tree are being replaced. And so on. As you said, if the change in the system is Huge, and that is exactly how D&D is changing, then you don't need to change the lore that much to sell new books. The changes they are doing to the realms are to give novel writers an easier backgroud (dumbed-down actually) to write their RSE without having to recieve the realms loremasters' complaints about something they wrote (for example Richard Baker's botch about the Tree of Souls in LMT)
msatran 10-18-07, 01:59 PM	Yeah. How many trees of souls does it take to change a light bulb?
MarkusTay63 10-18-07, 02:02 PM	"The Tree of Souls must be stopped!" ;)
18DELTA 10-18-07, 02:10 PM	"The Tree of Souls must be stopped!" ;) :eek: :rofl: :bow: :coolcthul
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 10-18-07, 02:48 PM	Now, for those pleading with WOTC not to change things, please realize that you are but ONE CUSTOMER. Hell, even if you grabbed EVERYONE on these boards, do you not realize how very small of a percentage of the actual gamer population we represent? Our opinions matter little. What matters is market research. Although people on these boards may be used as such, I doubt very much that it counts for anything. No offense, but what is the point of such an argument? I've heard it before, I am hearing it from you now, and it prompts me to say that just because each individual opinion might matter that much to WotC, doesn't mean there's no point in making our opinions known. That's the whole point of having a discussion forum, after all!
Derenger999 10-18-07, 02:55 PM	No offense, but what is the point of such an argument? I've heard it before, I am hearing it from you now, and it prompts me to say that just because each individual opinion might matter that much to WotC, doesn't mean there's no point in making our opinions known. That's the whole point of having a discussion forum, after all! It's okay to give your individual opinion, that's all fine and dandy. But I'm afraid that all these threads of "Why did you destory my Realms" and blah blah blah are put up here to try and sway the minds of the WOTC staff. I'm simply stating that although your opinion is yours to give, don't give it with the expectation that people at WOTC are going to care. I use these boards primarily for resource for my Forgotten Realms campaign, I have no illusion that if I post my opinion that ruining the Forgotten Realms campaign setting with 4E that one of the WOTC staffers is going to go "Oh, wait, look at what this guy said, we should take this to our boss and show how wrong he is!" I am not trying to be mean, but I really hope that people are not wasting their time on these boards trying to get WOTC to change their minds, because it's honestly not going to happen, no matter how much you want it to.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 10-18-07, 03:19 PM	I am not trying to be mean, but I really hope that people are not wasting their time on these boards trying to get WOTC to change their minds, because it's honestly not going to happen, no matter how much you want it to. Well, to be fair, we've been told by Rich Baker (I think) that WotC does indeed read these boards and are taking what people say into account. Of course, he also said that stuff like the Spellplague and the other planned major changes are a done deal at these point, so while they at WotC may change around the details of some of their plans, they won't be changing the basic outline of what are going to do. So I agree that hoping to make the Spellplague "go away" is futile.
Spirithawkfellow 10-18-07, 03:56 PM	Rinonalyrna Fathomlin's, and everbody, I think it comes to this point of saying the letter that white white wizard created was a good start, if it needs to be more vocal, let get that petition going. Or if we don't like the changes putting forth, let start trying to create other options. If Rich Baker and a lot of the staff do read the forums, they can see how much we love the realms by what we as D.M. create. Look to how candle keep creates stuff for the realms. That mean we can have something similar or band together here. I will say this if we do have the ear of he designers, this is now the time to show them what other ideas we can come up with. I lay down the challenge to everybody. If you think you have better ideas, look for my possibilities thread in the general information section. Lets start being proactive and create something that might just make wizards second what they are doing. What say you all???
johnkretzer 10-19-07, 01:22 AM	Rinonalyrna Fathomlin's, and everbody, I think it comes to this point of saying the letter that white white wizard created was a good start, if it needs to be more vocal, let get that petition going. Or if we don't like the changes putting forth, let start trying to create other options. If Rich Baker and a lot of the staff do read the forums, they can see how much we love the realms by what we as D.M. create. Look to how candle keep creates stuff for the realms. That mean we can have something similar or band together here. I will say this if we do have the ear of he designers, this is now the time to show them what other ideas we can come up with. I lay down the challenge to everybody. If you think you have better ideas, look for my possibilities thread in the general information section. Lets start being proactive and create something that might just make wizards second what they are doing. What say you all??? There is a thread out there called "What if you had creative lead" or something like that. Lots of us already did that there and in other places.
White_Wizard 10-20-07, 11:46 AM	The letter has been sent. I should receive an answer within 2 business days. I'll post it here, anyway, so stay tuned. I think it's fitting to say that the die is drawn :)
White_Wizard 11-08-07, 06:59 AM	So far no answer, aside a brief "we've read your letter, thanks for your feedback" that has been sent a couple of days after the letter has been sent.
Rauric 11-08-07, 08:00 AM	Maybe the die is cast?
Stigger 11-08-07, 08:09 AM	Has been for a while I suspect... a good, long while.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 11-08-07, 09:11 AM	So far no answer, aside a brief "we've read your letter, thanks for your feedback" that has been sent a couple of days after the letter has been sent. It's very possible that's all you'll get. At least they responded to you though.
Selvarin 11-08-07, 12:57 PM	Could be worse. Like when I sent a letter to Janet Jackson about a good idea for a duet (I was a youngin' at the time!) I wound up getting some postcard from her fan club showing she and two of her pooches. Yeah I felt listened-to that day. :rolleyes: So don't expect none because they're roaring ahead even if you light bonfires on the train tracks. Oh, and there's no Santa Claus. :tantrum:
Lord Karsus 11-08-07, 01:32 PM	Oh, and there's no Santa Claus. :tantrum: -Crap... -Thanks a lot...
Selvarin 11-08-07, 01:45 PM	Could be worse. Skull the Troll (from PvP) thinks it's actually Superman who delivers the presents. Like a super-sonic version of UPS.
Stigger 11-08-07, 03:21 PM	Well, there used to be a Santa Claus, but WotC shot him down one Christmas Eve at their top-secret arctic Developer Re-Education Center with soviet made SAMs... sweeping the burning wreckage of his sleigh and what remained of the reindeer with 23mm AAA as it slowly descended to a frozen grave. Damned WotC must be stopped... :(
Blibbering_Humdinger 11-08-07, 04:38 PM	I would have waited until 4E Forgotten Realms was actually published, personally, before jumping the gun and making such a decision as that. Besides, I'd never be able to stop myself from buying the next Drizzt book, sucker for scimitars that I am. :P
Lord Karsus 11-08-07, 07:25 PM	-Wait a minute. I just remembered that I don't celebrate Christmas, so it's okay! Now, if you ever said that Chanukkah Harry wasn't real... :(
Stigger 11-08-07, 07:40 PM	Nope, he got blown away by WotC's ADA on a secret 4e development island just off the coast of Cyprus too... sorry.
Lord Karsus 11-08-07, 07:41 PM	-Who's going to bring socks to all the little Jewish boys and girls now!? -Hmm...Karsus to the rescue! I'll have to add that one to the resume.
Stigger 11-08-07, 07:44 PM	Don't forget your RAM coating, ECMs, flares, and chaff then...
Lord Karsus 11-08-07, 07:46 PM	-Please. We're up to, what, 4th edition, and TSR/WotC hasn't sucessfully killed me yet.
Stigger 11-08-07, 08:17 PM	No, but they have pretty seriously debilitated you a time or two... :P
Lord Karsus 11-08-07, 08:27 PM	No, but they have pretty seriously debilitated you a time or two... :P -But, yet, here I am! :D
Stigger 11-08-07, 08:28 PM	Wouldn't be so sure come 4e... ;)
Lord Karsus 11-08-07, 11:00 PM	Wouldn't be so sure come 4e... ;) -Bah! With all of the crazy changes set to take place, I wouldn't be surprised if I came back, ushering in a new age in Faerûnian history.
18DELTA 11-08-07, 11:49 PM	Hey LK what if you become the new and improved God of Magic? All this talk of time travel, you never know!:D
Reneshat 11-09-07, 01:58 AM	-Wait a minute. I just remembered that I don't celebrate Christmas, so it's okay! Now, if you ever said that Chanukkah Harry wasn't real... :( **************************************** **** -Who's going to bring socks to all the little Jewish boys and girls now!? :rofl: :heehee
Lord Karsus 11-09-07, 11:58 AM	Hey LK what if you become the new and improved God of Magic? All this talk of time travel, you never know!:D -I can't say that I'll be too thrilled, but I wouldn't ignore the invitation. After all, in Realmspace, deities of magic don't have too good of a track record.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 11-09-07, 01:44 PM	But look how long YOU managed to survive!
Lord Karsus 11-09-07, 03:16 PM	But look how long YOU managed to survive! -Well, it was being the deity of magic that got me in this predicament to begin with!
18DELTA 11-09-07, 03:37 PM	-Well, it was being the deity of magic that got me in this predicament to begin with! But Lord Karsus you are our only Hope!!!!!!:D Maybe just maybe this will be you chance to shine!:) So how many Chosen will you have in the 4E Realms?:cool:
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 11-09-07, 03:58 PM	-Well, it was being the deity of magic that got me in this predicament to begin with! But you are alive (or sentient?), competent, and well-liked.:)
Stigger 11-09-07, 05:39 PM	Don't forget respected and a goof as well... hard to balance those two really. :D
Lord Karsus 11-09-07, 07:12 PM	But Lord Karsus you are our only Hope!!!!!!:D Maybe just maybe this will be you chance to shine!:) So how many Chosen will you have in the 4E Realms?:cool: -Well, for one thing, I'd make the Seven Sisters my Chosen, just to mess with those who hate 'em. I, personally, have nothing against them, and if given the choice of being served by two grumpy old men (Elminster and Khelben), or seven attractive women (sisters, no less!), I'd have to go with the latter. And then, of course, of of the Hands of Karsus will get some kind of benefit, as would all of my Kult leaders. But you are alive (or sentient?), competent, and well-liked. -On each point, some would beg to differ. :teach: ;) Don't forget respected and a goof as well... hard to balance those two really. :D -Nah, it's pretty easy, what with being insane and having a fragmented, tripartite soul and all.
Hopeless 12-30-07, 04:13 PM	Just a thought but doesn't it feel like they've rushed this? My problem with 4e is that it feels too much like a new campaign setting and yet the first setting they've listed is the Forgotten Realms and it feels like someone is pushing them and they've decided to ignore the safeties in their rush to pull this off. I don't claim to know the facts I even hoped the merger would be between Mystara and Faerun admittedly I was thinking more on the lines of it replacing where Evermeet was but I was wondering if you'd care to comment on this after all if they've really going to go to press regardless of any objections or attempts to make them see sense is this ultimately going to prove futile? I'm still kicking myself for getting rid of all my 2e stuff since I really liked Eberron but all of this 4e stuff has really put me off even that and I have never run a Faerun game because I played in a Faerun campaign and never felt up to par but this feels wrong. I know they're supposed to be looking to remin profitable but surely they can do better than this? Off the top of my head after reading about this Empire of Nerath off Enworld I was wondering why wasn't THAT the first setting giving Faerun a year reprieve so they can work out how to reveal that the Nerath aftermath was the otherside of Faerun's world and its reappearance would result in the dwindling in the new Faerun's natures so that the gods would be dwindled as a result of this merger rather than outright use of ridiculous excuses this could have been used as a far better economic revenue than what they're doing right now so what I liked to know is do you feel the same and if not can you explain why they're pursuing this course of action when the monetary side really doesn't work when you consider this. Whose pushing the buttons at WTOC? Oh and happy new year to one and all, take care and all the best!
Selvarin 12-30-07, 04:35 PM	Corporate and pink slips hovering, perhaps? In any event I don't know where the 'not up to par' comes from. Unless you try mixing too much from other settings or cut a bunch out (like what WotC is doing now), it'll still be FR. ;)
Ranger REG 01-01-08, 03:54 PM	I'm taking a wait-and-see, White Wizard. This is after all a RPG-based franchise, not a TV-based franchise like Star Trek (with whom I have a major almost-violent gripe with Brannon Braga and Rick Berman). I can tailor Forgotten Realms in my own vision for my gaming group.
MaskedOne 01-04-08, 01:32 PM	ignore