Post/Author/DateTime	Post
miscellany 03-12-07, 01:48 AM	Only because JulesCARV was so brave (if foolhardy) to try this and only because he was successful (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=802016), we dare to do the same. My thanks to Jules and the Eberron fans for making that thread a success. Let us borrow heavily from Jules’ words and hope the Realms fans can do just as good (if not better): I'm very curious to find out what people's favorite, positive things about Eberron are here on the FR boards. (Note: If people here have absolutely nothing good to say about Eberron, anti- Eberron views in the form of sarcastic praise is acceptable, and could make for a reasonably entertaining thread, but I –like Jules before me- would really rather see some actual things people like about it, even if they may think The Realms are twenty billion times better.) :::::::::::::::: I like Eberron because it pushes pulp-action and heroic adventure themes. Miss Miscellany tells tales of one of her characters where said Cleric swung about on a storm-tossed ship and did battle with her comrades against a Kraken on the seas between Sharn and Xen-Drik, which I think is an example of what the designer’s of the setting were going for. For me as a Realms DM I like that Eberron reminds me to keep fun and action in my games and the books (beyond the fantastic art) are all of them treasure troves I can borrow from for my own Forgotten Realms campaign. :D
Stigger 03-12-07, 01:55 AM	The lighting trains and elemental airships... big fan of those. I could see those two things popping up in Halruaa or Thay at some point. The ideas behind some of the new races are appealing as well... Warforged and Changelings in particular, though I like the shifters as well. Overall though, I don't care much for the fluff of the setting, seeing it as far too dark for my liking. Heroism and swashbuckling pulp is fine by me, but some of the stuff they've come up with it nearly sickens me to think of, and both of those are things I've never had a problem fitting into my Realms.
Dark Wizard 03-12-07, 02:42 AM	Excellent Execution. Eberron took a mildly interesting concept and through respect for the setting's premise made the concept its own. The setting has grown, but I don't feel that growth has compromised the setting, unlike how TSR's attempts at increasing material for FR saddled the setting with all sorts of ill-considered disparities and weirdness. While I wouldn't say such attempts by TSR entirely ruined the setting (it obviously hasn't) it did severely disrupt the flow of FR, which is one main reason why typical FR vs. Eberron vs. Other Setting discussions go the way they do. Everything about Eberron seems crafted to give the setting what it needs or things that fit well into it, very few extraneous pieces are thrown into the setting, so fans of the setting aren't jarred from their suspension of disbelief. There is a solid art direction that uses the artwork to promote the atmosphere of the setting, rather than the hodgepodge we get with FR. The premise and tone is laid out in a clear manner at the beginning of the ECS (better stated than FR). This helps immensely because not only do gamers understand what the designers intended, but other designers understand the vibe the creators wanted the setting to portray. This maintains a more unified voice throughout Eberron's publication life. I think how Eberron was executed in its ongoing publication history is a good model for WotC to take with FR. I feel other administrative aspects of Eberron would work well for if applied to the Realms. Mix the approach of FR novels with Eberron novel approach with respect to canon. I don't feel all FR novels should be canon. A policy should be adopted that unless a gaming sourcebook says an event is official, it isn't, novels are just a secondary source. This still allows for advancement of the timeline. Eberron showed that an entirely non-canon novel line can still supports the setting. I like how Eberron tries to keep NPCs from becoming too high level. I wouldn't want FR to reduce all it's NPCs to CR 12 or below (that's erring in the opposite direction FR went). However, I feel a CR 27 character can just as easily handle situations as a CR 39 characters, especially when these situations are based on the nebulous events of novels. Otherwise I would definitely prefer attempts at encouraging scaling NPC levels. I like some of the new elements introduced by Eberron into D&D such as more overtly magical airships through elemental binding rather than magic zeppelins. All of the new races are interesting in their own way. I like the image of the Church of the Silver Flame. I like how they used an oriental theme for Sarlona, but kept it as one of many influences instead of an overriding template. Ultimately I feel the company "respects" Eberron more than FR in some ways. I think Eberron has a lot to show for the respect given it, an example I hope WotC understands and considers with FR. If you let a setting follow its premise, things will work out well.
Bolithio 03-12-07, 04:19 AM	They are different. I like it that way. If everything was the same, there might as well just be Greyhawk - and nothing else. FR has so much source material that adding another layer is not going to give any depth the the setting. Special all the fancy technology of Eberron. That is what is unique about that setting. Personally - I liked the concept of Sharn. Though the trains and warforge, etc. is a bit of stretch for me. FR has the more fantasy vibe that im into. This is true of the content and the Artwork. Its ok though... should Eberron be discussed in the Eberron area?
Krash 03-12-07, 08:31 AM	I have time only to be obsessed with one campaign world. But the articles on Eberron I've read in Dragon magazine indicate that this is a world rich in detail. In 20 years time, it may well rival the Realms. If so, great. -- George Krashos
MarkusTay63 03-12-07, 08:35 AM	I would have to agree Completely with Stigger, I TOTALLY picture MY Halrua being Eberron - Sharn, the train, the airships, even the Dragonmark Houses (which I just call 'guild tattoos'). The Orcs portrayed as a an earthy, primitive people (a'la Amerinds), rather then a bunch of bloodthirsty savages. Likewise, the Goblins being a 'fallen' civilization, sort of how the goblins were SUPPOSED TO BE in ancient Cormyr (in other words, done RIGHT). The Ebil elves :D. I personally prefer Eberron's Elves over FR's, THEY PWN! (sorry ;) ). The history behind the ancient Giant/Dragon war (another thing FR screwed up), and the two continents representing those 'lost' civilizations. The Lhazaar Pricipalities (What Pirates of the Fallen Stars could have been), pirates PLUS the Blood of Vol! Dino-riding halflings (What Ghostwise SHOULD have been) and the Mournlands (What Anuaroch should have been). Sarlona - what the entire eastern half of the Faerun continent COULD have been (Maybe minus the psionics :P ). The entire campaign based on having just gotten over a 'World War', several settings do that and I like the concept a lot. Wars tend to be very localized in FR, which doesn't make a lot of sense because in th RW they tend to always spill into neighboring areas. Races - HATE 'EM! It's the only spot I can think of where they dropped the ball (aside from that Abysmal cosmology). Robots and wanna-be's, it doesn't seem like a whole lot of thought went into that part of the setting. I do like the Dolgaunt though, the idea of a deviant race spawned by Chaos and giving birth to all the known aberrations appeals to my Cthulhu side. :coolcthul All that being said, I still prefer FR. The magic-tech level is way too high, and thats why I reserve it for Halrua only. Also the whole Dragonmark/shard thing is way out there, thats why I just call 'em guilds (in MY Halrua). Don't really care for all the Demons/bad guys living underground either, but thats just me.
Old Sage 03-12-07, 08:36 AM	Krash hit the nail right on the head. I've only had a limited exposure to the setting myself, but it's obvious from even that small amount that Keith Baker's putting as much love into fleshing out Eberron as Ed initially did, officially, with the Forgotten Realms back in 1987. If I weren't already so focused solely on the Realms, I could see myself becoming just as obsessive with Eberron-lore as I have with the Realmslore. Just give it twenty or so years! ;)
GothicDan 03-12-07, 11:33 AM	While I do not agree with some basic design methods of Eberron, I really do like a lot of the way things have been implemented in the setting, and a lot of the ideas. But my one regret is that the designers didn't represent such moral ambiguities and magical tech, and the like, in FR products as they did in Eberron; they DO exist. I guess it was WotC trying to specialize the settings (as TSR did before). But I'd happily lift ideas from Eberron and place them where appropriate in FR, and if I had the time and money to become obsessed with another setting (a la Krash), I'd look more closely into it. As it is now, I'm content to lurk on the board. :)
Renvale999 03-12-07, 01:01 PM	Eberron is a good setting if you don't like using canon material. It leaves alot of things open for the DM and players alike to explore on their own. I've run some very successful games in Eberron and it is a good change of pace from the Realms. But in defense of the Realms...I like the fact that I can pick up almost any regional book and do a little research and have a campaign idea to work with in minutes. Sometimes it's nice not having to think up everything that is in a particular area. Saves time and effort which I'm short of because of long work days.
The Heretic 03-12-07, 01:44 PM	I like its meta-design qualities. It looked at the 20-30 years of D&D history, looked for the screw ups, the mess ups, the missed opportunities, and took them into account. I haven't really played in Eberron but I've advised a few newer DMs who are running the setting. I think what I like most is that the younger generation likes it, and that they'll grow up with it just like you and I did with the Forgotten Realms.
johnkretzer 03-12-07, 03:51 PM	Personaly I like the Fr and Eberron equaly. Both worlds offer something different but bot I found fun. The one thing Eberron has over the FR is that they are staying away from some mistakes the they did with the FR...atleast for the time being....
msatran 03-12-07, 06:01 PM	No, it doesn't have that. Eberron suffers from Cosmopolitan Racial Harmony disease. It has incredible political disharmony disease, but I really miss the days when Elves and Dwarves could barely stand to be in the same room. Now everything is shiny happy and bright.
johnkretzer 03-12-07, 06:18 PM	No, it doesn't have that. Eberron suffers from Cosmopolitan Racial Harmony disease. It has incredible political disharmony disease, but I really miss the days when Elves and Dwarves could barely stand to be in the same room. Now everything is shiny happy and bright. Oh and the Realms don't have this at all? So it breaks sterotypes? Also tell the Halflings and the Valanar all about this this 'Cosmopolitan Racial Harmony', or the warforged, or a shifter or a changeling? Also why do dwarves and elves hate each other...there is no reason for it culturaly or socialy, or politicaly. I mean they don't share the same living place, they have the same enemies. While it is fine it isn't a weak point in a setting. Also this thread was meant to be in praise of Eberron...if you don't have anything nice to say don't post...or if you feel this shouldn't be here post that comment don't go into a attack. Anyway sorry for a derailing but I felt this needed to be adressed
Karsus the Mad 03-12-07, 07:32 PM	It's the airships for me. Love em'. The rest, I simply don't know enough about it to formulate an opinion. I get good ideas from the Eberron boards and use those as the a basis for many of my Lantan concepts. The warforge are interesting. So are those trains. From a crunchy side, I really like that feat that allows you to wear more rings:P
HxHunter 03-12-07, 09:37 PM	Eberron is a great setting. The only problem I have with it is that most of the best crunch is for druids (Planar Shepard, Moonspeaker, druidic sect feats). It's the airships for me. Love em'. The rest, I simply don't know enough about it to formulate an opinion. I get good ideas from the Eberron boards and use those as the a basis for many of my Lantan concepts. The warforge are interesting. So are those trains. From a crunchy side, I really like that feat that allows you to wear more rings:P I think there might be a similar feat in a FR book (Jarlaxle must have taken it several times :) ).
Karsus the Mad 03-12-07, 10:01 PM	Really? The only other feat that I know of is Additional Magic Item Space, which is an Epic Feat.
Stigger 03-13-07, 12:32 AM	True... more tings feat is pretty handy without having to go epic. Forgot about that one... same thing with those item creation feats that drop off some of the creation costs. Like those a lot too, but previously the only way to do it was via epic feats. Oh well, nothing keeping us from migrating the feats over. :D
Dark Wizard 03-13-07, 12:45 AM	From a crunchy side, I really like that feat that allows you to wear more rings:P That feat alone spawned a character concept for me.
Bolithio 03-13-07, 01:15 AM	I have time only to be obsessed with one campaign world. But the articles on Eberron I've read in Dragon magazine indicate that this is a world rich in detail. In 20 years time, it may well rival the Realms. If so, great. -- George Krashos amen.
MarkusTay63 03-13-07, 10:19 AM	From a crunchy side, I really like that feat that allows you to wear more rings:PWoW! :eek: Talk about perfect timing, I was just working on creating this feat for the Kara-Tur setting! I didn't even think to check the Eberron rules; a few of those will have to emigrate over into the Oriental Realms. :D I'll give you one guess who I'm trying to create. ;) The only thing I would adjust is that you can take the feat more then once, gaining two each time. I was going to do one ring each time the feat was taken, but thats a little extreme. Also, it includes ALL rings - Earing, nose ring, Belly button ring, etc... I forgot about all those item creation feats, another definate plus coming out of the World of Eberron. I might just have to do a 'Planet Amalgam' map someday, in the cross-over universe.
GothicDan 03-13-07, 03:32 PM	Also why do dwarves and elves hate each other...there is no reason for it culturaly or socialy, or politicaly. I mean they don't share the same living place, they have the same enemies. While it is fine it isn't a weak point in a setting. The relationships between Dwarves and Elves is immensely complex and varied, and has been explored in little snippets, yet exhaustively altogether, over the past 30+ years in sourcebooks and novels. Purely psychologically speaking, things that look immensely different from yourself are looked upon, initially, with negative emotions: distrust, paranoia, maybe a little bit of fear and repulsion. This is why most people do not find animal species other than humans attractive. Those who are raised in a given culture their entire lives, especially when young, have all the more reason to be afraid of those who look and sound different; and it's not specific to humans or demihumans, either. For instance, my dog had never been around African American people all of his life. Then, he moved in with my mother and her African American boyfriend. Two years later, while he likes him, he's still very cautious around him; he LOOKS different. Difference, to the animal mind, means that things aren't how they normally are, and one naturally, neurologically, falls back on precautions and sometimes even open hostility, just in case those differences would in somehow endanger one's personal being. That's a sort of half-assed developmental/evolutionary psychological view of it. It may not be perfect, but the jist is there, and it would be as true for Elves and Dwarves as it is for humans and animals. After all, it's a proven fact that people who are "better looking" than average have initially warmer responses from complete strangers than those who are average or ugly. An Elf is probably ugly to a Dwarf, and vice versa - at least, until they use their minds to get past those base animal prejudices. But then you have vastly different cultures, developed over tens of thousands of years, and elders who still rule those cultures and "know what's best" after centuries (and longer, sometimes), coupled with two races whose adolescents are far less likely to rebel and cause social upheaval.
MarkusTay63 03-13-07, 06:53 PM	Elves like to dance and frolic under the open sky, and Dwarves are most comfortable underground. To most Dwarves that live in a (subterranean) Dwarvish kingdom, the 'sky' is VERY frightening. To an Elf who has been raised in a woodland setting a cavern would be anathema to him. This is, on the most basic physchological level, such a vast difference in how they perceive the world that both thinks the other is 'nuts'. Humans, on the other hand, fit in everywhere and with everybody, so preconceptions usually don't apply in their case. @Dan - It's really the smell, dogs don't see that well (we all look alike to them). However, different human races give off slightly different odors, and animals can perceive that.
johnkretzer 03-14-07, 12:41 AM	The relationships between Dwarves and Elves is immensely complex and varied, and has been explored in little snippets, yet exhaustively altogether, over the past 30+ years in sourcebooks and novels. Purely psychologically speaking, things that look immensely different from yourself are looked upon, initially, with negative emotions: distrust, paranoia, maybe a little bit of fear and repulsion. This is why most people do not find animal species other than humans attractive. Those who are raised in a given culture their entire lives, especially when young, have all the more reason to be afraid of those who look and sound different; and it's not specific to humans or demihumans, either. For instance, my dog had never been around African American people all of his life. Then, he moved in with my mother and her African American boyfriend. Two years later, while he likes him, he's still very cautious around him; he LOOKS different. Difference, to the animal mind, means that things aren't how they normally are, and one naturally, neurologically, falls back on precautions and sometimes even open hostility, just in case those differences would in somehow endanger one's personal being. That's a sort of half-assed developmental/evolutionary psychological view of it. It may not be perfect, but the jist is there, and it would be as true for Elves and Dwarves as it is for humans and animals. After all, it's a proven fact that people who are "better looking" than average have initially warmer responses from complete strangers than those who are average or ugly. An Elf is probably ugly to a Dwarf, and vice versa - at least, until they use their minds to get past those base animal prejudices. But then you have vastly different cultures, developed over tens of thousands of years, and elders who still rule those cultures and "know what's best" after centuries (and longer, sometimes), coupled with two races whose adolescents are far less likely to rebel and cause social upheaval. Very long and thisn't isn't the place but you name the reasons why they might not love each other...but hate? Put this way despite what people might believe there are some forms of bigortry that aren't just mindless...they might be wrong but there are factors for them. But right there are people who can be called bigots because of a the illegel immirgration or their jobs going overseas. While it isn't right it isn't instinctual either. Also I have seen dogs who are in a similar incident and are completely comforable with it. Dogs have a pack mentality he is probably uncomfortable because he was placed in a situration with a new pack leader. And lastly I have also seen a alot of time when the reaction was curious not fear or hatered in real life. Also the dislike between dwarves and elves date back futher then FRs. But this isn't the thread for this discussion... also while it is fine that it is in the Realms not all game worlds must have it.
Azar_of_Faerun 03-14-07, 01:27 AM	It's cheaper than FR
GothicDan 03-14-07, 07:07 AM	Very long and thisn't isn't the place but you name the reasons why they might not love each other...but hate? I don't think they 'hate' each other. Not being able to stand each other implies, to me, something immensely different than hate. Elves HATE orcs and drow, not dwarves. Put this way despite what people might believe there are some forms of bigortry that aren't just mindless... My Spanish teacher in high school gave me the best advice ever: "Choose your prejudices wisely." It's up to each person to decide what they feel is best in the world around them and to condone, reject, or try to change certain things about it. But right there are people who can be called bigots because of a the illegel immirgration or their jobs going overseas. While it isn't right it isn't instinctual either. Ultimately, living beings dislike whatever changes their lives in an unexpected way, because they knew how to exist in the previous environment. Your points do not really define bigotry so much as circumstances similar to predator-prey relations and competing species. Bigotry, as far as I'm concerned, is an actual moral or cultural belief which discredits an entity (race, religion, etc.) regardless of the environmental factors. That is, trying to appeal to a bigot's logic on their chosen topic of malignance by pointing out empirical truths observed about the target will literally not factor into their mindset at all. I never said bigotry was instinctive for that very fact: other than humans, no animals truly have religion or ideas of good and evil, right or wrong, or cultural standards. Bigotry is unique to humanity, and it's not always a BAD thing. A lot of people think that those who perform needless cruelty and disruptive violence are 'bad' or 'evil' people. That makes them bigots. I have no established moral structure myself. I just personally enjoy certain things more than others. Also I have seen dogs who are in a similar incident and are completely comforable with it. Dogs have a pack mentality he is probably uncomfortable because he was placed in a situration with a new pack leader. Nope. He does it only with the one man. It's because he's different, so he's being cautious; he doesn't snap at him or dislike him. He's just hedging his bets. The more perceptive and cautious a species is to changes in its environment, typically the more intelligent they are (which explains why, in general, predators are usually a little 'smarter' than prey). So, there's natural bias between Elves and Dwarves because they're different. What more, they are both highly ethical, traditional, and religious cultures, who in many ways uphold completely different dogmas, ways of living the good, proper life, and who often have radically different desires as to how to affect the world around them. Humans, by comparison, are not typically as culturally enmeshed, and have more varied beliefs and religious tendencies; so even if a Dwarf or Elf dislikes, say, a human from Sembia, that's no reason to say that they would dislike one from Shadowdale, because they recognize the two humans' unique differences, and are able to logically measure the humans' own paradigms against their own. That would mean they are NOT bigoted, since they would not be blindly obeying culture and faith, but rather assessing each situation anew with their core ethical concepts still in mind. Also the dislike between dwarves and elves date back futher then FRs. I didn't say it didn't. also while it is fine that it is in the Realms not all game worlds must have it. No. By default, all game worlds 'must' not have anything. They don't have to have magic, elves, dwarves, Warforged, continents, water, deities, religions, or sentient creatures. But obviously each of us is going to have a focus (sometimes more than one) of our most interest in various aspects of a setting. So retorting to Msatran's opinion about why he dislikes an aspect of Eberron with the equivalent of, 'Your opinion doesn't matter anyway" isn't a very respectful or logical point. That's the point I'm getting at: that some of us like or dislike things about various settings for reasons that are entirely idiosyncratic to ourselves. I highly doubt I'm the only one who's thought out societal and racial interactions, religious and historical influences, and native psychology and physics of the various settings with such detail. I saw logic in a great majority of 2E's arbitrary restrictions (alignments, classes, demihuman level limits, etc.), by setting a few ground rules for the nature of the setting; namely, accepting the fact that the PHYSICS of Faerun, for instance (which is just really a way to try to explain and predict how reality and nature will evolve) is inherently not the same as that of our reality. I can't apply this to Eberron specifically, since I know too little of it, but the mindset can be used for analyzing any setting. Each setting should be (to me, at least) consistent within its basic frame as defined (or at least strongly hinted at). In other words, if I put a ball on an inclined plane, and there's no indication that gravity's any different in a setting than it is on Earth, and there's no supernatural influence... And the ball rolls up... I'm going to be unimpressed. It seems like Msatran is getting at the idea that he thinks Eberron's social dynamic is somewhat unrealistic given what he knows about its core truths. Any setting should stick to those core pillars on which it was made, as far as I'm concerned, or it's only that setting in name. It may become something just as interesting and cool, but not in the same way it was before. Anyway, apparently two days without sleep and too much stress makes me verbose and didactic. I'm going to go eat breakfast and go to my quantum mechanics class now. Soon.
Derren S. 03-14-07, 08:51 AM	What I like from Eberron is that it was build intelligently and that it breakes up old fantasy steretypes (see the elves&dwarves above). Eberron is fresh and it makes sense.
MarkusTay63 03-14-07, 10:10 AM	Eberron is fresh and it makes sense.Meaning that FR is smelly and rotten, and is illogical? :confused: ;) :P Eberron was built with a world in mind. Not too many settings can say that. Greyhawk pretty much stayed the small corner of a single continent the entire time it had its place in the sun. Mystara grew from the same base, but it DID grow (from the original 'Known World' campaign). Besides giving birth to several new regions/Empires over its course it also evolved two seperate settings on the same planet - Red Steel and Hollow World. They were done well, but were add-ons. Ravenloft evolved from a SINGLE Greyhawk adventure to a demi-plane, and Dark Sun was just a little tiny corner of the world of Athas. Both Spelljammer and Planescape just 'connected-the-dots', so to speak. Linking various existing worlds together. I do have to give Planescape credit creating it's own distinctive region however (the Outlands); Spelljammer just never got that 'deep'. 3rd party settings and most novel worlds are usually confined to a single continent, and in most cases just a piece of it. FR evolved from a campaign of Ed Greenwoods. I get the feeling it began around the Dales/Cormyr region and expanded outward from there. It almost seems as if Anauroch was supposed to be 'the end of the known world', but then the Western Heartlands got added in as his campaign progressed. I could be wrong about that, but it does seem a logical progression from a central point out. He most likely had the Heartlands fleshed out when TSR bought it, with some notes scribbled in at the edges of the map as to what might be 'beyond'. Once TSR got a hold of it they went nuts, shoe-horning in things like Vassa and Damara, The Moonshaes, etc... eventualy leading to four other campaign areas that were only half-heartedly 'worked-in' to existing FR material. Still my favorite world, but if you look closely you can see the tattered edges where the world grew in fits-and-starts. Eberron was designed from the ground up as an entire planet, with certain concepts already in place for each region and an overall outline of the whole world given in the CS. That is why Eberron makes more sense, WotC took the time to step back and create 'the big picture' first, and THEN fill in the details. Although the overall flavor of the setting isn't my cup of tea, I still have to stand back and wistfully admire it's precise creation... and dream dreams of what FR might have been.... :(
Riodrian 03-14-07, 11:27 AM	Eberron is fresh and it makes sense. Not really. The Final Fantasy games have been out for quite some time. Eberron is about the same. ;) Seriously, though. I posted this in the In Praise of the Forgotten Realms pst so will repost it here: I like the Forgotten Realms because I picked up the initial releases. I had read the Dragon articles and "grew" with the setting. Much like newer players get to "grow" with Eberron. FR had it's problems, but overall it was a wonderous tapestry of a setting, where anything was possible. As far as it's downfall? Decades can do that. Personally, I blame the marketing side of the gaming industry for it rather than the designers. They pushed for quantity over quality. Comparing FR and Eberron is like trying to compare a 70's Show with a Modern one. The old one will always end up seeming cheesy because of how times have changed. I love the Realms for all they have given me and the memories of play there I cherish. I love Eberron for all it *will* give me and the memories of play there I *will* cherish. And my respects to all the forgotten settings that kept this hobby alive through the years, even if no one respects how innovative they were at the time.
Renvale999 03-14-07, 01:12 PM	Not really. The Final Fantasy games have been out for quite some time. Eberron is about the same. ;) Seriously, though. I posted this in the In Praise of the Forgotten Realms pst so will repost it here: I like the Forgotten Realms because I picked up the initial releases. I had read the Dragon articles and "grew" with the setting. Much like newer players get to "grow" with Eberron. FR had it's problems, but overall it was a wonderous tapestry of a setting, where anything was possible. As far as it's downfall? Decades can do that. Personally, I blame the marketing side of the gaming industry for it rather than the designers. They pushed for quantity over quality. Comparing FR and Eberron is like trying to compare a 70's Show with a Modern one. The old one will always end up seeming cheesy because of how times have changed. I love the Realms for all they have given me and the memories of play there I cherish. I love Eberron for all it *will* give me and the memories of play there I *will* cherish. And my respects to all the forgotten settings that kept this hobby alive through the years, even if no one respects how innovative they were at the time. Amen brother, amen.
johnkretzer 03-14-07, 04:05 PM	I don't think they 'hate' each other. Not being able to stand each other implies, to me, something immensely different than hate. Elves HATE orcs and drow, not dwarves. My Spanish teacher in high school gave me the best advice ever: "Choose your prejudices wisely." It's up to each person to decide what they feel is best in the world around them and to condone, reject, or try to change certain things about it. Ultimately, living beings dislike whatever changes their lives in an unexpected way, because they knew how to exist in the previous environment. Your points do not really define bigotry so much as circumstances similar to predator-prey relations and competing species. Bigotry, as far as I'm concerned, is an actual moral or cultural belief which discredits an entity (race, religion, etc.) regardless of the environmental factors. That is, trying to appeal to a bigot's logic on their chosen topic of malignance by pointing out empirical truths observed about the target will literally not factor into their mindset at all. I never said bigotry was instinctive for that very fact: other than humans, no animals truly have religion or ideas of good and evil, right or wrong, or cultural standards. Bigotry is unique to humanity, and it's not always a BAD thing. A lot of people think that those who perform needless cruelty and disruptive violence are 'bad' or 'evil' people. That makes them bigots. I have no established moral structure myself. I just personally enjoy certain things more than others. Nope. He does it only with the one man. It's because he's different, so he's being cautious; he doesn't snap at him or dislike him. He's just hedging his bets. The more perceptive and cautious a species is to changes in its environment, typically the more intelligent they are (which explains why, in general, predators are usually a little 'smarter' than prey). So, there's natural bias between Elves and Dwarves because they're different. What more, they are both highly ethical, traditional, and religious cultures, who in many ways uphold completely different dogmas, ways of living the good, proper life, and who often have radically different desires as to how to affect the world around them. Humans, by comparison, are not typically as culturally enmeshed, and have more varied beliefs and religious tendencies; so even if a Dwarf or Elf dislikes, say, a human from Sembia, that's no reason to say that they would dislike one from Shadowdale, because they recognize the two humans' unique differences, and are able to logically measure the humans' own paradigms against their own. That would mean they are NOT bigoted, since they would not be blindly obeying culture and faith, but rather assessing each situation anew with their core ethical concepts still in mind. I didn't say it didn't. No. By default, all game worlds 'must' not have anything. They don't have to have magic, elves, dwarves, Warforged, continents, water, deities, religions, or sentient creatures. But obviously each of us is going to have a focus (sometimes more than one) of our most interest in various aspects of a setting. So retorting to Msatran's opinion about why he dislikes an aspect of Eberron with the equivalent of, 'Your opinion doesn't matter anyway" isn't a very respectful or logical point. That's the point I'm getting at: that some of us like or dislike things about various settings for reasons that are entirely idiosyncratic to ourselves. I highly doubt I'm the only one who's thought out societal and racial interactions, religious and historical influences, and native psychology and physics of the various settings with such detail. I saw logic in a great majority of 2E's arbitrary restrictions (alignments, classes, demihuman level limits, etc.), by setting a few ground rules for the nature of the setting; namely, accepting the fact that the PHYSICS of Faerun, for instance (which is just really a way to try to explain and predict how reality and nature will evolve) is inherently not the same as that of our reality. I can't apply this to Eberron specifically, since I know too little of it, but the mindset can be used for analyzing any setting. Each setting should be (to me, at least) consistent within its basic frame as defined (or at least strongly hinted at). In other words, if I put a ball on an inclined plane, and there's no indication that gravity's any different in a setting than it is on Earth, and there's no supernatural influence... And the ball rolls up... I'm going to be unimpressed. It seems like Msatran is getting at the idea that he thinks Eberron's social dynamic is somewhat unrealistic given what he knows about its core truths. Any setting should stick to those core pillars on which it was made, as far as I'm concerned, or it's only that setting in name. It may become something just as interesting and cool, but not in the same way it was before. Anyway, apparently two days without sleep and too much stress makes me verbose and didactic. I'm going to go eat breakfast and go to my quantum mechanics class now. Soon. About the dog, and I do apologize about this but I am tired and well I want make this point so I will be blunt...are the other men having sex with your mother? If not then those other men aren't alphas for that pack. Also different dogs will react very differently in the same situration. Not everything follows a logical pattern. Especialy human(or sentient beings) behavoir. There is a reason why those are called soft science. Also you are right sentient being can make their own decisions about bigorty. So why can't dwaves and elves? In Eberron they have only really come in contact with each other within a few centuries...and their culture in Eberron are not as opposite...it really doesn't make sense. Also msatran point was completely baseless in that their is racial tensions(more so then in the FR as I can see) just not the traditional one. My main point is that just because a setting doesn't follow a 'traditional' fantasy setting sterotype especialy when it makes no sense then it is a opinion of igorance which as very little value. If you want to continue this conservation either PM me or start a thread as this has nothing to do with the point behind this thread. I will not respond to any more posts on this subject here.
GothicDan 03-14-07, 04:48 PM	While it may not be IN YOUR FACE with the point of the thread, I think the discussion is highly topical as far as game design methodologies go. In the end, the GOAL behind a setting defines what kind of world it will evolve to be. :) And, to me, giving specific examples of why we don't like aspects of Eberron, and why we do like some others, is far more sincere (and thus probably appreciated by Eberron fans) than simply drooling about how good it is. (Or any setting, for that matter.) Or maybe that's just me. I like to fully investigate every aspect of a topic, even the furthest of metaphorical branches. Eberron did a number of things in ways that reminded me of Planescape, which is my favorite setting. But at this point in time I sort of feel for it as I do the Matrix: it's got some good symbolism, special effects, good action and the like... But ultimately, it's all derivative in one way or an other (as everything is), which means it's far less cool and unique than a lot of people seem to think. But that doesn't bother me, really. I'm not a fan of uniqueness for its own sake. 'Unique' to me is an utterly neutral adjective that has no bearing on the quality of the subject. And as much as I love the Tel'Quessir, the 'gothic' Elves (ha) never really bothered me nearly as much as it did others. But after Planescape, any prime world setting is going to seem rather 'normal' in comparison.
Derren S. 03-14-07, 05:50 PM	Not really. The Final Fantasy games have been out for quite some time. Eberron is about the same. ;) In Eberron the use of magic does make sense. Ok, the final shape was inspired by real world machines but the possibilities of spells are used throughout the game world. Not to the full extend but it is at least something. In comparisation the realms is the traditional sword&sorcery world as everyone who has read LOTR or one of the countless fantasy books which is probably the reason for its popularity. But as you might have noticed, I favor settings which are comprehensible over settings which look nice. ANd final fantasy is just a collection of "cool" (in the mind of the designers) things whith no thought out history/society at all.
johnkretzer 03-14-07, 05:55 PM	While it may not be IN YOUR FACE with the point of the thread, I think the discussion is highly topical as far as game design methodologies go. In the end, the GOAL behind a setting defines what kind of world it will evolve to be. :) And, to me, giving specific examples of why we don't like aspects of Eberron, and why we do like some others, is far more sincere (and thus probably appreciated by Eberron fans) than simply drooling about how good it is. (Or any setting, for that matter.) Or maybe that's just me. I like to fully investigate every aspect of a topic, even the furthest of metaphorical branches. Eberron did a number of things in ways that reminded me of Planescape, which is my favorite setting. But at this point in time I sort of feel for it as I do the Matrix: it's got some good symbolism, special effects, good action and the like... But ultimately, it's all derivative in one way or an other (as everything is), which means it's far less cool and unique than a lot of people seem to think. But that doesn't bother me, really. I'm not a fan of uniqueness for its own sake. 'Unique' to me is an utterly neutral adjective that has no bearing on the quality of the subject. And as much as I love the Tel'Quessir, the 'gothic' Elves (ha) never really bothered me nearly as much as it did others. But after Planescape, any prime world setting is going to seem rather 'normal' in comparison. I can agree with that to point. And if I thought msatran hasn't just maybe at most skimmed the Campaign book and it was a honest complaint I propably would just have ignored it. But it wasn't really anything that was true about his dislike of it. As I pointed out his veiw of it being a 'Cosmopolitan Racial Harmony ' world is as completely false to me as somebody saying that the Realms {insert here any complaint about the Realms people make that is untrue} Hey I am, not going to make somebody love Eberron anymore then I would force anything else is based on preference on anyone else...I would like to maybe open their minds to it. But then again I am going to defend it against people ill informed attacks. Also the OP of this thread would like it to stay about praises and I tend to be polite and not go against the OP's intent especialy if it is stated.
miscellany 03-14-07, 08:38 PM	Yes let us get back to Eberron please! Thank you! :)
johnkretzer 03-14-07, 11:36 PM	Yes let us get back to Eberron please! Thank you! :) Was trying to.
Old Sparky 03-15-07, 03:45 PM	What I like best about Eberron is that it is a small, inconsequential campaign setting that does not intrude or invade my preferred campaign setting in any way, shape, or form. ...when Warforged start showing up in FR, let the hatred begin!! :fight!:
Eled_the_Worm_Tamer 03-15-07, 10:14 PM	What I like best about Eberron is that it is a small, inconsequential campaign setting that does not intrude or invade my preferred campaign setting in any way, shape, or form. ...when Warforged start showing up in FR, let the hatred begin!! :fight!: Ebberon people can acept the exitance of other settings without taking it as an insult and are able to be positave about them. ;) Ok, more seriously. The Dragon marked houses can be very cool, villans like the Dealkyr and Quori are truly terifying done right. Players can make a real mark as there are very few high level npcs in the setting. The politics are intresting, the new races flavorfull. Ultimately it lets you tell a very different set of storys from FR and that can be refreshing. Also it makes Gnomes scary. Not 'scared there cute gizmoe is going to go wrong (with hi-lareious results :rolleyes: ) ' but the cold numbing dread as you slowly realise there is someone who knows everything about you, every dirty secret and private shame, and that to this person you mean nothing, your life means nothing... and now he wants a favor, or he tells the world.
Daydreamer 03-16-07, 03:08 AM	Eberron leaves alot up to the dms descretion, so from a pcs perspective, there really is some fundamental mysteries there to be unlocked.
Francius 03-16-07, 07:31 PM	The thing I like about Eberron is that it's a small/medium sized world with continents closely positioned one to the other, interconnected with a weird (and out of place in a medieval fantasy setting) magical rail-train that makes travelling easy if not quite immediate.It's creation mythos story(Dragons who give birth to everything from the planet to its races) is somewhat banal and out of interest -- all in the name of ease of play. All the aforementioned things make such a setting easy to get into and time saving for the DM and the players.It all comes down to facilitate D&D play as opposed to the time and study needed to master the flavor of other campaign worlds in D&D's universe previously pubblished. That is why the Eberron world was introduced for, since the very beginning. All of the above facts are also the things that made Eberron a failure in drawing my attention. Eberron is basically an experimental setting pubblished by Wotc who saw the need of a change of pace after years of pubblishing worlds more akin to the classic high medieval fantasy. Eberron does not in any absolute way have that classical fantasy medieval respiration encountered in other fictional tales (LoTR,Ivanoe,Roland and the Paladins,Knights of the round,Beowulf) and to which the majority of medieval fantasy role players have grown attached. That is why I call it an experimental setting.And that's why the setting's sales in Europe are on the lower side. In its almost 5 years of existence Eberron has not received the attention the Realms and some other settings for that matter received during their same initial lifecourse (see Dragonlance,Greyhawk,Birthright,Planesca pe - to name a few) regarding the number of pubblished accessories,adventures and above all saga novels.
Zanan 03-17-07, 06:44 AM	... I'm very curious to find out what people's favorite, positive things about Eberron are here on the FR boards. What is Eberron? Lightning Rails? Hobgoblin nations? Drow (as in: Drow) riding scorpions? Semi-constructs roaming the streets? My inital thoughts were: setting-wise, here we have the Core stuff, FR and Earthdawn put together, a bit of Shadowrun flavor too, all neatly shaken, not stirred. Haven't seen anything to take that notion away, but as the saying goes: suum cuique.
Fabius Maximus 03-17-07, 09:25 AM	What is Eberron? Lightning Rails? Hobgoblin nations? Drow (as in: Drow) riding scorpions? Semi-constructs roaming the streets? My inital thoughts were: setting-wise, here we have the Core stuff, FR and Earthdawn put together, a bit of Shadowrun flavor too, all neatly shaken, not stirred. Haven't seen anything to take that notion away, but as the saying goes: suum cuique. Eh, you haven't even read the ECS yet, so you're in no position to talk. ;) Francius: The reason that Eberron is not doing well in Europe is not because it's not High Fantasy - well, at least not quite. High Fantasy appeals generally (!) to younger people, and there are less older RPG players in Europe than in the US. Eberron is better suited for mature people. The second reason is that there is more competition. D&D may have a leading position in the RPG market in the US, but it's different in Europe, where systems like Shadowrun and (in Germany) The Dark Eye have equal success. The third - and most important - reason is availability. I don't know how it is in other european countries, but in Germany, the one-time publisher of D&D - Amigo - was terribly slack with translating the books. Now that Feder & Schwert has taken over, the situation has become better. But it is rather sad that the translated versions of Races of Faerūn and Faiths & Pantheons only have become available recently here. The Eberron line has only three translated books available: the ECS and two adventures. Sharn - City of Towers will come out this month. Also, there are no translated novels available.
Dexter_Blacktyde 03-17-07, 12:57 PM	Eh, you haven't even read the ECS yet, so you're in no position to talk. ;) How is Eberron supposed to appeal to new players if not by its presentation? If that's the impression Zanan gets from what she knows about the setting, so be it - and if she doesn't like what she sees, she naturally won't purchase the book to find out where the perceived image of Eberron was misleading *shrug* Let me put it this way: If someone can't get used to the idea of halflings riding dinosaurs, it doesn't matter how well-explained it is - they won't want to learn more about halflings riding dinosaurs. Francius: The reason that Eberron is not doing well in Europe is not because it's not High Fantasy - well, at least not quite. High Fantasy appeals generally (!) to younger people, and there are less older RPG players in Europe than in the US. Hm... maybe. But where do you get this information? D&D may have a leading position in the RPG market in the US, but it's different in Europe, where systems like Shadowrun and (in Germany) The Dark Eye have equal success. Equal? I don't know about other European countries, but here in Germany D&D is rather an also-ran and not exactly what I'd call serious competition for The Dark Eye. (Shadowrun seems to be headed south, though.) The third - and most important - reason is availability. I don't know how it is in other european countries, but in Germany, the one-time publisher of D&D - Amigo - was terribly slack with translating the books. Now that Feder & Schwert has taken over, the situation has become better. But it is rather sad that the translated versions of Races of Faerūn and Faiths & Pantheons only have become available recently here. So very true. Little wonder that most players get used to US products at a comparatively early age - they'd be too old to hold the heavy hardcovers without help from their geriatric nurse when they finally get translated. DB
Burningspear 03-17-07, 02:03 PM	I think it sad that u have to put a "Praise Ebberon" thread into the Forgotten Realms corner, Go praise it in the Ebberon corner and leave this corner for the Forgotten Realms fans, this is just sick to me. :banghead: :ahem: :OMG!
Dexter_Blacktyde 03-17-07, 02:22 PM	You might want to reread the first posting... Jesus Christ... DB
Fabius Maximus 03-17-07, 02:34 PM	(Zanan, I think you should change your avatar... Everyone here is adressing you as a female. ;) ) How is Eberron supposed to appeal to new players if not by its presentation? If that's the impression Zanan gets from what she knows about the setting, so be it - and if she doesn't like what she sees, she naturally won't purchase the book to find out where the perceived image of Eberron was misleading *shrug* Let me put it this way: If someone can't get used to the idea of halflings riding dinosaurs, it doesn't matter how well-explained it is - they won't want to learn more about halflings riding dinosaurs. I think the way how Eberron is presented outside the books is lacking. It could be better. The only thing I saw aside from the website here is the booklet that came out before the ECS was published. And that thing wasn't exactly interesting. Despite that, I know that Zanan has access to an ECS. He could read into it if he wanted to. Hm... maybe. But where do you get this information? Stands to reason. D&D is was published here later than in the US. And I can imagine a lot of players quit playing when they grow older. Equal? I don't know about other European countries, but here in Germany D&D is rather an also-ran and not exactly what I'd call serious competition for The Dark Eye. (Shadowrun seems to be headed south, though.)Maybe. I wasn't that sure about The Dark Eye. So very true. Little wonder that most players get used to US products at a comparatively early age - they'd be too old to hold the heavy hardcovers without help from their geriatric nurse when they finally get translated. I only just read that Complete Adventurer was the last book translated into french.
Burningspear 03-17-07, 02:48 PM	You might want to reread the first posting... Jesus Christ... DB no need to put religious people long dead into your post to make a point, he has nothing to do with this... and i wont feel like rereading as the post itself annoys me already enough, have with this thread as u seem to enjoy it, i DONT. And even if it is just a copy of some other original thread, he could have done better... :)
Karsus the Mad 03-17-07, 03:11 PM	For someone who hates the thread, 2 posts seem two posts too many;)
Burningspear 03-17-07, 03:23 PM	True enough :plotting:, hmmz, just made a third :tie:
Dark Wizard 03-17-07, 03:57 PM	High Fantasy appeals generally (!) to younger people, and there are less older RPG players in Europe than in the US. Eberron is better suited for mature people. I'm sorry, but that sounded just as short-sighted and incorrect as "FR Rulez, Ebberon Drools!1!11!" statements. The second reason is that there is more competition. D&D may have a leading position in the RPG market in the US, but it's different in Europe, where systems like Shadowrun and (in Germany) The Dark Eye have equal success. Of course there's nothing else taking away from the RPing market here in the US.... The third - and most important - reason is availability. I don't know how it is in other european countries, but in Germany, the one-time publisher of D&D - Amigo - was terribly slack with translating the books. Now that Feder & Schwert has taken over, the situation has become better. But it is rather sad that the translated versions of Races of Faerūn and Faiths & Pantheons only have become available recently here. The Eberron line has only three translated books available: the ECS and two adventures. Sharn - City of Towers will come out this month. Also, there are no translated novels available. This I can agree with.
Khaelieth 03-17-07, 04:45 PM	Eberron gets more material. That's a good thing, I think. Not quite sure though. IT'S PADDY'S DAY! GO CELEBRATE!
johnkretzer 03-17-07, 06:58 PM	The thing I like about Eberron is that it's a small/medium sized world with continents closely positioned one to the other, interconnected with a weird (and out of place in a medieval fantasy setting) magical rail-train that makes travelling easy if not quite immediate.It's creation mythos story(Dragons who give birth to everything from the planet to its races) is somewhat banal and out of interest -- all in the name of ease of play. All the aforementioned things make such a setting easy to get into and time saving for the DM and the players.It all comes down to facilitate D&D play as opposed to the time and study needed to master the flavor of other campaign worlds in D&D's universe previously pubblished. That is why the Eberron world was introduced for, since the very beginning. All of the above facts are also the things that made Eberron a failure in drawing my attention. Eberron is basically an experimental setting pubblished by Wotc who saw the need of a change of pace after years of pubblishing worlds more akin to the classic high medieval fantasy. Eberron does not in any absolute way have that classical fantasy medieval respiration encountered in other fictional tales (LoTR,Ivanoe,Roland and the Paladins,Knights of the round,Beowulf) and to which the majority of medieval fantasy role players have grown attached. That is why I call it an experimental setting.And that's why the setting's sales in Europe are on the lower side. In its almost 5 years of existence Eberron has not received the attention the Realms and some other settings for that matter received during their same initial lifecourse (see Dragonlance,Greyhawk,Birthright,Planesca pe - to name a few) regarding the number of pubblished accessories,adventures and above all saga novels. Well maybe you should get your facts straight. 1) The continent are not close by each other and are not interconnected at all. 2)The lightening-rail is not as reliable as you seem to think. They also lopts of places where it doesn't go. Also at high enough level travel in any world becomes meaningless. 3) The creation mythos is just that a myth. To me this adds realism in that no one should know how it all started. Also it is alot more complicated then you seem to realize. 4)As a setting Eberron is much more complex to get into because it is very different(I am not saying better just different then the standard medieval setting) 5) Eberron has been out for about 3 years. In that time they have seen 11 soucebooks, a few adventures(which WotC has smartly gone away from publishing), a few novels that aren't world altering( which makes the setting more appealing to me atleast)
Fabius Maximus 03-17-07, 08:55 PM	I'm sorry, but that sounded just as short-sighted and incorrect as "FR Rulez, Ebberon Drools!1!11!" statements. Why? High Fantasy is easy to comprehend by default, because it builds upon Good vs. Evil. It's easier than the Noir features Eberron builds upon, for example. Most teenagers want action and cool stuff, and no elaboratly build plots with numerous turns and twists. Why do you think Drizzt is so popular with so many teens? Because he is a simple character who has many of the fears adolescents have, too. For a more blatant example, look at the protagonist of the Eragon novels. I'm not saying that all younger and older players are like this. But I think their numbers are big enough to make a difference in selling products. Of course there's nothing else taking away from the RPing market here in the US...Like what?
miscellany 03-17-07, 09:21 PM	I would put World of Warcraft at the front lines of competition, albeit from a computer game standpoint. In some ways WoW just does it better. ::::::::::::::: I can't wait to hear Miss M's next "Hey sweetie guess what we did in our Eberron game today!” story. Just a week or so ago she and her friends played a game of tag-and-you’re-dead with a Corpse Crab in the Mournlands. Something about healing magic not working in the Mournlands caught my attention and so I was treated to quite the tale of a group of adventurers that would totally side-track themselves and expose themselves much danger for what amounted to one full bag of coins. Good stuff. :)
GothicDan 03-18-07, 12:06 AM	Why? High Fantasy is easy to comprehend by default, because it builds upon Good vs. Evil. It's easier than the Noir features Eberron builds upon, for example. Most teenagers want action and cool stuff, and no elaboratly build plots with numerous turns and twists. WOW. High Fantasy is NOT easy to comprehend. Just look around these boards: people make blatantly ignorant assumptions about FR every day. To me, it's Eberron that seems to be a little too simple (not trying to be offensive; that's completely based on what I've heard), which would make sense given that it was created to attract new players to D&D, and that it was made purely in 3E, when the target audience age range was specifically lowered. Why do you think Drizzt is so popular with so many teens? Because he is a simple character who has many of the fears adolescents have, too. Oddly enough, most people who I know actually like the Drizzt books like him for the character's complexity (as they see it). For a more blatant example, look at the protagonist of the Eragon novels. Harry Potter was written by a European. I'm not saying that all younger and older players are like this. But I think their numbers are big enough to make a difference in selling products. I do agree that there is a major difference in consumers' desires at different ages. I just don't see one setting or the other catering more to one group or the other, either way.
johnkretzer 03-18-07, 12:28 AM	[QUOTE=GothicDan;11809589]WOW. High Fantasy is NOT easy to comprehend. Just look around these boards: people make blatantly ignorant assumptions about FR every day. To me, it's Eberron that seems to be a little too simple (not trying to be offensive; that's completely based on what I've heard), which would make sense given that it was created to attract new players to D&D, and that it was made purely in 3E, when the target audience age range was specifically lowered.[QUOTE] A trademark of High Fantasy is good vs evil. Not much room for gray areas. Eberron has a lot of grey area. Thus it is not that simple. I am not saying that FR don't have grey areas. Also it wasn't really created to attract new players as much as to attract player who have become bored with the FR. I mean look at some key features: 1: Not alot of high level NPCs...which is a point alot of players don't like about the Realms. 2:Novels don't = cannon...again alot of players dislike this about the Realms. 3:Timeline won't advance...again another big issue that players have with the Realms. Also it was made purely with 3rd edition was because it came out during third edition...(I really don't get your point here I mean FR was converted to 3rd). Again hate to disagree with you on this but the level of complexity as gone up considerably between 2nd and 3rd. Again I don't see how it is being targeted for a lower age group.
Dark Wizard 03-18-07, 12:29 AM	Why? High Fantasy is easy to comprehend by default, because it builds upon Good vs. Evil. It's easier than the Noir features Eberron builds upon, for example. Most teenagers want action and cool stuff, and no elaboratly build plots with numerous turns and twists. I understand this may be your opinion and personal preference, but I have to disagree with the generalization of your statement. I think you worked yourself into a logic fallacy; just because High Fantasy is 95% crap and Noir is 5% excellent does not mean that Noir's other 95% is exempt from being crap, it also doesn't it mean High Fantasy's 5% excellence evaporated into oblivion. Certainly most High Fantasy builds upon a trite rehash of the typical Good vs. Evil theme; however, that doesn't preclude the good examples of the genre from exploring that theme in an original, interesting, and meaningful way. I think your generalization, especially when applied to Forgotten Realms and Eberron, is crude to the point of being inaccurate. Why? I will start with a quote from the ECS's The Tone of Eberron intro section: "...The setting combines traditional medieval fantasy with pulp action and dark adventure...." That's essentially Eberron in a nutshell. I skimmed the intro section again and there is no mention of noir, aside from the movie inspiration sidebar, which contained a few noir movies. Not that any of this matters, noir ties closely to pulp. While there are true gems in the genre, typically found in the work of the genre originators and of genre masters who defined or redefined the genre, but there are just as many bad examples as other genres. In its development noir links closely to crime fiction, which had its basis in penny-dreadfuls (popular in the 1800s), a precursor to the classic pulps of the early half of the 20th century. They were inexpensive publications printed on pulp paper containing sensationalized stories, often-derivative works based on crime stories (glorifying the criminal), or rewrites of gothic novels. Pulp was basically the same thing just applied to more genres, such as fantasy, science fiction, war stories, adventure/explorer stories, and of course crime/noir/hardboiled fiction. Just a cursory browsing of noir, pulp or anything of that nature will reveal that the genre is as full of crap as any other, perhaps even more so due to its pulp nature. Do note that pulp is often a derisive word when used in a literary sense, beyond even specific genres like fantasy or science fiction. If anything, going by your generalization, Eberron is half-immature due to its combination of traditional medieval fantasy with the above genres - traditional medieval fantasy is essentially the same as the shallow derivative high fantasy you said meant to be easy on the younger audience. If you really think about it, it's even worse than it looks. Pulp/Noir/Hardboiled fiction was one of the main genres where the cool style-over-substance anti-hero emerged. If anything, pulp fits into what "Most teenagers want action and cool stuff, and no elaborately build plots with numerous turns and twists." Thus Eberron is mostly what you don't like, why are you even playing in the setting. ;) Now on to FR being High Fantasy, I've already pointed out why that's not a bad thing. To add to that, if you really examine FR you will notice a heavy swashbuckler and dark fantasy streak running through that crispy high fantasy coating. I will even go so far to say that it's as much sword and sorcery as high fantasy. At least one Realms author has used the term sword and sorcery directly in his responses on Candlekeep and numerous designers and authors are fans of Leiber, Howard, Lovecraft, Smith, Burroughs, and many others, firmly rooting FR in some pulp fiction, dark fantasy, and sword and sorcery themes due to their inspirations. So technically, FR is full of stuff you said you like and far less juvenile than you stated, going by your definitions. Why do you think Drizzt is so popular with so many teens? Because he is a simple character who has many of the fears adolescents have, too. For a more blatant example, look at the protagonist of the Eragon novels. Can you show that Eberron novels are different? You do realize that by being a D&D setting, Eberron is heavily marketed to the same adolescent consumer base as Core D&D and FR. The novels partly being a marketing tool coincide with that strategy. I'm not saying that all younger and older players are like this. But I think their numbers are big enough to make a difference in selling products. That is if age has anything to do with it at all. I think it's just a marketing problem. WotC poured money into Eberron here, to get the word out. From what some European players have said on these boards and others, I think Eberron just isn't marketed in Europe much. Also, we still don't know how well Eberron does in the US compared to Core and FR. Eberron could be doing better than FR, or it could be just getting by, taking up the minority of setting market share that WotC deems feasible for a secondary setting to FR. Not saying that's how it is, just the range that could exist in reality. Like what? Quite a number of d20 (non-WotC) settings (Warcraft, Everquest, Conan/Hyborian Age, Diamond Throne, Ptolus, Midnight, Freeport, Scarred Lands (Warlords?), WoT, Morningstar, Kingdoms of Kalamar, Blue Rose, Dawnforge). Shadowrun also exists here. L5R/d10/Rokugan has a decent following and the White Wolf WoD franchise is well represented. GUPRs, Merps are present. Warhammer Fantasy is popular from my experience. Not to mention the non-fantasy settings and systems and all the video game and novel cross promotion tie-ins.
Dexter_Blacktyde 03-18-07, 01:23 AM	A trademark of High Fantasy is good vs evil. Not much room for gray areas. IMHO that's first and foremost a problem with the system being D&D which paints a "black and white, ready to play, no deeper thoughts required" background. It's always been very combat-focused, and unfortunately the TSR settings that tried to explore other aspects of roleplaying didn't sell well enough. The FR weren't created with D&D in mind, they were adapted to the (sometimes overly simplistic) rules. But oh boy, what a fuss people made of "No alignment in Eberron! The revolution of roleplaying has begun!" Well, the concept has very, very rarely been copied by any other RPG in the past 30 years, and finally - finally! - WotC catches up, scraps alignment in Eberron, and all of a sudden it's more mature and has more gray areas? I don't like many aspects of the official FR because of their rather naive, sometimes even adolescent presentation, be it the superhero thing with high-level NPCs around every corner, be it the good-neutral-evil pigeonhole axis with no gray areas in-between, be it the clear-cut world in which everything is as it seems and in which most good is good for goodness' sake and most evil is evil for evilness' sake, be it the ease with which you can find out everybody's and their dog's alignment, be it the countless RSEs occuring once a year, be it the "way out there" nature of many ideas and concepts, be it the number of uninspired copy-and-paste RW analogies, be it the "Bigger, louder, faster!" way of thinking that pervades the material, and don't even get me started on the novels. But nobody forces me to play that way. Apart from the ruleset by which the setting has to abide, it has as much potential for mature plots and concepts as any other setting. It just depends on what you make of it. Sorry, I'm ranting a little. What I wanted to say is: By doing with Eberron what the competition has been doing with their settings for decades WotC creates the impression that the setting itself is more modern, more mature – whereas it could have easily come across as overall silly if it had been presented with the focus on combat, combat, combat, piling of treasures and magic items, and finally a little more combat. I was very surprised that WotC doesn't promote fast (and high) leveling and ridiculous amounts of wealth in order to sell more core splatbooks. I was very surprised that they finally let go of the holy alignment cow and even stress (or admit?) that they did it for believability's sake and to create a world in which real concepts feel actually, well, more real. I was very surprised that they don't try to sell mediocre novels on the grounds of "Who cares if they're good? Read them to find out about the metaplot!". I was very surprised that they don't even have a metaplot. I wasn't surprised at all, though, that they saw to it that Eberron has a place for everything that exists in core, whether it makes sense or not. Anyway, with any luck they're just testing if their audience is ready for this approach in order to incorporate it into 4E, and with some more luck the presentation of the 4E FR will be, well, more modern, more mature. DB
ORC_Paradox 03-18-07, 04:06 AM	What is Eberron? Lightning Rails? Hobgoblin nations? Drow (as in: Drow) riding scorpions? Semi-constructs roaming the streets? My inital thoughts were: setting-wise, here we have the Core stuff, FR and Earthdawn put together, a bit of Shadowrun flavor too, all neatly shaken, not stirred. Haven't seen anything to take that notion away, but as the saying goes: suum cuique. And that's what makes it awesome! (Love Earthdawn, FR and Shadowrun!) The point of this thread is to point out the good in Eberron that you could import to your FR games. If you don't like Eberron, fine, but you're going to miss out on some good ideas. Just don't polute this thread with your dislike. (It's also not a thread to bash FR.) (And there is a similar thread on the Eberron boards praising FR.)
Zanan 03-18-07, 06:20 AM	If you don't like Eberron, fine, but you're going to miss out on some good ideas. Just don't polute this thread with your dislike. (It's also not a thread to bash FR.) Ahem ... I was giving a neutral impression on how I perceive/d Eberron. No harm intended, nor polution ... It was for a reason that I wrote suum cuique.
ORC_Paradox 03-18-07, 06:30 AM	The second half of the message was more for those that come here intent to disrupt the thread. :D
Francius 03-18-07, 07:14 AM	Eh, you haven't even read the ECS yet, so you're in no position to talk. ;) How did you reach that conclusion? Zanan just wrote her impressions about the Eberron world drawn from whatever info she has and that perhaps includes some knowledge from the campaign setting.You can't just say she didn't read it as you cannot say she did. Francius: The reason that Eberron is not doing well in Europe is not because it's not High Fantasy - well, at least not quite. I think you have a misconception about what "high fantasy" is.I won't start now a discussion about what is considered high fantasy and what is not, so I'll just say to you that Eberron *is* high fantasy as much as the Forgotten Realms are. High Fantasy appeals generally (!) to younger people, and there are less older RPG players in Europe than in the US. Eberron is better suited for mature people. :rofl: Thanks for the morning laugh. Firstly:The Forgotten Realms world actually contains much more mature elements and stories than Eberron could even dream of possessing one day. Have you ever read the books about the Zhentarim,the Dragon Cult,the Drow,Drizzt do Urden,the Giants,or the Harper series? Come back at me with the same statement after you do. At the same time,Faerun can also be directed to a younger audience by the correct selection of material out of it. Secondly:It's false that most folk who play fantasy games are younglins here in Europe. The vast majority of rpgers I know here in Italy are of my age.When I visit hobby stores in general the clients I see inside also make the above sentence true. The role play acquaintanceships I have in France,Greece,Spain and England are again grown up peple and in general they claim the same thing about the rpgers age here in Europe. Bear in mind also that strangely all the persons I've encountered that play Vampire in specific (always here in Europe mind you) are all persons in their early twenties and above.No kids here. The only somewhat younger fellows I see involved in fantasy gaming are those of the Warhammmer miniatures fantasy battles.Just them. The second reason is that there is more competition. D&D may have a leading position in the RPG market in the US, but it's different in Europe, where systems like Shadowrun and (in Germany) The Dark Eye have equal success. Hmmm... I don't know if what you write is valid in Germany,but regarding Italy I'll tell you that different systems have the lead for different audiences in the hobby market:when it comes to miniature battle games,Warhammer is #1.When it comes to theatrical roleplay you can only talk about ''Vampire''.Yet when choosing to get involved with pure medieval fantasy tabletop Rpgs, the majority of persons still choose D&D;even more as of late with 3.5 than the last decade with 2nd edition. [The third - and most important - reason is availability. I don't know how it is in other european countries, but in Germany, the one-time publisher of D&D - Amigo - was terribly slack with translating the books. Now that Feder & Schwert has taken over, the situation has become better. But it is rather sad that the translated versions of Races of Faerūn and Faiths & Pantheons only have become available recently here. The Eberron line has only three translated books available: the ECS and two adventures. Sharn - City of Towers will come out this month. Also, there are no translated novels available. That ipothesis is perhaps the only one that can be taken somewhat as a serious argument eventhough I have to say that it depends on the audience. The majority of hobby stores here in Rome brings 3.5 Realms books both translated and in their original version. The 3.5 Realms books translated in Italian are the ones up to Power of Faerun.The next ones are up and coming. The 2nd edition Realms had a mere 15 books translated in Italian. Exactly,very few books. As of me,I never read a single Realms book translated in Italian.I always got the English version from my hobby store. My fellow party players never did too,and the same is true about the most people I know involved with the FR. That being said,I don't think that Eberron's failure here in Europe depends on the lack of books translated in the respective European language. As I stated quite a time before,when it comes to fantasy medieval games European audiences prefer to adventure in worlds that actually resemble (as much and as close as they can) the same very Europe in the middle and Dark ages. Hence the preference about stories like Knights of the round,the Bavarian knights,the Vikings,the Scottish highlands,the Celts,the Lord of the rings,Ivanoe,Beowulf and he who knows more can then add some. Faerun encompasses much much more pure fantasy medieval elements in its flavor than Eberron does.With its richly pantheon,its infinite sects,its particular geography,its varied and vast different cultures,its much more than any other world developped history,its directly drawn from European mythology creatures,Faerun simply possess much more stuff akin to a classic medieval world to dig and learn about than Eberron has or stands for. The Eberron world is different from what one would expect to be such an aforementioned setting. Eberron has magical rail trains,bipedal constructs resembling steam punk robots,factories,giant oval structures resembling fallen spaceships,folk dressing in a more modern style detached from the medieval era,halflings riding dinosaurs,an entire continent inhabited by nightmarish beings,another one solely by dragons,odd world geography(4 neatly separated continents)...I could go on and on but I think that I've rendered the idea. Make no mistake now:I'm not saying that Baker's world is a bad one,nor am I stating that a person with such preferences would not appreciate it,but when it comes down to pure Classical High Fantasy Medieval Gaming,worlds like the Forgotten Realms,Dragonlance,Greyhawk and Mystara will always prevail. Eberron will continue to possess its exclusive club of fans searching for something different than what I stated in the above paragraph's last sentence.
Francius 03-18-07, 07:40 AM	Well maybe you should get your facts straight. 1) The continent are not close by each other and are not interconnected at all. Maybe they are not interconnected but surely they are close one to the other: From Xendrik's northernmost location to Khorvaire it's only 1000 miles. From Xendrik's easternmost location to Argonnessen it's only 3000 miles. From Argonnessen to Sarlona the same exact distance. Here. (http://pages.videotron.com/sebby777/eberron_world.jpg) That's only natural.Eberron's planet measures only 15000 miles from east to west while Fareun counts 24000 miles for the same distance.Eberron is much smaller than our own planet Earth while Abeir Toril (the Forgotten Realms planet) is an Earth sized planet. 2)The lightening-rail is not as reliable as you seem to think. They also lopts of places where it doesn't go. Also at high enough level travel in any world becomes meaningless. I don't know if it's reliable or not.That's your problem Eberron dweller. ;) What I know is that it runs through many many miles over Khorvaire and since the vast majority of folk in the world aren't high level PCs able to use high powered magic to travel,such a train does serve them well. 3) The creation mythos is just that a myth. To me this adds realism in that no one should know how it all started. Also it is alot more complicated then you seem to realize. It still comes down to the fact that dragons gave birth to everything,which I find rather dull and out of much thought/originality. As a setting Eberron is much more complex to get into because it is very different(I am not saying better just different then the standard medieval setting) That doesn't necessarily make it more complex to get into.I seriously doubt Eberron will receive that much detail or even last over twenty years of lifecourse compared to the Forgotten Realms but as of now Faerun and the other continents have so much more history,description and material (counting the 2nd edition and the novels too) making your assertion hands down funny. Eberron has been out for about 3 years. In that time they have seen 11 soucebooks, a few adventures(which WotC has smartly gone away from publishing), a few novels that aren't world altering( which makes the setting more appealing to me atleast) That, I can agree with. The world's taste perhaps suits you more and that's why you choose it. Humankind is beatiful because it's diverse in both physiognomy and tastes. As for me,I 'll stick to my Forgotten Realms,thank you. It just tastes better. :D
Fabius Maximus 03-18-07, 09:35 AM	@Dark Wizard: I didn't want to say that High Fantasy is bad and Eberron is good. Far from it. I enjoy both settings. And yes, both settings can be played with more mature stories in mind. And another yes, it's my personal opinion that High Fantasy appeals more to a younger audience than Noir/Pulp. How did you reach that conclusion? :rolleyes: I know Zanan. As in person. :rofl: Thanks for the morning laugh. You're welcome. Firstly:The Forgotten Realms world actually contains much more mature elements and stories than Eberron could even dream of possessing one day. Have you ever read the books about the Zhentarim,the Dragon Cult,the Drow,Drizzt do Urden,the Giants,or the Harper series? Come back at me with the same statement after you do. It may be surprise you, but I read some of the books you mentioned. And to include Drizzt as made for the mature crowd shows that you don't have any idea about what you read. Salvatores books especially appeal to teenagers feeling misunderstood and outcast, because the 'hero' feels this way. Constantly. The overwhelming amount of action sequences and gore only helps. At the same time,Faerun can also be directed to a younger audience by the correct selection of material out of it.As I said above. Secondly:It's false that most folk who play fantasy games are younglins here in Europe. The vast majority of rpgers I know here in Italy are of my age.When I visit hobby stores in general the clients I see inside also make the above sentence true. The role play acquaintanceships I have in France,Greece,Spain and England are again grown up peple and in general they claim the same thing about the rpgers age here in Europe. Bear in mind also that strangely all the persons I've encountered that play Vampire in specific (always here in Europe mind you) are all persons in their early twenties and above.No kids here. I don't know about Italy. Maybe the scene there is smaller and older. The majority of hobby stores here in Rome brings 3.5 Realms books both translated and in their original version. The 3.5 Realms books translated in Italian are the ones up to Power of Faerun.The next ones are up and coming. The 2nd edition Realms had a mere 15 books translated in Italian. So, the italian publisher is faster when it comes to translating FR books. But I don't see how this affects Eberron. That being said,I don't think that Eberron's failure here in Europe depends on the lack of books translated in the respective European language.And that's based on what? English isn't exactly a favourite language in Germany and France. And what I know of Italy, it's not much different. I just checked amazon.fr. Only the ECS and one adventure books have been translated as of yet, and no novels. I don't know how it is with italian. But the fact that translations are so lagging has to have an impact on selling the material. You need a considerable grasp of the english language to read the original material. Not many germans, french and italians are able to do this, as far as I know. And the three countries are the biggest european markets, populationwise. (Leaving britain aside, for obvious reasons).
Francius 03-18-07, 10:37 AM	@Dark Wizard: I didn't want to say that High Fantasy is bad and Eberron is good. Far from it. I enjoy both settings. And yes, both settings can be played with more mature stories in mind. And another yes, it's my personal opinion that High Fantasy appeals more to a younger audience than Noir/Pulp. Again,you have an erroneous conception as of what High Fantasy is. This (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_Fantasy) might help you a bit Eberron may be a pulp noir fiction (as is formally stated in its Campaign setting) but is a high fantasy setting nonetheless. I know Zanan. As in person. Then you should have specified it because your answer was clearly incorrect and no clue about that fact could be deduced. It may be surprise you, but I read some of the books you mentioned. And to include Drizzt as made for the mature crowd shows that you don't have any idea about what you read. Salvatores books especially appeal to teenagers feeling misunderstood and outcast, because the 'hero' feels this way. Constantly. The overwhelming amount of action sequences and gore only helps. If your critique about the Drizzt books after you 've really read them (as you say) can be summed by the fact that they are addressed to confused teens, then really,you have no clue about what you 've read. The Drizzt books contain thoughts on the heavy subjects of freedom and interpersonal relations,life and death and do so on a serious and inspirational tone. The fact that even teens can read them doesn't say that they're not mature in tone or genre and in fact just about any product addressed to mature audiences can freely be addressed to teens with no problem at all.During the age of 14-19, a person is already considered to have reached a ripe status. I don't know about Italy. Maybe the scene there is smaller and older. Or perhaps from the fact that more FR books are being translated in the Italian language show that demand is greater and so the Role playing scene is greater and older/younger at the same time than over Germany. So, the italian publisher is faster when it comes to translating FR books. But I don't see how this affects Eberron. Did I say it does affect Eberron? :rolleyes: Dude you just awesomely showed you didn't read at all my previous post directed at you,or perhaps you did yet you didn't understand a single virgule... The reason I say that Eberron isn't succesfull here in Europe has nothing to do about lack of translation in the respective European langueges. Here,I'll post it again for your eyes only hoping that this time you'll get it right: That being said,I don't think that Eberron's failure here in Europe depends on the lack of books translated in the respective European language. As I stated quite a time before,when it comes to fantasy medieval games European audiences prefer to adventure in worlds that actually resemble (as much and as close as they can) the same very Europe in the middle and Dark ages. Hence the preference about stories like Knights of the round,the Bavarian knights,the Vikings,the Scottish highlands,the Celts,the Lord of the rings,Ivanoe,Beowulf and he who knows more can then add some. Faerun encompasses much much more pure fantasy medieval elements in its flavor than Eberron does.With its richly pantheon,its infinite sects,its particular geography,its varied and vast different cultures,its much more than any other world developped history,its directly drawn from European mythology creatures,Faerun simply possess much more stuff akin to a classic medieval world to dig and learn about than Eberron has or stands for. The Eberron world is different from what one would expect to be such an aforementioned setting. Eberron has magical rail trains,bipedal constructs resembling steam punk robots,factories,giant oval structures resembling fallen spaceships,folk dressing in a more modern style detached from the medieval era,halflings riding dinosaurs,an entire continent inhabited by nightmarish beings,another one solely by dragons,odd world geography(4 neatly separated continents)...I could go on and on but I think that I've rendered the idea. Those are the reasons I believe that made Eberron a failure in our continent.Not lack of translation. Got a clearer picture of my opinion now? And that's based on what? English isn't exactly a favourite language in Germany and France. And what I know of Italy, it's not much different. I just checked amazon.fr. Only the ECS and one adventure books have been translated as of yet, and no novels. I don't know how it is with italian. But the fact that translations are so lagging has to have an impact on selling the material. You need a considerable grasp of the english language to read the original material. Not many germans, french and italians are able to do this, as far as I know. And the three countries are the biggest european markets, populationwise. (Leaving britain aside, for obvious reasons). Well,Italians (as of the last three decades) show a great interest in studying and learning english and foreign languages in general and from what I know it's the same thing in Spain,France,Holland...heck even in Germany.Your experience perhaps dictates you otherwise... Later European generations (people born in the 80s) do possess a very good knowledge about one or more foreign languages, the one of them surely being english. Trully,I 've never met a single tourist here in Rome from the rest of Europe that did't have a grasp about the English language. And from my experience with D&D books I can state that one does not have to possess any elevated knowledge of the english language to read them.Three or maybe four years of study are more than enough. I could agree with what you say when talking about being able to read novels.Then yes,one should have a good knowledge of the english language to read and comprehend them but when it comes to rules book and regional sourcebooks involving Rpg mechanics then medium grasp of the language is usually enough.
Dexter_Blacktyde 03-18-07, 12:20 PM	Just don't polute this thread with your dislike. (It's also not a thread to bash FR.) Do you want a thread in which everyone praises what they like about Eberron and no one replies to the other because there's nothing to reply to? When someone points out that they like Eberron because "it does X better than other settings, and it does Y which no other setting does" (just a generalization), they're bound to receive replies *shrug* (By the way, Zanan didn't "pollute" the thread, he just said, "Not my cup of tea, but to each his own.") English isn't exactly a favourite language in Germany English isn't what in Germany? I beg to differ. Seriously, the only person I know who doesn't speak English is my grandmother. I'll admit that in order to delve into English RPG books, your grasp of the language has to be above average; but according to gaming stores' high sales of American books this doesn't seem to be a problem. After all, if you want to play an RPG that hasn't been translated into German (or just the campaign setting and little else), you depend on the original books - unless you're willing to wait several years until a fraction of the material finally gets translated. Then you should have specified it because your answer was clearly incorrect and no clue about that fact could be deduced. He has pointed out before that he knows Zanan in person. If your critique about the Drizzt books after you 've really read them (as you say) can be summed by the fact that they are addressed to confused teens, then really,you have no clue about what you 've read. I've read them, too, and I agree that they are light reading, specifically tailored to appeal to a younger audience. In fact I don't see much that sets them apart from the weekly dime novels the teenagers buy at the newspaper kiosk. Or perhaps from the fact that more FR books are being translated in the Italian language show that demand is greater and so the Role playing scene is greater and older/younger at the same time than over Germany. As Fabius has pointed out before, Amigo's translation philosophy has been a major part of the problem, and because they were so incredibly lazy, I expect the beancounters at Feder & Schwert to think, 'Well, since they haven't translated much, there clearly isn't much demand for translated material.' DB
johnkretzer 03-18-07, 12:30 PM	Maybe they are not interconnected but surely they are close one to the other: From Xendrik's northernmost location to Khorvaire it's only 1000 miles. From Xendrik's easternmost location to Argonnessen it's only 3000 miles. From Argonnessen to Sarlona the same exact distance. Here. (http://pages.videotron.com/sebby777/eberron_world.jpg) That's only natural.Eberron's planet measures only 15000 miles from east to west while Fareun counts 24000 miles for the same distance.Eberron is much smaller than our own planet Earth while Abeir Toril (the Forgotten Realms planet) is an Earth sized planet. I don't know if it's reliable or not.That's your problem Eberron dweller. ;) What I know is that it runs through many many miles over Khorvaire and since the vast majority of folk in the world aren't high level PCs able to use high powered magic to travel,such a train does serve them well. It still comes down to the fact that dragons gave birth to everything,which I find rather dull and out of much thought/originality. That doesn't necessarily make it more complex to get into.I seriously doubt Eberron will receive that much detail or even last over twenty years of lifecourse compared to the Forgotten Realms but as of now Faerun and the other continents have so much more history,description and material (counting the 2nd edition and the novels too) making your assertion hands down funny. That, I can agree with. The world's taste perhaps suits you more and that's why you choose it. Humankind is beatiful because it's diverse in both physiognomy and tastes. As for me,I 'll stick to my Forgotten Realms,thank you. It just tastes better. :D thousands of mile distance is not that easy to travel in Eberron even with elemental ships. There is also the fact that Argonnessen and Sarlona shores aren't that friendly to travelers. I also believed( maybe mistakenly) your comment indicated that the lightening rail connected then which is not true. Sure the lightening rail changes things in the movement of people, but it's existence doesn't mean people don't walk anywhere. Think of the effects on the railroad had on Europe. Actualy again the mythos is that Three Dragons did....the fact they are called dragons mean that it could just be what the first intelligent beings called them(which was dragons) Also just curious what do you like about the FR's creation myths? Send it to me a PM about it as it really has no bearing on this thread. While lets see here FR has been around much longer then you even seem to know( there is material dating back to 1st edition after all). Eberron has been around for 3 years. Your point being? Compared to Eberron's first 3 years to the FR 3 years there is alot more infomation on Eberron then the FR. And lastly as I stated I like both(yup WotC loves me as I buy both), but they really (as always) has to do the the DM and the players. If you had a choice to play in a FR game run by a really bad DM and a group of Drizzt clones or a Eberron game run by a DM you know will run a campaign you enjoy and players who are fun to play with which would you play in? I just think maybe you should try a taste of Eberron before condemming it. Just a thought.
GothicDan 03-18-07, 01:01 PM	While lets see here FR has been around much longer then you even seem to know( there is material dating back to 1st edition after all). Eberron has been around for 3 years. Your point being? Compared to Eberron's first 3 years to the FR 3 years there is alot more infomation on Eberron then the FR. There were hundreds of pages of FR written most likely even before TSR ever bought it.
Zanan 03-18-07, 02:22 PM	And there was me thinking that WizO_Paradox was after me with his mighty scythe :D. Reading what goes on here, some people should really sit back, take a breath and relax somewhat. As for Fabius and myself, he does indeed know me in person*, but what he did not knew at the time of posting was that I actually spent a few days skipping through the pages of some Eberron books. *He's got a hefty geas upon his person (otherwise known as: I DM one of his characters :evillaugh) so asking him more questions will most likely yield no further information. Unless you pay him well enough so we can share the money :plotting:)
Dark Wizard 03-18-07, 04:02 PM	@Dark Wizard: I didn't want to say that High Fantasy is bad and Eberron is good. Far from it. I enjoy both settings. And yes, both settings can be played with more mature stories in mind. And another yes, it's my personal opinion that High Fantasy appeals more to a younger audience than Noir/Pulp. No worries. Of the various posters here, I see you often put forth a more balanced view of many topics than most. However, whatever personal experiences formed your opinion, the actual history, intent, and current incarnation of noir/pulp show that it is just as much adolescent escapism and wish fulfillment as high fantasy, if not more so. So much so that the trend of popularized anti-heroes based heavily on the noir/pulp "attitude" is now frequently parodied for being cliche and shallow.
johnkretzer 03-18-07, 08:33 PM	There were hundreds of pages of FR written most likely even before TSR ever bought it. Sure there was....and who know how many of those saw print at all? I mean one of the very first supplements was the Moonshaes which Ed didn't have in his orginal world. Also all the infomation about the Realms is meaningless. I like the Realms alot back when there was just the lone box set. I also liked Eberron based on what I read of the ECS. As a matter of fact as they added more it has become slightly less appealing to me.
Old Sage 03-18-07, 09:10 PM	Ed's Moonshae Isles were a cluster of many small Hebrides-style islands. Ed discussed a little about his original LeGuin-styled islands here:- http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Castle/2566/jg-moonshaes.htm
Old Sparky 03-19-07, 12:32 AM	Ebberon people can acept the exitance of other settings without taking it as an insult and are able to be positave about them. ;) Hey, I was being as positave as I could. I don't take the exitance of settings other than FR as an insult, and the best thing I have to say about settings like Eberron is that they aren't bleeding into the one I like. I hated how some settings in the past would intrude on the Realms (like Ravenloft, Spelljammer, and Planescape) in small, sinister ways.
Bolithio 03-19-07, 01:20 AM	NEXT. :bored:
miscellany 03-19-07, 01:55 AM	I hated how some settings in the past would intrude on the Realms (like Ravenloft, Spelljammer, and Planescape) in small, sinister ways. Word, my hommie. Now Eberron has that task, though it has been changed to the effect that any new rule, PrC, class, etc... in D&D will be found in Eberron. Speaking of Eberron Miss Miscellany played in her regular Eberron game today and survived to tell tales of cool Alchemical items that nobody could identify but that are just really very dangerous and prone to explode like pretty fireworks when you throw them all in a bag and set it on fire (their tactic to delay a fiery living spell creature of some kind that was chasing them down a mine shaft in the Mournlands). That and they made out like bandits, traveling back and forth on a daily basis into the Mournlands via an elemental landcart (powered by a bound and controlled earth-elemental) that makes very good speed and leaves no tracks! The lesson I took away from her recounting of events from today that I will use in my FR game is that merchants and NPC retainers are very useful to PCs. As many FR fans know Faerūn is crisscrossed with countless merchant and caravan trails; it’s mercantilism that keeps many a city and city-state in FR afloat in otherwise hostile and deadly territory. That’s one aspect of the Realms I will be sure to illustrate for my players. :D
Fabius Maximus 03-19-07, 08:13 AM	As for Fabius and myself, he does indeed know me in person*, but what he did not knew at the time of posting was that I actually spent a few days skipping through the pages of some Eberron books.Okay, I withdraw my statement. ;) *He's got a hefty geas upon his person (otherwise known as: I DM one of his characters :evillaugh) so asking him more questions will most likely yield no further information. Unless you pay him well enough so we can share the money :plotting:) Now, that's an intriguing thought there... :D @Francius: Just calm down. I read your posts. It's just that I don' share your opinion because it doesn't seem to be logical to me. If you want to believe it, fine. There's no need to repeat yourself. @Dexter: I know quite a few people who enjoy fantasy literature and play RPG's. Some of them refuse to touch english books, because their grasp of the language is not enough to understand the texts. Others do read english books, but prefer the translated versions. Even my sister, who is quite anglophil and speaks english better than me, doesn't read english books if she can avoid it. Sure, many of the more educated german youngsters can speak english well enough. But they are self-educated. The english we learn in schools just isn't sufficient. The barrier to start reading books in english for recreation is too high for most.
Dexter_Blacktyde 03-19-07, 09:55 AM	Maybe we were talking about different things. Of course I know roleplayers who have to suffer through the books. They do it anyway to get the information they're looking for, not for entertainment - but they get by. A small percentage may even refuse to read English books, but not because they wouldn't understand them, but because they don't enjoy dealing with foreign languages - which they've probably hated since school. (Maybe most of them play DSA? ;)) I was just saying that I don't know a single roleplayer who wouldn't be able to read and understand English supplements. By the way, I think the degree of English we learn in school is perfectly sufficient for reading English books, at least if it's just about getting information. Back in the eighties, I started reading them exclusively after only two years of English, and I don't consider myself a genius. (I was about to bring up the self-education myself. It's a very nice side effect, really. ) DB
The Ubbergeek 03-19-07, 11:24 AM	DSA is THE Fantasy rpg in Germany and probably german-speaking nations. Even more than D&D - and often as disliked, I heard. And well... If you think the fans of Eberron dislike Forgotten Realms... You never spoke to the Greyhawkians. :P Quite a few of those guys are grognards who still recent forgotten realms for taking the spotlight and 'contribuating to GH's death' or 'being a pale copy of the one true classic setting'. :rolleyes: :P
Dexter_Blacktyde 03-19-07, 03:24 PM	DSA is THE Fantasy rpg in Germany and probably german-speaking nations. Even more than D&D - and often as disliked, I heard. It is indeed - although for very different reasons ;) DB
The Ubbergeek 03-19-07, 08:09 PM	It is indeed - although for very different reasons ;) DB Not to derail the topic, but as we had a Fighting Fantasy books version of it in the french-speaking world, I am a bit curious.... Is it seen as too simple or something?
Fabius Maximus 03-19-07, 08:20 PM	Not to derail the topic, but as we had a Fighting Fantasy books version of it in the french-speaking world, I am a bit curious.... Is it seen as too simple or something? I don't know about the recent 4th edition of DSA, but the former editions were rather complicated. Not as complicated as D&D, but still. The overall problem is the world DSA is set in. It's just too small, and heavily metaplotted. (Is that a word?) @Dexter: When I started reading english novels for fun, I was in 12th grade, and english was my second foreign language. That resulted in 5 years school english, and I had a rather hard time understanding the books I read. The reason could have been that I started with Terry Pratchett, though. ;)
Dexter_Blacktyde 03-19-07, 09:42 PM	Not to derail the topic, but as we had a Fighting Fantasy books version of it in the french-speaking world, I am a bit curious.... Is it seen as too simple or something? Quite the contrary. As Fabius said, the mechanics are pretty complex (although DSA heavily emphasizes the setting over the mechanics, which is why there are nowhere near as many technical rulebooks as in the case of D&D), but every square mile of the map has been extensively elaborated upon. Despite being only a year older, DSA's setting is decidedly more detailed than the Forgotten Realms. There's no place whatsoever that hasn't been given several in-depth writeups, down to the smallest backwater hamlet, so there's very little leeway for creative GMs. When I started reading english novels for fun, I was in 12th grade, and english was my second foreign language. That resulted in 5 years school english, and I had a rather hard time understanding the books I read. The reason could have been that I started with Terry Pratchett, though. ;) As I said, we've been talking about different things. You were talking about reading English novels for fun, I was talking about reading English roleplaying supplements for information. You don't have to be able to tackle Shakespeare to pull that off ;) DB
miscellany 03-20-07, 02:17 AM	UGHHH. Eberon. Please, talk about Eberron. Gasp....dead. :(
Francius 03-20-07, 02:57 PM	He has pointed out before that he knows Zanan in person. That's the same exact phrase I already adressed to Fabius. How was I supposed to know he knew Zanan since not a single clue about it could be drawn from his answer, which clearly appeared to me at fault. If you still can't get it... I've read them, too, and I agree that they are light reading, specifically tailored to appeal to a younger audience. In fact I don't see much that sets them apart from the weekly dime novels the teenagers buy at the newspaper kiosk. Here we just see displayed your very own opinion about the Drizzt books. I can understand that there is a small group of people that actually don't much like the drow hero (or even dislike him);and that is fine.On the other hand I also have to say that this is the first time I read a critique about Salvatore's iconic saga that much exagerated,over-the-top and ultimately so dim-witted. You 're basically daring to put on the same grade one of fantasy's literature finest with weekly dime novels... Well, I guess I have no cause to complain since I would probably have similar opinions about the fantasy books you read. As Fabius has pointed out before, Amigo's translation philosophy has been a major part of the problem, and because they were so incredibly lazy, I expect the beancounters at Feder & Schwert to think, 'Well, since they haven't translated much, there clearly isn't much demand for translated material.' Amigo,as I understand, is a company that translates books over there in Germany.This bears no relevance as to why the Eberron world has flat out failed compared to the Forgotten Realms in the *rest* of Europe. Since even yourself stated that there's no problem with lack of comprehension of the English language in Germany,then lack of translation surely can't be the problem. I don't know about Rpg business in Germany but I don't think that absence of translation of book material is relevant to a campaign setting's success or not. The Forgotten realms sell more in Europe simply for the reasons I exposed to Fabius.Go read them again.
Francius 03-20-07, 04:02 PM	thousands of mile distance is not that easy to travel in Eberron even with elemental ships. There is also the fact that Argonnessen and Sarlona shores aren't that friendly to travelers. I also believed( maybe mistakenly) your comment indicated that the lightening rail connected then which is not true. Did you read my previous answer to you at all? I admitted my mistake (the train in fact does not link all of the four continents) but then I added that it covers much of the traveling surface of Khorvaire. I possess both the campaign setting and the Khorvaire sourcebook so I know exactly the train's course and its stops...and how it looks. Sure the lightening rail changes things in the movement of people, but it's existence doesn't mean people don't walk anywhere. Think of the effects on the railroad had on Europe. Did I say that the people of Khorvaire don't walk anymore? The train however covers much distance and it's an essential way of travelling for the folk over there. Actualy again the mythos is that Three Dragons did....the fact they are called dragons mean that it could just be what the first intelligent beings called them(which was dragons) Also just curious what do you like about the FR's creation myths? Send it to me a PM about it as it really has no bearing on this thread. Again,from the sourcebooks and novels of Eberron I have read, in the chapters concerning creation mythos of the world,the text explicitly states that the planet and its inhabitants were created by Dragons. Yep,you read it right. Dragons:huge ancient winged reptilian creatures. Dragons plain and simple without alluding to anything else. While lets see here FR has been around much longer then you even seem to know( there is material dating back to 1st edition after all). Eberron has been around for 3 years. Your point being? Compared to Eberron's first 3 years to the FR 3 years there is alot more infomation on Eberron then the FR. You couldn't be more incorrect and imprecise about what you say here. In its starting three years of official existence within the AD&D procuct line (1987-1990) as a campaign world,the Forgotten Realms received 19 novels,1 campaign set boxed set and 20 campaign expansions/adventures (even more I think). That's quite the equal amount of material that Eberron received from 2004 till the present day of 2007. And that without counting some of the FR adventures pubblished for the 1st D&D edition, before the "old grey box" had even come out. And lastly as I stated I like both(yup WotC loves me as I buy both), but they really (as always) has to do the the DM and the players. If you had a choice to play in a FR game run by a really bad DM and a group of Drizzt clones or a Eberron game run by a DM you know will run a campaign you enjoy and players who are fun to play with which would you play in? That question is too generic and too basic to even be considered a valid one. Of course I'd choose a better DM and party to play with, even if that meant gaming in a world other than the Forgotten Realms.But that doesn't include Eberron exclusively.In fact I would prefer playing in any other world be it Greyhawk, Dragonlance, Mystara, Birthright over an awfully run FRealms game. That is just a no-brainer of a question. I just think maybe you should try a taste of Eberron before condemming it.Just a thought. Truly,you didn't read at all my previous post. By now I possess the CS,three sourcebooks and three novels of the Eberron line.I 've read them and I 'm not talking without having an experience first. And regarding my personal opinion of the world itself, I wrote: Make no mistake now:I'm not saying that Baker's world is a bad one,nor am I stating that a person with such preferences would not appreciate it,but when it comes down to pure Classical High Fantasy Medieval Gaming,worlds like the Forgotten Realms,Dragonlance,Greyhawk and Mystara will always prevail.
Dexter_Blacktyde 03-20-07, 05:59 PM	How was I supposed to know he knew Zanan since not a single clue about it could be drawn from his answer, which clearly appeared to me at fault. If you still can't get it... It could be easily deduced from: (Zanan, I think you should change your avatar... Everyone here is adressing you as a female. ;) ) Despite that, I know that Zanan has access to an ECS. He could read into it if he wanted to. By the way, that was before you referred to Zanan as a female. So one could assume you might not have read the thread thoroughly enough. On the other hand I also have to say that this is the first time I read a critique about Salvatore's iconic saga that much exagerated,over-the-top and ultimately so dim-witted. It's good to see you're still your charming and diplomatic usual self. You 're basically daring to put on the same grade one of fantasy's literature finest with weekly dime novels... One of fantasy literature's finest? Well, well... could you name a literature critic who lists Salvatore with Tolkien, Leiber, Williams, Martin, Rusch, Kerr or Hobb in the same breath? (Anticipating your next possible argument, I'd like to point out that the sales figures aren't important. Con Air was a blockbuster, too - it was still a horrible movie.) Well, I guess I have no cause to complain since I would probably have similar opinions about the fantasy books you read. What makes you think so? Amigo,as I understand, is a company that translates books over there in Germany.This bears no relevance as to why the Eberron world has flat out failed compared to the Forgotten Realms in the *rest* of Europe. Nobody claimed it did *shrug* Since even yourself stated that there's no problem with lack of comprehension of the English language in Germany,then lack of translation surely can't be the problem. That people are able to read English RPG products doesn't mean they all like it. For most people reading products in their native language is much easier and more comfortable - they're more willing to delve into a book if it doesn't take twice as long to read because they may have to read slowly and with a dictionary at hand. The lack of translations and most roleplayers' ability to read English supplements form a vicious circle, but there's no need going into that. I don't know about Rpg business in Germany but I don't think that absence of translation of book material is relevant to a campaign setting's success or not. To a certain extent it is. People who have a hard time understanding English - those with bad grades in the subject, for example - and who therefore hate reading English texts may refrain from trying out a product that hasn't been translated. If the language of the product wasn't an issue, why do you think publishing companies bother translating English products at all? And if a product line was available in both languages, what do you think most people will pick - their native language or a foreign one? The Forgotten realms sell more in Europe simply for the reasons I exposed to Fabius.Go read them again. That would make sense if we were to assume that you are right beyond all doubt. You seem to think you are, but please note that some of us may not share your assessments. DB
Stigger 03-21-07, 12:44 AM	Zanan's a guy? Wow, totally missed that one. Sorry if I offended you by referring to you as a woman all this time... But yeah, as fascinating as all this is, I think Miscellany wants the thread back. ;)
miscellany 03-21-07, 02:47 AM	Stigger hit the nail on the head. Dexter and company could SO totally take this to PMs....if they were kind. :( :::::::::::::::::::::::: Another Eberron lesson: Manifest Zones One could use the manifest zone concept to totally dress up the area around the ruins/big black sphere of nothingness/shadow are of Tilverton. Just use Eytan Bernstein's (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/frcc/20070228) excellent advice for playing a Knight (of Cormyr) and you could have a blast gallivanting about the region, slaying priest of Shar, Shadovar and worse; all drawn to what's left of Tilverton. :D
Francius 03-21-07, 03:37 AM	It could be easily deduced from: By the way, that was before you referred to Zanan as a female. So one could assume you might not have read the thread thoroughly enough. It's good to see you're still your usual neglectful self. That response to Zanan might simply meant the two had talked in the past and perhaps Fabius misstook him for a girl too,still that doesn't give a clue about whether the two knew each other in person or not - yet alone Fabius knowing about such a speficic detail of Zenan:that he didn't read the Eberron campaign setting at all. :rolleyes: It's good to see you're still your charming and diplomatic usual self. And it's sad to see that you're still the same hard-headed person who thinks his opinion is the ultimate absolute.Too bad it still gets blown out of the water as exagerated,over-the-top and ultimately dim-witted. [One of fantasy literature's finest? Well, well... could you name a literature critic who lists Salvatore with Tolkien, Leiber, Williams, Martin, Rusch, Kerr or Hobb in the same breath? (Anticipating your next possible argument, I'd like to point out that the sales figures aren't important. Con Air was a blockbuster, too - it was still a horrible movie.) The names of fantasy writers you mention as good literature are simply based off your personal opinion. My favourites are Salvatore,Tolkien, Moorecock, Weiss, Hickman, W.King, Brooks, Athans, K.Britain,R.Howard. I see we don't have the same preferences so you can't say that Salvatore isn't worth to be mentioned in the same list with them.Your personal opinion, as you may wrongly believe, is not to be universally accepted. Name a literature critic?Are you insane?How am I supposed to know the critic's names?Are they famous or well-known or something?Get a clue,pal. I could name you quite a few readers' names,message boards and products ratings by customers to support my argument however.And actually people's preference is the one that matters and the one I trust the most - not a silly remark made by an unknown literature critic. That's why I always go to the "future releases" message board when I need to read a preview about a fantasy book I'd like to buy. What makes you think so? The fact that your critic about the Drizzt book was so exagerated,over the top and dim-witted. Couldn't you guess or are you simply playing it fake dumb? Nobody claimed it did *shrug*. Oh, just re-read what you wrote here: As Fabius has pointed out before, Amigo's translation philosophy has been a major part of the problem, and because they were so incredibly lazy, I expect the beancounters at Feder & Schwert to think, 'Well, since they haven't translated much, there clearly isn't much demand for translated material. Didn't you claim that translation is a problem? :rolleyes: That people are able to read English RPG products doesn't mean they all like it. For most people reading products in their native language is much easier and more comfortable - they're more willing to delve into a book if it doesn't take twice as long to read because they may have to read slowly and with a dictionary at hand. The lack of translations and most roleplayers' ability to read English supplements form a vicious circle, but there's no need going into that. Again you say that lack of translation is a problem that concerns a setting's success or not here in Europe where we have many nations speaking different languages. Well,if you 're insisting that much I 'll concede to you that it may be one of the reasons (but not the main) Eberron failed in Germany but I 'll also inform you that 70% of its material here in Italy *has* been translated (just like the FR material) and it still fails to draw attention from Rpgers. So the reason I believe that puts Eberron on the lower scale of sales and preference here in Europe remains the same: As I stated quite a time before,when it comes to fantasy medieval games European audiences prefer to adventure in worlds that actually resemble (as much and as close as they can) the same very Europe in the middle and Dark ages. Hence the preference about stories like Knights of the round,the Bavarian knights,the Vikings,the Scottish highlands,the Celts,the Lord of the rings,Ivanoe,Beowulf and he who knows more can then add some. Faerun encompasses much much more pure fantasy medieval elements in its flavor than Eberron does.With its richly pantheon,its infinite sects,its particular geography,its varied and vast different cultures,its much more than any other world developped history,its directly drawn from European mythology creatures,Faerun simply possess much more stuff akin to a classic medieval world to dig and learn about than Eberron has or stands for. The Eberron world is different from what one would expect to be such an aforementioned setting. Eberron has magical rail trains,bipedal constructs resembling steam punk robots,factories,giant oval structures resembling fallen spaceships,folk dressing in a more modern style detached from the medieval era,halflings riding dinosaurs,an entire continent inhabited by nightmarish beings,another one solely by dragons,odd world geography(4 neatly separated continents)...I could go on and on but I think that I've rendered the idea. To a certain extent it is. People who have a hard time understanding English -those with bad grades in the subject, for example - and who therefore hate reading English texts may refrain from trying out a product that hasn't been translated. If the language of the product wasn't an issue, why do you think publishing companies bother translating English products at all? And if a product line was available in both languages, what do you think most people will pick - their native language or a foreign one? I adressed this quote of yours in the above paragraphs. Again,I don't know if you translate many Wotc Rpg books in Doitch or not,but here in Italy both the Forgotten Realms and Eberron have the 70% of their products' line translated in Italian and I know that even in England (no translation needed there for the obvious reason) Eberron is on the small scale of sales/preference too. That would make sense if we were to assume that you are right beyond all doubt. You seem to think you are, but please note that some of us may not share your assessments. DB In fact I said when presenting you with my opinion that it was purely mine and solely drawn from my experience with Rpg gamers and friends I have all over Spain, England, Greece, Holland, France and Belgium.
Zanan 03-21-07, 07:25 AM	Zanan's a guy? Wow, totally missed that one. Sorry if I offended you by referring to you as a woman all this time... But yeah, as fascinating as all this is, I think Miscellany wants the thread back. ;) Zanan is most surely not a guy, just look at the pic! As for Fabius ... just a pawn to spread some rumours and promote Eberron :evillaugh
Fabius Maximus 03-21-07, 08:21 AM	Why I'm suddenly feeling like someone put a leash on me? ;)
Stigger 03-21-07, 08:38 AM	Sure thing... I'll take you're word for it, given that I presume you know what you are better than anyone else. Take that to mean what you will... :D
Khaelieth 03-21-07, 08:18 PM	In Norway, nothing's been translated since 1e. We're hardcore.
Dark Wizard 03-21-07, 08:35 PM	In Norway, nothing's been translated since 1e. We're hardcore. Damn, that is hardcore.
Kid SixXx 03-22-07, 07:49 AM	Well... I DM an Eberron game & while I enjoy the drastic difference in culture between Eberron elves and FR elves, the fact that there aren't any subraces sorta annoys me from a mechanical perspective. I know some folks find a challenge in overcoming the stat penalties & other hinderances to the min/max build, but the Valenar horse culture doesn't quite mesh with the stats of the standard High Elf, nor do those stats make the Aerenal as mystical as I'd like them to be (after all, these are the elves that fought off the dragons in the setting). So I house ruled sub-races into my campaign but don't readily identify them as sub-races. The standard Khorvaire Elf (ie. the ones that belong to House Thuranni or House Phairlan, or is otherwise not Aereni or Valenar) are statistically High Elves, while the Valenar are Wood Elves, and the Aerenal are statistically Grey Elves. I've imported Grey Orcs from FR to serve as the bulk of the Gatekeeper druid sect so that I don't screw over players that want to be orcish druids.
Kid SixXx 03-22-07, 12:07 PM	Well, I tried to right this ship but apparently there was some soccer game between Italy and Germany that I was unaware of which has riled up the folks in both countries. I take it that Francius won't be welcomed at Dexter Blacktyde's house on PayPerView party weekends.
Eled_the_Worm_Tamer 03-22-07, 12:24 PM	In prase of Ebberon: Sprawling off topic argumenst and snarky barbs dint treated to take over there version of this thread. ;)
Stigger 03-22-07, 12:24 PM	So I suppose an agreement to disagree is out of the question then, and we should rename the thread post haste?
The Ubbergeek 03-22-07, 12:35 PM	Kind of weird Eberron would not sell in France.... Our cousins dig those less traditional fantasy things, outrageous stuff.
Eladrinstar 03-22-07, 12:42 PM	Without D&D Eberron would collapse. There would be no reason for it's existance. FR, however, would stubbornly march on, its fanbase and it's novels would carry on.
Bluenose 03-22-07, 01:00 PM	I like the atmosphere. I like the geography. I like the Quori and the Daelkyr. I like freaky half dragon elf liches who run a religion of their own.:) And I like goblins. Hurray for the Lhesh Haruuc!! ;)
Stigger 03-22-07, 01:04 PM	Doubt the novels would unless there was a open license granted for it... would be a huge infringement on someone's intellectual property. Fan fic is a little different though I think, usually.
Fabius Maximus 03-22-07, 01:26 PM	I like the atmosphere. I like the geography. I like the Quori and the Daelkyr. I like freaky half dragon elf liches who run a religion of their own.:) And I like goblins. Hurray for the Lhesh Haruuc!! ;) Hell, yeah. Eberron is the one place where you can play a civilized goblinoid character.
Kid SixXx 03-22-07, 01:31 PM	Hell, yeah. Eberron is the one place where you can play a civilized goblinoid character. Yes, if you see an orc druid from the Gatekeeper sect you should buy that guy an ale, not raise a sword against him.
Dexter_Blacktyde 03-22-07, 02:11 PM	Well, I tried to right this ship but apparently there was some soccer game between Italy and Germany that I was unaware of which has riled up the folks in both countries. Yes, you did try to get it back on course. Sorry for the derailment, everyone! Without D&D Eberron would collapse. There would be no reason for it's existance. I'm not so sure. Granted, I don't know enough Eberron players to have an educated opinion about them, but give the setting a little more time. I remember when FASA closed its doors and thus put an end to Earthdawn (which was doing all right IIRC - not too good, not too bad). All of a sudden countless fans crawled out from under their rocks, cried out, wrote petitions, got very good fansites going, kept the game alive - and today there are even two Earthdawns. You never know. DB
Stigger 03-22-07, 06:09 PM	Just a word of advice Francius, using words like 'finish babbling' aren't conducive to putting things to a rest. ;)
Francius 03-22-07, 06:20 PM	Just a word of advice Francius, using words like 'finish babbling' aren't conducive to putting things to a rest. ;) Ok Stigger, i edited my post then. :)
Khaelieth 03-22-07, 08:58 PM	Hell, yeah. Eberron is the one place where you can play a civilized goblinoid character. Which to us more stubborn, old, non-WoW players isn't actually a good thing. I've got a very traditional view of goblins, they poke animals with sticks. They're not leprechauns. Leev meh lokky charrms aloohn!
Karsus the Mad 03-22-07, 09:01 PM	Well, to be fair, any race that evolved (rather than was created as is such as elves) poked animals with sticks at one point or another;)
miscellany 03-22-07, 10:11 PM	I shot the WizO's a line but they haven't responded...so I found if one populates one's ignore list with the right names....well this thread looks like it's about Eberron! Cool. :sigh:
ORC_Paradox 03-22-07, 11:44 PM	And this would be my second reminder to keep it on topic. Further derailments will lead to warnings.
Stigger 03-23-07, 12:17 AM	I always liked the idea of goblinoids reaching cultural enlightenment and joining the larger community of the world... same with orcs really. Don't necessarily like the way Eberron managed it, but it is a bit overdue instead of treating them as mere fodder. Given the choice I prefer the Eldathian method of it, but it does make for an interesting twist at least. No idea how WoW managed it though, never got into the series in the slightest.
Khaelieth 03-23-07, 04:40 AM	I think Eberron is good for the not too traditionalist players. If you want something new, you play Eberron.
Fabius Maximus 03-23-07, 06:52 AM	Which to us more stubborn, old, non-WoW players isn't actually a good thing. I've got a very traditional view of goblins, they poke animals with sticks. They're not leprechauns. Leev meh lokky charrms aloohn! World of Warcraft? What's that? ;) Orcs I can see as the ultimate barbarians (which they still are in Eberron, though not as feral.) Goblinoids, especially Hobgoblins, are more 'behaved' in my book. Their militaristic nature hints at the capability to make thorough plans and rolling with them.
Altar_Boy 03-25-07, 07:36 PM	I like the ability to do any kind of them in Eberron: Cthulic, technopunk, medevial, explorer, etc. It's nice to have a wide variety of adventures without planeshifting to new material worlds every few levels.
tallric_kruush 03-25-07, 08:24 PM	Without D&D Eberron would collapse. There would be no reason for it's existance. FR, however, would stubbornly march on, its fanbase and it's novels would carry on. I couldn't disagree with this more. You're not a fan. (I guess I shouldn't assume, but the blunt nature of your post makes it seem that way.) Okay, no big deal. There are, however, a lot of us out there who would keep Eberron alive. If Wizards closed up shop right now (which is what I assume you mean by "without DnD"), it would hurt both games. FR has been around longer, so it would probably fair better; but don't think for a second there aren't plenty of Eberron lovers out there fully capable of keeping their game alive. I play both settings, and like each for what it is. Throwing in my :twocents: on the topic, I love Eberron for how different it is from the Realms. In recent years, I've found myself tiring of the FR canon. I personally can't (or maybe just don't want to) keep up with the hundreds of novels that all seem to try to one-up one another with some earth-shaking story that changes Faerun forever. I tire of the super high-level nature of the setting. I tire of the thousand-and-one subraces. For those reasons, Eberron came just at the right time for me. I love that a 5th to 6th level character in Eberron is really making a name for himself. That makes sense, of course, since there aren't a bunch of Elminster types running around with enough power to change the face of the world on a whim. I like that pretty much anyone that has achieved epic levels in recent history probably died in the Last War. It makes it mean more if/when my guy reaches Level 20, since the mayor of the next town over isn't Ftr 19/ Expert 1. That mayor likely doesn't even have a single level in a character class! He doesn't need them, after all, to be mayor of some po-dunk farming village. I love that, in Eberron, dwarves are dwarves, halflings are halflings, and elves are elves (unless, of course, they're drow:), who live thousands of miles away and feature one heck of a backstory). So, all the things that I needed a break from in the FR--Eberron fixed those things for me. And it was on the Eberron boards that I found the needed encouragement to pull the FRCS off the shelf, again. I have decided to start fresh with the Realms. I'm resetting the setting to 1372 DR. None of the novels set after that date will have any impact on my Realms. The stories our characters live (and maybe a few of NPCs of my choosing) will be the only ones of major import and impact. A canon reset is something I'd love to see from Wizards in the future, but I won't hold my breath. Just as good, and perhaps better in some ways, would be to "freeze" canon as is. Some great things have happened in the life of the Realms, and I wouldn't really want to undo it all. Well, I've really rambled along a lot longer than I intended, and many will likely pass right over my post now without even reading it. That's okay. Thanks to those who "soldier" through my sometimes long-winded posts.
Dexter_Blacktyde 03-26-07, 12:43 AM	Very nice post, tallric. I praise Eberron for exactly this reason: That WotC has tried different things, that they seem to work, and most of all, that they get lauded by WotC's very own clientele. Since Eberron's arrival the criticism of the Realms has become more noticeable and more substantiated (people have a direct in-house comparison), and maybe, just maybe WotC gets the broad hint...? But they won't stop the metaplot. The novels are too profitable. DB
BigJroni 03-28-07, 11:07 PM	Why do I like Eberron? I like Eberron because it is a new setting and one I can keep up with. I find it hard to keep up with the Forgotten Realms because there is so much history behind it, so many supplements and novels. Often I feel that people who talk about Forgotten Realms seem to have greater interest in the history and will pick apart adventures to show how they do not fit. To try to fit into such an established setting as someone fairly new to Dungeons & Dragons is intimidating at best. I like the Forgotten Realms because of the rich history and mix of cultures. In the Forgotten Realms it isn't as hard to find an interesting culture, a reason behind a ruin, or an established charachter. The only problem with this is that the huge amount of information makes it hard to remember everything.
Bolithio 03-29-07, 01:30 PM	:zzz: :zzz: :zzz: Perhaps its time for a "Praise of Forgotten Realms" in the Eberron Forums.
Dexter_Blacktyde 03-29-07, 02:09 PM	As miscellany pointed out in her original posting, the thread you suggested exists already. DB
ORC_Paradox 03-30-07, 03:27 AM	Perhaps its time for a "Praise of Forgotten Realms" in the Eberron Forums. There already is one: http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=802016 Created the same time this thread was made. And the point of the threads are for fans of that particular world (Here it's FR) to point to things they like about the "other" world. If it's nothing, then there's no need to post.
The Ubbergeek 03-30-07, 10:24 AM	The problems with such threads is that, being set in another camp of fanboys, they are to flammers what lights are to moths - a target. Make such a thread praising Eberron or FR in the Greyhawk forum, and see with the grognards there...
Bluenose 03-30-07, 12:45 PM	The problems with such threads is that, being set in another camp of fanboys, they are to flammers what lights are to moths - a target. Make such a thread praising Eberron or FR in the Greyhawk forum, and see with the grognards there... I'm not sure that's necessarily the case. The Eberron boards version of this thread didn't have huge amounts of hostility to FR - though it went thoroughly off topic at one point into a discussion of goblin reproduction rates :confused: I suspect it would be worse in a Greyhawk forum.
GothicDan 03-30-07, 09:30 PM	Having just read the first page of the other thread, I saw just as much if not more flaming for FR as there was for Eberron on this one.
Fabius Maximus 03-31-07, 08:59 AM	Having just read the first page of the other thread, I saw just as much if not more flaming for FR as there was for Eberron on this one. Really? You must have a rather crooked vision to see more than two or three postings that are negative to the FR in that thread.
Renvale999 03-31-07, 09:36 AM	After posting only on the first page and then reading the sub-sequent posts, I'd have to say this thread has been somewhat civilized compared to previous threads I've seen on this topic (except for the dexter/francius bar room brawl). One thing I love about Eberron is the dragonmarked houses. I love the idea of a fighter having a spell-like abilities because of his lineage. And the fact that the spells in question aren't all that game breaking. Part of me wants to some how import the dragonmarked houses into Forgotten Realms, but I think that would kill their flavor a little since I would have to fudge some stuff to get them in. But all and all, I've played both, DM'd both, and I enjoy Forgotten Realms a little more, but I know eventually it will be equal once more stuff for Ebberon comes out. We'll see.
GothicDan 04-01-07, 02:58 AM	Really? You must have a rather crooked vision to see more than two or three postings that are negative to the FR in that thread. Are we even reading the same thread, here? I saw almost nothing but directly or indirectly negative posts about FR at best on the first page of that thread. The fact that Kid SixXx himself had to step in to actually defend FR says a lot.
miscellany 04-01-07, 04:36 AM	Pshaw, Daniel. Those posts contained nary a flame on the first page (even by my quick-to-get-peeved-by-the-words-of-idiots standards). Overall they did a good job, I think. Good enough to inspire, you might say. ;) ::::::::::::::::::: Miss Miscellany will sadly not be able to game in Eberron tomorrow, but she did have this to say about last weeks game: Schemas are cool! :D
GothicDan 04-01-07, 01:29 PM	Flames - not so much. Negative comments? Oh, quite a bit. At least as many as were stated here. I got quite interested in what 'the other side' thought, and was happy to find that FR fans aren't the only grognards around.
The Ubbergeek 04-01-07, 05:08 PM	Flames - not so much. Negative comments? Oh, quite a bit. At least as many as were stated here. I got quite interested in what 'the other side' thought, and was happy to find that FR fans aren't the only grognards around. Again, the 'grognards' stereotypes is more on the Greyhawk dudes.
GothicDan 04-01-07, 05:57 PM	Okay. And it can be applied to just about anything else, too.
Kid SixXx 04-02-07, 09:45 AM	The fact that Kid SixXx himself had to step in to actually defend FR says a lot. Well, I fully support not liking something based on substantive matters, but I had to torpedo the hate based on supposition and misinformation. I would like to think that folks are familiar enough with my reputation to know that I am all about fair play, even when I am in total disagreement.
GothicDan 04-02-07, 11:20 AM	I'm just glad you agreed that there WAS a lot of negative comments being made on the thread, Kid. :) As I said, I do sneak about on the Eberron forums fairly often - at least once a day, usually. I really am intrigued about various aspects of the world... But I don't even have the time to game in the Realms as it is, let alone trying to pick up another fantasyscape to delve into!
Lykor 04-07-07, 11:58 AM	What I like about FR is that it is VAST. Something like 70% of the game world is relatively unexplored to the general Faerun dwelling population, and is likely to stay that way. Given the sheer number of cultures, civilizations, cults, and general migrations into the Realms over a significant time period, there's a sizable amount of stuff to keep anyone occupied for the immediate future. FR isn't the oldest of the DnD settings (Greyhawk and Dragonlance are both older), but it has the largest number of published materials. These vary in scope (novels about main characters, one-of novels, source books, history books) and generally flesh out the peoples and cultures. Greyhawk has a little (ie the generic stuff), Dark Sun and Ravenloft are discontinued, and Dragonlance has books about the same 8 or so people. From what I have read about Eberron, it is conforming more to the Greyhawk model than the FR model, making it appear both smaller and less clear. Although the high-level NPCs of Faerun can get ridiculous at times, it provides something that the moderately leveled Eberron lacks: a power curve. One of the first rules that PCs should learn is that no matter how bad-@*# you are, there's always someone nastier with a complete disregard for sentient life who is willing to curb stomp you. Eberron lacks that. Eberron does provide a steampunkian experience, but the idea of warforged (and the half-golem template) as a playable race seems like a bad idea, due to lore issues. A Frankenstein-esque NPC is a good idea, a race of them is not.
Deekin 04-07-07, 02:18 PM	\ Although the high-level NPCs of Faerun can get ridiculous at times, it provides something that the moderately leveled Eberron lacks: a power curve. One of the first rules that PCs should learn is that no matter how bad-@*# you are, there's always someone nastier with a complete disregard for sentient life who is willing to curb stomp you. Eberron lacks that. Eberron lacks high level HEROS. There's always someone nastier than you. Dragons, Dalkyer, Rashaka rajahs, Titans, The Quori, ect. Eberron does provide a steampunkian experience, but the idea of warforged (and the half-golem template) as a playable race seems like a bad idea, due to lore issues. A Frankenstein-esque NPC is a good idea, a race of them is not. (and the half-golem template) = MM2, not Eberron. Warforged have existed for 12 years at most, and are sentient creatures with souls, trying to find their purpose in life. How they were created is a mystery even to House Cannith, the people who manufactured them. They also are a minority race, with, I believe, less that 3,000 still living in Korviare.
Dark Wizard 04-07-07, 08:02 PM	They also are a minority race, with, I believe, less that 3,000 still living in Korviare. Though you have to hand it to those guys, they sure have become the poster children of Eberron, for better or worse depending on ones perspective.
bobobravado 04-08-07, 09:01 PM	to me eberron's pluses are: -dragonmarked houses -racial disparity (Droam & Darguun as acknowledged nations) -decent new races (warforged, shifter & changling, i don't really care for the kalashtar) -fresh concepts (airships, lightning rail adjoining nations, artificer, action points) i'm not really a powergamer and personally i find levels 4-7 to be the funnest, because you can still take a bump and are not too powerful. i mean come on , i read some of these threads and the levels of some of these characters are ridiculious 20-30...wow not very exciting.. that's why FR has lost a lot of it's luster with me.... that mystery of the moonsea book was just awful...$30 down the crapper. everyone is just too powerful... i feel the same way with the FR novels..i used to be a huge FR supporter now, not so much new writers and new direction is needed or else FR will just be like the dinosaurs...extincted!!!!!! i still hold out for a good FR product(i haven't seen the cormyr book), if the undermountain book sucks.... all is lost!!!
The Ubbergeek 04-09-07, 01:22 AM	FR will not be lost for a bad book. It ahd not killed GH, so there. Enjoy and cheerish the setting.
Francius 04-09-07, 04:59 PM	Warforged have existed for 12 years at most, and are sentient creatures with souls, trying to find their purpose in life. Well, that is somehow incorrect. Though warforged have free will, whether they have a soul is not known with certainty; they can be resurrected by spells designed to restore human souls to life, but, unlike humans, never remember anything of their experience in the afterlife after such an event. They have been in the world long before their arrival to Khorvaire, so you can't say that they have existed for only 12 years. How they were created is a mystery even to House Cannith, the people who manufactured them. They also are a minority race, with, I believe, less that 3,000 still living in Korviare. The giants of Xen'drik created their own versions for their wars against the Quori, because the warforged are immune to many Quori tactics. However, according to Tales of the Last War, the giants invented the warforged, after which the Quori stole the secrets of their creation from the dreams of giants and created their own. Either way, the secrets of warforged creation seem to have originated on the continent of Xen'drik. The ability of ancient Xen'drik docents to meld with modern-day warforged supports this theory. The existence of Xulo, a huge and powerful warforged found in Xen'drik, also supports this theory. Hope this clarifies some things.
Francius 04-09-07, 05:01 PM	Though you have to hand it to these guys, they sure have become the poster children of Eberron, for better or worse depending on ones perspective. ...and they (warforged) are still out of place in a classic medieval fantasy world (like many things of the Eberron setting).
Francius 04-09-07, 05:27 PM	That's why FR has lost a lot of it's luster with me.... that mystery of the moonsea book was just awful...$30 down the crapper. Judging a setting's success line just from the perspective of a book you don't like is somewhat...ehm...superficial. Besides, I love the moonsea book because it had been a very long time span since I had gotten the last Moonsyte material in my hands (from the early 2nd edition days), yet alone an adventure taking place in that region. everyone is just too powerful (in the Realms)... I hear this statement repeated so often, it just gives me the nausea at this point. You find that something is too powerful in the FR setting? Solution: Scale it down or remove it from your campaign. :OMG! There. It's that simple. This is the first line you'll read when you get introduced to the Abeir-Toril world: it's your world, so feel free to mantain or completely discard some portion or some parts of the setting you don't like.Shape it as you better see that it fits you tastes. The Forgotten Reaalms are so huge that some changes are due to occur from campaign to campign.It's only normal. i feel the same way with the FR novels..i used to be a huge FR supporter now, not so much Get a hold of yourself and get back in the line, soldier. :) new writers and new direction is needed or else FR will just be like the dinosaurs...extincted!!!!!! Hmm... The Forgotten Realms extinted like the dinosaurs... :rofl: This guy speaks about the Realms in such an exagerated way, it makes me think he's an Eberron troll in disguise... :rolleyes: Jokes aside, the Realms are running as good as ever in these days, and as I see it the only thing they are lacking are campaign expansions about Toril's other continents. Albeit everything, Faerun has so much more related content awaiting to see print in the 3.5 table, that we'll be having material (just for it) dishing out for at least another 20 years. I still hold out for a good FR product(i haven't seen the cormyr book), if the undermountain book sucks.... all is lost!!! Ok, so you didn't like the Moonsea book. The previous material in the line; were them to your liking or not? I have never found a Realms' Rpg book entirely bad to my taste in the 3.5 edition - at least not one that would make me write such a negative statement. This year, we're gonna get both the undermountain and the grand history sourcebooks. What is there to not be happy about? Oh, and by the way: I really hope everyone had a nice Easter and a very relaxing time for a vacation during these holy days. :D
ElberethSilverleaf 04-09-07, 06:10 PM	And that's what makes it awesome! (Love Earthdawn, FR and Shadowrun!) The point of this thread is to point out the good in Eberron that you could import to your FR games. If you don't like Eberron, fine, but you're going to miss out on some good ideas. Just don't polute this thread with your dislike. (It's also not a thread to bash FR.) (And there is a similar thread on the Eberron boards praising FR.) So is this a thread created to get FR folks to go out and buy Eberron products? (ducking my head before things get thrown at me) From reading this thread I gather that Eberron is physically a smaller world. How much smaller? Is the gravity less or the same? If it is the same, how is this explained away? (I understand that it may not have been addressed yet) By the way Paradox, I'm a Shadowrun lover too, just thought the game mechanics were very clumsy.
Francius 04-09-07, 06:25 PM	From reading this thread I gather that Eberron is physically a smaller world. How much smaller? Is the gravity less or the same? If it is the same, how is this explained away? (I understand that it may not have been addressed yet) The Eberron planet's circumference (meaning the distance from east to west if you measure it by unfolding the globe on a flat map) measures 16.500 miles. The Abeir-Toril (Forgotten Realms) planet measures 24.000 miles for the same distance.It also has more continents that are (both in number and size) greater than Eberron's. Not a clue about the planet's force of gravity (if diverse) can be drawn from the campaign setting book.
ElberethSilverleaf 04-09-07, 06:43 PM	I'm not criticizing the setting, just curious as to the explanation. I'm one of those people who can't stand "because it's magic" as the cause. I like explanations that are logical within the game...higher metal content in the planet, magic could be a factor, etc.
johnkretzer 04-10-07, 02:45 AM	I'm not criticizing the setting, just curious as to the explanation. I'm one of those people who can't stand "because it's magic" as the cause. I like explanations that are logical within the game...higher metal content in the planet, magic could be a factor, etc. I am not a expert but there is several possiblities if I remeber correctly... 1)The planet doesn't have the same gravity. It shouldn't matter unless a creature come from a heavier gravity world which would mean he would gain bonus. A good souce for this Dragonstar. 2) The planet has the same gravity because it is made of denser materials...I might be missing the correct term here, but it isn't only the size but the weight of the object that determines gravity.
johnkretzer 04-10-07, 03:10 AM	Well, that is somehow incorrect. Though warforged have free will, whether they have a soul is not known with certainty; they can be resurrected by spells designed to restore human souls to life, but, unlike humans, never remember anything of their experience in the afterlife after such an event. They have been in the world long before their arrival to Khorvaire, so you can't say that they have existed for only 12 years. Um...humans don't remember anything after those spells either. Also they can be reincarnated as well. Though something can't be reincarnated as a warforged. The fact is thankfuly they don't answear that question and leave it up to the DM. I am personaly of the camp that states that warforged are imbued with the souls of people who have died. Actualy the Xen'drik warforged to not share the same degree of sentience as do mordern day warforged. If you look at the history you'll realize that while House Canith might not know about the process as such they have improved upon it greatly. The warforged that are presented as a playable race are relativily new.
Kid SixXx 04-10-07, 07:13 AM	So is this a thread created to get FR folks to go out and buy Eberron products? No, it's to lessen the general conception that the supporters of both settings are pretty much two armed camps that oppose the other. I'm one of those people who can't stand "because it's magic" as the cause. You want logic from a game where people can spontaneously generate fire and throw it at someone they don't like? Oddly enough that makes sense, given that even magic follows certain formulae and rules.
The Ubbergeek 04-10-07, 07:37 AM	I must say - I have read some Eberron books a bit in the last 24h and lo, I must admit - there is some great ideas in there, to be honest. Not sure I'd play in it yet, but you could do like what many, many rpers do with GURPS books.... Buy or loans them for he fluff and ideas, and steal them for your own setting, homebrew or official. ;) (who use a GURPS sourcebook to play it? :P ;) :D )
bobobravado 04-12-07, 01:18 PM	The previous material in the line; were them to your liking or not? some of the previous stuff was very good..Silver Marches, Unapproachable east, and most recently was Waterdeep... sorry about sounding so dramatic.... francius you are correct i'll probably purchase undermountain & history of the realms & possibly the cormyr book(i've always been a big fan of cormyr & shadowdale). I really miss the old content of "Elminster Ecology" books for example and REGIONAL SOURCEBOOKS WITH INFORMATION, not adventures. I am disappointed in wotc productes within the last couple years( except Salvatore books w/ Jaraxle & waterdeep book). and venting my frustrations. i am glad of the praise eberron & praise forgotten realms posts....because i like them both. alot of the stuff posted is too much politic partisanship...can't we all just get along... just kidding!!!!!!
Francius 04-12-07, 04:56 PM	I am personaly of the camp that states that warforged are imbued with the souls of people who have died. Have you ever heard anything about Full-Metal Alchemist? The protagonist brother's soul gets trapped in such a construst (heavily resembling a warforged -a metallic version of it) to avoid dying after his body is slain. Here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fullmetal_Alchemist) Actualy the Xen'drik warforged to not share the same degree of sentience as do mordern day warforged. If you look at the history you'll realize that while House Canith might not know about the process as such they have improved upon it greatly. The warforged that are presented as a playable race are relativily new. As you said, House Canith practicaly copied the recipe to create them (a picture of a Canith warforged factory appears later in the campaign setting book). This does not erase the fact that warforged existed since the time of giants on the continent of Xendrik -way more than 12 years ago from the current Eberron year (albeit that the warforged that are presented as a playable race are relatively new). Anyhow, whatever. I 'm going back to my Spellfire book (new edition) reading . Later.
Francius 04-12-07, 05:18 PM	Some of the previous stuff was very good..Silver Marches, Unapproachable east, and most recently was Waterdeep... Agreed. sorry about sounding so dramatic.... No harsh feelings. Now back in the line, soldier. Shadowdale is under Zhentarim attack (for the second time). Francius you are correct i'll probably purchase undermountain & history of the realms & possibly the cormyr book(i've always been a big fan of cormyr & shadowdale). I got the Cormyr book but I still haven't had a chance to read more than 10 pages. Too much involved in a new building project in Rome's periphery. Undermountain & History of the Realms are a no-miss. I really miss the old content of "Elminster Ecology" books for example and REGIONAL SOURCEBOOKS WITH INFORMATION, not adventures. I am disappointed in wotc productes within the last couple years( except Salvatore books w/ Jaraxle & waterdeep book). and venting my frustrations. i am glad of the praise eberron & praise forgotten realms posts....because i like them both. alot of the stuff posted is too much politic partisanship...can't we all just get along... just kidding!!!!!! I am a fanboy of everything 2nd edition Realms. Elminster's ecologies were a diamond piece of Realmslore (I simply love the hill of lost souls description). Another all-time favourite of mine is "Aurora's whole Realms catalog". I can e-mail it to you if you want as I purchased it in both book form and then in PDF form, from Rpg now - it is out of print and they never brought it here in Italy. I really think that Realms adventure modules in the 3.5 are necessary for the product line.The 2nd edition boasted quite a lot of them and they did just fine. Since 2000 and the new Forgotten Realms products' line was introduced, we only got regional sourcebooks in our hands -and a lot of them too. Only a single adventure was pubblished in the first five years (2000-2005): City of the spider queen. Adventure modules in the new Realms edition started coming out with constistency as late as just two years ago starting with "sons of gruumsh" (a very short one). The fact that Wotc are dishing more of them as of late is not a negative fact. It's a necessity since almost none initially existed. There's a nigh infinite material for Faerun yet to be pubblished (heck, just go read the newest articles on Realmslore on Candlekeep), so just relax and let adventures run their course. Campaign sourcebooks will once again going to be pubblished instead of adventures in the next years.
MarkusTay63 04-12-07, 05:40 PM	I am not a expert but there is several possiblities if I remeber correctly... 2) The planet has the same gravity because it is made of denser materials...I might be missing the correct term here, but it isn't only the size but the weight of the object that determines gravity.Correct... White Dwarfs, Nuetron Stars, Pulsars, AND of course Black Holes are all examples of small celestial bodies that generate ENORMOUS amounts of gravity. A Black Hole the size of a marble would have something like 100 times Earth's gravity, so the physics problems are easily worked out without having to dabble in "because it's magic". ;) Of course, I like the idea of it being lower in gravity, and everything on it being relative. Then a 1st lev human child from Abeir-Toril could PUMMEL an ancient Undying Elf into the ground. :D Like I've said earlier in this thread, I'm a fan of most of the pieces of the setting, but NOT the setting itself. Maybe some day...
Stigger 04-12-07, 05:58 PM	Of course, I like the idea of it being lower in gravity, and everything on it being relative. Then a 1st lev human child from Abeir-Toril could PUMMEL an ancient Undying Elf into the ground. :D I am so going to use that if I ever make a foray into Eberron... :D
GothicDan 04-12-07, 10:31 PM	Correct... White Dwarfs, Nuetron Stars, Pulsars, AND of course Black Holes are all examples of small celestial bodies that generate ENORMOUS amounts of gravity. How do you define 'small'? Most of the above things have masses several times that of our sun. Black Holes have large radii of effect, but the actual singularity itself (there's a difference) is supposedly infinitely small (not necessarily infinite as in INFINITE, but too small to be measured).
Stigger 04-13-07, 02:16 AM	Hard to get much smaller than near-infinitely small... little package, big boom... or suck as the case may be. :D
johnkretzer 04-14-07, 01:55 AM	Have you ever heard anything about Full-Metal Alchemist? The protagonist brother's soul gets trapped in such a construst (heavily resembling a warforged -a metallic version of it) to avoid dying after his body is slain. Here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fullmetal_Alchemist) As you said, House Canith practicaly copied the recipe to create them (a picture of a Canith warforged factory appears later in the campaign setting book). This does not erase the fact that warforged existed since the time of giants on the continent of Xendrik -way more than 12 years ago from the current Eberron year (albeit that the warforged that are presented as a playable race are relatively new). Anyhow, whatever. I 'm going back to my Spellfire book (new edition) reading . Later. No I am not familar with Full-Metal Alchemist...are you familar the FR comics though something like that was the orgin of one of the characters. Sure no said that versions of warforged haven't existed before but the current version as you have said is pretty new. So your point was?
johnkretzer 04-14-07, 02:06 AM	Correct... White Dwarfs, Nuetron Stars, Pulsars, AND of course Black Holes are all examples of small celestial bodies that generate ENORMOUS amounts of gravity. A Black Hole the size of a marble would have something like 100 times Earth's gravity, so the physics problems are easily worked out without having to dabble in "because it's magic". ;) Of course, I like the idea of it being lower in gravity, and everything on it being relative. Then a 1st lev human child from Abeir-Toril could PUMMEL an ancient Undying Elf into the ground. :D Like I've said earlier in this thread, I'm a fan of most of the pieces of the setting, but NOT the setting itself. Maybe some day... Wow I actualy got something right...:D Um... a human child would have a normal str of 6 to 8...from FR to Eberron his str might be a 10 or 12...I somehow doubt he would pummel a Undying elf who is 1: higher str., 2: immune to subduel damage. and 3 proably alot higher level... I am wondering could the FRs have less gravity then Eberron? Or just take the names out could a larger planet have less than a smaller planet?
GothicDan 04-14-07, 07:01 AM	Typically, no, though it would depend on the density, too - I guess... The gravity of a planet is approximately: F[g] = (planetary density)/(approximate density of the Earth as a basis - 5.5) * radius of the planet. Of course, it's a little more complicated than that, what with radial velocity vectors and space-time curvatures and possible gaseous versus solid planetary bodies. But it's possible, just highly unlikely, since Eberron's and Toril's average density is probably about the same.
Francius 04-14-07, 10:49 AM	No I am not familar with Full-Metal Alchemist...are you familar the FR comics though something like that was the origin of one of the characters. Of course I am as I possess almost all of them. You're probably refering to Minder, who wasn't something similar to a warforged at all. In fact he was an iron golem. Did you follow my link? So how did you like Full-Metal Alchemist? Alot of the elements from it do resemble Eberron, no? Especially some of its cities with the tall towers... Sure no said that versions of warforged haven't existed before but the current version as you have said is pretty new. So your point was? My point was (in case you missed my first post talking about it) that warforged -either the modern ones or the old- have existed for a long time before their arrival to Khorvaire. Way more than just *twelve* years as Deekin (and not you) said.
Francius 04-14-07, 10:59 AM	To Kretzer, Dan and everyone interested in the physics law of gravity: http://csep10.phys.utk.edu/astr161/lect/history/gravity.gif We now see that in the Universal Law of Gravitation the main quantity is mass. In popular language mass and weight are often used to mean the same thing; in reality they are related but quite different things. What we commonly call weight is really just the gravitational force exerted on an object of a certain mass. We can illustrate by choosing the Earth as one of the two masses in the previous illustration of the Law of Gravitation: (G*M) / r2 = g So the first posted formula becomes: Fg = m * g (Force of gravity = multiplying the mass m by the acceleration due to gravity, g) Thus, the weight of an object of mass m at the surface of the Earth is obtained by multiplying the mass m by the acceleration due to gravity, g, at the surface of the Earth. The acceleration due to gravity is approximately the product of the universal gravitational constant G and the mass of the Earth M, divided by the radius of the Earth, r, squared. (We assume the Earth to be spherical and neglect the radius of the object relative to the radius of the Earth in this discussion.) The measured gravitational acceleration at the Earth's surface is found to be about 980 cm/second/second.
GothicDan 04-14-07, 11:08 PM	Yes. That's the law of gravitation as taught in General Physics 101. I was referring to one that specifically took into account the density of a mass, which is more applicable on a more celestial scale. I am basically a senior physics major at college; I'm not just "interested" in it.
miscellany 04-15-07, 12:57 AM	My point was (in case you missed my first post talking about it) that warforged -either the modern ones or the old- have existed for a long time before their arrival to Khorvaire. Way more than just *twelve* years as Deekin (and not you) said. Can you just totally imagine some giant -and i mean like mountain sized ...construct monster that would make the Tarrasque pee itself burried under half a mountain of earth burried somewhere in Xen-Drik just waiting to be turned on and by that I don't mean getting freaky with it ;) ? Mr. M thinks it would be ag ood idea for Dms to use Imaskar (sounds like Mascara but not) if they want Warforged in teh Realms. :D :) :D
johnkretzer 04-15-07, 01:45 AM	Of course I am as I possess almost all of them. You're probably refering to Minder, who wasn't something similar to a warforged at all. In fact he was an iron golem. Did you follow my link? So how did you like Full-Metal Alchemist? Alot of the elements from it do resemble Eberron, no? Especially some of its cities with the tall towers... My point was (in case you missed my first post talking about it) that warforged -either the modern ones or the old- have existed for a long time before their arrival to Khorvaire. Way more than just *twelve* years as Deekin (and not you) said. Yes Minder, a living soul(or maybe the character passed on I don't remeber) crammed into a construct...sounds exactly like the Full Alchemist character. Unlike warforged to me. It has some similarities but then again I think that is mostly to similar souces of inspiration. And your point is wrong. Because the warforged that fought in the Last War were made on Khovaire so how could they have arrive there. House Cannith didn't recruit them from Xen'Drik. They made them in creations forges that they have been adjusting for about 70 to 80 years. In the time they created alot of models till they hit upon the modern warforged who didn't exist till the quite recently. So yes you are right in a broad sense that they were anscestors of warforged for a long time but the new ones are quite recent. Personaly also I didn't see anything that suggested that the giants had them. They were used by the Quori exclusively. Though I always thought it would be funny if they orginal warforged were used as toy soldiers that the giants played wargames with.
johnkretzer 04-15-07, 01:48 AM	Typically, no, though it would depend on the density, too - I guess... The gravity of a planet is approximately: F[g] = (planetary density)/(approximate density of the Earth as a basis - 5.5) * radius of the planet. Of course, it's a little more complicated than that, what with radial velocity vectors and space-time curvatures and possible gaseous versus solid planetary bodies. But it's possible, just highly unlikely, since Eberron's and Toril's average density is probably about the same. Ok I was asking more for another game I run called Dragonstar. So it is possible just not very likely?
Francius 04-15-07, 11:10 AM	.I am basically a senior physics major at college; I'm not just "interested" in it. And how was I supposed to know it? What I did was just provide a quick info about the law of gravity, and instead of gratitude I get a note from someone who's not simply interested in physics, he's a "senior physics major at college". :rolleyes: It's strange however how you say that the gravity law I posted doesn't involve or take under consideration the "mass density". As a note, there are two kinds of density, "weight density" and "mass density". Mostly mass density is used, and when we say: "density", we mean "mass density". If you then simply meant "mass" then the aforementioned formula *does* contain mass in its equation: Fg = m * g (Force of gravity = multiplying the mass m by the acceleration due to gravity, g) Let's start with what density is: Density is the concentration of matter. It is the amount of mass per unit volume of a substance. For example, Iron has a greater density than wood, and wood has a greater density than styrofoam. The relative density (Specific density) of a substance is a measure of how it compares in density to water. P = m/V P= (rho) is the density of the substance, measured in kg·m-3 m= is the mass of the substance, measured in kg V= is the volume of the substance, measured in m3 Then you say you'd like to take the law of gravity to a grander scale - one involving planetarian masses. Although I think that the Universal law of gravitation works just fine, another method to measure a planet's gravity is to compare its density to Earth's in the following formula: (The density of the earth is 5.5 grams per cubic centimeter.) We have a planet named "X", of which we want to calculate its gravity. First we have to find its density: we'll take for example a 4.5 g/c3 The formula is: X's planet gravity = ( X's density/Earth's density) * X's planet radius We 'll asume that X and Earth have the same radius. The gravity on X planet is less than earth's gravity even though the radius is the same. This is because the density of planet X is less than the density of the Earth.
Francius 04-15-07, 11:46 AM	Yes Minder, a living soul(or maybe the character passed on I don't remeber) crammed into a construct...sounds exactly like the Full Alchemist character. Unlike warforged to me. Minder was just an iron golem magicaly enhanced with a major intelligence thatn others of its kind. I don't remember if he had a soul treapped inside his iron body. And your point is wrong. Because the warforged that fought in the Last War were made on Khovaire so how could they have arrive there. House Cannith didn't recruit them from Xen'Drik. They made them in creations forges that they have been adjusting for about 70 to 80 years. In the time they created alot of models till they hit upon the modern warforged who didn't exist till the quite recently. So yes you are right in a broad sense that they were anscestors of warforged for a long time but the new ones are quite recent. I think you're somehow confused here. Near the halfway point of the Last War, Merrix d'Cannith, of the Dragonmarked House Cannith, was commissioned to build a great army of golems, to serve as warriors. The initial constructs they built let the house not satisfied because the products were weak, unstable, unintelligent. After many unsuccessful attempts, Merrix's son, Aarren d'Cannith, finally invented the process used in the creation forges. The warforged that Aarren's creation forges created were fully sentient, with the ability to have emotions, relationships, even to experience death; each new generation increased in sophistication and intelligence, ranging from the barely-sentient titans to the youngest versions of warforged who were fully capable of achieving advanced education and ability in magic.Aarren d' Cannith is said to have used some divination magic or some other mean of contact to get to the formula used for those ancient warforged the giants of Xen'drik produced. The warforged of Khorvaire are related to the Xendrik ones. They have existed for far a longer time that a mere 12 years. Which point you do not understand? Personaly also I didn't see anything that suggested that the giants had them. They were used by the Quori exclusively. Wrong. The giants of Xen'drik created their own versions for their wars against the Quori, because the warforged are immune to many Quori tactics. However, according to "Tales of the Last War", the giants invented the warforged, after which the Quori stole the secrets of their creation from the dreams of giants and created their own.
Fabius Maximus 04-15-07, 01:40 PM	Since the Eberron novels are not considered canon, they cannot be used as a source. Else, there would have been sightings of the 13th mark, and some-one would have dropped a dead-magic bomb on Stormhome.. That's not to say that the giants could be the inventers of the warforged. This details just was intentionally left out of the source books.
GothicDan 04-15-07, 06:39 PM	Francius, I have absolutely no clue what you said in your last post to me, besides stating redundant things, being condescending and insulting, and trolling. Just thought I'd let you know.
miscellany 04-15-07, 10:42 PM	Chill, Daniel If your way to overinflate small issues into bigger things was used on our bank interest rate we would turn out as millionares inside of a week. Now go outside the frat house and find yourself a female. :p :::::::::::::::::: What I learned about Eberron today that I think could be used in the Realms has to do with intrigue and affilliations. I am saying someone needs to look at how Eberron does its dragonmarked houses and nations and realize this is a good part of the setting that works good for play so it could be this way in the Forgotten Realms to. Today we had some convoluted intrigue and plotting we did and NPCs did and it was very fun. Basically we helped one of our players perform an assassination on a merchant from the Cogs at the bottom of Sharn who did some kidnapping on another merchant's daughter to sell her as a slave to pay off some of the debt the daughter's father owed the first merchant then we took her back to her family. There was a lot of sneaking around and shady dealing and inuendo involved and it was fun even for the beefy fighter types that are only good for hacking things ---they got to intimidate. The Red Wizards are slavers and the Zhentarim are too and I can't even remember the names of the societies and semisecret orgainizations that a good sourcebook writer could look at and push a side of the Forgotten Realms we don't get enough of in our sourcebooks. :::::::::::::: Daniel don't be mad at me I hope you find some ways to get rid of combative energy. (Hint=don't talk about physics!) Good luck!
Stigger 04-16-07, 01:17 AM	Can't think why you couldn't run that sort of intrigue laden stuff in the Realms... Cult of the Dragon, Zhents, Red Wizards, Calishites, Rundeen... all of them, and quite a few other groups as well, lend themselves readily to it without much work.
Marcus Majarra 04-16-07, 02:55 AM	There's one thing I like about Eberron that the Realms does not offer, from a publication point-of-view: going more in-depth on a multitude of existing concepts. Going over the majority of the sourcebooks published for Eberron (to be more precise, by looking at any book except Sharn: City of Towers, Secrets of Xen'drik, and Secrets of Sarlona), I've noticed that they each expand on the core elements of the setting. In other words, the sourcebooks have a narrow scope in terms of subject, but a wide scope in terms of the setting. This, IMHO, is a very interesting aspect of Eberron that FR regrettably doesn't have. By looking at the ECS, you have a good idea of what the world is, who the players are, and what the situation is. It gives a reasonable number of options, placing a strong emphasis on the fact that any published material should and will be included in the setting, and you can expand on what you know by simply selecting the sourcebook associated with what you want to explore more in-depth (for example, picking up Five Nations to get a better political and cultural feel). FR, on the other hand, is overwhelming from the start and most of the sourcebooks have a geographic focus and the appeal to select them is much lesser if you don't have any existing interest in that particular area. That's not to say that the sourcebooks aren't good. I know from experience that Unapproachable East is a great book, but unless you happened to have gotten an interest in the area from the short entries in the FRCS, the book will have little appeal to a player or DM. To make a long story short: almost every sourcebook in Eberron can be genuinely useful in every campaign, whereas most FR sourcebooks have a localized feel (making it seem like a campaign setting contained within a campaign setting).
johnkretzer 04-16-07, 03:18 AM	Minder was just an iron golem magicaly enhanced with a major intelligence thatn others of its kind. I don't remember if he had a soul treapped inside his iron body. I think you're somehow confused here. Near the halfway point of the Last War, Merrix d'Cannith, of the Dragonmarked House Cannith, was commissioned to build a great army of golems, to serve as warriors. The initial constructs they built let the house not satisfied because the products were weak, unstable, unintelligent. After many unsuccessful attempts, Merrix's son, Aarren d'Cannith, finally invented the process used in the creation forges. The warforged that Aarren's creation forges created were fully sentient, with the ability to have emotions, relationships, even to experience death; each new generation increased in sophistication and intelligence, ranging from the barely-sentient titans to the youngest versions of warforged who were fully capable of achieving advanced education and ability in magic.Aarren d' Cannith is said to have used some divination magic or some other mean of contact to get to the formula used for those ancient warforged the giants of Xen'drik produced. The warforged of Khorvaire are related to the Xendrik ones. They have existed for far a longer time that a mere 12 years. Which point you do not understand? Wrong. The giants of Xen'drik created their own versions for their wars against the Quori, because the warforged are immune to many Quori tactics. However, according to "Tales of the Last War", the giants invented the warforged, after which the Quori stole the secrets of their creation from the dreams of giants and created their own. Ah I am sennsing the faulty thinking in your knowledge. In Eberron Novels aren't cannon. In the Soucebook Secrets of Xen'Dirk there is no mention of the giants having warforged...There is mentioned that the Quori had them though. True I grant you it is murky but please leave the novels out of it as there unlike the Realms don't have a bearing in Eberron. Also Minder had the soul of a dwarven maiden kept(or trapped) in it. She was a adventuring campanion of the wizard. Re-read the comics if you still have them...or maybe others can confirm this...give me a week and I'll see if I can find the exact issue numbers where this was revealed. And yes there were warforged but as I said those were unplayable as PCs. The ones that are playable are very recent. What is your point? Or are you going to point out now that House Cannith had many different kinds of servant and war constructs and how those to can be consider warforged? As a matter of fact neither does the warforged titan or the warforged,quoricrafted(from Secrets of Xen'Dirk) have the living construct type. Only the mordern ones do...my guessing is that the process as changed dramticaly. Here is my theory...on Xen'Dirk during the war between the giants and the quori the quori had the warforged made so they could use them to be there(since at this time they didn't have the inspired to serve this function). Maybe they influenced the dreams of a giant to do it first but that is all moot because it was the Quori who used them. So you have this empty shell that can house a spirit. Now came along the House Cannith who used it to create soldiers, but having a thinking soldier is much better than having something mindless. So they started to play with it till they started to think. Unknowingly or maybe knowingly they started to capture souls from Eberron's plane where the souls go after death. There is nothing in the soucebooks that counters this...then again that is the beauty of Ebberron as a DM or player my hands aren't tied by other peoples ideas to the extent that can happen in the Realms. Not that my hands are tied in the Realms...it is actualy kinda fun when I tell a fan boy no Drizzt died to a cave fisher in my Realms.
Stigger 04-16-07, 08:07 AM	Wonder how much longer this is going to stay civil... my condolences in advance miscellany.
GothicDan 04-16-07, 08:36 AM	Chill, Daniel If your way to overinflate small issues into bigger things was used on our bank interest rate we would turn out as millionares inside of a week. Now go outside the frat house and find yourself a female. :p Bigger things? I was done with it and fairly amused and calm. Also: I'm gay. Go find yourself a cabana boy and learn the wonders! And someone specifically brought up physics in reference to Eberron and Abeir-Toril. I was being amazingly topical.
ClobberinTime 04-16-07, 01:22 PM	I think what Dan was trying to say is that the equation g m1 m2/R^2 is an approximation, and is in fact only a good approximation if two conditions hold: 1, The masses m1 and m2 have a uniform density, and 2, R^2 is big in comparison to the radius' of m1 and m2.
Francius 04-16-07, 08:26 PM	Francius, I have absolutely no clue what you said in your last post to me, besides stating redundant things, being condescending and insulting, and trolling. Just thought I'd let you know. :confused: The heck are you talking about? Dude, are you nuts? I firstly tried to explain some basics about the law of gravity and you told me - "thanks but it was of no use to me since I am a senior of physics studies at college.Besides, I am interested in a gravity law that specifically takes into account the density of a mass, which is more applicable on a more celestial scale." So I next tried to take the law of gravity on a larger scale involving planet density masses and I went through the effort of posting it... Then, at the end of it all, you have the guts to say that I'm stating redundant things, being condescending and insulting, and trolling...to you??? :confused: Just thought I'd let you know that you first have to read a text correctly before going on and taking insults from where there's none to be taken. Read correctly and stop imagining things.
GothicDan 04-16-07, 08:27 PM	EDIT: Not in the mood to discuss anything. If anyone is having difficulty reading the English language, it's certainly not me.
Francius 04-16-07, 08:44 PM	Ah I am sensing the faulty thinking in your knowledge. In Eberron Novels aren't cannon. In the Soucebook Secrets of Xen'Dirk there is no mention of the giants having warforged...There is mentioned that the Quori had them though. True I grant you it is murky but please leave the novels out of it as there unlike the Realms don't have a bearing in Eberron. I know that this is true, but since the only source to find more about Warforged is a novel that does not count as canon, what other source is there to help one interested in their story? Maybe novels are not part of the official continuing story of Eberron (since it's clearly open-ended and varying from campaign to campaign) but the elements presented in them should provide info for the world's past. So let's save time and confusion and take as official the existence of warforged in Xen'drik, shall we? Also Minder had the soul of a dwarven maiden kept(or trapped) in it. She was a adventuring campanion of the wizard. Re-read the comics if you still have them...or maybe others can confirm this...give me a week and I'll see if I can find the exact issue numbers where this was revealed. I told you I do not possess all of them. Perhaps the issue in which Minder's story is unveiled is one of those I miss. And yes there were warforged but as I said those were unplayable as PCs. The ones that are playable are very recent. What is your point? Or are you going to point out now that House Cannith had many different kinds of servant and war constructs and how those to can be consider warforged? I am speechless. You ask me for the third time what my point was about giving clues for the warforged's history. Did I ever say they that the first warforged were playable? That's only normal and natural: the giants' warforged in Xend'rik were created long before than the current date the Eberron campaign setting is set to start. So here's my point again: The warforged -either the modern ones or the old- have existed for a long time before their arrival to Khorvaire. Way more than just *twelve* years as Deekin (and not you) said. Please tell me you grasped it. Here is my theory...on Xen'Dirk during the war between the giants and the quori the quori had the warforged made so they could use them to be there(since at this time they didn't have the inspired to serve this function). Maybe they influenced the dreams of a giant to do it first but that is all moot because it was the Quori who used them. So you have this empty shell that can house a spirit. Now came along the House Cannith who used it to create soldiers, but having a thinking soldier is much better than having something mindless. So they started to play with it till they started to think. Unknowingly or maybe knowingly they started to capture souls from Eberron's plane where the souls go after death. There is nothing in the soucebooks that counters this...then again that is the beauty of Ebberron as a DM or player my hands aren't tied by other peoples ideas to the extent that can happen in the Realms. Not that my hands are tied in the Realms...it is actualy kinda fun when I tell a fan boy no Drizzt died to a cave fisher in my Realms. Nice story. Could be an ipothesis as many others can exist.
Francius 04-16-07, 08:44 PM	EDIT: Not in the mood to discuss anything. If anyone is having difficulty reading the English language, it's certainly not me. Bravo! How mature! :rolleyes:
Karsus the Mad 04-16-07, 09:29 PM	EDIT: Not in the mood to discuss anything. If anyone is having difficulty reading the English language, it's certainly not me. :confused: Chill GD. He wasn't being insulting. He merely returned the same attitude that you gave him. Get what you give, that sort of thing:) No need to continue the mutual bating. Besides, even the rolleyes smiley is cute. :rolleyes:-----:rolleyes: :rolleyes:----------:rolleyes: :rolleyes:-------:rolleyes: :rolleyes:-:rolleyes: see? Getting back on topic peeeez?:bigeyes: Something I found out about Eberron recently that I might like (will have to check into it to see whether or not I actually do like it) is that the elves aren't anything like your standard run-of-the-mill generic elves.
GothicDan 04-16-07, 09:36 PM	This is the part that ticked me off a bit: What I did was just provide a quick info about the law of gravity, and instead of gratitude I get a note from someone who's not simply interested in physics, he's a "senior physics major at college". A) I have no reason to show him gratitude. I provided a more in-depth answer that was more applicable to the situation. B) The use of quotations around "senior physics major at college" is condescending. C) The rolling-eyes emoticon is a blatant sign of disrespect. Rolling your eyes at someone in real life is disrespectful. D) I really couldn't parse half of Francius's statement. That was not exaggeration or a barb at him for sake of pure malice. But, meh, I don't really care much any more. Far more important things to care about. Like homework. Ugh. If jovial sarcasm was meant on Francius's part initially (which I assume it wasn't, considering the way I've seen him post on this thread previously, and on others), then I apologize for misreading it. It's the internet; tone of voice is moot.
Marcus Majarra 04-16-07, 11:35 PM	Something I found out about Eberron recently that I might like (will have to check into it to see whether or not I actually do like it) is that the elves aren't anything like your standard run-of-the-mill generic elves. They actually did this for all the core races. Dwarves are a former barbarian culture that not only managed to achieve civilization in recent centuries but has also become one of the leading economic forces in the world. Gnomes are masters of intrigue and subterfuge. Halflings hail from a nomadic culture centered around training of dinosaurs. Half-elves are a fully integrated race. Half-orcs do not carry the social stigma core half-orcs do.
Bluenose 04-17-07, 04:56 AM	Getting back on topic peeeez?:bigeyes: Something I found out about Eberron recently that I might like (will have to check into it to see whether or not I actually do like it) is that the elves aren't anything like your standard run-of-the-mill generic elves. They aren't. You've got four main cultures. 1. The elves of Khorvaire, long established on the continent and pretty much integrated culturally into the mainstream culture. Most of these are connected to or at least are descended from House Phiarlan or it's House Thuranni splinter. Apart from the physical differences between elves and humans (and half-elves, etc.) there isn't much difference in outlook between most of them and their human neighbours. 2. The elves of Aerenal. Descended fom the elves who left Xen'drik after they revolted against their giant masters. They are concerned with death and have a habit of turning exceptionally gifted elves into "undying" after their death - note that these aren't undead animated by negative energy but undying animated by positive energy. They worship the Undying Court which is made up of those ancestors who've have been made undying, and there's a moderately common practice of living Aereni using magic and disguise to look more like undying. They are unusually hostile to dragons and somewhat isolationist, with only one port in their sub-continent that welcomes foreign visitors. 3. The elves of Valenar. They also live in Khorvaire but are recent immigrants who were brought in as mercenaries by the nation of Cyre to fight in the Last War. They revolted, seizing territory of their own and now spend their time looking for people to fight with. They are as concerned with death and their dead ancestors as the Aereni, but their interest is in embodying the ideals and actions of a famous ancestor who acts as a spirit guide to them. Since most of the ancestors they choose to emulate are famous heroes from the elven revolt against their giant masters, they tend to be aggresively war-like. While they look down on people who don't look like they'd provide a decent fight, if you do look as if you're tough they'll often want to test that impression. 4. The drow of Xen'drik. While the other elves are generally descended from elves who were household slaves to giants back in the days of the giant empire, the drow are descended from those who worked outdoors. When the other elves left the continent at the end of the revolt, the drow stayed behind. They live in small semi-nomadic tribal groups and fight a nearly constant war with barbarian giants. They aren't fond of other species either but it is possible to make peaceful contact with them on occasions, unless you're a gnome :) .
Fabius Maximus 04-17-07, 06:27 AM	They actually did this for all the core races. Dwarves are a former barbarian culture that not only managed to achieve civilization in recent centuries but has also become one of the leading economic forces in the world. Gnomes are masters of intrigue and subterfuge. Halflings hail from a nomadic culture centered around training of dinosaurs. Half-elves are a fully integrated race. Half-orcs do not carry the social stigma core half-orcs do. The Zil gnomes are downright scary.
GothicDan 04-17-07, 08:42 AM	Something I found out about Eberron recently that I might like (will have to check into it to see whether or not I actually do like it) is that the elves aren't anything like your standard run-of-the-mill generic elves. Oddly enough, this is one of the things I don't like... The "make it different just to be different" thing they did with the races. Mind you, I have absolutely nothing against the cultures themselves. I just think it would have been cooler if they had made up NEW races with those cultures. To me, culture is far more important than appearance, so to call something by the same name just because they look similar feels a little misleading. And please, don't flame me. It's a genuine opinion with no actual bashing towards Eberron itself, but towards one of the design methodologies that could also be applied to any other RPG that used it. ;)
Karsus the Mad 04-17-07, 10:02 AM	Oddly enough, this is one of the things I don't like... The "make it different just to be different" thing they did with the races. Mind you, I have absolutely nothing against the cultures themselves. I just think it would have been cooler if they had made up NEW races with those cultures. To me, culture is far more important than appearance, so to call something by the same name just because they look similar feels a little misleading. The descriptions above about the elves of Eberron is interesting, but they certainly don't seem to be particularly elven to me (when compared to the generic elves of dnd), but I don't really mind that if there's reasoning for such a drastic disparity between the two elven groupings. For example, in my own setting, elves certainly aren't the standard, but there's a reasoning. They're ancient usurpers (they came from "elsewhere" basically and claimed large stretches of land from barbaric tribes of humanoids), have a natural aptitude for nature magic (think something like sorcerer using druid spell list), and have an abhorent hatred for the arcane (which they view as manipulating/breaking nature, where nature magic is utilizing magic in accordance to nature's will), and their society is based on a 4 caste system (warrior caste, learned caste, creation caste, and religion caste), despise dwarves (who are also vastly different than standard dwarves in look, are masters of the arcane, but otherwise are the same) due to a vast war that left both elves and dwarves little more than legendary shadows of their former glory. The elves are the way they are simply due to nescessity of trying to survive in a world so different from the one they came from. They abhore arcane magic because in the setting it's not a natural form of magic, but rather the perversion of druidic tradition (there's no divine magic persay, tho' faith magic works as divine, save for it's extremely limited but it gets some interesting perks since it's not dependent upon the nature of the world). Anyway, I'm rambling. And please, don't flame me. It's a genuine opinion with no actual bashing towards Eberron itself, but towards one of the design methodologies that could also be applied to any other RPG that used it. ;) Why would I flame you?:mage:
Bluenose 04-17-07, 10:22 AM	Oddly enough, this is one of the things I don't like... The "make it different just to be different" thing they did with the races. Mind you, I have absolutely nothing against the cultures themselves. I just think it would have been cooler if they had made up NEW races with those cultures. To me, culture is far more important than appearance, so to call something by the same name just because they look similar feels a little misleading. And please, don't flame me. It's a genuine opinion with no actual bashing towards Eberron itself, but towards one of the design methodologies that could also be applied to any other RPG that used it. ;) Taking that argument a little further, you presumably don't have Wild elves in your version of the Realms because they are so different culturally from Sun elves. All your humans practice the same culture all round the world too. I'm certain you don't actually think that way. :) Personally I'm quite satisfied that different groups of the same species will develop in different ways depending on their environment, their history, and so on. Eberron's races have solid reasons to be the way they are, as do the FR ones. I see absolutely no reason why either group should be expected to be culturally similar to elves from Greyhawk, or Krynn, or Athas, or Mystara, or Middle Earth, or Karsus' . If there's a good reason for them to be different than make them so.
The Ubbergeek 04-17-07, 12:34 PM	And again, we see that for somes, the elves HAVE to be like Tolkien's ideas of the elves, or they are not elves. :rolleyes: :mad:
Francius 04-17-07, 01:50 PM	:confused: Chill GD. He wasn't being insulting. He merely returned the same attitude that you gave him. Get what you give, that sort of thing:) No need to continue the mutual bating. Besides, even the rolleyes smiley is cute. Exactly. Thanks for addressing that. To put some points clear: Snobish attitude is something I do not like - especially when you receive that in return for getting in the trouble to explain a subject in a more specific way so people will understand better. One that gets offended by the rolling eyes emoticon and does so too even when someone in real life gives him that look, is going to have a tough time dealing with persons in general. Sarcasm is one thing. Misreading and misinterperting another's post to consequentially find it insulting, is clearly another. Anyways, I 'm done with that issue (which wasn't my problem anyway). There clearly are more important cases to bother my mind with - like architecture and women for example. Back on topic now. Tolkienesque Elves are the prototype for the Elven race since J.R.R was the first author that described them in detail and created a comprehensive language and culture for them; he also was the first one to exactly position them within a fantasy world - not just as a fairy tale or as part of the European Nordic mythology. Having said that, I happen to dislike how the elven race fares in the Eberron world. I first run into them in Middle-Earth and the Faerunian Elves are the ones who resemble them the most. I'm always more akin to the original form.
MarkusTay63 04-17-07, 03:24 PM	Wonder how much longer this is going to stay civil... This is why I did not answer to Daniel's obvious desire for further elaboration from me... I will concede his obvious superior knowledge of physics, my own being 'adequate' at best. But to answer your question anyway, check out THIS VIDEO. (http://www.metacafe.com/watch/292662/we_are_very_small/) Thats what I mean when I use the word 'small'. ;) I do get a kick out of the fact that a NOVEL has changed lore in Eberron... I really feel for you guys. :rofl: Newer stuff, like the giants having invented Warforged, trumping material in the campaign guide? It had to happen sooner or later... at least your forums will have hot and heavy debates now. ;) I don't know why, but a little part of me deep inside is doing cartwheels right now. I'm an Ebil git at times. :devil:
GothicDan 04-17-07, 06:40 PM	Taking that argument a little further, you presumably don't have Wild elves in your version of the Realms because they are so different culturally from Sun elves. All your humans practice the same culture all round the world too. I'm certain you don't actually think that way. I don't have Wild Elves or Star Elves in my Realms. As to humans? Humans evolved naturally; in all other settings, Elves were divine-created. Personally I'm quite satisfied that different groups of the same species will develop in different ways depending on their environment, their history, and so on. Eberron's races have solid reasons to be the way they are, as do the FR ones. I see absolutely no reason why either group should be expected to be culturally similar to elves from Greyhawk, or Krynn, or Athas, or Mystara, or Middle Earth, or Karsus' . If there's a good reason for them to be different than make them so. I don't know. In my own game worlds, I'm working on creating all new races so as not to try to step on the toes of pre-established ones.
GothicDan 04-17-07, 06:41 PM	And again, we see that for somes, the elves HAVE to be like Tolkien's ideas of the elves, or they are not elves. I'm glad this'll be the last post I see from your strawman arguments. It must be easy to never actually have to form your own opinion when you just let everyone else make it for you. I hope your mindset brings you happiness.. I know mine will do the same for me. ;)
johnkretzer 04-17-07, 11:16 PM	I do get a kick out of the fact that a NOVEL has changed lore in Eberron... I really feel for you guys. :rofl: Newer stuff, like the giants having invented Warforged, trumping material in the campaign guide? It had to happen sooner or later... at least your forums will have hot and heavy debates now. ;) I don't know why, but a little part of me deep inside is doing cartwheels right now. I'm an Ebil git at times. :devil: I hate to break it to you novels don't become cannon in Eberron. The fact that it states in one of those 'novels' that warforged were invented by giants as no bearing on the world. Not having read the book my guess it is one of two things. 1) the author has no clue, or just had a different vision. or 2) This was presented as a opinion by a character in the story which doesn't make it true. Also we won't be having too many arguements on the Eberron boards about it because one of the things that attract players to Ebberron is the fact that the novels are NOT cannon.
GothicDan 04-17-07, 11:18 PM	I couldn't imagine reading a book that wasn't canon. It would feel... Fake to me, like it didn't mean anything. It would be like reading a series in which the effects of one book had no bearing on the next. :(
miscellany 04-17-07, 11:29 PM	Francius, It's best just to not respond to GD anymore. If you don't feed the horse, it will stop coming around.
Karsus the Mad 04-17-07, 11:30 PM	I couldn't imagine reading a book that wasn't canon. It would feel... Fake to me, like it didn't mean anything. It would be like reading a series in which the effects of one book had no bearing on the next. :( Positive side tho' is that one doesn't buy a sourcebook, only to have sections of it's lore made invalid because author X had npc Y take item A which caused global ramifications to nation B, which spurs the need for a new sourcebook updating what's been made obsolete in the previous one. Saves the customer money (not a good practice for a business) but does allow the designers to focus on new lore, rather than having to rehash old stuff with tidbits of updates, which just become invalidated again in the sequal novel (which is good for business, as more people likely buy the new stuff as opposed to forking out another 60 euro, or whatever the price is wherever, for something that has a pittance of new stuff but is largely what they already do have). At least that's what came to my mind when I thought about as I was typing:P Having the novels be canon in the game books annoy me, while having novels be canon in the setting I like. However, I sincerely don't think such an approach could work for FR, since the game setting is designed to grow, change, and expand.
GothicDan 04-17-07, 11:33 PM	Francius, It's best just to not respond to GD anymore. If you don't feed the horse, it will stop coming around. Well, that's what I quit doing (responding to Francius's posts), but I'm still here, aren't I? ;)
GothicDan 04-17-07, 11:36 PM	Positive side tho' is that one doesn't buy a sourcebook, only to have sections of it's lore made invalid because author X had npc Y take item A which caused global ramifications to nation B, which spurs the need for a new sourcebook updating what's been made obsolete in the previous one. Saves the customer money (not a good practice for a business) but does allow the designers to focus on new lore, rather than having to rehash old stuff with tidbits of updates, which just become invalidated again in the sequal novel (which is good for business, as more people likely buy the new stuff as opposed to forking out another 60 euro, or whatever the price is wherever, for something that has a pittance of new stuff but is largely what they already do have). At least that's what came to my mind when I thought about as I was typing Having the novels be canon in the game books annoy me, while having novels be canon in the setting I like. However, I sincerely don't think such an approach could work for FR, since the game setting is designed to grow, change, and expand. I think the problem could be largely solved if WotC stopped asking for RSE's to be written about, because then the game books wouldn't necessarily have to reflect huge changes. I mean, a few adventurers running around the Silver Marches and slaying Orcs and the like wouldn't really warrant a huge canon-change, y'know?
MarkusTay63 04-17-07, 11:40 PM	@JohnKretzer - We shall see when the next sourcebook comes around. For your sakes, I hope your right. FR would be a much different place without the novels. Perhaps not neccessarily better, but different. Francius, It's best just to not respond to GD anymore. If you don't feed the horse, it will stop coming around.I thought that was a dog... unless your insinuating something about GD's family jewels. :eek: In which case I'm glad I'm not his boyfriend. :P
GothicDan 04-17-07, 11:46 PM	Booyah!!
Karsus the Mad 04-18-07, 12:05 AM	I think the problem could be largely solved if WotC stopped asking for RSE's to be written about, because then the game books wouldn't necessarily have to reflect huge changes. I mean, a few adventurers running around the Silver Marches and slaying Orcs and the like wouldn't really warrant a huge canon-change, y'know? Definitely, but then that lil' evil voice in my head whispers "but is that likely to happen?" :P
GothicDan 04-18-07, 12:22 AM	Definitely, but then that lil' evil voice in my head whispers "but is that likely to happen?" No. *Sobs.*
Francius 04-18-07, 06:21 AM	Francius, It's best just to not respond to GD anymore. If you don't feed the dog, it will stop coming around. Correct advice. I already said I 'm done doing it (responding to Dan).
Marcus Majarra 04-18-07, 03:08 PM	Oddly enough, this is one of the things I don't like... The "make it different just to be different" thing they did with the races. Mind you, I have absolutely nothing against the cultures themselves. I just think it would have been cooler if they had made up NEW races with those cultures. To me, culture is far more important than appearance, so to call something by the same name just because they look similar feels a little misleading. I believe that this kind of approach is one of the shortcomings in FR. Many sourcebooks expand on the number of playable races, as if the FRCS and Races of Faerun didn't bring enough stuff into the fray. As such, the end result is a lesser amount of cultural information regarding the said races. While, from a rule system point of view, this approach might seem interesting, it does lessen the impact a given culture has on the character being played. This is where I think Eberron did right. They came up with a general history for the various races of the world and plotted the general events that occurred within those races. From then on, they built the race's culture based on those events, regardless of any racial aptitudes or shortcomings. In FR, you might find yourself playing a moon elf. That alone doesn't say much, as there is very little cultural heritage intrinsic to moon elves as a whole. You've got them running all over the place, Evereska, the Evermeet, and the High Forest are only prime examples of their possible origins. Suffice it to say that a moon elf from Evereska will not have the same kind of upbringing as a moon elf from the Evermeet or the High Forest. In itself, this is a lack of cohesiveness. What, then, defines a moon elf? Some might argue that what defines him is that he's an Evereskan moon elf (his culture is both moon elven and Evereskan), but this sort of claim is no different from saying that an Eberron elf from Valenar is defined as a Valenar elf (his culture is both elven and Valenar). In essence, from a racial point of view, Eberron differs from FR in that FR introduces a vast number of subraces. The only reason to introduce them as subraces is to help establish arbitrary mechanical differences between what would otherwise be multiple culturally different groups from the same race (as subraces imply different offshoots of the same race).
johnkretzer 04-18-07, 03:56 PM	I couldn't imagine reading a book that wasn't canon. It would feel... Fake to me, like it didn't mean anything. It would be like reading a series in which the effects of one book had no bearing on the next. :( Truthfuly if I do read novels about Ebberron or even FR(which I rarely do now) I treat it like a alternate version of the world. Sure if it is just a couple of adventures killing some orc then it can be cannon but when it is a world shaking event it becomes...annoying. I just ignored it. Till it is in a soucebook then I decide what happens. For instance the city of shade appeared and within a year various power groups destroyed it to loot the magical knowledge. I turned it into a campaign and it was fun but this means the value of any souce book that comes out that has the City of Shade become a little less. In Ebberron I don't have to worry about that as much if it all. I have done minor changes to my Eberron but it is mostly minor stuff and it isn't as sweeping. Though this maybe mostly due to it's relative newness.
johnkretzer 04-18-07, 04:00 PM	@JohnKretzer - We shall see when the next sourcebook comes around. For your sakes, I hope your right. FR would be a much different place without the novels. Perhaps not neccessarily better, but different. Yes I realize this may not hold true forever, though I think the separation of novels will remain I am more worry about the advancement of the timeline because that will happen eventualy...but hey even with all the novels that try to dictate my games and such I still like the Reams. And will probably always play there. And I have the time to play both right now so no lose on my part. If I had to choose one it would be Ebberron because of the novel issue.
GothicDan 04-18-07, 08:40 PM	I believe that this kind of approach is one of the shortcomings in FR. Many sourcebooks expand on the number of playable races, as if the FRCS and Races of Faerun didn't bring enough stuff into the fray. As such, the end result is a lesser amount of cultural information regarding the said races. Agreed. That's why I'm not fond of the newer races of Elves being introduced. While, from a rule system point of view, this approach might seem interesting, it does lessen the impact a given culture has on the character being played. I don't know. I could care less about rules. I, personally, love the cultural differences between the various subraces. This is where I think Eberron did right. They came up with a general history for the various races of the world and plotted the general events that occurred within those races. From then on, they built the race's culture based on those events, regardless of any racial aptitudes or shortcomings. That's entirely silly. Racial aptitudes and shortcomings directly result in differences in a race's society, history, and evolution. Of course, I'm a huge neurology buff; I think the shortcoming of many fantasy races is that they are not inhuman enough. They don't take into account the neurological, magical, and physiological differences of the races enough when describing their mindsets and societies. FR does this more than most, though, so it's one of the reasons I like it. In FR, you might find yourself playing a moon elf. That alone doesn't say much, as there is very little cultural heritage intrinsic to moon elves as a whole. ... Yes there is? Suffice it to say that a moon elf from Evereska will not have the same kind of upbringing as a moon elf from the Evermeet or the High Forest. In itself, this is a lack of cohesiveness. It's not a lack of cohesion. It's a direct result of societal and familial changes, varying from one subculture to the next. What, then, defines a moon elf? Some might argue that what defines him is that he's an Evereskan moon elf (his culture is both moon elven and Evereskan), but this sort of claim is no different from saying that an Eberron elf from Valenar is defined as a Valenar elf (his culture is both elven and Valenar). Why are either of those a bad thing? In essence, from a racial point of view, Eberron differs from FR in that FR introduces a vast number of subraces. The only reason to introduce them as subraces is to help establish arbitrary mechanical differences between what would otherwise be multiple culturally different groups from the same race (as subraces imply different offshoots of the same race). If you assume that Elves evolved as normal races. They did not. They were divinely created in FR in the image of their patron deities, which are different from one to the next. For instance, a race fashioned in the image of Thor would not be the same as one fashioned in the image of Freya. That's the main difference: the Elves of Eberron reflect a more human societal evolution than those of Faerun, because the latter were created as they were and set down in Faerun via divine hands. Neither way is BETTER than the other, per se. The fact that Eberron is completely disconnected from the other worlds, however, makes it hard for me to believe that Elves would have evolved there, when they were created by the Seldarine everywhere else in the multiverse. That's why for my own world, I'm not even including humans, let alone Elves or Dwarves or the like.
johnkretzer 04-18-07, 11:34 PM	Neither way is BETTER than the other, per se. The fact that Eberron is completely disconnected from the other worlds, however, makes it hard for me to believe that Elves would have evolved there, when they were created by the Seldarine everywhere else in the multiverse. That's why for my own world, I'm not even including humans, let alone Elves or Dwarves or the like. You see that is the old way of thinking. For better or worse the multiverse of the D&D worlds no longer exist. It isn't the fact that Ebberron is disconected it is the fact none of the worlds are connected anymore. Why do you think they made the new FR cosomogly? It was just servering the connections to other D&D worlds.
boards 04-18-07, 11:53 PM	I have no problems with elves being completely different on Ebberon to FR. By my understanding (admitidly limited) Ebbreon is a completely different world to FR, with little to know connection other than mechanics. It is in a completely different universe that has different gods so elves there are not the same as elves in Faerun. To say that Elves shouldnt exist there is like saying that elves shouldnt exist in Midkemia (Raymond E Feist's world) or any other fantasy world that doesnt belong in the Dungeons and Dragons world. Ebberon may be made by D&D but it should be seen as completely seperate from Faerun as Midkemia is. The Selderine have never appeared in Ebberon's history and nor should they in any future time. I quite like several of the Ebberon elves cultures but I'm not a fan of the Arenal simply because I never became a fan of Undead/Deathless beings.
Marcus Majarra 04-19-07, 12:25 AM	If you assume that Elves evolved as normal races. They did not. They were divinely created in FR in the image of their patron deities, which are different from one to the next. For instance, a race fashioned in the image of Thor would not be the same as one fashioned in the image of Freya. This is where the argument falls short. Maybe elves were created in FR to match their patron deities, but this is not essentially true for all settings. Creationist theory doesn't forcibly apply to any gaming world. As for racial evolution, this is a difficult argument to gauge, as evolution is an extremely slow process. "**** sapiens sapiens," or the man of today, has existed for 250,000 years. Assuming that every century sees four generations (a very rough average), we're talking about 12,500 generations of man since the species dawned. If we convert this to elven standards (assuming the average elf will live 550 years or so), we're talking about nearly 7 million years of existence for any given elven race. Now, correct me if I'm wrong, but when I last read LEoF, Realms history didn't go that far back. So I very much doubt evolution is a serious factor when considering subraces. Heck, I'd consider outright creationism to be a more accurate representation here. That's the main difference: the Elves of Eberron reflect a more human societal evolution than those of Faerun, because the latter were created as they were and set down in Faerun via divine hands. This is true, assuming the subraces are indeed created by divine hands. It still doesn't explain the lack of cultural information for Faerun's vast number of subraces. Neither way is BETTER than the other, per se. The fact that Eberron is completely disconnected from the other worlds, however, makes it hard for me to believe that Elves would have evolved there, when they were created by the Seldarine everywhere else in the multiverse. That's why for my own world, I'm not even including humans, let alone Elves or Dwarves or the like. Actually, the elves were created by the core D&D Seldarine (printed in Races of the Wild). While it does bear some commonalities with the FR Seldarine, it is not the same pantheon, as core elven creation myth differs from FR elven creation myth. And while it can be stated that in at least two worlds, elves were created by one Seldarine or another, extending this idea onto other worlds as a general rule serves no purpose. Eberron opted for a different creation theory. Dragonlance also offers a different creation theory for elves (and the setting co-existed with the FR back in TSR days; heck a trilogy involves both FR and Dragonlance). In any case, this has nothing to do with my praise of Eberron I stated above. What I liked about Eberron over the Realms was that Eberron invested more into making races more culturally rich, as opposed to diverse. Come to think of it, I think this is why my favorite FR sourcebook is LEoF. This book's purpose is to detail the cultural richness of certain parts of FR's history, and I think the setting would be far more attractive if the cultural richness of present-day Faerun would also be illustrated in future publications.
GothicDan 04-19-07, 08:46 AM	You see that is the old way of thinking. For better or worse the multiverse of the D&D worlds no longer exist. It isn't the fact that Ebberron is disconected it is the fact none of the worlds are connected anymore. Why do you think they made the new FR cosomogly? It was just servering the connections to other D&D worlds. Just because a way of thinking is old doesn't necessarily make it wrong. If I'm playing FR AND Eberron, I'm not going to say, "Oops, FR just disappeared, there is only Eberron." I'd just feel like I was trying to tell a really bad joke.
GothicDan 04-19-07, 08:53 AM	This is where the argument falls short. Maybe elves were created in FR to match their patron deities, but this is not essentially true for all settings. Creationist theory doesn't forcibly apply to any gaming world. Well, I know it happened in FR, Greyhawk, and Dragonlance (Paladine created Elves in the latter). Not sure how it worked in Athas or Mystara. :) Now, correct me if I'm wrong, but when I last read LEoF, Realms history didn't go that far back. So I very much doubt evolution is a serious factor when considering subraces. Heck, I'd consider outright creationism to be a more accurate representation here. We definitely agree there. I'm glad that someone else around here knows what "evolution" actually means, rather than trying to use it as a catch-all term for "change." :) This is true, assuming the subraces are indeed created by divine hands. It still doesn't explain the lack of cultural information for Faerun's vast number of subraces. There is a good amount of cultural information on the Elves of Faerun, as far as I knew. Just look at the amount of information that's being compiled in the Elven Netbook. It's just not as brought together into one source as it may be in Eberron, because it was detailed in bursts and trickles over decades of publication. Actually, the elves were created by the core D&D Seldarine (printed in Races of the Wild). While it does bear some commonalities with the FR Seldarine, it is not the same pantheon, as core elven creation myth differs from FR elven creation myth. Well, of course, when such information was printed (original Elven origins), they WERE the same Seldarine. And while it can be stated that in at least two worlds, elves were created by one Seldarine or another, extending this idea onto other worlds as a general rule serves no purpose. Eberron opted for a different creation theory. Dragonlance also offers a different creation theory for elves (and the setting co-existed with the FR back in TSR days; heck a trilogy involves both FR and Dragonlance). And, again, dual intelligent design is more likely than simultaneous evolution - to me, at least, as a scientist. Probabilities rapidly start approaching 0 when you try to measure the exact change for anything in an infinite multiverse. In any case, this has nothing to do with my praise of Eberron I stated above. What I liked about Eberron over the Realms was that Eberron invested more into making races more culturally rich, as opposed to diverse. Again, I have to say that we differ there. One of my loves of FR is the Tel'Quessir - specifically, the CULTURE of the Sun Elves. Come to think of it, I think this is why my favorite FR sourcebook is LEoF. This book's purpose is to detail the cultural richness of certain parts of FR's history, and I think the setting would be far more attractive if the cultural richness of present-day Faerun would also be illustrated in future publications. Some of my favorites were the novel Evermeet and the Cormanthyr sourcebook for the same reason. :)
GothicDan 04-19-07, 08:54 AM	Again, I'll also note: as far as I'm concerned, Eberron WOULD be connected to the rest of the multiverse, for any game I'd run in it. Just like Dragonlance would be, and FR would be again. That's just a personal preference thing.
Fabius Maximus 04-19-07, 01:24 PM	Same with me here. But it would be even more remote than Athas, because some gods imprisoned a certain Elder God of nihilism within it's Crystal Sphere who's playing around with it and enjoys wreaking havoc till he can get out...
MarkusTay63 04-19-07, 04:14 PM	Well, I know it happened in FR, Greyhawk, and Dragonlance (Paladine created Elves in the latter). Not sure how it worked in Athas or Mystara.I'm not sure what the evolution was, but they had immortals on Mystara, not gods, and the Seldarine were not present at all. Believe it or not, the Elves of Athas had evolved from the original Athasian race - the Halflings! So did every other race - weird, huh? We definitely agree there. I'm glad that someone else around here knows what "evolution" actually means, rather than trying to use it as a catch-all term for "change." Dan, Dan, Dan... :nonono: The word 'evolve' is related to, but not the same thing as, Evolution. Evolution is a scientific concept that prescribes to the theory that everything in the universe has evolved from some central point (the big bang, which BTW was actually introduced by the Catholic church), and through millions of years, chemical interactions, and environmental conditions life as we know has arisen and taken on the multitudinous forms we know. To 'evolve' simply means to grow in some way, usually for the better, and become something not quite new, but different then before. You really need to watch more pokémon, Dan. ;) And Elves do 'evolve' (as in change), just not through the normal evolutionary processes that humans do. They can become sea Elves just by walking into the water and muttering a few prayers to Sashelas! Unlike naturally occurring races, Elves mutate within a single lifetime; it's one of their greatest unsung abilities. This adaptability is gotten into in the CBoE, and is most noticeably represented by the Elven ability to withstand climactic extremes. The Dwarves of FR have evolved even more then the Elves in some cases, with both jungle (wild) Dwarves and Arctic Dwarves, and even weirder ones like the Urdunnir and the Korobukuro. A created race... THAT EVOLVES! There is a good amount of cultural information on the Elves of Faerun, as far as I knew. Just look at the amount of information that's being compiled in the Elven Netbook. It's just not as brought together into one source as it may be in Eberron, because it was detailed in bursts and trickles over decades of publication.But you do understand his point, right? If you say you are a certain kind of Elf in Eberron, you know exactly where he is from. IN FR, knowing someone is a Moon Elf tells you nothing! True, being a Star Elf would give a region, and perhaps the Avariel, but beyond that you really have no clue about an Elf just because you know his race. Some Sea Elves breathe salt water, some fresh. They could have said one has bluish skin and the other greenish, but they didin't bother. Instead they say that both kinds have both kinds of skin tones (something I changed IMG, BTW). FR is more like our world because it is chaotic and you can't ever second-guess someone because of his race. In Eberron, you can. That doesn't make it better, it just gives it a more cohesive feel. Once the folks in Eberron become more metropolitan (something you would think would have already occurred, given the amazing means of transportation), and start spreading their various cultures into new areas, then all bets will be off. Well, of course, when such information was printed (original Elven origins), they WERE the same Seldarine.Perhaps, but AFAIK Lolth is still a demon Queen in Greyhawk. She is the ORIGINAL Lolth (and still the best :P ), and she was worshipped in a Temple (of Elemental Evil) along with several other demon lords. GH, BTW, did not differentiate between demon lords and demi-gods at first, and both had about the same abilities. It wasn't until all the religious hate in the 80's (when Devils became Batezu and Demons became Tanari) that we saw a de-powering of the fiends. Looking at the 1980 DD book right now, I see she had already made it to lesser god status, I guess in order to keep her spell-granting abilities intact (it wouldn't have looked good to the 'press' if a Demon was able to grant 'devine' spells). The Seldarine (gods of the Elves) in that book consisted of Corellon, Deep Sashelas, Lolth, and Rillifane Rallathil. That means until the the worlds were joined in 2e, that was the extent of the pantheon. And, again, dual intelligent design is more likely than simultaneous evolution - to me, at least, as a scientist. Probabilities rapidly start approaching 0 when you try to measure the exact change for anything in an infinite multiverse.Chaos Theory? ;) I personally perscribe to the theory in the Well of Souls series of novels, and base everything in my games off of that. If you hadn't read them, all the creatures in the univers were allowed to evolve on their own, but up until a certain point they were just considerred 'animals'. When they reached a certain point of evolution, GOD placed the souls into the forms he found most desirable and they became 'people'. That is an extremely simplified explanation of what actually occurs in the books, and they are well worth the read (god is a Jew BTW :D - sorta ). In any case, this has nothing to do with my praise of Eberron I stated above.Nor mine. Again, I have to say that we differ there. One of my loves of FR is the Tel'Quessir - specifically, the CULTURE of the Sun Elves.:yuck: Obviously your an elitist. I personally, am a revolutionary. Different strokes.... Some of my favorites were the novel Evermeet and the Cormanthyr sourcebook for the same reason. :)Good choices, and I would add both Elminster in Hell and Blackstaff, not so much for the stories (although they were good too), but for all of those 'flashbacks' that gave us little peeks into the Realms past. A VERY cool thing. :cool:
Marcus Majarra 04-20-07, 12:46 AM	There is a good amount of cultural information on the Elves of Faerun, as far as I knew. Just look at the amount of information that's being compiled in the Elven Netbook. It's just not as brought together into one source as it may be in Eberron, because it was detailed in bursts and trickles over decades of publication. I see an inherent problem in this. The information from the Elven Netbook was compiled from a vast multitude of sources that span at least three editions of the setting. The sad thing is that this information is not cohesively illustrated in actual publications, which makes FR hard to follow, from a cultural point of view. The fact that such a netbook exists and that dedicated players defer to it is evidence that the actual publication lacks cohesiveness. This cohesiveness is present in Eberron sourcebooks, and I believe this to be a strong point for the system. FR is more like our world because it is chaotic and you can't ever second-guess someone because of his race. In Eberron, you can. This statement is very untrue, especially when stating that you can't ever second-guess someone because of race in our world. Perhaps our world does feature locations that do have a more metropolitan feel (almost universally in first-world countries), but racial prejudice is far from absent in our world. The same is true with Eberron (even within the same race: many Thranes hold grudges against Karrns and vice versa, following the Last War), and even with FR (although this aspect is not illustrated quite clearly for the most part). And while racial prejudice might exist in Eberron, the world does feature metropolitan locales, Sharn being the prime example. It's essentially Khorvaire's Waterdeep in terms of racial tolerance.
Fabius Maximus 04-20-07, 06:27 AM	Exactly. In Eberron, prejudice raises from affiliation, not from race. (Except the overly monstrous races and gnomes. No one in his right mind trusts Droaamites and the little scheming buggers.) So you can have an aundairian elf mistrusting a thranish dwarf, because there are still border disputes between the two nations. Brelanders distrust Darguul goblins, because they betrayed them. On the other hand, you can "trust" that a Valenar elf will more likely split you open than talk to you. ;) The same happens to be the case with Warforged encountered in the Mournland.
MarkusTay63 04-20-07, 05:36 PM	I did NOT mean what I said in a bad way. As you have just pointed out, there are certain things one CAN expect depending upon a person's place of origin. That flows right into race, since all of the races (aside from the humans) come from particular places, you usually know how to interact with them based on appearances alone. As with any sentient species, you will have extremes at both ends of the spectrum and occasionally make a faux pas, but you have SOMETHING to base your expectations on. There is nothing wrong with that. There are places in Faerūn where Orcs are hailed as heroes (by humans), Dark Elves help to protect the innocent, Ogres help to protect local human villages from monsters (in Erlkazar). There's even an Illithid hero (paladin?) somewhere, but I forget off the top of my head where. If you count space, there's even a beholder that owns a bar, that you can tell all your troubles to while you get drunk. There are surface Elven regions where humans would be killed on sight. Places where Dwarves will enslave you and sell you to the Drow, and feral halflings that will put an arrow through you faster then you could blink (just like on Eberron ;)). And as usual, you never know what to expect when dealing with humans, but thats the same on both worlds. The history of FR goes back 25,000 years! Thats longer then our real world (where pre-history starts about 12,000 years ago). In all that time everybody has been mixing it up, and all bets are off. That's all I'm saying, you can't go by ANY preconception in FR. Both ways are good, just different styles of game.
Marcus Majarra 04-21-07, 02:13 AM	Actually, the setting does go by and encourage preconceptions. I don't remember, for example, Drizz't being very welcome in surface communities when he left the Underdark; similarly, I doubt any drow elf will receive a warm welcome (if a welcome at all) in any surface community unless that community has positive history with drow. I also doubt red wizards of Thay are perceived as well-intentioned benefactors anywhere. In any case, the FRCS suggests the Realms aren't as cosmopolitan as you might think. In most geographic areas, non-humans are minorities (often of the non-visible variety). The FRCS also hints at general perceptions of the various subraces that are not in the PHB (for example, sun elves are seen as the most civilized and haughty elves, preferring to remain separate from humankind and nonelven races).
Khaelieth 04-21-07, 10:02 AM	The FRCS also hints at general perceptions of the various subraces that are not in the PHB (for example, sun elves are seen as the most civilized and haughty elves, preferring to remain separate from humankind and nonelven races). They ARE the most civilised! Just wait, one day the four sons of Vyshaan will return and teach the other elves how to be elven! That the humans must be exterminated is just a bonus... I move about the populations a bit - You won't find elves selling fake hats in some square in Waterdeep in my campaign!
Stigger 04-21-07, 12:08 PM	Why would elves be selling fake hats in Waterdeep? That perception just never even vaguely entered my mind... :blink:
Karsus the Mad 04-21-07, 01:57 PM	Fake hats with contingent dominate person enchantments. It's just one of hundreds of methods they've used to wipe out humans. It fails everytime of course, as does all their other plans of extermination, but they keep trying.
GothicDan 04-21-07, 06:07 PM	I see an inherent problem in this. The information from the Elven Netbook was compiled from a vast multitude of sources that span at least three editions of the setting. The sad thing is that this information is not cohesively illustrated in actual publications, which makes FR hard to follow, from a cultural point of view. The fact that such a netbook exists and that dedicated players defer to it is evidence that the actual publication lacks cohesiveness. This cohesiveness is present in Eberron sourcebooks, and I believe this to be a strong point for the system. Well, I'd love if TSR/WotC had found it acceptable to print chapters upon Elven lore, history, behavior, cultural variations, etc., but, simply put, WotC does not think that such a book would sell well. At least, that's the sort of answers that have been inferred. Is it different in Eberron material? And if so, why?
GothicDan 04-21-07, 06:09 PM	And I'll also note that in the real world, we still see plenty of stereotyping and racism going on within nations. We can't even get over people having different color skin or different shaped eyes. If you're going for socially realistic, I think FR is a little better (since it has some of both, to varying degrees, depending on the area you're looking at). In some areas (cities like Waterdeep and Silverymoon for example, and for a time old Myth Drannor), races are more openly accepted, just like it is in real life centers of culture (London, New York, Paris, old Rome, etc.). And in more rural areas or uncouth areas, which have little exposure to foreign elements and are often on more dangerous frontiers (lots of places in FR), there is more racism and mistrust (like much of the Southern US, or the westeron squatters or the first arrivals to the New World by the colonists, against the Native Americans - or many, many others).
Stigger 04-22-07, 07:57 AM	Social realism on earth can't really be applied to the Realms since the social conditions that existed on Earth are, for the most part, massively different from Toril. You can extrapolate a lot of information I suppose, but consider the implications of the Volo's Guides and the massive amounts of trade (not just mercantile) that just did not exist on such a scale here on Earth. Races of Faerun with regards to humanity shows a lot of relatively peaceful interbreeding and integrating, that I just don't think supports the idea of an inherently racist society. Which of course is not to say there aren't exceptions, the Calishites in particular coming to mind most glaringly... Call it unrealistic, but the societal conditions that helped form Earth into what it is are just so radically different I don't think we can do much more than postulate how it would 'really' be with any authority beyond pure speculation.
MarkusTay63 04-22-07, 02:50 PM	Well, I'd love if TSR/WotC had found it acceptable to print chapters upon Elven lore, history, behavior, cultural variations, etc., but, simply put, WotC does not think that such a book would sell well. At least, that's the sort of answers that have been inferred. Is it different in Eberron material? And if so, why?The problem Dan, as I see it, is that you have two (3?) different groups of Elves in Eberron, and it's fairly easy to describe them in detail. Same goes for the other groups as well - I think the Dwarves only come from one place, if I remember correctly. Despite the other Marcus' protests to the contrary, the LIMITED nature of racial co-mingling (not mixing) has allowed the designers to concentrate on each group. FR is just too expansive for this sort of treatment, unfortunately. A tribe of Wild Elves living in the High forest is EXTREMELY different from one living the Raurin Desert (and there is one); you would need an entire book just to cover all the Wood Elf cultures! How many games do YOU know of that required THREE seperate volumes to detail the setting's Gods, hmmmmm? :D Sometimes FR is too big for it's own good. :(
Marcus Majarra 04-22-07, 04:35 PM	Sometimes FR is too big for it's own good. You hit the nail on the head. When I look at the Realms, I see a quantity over quality approach. You've got dozens of nations, races, subraces, religions, and whatnot. While this does leave plenty of room for great variety, it seems like WotC is not giving lots of focus on what's already there, and simply giving more options. With Eberron, it's the other way around. The only books that actually do expand available options are Secrets of Xen'drik and Secrets of Sarlona, which delve into two other continents that aren't entirely easy of access. The fact that they're hard to reach justifies the need to expand on new cultures (and I have to admit these two books did great). Of course, this kind of approach is difficult to apply to the Realms, as most of them are part of the same land mass, and from the Sword Coast all the way to the Endless Wastes, overland and sea travel are relatively accessible. The only places worthy of notice are the realms that seem self-contained, from a geographical point of view. Prime examples include Thay (two plateaus, with the upper one being difficult to access for non-natives), Rashemen (self-contained within a magical forest), Halruaa (self-contained within a mountain range), and the Great Rift (the area's name speaks for itself). Nonetheless, this does beg the following question: if there are self-contained realms that are worthy of mention as vastly different from a cultural point of view, how exactly do you define the mainstream realms?
MarkusTay63 04-22-07, 05:43 PM	We call them sub-races. :rolleye2: and that is one thing I would like to see go bye-bye. Have the four 'core' Elf classes (five counting the Drow), with perhap a minor distintion between the two types of Sea Elves (fresh and Salt) and the Wild Elf sub-race of the Wood Elves. Wild Elves should not be considered a seperate 'species' from Wood Elves, they are just Sylvan Elves who have chosen to live a simpler lifestyle. Avariel are Gold Elves with wings, and Star Elves are just reclusive Silver Elves - all this sub-race nonsence is merely to 'pad-out' the books. A little more quality and a lot less 'padding' would go a long way to simplifying this game. :bored:
Stigger 04-23-07, 01:35 AM	Why does it need to be simplified? Some people like complexity, me being one of them I'll state. I like the idea of the non-human races being just as diverse, if not moreso, as the human populations, personally. If they're all simplified, you end up with cookie cutter characters, at least that's the way I would view it. Human ethnicities are hardly uniform where access to travel is relatively easy, so why would non-human ethnicities be any different?
Bluenose 04-23-07, 08:18 AM	Why does it need to be simplified? Some people like complexity, me being one of them I'll state. I like the idea of the non-human races being just as diverse, if not moreso, as the human populations, personally. If they're all simplified, you end up with cookie cutter characters, at least that's the way I would view it. Human ethnicities are hardly uniform where access to travel is relatively easy, so why would non-human ethnicities be any different? Does it have to be by way of sub-races, though? There seems to be a clash between the idea of culturally-different elves and mechanically-different elves. While I'm quite happy to see as many separate cultures as the world has need for/can justify, it's my experience that some people simply use the mechanical differences to give their character an edge. After all, why play a moon-elf wizard when a sun-elf has significant advantages in the game mechanics? :rolleyes:
Stigger 04-23-07, 03:19 PM	So because some people take advantage of a subrace's mechanical differences, it invalidates the entire concept? That mean we should get rid of races in general and just go all human because some people take certain races to gain an advantage for a particular class build? You're talking about a problem with a certain style of player, which ultimately has nothing to do with the lore or the mechanics that express that lore in game terms. What people do with the ruleset doesn't automatically break or invalidate them... any gaming system can be really broken if you have a player looking to exploit it. If they're not playing within the spirit of the rules, then that's a sign of a much larger problem beyond a poorly worded rule, and nothing is going to fix it, at least in terms of mechanics.
Marcus Majarra 04-24-07, 01:26 AM	Correct me if I'm wrong, but you're the one who suggested the idea of "non-human races being just as diverse, if not moreso, as the human populations." Bluenose's question is valid in this instance, since humans, as a general rule, do not have subraces, and yet remain a diverse lot. Are subraces really needed for diversity? What can be gained from subracing? What is lost by not doing so?
Stigger 04-24-07, 02:01 AM	Well, really, if you look at the various ethnicities, humans do have subraces in most respects. The various other racial subraces bonuses are simply rearranging the bonuses the standard race would normally get in a slightly different way. Humans don't get those bonuses in the first place, but they do get the bonus feat, so it really doesn't make much difference in the long run. Its all balanced out in the end one way or another. Add in the whole concept of regional feats and those human subraces really start to come into play. Just two different ways of expressing it, but both methods still expressing it. Sure humans have a bit more flexibility and don't have to necessarily express them specifically, but ultimately its still there regardless. Do we specifically need them for diversity? Not really per se, in a technical sense, since it could be accomplished purely via roleplaying. Does it add flavor and give a mechanical way of expressing certain 'specialties & tendencies' of the subrace, absolutely. Which answers the issue of what is gained. What is lost, well depending on how you view that mechanical expression, either nothing or everything. If you like to approach subraces as a purely roleplaying outlook issue, there's no point whatsoever to having anything other than a cosmetic approach to subraces (eye & hair color, etc, favored classes, etc). If you want a more mechanical sytem of it, such as the gold elves tendency towards being more intelligent and the like, then everything is lost by not using them, since you're not going to really reflect the subracial tendencies and strengths, in favor of the 'plain vanilla' model of an elf. Sure, those tendencies do tend to give them edges for certain builds. But, they also make other builds less attractive. Sun Elves make great wizards, true, but they aren't such great choices for fighting builds, so does that automatically mean that no one in their right mind will choose them for a melee/ranged build? As I said earlier, if you're complaining about someone choosing a race, or not choosing a race, simply for a better build and ignoring the roleplaying aspects, then your complaint isn't about the rules, its about the player. My point about doing away with races beyond humans entirely stems from the point that other races receive bonuses and penalties to certain attributes. If we're going to get rid of the mechanical differences between various subraces, the logical extension of that is to get rid of racial bonuses and penalties altogether, since by that reasoning, no one would play any race that wasn't optimal for their class choice.
MarkusTay63 04-24-07, 02:42 AM	Another point for stigger! I never really thought of it that way - with the extra feat you can take a regional feat, which in a way is the human way of seperating the sub-races. It's what sets them apart from everyone else - there ability to aquire skills quickly, so it is only reasonable that that game mechanic would be used in lieu of racial bonuses to stats. Nice catch, it's always nice to see that the rules occasionaly make sense. ;)
GothicDan 04-24-07, 03:46 AM	I, for one, do not like overly-diverse 'demihuman' races. If a race grows more and more versatile, and less specialized ("stereotypical"), they grow more like actual humans in terms of mindset, psychology, and the like. I really like the innate characteristics of various races - the effects of longevity on the neurology and memory, innate connections to the Weave, adversities to certain dweomers or auras or what have you, whatever supernatural/'illogical' restrictions that make a race that race - being as clearly defined as whether or not a human can fly or see in the dark without aid of magical enhancement. That's one of the reasons I'm always fierce to defend the Elves' creation by deities rather than evolution: it accounts for many of their restrictions that over the years may have seemed 'arbitrary,' but are now already built into the culture as it stands.
Stigger 04-24-07, 04:07 AM	Well, if humans are considered a successful species, and by their domination of the Realms as a whole, I'd say they were pretty successful, it'd be a mark of utter idiocy if the other major races didn't adapt and find ways to make themselves just as successful as well. Why would the non-human deities want their children to be rolled over by humanity if they could at all help it? If orcs are capable of it, albeit in a limited and probably futile way, why shouldn't the other races be capable of it? Who doesn't want their children successful afterall. If that means adaptation and emulation of some of humanities more successful tactics, then by all means, let them do so. Were I a deity of one of those 'other' races, I'd certainly be encouraging my kids to do it, while maintaining as much unique cultural heritage as I could. But if it came down to a question of survival versus culture, I'd take survival any day.
GothicDan 04-24-07, 05:03 AM	Well, if humans are considered a successful species, and by their domination of the Realms as a whole, I'd say they were pretty successful, it'd be a mark of utter idiocy if the other major races didn't adapt and find ways to make themselves just as successful as well. Are you referring to physical adaption or social adaption? Physically speaking, simply put, in my mind, I had always considered certain things 'built in' to how demihumans were designed by their patron deities, part of the physics of the universe itself, so to speak. While they CAN change or alter these characteristics, it would be very rare and difficult to do (as was reflected in previous definitions). Why would the non-human deities want their children to be rolled over by humanity if they could at all help it? If orcs are capable of it, albeit in a limited and probably futile way, why shouldn't the other races be capable of it? Orcs are not very capable of it. Their penchent for chaos, their crude, barbaric deities, and their low mental attributes have kept them on horde-only status at best for thousands of years. Who doesn't want their children successful afterall. If that means adaptation and emulation of some of humanities more successful tactics, then by all means, let them do so. Were I a deity of one of those 'other' races, I'd certainly be encouraging my kids to do it, while maintaining as much unique cultural heritage as I could. Well, if -you- were one of those deities, you probably wouldn't have designed them with such idiosyncratic characteristics in mind in the first place, would you? Heh. A large part of mythology, religion, and sanctimonious symbolism is arbitrariness - 'random' mystical numbers, random restrictions, strange limitations, and the like. When one eschews all of these things in favor of appealing to whatever is immediately, physically the most efficient way of performing, one starts on the way of philosophies like empiricism (which I like). But if it came down to a question of survival versus culture, I'd take survival any day. Okay. I would, too. I'm not sure how that's relevant, though, given our personal life choices have absolutely no bearing on how fantasy deities and subraces function and evolve (or don't).
Stigger 04-24-07, 06:58 AM	Social adaptation mostly, but physical adaptation as well, to a certain extent. Not that hard on the physical end if one takes things like the Thunder Blessing into account. The decline of the elven people, presuming absolute divine origin of the elves to be true, is largely based on not being able to replenish their numbers in the face of massive competition by rapidly breeding competitors. Every loss counts, so they can't afford to take too much action, so they are marginalized until they either find a way around that breeding problem via necromancy or divine intervention, or they are pushed farther and farther into extinction, until one day they're just gone. So, apart from a necromantic approach, they're pretty much going to have rely on Corellon to give them a boon like the Thunder Blessing, but on a larger scale, or they're pretty much consigned to the slow death. In regards to orcs, the breeding thing makes them successful under the definitions that the orc pantheon seems to subscribe to... defeated frequently, but always able to bounce back and try one more time to kill everyone else. Quantity versus quality approach there mostly, which is why I put in that futile caveat there. Not like the orc pantheon is the brightest apple on the tree afterall, so it doesn't have to make a whole lot of sense. Long term planning has never seemed to be their strong suit. And no, I wouldn't have designed them that way at all... well, at least not to the extent that they seem to have been. I'd disagree with the 'randomness' of those limitations and restrictions, since a good number of them have at least some basis in survival traits. As to evolving towards philosophies like empricism... not necessarily. Might be true if the deities were as unresponsive as Earths proved to be, but with them active and relevant to the daily lives of their people, I'd say it wasn't a definite consequence, or even really that likely in a lot of respects, since there's no real reason to discard those aspects of religion. Though thinking about it, I suppose that empiricism could be a possible turn of events, just with a much different meaning than it has on Earth, especially since the Gods would very much be demonstrably proveable facts. Not sure at all that it would be as coldly logical and as devoid of cultural/religious overtones, so I suppose its not really the same thing at all, though close enough to count I guess. Not sure where that went really, kinda got away from me there, but its making some sense to me at the moment, so I suppose I'll keep it there. As to how survival is relevant, that was more aimed at the idea that a deity would do whatever was in the best interest of their people in the long term, regardless of whether or not things 'just weren't done that way' normally. I see that as particularly true of chaotic deities... such as the Seldarine. Tradition and hide-bound adherence to social mores are more of an aspect of lawful societies, at least the way I tend to view them, so I don't really see a conflict with the elves adapting to put themselves on more even footing with humanity and the other rapidly breeding species out there. Pretty much the function I see the Wood Elves fulfilling in a lot of respects really. Adapt or die I guess is a good way of putting it... I just can't see the Seldarine letting the elves gasp their last over some point of tradition and culture. If the Morndinsamman can suck it up and provide the Thunder Blessing, I can't see the Seldarine just sitting there and watching their children wither on the vine.
GothicDan 04-24-07, 08:41 AM	The decline of the elven people, presuming absolute divine origin of the elves to be true, is largely based on not being able to replenish their numbers in the face of massive competition by rapidly breeding competitors. Every loss counts, so they can't afford to take too much action, so they are marginalized until they either find a way around that breeding problem via necromancy or divine intervention, or they are pushed farther and farther into extinction, until one day they're just gone. So, apart from a necromantic approach, they're pretty much going to have rely on Corellon to give them a boon like the Thunder Blessing, but on a larger scale, or they're pretty much consigned to the slow death. I think a factor that is just as detrimental to them, if not more so, is the fact that they take so long to fully mature, physically and in their culture's eyes. With Evermeet sporting 1.6 million Elves, I really don't think it's so much fear of losing numbers that bothers them, as much as it's fear of losing centuries of life if they go into wreckless conflicts. In regards to orcs, the breeding thing makes them successful under the definitions that the orc pantheon seems to subscribe to... defeated frequently, but always able to bounce back and try one more time to kill everyone else. Quantity versus quality approach there mostly, which is why I put in that futile caveat there. Not like the orc pantheon is the brightest apple on the tree afterall, so it doesn't have to make a whole lot of sense. Long term planning has never seemed to be their strong suit. Having more babies isn't really the answer to remaining a superpower. Germany's population is actually in steady decline and it's still doing pretty well. In the case of the Elves, your typical soldier (wizard or fighter) is probably high enough level to take out 10 Human ones, anyway. And no, I wouldn't have designed them that way at all... well, at least not to the extent that they seem to have been. I'd disagree with the 'randomness' of those limitations and restrictions, since a good number of them have at least some basis in survival traits. But, again, perfect efficiency would take a lot of the fantasy out of things - at least it would take it out of FR's feel, at least. For instance, didn't it seem 'arbitrary' when Eowyn could slay the Witch-King where no man could? (I know it was because of her sword, but still.) How about the fact that hobbits, for some 'random' reason, were less susceptible to the temptations of the One Ring? How about the myths of a Leprechaun's pot of gold being at the end of a rainbow? (He could keep it safer elsewhere!) Or the idea that if you caught X or Y fantasy creature, it had to grant you wishes or perform a favor or whatever, under supernatural proclamation? Step on a crack, break your mother's back? As to how survival is relevant, that was more aimed at the idea that a deity would do whatever was in the best interest of their people in the long term, regardless of whether or not things 'just weren't done that way' normally. I see that as particularly true of chaotic deities... such as the Seldarine. So you basically are saying that any deity (and that deities followers) would do whatever is possible to achieve victory or overall domination in a given situation? That sounds like Neutral talk to me, with some definite possibilities of Evil (see the Crown Wars). Tradition and hide-bound adherence to social mores are more of an aspect of lawful societies, at least the way I tend to view them, so I don't really see a conflict with the elves adapting to put themselves on more even footing with humanity and the other rapidly breeding species out there. So, basically, you mean to take away all restrictions from non-human races? Pretty much the function I see the Wood Elves fulfilling in a lot of respects really. Adapt or die I guess is a good way of putting it... I just can't see the Seldarine letting the elves gasp their last over some point of tradition and culture. If the Morndinsamman can suck it up and provide the Thunder Blessing, I can't see the Seldarine just sitting there and watching their children wither on the vine. The Elves really aren't doing poorly. I'm not sure where you're getting the idea that they're 'whithering and dying.' And, hey! Why doesn't EVERY deity-head do this? Why don't they all give them +2 to AC, +2 to all Stats, +1 on all Saves, and a free resurrection while they're at it? This fits in with your idea of 'deities should be able to do anything to help their followers survive,' but it illustrates the fact that there are restrictions for a reason. Elves are already blessed with so many perks (taking into account the CBoE and Cormanthyr) that a lot of people hate them, and you want to give them MORE?
Bluenose 04-24-07, 09:38 AM	Well, really, if you look at the various ethnicities, humans do have subraces in most respects. The various other racial subraces bonuses are simply rearranging the bonuses the standard race would normally get in a slightly different way. Humans don't get those bonuses in the first place, but they do get the bonus feat, so it really doesn't make much difference in the long run. Its all balanced out in the end one way or another. Add in the whole concept of regional feats and those human subraces really start to come into play. Just two different ways of expressing it, but both methods still expressing it. Sure humans have a bit more flexibility and don't have to necessarily express them specifically, but ultimately its still there regardless. I think that that's partly my point. You can make perfectly acceptable cultural differences within a race by using regional feats, racial feats, preferred classes, etc. You don't need to create a sub-race with a significant mechanical advantage to do this. Which makes it peculiar that that's the way it's done for any race other than humans. Do we specifically need them for diversity? Not really per se, in a technical sense, since it could be accomplished purely via roleplaying. Does it add flavor and give a mechanical way of expressing certain 'specialties & tendencies' of the subrace, absolutely. Which answers the issue of what is gained. What is lost, well depending on how you view that mechanical expression, either nothing or everything. If you like to approach subraces as a purely roleplaying outlook issue, there's no point whatsoever to having anything other than a cosmetic approach to subraces (eye & hair color, etc, favored classes, etc). If you want a more mechanical sytem of it, such as the gold elves tendency towards being more intelligent and the like, then everything is lost by not using them, since you're not going to really reflect the subracial tendencies and strengths, in favor of the 'plain vanilla' model of an elf. My preference would be to have one "basic model" of elf, then differentiate if necessary in other ways. My personal preference would be to give every 1st level character a free regional or racial feat to reflect their background. On that basis Sun elves would show their cultural preference for arcane magic by being allowed to select a feat such as Practiced Spellcaster (Intelligence) rather than through giving them a physical difference to other elven sub-races. Sure, those tendencies do tend to give them edges for certain builds. But, they also make other builds less attractive. Sun Elves make great wizards, true, but they aren't such great choices for fighting builds, so does that automatically mean that no one in their right mind will choose them for a melee/ranged build? As I said earlier, if you're complaining about someone choosing a race, or not choosing a race, simply for a better build and ignoring the roleplaying aspects, then your complaint isn't about the rules, its about the player. Actually, I think it is with the rules. Particularly with less experienced players I find they have a tendency to look at rule mechanics first and think about roleplaying after. I really think it's a lot simpler to explain a cultural tendency to do something than a physical difference. That's why I see feats, preferred classes, and maybe a few other features such as weapon proficiences as better than a sub-race with physical differences. My point about doing away with races beyond humans entirely stems from the point that other races receive bonuses and penalties to certain attributes. If we're going to get rid of the mechanical differences between various subraces, the logical extension of that is to get rid of racial bonuses and penalties altogether, since by that reasoning, no one would play any race that wasn't optimal for their class choice. I don't think that sub-races are the way to do this, at least not as implemented. We are getting just a little off topic, though. ON TOPIC: I still like Eberron's goblins. They've got style. :)
Stigger 04-24-07, 04:01 PM	I think a factor that is just as detrimental to them, if not more so, is the fact that they take so long to fully mature, physically and in their culture's eyes. With Evermeet sporting 1.6 million Elves, I really don't think it's so much fear of losing numbers that bothers them, as much as it's fear of losing centuries of life if they go into wreckless conflicts. *The Elves really aren't doing poorly. I'm not sure where you're getting the idea that they're 'whithering and dying.' *out of order I know, but I think its better addressed here than below And 1.6 million elves is what.... maybe a third of Calimshan's population on a good day? I seem to recall the elves beginning to be outnumbered by their Drow counterparts as well. If that's not a decline, I'm not sure what is. As to the time it takes to reach maturity, I'd include that in the slow population replacement problem, since its kinda the result of that incredibly long life span. The losing centuries of life bit is a little off though I think. Unless the elves are starting those conflicts, they're not that wreckless, they're just unwanted defensive conflicts. I'd say their reasoning for not wanting those conflicts is that they don't want to spend elven lives in something they didn't want to engage in to begin with... though maybe we're saying the same thing there. Either way, the more they adopt this attitude, the more they adopt an isolationist policy, the less they matter in the world, and the less they can influence the world beyond their immediate surroundings. Either way it ultimately puts them in a untenable position that leaves them in a position to get run over, figuratively speaking, possibly literally in some cases, by the more successful races. Having more babies isn't really the answer to remaining a superpower. Germany's population is actually in steady decline and it's still doing pretty well. In the case of the Elves, your typical soldier (wizard or fighter) is probably high enough level to take out 10 Human ones, anyway. Well, I didn't say rapid reproduction was necessarily a good idea in and of itself, simply the favored route of goblinoids, and humans to some extent. And certainly the elves are remarkably powerful individually... the problem comes in when you realize that they're outnumbered by considerably more than a 1-10 ratio. Sure they can take out a lot of their enemies massed against them, but eventually their losses are going to reach the point that they're either overrun by sheer weight of numbers or achieve a pyrhhic victory and be overrun by the next horde. Which is kinda what's happening to them now if I'm reading the setting correctly. But, again, perfect efficiency would take a lot of the fantasy out of things - at least it would take it out of FR's feel, at least. For instance, didn't it seem 'arbitrary' when Eowyn could slay the Witch-King where no man could? (I know it was because of her sword, but still.) How about the fact that hobbits, for some 'random' reason, were less susceptible to the temptations of the One Ring? How about the myths of a Leprechaun's pot of gold being at the end of a rainbow? (He could keep it safer elsewhere!) Or the idea that if you caught X or Y fantasy creature, it had to grant you wishes or perform a favor or whatever, under supernatural proclamation? Step on a crack, break your mother's back? Those aren't random, irrational things though. They're mystical properties with their own resonances and reasonings. Going by the presumption that magic and mysticism are rational things in a fantasy setting and not some bizarre set of properties that break all the 'rules', each of them makes perfect sense. Nothing all that arbitrary about it really, you can find reasonings behind all of it. Pardon, but as I can't abide Tolkien, I won't address that bit, never gotten past more than three or four chapters before tossing the book away in disgust. Bans, built in weaknesses, built in strengths, etcetera and so forth, they're all there to facilitate the story along. Oaths, geasa, birthrights, bans, boons... all part of the Pageant, to borrow a phrase from Changeling: The Dreaming. If you look at the stories surrounding these creatures, the various properties they have make sense in the legends surrounding them. One of the reasons I find the Unicorn a bad match to the Realms in some respects, at least as written, since purity isn't associated with virginity nearly as much as it is on earth. Were it up to me, a lot of things would have their monotheistic roots purged to have them make more sense within a polytheistic context. But that's beside the point really. So you basically are saying that any deity (and that deities followers) would do whatever is possible to achieve victory or overall domination in a given situation? That sounds like Neutral talk to me, with some definite possibilities of Evil (see the Crown Wars). So, basically, you mean to take away all restrictions from non-human races? And, hey! Why doesn't EVERY deity-head do this? Why don't they all give them +2 to AC, +2 to all Stats, +1 on all Saves, and a free resurrection while they're at it? This fits in with your idea of 'deities should be able to do anything to help their followers survive,' but it illustrates the fact that there are restrictions for a reason. Elves are already blessed with so many perks (taking into account the CBoE and Cormanthyr) that a lot of people hate them, and you want to give them MORE? Nope, afraid not. That's an extreme interpretation of what I suggested, rather than the considerably more moderate version I had in mind. You do that a lot I'm noticing, take things to extremes rather than give the benefit of the doubt that the person meant what they said in more reasonable ways. Anyway... What I intended with deities doing whatever they could for their children is mitigaing some of the more detrimental factors their 'build' of the various races gave them. Mostly this is aimed at the incredibly low birthrates and maturation times of the Dwarves and Elves, particularly in their implied fertility cycles being so very slow, along with some of the more self-destructive aspects of their culture. Honestly, I'm not suggesting they breed anywhere near as fast as humanity does, as that would end up being more destructive to them than not breeding enough, more like a 5-10% decrease in the time between fertility cycles, if that much, and maybe a similar increase in their maturation rates. Wouldn't even have to be overnight, but a gradual process over a few generations. It would make a significant impact with a mimimum of cultural disruption. I don't see any problems with the Gnomes or Hin to be honest, and see those two becoming the dominant species for a time once humanities 'time' is up. But if they didn't have those 'built-in' weaknesses, dwarves and elves would probably still be dominating the world, and humans would be scratching on their respective doors begging crumbs off of their tables. Which is not to say that Ed's some evil bastard who hates non-humans... My honest read of things is that a lot of this stuff is based off of Tolkien's concepts that 'The Time of Man' was approaching and that the other races just had to make way for the rightful heirs that were humanity, and the idea just caught on and became the accepted norm. The fact that Tolkien was a devoutly religious fellow and writing from an extraordinarily Christian perspective doesn't help the matter much. Personally I see his whole Rings saga as a near dissertation as to why paganism and the 'fae' faded into the mists of time and are a non-issue in todays proper, Christian world. @ Bluenose - I think this is ultimately a question of preference. I don't see a problem with exchanging the dexterity bonus for some other bonus. Its not any more disruptive of a change that that dexterity bonus would be, ultimately. Sure you could accomplish the same thing through feats, but that wouldn't change the fact that the elf still has a slight edge in AC due to the increased dex, better ranged/finesse attacks, increased initiative, better reflex saves, etc... there's no real functional difference there mechanically, and dex affects things on a broader base than Int does, at least in a more immediate sense. As to your point about rules being broken.. I'd disagree with that wholeheartedly. I'd say it was incumbent upon the DM to fix that problem, rather than blaming a ruleset for the issue. The more experienced gamers should be the ones fixing that, helping the inexperienced get more familiar and comfortable with the material. Personally, I see your arguement as akin to tossing the baby out with the bathwater, but maybe I'm misunderstanding, or just not seeing, some point you're trying to make. Though I'll happily agree that Eberron's goblins are much cooler than their Realms counterparts. Actually the Eberron approach to goblinoids in general is more to my liking, but that's nothing that can't be slowly introduced at home. :)
MarkusTay63 04-24-07, 04:48 PM	But, again, perfect efficiency would take a lot of the fantasy out of things - at least it would take it out of FR's feel, at least. For instance, didn't it seem 'arbitrary' when Eowyn could slay the Witch-King where no man could? (I know it was because of her sword, but still.) How about the fact that hobbits, for some 'random' reason, were less susceptible to the temptations of the One Ring? I'm not familiar with the Witch-King story, but one of the better aspects of 'good' fantasy is fate. In MacBeth, he was assured by the witches that he could not die unless certain highly improbably events occurred (ie, "no man of woman born"), and I suspect something similar might have been true in the WitchKing's case, if I am reading you correctly. As far as the Hobbit's immunities to the Ring are concerned, that was explained. In fact, it goes right back to the famous rhyme: Three Rings for the Elven-kings under the sky, Seven for the Dwarf-lords in their halls of stone, Nine for Mortal Men doomed to die, One for the Dark Lord on his dark throne In the Land of Mordor where the Shadows lie. One Ring to rule them all, One Ring to find them, One Ring to bring them all and in the darkness bind them In the Land of Mordor where the Shadows lie. Because the Hobbits were completely ignored during it's manufacture, it's magic was very feeble when compared to it's effects on other races. Because Sauron chose to disregard the 'little folk', it proved his ultimate doom. I feel the same way as Stigger, in that the Demi-humans time has come and went. I believe it was Ed who had "the Retreat" in mind all along, with the Elves sailing away into the west a'la Tolkien and Arthurian legends. This has been ret-conned by WotC, and goes against part of what the Realms are about. According to everything we see about the 'creator races', the other's have had their time in the sun, but now is the age of man. It has a more 'epic' feel to it, then "Hey, changed my mind, all the Elves can turn around and re-settle lands that they abandoned". That's just a cheesy 3e concept that left a bad taste in my mouth. :yuck:
The Ubbergeek 04-24-07, 04:55 PM	For me, the whole Tolkien copy-pasta was the cheesy and cliché. Glad it's done and changed. Can we have original concepts, please?
Stigger 04-24-07, 05:28 PM	I feel the same way as Stigger, in that the Demi-humans time has come and went. I believe it was Ed who had "the Retreat" in mind all along, with the Elves sailing away into the west a'la Tolkien and Arthurian legends. This has been ret-conned by WotC, and goes against part of what the Realms are about. According to everything we see about the 'creator races', the other's have had their time in the sun, but now is the age of man. It has a more 'epic' feel to it, then "Hey, changed my mind, all the Elves can turn around and re-settle lands that they abandoned". That's just a cheesy 3e concept that left a bad taste in my mouth. :yuck: Erm... not quite Markus. I can't stand the idea that the non-humans time has come and gone. Way too Tolkien for me, and if I wasn't clear, I'd sooner burn a Tolkien book than read if, which is saying a lot considering I barely have space for myself for all the books in here... I like the idea of the other races coming into the fore (or back from the brink if you prefer), I like the idea that humanity isn't as important or mighty as previous editions suggested, and I want to see the Hin and Gnomes take over the world. Tolkien's concepts were largely based on Christian views that glorified humanity and its destiny of ruling the Earth, and ultimately diminished the 'Fae' races by saying that, yeah, you're great, wonderful people, but get the hell out cause your lease is up and its humanities rightful place now... oh, by the way, thanks for the help, don't let the door hit your arse on the way out. It was remarkably anti-pagan, pro-Christian drivel if one really looks at it and the premises behind it, all wrapped up in a nice fantasy package.
Dexter_Blacktyde 04-24-07, 06:16 PM	Tolkien's concepts were largely based on Christian views that glorified humanity and its destiny of ruling the Earth, and ultimately diminished the 'Fae' races by saying that, yeah, you're great, wonderful people, but get the hell out cause your lease is up and its humanities rightful place now... oh, by the way, thanks for the help, don't let the door hit your arse on the way out. It was remarkably anti-pagan, pro-Christian drivel if one really looks at it and the premises behind it, all wrapped up in a nice fantasy package. I really don't grasp how one can read the LotR and have this opinion... :confused: DB
Stigger 04-24-07, 06:34 PM	Probably from reading too much about western religious history and its effects on western culture.
Faraer 04-24-07, 06:44 PM	Erm... not quite Markus. I can't stand the idea that the non-humans time has come and gone. Way too Tolkien for me . . .The idea of sacred magical eras being replaced by a less magical present is a universal one, found in pretty much every mythology. Compare the giants/titans, gods, and humankind in Norse and Greek myth, or treatments of thinning in any number of literary works.Tolkien's concepts were largely based on Christian views that glorified humanity and its destiny of ruling the Earth, and ultimately diminished the 'Fae' races by saying that, yeah, you're great, wonderful people, but get the hell out cause your lease is up and its humanities rightful place now... oh, by the way, thanks for the help, don't let the door hit your arse on the way out.No, Tolkien created his secondary world as a place where his elven languages could be spoken, and lamented the decline of the Eldar as cosmic tragedy. So uninterested was he in the thinned, human-dominated Fourth Age that he was unable to satisfactorily write about it. As Greg Stafford has said, if you want to see that time, look out of the window. The humanocentrism of the Realms derives less from Tolkien and more from its influences in basically humanist sword and sorcery and non-fantastic adventure fiction, which is about humans, not demihumans, which represent a fundamentally more primal and less modern way of existing in the world. And if I wanted to reverse or delay this, I'd much rather do it in my campaign that have it done by the publishers as a fait accompli.
Karsus the Mad 04-24-07, 07:43 PM	I really don't grasp how one can read the LotR and have this opinion... I've read them uncounted times (sad being an English professor's assistant in Finland......) and have easily come to the same conclusion Stigger has. The basis of what would eventually become what we know today was written while in the trenches, with the threat of horrid, painful, agonizing death (already several close friends had died) looming over, and more than likely a pair of trousers soaked with urine. It's purely natural and understandable, the creation of a race that embodies all the "Good" of humanity, without the "Truth" of humanity and giving (to oneself) that humans play out as one is taught to be (the whole "do what is good" thing)...as biased as that may mean/seem... btw: I despise Tolkien. I find it to be perhaps the most boring of stories, lacking in any form of imagination, relying on preset mythology for character, real-life languages for fantasy language, and obvious analogies of RL for the plotline, even for the time period it was written.....and he babbles too much...I can't go through a single chapter without at least ONE snore and noted loss of concentration....
The Ubbergeek 04-24-07, 10:05 PM	And if I wanted to reverse or delay this, I'd much rather do it in my campaign that have it done by the publishers as a fait accompli. But it's done, and the Forgotten REalms benifit truely from this change - along the dwarf equivalent of the Thunder Blessing. FR is a different world, it should not go along the cliché mores just because. It's nice to see that it go against the current there.
Stigger 04-25-07, 01:44 AM	Hate to say it Faraer, but everything I've ever read about the man says he was a devout Christian with relatively conservative religious beliefs, and I feel it shows itself clearly in his writing style. As to your point about the current magical era being replaced by a less magical era, sure you've got something of a point there, but that harkens to a base human notion that yesterday was always better than today. Certainly it existed in mythology previously, but Tolkien was the one who mainstreamed it into modern fantasy literature. You hear people making those claims today, despite all reason really. Youth are so much more violent today than they were in that golden age of the 50's where life was idyllic and people were just better... and yet, crime rates are down, youth crime in particular, and the only reason it looks worse is that its reported more often and widely than it used to be. Of course youth dying from gunshots have increased... but death by beating is down past the basement too, which used to happen with considerably more frequency if old statistics are to be believed. Sure, nostalgia makes the past look more attractive, more pure, but logic and facts don't support that view of it in the slightest. I don't see that as being any less true in the past than it is now... particularly where oral histories and legendry are concerned. As to the origins of how it comes into play in the Realms, not being all that well versed in my Greenwoodology, I really can't say one way or another. I look at the material in front of me, and I see Tolkiens influences. I could be wrong about that though. Any way it goes, its something I'd like to see excised from the Realms, post haste.
boards 04-25-07, 01:47 AM	One of the things about LOTR is that it was set in the history of our earth. Elves are no longer around, but play a large part in LOTR. In order for this to be viable the elves must either have died out or left our plane of reality. The Silmarillian and LOTR gives his reasoning for this occurence and it is nothing to do with kicking out pagans (elves are monotheists). As others have said, elves being driven from our world by humans takes part in real world mythology so FR elves retreat is not a copy of Tolkien, but a follow on of Celtic myths (irish at least) and standard fairy tales. Hobbits being resistant to the ring has more to do with their outlook. Elves have a natural desire to improve the land and make it more like Aman with their own power. In Tolkien's eyes this is a bad thing, a desire for dominance. Humans also have this desire for dominance, and it is this weakness that the ring can exploit. Hobbits little such desire (with a few exceptions), so the ring has less to exploit. Eowyns slaying of the Witch King has nothing to do with her sword but fate. Merry's sword gave her a hand, by breaking his concentration allowing her to finish him. It wasnt so much a man was incapable of slaying him, but that it was fated that a woman would do so. Eowyn simply fullfilled this fate. Sorry unabashed Tolkien fan.:D
Stigger 04-25-07, 01:53 AM	No, you misunderstand the pagan reference there, I see his writing as a method of coopting pagan mythlore and turning it around into a semi-Christianized version to make it more palatable to the masses, while adding in the whole rise of man bit, which I saw as a metaphor for the coming of Christianity, to really nail the coffin shut on the helpful, but ultimately superflous 'fae' creatures who had no place in the new world order. Not even going to go into the rest of it at the moment, it'll just get me fuming over the little twit...
Faraer 04-25-07, 02:08 AM	Stigger, Certainly Tolkien was devoutly Christian and so is his mythology. But he never advanced the supremacy of Man over the elder races, who were closer than man to the divine -- I think that's clear in his works and certainly in his letters. He opposed the idea of Man ruling the earth, at least as subjugators like Saruman, rather than caretakers like Treebeard or the kings of Arnor. Not speaking for Tolkien or anyone else, the Golden Age doesn't refer to a literal historical past, as many early anthropologists assumed, but to the sacred mythical time, as perhaps best described by Mircea Eliade and others in the history of religions. Not the same idea as the naive and historically impossible "things ain't what they used to be".
boards 04-25-07, 02:15 AM	Hi Stigger I was writing that as you wrote yours so it wasnt exactly in response to you. I completely understand your dislike about his coopting pagan myths, but that is something that christianity has been doing for a very long time. Being a devout christian he obviously believes that his god is the only god:( , despite his love of Germanic Myth. But I guess one persons likes are another persons dislikes.
Stigger 04-25-07, 03:07 AM	Well, he'd be a pretty crap Christian if he didn't espouse the supremacy of Man over everything, since Man's stewardship over the Earth is pretty much a given core point in most Christian dogmas. The idea of it is still there, just put in contrast of a benevolent supremacy versus a malignant supremacy. Either way, the concept of supremacy is there, just different versions of it. Never came away with that impression about his view on the Elder Races though. Never read his letters though I'll admit. Were that true however, and I've no reason to think you are being misleading there, the only real difference it would make is that I'd have to amend my views on the matter and simply say that his use of non-human races was using pagan mythlore as metaphors for angelic and demonic hosts, which I find far more insulting, speaking as a pagan, than were he simply rationalizing why those 'fae' went away. Then the work becomes a giant metaphor for the passing of the age of miracles... not much better in my point of view obviously. And I understand that concept of the Golden Age, my example up there was simply putting an extension of the same general idea in a more modern context. The principles behind both are essentially the same though, a psychological desire to see the past as glorious and the present and debased. Whether its in an immediate sense or in a distant theological sense, its still there. @ boards, I'm with you on the likes and dislikes thing, despite my occassional vehemence on certain subjects. :)
ORC_Paradox 04-25-07, 03:16 AM	Now we've gone off topic. :(