Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Dargoth 12-29-03, 11:14 PM	The following is taken from a thread on Sean Reynolds boards about the new FR cosmology Let me be entirely fair about this: Forgotten Realms material prior to 3rd Edition D&D was based on the "Great Wheel" cosmology. Forgotten Realms material prior to 3rd Edition D&D was based on the "Great Wheel" cosmology because all D&D cosmologies were the same. If you ever saw the Outer Planes in a D&D product, they were configured according to the Great Wheel. There simply wasn't room for variant cosmologies, especially in the era of the 2nd Edition approach, where all things D&D were forced into the Realms with a giant, magical shoehorn. However, in Ed Greenwood's conception of the Realms planes (as described way back in Dragon Magazine #54, some 6 years before any FR boxed set) wasn't the gods in some larger playground. He wanted the FR deities and no one else, and that is how the Realms were designed, from 1st and later Editions (and even prior to that). Gods of the FR pantheon were intended to rule over the planes in the same manner that Lolth ruled over portions of the Abyss. It was only with the advent of Planescape that we see the heavy mingling of the Great Wheel as it is now known- with its myriad pantheons of various Material Plane worlds- in FR products. The Forgotten Realms are a D&D setting, and have been since the moment they ever saw print. Up until a few years ago, D&D players were told (not suggested), "this is your cosmology," and handed the Great Wheel. Variant cosmologies were not even to be considered. Take a look at the AD&D 1st Edition Player's Handbook, page 120, and see what I mean. The only exception was Dragonlance, which at first had the seeds of a cosmology (the Dome of Creation, the Hidden Vale, and the Abyss), which was later hedged out by the Great Wheel- again, thanks to the 2nd Edition model. Planescape forced the idea of a universal D&D cosmology far into the forefront and, 2nd Edition being what it was, that cosmology was more closely integrated into the Forgotten Realms. The gods became players on a much, much larger stage. Likewise, in the opinions of many FR players, their PCs became much smaller players on that same stage, which was something they- we- didn't particularly appreciate. The heroics of those characters became less heroic, because in the grand scheme of things, they weren't only less meaningful, but if they happened on the Prime, they were almost meaningless. This is not to criticize the Planescape setting itself- which I happen to like- but the idea that any one setting should trump another. The advent of Planescape, and to a somewhat smaller extent, Spelljammer, forced authors to frame the Realms somewhat differently than they might have if given the option. The approach taken in 3E was to give the Realms a cosmology that was, at its core, framed by the Realms, not by generic D&D, nor by Planescape. Those elements can absolutely make their way into individual games if the players want them to, but it's not exactly revisionist history to paint the Realms with color of their own when those options really weren't available in the past. The planes of the Great Wheel weren't just one conception of the multiverse; they were "The Known Planes of Existence." Keep in mind that neither Dragonlance nor the Forgotten Realms had been released as a complete campaign setting yet; there was merely Greyhawk, and home campaigns. FRCS3E is an attempt to give the FR a cosmology of its own, rather than one imposed by the rules of the edition it was originally published under. Prior to 3E, there was no FR cosmology. There was simply a D&D one, and that was part of the problem. Jeff Grubb, author of both iterations of the Manual of the Planes, and someone who has been attached to the development of the Realms since TSR first got the rights to publish it, said: "One of the limitations of the Great Wheel is that it set down the cosmology for the various campaign settings. You could not suddenly discover a new plane -- it just wouldn't fit. The Realms layout creates the chances of new planes (and yes, new gods) showing up." This is from the same man who called the Great Wheel the "Known Planes of Existence" in the original Manual of the Planes, and assigned the gods to their various planar homes in Forgotten Realms Adventures (which is how the FR deities got their planes in the first place). If Jeff, of all people, thinks the old cosmology was limiting for the Realms, and the new one is worthwhile, then I think those who decry the cosmology as presented in the most recent FRCS as too radical a departure from what came before may be a bit too obstinate to ever be convinced. Let me be the first to say I want an "FR manual of the planes for"
Nighttfall 12-30-03, 01:26 AM	Whatever. Just keep the Abyss and Orcus. He helped shaped this damn place. :P :)
Kezghan 12-30-03, 03:35 AM	hmmmm that actually made some sense to me, still not sure if i will let go of the Wheel, ill wait and see what they whip up in the PGtF.
Dargoth 12-30-03, 04:01 AM	Originally posted by Kezghan hmmmm that actually made some sense to me, still not sure if i will let go of the Wheel, ill wait and see what they whip up in the PGtF. I posted the following on SKRs boards in response to the origional post I have to say I like the new cosmology and therefore I dont consider SKRs changing it a Cardinal sin. The Cardinal sin SKR did commit was not detailing it enough, 2 and half pages in the FRC was no where near enough for such a major change. Im also convinced that this is the main reason people hate the new cosmology ie the old Great wheel is known and has a whole book devoted to i, while the new FR cosmology is brand spanking new and only has 2.5 pages devoted to it. The ideal place to have expanded on the new cosmology was in Faithes and Pantheons. I would have gladly sacrificed the Deity stats for a Chapter on the FR cosmology and im a little disappointed that Sean didnt do this. But in any case we are supposedly going to get a more complete description of the FR cosmology in The Players guide to Faerun, 10-15 pages I believe Rich B said.
Kezghan 12-30-03, 05:57 AM	Dargoth your post makes utmost sense, definatly more detail is necessary to appease us old skoolers, more detail would make the transition much easier and helpful. I like the thought just the implementation was weak and therefore yes im sure most of us where happy to stick with our old familier wheel.
Dargoth 12-30-03, 07:26 AM	Originally posted by Kezghan Dargoth your post makes utmost sense, definatly more detail is necessary to appease us old skoolers, more detail would make the transition much easier and helpful. I like the thought just the implementation was weak and therefore yes im sure most of us where happy to stick with our old familier wheel. Ideally Id like to see the FR completely partioned from the other settings. In the dying days of 2ed I found it the frequency of spell jammers appearing in Toril quite disturbing. I want Waterdeep to be a Medevial city with magic not some sort Faerunian Mos Eisley Id like to see other races of outsiders on the FR planes not just Demons, Devils and Slaad theres a historical basis for this Mykrul had his own race of Outsiders (They appear in the module Waterdeep)
Gotrex 12-30-03, 09:20 AM	its not the split from the great wheel itself that annoys me its the stupid contradictions it has caused if they are going to split off from something that big i expect them to make a list of every contradiction that now exists because of what they have done and explain it for example how does the blood war funtion now without destroying the prime material plane? and how do we have spells ivented by bigby and mordenkainen?
Crust 12-30-03, 10:16 AM	I never really liked the Great Wheel... I think it had something to do with the Modron March. :uh-huh: I would also love an FR Manual of the Planes. I'm sure it's on its way. Speaking of modrons... Will we ever see a Book of Perfect Neutrality (or something similar) in the future? I'd love to see some epic modrons like Primus listed. Those guys were the craziest things to ever grace a Monster Manual. He was the top modron, right? :confused:
Garen Thal 12-30-03, 10:55 AM	Originally posted by Gotrex its not the split from the great wheel itself that annoys me its the stupid contradictions it has caused if they are going to split off from something that big i expect them to make a list of every contradiction that now exists because of what they have done and explain it for example how does the blood war funtion now without destroying the prime material plane? and how do we have spells ivented by bigby and mordenkainen? Well, they're only contradictions if we make them so. I, for one, don't believe that the Blood War ever had any real business in the Realms (or any other Material world; it's a Planescape entity), but odds are the Blood War will be faught on the plane called the Blood Rift. Some things never should have been incorporated into FR in the first place, and the fact that they are being phased out is, in my opinion, no great loss. As for the spells of Mordenkainen and his buddies, Jeff Grubb himself addressed this in an interview (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/article.asp?x=dnd/ps/ps20010909a) about the Manual of the Planes:Mind you, neither the Realms' nor Krynn's cosmologies are defined as such in the new Manual -- that would belong to their particular campaign supports. But I still provided a way for you to get from Oerth to Krynn to Toril -- it's just a further walk now.
Wooly Rupert 12-30-03, 11:03 AM	Okay, so the Realms was never supposed to be part of the Great Wheel. I can accept that. What I can't accept is the way they just chucked aside the old stuff so they could separate it. Regardless of the original intentions, 2nd edition firmly entrenched the Realms in the Great Wheel, and there are countless references to the planes of the Great Wheel. To abruptly toss all that aside is revisionist history.
Kuje31 12-30-03, 01:20 PM	It's time for this debate again huh? Well as the others said, it's not that I don't dislike the new planes. What I do dislike about them is that they left glaring holes (at least 50+ of them) when they decided to rip FR from the Great Ring/Wheel without explaining away any of these changes. Some of us prefer continuity and consistency. Also not to sound like I'm whining but its a bit annoying that WOTC doesn't care about the people who have the old material (Rich explained away these changes by saying they only make new sourcebooks for those who are new to the realms. Which is fine but contradicting old material does get old after awhile.) and so we have almost 20 years worth of sourcebooks that are worthless. It wasn't broken and it didn't need to be fixed. Actually it's not even fixed now, its just a major pieced together lemon. :)
Nighttfall 12-30-03, 01:31 PM	Yeah but at least the lemon came back and is now going to take over the Realms. :P :)
sanishiver 12-30-03, 04:23 PM	Wow, it’s amazing how a little bit of background knowledge all but defeats the last 3(?) years of whining and moaning. I wish Sean would have posted this information a long time ago (the better to beat all the whining babies over the head with it while sternly telling them to SHUT UP!). Originally posted by Kuje31 Also not to sound like I'm whining but its a bit annoying that WOTC doesn't care about the people who have the old material and so we have almost 20 years worth of sourcebooks that are worthless. I’m still amazed to this day that people push these two garbage ideas online. Oh yeah sure, WotC doesn’t care one whit about the game or the gamers. Whaaaaa…:weep: :weep: Could someone please explain how, exactly, FR DM’s instantly and irrevocably lost their ability to use the Great Wheel in the Realms when the FRCS saw print? Inquiring minds want to know. Originally posted by Kuje31 It wasn't broken and it didn't need to be fixed. Actually it's not even fixed now, its just a major pieced together lemon. :) I liked Plainscape. I didn’t like the idea of the Realms being intruded upon. It’s nice to see the designers making an effort to bring the Realms back to its original vision. :whatsthis
Garen Thal 12-30-03, 04:50 PM	Originally posted by sanishiver Wow, it’s amazing how a little bit of background knowledge all but defeats the last 3(?) years of whining and moaning. I wish Sean would have posted this information a long time ago (the better to beat all the whining babies over the head with it while sternly telling them to SHUT UP!)There will always be people that prefer the Great Wheel to the new cosmology- something they are absolutely entitled to do. Sean's not the one that posted that bit of information (I was (http://pub17.ezboard.com/fseankreynoldsboardsfrm2.showMessage?top icID=809.topic)), but the purpose was to do just that: discredit the argument that the new FR cosmology is somehow "wrong." It also happens that the vast majority of "contradictions" are either a) irrelevant, or b) easily remedied. The remainder don't really have all that much to do with the Realms as such. The changes in the various godly realms among the are planes are an obvious side effect, but which planes the gods live on is only slightly more important than their game stats. The relative distances between Toril and other worlds- be they other Material worlds like Greyhawk, or planar locations like Sigil- has almost nothing to do with most FR games, and has almost no impact on the development of the Realms as a shared setting. More importantly, the creation of a Forgotten Realms cosmology does not mean that previous material is invalidated. The World Serpent still functions, and planes other than those listed still exist. Unlike previous editions, there is no claim that these are the Planes of Existence, hedging out any possibility of other planes. These are simply the planes that are known to connect to Faerűn (not even all Toril), and even then, these are simply the ones that have been discovered. I've read through the various threads decrying the new cosmology, but the arguments against it seem rather sparse. Most boil down evaluating the new cosmology as "change for the sake of change," and wind up sound like people confusing stasis for continuity. If a change enhances the Realms as a setting, I'm for it, and I happen to be a continuity freak (just ask a certain Mr. Krashos). Sure, it may make planeswalking harder, but walking the planes really shouldn't be easy in the first place.
Sylvos 12-30-03, 05:04 PM	Yeah i've always had issues with the FR Cosmology and the Great Wheel presented in the DMG/MotP etc.. So...when FRCS came out I looked at it, said hrm....then pretty much made each of the "planes" demiplanes of each respective plane that they had in 2nd edition (i.e. Dweomerheart = demiplane of Nirvana) and just made the lines that connect to Toril connect in the same way from the DMG established lines. I didn't like how Planescape made all the other campaign settings "dwarfed" since they could freely travel between all planes of existance. The movie Time Bandits for some reason always comes to mind when I think of Planescape now, don't ask me why. Regardless, that was one way I made my Great Wheel work and still hold somewhat true to FR cosmology.
Ryltar Swordsong 12-30-03, 05:22 PM	The new cosmology is stupid IMO. As Kuje said, it wasn't broken and didn't need to be fixed. I really don't care what SKR says about anything, least of all the new cosmology.
Kuje31 12-30-03, 05:30 PM	Originally posted by sanishiver I’m still amazed to this day that people push these two garbage ideas online. Oh yeah sure, WotC doesn’t care one whit about the game or the gamers. Whaaaaa…:weep: :weep: Could someone please explain how, exactly, FR DM’s instantly and irrevocably lost their ability to use the Great Wheel in the Realms when the FRCS saw print? Inquiring minds want to know. Where did I say that old DM's can't or won't use the old material? Rich has gone on record saying all new sourcebooks are made for new gamers and people new to FR. They are not made for those who have the old material hence the changes. I never once said in this thread that none of us can't or won't use the Great Wheel. So please stop putting words into my mouth or reading more into what I said then what I actually posted. If you have read any of my other replies over the past year or so you would know I still DO use Planescape and the great ring/wheel. Again dig through the old threads since there are tons of them that explain WHY the new planes are garbage and why they cause countless errors that have yet to be explained away. With what WOTC has shown so far in FR material they probably won't be given a explaination since consistancy and continuity doesn't matter any more. At least in the old material there usually was a reason why such a change happened in the history of the world. Instead now we are just supposed to believe these things have always been so even though they leave glaring holes in to many people's history or the history of nations and other places.
Kuje31 12-30-03, 05:38 PM	Originally posted by Garen Thal It also happens that the vast majority of "contradictions" are either a) irrelevant, or b) easily remedied. The remainder don't really have all that much to do with the Realms as such. The changes in the various godly realms among the are planes are an obvious side effect, but which planes the gods live on is only slightly more important than their game stats. The relative distances between Toril and other worlds- be they other Material worlds like Greyhawk, or planar locations like Sigil- has almost nothing to do with most FR games, and has almost no impact on the development of the Realms as a shared setting. They don't have any thing to do with FR games? Since when? And that could be just your opinion. They effect my games and a lot of others since many still run games in the Multiverse. And if they are so easy to remedy then how do you explain Finder visiting Sigil or Khelben the Younger living in Greyhawk since officially there is no way he could have gotten there. Sorry but thats hogwash. There are glaring holes now in FR's history, npc's, and nations because of this one change that was not needed at all. Originally posted by Garen Thal I've read through the various threads decrying the new cosmology, but the arguments against it seem rather sparse. Most boil down evaluating the new cosmology as "change for the sake of change," and wind up sound like people confusing stasis for continuity. If a change enhances the Realms as a setting, I'm for it, and I happen to be a continuity freak (just ask a certain Mr. Krashos). Sure, it may make planeswalking harder, but walking the planes really shouldn't be easy in the first place. How did it enhance FR to remove it from the Great Wheel? I'm really interested in some one's answer to this instead of just having some one come on and flame me. Walking the planes shouldn't be easy? Seriously FR was one of the major worlds where planeswalking has always been the easist to do so, because of the many portals and magic that is scattered all over the place on Toril.
Garen Thal 12-30-03, 06:19 PM	"They don't have any thing to do with FR games? Since when? And that could be just your opinion." Certainly, it is my opinion that games which do not take place in the Forgotten Realms are not primarily FR games. They may involve FR storylines, FR characters, and FR gods, but the essence of the Realms, in my opinion, is the history of Faerűn and the strivings of the mortals that inhabit its various kingdoms, with each other, and with themselves. "And if they are so easy to remedy then how do you explain Finder visiting Sigil or Khelben the Younger living in Greyhawk since officially there is no way he could have gotten there." Wha? Huh? If you'd look at the statement by Jeff Grubb that I've quoted earlier in the thread, there most certainly is a way to get there. Just because the 3rd Edition FRCS doesn't list Sigil or Greyhawk as potential destinations for planewalkers doesn't mean that they aren't. The Manual of the Planes says that variant cosmologies can be- and often are- linked through the Plane of Shadow. FRCS says "Sages theorize that the Shadow Plane may lead to planes currently unknown in the cosmology of Toril." Sigil and Greyhawk exist, but they are not part of the cosmology of Toril, and frankly, never really were supposed to be. Your argument here seems to be that if it isn't in the campaign setting literature, it simply isn't possible. At worst, that's unimaginative. At best, it's simply ignoring past references that make it clear that it is, indeed possible. Just because you aren't given the "how" doesn't mean you've been given a "can't." If you're going to argue that consistency and continuity are paramount, at least grant that, barring some statement that you can't reach Sigil (for example) by conceivable means, that it's possible you can. The road may have changed, and the trip might be harder, but the destinations still exist. That's not to say that the new cosmology doesn't raise new questions. It certainly does. How do characters reach Sigil? Is Greyhawk part of Toril's Material Plane, or an alternate one? How did so many of Mordenkainen's spells get to Faerűn? The job of a campaign setting isn't to answer every question a player or DM might come up with. It's simply to provide the group with what they need to come up with an answer suitable to the game. That these questions are no unanswered- where they previously would be considered almost child-like- isn't necessarily a bad thing. "How did it enhance FR to remove it from the Great Wheel?" I'll give three reasons as to why I think FR is better without the Great Wheel. 1. A cosmology is superior for representing a setting when it gives room for the pantheon, and the cosmology itself, to accomodate changes. As Jeff Grubb said, planes couldn't move, shift, or be discovered in the Great Wheel. There simply wasn't room. New gods were forced into planes, and therefore, certain attitudes, because the planes were inimically tied to alignment. 2. A cosmology is superior for accomodating a setting when it enhances the actions of the player characters in a campaign, rather than dwarfing them. The Great Wheel, in the form of Planescape, had the unfortunate effect of trivializing the actions of the player characters in Realms campaigns. What was previously a rich and detailed world became one of many, all of which were part of a never-ending struggle amounting to a zero-sum game. Characters' actions have less meaning when they are aware of a hard and fast structure that will forever be above their heads and out of their reach, and the Great Wheel enforces such a structure. 3. A cosmology is superior when it is unique to the setting it is a part of. This one, I think, is self-evident. Just as every campaign as its own quirks, foibles, and rules changes, so too should it have its locations be unique; that is the very essence of a campaign setting. Locations cease to be unique when they are imposed by a ruleset. "Walking the planes shouldn't be easy?" No, it shouldn't. Not if we look at the planes as they are intended: as the homes of the gods and their immediate servants. Powerful, high-level characters might reach these facets of existence at some point in their careers, and even use them as homes or as conduits to greater levels of power, but that doesn't mean it should be easy. "Seriously FR was one of the major worlds where planeswalking has always been the easist to do so, because of the many portals and magic that is scattered all over the place on Toril." And even then, planeswalking has been reserved for the powerful, the foolish, and the incredibly unlucky. If it were easy, everyone would do it, and then there wouldn't really need to be a Forgotten Realms setting at all.
Dargoth 12-30-03, 06:23 PM	Addressing a few of the inconsitencys Regarding spells with invented by Greyhawk Wizards Option 1: There was never any contact with Greyhawk and all those spells where invented by Wizards in the Realms, (and the spells only bare there name so as to avoid confusion to players in PHB). An historical example of this would be that the Incas in south America developed the wheel long before the Europeans arrived Option 2: The Greyhawk spells where introduced to Faerun during one of those cross world migrations such as the Mulan and Grey Orcs ie as a result of 10+ spells, it once was possiable to visit other worlds but due to Mystras denial it is no longer possiable. Regarding the inconistencys with the FR cosmology and the Great Wheel Option 1: The shearing off of the FR from the great wheel could be explained by the dawn catacylsm. When Lathander caused the Dawn cataclysm it tore the very fabric of the planes creating a rift between the Great wheel and the realms of Faeruns gods this created a seperate set of planes used by the FR gods. Option 2: Ao decides that the FR has to many gods and in 1373 use his power as the over god to cleave the FR realms from the great wheel so no other gods can migrate into his domain ineffect Ao has repeated what he did to the Mulan gods but on a much greater scale no god or person may travel from the Great wheel to Faerun anymore
sanishiver 12-30-03, 06:42 PM	Originally posted by Kuje31 Where did I say that old DM's can't or won't use the old material? How ‘bout this part: ”…we have almost 20 years worth of sourcebooks that are worthless.” Originally posted by Kuje31 Rich has gone on record saying all new sourcebooks are made for new gamers and people new to FR. They are not made for those who have the old material hence the changes. I never once said in this thread that none of us can't or won't use the Great Wheel. Heck, nobody said you couldn’t use the Great Wheel. If anything the Manual of the Planes gives you all the information you need to use the GW in your Realms campaign. And for all the folks that have the old material: Don’t forget you still have that old material (or can download almost all of it for free from WotC or other sources). You can still use it. It is not worthless. Nor did it suddenly become impossible to use. Originally posted by Kuje31 So please stop putting words into my mouth or reading more into what I said then what I actually posted. If you have read any of my other replies over the past year or so you would know I still DO use Planescape and the great ring/wheel. I didn’t put words in your mouth. You’re the one who claimed your gaming material was useless. And now your saying you still use it, which implies your old books actually have some value. Now I’m confused: Which is it? Originally posted by Kuje31 Again dig through the old threads since there are tons of them that explain WHY the new planes are garbage and why they cause countless errors that have yet to be explained away. With what WOTC has shown so far in FR material they probably won't be given a explaination since consistancy and continuity doesn't matter any more. Those threads don’t “explain” anything. All they do is (1) show people’s opinions (which are quite legitimate and worth posting so long as they’re on topic and free of flames), (2) illustrate how quick people are to jump on the “Let’s Whine and Complain” bandwagon and (3) demonstrate how fragile and weak some people’s ability is to cope with new game materials. Also, I’m quite familiar with all those threads, thanks. My first post in this thread should have made that abundantly clear. What’s more, I’m all too familiar with such crap posted to the Realms-L mailing list as well; whether it be about Cosmology changes, the Map changes, the Game Rules turning over to Third Edition, the addition of Red Wizard Enclaves, etc.. I’ve seen and read countless whine-posts about how those revision and updates somehow break Continuity and disobey the “law” of Cannon, all while managing to wound to the core the feelings of all “real” and “loyal” Realms Fans. :rolleyes: Further, you don’t need, nor do you deserve an “explanation” for each and every addition. If an element directly affects your game, use your old material and you have nothing to worry about (because in your game said revision never happened). If an element affects your personal knowledge of the Realms: Deal with it. After all, we’re all (presumably) grown ups. Thus, observing an apparent contradiction of Realms Lore does not automatically lead to Brain Hemorrhage; instead one ought to make up one’s own mind and get on with life. I’ve played in the Realms since the Grey Boxes set was first released. The sum of the revisions, additions and changes to the Realms over time have done naught but add to my personal knowledge and love for the setting. I find it exceptionally hard to believe I’m the only person in the world who can “cope”. Originally posted by Kuje31 At least in the old material there usually was a reason why such a change happened in the history of the world. Instead now we are just supposed to believe these things have always been so even though they leave glaring holes in too many people's history or the history of nations and other places. First, if every word written on every page of every piece of Realms-related material directly affects your own campaign: Wow! I wish my game used every element of every novel and sourcebook ever written! God knows I’d want to inform my players ASAP that a trade road they’ve never been on –much less heard of– got moved 10 miles south because a Mountain Range suddenly got bigger. However, I think it’s safe to assume nobody’s game is that expansive and precise. In that case why not make yourself useful and fill in the gaps. Post a “revised” explanation on how Finder came to be, etc.. That’s what they (mostly) do on the Realms-L list. All whining does is waste system memory, time and bandwidth. :whatsthis
Kuje31 12-30-03, 06:44 PM	Garen Thal, Well you posted many good reasons and I'm not going to answer them all but at least you have the reasons why you use the new planes and gave a reasonable answer instead of a flame. I don't agree with most of them which is why I don't agree with the new planes but at least you gave a detailed reasonable answer.
Kuje31 12-30-03, 07:00 PM	Originally posted by sanishiver How ‘bout this part: ”…we have almost 20 years worth of sourcebooks that are worthless.” And I ask again how is this saying I don't or won't use the old material? You are putting words into my mouth again instead of actually reading the post. I NEVER ONCE SAID I DON'T OR WON'T USE OLD MATERIAL. IS THIS CLEAR NOW? I said it invalidated the old material because they decided to "fix" some thing that was not broken and invalidate almost 20 years worth of material, while leaving glaring holes with the "fix." But I guess you just want to flame over and over again instead of actually adding to the discussion. If you don't want to read about the "whining." Then don't reply. It's not a hard concept to understand. Some of us don't like the changes and we are just asking for a official in game reason why such a change happened. I don't need to post such changes because I don't use such changes, but I would like a official reason why such change happened that fills one of the glaring holes in FR's history. Notice I said in game reason. Not "because WOTC decided it needed to be changed." If I wanted to make every thing up that WOTC has changed then I would play in Greyhawk or a homebrew. I happened to LIKE FR because it details these things (I.E the Fluff of the setting) and usually there is a reason why such changes occured in the setting.
Nighttfall 12-30-03, 07:59 PM	I defend Kuje for using old material! Mostly cause he's my fellow Orcus friend in corruption! So Back off! :P
Kuje31 12-30-03, 08:26 PM	Originally posted by Nighttfall I defend Kuje for using old material! Mostly cause he's my fellow Orcus friend in corruption! So Back off! :P :angel: :bounce: :fight!:
Dargoth 12-30-03, 08:46 PM	Originally posted by Dargoth Addressing a few of the inconsitencys Regarding spells with invented by Greyhawk Wizards Option 1: There was never any contact with Greyhawk and all those spells where invented by Wizards in the Realms, (and the spells only bare there name so as to avoid confusion to players in PHB). An historical example of this would be that the Incas in south America developed the wheel long before the Europeans arrived Option 2: The Greyhawk spells where introduced to Faerun during one of those cross world migrations such as the Mulan and Grey Orcs ie as a result of 10+ spells, it once was possiable to visit other worlds but due to Mystras denial it is no longer possiable. Regarding the inconistencys with the FR cosmology and the Great Wheel Option 1: The shearing off of the FR from the great wheel could be explained by the dawn catacylsm. When Lathander caused the Dawn cataclysm it tore the very fabric of the planes creating a rift between the Great wheel and the realms of Faeruns gods this created a seperate set of planes used by the FR gods. Option 2: Ao decides that the FR has to many gods and in 1373 use his power as the over god to cleave the FR realms from the great wheel so no other gods can migrate into his domain ineffect Ao has repeated what he did to the Mulan gods but on a much greater scale no god or person may travel from the Great wheel to Faerun anymore Shameless Plug!!
Nighttfall 12-30-03, 09:51 PM	Originally posted by Kuje31 :angel: :bounce: :fight!: My pleasure Kuje. You might not be a true orcus fan but I stand by the man that stands by me.
Dargoth 12-30-03, 10:03 PM	Originally posted by Nighttfall My pleasure Kuje. You might not be a true orcus fan but I stand by the man that stands by me. You will not Highjack my thread!
Kuje31 12-30-03, 10:25 PM	Originally posted by Dargoth You will not Highjack my thread! I think it was highjacked after the first few replies. :)
Nighttfall 12-30-03, 10:38 PM	He's awful testy isn't he Kuje?
Kuje31 12-30-03, 10:59 PM	Originally posted by Nighttfall He's awful testy isn't he Kuje? Not going to answer this with a opinion. I've been flamed enough and called enough names today in this thread. :)
Dargoth 12-30-03, 11:15 PM	Originally posted by Nighttfall He's awful testy isn't he Kuje? *Casts SUMMON BIG SISTER*
Thysl 12-31-03, 12:58 AM	Here's my reason for liking the new cosmology: They are called the Forgotten Realms. What's so forgotten about a world that is a Plane-hop, Astral-skip, or a Shadow-jump away? Disconnecting the realms from the Great Wheel makes the occasions in Realms history where beings exodus to Fearun much more dramatic.
Nighttfall 12-31-03, 01:11 AM	Originally posted by Dargoth *Casts SUMMON BIG SISTER* ooh bringing out the heavy guns now! ;) Kuje, yeah but you have me now to back you up. ;)
Kezghan 12-31-03, 01:15 AM	As an owner of 480,000,000 Realms products im thinking i dont mind fandangling the continuity somewhat to refit the realms with a new cosmology, infact i mean its really a simple in game fix to make it be and seem as if it has always been this way. And if they are so easy to remedy then how do you explain Finder visiting Sigil or Khelben the Younger living in Greyhawk since officially there is no way he could have gotten there. As Garen so kindly pointed out Jeff's response : Mind you, neither the Realms' nor Krynn's cosmologies are defined as such in the new Manual -- that would belong to their particular campaign supports. But I still provided a way for you to get from Oerth to Krynn to Toril -- it's just a further walk now. re: Shadow Plane. On this whole topic i have shifted my views on, i used to support the wheel as the one and only, but no more. I will happily try to institute this new cosmology as best i can, if my game ever goes.. out there. Certainly is a touchy subject. But id rather have some Realms products with new ideas than none at all.
sanishiver 12-31-03, 04:30 AM	Ahh… a good dinner. :burp: Originally posted by Kuje31 I NEVER ONCE SAID I DON'T OR WON'T USE OLD MATERIAL. IS THIS CLEAR NOW? And I never claimed otherwise. You did, however, clearly state that, ”…we have almost 20 years worth of sourcebooks that are worthless.” Why do we have “worthless” sourcebooks? According to you, it is because there are changes to the Cosmology in the FRCS. Now then, if something is worthless, it is by definition of no value (which in our shared hobby means all that old material is now of no use to DM’s and Players, much less Armchair Realms enthusiasts). However, Realms material, no matter its age or what rules edition it was written under, is always useful. Therefore it is not “worthless”. Hell, gaming material from just about any (non FR) source is useful, whether it be stuff borrowed from Dragonlance, The Scarred Lands, etc.. Thus the question: Could someone please explain how, exactly, FR DM’s instantly and irrevocably lost their ability to use the Great Wheel in the Realms when the FRCS saw print? (With the addendum: Since all the FR material pertaining to the Great Wheel is now “worthless”.) Since you made that statement, you’ve reversed yourself and claimed that (1) you actually do use old material and (2) in fact anyone can use it. Thus my confusion. All that old material is worthless, but still somehow makes for a great game. What? Originally posted by Kuje31 I said it invalidated the old material because they decided to "fix" some thing that was not broken and invalidate almost 20 years worth of material, while leaving glaring holes with the "fix." In a Nutshell: I’ve seen this exact same tired old “change X just screwed up EVAHREETHEENG that came before” claim posted again and again, whether on these boards (Particularly during the time of Elric “Silverthrone” Ruby Throne: He almost single handedly drove Elaine Cunningham off these boards with his persistent “complaints” [that’s putting it nicely] regarding how she consistently broke previously established Continuity in every one of her novels and never once bothered to explain in her books or in public why she did it. This was in his words a “travesty” and an “insult” to both Canon and to Realms fans who were being deprived of an explanation.) or on the Realms-L mailing list (where Sean Reynolds was roasted [and nearly run off] by Paul “I’m a PHD So I’m Smarter Than All of You Put Together” Westermeyer, because Sean had the nerve to stand up to him and debunk every one of Paul’s baseless complaints about the “changes” being made in the FRCS and by Third Edition. Paul also thought the Realms were more or less fine and needed no fixing in the manner being done by the FRCS design team, and so found fault with each and every change made by the design team). Whether it was an addition that added something that wasn’t there before (whether new rules like Feats or setting changes like the Shadow Weave), adjusting something (revising the Map), tweaking something (Red Wizards as merchants), the same complaint was levied: These changes “invalidate” something that didn’t need fixing. Originally posted by Kuje31 But I guess you just want to flame over and over again instead of actually adding to the discussion. I’m very interested in adding to the discussion, particularly if it means demanding an explanation as to how false claims can be true as part of an effort to debunk those claims. Originally posted by Kuje31 If you don't want to read about the "whining." Then don't reply. It's not a hard concept to understand. Now who’s putting words into someone else’s mouth? I never said that. What I did say was that I’m tired of seeing the same old garbage posted online. Who wouldn’t be interested in seeing the trash thrown out? Originally posted by Kuje31 Some of us don't like the changes and we are just asking for a official in game reason why such a change happened. And it’s high time some of you figured out that (1) you’re not always going to get one, (2) your old enough to realize you don’t need it and (3) it’s up to you (and by that I mean any and all who are interested in the issue) to fix it.. Originally posted by Kuje31 I don't need to post such changes because I don't use such changes… That’s funny. You don’t even use the changes, which means they have no effect on your game, and yet you’re still complaining that WotC made all your game materials worthless? What’s more, for someone whose game has been completely and totally unaffected by the revisions, you seem to be terribly interested in finding an answer to the “apparent” contradictions you’ve “found”. Why not pull a Dargoth and write a brief essay explaining away any one of the “hundreds” of “glaring holes” opened up by the FRCS? After all, if a problem is big enough to spend the energy complaining about then it’s worth spending the energy to fix it. Originally posted by Kuje31 …but I would like a official reason why such change happened that fills one of the glaring holes in FR's history. Strange. Where is this precise, accurate and infallible history you keep referring too that WotC has somehow managed to screw up so badly? Originally posted by Kuje31 Notice I said in game reason. Not "because WOTC decided it needed to be changed." It’s already been show that the revision to the cosmology was not done at the drop of the hat, fits the true vision of the Realms, and is supported by several distinguished game designers (who themselves have shown a deep personal interest in seeing the Realms come to light as accurately as possible). And on top of that WotC needs to re-package and re-shape the Realms to at least some degree because it is a product that is for sale. Asking for an “in world” explanation (perhaps requiring an RSE, which as we all know would be an exceptionally stupid thing to do) instead of accepting that the Realms are never, ever going to be singularly/precisely portrayed in any one book (much less a series of them) is both impractical and a copout. But g’head, ask away. Originally posted by Kuje31 I happened to LIKE FR. I know you do. You like it so much you hang around here and help folks out with (very) useful bits of Realmslore and also provide (good) ideas for adventures. You also (presumably) poke around other sites and learn what you can about the Realms, and have (based on my observations of your posts) increased your Realmslore knowledge a great deal since you first started posting here; all to our (Community) benefit. You’re a helluva lot more useful than (temperamental and cranky) me, to be sure. And I happen to like the Realms too. So much so that I’d risk being banned (which will be happening later today [Jan 31]) in order to nip Realms-Ruining ideas in the bud. :whatsthis
WizO_BigSister 12-31-03, 01:53 PM	Right - as it has become obvious that people cannot discuss this issue in a polite, civilised manner without resorting to trolling and personal attacks I am closing this thread now.