Post/Author/DateTime	Post
ywhtptgtfo 03-10-08, 06:50 PM	I just finished "Undead", the 2nd book detailing a conflict within Thay. The contents of that book seems to contradict materials in the "Wailing Years" article quite nicely... Mystra died within the first few Chapters or so and everyone's throwing spells around like crazy. Although it was mentioned that the red wizards have to abandon their old ways of spellcasting (a.k.a short-cuts provided by the Weave), there's very little about magic going wild and no reference about arcane magic ceasing to exist. Also, it was repeatedly said in numerous 3 ed. products that the Shadow Weave is independent of the Weave. Not sure why they'd contradict that later when there are other possible ways to do away with Shar's toy. Finally, if wizards can so easily (to somewhat) adapt to the absence of the Weave (as implied in "Undead"), then it just makes the Fall of Netheril and ToT a bunch of non-sense. I wonder who in WotC writes these kinds of bad plot elements and fail to even stitch them somewhat consistently to an already ruined tapestry that is FR...
Kenzuki 03-10-08, 07:08 PM	And so it begins...*sighs*
Stigger 03-10-08, 07:46 PM	I kinda suspect that a lot of these things are stemming from an idea Rich Baker expressed a while ago... that there was this perception of Mystra and magic in general being 'broken', but that the devs didn't necessarily think this was the case, despite making attempts to 'fix' the perceived problem. My own thoughts on the matter tend towards the devs not really understanding the problem or perception entirely, which I think makes sense since they apparently did not share the notion on some level, and so their solution to the 'problem' isn't quite coherent or well formulated since I think they fundamentally just 'don't get it' when it comes down to it. Could be wrong in that, but the mixed signals and general incoherency of the 4e Realms that we know so far points me in that direction. Hopefully, they'll get that fixed by the time they send things off to the printers...
yarethon 03-10-08, 08:06 PM	Although it was mentioned that the red wizards have to abandon their old ways of spellcasting (a.k.a short-cuts provided by the Weave), there's very little about magic going wild and no reference about arcane magic ceasing to exist. I kind of disagree with the OP in regards to this. The book shows the floating isles, spells that become alive and posses the living, very erratic spellcasting, undead refusing to obey necromancers , demons that turn on their summoners and etc. That is pretty erratic and wild for me.
MarkusTay63 03-10-08, 09:16 PM	The problem is that the designers DON'T EVEN CONFER WITH EACH OTHER! I've caught them several times going against what another said, Brian has already stated that the Nobanion stuff in his article no longer applies because "they decided to go another way with him", the Shadow Weave's dependence on the Weave changes from one sourcebook to the next, Rich makes excuses for the 'Drizzt' cover, only to find out it was a placeholder... Seriously peeps, doesn't anyone see anything wrong with the complete and utter chaos that seems to be running things over at WotC? It seems like all the guys in charge each has his own plan, and none of them are listening to the others. I've already figured out one place where the FRCG will disagree with itself (in another thread, can't remember the point off-hand). How many more of these blatant inconsistencies can FR withstand before it falls apart completely? Talk about your total 'botch' jobs. :( spells that become alive and posses the livingLiving Spells... more Eberron to throw into our settiong hodgepodge. 4e FR looks to be shaping up into a complete mess. :rolleyes:
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 03-10-08, 09:16 PM	And so it begins...*sighs* Eat it up!:P
Old Sage 03-10-08, 09:24 PM	I think it's worthwhile pointing that fact that there's some degree of time involved here. When Byers was initially working on the draft for Undead, some of the finer points of the Spellplague, it's aspects, and it's ultimate effects on the Realms, may not have been entirely defined. Thus, when Byers completed work on the book and set it to his editors, he may have been working with what few specific details were available for the Spellplague at the time of his writing. Obviously, since that time, developers have had the opportunities to refine and re-adjust certain aspects of the Spellplague as they desire and, unfortunately, this may have led to some of these supposed inconsistencies.
Kenzuki 03-10-08, 09:26 PM	Eat it up!:P I'll eat you!:P
ywhtptgtfo 03-10-08, 10:26 PM	I kind of disagree with the OP in regards to this. The book shows the floating isles, spells that become alive and posses the living, very erratic spellcasting, undead refusing to obey necromancers , demons that turn on their summoners and etc. That is pretty erratic and wild for me. Well duh. If there's no pretty bluefire and a few magical anormalies, then Mr. Byers needs a spank in the head (but no, he did a good job in the book despite the 4ed crap). But in terms of wild magic, you should perhaps read the Avatar and Shadow of Avatar series to see what it's like to have Mystra die. In those two trilogies, magic had gotten so bad that wizards (and even Mystra's avatar) had spells fail in their faces all the time... let alone summoning an avatar of Bane. And by the way, I don't mean to make a thread that's preaching about how bad 4ed is. This thread is for talking about how inconsistent that the new materials are even between themselves as well as in comparison with some of the very major landmarks of the realms.
johnkretzer 03-10-08, 10:47 PM	I kind of disagree with the OP in regards to this. The book shows the floating isles, spells that become alive and posses the living, very erratic spellcasting, undead refusing to obey necromancers , demons that turn on their summoners and etc. That is pretty erratic and wild for me. I don't know about the other stuff but demon turning on their summoners is common even with magic being normal...that is why summoning demons (or devils for that matter) is always a bad idea and risky.
Lord Karsus 03-11-08, 12:19 AM	Also, it was repeatedly said in numerous 3 ed. products that the Shadow Weave is independent of the Weave. Not sure why they'd contradict that later when there are other possible ways to do away with Shar's toy. -The Shadow Weave has recieved numerous retcons, changes, subtractions, additions, and alterations. To make matters worse, the latest retcon, in the Anauroch module, was 'unretconed' by Rich Baker in his Ask-the-Author thread. Not to mention the fact that there are (seemingly) mistruths sewed by people like Melgaunt Tanthul, in the Return of the Archwizards trilogy. -See what I mean here? The head doesn't know what the hand is doing. ;) And so it begins...*sighs* -Way to contribute in a meaningful way! :thumbsup: I'll eat you! :P -I cannot permit that.
Stigger 03-11-08, 01:16 AM	It isn't really presenting a particularly professional image for the design/devs though... can't say its giving me a whole lot of confidence in 4e Realms, any storyline aspects and concerns completely aside. Seems to be changing and morphing by the week so I'm not sure we can be sure of anything beyond what's in AGHotR at this point... apparently including some of the newer novels. A very strange development for me, since it always seemed that they had a fairly unified and coherent plan up until recently.
ywhtptgtfo 03-11-08, 01:19 AM	-The Shadow Weave has recieved numerous retcons, changes, subtractions, additions, and alterations. To make matters worse, the latest retcon, in the Anauroch module, was 'unretconed' by Rich Baker in his Ask-the-Author thread. Not to mention the fact that there are (seemingly) mistruths sewed by people like Melgaunt Tanthul, in the Return of the Archwizards trilogy. -See what I mean here? The head doesn't know what the hand is doing. Yeah I know... I wonder what's happening to the WotC design team. Their quality of work is definitely not of a professional level. In fact it almost seems like the entire team's screwing around and waiting for their next paycheck...
Lord Karsus 03-11-08, 01:20 AM	A very strange development for me, since it always seemed that they had a fairly unified and coherent plan up until recently. -In my opinion, a continuity with aspects that 'cross lines' with other aspects (novels detailing sourcebook events/sourcebooks detailing novel events, or comic book 'corssovers') is great.
Stigger 03-11-08, 01:23 AM	Ala SW I presume? If so, I'd agree, despite not really being much into novels for SW or FR.
Lord Karsus 03-11-08, 01:27 AM	Ala SW I presume? If so, I'd agree, despite not really being much into novels for SW or FR. -In any medium. Star Wars, Marvel Comics, whatever.
yarethon 03-11-08, 07:54 AM	Well duh. If there's no pretty bluefire and a few magical anormalies, then Mr. Byers needs a spank in the head (but no, he did a good job in the book despite the 4ed crap). But in terms of wild magic, you should perhaps read the Avatar and Shadow of Avatar series to see what it's like to have Mystra die. In those two trilogies, magic had gotten so bad that wizards (and even Mystra's avatar) had spells fail in their faces all the time... let alone summoning an avatar of Bane. And by the way, I don't mean to make a thread that's preaching about how bad 4ed is. This thread is for talking about how inconsistent that the new materials are even between themselves as well as in comparison with some of the very major landmarks of the realms. First of all, you should treat me more respectfully. I gave you no reason to do otherwise. I did read the avatar trilogies years ago, so you don't need to lecture on me about what is wild magic or not. Magic was failing all the time in this novel as well. Time and time again the wizards of the south suffered with that. We even had two masters summoners killed by a very untalented necromancer because of that. I take that Bane knew what Szass was trying to do (summon and bind him) and decided to let it happen. There are hints of that all over the place actually. You could actually "see" that Bane could escape if he wanted, and even Tam acknowledged that. It might not be exactly what happened in the trilogy you mentioned, but for my part I am glad for that. Even though Mystra is dead again, the circumstances are different.
Rauric 03-11-08, 09:22 AM	I cannot speak for everyone else but I am ignoring novels from now on. At least ignore them for "canon". I will still use them to get idea, be entertained, and help me get the "fell" for certain regions.
Soltares 03-11-08, 09:47 AM	Any big setting like this needs to have a 'setting bible' of sorts. Or at least someone with final editorial oversight, like Ed Greenwood for FR or Keith Baker for Eberron, whom they can call and say, 'Hey, I'm writing about the Shadow Weave, what the heck is it again?' I'm not seeing much of that. The ideas seem to be changing fast and furious, and it's resulting in sloppy product and the appearance of unprofessionalism. Ed really tied everything together nicely. Since a bunch of other people have gone and thrown all sorts of other random stuff into his setting, they've been stomping all over each other's 'canon.'
18DELTA 03-11-08, 11:05 AM	-They do seem to be scatter brained about the "Realms".:rolleyes: What happens in 10 years when "The 6E Realms" come out with a new batch of designers?:( Maybe some grognards will be designers then, and it will all be a bad dream that AO had.:eek: 18DELTA:bored:
Lord Karsus 03-11-08, 11:10 AM	Any big setting like this needs to have a 'setting bible' of sorts. -I'd be amazed if such a thing did not exist. Fans have created similar things, such as the databases at Candlekeep, or Forgotten Realms Wikipedia, so it'd be amazing if the official designers and novelists did not have something similar at their fingertips.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 03-11-08, 12:44 PM	I'll eat you!:P :O Now, on topic. I agree with the words of the Old Sage on this.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 03-11-08, 12:48 PM	Seems to be changing and morphing by the week so I'm not sure we can be sure of anything beyond what's in AGHotR at this point... *LOL* The Spellplague is malleable and hard to understand both inside the setting and out of it.
msatran 03-11-08, 01:35 PM	Well, according to Ed, these exist on purpose so a DM can do what they want, but the problem is, this is the ass-backwards way to do it. The setting books should tell you the TRUTH. That way, if the DM wishes to DEVIATE from the truth, he has the ability to do so. If the DM has no idea what the *BEEEEEP* is going on, he can't make a judgement about whether or not he likes it.
ywhtptgtfo 03-11-08, 02:01 PM	First of all, you should treat me more respectfully. I gave you no reason to do otherwise. I don't see anything wrong with my post. I did read the avatar trilogies years ago, so you don't need to lecture on me about what is wild magic or not. Magic was failing all the time in this novel as well. Time and time again the wizards of the south suffered with that. The magnitude difference is rather large. Most mages simply could not cast spells without their spells backfiring on them or doing all sorts of obscure things. In Undead, we still have a magical war there as ridiculous as it sounds.
Ifthir 03-14-08, 12:38 PM	Yeah I know... I wonder what's happening to the WotC design team. Their quality of work is definitely not of a professional level. In fact it almost seems like the entire team's screwing around and waiting for their next paycheck... It sounds to me like the workers are fine, it's the bosses who aren't concerned with anything other then profits. But this is nothing new, even the old 2e books oftentimes had just re-hashed or cut/pasted articles from other 2e books. In the end, as another poster stated, if we keep buying it, why would a company stop selling us garbage? It is far cheaper to make and sell garbage, and the margins are higher. In the global market, the only recourse a consumer has is to 'vote' with their dollars and show these companies that we won't buy garbage time after time. Someone needs to start a petition to save the Forgotten Realms already.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 03-14-08, 01:07 PM	Petitions rarely work, if ever.:( Consider that there are programs in existence that can generate random signatures--that's one reason why they aren't taken seriously.
Ifthir 03-14-08, 01:50 PM	Petitions rarely work, if ever.:( Consider that there are programs in existence that can generate random signatures--that's one reason why they aren't taken seriously. A pity I don't have the Death Moon Orb and a chance to visit the WotC headquarters...
ywhtptgtfo 03-14-08, 02:23 PM	Well, at least Gary Gyrax died before the release of 4ed. In a way, it's lucky that he doesn't get to see his work completely bastardized. But Ed Greenwood, on the other hand, has to witness (and assist) the destruction of his realm just as SiNaFey Hun'ett upon Baenre's (WotC) instructions. You know... what irks me is that Richard Baker's team refused to turn back despite massive negative publicity on his "new FR ideas" by a significant amount of FR fans. There's are certain words that describe people who ignore warnings and are too stubborn to sail away from looming icebergs.
18DELTA 03-14-08, 02:27 PM	A pity I don't have the Death Moon Orb and a chance to visit the WotC headquarters... -:rofl:To bad it was destroyed at the start of "The Spellplague":( 18DELTA
MarkusTay63 03-14-08, 02:41 PM	There's are certain words that describe people who ignore warnings and are too stubborn to sail away from looming icebergs.Leonardo DiCaprio? :confused: I just hope most of the 3rd party companies continue developing for 3e, this way we have something to run to when 4e tanks.
Ifthir 03-14-08, 03:18 PM	-:rofl:To bad it was destroyed at the start of "The Spellplague" Along with any respect I had for the WotC upper management. :pbbbtt:
Lord Karsus 03-14-08, 03:42 PM	I just hope most of the 3rd party companies continue developing for 3e, this way we have something to run to when 4e tanks. -Were there 3rd-party 2e rule-set publishers?
Alediran 03-14-08, 03:45 PM	-Were there 3rd-party 2e rule-set publishers? Not that I know, because the OGL didn't existed during 2nd edition.
SmartPaladin 03-14-08, 03:52 PM	Your just now noticing inconsistencies? I thought those have been sticking up for a while... Doesn't help when you have people reconning recons... It's kinda like reading a comic put out by Marvel, you can stumble over who knows how many inconsistencies, but you keep buying into them hoping, that one day, they'll explain it all.
Lord Karsus 03-14-08, 03:52 PM	Not that I know, because the OGL didn't existed during 2nd edition. -Right, so we can't look to the past, to see what happened. -Well, my thought on the matter is that as long as the Open-Game License continues to be in effect, 3rd-Parties will continue to publish 3rd Edition compatable/d20 products, until 4e takes hold as the preeminent rule set.
Alediran 03-14-08, 03:57 PM	-Well, my thought on the matter is that as long as the Open-Game License continues to be in effect, 3rd-Parties will continue to publish 3rd Edition compatable/d20 products, until 4e takes hold as the preeminent rule set. Instead of until I would say IF.
Lord Karsus 03-14-08, 04:00 PM	Instead of until I would say IF. -No, it will be a 'when', and not an 'if'.
MarkusTay63 03-14-08, 04:03 PM	You know, you guys should head over to the Free Download area and checkout the Birthright Setting stuff - it'll give you a VERY good idea what 4e FR will be like. Giants are more 'Elemental' in Cerilia. Fomorians are clever, powerful creatures. SHADOW is huge there... They got Shades... :rolleyes: And if you Download the Beastiary (Blood Spwan), take ESPECIAL NOTE of the sidebar that describes how the world of Abyrnis was once whole, and how it was seperated into two worlds. When Two Worlds were One... The sages say that long ago, perhaps before humanity existed on Aebrynis, the world of Daylight and the world of Shadow were as one. The landscape of Aebrynis had not completely formed then, and the world could change according to its own rules, without rhyme or reason. A lake might form where a mountain had been, white glaciers moved over deserts, and rivers flowed through the sky. This was a time before the gods, but it ultimately resulted in their creation... This is what happens when someone creates something cr@ppy, and no one buys it, and then later they are given the power over it's greatest rival. :( Someone definately has an agenda.....
Lord Karsus 03-14-08, 04:12 PM	Someone definately has an agenda..... -Maybe not an insidious agenda, but certainly, some of the parallels are striking. There are two potential explanations: One, it's being done unintentionally. In designing my own world, I've noticed that, in a few instances, I've used the same exact names/ideas in different places, without even realizing it, thinking in the second instance that it was a totally new idea. The second might be that, in his mind, these particular ideas were 'cool'*, and never got a real chance, and that they deserve to see the 'light of day'. *Insert whatever catchphrase is applicable these days.
GothicDan 03-14-08, 04:36 PM	Birthrite. The only D&D product I returned. For Dragon Mountain, no less.
Ifthir 03-14-08, 04:42 PM	The second might be that, in his mind, these particular ideas were 'cool'*, and never got a real chance, and that they deserve to see the 'light of day'. Or, like I stated elsewhere in this thread, it is much cheaper (and in accordance with longstanding behavior trends) to just re-package old content, rather than to create it anew.
MarkusTay63 03-14-08, 06:02 PM	The ONLY TSR/WotC setting I have never, EVER purchased a single product for. Birthrite. The only D&D product I returned. For Dragon Mountain, no less.Birthdefect wasn't really D&D, and thats why it bombed. In D&D, you play a character, not a kingdom. Wargames should never be called D&D, it is a misnomer. Toward the end, they even tried to market it as a 'Kingdom vs Kingdom' boardgame - just check out the Downloads section again. It was obviously so bad Hasbro is GIVING it away. :P On another note - Probably this one - -The second might be that, in his mind, these particular ideas were 'cool'*, and never got a real chance, and that they deserve to see the 'light of day'.Everyone thinks what they do is great (otherwise, why do it?). Only problem is, in this case, not to many other people agreed. :rolleyes: For a VERY good idea about how popular it is/was, mosey on over to the Birthright forums right here at WotC... you can here the Crickets chirping. ;)
WotC_RichBaker 03-14-08, 08:25 PM	I'm sure I'll regret being drawn into this, but this deserves response. 1. Giants: A 4e decision I had nothing to do with. That was the work of James, Andy, Rob, Chris, and Bill. I think it's the right call, but I didn't make it. 2. Fomorians: We're bringing them back toward their roots in Irish mythology. The resemblance to anything we said about them in Birthright is coincidental. In all honesty, I don't even *remember* what we said about fomorians in Birthright. It didn't inform our concepting this time around. 3. Our Shadowfell in the new D&D core cosmology is basically the 3e Plane of Shadow. It has little to do with the Shadow World of Birthright. 4. If you're accusing me of setting out to destroy the Realms out of jealousy because it's done better than "my" world of Cerilia, or trying to stamp Cerilia into the Realms because I'm desperate to salvage 15-year-old ideas, you simply have no idea what you're talking about. Neither of those are remotely true. Enough said. You know, you guys should head over to the Free Download area and checkout the Birthright Setting stuff - it'll give you a VERY good idea what 4e FR will be like. Giants are more 'Elemental' in Cerilia. Fomorians are clever, powerful creatures. SHADOW is huge there... They got Shades... :rolleyes: And if you Download the Beastiary (Blood Spwan), take ESPECIAL NOTE of the sidebar that describes how the world of Abyrnis was once whole, and how it was seperated into two worlds. This is what happens when someone creates something cr@ppy, and no one buys it, and then later they are given the power over it's greatest rival. :( Someone definately has an agenda.....
Lord Karsus 03-14-08, 08:51 PM	Everone thinks what they do is great (otherwise, why do it?). -I'll be the first to admit, plenty of the stuff I do, be it writing, artwork, scholarly reports, whatever, isn't the best. ;) For a VERY good idea about how popular it is/was, mosey on over to the Birthright forums right here at WotC... you can here the Crickets chirping. ;) -Pretty much all of the 'defunct settings' sections are mostly empty, even Spelljammer and Planescape, arguably the two most popular 'defunct settings'.
SmartPaladin 03-14-08, 08:55 PM	-I'll be the first to admit, plenty of the stuff I do, be it writing, artwork, scholarly reports, whatever, isn't the best. ;) Yes Lord Karsus, but that's because we are our own worst critic.
Lord Karsus 03-14-08, 09:07 PM	Yes Lord Karsus, but that's because we are our own worst critic. -Well, that just goes to show that not everybody thinks everything they do is great.
krownhunter07 03-15-08, 01:05 AM	I'm sure I'll regret being drawn into this, but this deserves response. I hope that the ignorant wailings of some won't stop you from being so open with us. Not everyone here is so close-minded. ......clearifications sniped for space.... Thanks for the info. 4. If you're accusing me of setting out to destroy the Realms out of jealousy because it's done better than "my" world of Cerilia, or trying to stamp Cerilia into the Realms because I'm desperate to salvage 15-year-old ideas, you simply have no idea what you're talking about. Neither of those are remotely true. In fact, I've fought battles to protect the Realms that you are completely ignorant of. Enough said. I'm embarrassed for them....
Meldread 03-15-08, 02:00 AM	MarkusTay63- I really don't think Rich is out to 'get' the Realms. ;) Really, as far as I am concerned, it has nothing to do with Rich or any of the designers. They make what Hasbro tells them to make. Hasbro does their marketing thing, calls up WotC and says, "Hey we want you to make this - it will sell really well - and then fill in the details." Those people have no love for the setting, likely no personal experience with the setting, and could probably care less what we think so long as Hasbro makes a profit on what is sold and it doesn't screw over too many customers. (And frankly, I think the 'silent majority' will like the new Realm's, but those people are not like us at all.) The Forgotten Realm's was doomed by its novels, their popularity, and the fixation on uber characters and being 'kewl'. Who here honestly believes that MOST people who read the novels and then pick up D&D to play in the Realm's wants to play a lowly adventurer hunting goblins vs how many want to become the next Drizzt or Elminster?
ywhtptgtfo 03-15-08, 02:57 AM	Well if Richard Baker denies reponsibility, then who should we blame for this mess? Some fools over at Hasbro? Some unimaginative freaks in the FR team? At least tell us who the hell made up that wonderful Helm-Tymora-Tyr romance so that we could properly thank him/her/them.
Meldread 03-15-08, 04:49 AM	Well if Richard Baker denies reponsibility, then who should we blame for this mess? Some fools over at Hasbro? Some unimaginative freaks in the FR team? If I had to guess, I'd say It was the marketing folks over at Hasbro. Really, WotC is just an extension of them. Like I said above, the Forgotten Realm's was doomed by its novels, their popularity, and the fixation on uber characters and being 'kewl'. Who here honestly believes that MOST people who read the novels and then pick up D&D to play in the Realm's wants to play a lowly adventurer hunting goblins vs how many want to become the next Drizzt or Elminster?
MarkusTay63 03-15-08, 06:14 AM	Lots of coincidences then, but I'm not big on coincidences. :rolleyes: And I'm anything but 'close-minded', trust me. I had such hope for the 4e rules, and was looking forward to them. Now... not so much. As far as 4e FR is concerned, they can keep it. It just doesn't have that same feel I fell in love with. The broader problem, as I see it, is that P&P RPGs died with Gary Gygax, so it really doesn't matter how good or bad FR or the rules turn out. This hobby doesn't stand a snowballs chance in hell of catching the attention of the eye-candy driven pre-teen crowd. In a world where more kids are suffering from ADD then ever before, static pictures in a book and funny-shaped dice just doesn't cut it anymore. In a world of video games and CGI graphics, todays youth have been trained to NOT use their imaginations, and there's no fighting 'the machine'. Even with the current popularity of LotR, Harry Potter, and Pirates.
Lord Karsus 03-15-08, 11:29 AM	In a world where more kids are suffering from ADD then ever before, static pictures in a book and funny-shaped dice just doesn't cut it anymore. Todays youth have been trained to NOT use their imaginations anymore, and there's no fighting 'the machine'. -Unfortunatley, this is very true.
Jiggawha 03-15-08, 11:55 AM	Todays youth have been trained to NOT use their imaginations anymore, and there's no fighting 'the machine'. well said Markus I would go into ''conspiracy theories'' now
GothicDan 03-15-08, 12:43 PM	Neither of those are remotely true. In fact, I've fought battles to protect the Realms that you are completely ignorant of. Rich, I don't mean to be rude, but I'd like to point out something. The WotC guys decided to can a lot of aspects of FR based on peoples' PERCEPTION of it, due to the omission or misrepresentation of a lot of aspects of it. Without us knowing the information you're talking about, that WotC is privy to, all we have to go off of is our PERCEPTION. So I hope you're not too personally upset by that. WotC seems to honestly be doing the exact opposite of what an entire group of fans has been asking for, for years. If there's more to it than that, I'm sure we'd all like to know. If it's just a coincidence of statistics, then so be it. I know I've pretty much already given up on it all - unless they do something spectacular with Nobanion, and in that case, I might buy a book or two. ;)
Hopeless 03-15-08, 02:24 PM	I'm sure I'll regret being drawn into this, but this deserves response. 1. Giants: A 4e decision I had nothing to do with. That was the work of James, Andy, Rob, Chris, and Bill. I think it's the right call, but I didn't make it. 2. Fomorians: We're bringing them back toward their roots in Irish mythology. The resemblance to anything we said about them in Birthright is coincidental. In all honesty, I don't even *remember* what we said about fomorians in Birthright. It didn't inform our concepting this time around. 3. Our Shadowfell in the new D&D core cosmology is basically the 3e Plane of Shadow. It has little to do with the Shadow World of Birthright. 4. If you're accusing me of setting out to destroy the Realms out of jealousy because it's done better than "my" world of Cerilia, or trying to stamp Cerilia into the Realms because I'm desperate to salvage 15-year-old ideas, you simply have no idea what you're talking about. Neither of those are remotely true. In fact, I've fought battles to protect the Realms that you are completely ignorant of. Enough said. Thank you for replying I suspected there was more to what was going on than any of us actually knew. For what its worth I wish you the best of luck with this as fortunately 4e is coming across as more like the Lord of the Rings and ultimately if those who buy 4e faerun have problems with whats written they still have the option to change what they don't like which is far better than having no 4e faerun at all. By the way I have always wondered why Faerun was being released first, for me the setting discussed in the preview books struck me as a good introduction to 4e with Faerun being the next setting released followed by Eberron and whilst having an extra year between these setting releases I believe it would have been better in the long run. This might not be the right place to mention this but I thought I'd give it a try Take care and all the best!
SmartPaladin 03-15-08, 02:49 PM	I'm sure I'll regret being drawn into this, but this deserves response. 1. Giants: A 4e decision I had nothing to do with. That was the work of James, Andy, Rob, Chris, and Bill. I think it's the right call, but I didn't make it. 2. Fomorians: We're bringing them back toward their roots in Irish mythology. The resemblance to anything we said about them in Birthright is coincidental. In all honesty, I don't even *remember* what we said about fomorians in Birthright. It didn't inform our concepting this time around. 3. Our Shadowfell in the new D&D core cosmology is basically the 3e Plane of Shadow. It has little to do with the Shadow World of Birthright. 4. If you're accusing me of setting out to destroy the Realms out of jealousy because it's done better than "my" world of Cerilia, or trying to stamp Cerilia into the Realms because I'm desperate to salvage 15-year-old ideas, you simply have no idea what you're talking about. Neither of those are remotely true. In fact, I've fought battles to protect the Realms that you are completely ignorant of. Enough said. I don't really mind change. We can't grow, learn, and evolve if we don't change. And that's all evolving really is anyway, change. I like a lot of the stuff all of you developers are coming up with, then only thing that really threw me off was the destruction of X number of Deities. I understood killing off Mystra (again :P), but then you all turned around and started absorbing deities left and right into other deities. Was that brought on by the chaos that was the spellplague? Or was it more of "Oh, well, X and Y over lap nicely, so how about we just make them the same deity?". That left me with a "WTF?!" feeling. Some deities banding together to form little pantheons I could see. Strength in numbers, as it were. And while it sucks that some fan favorite deities will be knocked down in divine ranking, I think we can live. As long as their paired off with other deities who make sense. If you can leave your playerbase with a "Yeah, I could see that" feeling. Then I don't think you really have to worry about all of the Players going nuts over it and bad mouthing you. Also, I would like to apologize for everything I have said about all of you developers. I know you are only doing your job, but look on the bright side. At least you know people care about your product. We wouldn't be whining and moaning if we didn't care. :P
MarkusTay63 03-15-08, 03:02 PM	WotC seems to honestly be doing the exact opposite of what an entire group of fans has been asking for, for years. If there's more to it than that, I'm sure we'd all like to know.The point is that WE aren't their target audience anymore, kids are. A quote from one of the Wizards Presents books - One of the many challenges I was faced with was Thinking about our audience. What do you want to see? lf we want to grow our audience and keep D&D going for another 30 year, what do the 13-year-olds of today want to see in a game?They assume (correctly) that at least half of us are going to still buy whatever they give us anyway, and they hope to replace the other half with new gamers within the first 12 months of release (big gamble part). Eventually, at least half of the hold-outs will come around over the next two years, and that will bring the original audience back up to around 75-80% (the last 20% will still be playing, only using older editions of the rules, like many still do now) On the surface, that looks like a 0 net gain... but they will be replacing 40 yr old Grognards with 13 year olds... who will live MUCH longer and buy products well into the middle of this century. They are not trying to make US happy, they are trying to expand the lifecycle of their Intallectual Property. I cannot begrudge them that. I just think trying to take a widely recognize brand (FR) in the novel and video game marketplace and rebuilding it to attract 'new blood' for the P&P crowd is a big mistake. They should have gone full bore and put all of these 'cool' ideas into a NEW setting - the Core one - not destroy the Realms for a 'longshot'. They could have attracted the 'kiddies' with all the Glitz and glamour of this shiney new world, and gone full-tilt with ad campaigns and cross-merchandising with a video game title and a set of 'beginner's Rules' included in the Miniatures game... which SHOULD be marketed at the BIG toy stores, NOT local hobby shops. Pack a box full of minis and a couple of cool pieces of terrain (just like Hasbro's populare Heroscape game), and throw the D&D basic rules in as an 'extra'. Enough of the generic populace will buy the game at X-mas time, and even if only 1 in 20 kids take a look at the 'advanced rules' (D&D), they would have filled their numbers quota WITHOUT having to trash the FR brand. The Cartoons would play a big part in this - if they produce a well-made one and time it with the release of the boxed 'basic game' (the Miniatures one), the thing would have become an overnight hit. Then release a video-game around the same time and you got yourself another Pokémon, with kids lining up at the store to buy the 'expansions'. As those kids age, they will want to buy the more advanced rules... the REAL D&D rules... And a lot of them wuld have found their way to the Forgotten Realms... the setting for MATURE players. The guys at WotC may know a lot about games, but they don't know jack about business. had they played their hand right, D&D 4th edition could have been this year's Tickle me Elmo. Such short-sightedness... <sigh> That is the real reason why I cry for D&D... I think this is P&P gamings last chance to shine, and I have very bad feeling that they dropped the ball. I really, REALLY hope I'm wrong.
SmartPaladin 03-15-08, 03:13 PM	And a lot of them wuld have found their way to the Forgotten Realms... the setting for MATURE players. Wait? We're mature? When did this happen? I missed it... :eek: Seriously, go reread half of the FR 4E stuff, and try and tell me we're "Mature". If we were mature, then we'd be acting like Adults, and not like little kids crying because someone broke their toy. Not trying to be a prick, but just calling BS to the "Mature" part. *wanders off to go read his comic books and play with his toys*
GothicDan 03-15-08, 03:43 PM	Maturity is knowing when to give appropriate emotional responses. Maturity is accepting passion and love for things, and being functional in society. People who let changes pass them by without a blink are wastes of life, in my opinion. I may complain about the 4E changes - "cry" about it - but in real life, these changes hardly make me stumble over my Physics homework, incorrectly translate the Aeneid, skip fraternity meetings, or not do my research. Those people who can't understand that others' love of artistic endeavors can cause them to be upset when those loves are disfigured are the immature ones, in my opinion. ;)
Meldread 03-15-08, 03:50 PM	MarkusTay63- I don't think you're wrong in regard to the fact that 4E D&D is focused at a new generation of gamers that, frankly, doesn't include us. However, I do think you're wrong when it comes to 4E FR, and in fact I think it would be silly to say the design of 4E FR has not directly influenced the 4E D&D rules. (I would be shocked if it wasn't core in everything but name.) What they've done, as I've said above, is turn FR into what it has essentially been marketed as through the novels. A game of epic heroes and other fantastic things. Seriously, put yourself in the shoes of a 13 year old kid who picks up the FRCS and D&D for the first time, after reading most of the Drizzt and Elminster novels. Do you think that kid is going to want to run a game where he's Joe Blow from Backwater, who gets dropped to his knees by a goblin? No way. He's going to want to play Elminster, Drizzt and all the other types of characters he reads about, and when he realizes he can't do that right out of the box, what does he do? He tosses the game aside. So really, I think they are trying to market D&D 4E FR to the novel crowd, which are mostly pre-teens and teenagers. They hook them on the novels first, then get them to buy the game, and then market the novels through the game. Essentially, you know - building a franchise. ;)
SmartPaladin 03-15-08, 03:52 PM	Maturity is knowing when to give appropriate emotional responses. Maturity is accepting passion and love for things, and being functional in society. People who let changes pass them by without a blink are wastes of life, in my opinion. I may complain about the 4E changes - "cry" about it - but in real life, these changes hardly make me stumble over my Physics homework, incorrectly translate the Aeneid, skip fraternity meetings, or not do my research. Those people who can't understand that others' love of artistic endeavors can cause them to be upset when those loves are disfigured are the immature ones, in my opinion. ;) Well... That's true... But I was trying for humor anyway. Figure I might as well try to get someone to chuckle. *goes back to rereading Cable & Deadpool: Enema of the State*
GothicDan 03-15-08, 04:02 PM	*laughs.* There, I'm chuckling now. ;) Where's my copy of Pheonix: Warsong...?
GothicDan 03-15-08, 04:04 PM	Seriously, put yourself in the shoes of a 13 year old kid who picks up the FRCS and D&D for the first time, after reading most of the Drizzt and Elminster novels. Do you think that kid is going to want to run a game where he's Joe Blow from Backwater, who gets dropped to his knees by a goblin? No way. Psht. I started RPing in the Realms when I was 11. :) And I found the high level NPCs terribly awesome, and still do. I really think it's a matter of generation, not age. Then again, I'm an anachronism, so...
SmartPaladin 03-15-08, 04:14 PM	*laughs.* There, I'm chuckling now. ;) Where's my copy of Pheonix: Warsong...? I have no idea... I think it's running around with my first arc of X-Treme X-Men... Not sure where that SOB is. Psht. I started RPing in the Realms when I was 11. :) And I found the high level NPCs terribly awesome, and still do. I really think it's a matter of generation, not age. Then again, I'm an anachronism, so... I had been wanting to play D&D sense I was about 12-14, can't recall... Enjoyed the books, but half the fun is being your own "hero" and not reading about someone else's. :P
GothicDan 03-15-08, 04:16 PM	I had been wanting to play D&D sense I was about 12-14, can't recall... Enjoyed the books, but half the fun is being your own "hero" and not reading about someone else's. But you can do BOTH. That being said, I never really read the novels, and still rarely do. I prefer D&D sourcebooks, for some reason.
SmartPaladin 03-15-08, 04:31 PM	But you can do BOTH. That being said, I never really read the novels, and still rarely do. I prefer D&D sourcebooks, for some reason. The sourcebooks are nice, but sometimes. I just wanna know what NPC-X was doing where, and why were they there in the first place. Besides, it was books like Elaine Cunningham's Starlight & Shadows that really brought out my love for Rashemi. Which was another reason I liked Bladesinger, because it was set in Rashemi. Sure, the main character, Taen, was a little whiny in it, but he's not as bad as Drizzt's has gotten over the years. So, I'd put him on about Spider-Man level on "whine".
GothicDan 03-15-08, 04:33 PM	I'd never read that book!
SmartPaladin 03-15-08, 04:55 PM	I'd never read that book! Wasn't that bad, Ghostwalker was better. But I loved Bloodwalk more. Quinsareth was just seven shades of awesome.
Ifthir 03-15-08, 06:58 PM	In fact, I've fought battles to protect the Realms that you are completely ignorant of. Enough said. In a void of information, people will speculate. Those speculating will typically decide which 'possibility' sounds most likely, and come to personal conclusions as to what they believe to be the 'likely' scenario. If you don't want people speculating about what happened, there is a simple solution. I realize that from a business and career standpoint you may not be able to reveal the full details of what happened, but for me personally, just knowing there was a battle for the Realms at all says volumes. I think anyone who suggests that you personally are working to do anything other than make the Realms the best it can be, is mistaken. Despite the battles the community has tried wage here, and whatever battles you and others with actual input have waged within the corporate Realms, the reality is that 'we' lost. In the end, the real question is - "How high up the food chain did the decision come, to dilute the work you, Ed, Eric, and the rest of the FR designers did over the years?" Is that something you even can answer, let alone will? In any case, thank you for standing up for creative integrity, if what I read your post to imply is correct.
ywhtptgtfo 03-15-08, 07:33 PM	Even though Richard Baker proclaimed that he had "fought battles to save the realms", I am disinclined to believe the FR designers have nothing to do with the bad decisions made for 4e FR. I mean, the last 10 years of events as we see from GHotR cannot be entirely the work of the Hasbro marketing people can it? Unless of course they have somehow overtaken most of the FR designers' role in that field... And of course, there's no harm in disclosing information of "who-wrote-what" for 4e FR since all the changes are supposed to be perfect and well-received by Hasbro's standards.
MarkusTay63 03-15-08, 08:17 PM	Wait? We're mature? When did this happen? I missed it... :eek: Touché I'm 45, and I was just re-reading my Death of Superman two nights ago... :rolleyes: What I meant was that FR was mature, in that it is made for players who wanted the extra level of depth. If they wanted a low-depth, easy-entry setting they should have made one, or continue on with Greyhawk for that audience. Hmmmm... Greyhawk... it just so happens that this will be the FIRST edition that has nothing to do with that world. There's a reason why they re-made the Core-gods... they didn't want to keep poor ol' Gary on the payroll. As long as they used any part of his setting, he was entitled to royalties. :smirk: So axing GH was a business decision, to increase Hasbro profits. The only reason why FR didn't get the same treatment is because the novels and Video games are too lucrative (hate to disappoint you all, be it ain't us). I would assume - and once again this is pure conjecture on my part - that the 'desperate battles' Rich and others fought for the Realms pertains to exactly that. I'm sure some bean-counter up the food chain had the bright idea of dropping the RPG altogether, because it most likely barely covers its own cost. I'm sure the argument was that the novel and VG line could not be self-sustaining, and therefore they had to eat some losses to keep the FR brand afloat. Its like when the fast food places sell you a double-cheesburger for 99 cents... they don't make anything off of it, but they get you on the $2 soda that costs them about 6 cents (and most of that is the cup). Sometimes you need to take those hits to make more elsewhere, and I'm fairly certain that that is the mysterious 'behind the scenes' fight we don't here about. But I could be dead wrong... it does happen sometimes... ;) Perhaps I am a little harsh, but I speak my mind, and if I suspect something is up, I'd rather have the party explain themselves then sit and stew on it. I have no doubt that everyone at WotC is fighting tooth and nail to make this 4e launch a huge success... after all, their careers probably depend on it. Unfortunately, they weren't handed a whole lot of options from 'on high', and I'm sure developing a new setting wasn't one of them. So, to switch sides for just a sec, I can understand completely how the designers hands were tied, and they had to make some tough decisions. They needed to either make FR profitable, or get rid of it, so they took the 'middle ground' and created their new setting using FR, saving whatever little they could. If thats the case, I applaud them, but I really don't see the big gamble paying off in the end. :(
Meldread 03-15-08, 09:04 PM	If thats the case, I applaud them, but I really don't see the big gamble paying off in the end. I am inclined to agree with most everything you said Markus, except that. My disagreement is based on the belief that the 'audience' that is now attracted to the FR setting will like the 4E Changes. So I think it will pay off. We just aren't part of the target audience. I'm sure WotC would love to keep us as customers, but let's face it - as you pointed out, we really weren't making them enough money to make the enterprise worthwhile. I don't really begrudge WotC for doing what is best for their business, and the designers working hard to find a way to keep themselves employed. I think the 4E FRCS will make a great deal of money for them, because lets face it, everyone is going to go out and buy it even if they have no intention of playing in the setting. Those who just have a passing interest in the Realms will buy it to see what has changed, those of us who know we will dislike the changes will buy it, because like a train wreck - we just have to look. Then there will be those individuals who will purchase anything with a D&D and FR logo on it. Plus, there will be those who are now attracted to the new Realms purchasing it.
MarkusTay63 03-15-08, 09:16 PM	Fair enough; and as I said, I hope I'm wrong. Even broken, I'd rather see FR - and more importantly, D&D itself - continue on for many a year to come. I still have two younger boys to 'train' in the game, and I would love to see the day when I could play with my Grandkids as well. "Really Grandpa? You use to have REAL little toy soldiers to play with, instead of these holograms?" ;)
Dark Wizard 03-15-08, 09:22 PM	I agree with Meldread, I too feel the 4E Realms will do well in sales, at least initially, for all the reasons he listed. It will not make money based on any inherent quality over the old Realms (not saying it's better or worst overall), it will sell well based on the fact that it changed. People like to learn about change, even if they don't like it. What happens afterwards is another story. If the quality is not there, interest dries up very quickly. If it turns out great, then the results will speak for themselves. Personally (now comes the opinion) I feel it will lean towards the former and come 5th edition, WotC will need to give the Realms another shot in the arm due to sagging sales.
Meldread 03-15-08, 09:34 PM	I'm torn on how I hope it will turn out. The sadistic and spiteful side of me wants to see it fail hard. Then I can say, "Yeah, I told you it was crap. I knew it would fall flat." It makes me feel justified in hating it. On the other hand, I then think about the poor saps having to design the thing. I think about them and their jobs. I don't want them to get screwed over simply so I can feel some sense of validation. I'm just very torn. It's like watching someone you love on life support. Part of me wishes they had just pulled the plug and given me the corpse so I could mourn the death and move on. The other part of me is appalled that they are trying to resuscitate the body, and in the process are mutilating it beyond recognition. My solution to dealing with it this far is just to pretend that the Realms is already dead. What they are putting out in 4E is NOT the Realms as we know it. It's an entirely new setting that is some bastardized form of the Realms. When taken as an entirely new setting it might not be all that bad for what it is designed to be, it's just the fact that they want to call it the Realms that bothers me. It is all very petty and silly, but there it is.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 03-16-08, 07:45 PM	Maturity is knowing when to give appropriate emotional responses. Maturity is accepting passion and love for things, and being functional in society. Agreed, totally. Nothing wrong with sharing one's opinion about something, as long as it's civil.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 03-16-08, 07:47 PM	Seriously, put yourself in the shoes of a 13 year old kid who picks up the FRCS and D&D for the first time, after reading most of the Drizzt and Elminster novels. Do you think that kid is going to want to run a game where he's Joe Blow from Backwater, who gets dropped to his knees by a goblin? No way. He's going to want to play Elminster, Drizzt and all the other types of characters he reads about, and when he realizes he can't do that right out of the box, what does he do? He tosses the game aside. Well, IIRC lower level enemies like goblins are supposed to be smarter enemies in 4E.:)
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 03-16-08, 07:51 PM	Touché Hmmmm... Greyhawk... it just so happens that this will be the FIRST edition that has nothing to do with that world. There's a reason why they re-made the Core-gods... they didn't want to keep poor ol' Gary on the payroll. As long as they used any part of his setting, he was entitled to royalties. :smirk: Well, they are still using some deities that originated in Greyhawk, like Pelor.:) And of course, it's possible they'll make a 4E sourcebook for Greyhawk when they are done with Eberron.
MarkusTay63 03-17-08, 01:19 AM	For Nostalga resons, I would like that... but perhaps we should let it R.I.P. at this point. We're seeing first-hand what happens when 'new blood' gets a hold of a classic setting and decides to 'spruce it up'. Greyhawk was GREAT in its day, and it deserves to be put out to pasture with class, not turned into some sort of '4e Freakshow'. :( When taken as an entirely new setting it might not be all that bad for what it is designed to be, it's just the fact that they want to call it the Realms that bothers me. Right on the money... Couldn't agree more. If I look at the 3e Realms as a retired setting, and the 4e Realms as completely NEW and different thing, then I find I'm Okay with it. For awhile... People like to learn about change, even if they don't like it.I like to call it "The Jerry Springer" effect. You HATE what you are looking at, and yet, you can't help but stare in facination.
Muradin 03-17-08, 06:38 AM	Seriously, put yourself in the shoes of a 13 year old kid who picks up the FRCS and D&D for the first time, after reading most of the Drizzt and Elminster novels. Do you think that kid is going to want to run a game where he's Joe Blow from Backwater, who gets dropped to his knees by a goblin? No way. I started play when i was 7. I was barely able to write. And yeah I was fascinated by the Blackstaff and other "big" NPC-s, but I didn't want to play them or be them, I wanted to create my own hero. But of course back then WoW and other MMORPGs weren't existed. So as someone mentioned before me, It's a different generation.
Lord Karsus 03-17-08, 07:52 AM	-I am of the opinion that this thread can use a msatran composed song...
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 03-17-08, 02:53 PM	For Nostalga resons, I would like that... but perhaps we should let it R.I.P. at this point. We're seeing first-hand what happens when 'new blood' gets a hold of a classic setting and decides to 'spruce it up'. Greyhawk was GREAT in its day, and it deserves to be put out to pasture with class, not turned into some sort of '4e Freakshow'. :( Good point. If they redid Greyhawk for 4E, how radical would the changes be? :-/
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 03-17-08, 02:55 PM	I started play when i was 7. I was barely able to write. And yeah I was fascinated by the Blackstaff and other "big" NPC-s, but I didn't want to play them or be them, I wanted to create my own hero. But of course back then WoW and other MMORPGs weren't existed. So as someone mentioned before me, It's a different generation. Well, I think even in the "new generation" there are people like you describe--and of course, whatever one thinks of MMORPGs, they are about creating your own heroes, not playing as famous established characters.
Lord Karsus 03-17-08, 05:23 PM	I like to call it "The Jerry Springer" effect. You HATE what you are looking at, and yet, you can't help but stare in facination. -Yeah, that has a 'scientific' name: rubbernecking. Having driven on the LIE on more than one occasion, I am sure you are familiar with it, and it's consequences. ;)
Muradin 03-17-08, 05:52 PM	Originally Posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin whatever one thinks of MMORPGs, they are about creating your own heroes, not playing as famous established characters. True. However what I wanted to say is these new generation players (or whatever we call them) are under the effect of the MMORPGs. So all they want is "hack", and not role-play. And they can do this most easily if they are at higher levels (like Blackstaff for example). Think of the Circle of Death spell for instance. I even had a player who ran a paladin, and hacked half of the world before I stopped him:rolleyes:
Dark Wizard 03-18-08, 01:40 AM	4. If you're accusing me of setting out to destroy the Realms out of jealousy because it's done better than "my" world of Cerilia, or trying to stamp Cerilia into the Realms because I'm desperate to salvage 15-year-old ideas, you simply have no idea what you're talking about. Neither of those are remotely true. In fact, I've fought battles to protect the Realms that you are completely ignorant of. Enough said. I do thank and commend you for stepping into this. At the same time, since you're here... I don't think anyone purposely meant to state things as accusingly as you suspect. Though it stings doesn't it? You know those thoughts against you to be absolutely false, yet they don't sit right with you as you read them. That's exactly how some fans feel. The Realms were physically and thematically changed based on perceptions. Some feel WotC did not do enough to attempt to change those perceptions before taking these drastic steps to "save the Realms as we know it." Even with these drastic changes, there still doesn't seem to be enough genuine effort to address those perceptions. For years, fans have fought against those who put forth the usual claims agianst the Realms. For years many have tried to change that perception, to put forth explanations, examples and theories on why those claims against the Realms were wrong, misinterpreted, etc. Those efforts were limited of course because they were never official statements. The designers know more than anyone the power of concepts and words like "official" and "canon." Imagine the surprise to some fans when the official company statements goes against everything they've been trying to alleviate for years. All their work to help others understand why they find the setting enjoyable wasted. WotC basically told them, "Thanks, but no thanks." WotC might not see it that way, but it is a betrayal of fan loyalty. Making sales is one thing, but so far WotC hasn't thrown that portion of fans anything of worth, just more news and information on what has changed, why it has changed and just how some fans foolish were for trying to play in such a broke setting as the old Realms. Interview after interview, blog post after blog post, the designers have hammered the same statements, droning on and on against the bad points of old Realms. At this point I'm actually wondering why I even bother with the Realms anymore. Were any parts of the setting so wonderful that it can counter this tiring perception war of attrition by the designers? I don't know, my personal brand allegiance to the Realms grows more tenuous by the day. For some who don't like the new Realms, it is because a certain piece changed in the update. For some it's the characters, or the gods, or the new focus, or the psychedelic, world merging aspects. Above it all I think hangs this pervasive attitude of WotC just not caring, brilliantly highlighted by them so easily dropping a portion of their fan base. The designers say, "but old fans will fall in love with the new Realms." Well, it just doesn't work that way all of the time. You might say, of course the designers care. It is because they care that they're doing this. Whether it's bits changed here and there or the out-of-game knowledge regarding why, I don't think some fans buy that anymore, even if that is the truth. This attitude will emanate out to other fans, already these boards have been flooded with waves of negativity at each release of new previews. Even if that is the minority, something is up, perceptions work both ways, for both sides of the view.
MarkusTay63 03-18-08, 02:25 AM	Excellent point, DW (you are petty good using those 'word' thingies :P ) Perception, as it has been explained to us, is MORE important then TRUTH, so even though FR was never really 'broken', it had to be 'fixed' anyway, because people believed it truly was 'broken'. So now the shoe is on the other foot, as DW has so eloquently pointed out - It doesn't matter if everything I say or suspect is an outright lie, as long as I believe it to be true. I have made certain connections - I'm not so conceited to think I'm that much more clever then the rest of the planet - that I'm sure others have been seeing and wondering about. This 'thing' looks like Dragonlance, and that 'thing' looks like Greyhawk, while this looks like Birthright and this part looks like Warcraft, or Eberron, etc, etc.... So weather it is true or not that this new setting was built by pasting ideas together from other settings, it is our PERCEPTION that it was that is ALL important... because isn't that what WotC has taught us? ;) And like DW has also pointed out, they've been telling us how bad the game was, so maybe I should just be playing a different game? Since the guys at one of the Euro-cons has already mentioned 5e, isn't it quite obvious that 4e is already broken and needs to be fixed? After all, if it is as great as they say, why are they already planning to replace it? Perception is very funny thing........ :cool:
Stigger 03-18-08, 03:29 AM	I still think they fundamentally are setting out to fix a perception that they don't truly understand at the core, so we end up with a method that deals with individual symptoms, rather than any substantive causes. Just think really... what if the 'too big' problem with the Realms stemmed not from the older editions, but the constant stream of novels running off of the presses? Its fairly easy to pick up a .pdf and browse through the categorized sections, but a little harder to do with a novel... what if that's the 'history' that's putting off the new fans? I'm not saying that's necessarily the case, simply a something chilling possibility, but mistakes in market research and the interpretation of the data gathered aren't exactly unheard of, even by the best and brightest of companies.
MarkusTay63 03-18-08, 03:54 AM	If they blame the novels, they will be blaming themselves, and they are not about to do that, since they are 'self-created' best-selling authors. Easier to blame the 'misinformed' Game community, and make us pay for their mistakes. Also, since the single biggest complaint about the novels is their constant deviation from past lore, they decided to throw out the past lore, rather then their wonderful novels. aren't they a great buncha guys? ;) I guess Mr. Spock was wrong - the needs of the few do indeed outwiegh the needs of the many. :(
Stigger 03-18-08, 06:48 AM	A tad bit cynical tonight Markus? In all honesty, I've never gotten the impression from Mr. Baker that he had anything but love for the setting... Perkins I'm not so sure about, but that's a different kettle of fish entirely. On another note, my wife tends to chalk it up to marking the territory for the 4e guys, that the feel some need to 'leave their mark' and so have little compunction about preserving lore if it gets in the way of them doing that. I think that's probably a bit extreme in its cynicism, but one never knows.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 03-18-08, 12:19 PM	Just think really... what if the 'too big' problem with the Realms stemmed not from the older editions, but the constant stream of novels running off of the presses? Its fairly easy to pick up a .pdf and browse through the categorized sections, but a little harder to do with a novel... what if that's the 'history' that's putting off the new fans? That's definitely possible. People were actually complaining about the FRCS being "hard to understand." I wonder how well they digested lore from the novels, assuming they read them? And of course, novels don't have indexes. To top it all off, novels are still going to be canon.
Lord Karsus 03-18-08, 12:32 PM	That's definitely possible. People were actually complaining about the FRCS being "hard to understand." I wonder how well they digested lore from the novels, assuming they read them? And of course, novels don't have indexes. -I still can't believe said individual(s) wasn't/weren't being facetious.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 03-18-08, 12:42 PM	-I still can't believe said individual(s) wasn't/weren't being facetious. I find it hard to believe, myself. But nowadays, you never know!
Lord Karsus 03-18-08, 12:51 PM	I find it hard to believe, myself. But nowadays, you never know! -No, no you can't.
MarkusTay63 03-18-08, 12:55 PM	If someone had trouble understanding the 3e FRCS, then they should stick to Mario Brothers. :rolleyes: A tad bit cynical tonight Markus? In all honesty, I've never gotten the impression from Mr. Baker that he had anything but love for the setting... Perkins I'm not so sure about, but that's a different kettle of fish entirely.I'm ALWAYS cynical - I tend to think the worst of people, because I happen to know that 99% of the human race are vile, self-centered, self-serving creatures. Myself included. ;) On another note, my wife tends to chalk it up to marking the territory for the 4e guys, that the feel some need to 'leave their mark' and so have little compunction about preserving lore if it gets in the way of them doing that. I think that's probably a bit extreme in its cynicism, but one never knows.Your wife is a VERY intelligent woman. :D It does seem everyone wants to remembered for their contributions - a bit of 'immortality' as it were. I think the current team will definately go down in history.... :smirk:
Lord Karsus 03-18-08, 12:59 PM	If someone had trouble understanding the 3e FRCS, then they should stick to Mario Brothers. :rolleyes: -You mean, something like this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vyqvFx_VwBw). -I learned that from Rino. ;) Your wife is a VERY intelligent woman. :D -I don't remember exactly why, but I know that I am supposed to fear Mrs. Stigger.
MarkusTay63 03-18-08, 01:09 PM	She sounds like a very strong, dominant woman... Mmmmmmm.... :D Anyhow, whats the deal with those Youtube 'poop' videos? They are just too freakin' weird!
Lord Karsus 03-18-08, 01:22 PM	She sounds like a very strong, dominant woman... -She's also pretty, nice, knowledgable about the Forgotten Realms, and owes us candy (don't think I didn't forget that! :P), too. -No, I'm not being serious about the candy part. Candy is everywhere. Anyhow, whats the deal with those Youtube 'poop' videos? They are just too freakin' weird! -I don't know either. She introduced them to me. Basically, I think they are a result of too much time, plus media mixing computer programs, plus liberal amounts of cough syrup and assorted other phramaceuticals.
Stigger 03-18-08, 03:19 PM	I'm ALWAYS cynical - I tend to think the worst of people, because I happen to know that 99% of the human race are vile, self-centered, self-serving creatures. Myself included. ;) Oh, I know they are... its hard not to remember that with my wife around, given her rage at them, I just like to think she's wrong about it. I know she's not, but its one of those conceits that lets me get up in the morning... Your wife is a VERY intelligent woman. :D It does seem everyone wants to remembered for their contributions - a bit of 'immortality' as it were. I think the current team will definately go down in history.... :smirk: Yes she is... if only I could really convince her of that. She's probably be far more dangerous if I managed that one though. Not sure why, but she tends to equate dyslexia with being "stupid", a belief I've been laboring for years to rid her of.
SmartPaladin 03-18-08, 04:02 PM	Yes she is... if only I could really convince her of that. She's probably be far more dangerous if I managed that one though. Not sure why, but she tends to equate dyslexia with being "stupid", a belief I've been laboring for years to rid her of. We dyslexics are not stupid... Our internal wiring is just all messed up. Nothing like having to rewire one's self... The only time I "write" is when I type, then rest of the time, I don't "write", I "draw" the letters. Figure that one out. Now a days, my dyslexia doesn't bother me so much. The only time it gives me trouble is when I just glance at something and I see a different word. Best had to be this morning, I had my roommates phone and it had a picture of his girlfriend as it's wallpaper, no problem there. I read the banner, I saw "I <3 my mommy." I had to look again to see "I <3 my hunny." Yes, he's dyslexic too. But my dyslexia is way better then his...
Stigger 03-18-08, 06:18 PM	Eep... I can't even get her to type... she can't spell to save her life, as the letters just jumble up in her head as she writes them, so she comes across very poorly. She finds it horribly embarrassing, so she avoids places like this to spare herself the discomfort... which is occassionally annoying as she reads over my shoulder to keep up with stuff, but oh well. Drawing the letters though... that's an interesting idea I'll have to run by her. Worth a shot anyway.
krownhunter07 03-18-08, 09:43 PM	I too have dyslexia. It's far less troubling on that I'm older, but spell check is my friend. ;)
Lykor 03-18-08, 11:18 PM	The smartest guy in my college graduating class (Engineering, no less) was dyslexic. I think he had a perfect 4.0 dual major, with a minor in math, in addition to being a top tier jazz musician, black belt in karate, etc. He ended up getting hired by one of the big aerospace firms in Wichita for like 80k as a starting salary. Dyslexics are just as smart as everyone else, just see letters a bit wierd.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 03-19-08, 12:00 PM	-You mean, something like this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vyqvFx_VwBw). -I learned that from Rino. ;) OMG, that ROCKS!:cool: Literally!
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 03-19-08, 12:01 PM	Anyhow, whats the deal with those Youtube 'poop' videos? The big deal about them is that I find them to be DAMN FUNNY!:rofl:
Lord Karsus 03-19-08, 02:29 PM	-You know, I just realized...Mario and Luigi both have black moustaches, and black eyebrows, but brown hair...
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 03-19-08, 09:02 PM	-You know, I just realized...Mario and Luigi both have black moustaches, and black eyebrows, but brown hair... Yup, and they are refered to as "the Mario Brothers" even though "Mario" isn't their last name...
Lord Karsus 03-19-08, 10:28 PM	Yup, and they are refered to as "the Mario Brothers" even though "Mario" isn't their last name... -Whoa...Those crazy Italians...
SmartPaladin 03-20-08, 01:10 AM	Yup, and they are refered to as "the Mario Brothers" even though "Mario" isn't their last name... I thought it was... Huh, so what is their last name?
Lord Karsus 03-20-08, 02:09 AM	I thought it was... Huh, so what is their last name? -Maybe "Jumpman", since that is the name he was first credited with, in the Donkey Kong arcade game. Admittedly, "Jumpman" doesn't sound very Italian. Maybe it's "Segali", the person the character of Mario is based off of.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 03-20-08, 11:19 AM	Mario Jumpman? LOL, well, it would make sense.:) I do like "Segali" though.
MarkusTay63 03-20-08, 01:59 PM	Mario Jumpmanolli :D Anyhow, having a VERY severe case of ADD, I can understand some of what you guys and Stigger's wife goes through. I have to literally 'talk to myself' in order to finish stuff, and it makes me look nuts to my customers (who all think I'm I'm nuts anyway, but its a good kind of 'crazy genius' nuts :P ). I have to keep telling myself, over and over, "just finish this and you can goto the next thing"... the minute my concentration breaks, I walk away and start something else. I've left walls half-painted, cuts in wood half complete (leaving the saw in the cut!), etc, etc... Its a difficult battle, but I would never consider myself stupid, and neither should anyone with Dyslexia. We're wired differently, thats all. Question: I know so little about it - do the SAME letters get exchanged all the time with Dyslexia? Or is it random? I thought I remember seeing something where the guy always had the same two letters transposed. If thats the case, I would just modify a Keyboard and go to town. :D
Stigger 03-20-08, 03:06 PM	Think a lot of it depends on the severity of the dyslexia... but I'm certainly no expert on the subject, so take that with a grain of salt perhaps.
SmartPaladin 03-20-08, 03:11 PM	Mario Jumpmanolli :D Anyhow, having a VERY severe case of ADD, I can understand some of what you guys and Stigger's wife goes through. I have to literally 'talk to myself' in order to finish stuff, and it makes me look nuts to my customers (who all think I'm I'm nuts anyway, but its a good kind of 'crazy genius' nuts :P ). I have to keep telling myself, over and over, "just finish this and you can goto the next thing"... the minute my concentration breaks, I walk away and start something else. I've left walls half-painted, cuts in wood have complete (leaving the saw in the cut!), etc, etc... Its a difficult battle, but I would never consider myself stupid, and neither should anyone with Dyslexia. We're wired differently, thats all. Question: I know so little about it - do the SAME letters get exchanged all the time with Dyslexia? Or is it random? I thought I remember seeing something where the guy always had the same two letters transposed. If thats the case, I would just modify a Keyboard and go to town. :D I have ADD as well, though it's not as bad. Mostly my mind wanders, that's how Lord Karsus would be able to stop me if he was gonna take over the realms. He'd distract me with alot of cool stuff that I'd just have to play with until I get bored. :P Video games have taught me patience... Well, not really... But it has helped. :P For me, it's not always the same letters. Some times it's whole words, same times it a few letters just jumping around and changing place. Hell, I've had letters and words just get up and move while I was reading. Makes it really hard to finish a book. I was tested once to see how dyslexic I was when I was younger, I had this thing over my eyes that was just recording them or something... Don't really remember, and I was to read this whole chapter on the computer. No problem, I do it, takes me longer then most kids because I'm dyslexic, but I do it. When it's over, the lady who tested me looked over the read out, and told me and my Mother that I sometimes reread the same passage at least 3 times. Not sure why, maybe again because of letters just moving around and disappearing.
ywhtptgtfo 03-20-08, 10:55 PM	I have ADD as well, though it's not as bad. Mostly my mind wanders, that's how Lord Karsus would be able to stop me if he was gonna take over the realms. He'd distract me with alot of cool stuff that I'd just have to play with until I get bored. :P Video games have taught me patience... Well, not really... But it has helped. :P For me, it's not always the same letters. Some times it's whole words, same times it a few letters just jumping around and changing place. Hell, I've had letters and words just get up and move while I was reading. Makes it really hard to finish a book. I was tested once to see how dyslexic I was when I was younger, I had this thing over my eyes that was just recording them or something... Don't really remember, and I was to read this whole chapter on the computer. No problem, I do it, takes me longer then most kids because I'm dyslexic, but I do it. When it's over, the lady who tested me looked over the read out, and told me and my Mother that I sometimes reread the same passage at least 3 times. Not sure why, maybe again because of letters just moving around and disappearing. That's why you are a smart paladin.
Lord Karsus 03-20-08, 11:54 PM	Mostly my mind wanders, that's how Lord Karsus would be able to stop me if he was gonna take over the realms. -Here, have this Twix. Two for you, none for me. That should distract you long enough...;)
SmartPaladin 03-21-08, 02:55 AM	That's why you are a smart paladin. Umm... No? :thinks: -Here, have this Twix. Two for you, none for me. That should distract you long enough...;) You can't distract me with food. I can still eat and follow a thought from one end to the other. I just like branching off every now and then to follow a new thought, or sometimes I lose my train of thought...
MarkusTay63 03-21-08, 03:57 PM	I'll do anything for a Twixt bar! :drool: Anyhow, I just had NEW thought! There has been some talk somewhere (here or at CK, can't remember which) that the whole purpose of the 'Abeir' thing is so that we have a 'reset button' if 4e FR tanks. That would be the reason why they are saying those 'missing' regions still exists, but have been 'moved' to Abeir. In that way, they can bring anything back if neccessary. Abeir, then, is just the 4e 'storage closet', to allow them to use and lose whatever they want, and still be able to 'fix' later! Here's what I'm thinking now - What if Toril really ISN'T Toril! What if the entire 4e setting is set on Abeir, and really large chunks of THAT world have been exchanged with Toril! So instead of strange chunks of Abeir appearing all over the new setting, in reality a great deal more of Toril appeared in Abeir, and THAT'S the world of 4e! :eek: Why the heck would they do THAT, you ask? Because then, we still have Toril floating safely somewhere, where all the '4e badness' never happened. How is that possible? Those Torillian locales didn't really move at all... they were COPIED, the same way Ravenloft used to copy stuff when it was moved there! The ruins of Castle Ravenloft still existed in GH, even though it was in RL, and the same thing happened with Lord Soth's domain in DL - it existed in both places at the same time! Now, we have a D&D precedent of planes 'copying' parts of other planes, which lends credence to my theory, and it gives the WotC team an 'out' if the need it. Nothing happened to the 'real' Toril... and they can bring it back anytime they want (like, say, when 4e FR flounders). What does everyone think? A little too 'out there' to be feasable?
Lord Karsus 03-21-08, 04:19 PM	I'll do anything for a Twixt bar! :drool: -Excellent. Get writing on those promised articles! :P There has been some talk somewhere (here or at CK, can't remember which) that the whole purpose of the 'Abeir' thing is so that we have a 'reset button' if 4e FR tanks. -How's that? That, if things do poorly, the regions that were eliminated magically reappear? But, that does not cause time to move backwards, which is the real reason why there is so much outcry, and causes people to become so decisive on the issue. Or that major plot changes, such as deicides, or deific mergers, another large point of contention, will still be canon. That would be the reason why they are saying those 'missing' regions still exists, but have been 'moved' to Abeir. In that way, they can bring anything back if neccessary. -Where did you read this? I just recall that, Maztica, for instance, vanished, and was replaced by part of 'Abeir', and no that Maztica and this portion of 'Abeir' switched places.
MarkusTay63 03-21-08, 05:16 PM	I think it was Brian J., but I'm not 100% certain - might have been Krash, or Rich. One of the designers said that Maztica STILL EXISTED, it just swapped places with whatever was on Abeir. Also, the last few weeks I've been reading the last few pages of the GHotR over and over, and there are tons of little tidbits in there I think we all may have overlooked, like - 1379 DR Year of the Lost Keep Amn's colonization effort in Chult finally begin to pay off the investment in ships, men, and gold. An entire tribe of savage humanoids is forcibly transplaned from the deep jungles and resettled in a caged preserve in the Amnish city of Athkatla. The parasitic disease that sweeps through Athkatla in 1379 and finally kills one of the Council of Six is blamed on the presence of the preserve, but before the savages can be eradicated, they escape to Amn's interior. Accent, mine -Obviously, there was something in Maztica that the designers wanted to keep, and they moved it to the mainland Realms before nuking Maztica. At first, I thought they were saving the human Mazticans, but now I'm not so sure, because of the specific use of the word 'humanoid'. However, if we think outside of game terminology, that word does indeed cover human races as well.
Lord Karsus 03-21-08, 05:22 PM	Obviously, there was something in Maztica that the designers wanted to keep, and they moved it to the mainland Realms before nuking Maztica. -Of course. If you look at AGHotR, towards the end, there are plenty of instances of people/items/things/groups/races coming from Maztica to Faerūn. Forced, accidentally, willingly, whatever.
Iakhovas 03-21-08, 06:24 PM	Sorry guys. There is no reset button being baked into the setting.
MarkusTay63 03-21-08, 06:27 PM	Dashing our hopes, eh? ;)
Iakhovas 03-21-08, 07:47 PM	In my line of business it's called 'Managing Expectations'. :)
Lord Karsus 03-21-08, 09:11 PM	Dashing our hopes, eh? ;) -Don't worry, MT. Remember, the Spellplague was intended all along...;)
MarkusTay63 03-21-08, 10:23 PM	The Spellplague, at this point, I think is whatever people want it to be - Use it, don't use it, change it, avoid it, make it worse... whatever. Just don't stop playing FR... EVA! :D In my line of business it's called 'Managing Expectations'. :)Good Answer :D You should have been a doctor. ;)
Lord Karsus 03-21-08, 10:34 PM	Just don't stop playing FR... EVA! :D -I never started...:(
MarkusTay63 03-21-08, 10:50 PM	You really need to get your 'game on'... aren't you NJ-NY guys doing one now? :confused:
Lord Karsus 03-21-08, 11:01 PM	You really need to get your 'game on'... aren't you NJ-NY guys doing one now? :confused: -I have no clue, anymore...:confused:
Morholdt 03-24-08, 12:33 AM	For the record, because it was mentioned a few pages back, I am a relative newcomer to FR who was and is still put off by the perceived complexity of it. In my case this stems completely from the novels. None of that stuff is in any of the source-books I purchased and yet so many players out there cite it as canon and use it in game. It simply is not feasible for me to buy and read alll the sourcebooks and then all of the novels (especially since the novels are kind of pulp and are written for a younger audience than myself). DMing in FR is a bloody nightmare with all the so-called FR experts out there constantly calling you on things that changed in this novel and that. I like the setting - I really do, but the novels as canon are really a pain in the butt. I'm not suggesting canning them. I'm sure they are a much more profitable product than the Campaign setting, but it would be very nice if they were either 1) not so damned epic that one can't run a game without running into something that a novel has changed or 2) make them not canon. If you want to incorporate them into the story, then do so with the next campaign setting update. That's one man's take on it.
Krash 03-24-08, 06:29 AM	I think it was Brian J., but I'm not 100% certain - might have been Krash, or Rich. Wasn't me. I know nothing more than the rest of you guys regarding the Realms in 4E. -- George Krashos
MarkusTay63 03-24-08, 12:05 PM	I like the setting - I really do, but the novels as canon are really a pain in the butt.From an FR 'Newb', stating PRECISELY what is wrong with FR. Its not the setting... never WAS, never will be... The 'egomaniacs' need stop all the 'self-promotion', and get back to what matters- great game design. If they spent half as much time working on game material as they do writing their 'best-sellers' (:yuck:), maybe FR wouldn't be in the dire straights it's in. BTW, the next expansion for MtG is called Shadowmoor... does that suprise anybody?! Wasn't me. I know nothing more than the rest of you guys regarding the Realms in 4E.Didn't think it was, thats why I stated I was fairly certain it was Brian. Pretty much only you three respond here with any regularity. Hey George - does that mean there's a chance we will see some of your great articles appearing over in the new Pathfinder setting? I miss your Dragon contributions...
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 03-24-08, 12:37 PM	The Spellplague, at this point, I think is whatever people want it to be... And truth be told, that's a great way to sell an idea (or anything else, for that matter). It all does seem rather ill-defined.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 03-24-08, 12:37 PM	-I have no clue, anymore...:confused: We are, at my house, hopefully this Friday.:)
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 03-24-08, 12:40 PM	DMing in FR is a bloody nightmare with all the so-called FR experts out there constantly calling you on things that changed in this novel and that. My suggestion is to start off with the disclaimer that your Realms is your Realms, and if people are going to play a game there, they have to accept that gracefully (no arguing about what should or should not be there because of what's "canon").
MarkusTay63 03-24-08, 12:49 PM	Absitively, posolutely right, Rinon. NO GAME is the canon Realms! Outside of the sourcebooks, the only other 'thing' taking place in the canon Realms are the novels - once you sit down for your first session, YOUR reality diverges from the canon one - unless you think somehow your PCs all simultaneously appeared in everyone elses game. That means every single FR campaign in the world is an 'alternate reality', so you can do and change whatever you wish. Don't let the Grognards spoil your game. ;) Unfortunely, the 'Living Realms' may change all that, and then we will have all sorts of 'nasty people' affecting the canon Realms. :(
Lord Karsus 03-24-08, 01:00 PM	We are, at my house, hopefully this Friday.:) -Oh. I wish I knew this information. NO GAME is the canon Realms! -From what I've gathered thus far, msatran's is pretty much as close as you get. ;)
18DELTA 03-24-08, 01:16 PM	-Oh. I wish I knew this information. -So...you ganna crash their little party.:P 18DELTA;)
Lord Karsus 03-24-08, 01:18 PM	-So...you ganna crash their little party.:P -If one can crash an engagement after being invited, then sure.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 03-24-08, 01:37 PM	*chuckles* LK, check your email.
Lord Karsus 03-24-08, 01:50 PM	*chuckles* LK, check your email. -That, I'll do.
SmartPaladin 03-24-08, 06:25 PM	One is jealous of Lord Karsus and Rinonalyrna Fathomlin... One left all of one's D&D gaming buddies back in Georgia! Why did one move again? Oh, yeah... Girlfriend... Nevermind. :P
MarkusTay63 03-24-08, 07:44 PM	Maybe if 'one' didn't speak in the 'third person' all the time, 'one' would have more friends. :P To play D&D with, that is. ;)
Lord Karsus 03-24-08, 11:11 PM	One is jealous of Lord Karsus and Rinonalyrna Fathomlin... One left all of one's D&D gaming buddies back in Georgia! Why did one move again? Oh, yeah... Girlfriend... Nevermind. :P -Good reason. Maybe if 'one' didn't speak in the 'third person' all the time, 'one' would have more friends. :P To play D&D with, that is. ;) -D&D people might think that's cool, and invite said person to play D&D. Who knows?
Morholdt 03-24-08, 11:55 PM	NO GAME is the canon Realms! Outside of the sourcebooks, the only other 'thing' taking place in the canon Realms are the novels - once you sit down for your first session, YOUR reality diverges from the canon one - unless you think somehow your PCs all simultaneously appeared in everyone elses game. Thank you. That is true and I may have overstated my case. I 'play by post' more often than not, and I DM more often than not. I very much enjoy how FR fans are very immersed in their characters and their place in the world. I wouldn't change that but I do find it frustrating to always lack information they seem to have and only after an hour of searching for the source discovering that it is some novel that has been published since my Campaign Setting has been updated. One can work around it, but I am just stating what made me uncomfortable about getting into FR to begin with and what has remained the only thing I find unpleasant about it. If these boards have taught me anything, its that FR players HATE when you change things in their world. Not knowing what happened in the last Drizzt novel and so inadvertantly changing history almost always ruffles feathers. EDIT: Anyway, I am not an FR hater and don't wish to end up arguing a position I don't believe. FR is an excellent setting. I just wanted to add my two cents on the subject of the novels since it had come up and I was in a position to comment from a newb's perspective.
MarkusTay63 03-25-08, 01:02 AM	I'll tell you the same thing I tell everyone else who asks... or is willing to listen. IGNORE the novels, you're better off. And if you really need to know the canon about something, you can come here and ask all of us here, or over at CandleKeep.com (http://forum.candlekeep.com/default.asp). CK might take a little longer to answer, because they don't have the members we do here, but there information is likely to be more precise, and include 'tidbits' most folks don't know (including your players!)
Lord Karsus 03-25-08, 01:19 AM	CK might take a little longer to answer, because they don't have the members we do here, but there information is likely to be more precise, and include 'tidbits' most folks don't know (including your players!) -Hey, hey, what are you trying to say? :P
Dark Wizard 03-25-08, 01:30 AM	I don't hate change, not even RSEs. It's just when they pile them on and orchestrate the whole thing under a super-RSE that things start to get shaky.
MarkusTay63 03-25-08, 01:35 AM	But we NEEDED them.. they told us so... They wouldn't lie to us, would they? :( That means James Wyatt must be lying to the Eberron people, because obviously every world needs a Spellplague to get it ready for 4e. :rolleyes: FR doesn't exist anymore - things that exist get their own logo. FR has become a 'non-entity' floating in the Abyss - they are only keeping a semblance of it around so they can push more 'novels'. We ae this editions Greyhawk. I don't want a novel setting, I want a game setting, and I know just where to go to find one. :ahem:
Stigger 03-25-08, 02:47 AM	Feh, vote with your <currency of choice> and be done with it... all we really can do at this point.
Alediran 03-25-08, 10:07 AM	And come to The Vault, don't forget The Vault.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 03-25-08, 01:26 PM	If these boards have taught me anything, its that FR players HATE when you change things in their world. Nope, I couldn't care less if someone uses the Realms however they want to. And when I play a game set in the FR, I accept that the setting is the DM's version of the FR setting, not necessarily the "canon" one. My own personal version of the Realms isn't "canon." For the record, I don't even LIKE what happened in the latest Drizzt novel!
Stigger 03-25-08, 01:59 PM	I really gotta set up an account there tonight... keep getting sidetracked. :(
Krash 03-25-08, 07:49 PM	Hey George - does that mean there's a chance we will see some of your great articles appearing over in the new Pathfinder setting? I miss your Dragon contributions... I did have a conversation with Wes Schneider and Eric Boyd at GEN-CON regarding writing for Pathfinder. Wes (as all of my dealings with him have shown) was very accomodating and enthusiastic regarding future input. You know, I might just pick up the Pathfinder stuff at my FLGS and look into it. -- George Krashos
Alediran 03-26-08, 10:29 AM	At least the rules improvement of Pathfinder sound great, it's the first time in my life that they made me think about making a Specialist Wizard. The previews I've seen from the setting also sound great, although I'm expecting something about elven cities.
MarkusTay63 03-26-08, 03:26 PM	Yup, it looks like we have a winner. :D Alediran, I know I haven't participated much (almost not at all) over at The Vault, but we should consider bringing in the 3.75 (Pathfinder) rules into anything we do, or perhaps at least have sidebars detailing how to use the new rules with the new material we generate. I was going to do the three Netbooks I am working on as cross-compatible with 3e/4e, but now I'm thinking 3.5/Pathfinder instead. It will probably be MUCh easier to adapt the stuff across those platforms, then try and blend 3e and 4e together into anything resembling coherent rules. And so it begins... 4e sinks before she is even launched... :devil:
krownhunter07 03-26-08, 03:34 PM	And so it begins... 4e sinks before she is even launched... :devil: ....can't....stop......laughing.... Really, this is funny...
Alediran 03-26-08, 04:18 PM	Yup, it looks like we have a winner. :D Alediran, I know I haven't participated much (almost not at all) over at The Vault, but we should consider bringinging in the 3.75 (Pathfinder) rules into anything we do, or perhaps at least have sidebars detailing how to use the new rules with the new material we generate. I was going to do the three Netbooks I am working on as cross-compatible with 3e/4e, but now I'm thinking 3.5/Pathfinder instead. It will probably be MUCh easier to adapt the stuff across those platforms, then try and blend 3e and 4e together into anything resembling coherent rules. And so it begins... 4e sinks before she is even launched... :devil: I was thinking the exact same thing, the only change I would make to Pathfinder is about the Skill system, I like less skills but skill points that you can choose where to put.
Lord Karsus 03-26-08, 06:59 PM	I was going to do the three Netbooks I am working on as cross-compatible with 3e/4e, but now I'm thinking 3.5/Pathfinder instead. -I don't know what Pathfinder is, but anything you submit for Elves of Faerūn, keep in 3e format. Too much was done with 3e in mind, before anyone knew 4e was coming, and I have no interest in going back and converting everything.
MarkusTay63 03-27-08, 12:53 AM	Wasn't talking about Elves of Faerūn... you da' boss there. ;) Either way, I understand that Pathfinder (3.75) is backwards-compatible, just like 3.5 was with 3e. Now thats the kind of rules edition we need - NOT one that makes all of our old books worthless!
Lord Karsus 03-27-08, 12:59 AM	Wasn't talking about Elves of Faerūn... you da' boss there. ;) -Well, you said "working on", which doesn't exactly imply a leadership role. But, the point remains. Either way, I understand that Pathfinder (3.75) is backwards-compatible, just like 3.5 was with 3e. -Gotcha. That's what I was assuming, but I wasn't 100% sure. Now thats the kind of rules edition we need - NOT one that makes all of our old books worthless! -Eh..., from a business sense, anyway. The 3e to 3.5e transition was "ho hum". A transition from 3.5e to 3.75e is likely to be "ho hum" as well. The transition from 3.5e to 4e is "Holy ****!". From a business sense, they just want attention, product to be sold, and profits. -From our point of view, I completely agree with you.
18DELTA 03-27-08, 01:02 AM	Wasn't talking about Elves of Faerūn... you da' boss there. ;) Either way, I understand that Pathfinder (3.75) is backwards-compatible, just like 3.5 was with 3e. Now thats the kind of rules edition we need - NOT one that makes all of our old books worthless! -Yes Sir, 3P(3rd Edition Paizo)FTW!!!:D 18DELTA;)
MarkusTay63 03-27-08, 05:07 PM	3P... I like that! :dancin:
Lord Karsus 03-27-08, 05:43 PM	-Technically, it'd be 3.5p, wouldn't it?
MarkusTay63 03-27-08, 09:02 PM	or 3.75... Whatever it is, its a whole lot better then '4'. :D
Lord Karsus 03-27-08, 11:05 PM	-Yes...3.75p. -How confusing...
Stigger 03-28-08, 02:17 AM	Haven't seen it yet... gotta admit though, I like a lot of the crunchy stuff I've seen for 4e, even if much of the fluffy stuff is detestable.
MarkusTay63 03-28-08, 02:56 AM	But the Paizo-revised rules set will incorporate a lot of those concepts, and fold them into 3e so we don't need to throw away our books. Isn't it great? BTW, I was over at Monte Cook's site (I get around), and it appears the Malhavoc fans already call Arcana Evolved 3.75, so that leaves us with 3P. Using Monte's rules suggestions from the Book of Experimental Might (http://www.montecook.com/cgi-bin/page.cgi?mpress_BOXM) with Paizo's Pathfinder (http://paizo.com/pathfinder/pathfinderRPG) seems the way to go right now.
krownhunter07 03-28-08, 02:00 PM	Of course it is, we love putting band-aids on broken bones.
MarkusTay63 03-28-08, 02:34 PM	3e isn't broken. And if it is, then it's a lot of the extraneous stuff that was added later that broke it. If all you ever used was the basic three books, you should almost never run into any problems. How can it be broken, when hundreds of thousands of people play it, and enjoy it? :confused: 4e rules aren't designed with the Role-player in mind, they are designed with merging the tactical advantages of the miniatures rules in mind. If you prefer a more complex system, where you have things like skills, then there really isn't any reason to switch to the newer system. Why spend money you don't have to? I don't begrudge them that are trying to find a new niche, and are attempting to attract new players away from the video games, but its also nice to know that other companies will still be catering to those of us who want something more from our games.
Stigger 03-28-08, 04:13 PM	I wouldn't need to throw away my books from 3e, regardless of what I decide to do about editions... I don't really see why that would (or should) be the case.
Iakhovas 03-28-08, 04:14 PM	Mark, everything you just said was also said by 2E holdouts just before 3E was released.
Stigger 03-28-08, 04:25 PM	Yeah, but this is different... its 4e, not 3e. :P *sorry, couldn't help it*
MarkusTay63 03-28-08, 04:29 PM	The difference is that 2e SUCKED!!! :P Thacos? I NEVER learned how to use those gawd-awful things! Every game I DM'd in 2e I had a co-DM, that handled the mechanics, while I just did the 'story-part'. Anyone that heldout when 3e came out was missing a great system! ;) I have my problems with 3e, don't get me wrong, but was it really so terrible that it needed a complete overhaul? And this time out, Brian, we have support from other companies, something we NEVER had with any earlier edition of D&D. Have you seen the new rules yourself? I understand you are privy to very little outside of a few FR changes, but if you have seen any part of the rules, do you think they are that superior to the old ones? I haven't seen them, so I can't judge, but they sound really good. I had plans to switch, just because they seem to address many of the things I disliked about 3e. However, we have a choice now, and thanks to WotC's rather cavalier atttude toward the Realms, I feel no brand-loyalty what-so-ever. I will go with whatever system works best for me, and if thats 4e, then that's all well and good. If not, I will look elsewhere. In the end, I will probably have a mish-mosh of all of them, because that's how I've always done things - Housrules overule ANY edition. :D
Iakhovas 03-28-08, 08:15 PM	At the time THAC0 was all we knew, so we had no problem with it. It wasn't until the introduction of 3E that we questioned how we ever played that *other* way. 1E/2E is ingrained pretty deep though. -10 AC will always be godly to me. Yes, I've seen and played with the new rules and I'm never going back to 3E/3.5/3.75. It *is* that much of an improvement. In every way.
MarkusTay63 03-28-08, 09:59 PM	I hope I agree with you then. :) And I cut my gaming teeth on T&T and C&S, before I played D&D (owned it, but didn't play it until much later), so I thought negative armor class was strange. I guess you just get used to what you first learn on, and for me, bigger numbers ALWAYS meant better. You know, its funny... T&T (Tunnels & Trolls) was probably the simplest RPG rules ever devised. They were practically non-rules. The one thing they did have going for it over other systems at the time were open-ended stats. No bizarro- 18/00 Str in that game. And now, thirty some-odd years later, I see that D&D is finally coming around, and we are getting 'open stats'. Funny, huh? That such a silly little game could have gotten something right?
Lord Karsus 03-28-08, 11:47 PM	4e rules aren't designed with the Role-player in mind, they are designed with merging the tactical advantages of the miniatures rules in mind. -That's one of the major things I don't like about them. I don't play Miniatures. I don't use Miniatures. Leave me alone.
Stigger 03-29-08, 09:41 AM	Don't use them either, and while Saga is written with them in mind, they aren't required for it to make sense and work. Its a very streamlined and fast system I've found... so 4e as a ruleset looks fairly promising to me. Though I've yet to figure out why it would be so difficult to transplant 3.5 to 4e...
Lord Karsus 03-29-08, 12:26 PM	Don't use them either, and while Saga is written with them in mind, they aren't required for it to make sense and work... -I don't doubt that the system makes sense. 3e had miniatures, and tht was that. If you didn't use them, whatever. 4e is stressing the importance of minatures. I still don't want to use them. Please stop trying to make them a necessary element of the game.
Stigger 03-29-08, 02:00 PM	Well, I can see their use being important for those who don't really have a great sense of spatial awareness in their imagination, as well as for those who get into arguements over who is where and doing what... necessary if you want to avoid certain problems, particularly when playing in OP and Living stuff, where you can't always be certain of someone intentions and such. In that sense, they do make quite a bit of sense. But they're still very optional in Saga, so I don't really see a reason why that won't hold true in 4e.
MarkusTay63 03-31-08, 12:20 AM	I have always been just as much about the minis - I own over 7000 metal ones - as I have about the game, and at times, moreso. I think the minitures help to bring the world to life for the players, and I also own a lot of terrain, as well as have a ton of 'mood music' on file that I used to use. Music is great in the background (just try it with the LotR CD), but I don't do that so much aymore. I used to also wear funny hats a lot and do voices... I still do the voices. :) Although I have played in many games that only relied on the spoken word, I prefer a game that immerses you in it. And loads of little 'army guys' are just so much fun to play with. :P
Lord Karsus 03-31-08, 12:39 AM	I have always been just as much about the minis - I own over 7000 metal ones - as I have about the game, and at times, moreso. I think the minitures help to bring the world to life for the players, and I also own a lot of terrain, as well as have a ton of 'mood music' on file that I sued to use. Music is great in the background (just try it with the LotR CD), but I don't do that so much aymore. I used to also wear funny hats a lot and do voices... I still do the voices. :) -I don't to any of that, asides for voices. Every character, and every NPC, has a different voice. Rino, msatran, and John, one day, hopefully, maybe, somehow, G-d willing!, you'll find out "Crazy" Ali's voice. :D -When I play Star Wars, I usually get one of my Star Wars toys to represent my character. Last character I had- Rhon Phantos, an Ithorian Jedi- I had a toy of "Hammerhead", from the Cantina, with a Jedi robe and lightsaber. My current character, Odo-Bin-Garda, a Cerean Jedi-in-hiding, I am using Ki-Adi-Mundi, with his Jedi robes removed, and Han Solo's "Endor jacket" on.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 03-31-08, 01:22 PM	LK, my character knows Alzhedo, so she can speak to your character in his native tongue.:)
Lord Karsus 03-31-08, 07:39 PM	LK, my character knows Alzhedo, so she can speak to your character in his native tongue.:) -Excellent. We can sing traditional Calashite power ballads in the native Alzhedo, then! :)
Alediran 03-31-08, 07:45 PM	And Alediran can help with Seldruin background chants.
Ifthir 03-31-08, 08:00 PM	Mark, everything you just said was also said by 2E holdouts just before 3E was released. I've been playing D&D since before there was an FR in the canon (though surely not in Ed's mind!), and I am puzzled by this remark. I viewed 3E (But not 3.5E) as a welcome update to a lot of things that did not have fleshed out detail. The inaccuracy of your statement revolves around the idea (imho) that there are/were an equivalent amount of 'chicken-littles' over the 3e and 4e changes. I don't have hard data to back up my opinions, but it seems like there are a lot more naysayers to 4E than there were to 3E. Based on what I've seen/heard, I view 4E as a slap in the face to the intelligence of Realms players. Sorry if I am not excited at the prospect of what appears to be WotC/Hasbro whoring out their most attractive cash cow, at the cost of losing a lot of 'hardcore' fans. Shall I assume 5E will be rolling out right around the time Hasbro/WotC need to ratchet up their profit margins once more? :rolleyes:
Iakhovas 03-31-08, 08:19 PM	Your remark puzzles me Ifthir. Mark's comment which I replied to had nothing to do with the Forgotten Realms, but with the transition from the 3rd to 4th edition ruleset. And in that regard I stand by my comment. Just as many people were shocked and dismayed by the 3rd-Edition announcement at the time. Even more so I dare say, as the 2nd-Edition run had lasted years longer and people had spent money on accumulating all those sourcebooks.
Ifthir 03-31-08, 08:44 PM	Your remark puzzles me Ifthir. Mark's comment which I replied to had nothing to do with the Forgotten Realms, but with the transition from the 3rd to 4th edition ruleset. My apologies for misunderstanding your reply, I took it to be a not-so-subtle point that 'the sky was not falling'. My desire was to bring counterpoint that I think the whole 'transition' from 3.5E-4E was little more than a profit-driven decision that had nothing to do with need, let alone fan desire or request. And in that regard I stand by my comment. Just as many people were shocked and dismayed by the 3rd-Edition announcement at the time. Even more so I dare say, as the 2nd-Edition run had lasted years longer and people had spent money on accumulating all those sourcebooks. Are you stating that there were more people who believed 3E was a bad idea, or more people stating 4E was a bad idea? My belief is that the latter is true. Let me offer up some factual information why I personally think 4E is too-soon-bad-idea-insert-flame-here. 1977 - Basic D&D introduced. (12 years go by) 1989 - AD&D 2nd Edition (11 years go by) (1997 - Wizards buys D&D) (Hasbro buys Wizards in September, 1999, a coincidence in the speeding up of editions timeline? You decide.) 2000 - 3E-Notice here a consistent progression of intervals between releases until this point. The progression was 11-12 years. (3 years go by) 2003 - 3.5E - People started to wonder what was going on. (5 years go by) 2008- 4.0E - This is 5 years since the half-update, and only 8 since the last full release. That is a big increase in the updating of new editions if you count 3E with 8 years, and an even bigger one if you look at 3.5 as a full edition. Hasbro has released 3 'updates' to the rules editions in less time than TSR did one. Do you still think the 'update' of the edition is driven by anything other than good old fashioned greed? :confused:
Lord Karsus 03-31-08, 09:00 PM	And Alediran can help with Seldruin background chants. -We don't know him, and that said, he's not welcome in Amn.
MarkusTay63 04-01-08, 12:57 AM	Amnites... nearly as evil as them Elves. :shifty: :P @Ifthir - although I agree mostly with what you say, Brian wasn't defending 4e FR, he was merely stating a fact - a fact I am well aware of, BTW. I still think there is a huge difference between what happened then, and what is happening now, and Brian himself pointed out that people had YEARS LONGER to enjoy their 2e books. Now I have to wonder, if I do buy the 4e books (which I am still planning), how long before THEY become obsolete? Five Years? Two (like my 3.0 ones)? Either way, BJ is a really nice guy, and although he and I are now unfortunately on opposite sides of this ever-expanding fence, he is the newest member of the 'designers club' and had absolutely NO input on the 4e rules, or any of the decisions regarding 4e FR's changes. Cut him some slack - he does his best with what he is dealt, as do we all. Other people earn my ire, but that particular 'thing' goes WAY beyond the 4th edition. ;) Personally, I looked forward to the 3e rules (I hated 2e), and I wasn't on this site back then, so I didn't have to live through the last 'edition crisis'. The real difference there, though is that the rules changed in a major way, not the world. :( Anyhow, who knows? They may still surprise us and hit one out of the park. I still think the 4e rules sound great, but we won't know until we have them in front of us.
Lord Karsus 04-01-08, 02:51 AM	Amnites... nearly as evil as them Elves. :shifty: :P -"Crazy" Ali agrees, being Calashite and all.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 04-01-08, 12:47 PM	-Excellent. We can sing traditional Calashite power ballads in the native Alzhedo, then! :) Being a bard, my PC certainly could help with that.:D
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 04-01-08, 12:51 PM	My apologies for misunderstanding your reply, I took it to be a not-so-subtle point that 'the sky was not falling'. My desire was to bring counterpoint that I think the whole 'transition' from 3.5E-4E was little more than a profit-driven decision that had nothing to do with need, let alone fan desire or request. With all due respect, 4E was bound to come sometime, as this industry is (as far as I can tell) practically designed around constant updates. Apparently, WotC doesn't think having one edition that is never updated is sustainable in terms of profit. So yes, the edition updates are (like every other business decision) motivated by profit.
Alediran 04-01-08, 12:53 PM	-"Crazy" Ali agrees, being Calashite and all. Alediran can look like a Calishite, has a nice spell called Reflective Disguise.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 04-01-08, 01:03 PM	Alediran can look like a Calishite, has a nice spell called Reflective Disguise. Then he's luckier than my bard is, as she is half wood elf.:)
Alediran 04-01-08, 02:29 PM	Then he's luckier than my bard is, as she is half wood elf.:) The wonders of The Art. He can appear as a Mind Flayer to Mind Flayer's eyes with that spell.
Lord Karsus 04-01-08, 03:10 PM	Alediran can look like a Calishite, has a nice spell called Reflective Disguise. -You better be able to keep that up 24/7, 'cause those Amnians don't like their Elves. The wonders of The Art. He can appear as a Mind Flayer to Mind Flayer's eyes with that spell. -Of course, they don't use their eyes. ;)
Alediran 04-01-08, 03:19 PM	-You better be able to keep that up 24/7, 'cause those Amnians don't like their Elves. It lasts twelve hours with each cast, and I can cast it many times. -Of course, they don't use their eyes. ;) As a Beholder then.
Lord Karsus 04-01-08, 03:25 PM	It lasts twelve hours with each cast, and I can cast it many times. -Watch out for those Dead Magic Zones/Dispel Magic Spells. As a Beholder then. -Try again. They look at you, and all your magic goes bye-bye.
Alediran 04-01-08, 03:38 PM	-Watch out for those Dead Magic Zones/Dispel Magic Spells. I can sense DMZ, and Dispel Magics I can counter them, nobody would think it odd. -Try again. They look at you, and all your magic goes bye-bye. Beholder Mage then :waits:
dav 04-01-08, 03:55 PM	Just as many people were shocked and dismayed by the 3rd-Edition announcement at the time. Even more so I dare say, as the 2nd-Edition run had lasted years longer and people had spent money on accumulating all those sourcebooks. You know, the 4e rules set looks good from what Ive seen. But Im not going to get around to playing it. I started playing D&D in the first place because of the Realms. I had read the novels and I loved the setting. The chance to play a game set in the world was awesome to me. I cant stand what I know about the 4e Realms. As soon as theres no more pre Spellplague stuff coming out Im done with the setting. Ill say goodbye to something that Ive loved for years and have spent more money on than any other thing I own. Unfortunately that also means I wont be playing D&D anymore. Like I said, I play D&D because of the Realms. I wont play in a game thats set post Spellplague, and if I get the urge to fantasy role play again itll be in a different setting. All the ones I can think of Id like to play in have their own rule sets. I would have thrown a lot more money at 4e D&D and at the Realms, without a complaint about it, like I always have. But as far as Im concerned the Realms are dead when 4e rolls around. By the way, some of you may have seen me asking about whether the remaining Citadels books were pre or post Spellplague. If any of you were also wondering, Obsidian Ridge is in 1366 DR, so it at least is pre. Im hoping the last two are as well.
Lord Karsus 04-01-08, 04:37 PM	Beholder Mage then :waits: -Hmm...They could cast Dispel Magic. ;)
Alediran 04-01-08, 04:54 PM	-Hmm...They could cast Dispel Magic. ;) I can counter it, I always have a Duelward spell active.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 04-01-08, 07:16 PM	By the way, some of you may have seen me asking about whether the remaining Citadels books were pre or post Spellplague. If any of you were also wondering, Obsidian Ridge is in 1366 DR, so it at least is pre. Im hoping the last two are as well. I'm glad to hear that bit about Obsidian Ridge.:) Nowadays I'm attracted to novels set in the past.
Nerhesi 04-02-08, 01:38 PM	I'm looking forward to seeing "mis truths" in novels and cannon material from an NPCs perspective. Keeps it interesting as opposed to buy-book-read-answer. It's like the way Old White Wolf did it with several factions/opposed groups. Everyone thought they knew how X worked. They all had their own, wildly varying definitions. Sam W.
Lord Karsus 04-02-08, 01:42 PM	I'm looking forward to seeing "mis truths" in novels and cannon material from an NPCs perspective. -Unless specifically stated, sourcebooks (for 3e) are written from the omniscient 3rd-person perspective. That said, there are no "mistruths" in 3e material, unless a passage is written specifically as if it was written by a person from Faerūn. Truth be told, asides for AGHotR, this isn't very common. -In my opinion, 4e is probably going to follow this trend of an omniscient narrator. I like it, as it eliminates the "Well, so and so isn't 100% reliable" from arguments, but at the same time, there is no need to state everything as is, with no air of mystery/mystique.
Nerhesi 04-02-08, 04:20 PM	Nobody likes you Lord Karsus. That's why you got all bloated then boom-snap-crackle-pop Humpty Dumpty Fall reenactment. So There. Sam W.
Lord Karsus 04-02-08, 04:33 PM	Nobody likes you Lord Karsus. -Indeed. That's why you got all bloated then boom-snap-crackle-pop Humpty Dumpty Fall reenactment. -That part was simply a biproduct of temporarily bonding with the deity of magic, that's all. So There. -That'll show 'em.
MarkusTay63 04-02-08, 04:40 PM	That's why you got all bloated then boom-snap-crackle-pop Humpty Dumpty Fall reenactment.Ummm... Okaaaaay... :rolleyes: -I like it, as it eliminates the "Well, so and so isn't 100% reliable" from arguments, but at the same time, there is no need to state everything as is, with no air of mystery/mystique.Well, thats a little selfish, since thats the #1 thing old-time fans of the game really loved about it. You can add your own stuff in without breaking canon - now, you can't. Great for a novel-world; not so much for a game one. By the way, some of you may have seen me asking about whether the remaining Citadels books were pre or post Spellplague. If any of you were also wondering, Obsidian Ridge is in 1366 DR, so it at least is pre. Im hoping the last two are as well.I second that this is indeed good news, and I think I've just decided to read it, despite the obvious Krull rip-off. 1366, eh? Now I think we know why this area (Erlkazar) hasn't been mentioned at all in 3e lore. ;)
Lord Karsus 04-02-08, 04:51 PM	Well, thats a little selfish, since thats the #1 thing old-time fans of the game really loved about it. You can add your own stuff in without breaking canon - now, you can't. Great for a novel-world; not so much for a game one. -Not really. -Every game, no matter how hard the DM slavishly attempts to stay true to canon, is going to break it. The second a player asks what color a rose is in Calimshan, the DM is going to have to look that up. Since that does not exist in any sourcebooks, he/she is going to have to ask Ed, at Candlekeep. Three weeks later, his/her query is answered! Finally, the campaign may go on. Uh oh...The very same player asked if the rose had thorns or not, because he/she wanted to pick it... -There is no such thing as a game that's 100% true to canon. -That said, 1e, 2e, 3e, it's all the same, in terms of information. 1e and 2e simply were narrated by individuals. 3e canon has substantiated most of what was said in these 2e books, meaning that everything they were saying was entirely correct. If a person is going to build on things, they are going to, regardless of the edition, or narration style.
Stigger 04-03-08, 07:41 AM	Indeed... I loved that element of the lore not being 100% reliable, ala Volo, my all time favorite sourcebooks for the Realms.
Nerhesi 04-03-08, 11:03 AM	Indeed... I loved that element of the lore not being 100% reliable, ala Volo, my all time favorite sourcebooks for the Realms. I still have Volo's guide to Realm's Inns or something. Man... good memories. Back during those days.. when the only way you could get anyone high level to fail a save was to cast Devestate (or was it Devestation? One is a druid spell that called down meteors.. oh well) before beginning to actually cast spells for the next few minutes. Sam W. PS Lord Karsus.. ok ok, I'm sure someone out there likes. Maybe. Despite the Humpty-Dumpty moment ;p
Lord Karsus 04-03-08, 12:01 PM	Indeed... I loved that element of the lore not being 100% reliable, ala Volo, my all time favorite sourcebooks for the Realms. -I both liked and disliked this sort of storytelling. On one hand, it made the books seem more personable. Yet, at the same time, because of this, during any argument, one could simply claim that no 2e sourcebook is accurate, as a catch-all, and get off the hook during debate. I much prefer 3e's omniscient point-of-view, but I'd rather it not shed light on everything. PS Lord Karsus.. ok ok, I'm sure someone out there likes. Maybe. Despite the Humpty-Dumpty moment ;p -Well, if you say so...
Stigger 04-03-08, 12:06 PM	One of the major reasons I liked the inaccuracy of 2e is that it gave us far more room to interpret lore for ourselves, and helped to avoid a lot of this antipathy towards iconic characters since one could just ignore them far more easily and dismiss them as folkloric anecdotes. True its not as conducive to debating lore and its meaning, but it allowed a DM to make the Realms their own far more than 3e's omniscient POV did.
Lord Karsus 04-03-08, 12:08 PM	True its not as conducive to debating lore and its meaning, but it allowed a DM to make the Realms their own far more than 3e's omniscient POV did. -3e allows one to do the same. No one has to slavishly follow true to what the books say. That's what I just said to MT.
Stigger 04-03-08, 12:10 PM	Of course, but... just knew that was coming... given the perception problems that the 3e style has seemingly generated, I don't know if everyone quite understood that as well as they should... if you take my meaning there.
Lord Karsus 04-03-08, 12:14 PM	Of course, but... just knew that was coming... given the perception problems that the 3e style has seemingly generated, I don't know if everyone quite understood that as well as they should... if you take my meaning there. -Understood. That's not an inherent fault of the setting, or how it was/is presented, though.
Stigger 04-03-08, 12:23 PM	No, but in the interest of maintaining some civility and politeness, I'll refrain from addressing where that inherent fault actually lies... :D
Alediran 04-03-08, 12:25 PM	At least for me 3rd edition style allowed me to improvise big time. With WoD I have to make a lot of planning before DMing or my campaigns fall short of my objectives, and I don't like planning that much, I haven't DMed yet with the nWoD rules, but at least with D&D I could put a surprise combat while I think what to do next, with oWoD just a one-on-one combat lasts too much time for it to be entertaining, and you can't use that tactic too much because (unless you are a Vampire with 5 "sacks of blood", or you choose to take paradox as a Mage to heal damage in great numbers) combat damage takes too much time to heal and every combat is deadly.
Lord Karsus 04-03-08, 12:31 PM	No, but in the interest of maintaining some civility and politeness, I'll refrain from addressing where that inherent fault actually lies... :D -I think, secretly, everyone knows.
Nerhesi 04-03-08, 02:57 PM	-I both liked and disliked this sort of storytelling. On one hand, it made the books seem more personable. Yet, at the same time, because of this, during any argument, one could simply claim that no 2e sourcebook is accurate, as a catch-all, and get off the hook during debate. I much prefer 3e's omniscient point-of-view, but I'd rather it not shed light on everything. Off the hook in a debate? This is not some point of legislature, Case Law or some other political argument now - this is fiction. Fantasy Fiction. Regardless of the storytelling methodology, some things are very cannon (X triumphed Y, due to their inability to come to peace over land Z) versus the more personable details.. (How X triumphed over Y - some say they got aid from Source Z, or discovered ancient source P.... yet even others state that Y was betrayed by some internal elements)... It really does, in my opinion, flesh it out more. I am not sure if you're familiar with the old WhiteWolf World of Darkness Setting - but it allowed for countless debates over minute details regarding factions, their goals, past events that included or affected them, while still maintaining a rather large set of cannon events/materials/stories. -Well, if you say so... Glad we're in agreement! Sam W.
Lord Karsus 04-03-08, 03:07 PM	Off the hook in a debate? This is not some point of legislature, Case Law or some other political argument now - this is fiction. Fantasy Fiction. Regardless of the storytelling methodology, some things are very cannon (X triumphed Y, due to their inability to come to peace over land Z) versus the more personable details.. (How X triumphed over Y - some say they got aid from Source Z, or discovered ancient source P.... yet even others state that Y was betrayed by some internal elements)... -2e material was told from the viewpoint of someone...Volo, let's use, as an example, since he is notorious. In his book, Volo's Guide to All Things Smelly, Volo could could have said that Cormyrian Stink Cabbage is the single most smelly thing in all of Faerūn. This causes a problem, however, that one can easily exploit in a debate, as it is done time and time again. Because the book is written from Volo's perspective, the Cormyrian Stink Cabbage is not necessarily the single most stinkiest thing on all of Faerūn, but instead, is the stinkiest thing in Volo's opinion. There might exist something that Volo is unaware of, that is much smellier than the Cormyran Stink Cabbage. Or, perhaps Volo enjoys the punget odor of the Amnian Fart Weed, and as a result, says is smells sweet, whereas others think is smells like a fart. And so on. -3e material simply says, "The Amnian Fart Weed is the single most smelly thing on the continent of Faerūn. The Cormyrian Stink Cabbage, while smelly, comes in a distant second." In that rendition, the absolute truth is established, quite easily, and without any loopholes.
Daenaan 04-03-08, 03:10 PM	No, but in the interest of maintaining some civility and politeness, I'll refrain from addressing where that inherent fault actually lies... :D If it's intentional by design, then it's neither a fault of perception nor a flaw in presentation. Whether or not it was the best choice, or even a good idea, that's a different question.
Faraer 04-03-08, 06:44 PM	-3e allows one to do the same. No one has to slavishly follow true to what the books say. That's what I just said to MT.But the spirit of how Realmslore is meant, not just at first but through the best 3E work, has never been better said than the DM's Sourcebook's epigram -- 'On my word as a sage nothing within these pages is false, but not all of it may prove to be true.' The unreliable narration encouraged players not to take things for granted in play, and was a constant reminder that it was expected for campaigns to differ from the published continuity. If this had been made clearer, the old strategies not abandoned without replacement, we'd have less talk now of people using Realmslore too rigidly or seeing it as a burden, and the consequent measures taken partly to correct that.
Stigger 04-03-08, 07:11 PM	Very different question... ;) Otherwise, what Faraer said much more succinctly than I managed to.
Lord Karsus 04-03-08, 11:23 PM	The unreliable narration encouraged players not to take things for granted in play, and was a constant reminder that it was expected for campaigns to differ from the published continuity. -As, for the third time now, as I have said, 3e doesn't do anything to discourage that. It simply presents information as is. Nobody has to listen, if they don't want. Do you really think that the average person who was using the products said to themselves, "Well, Volo isn't a fully reliable narrator, as he might be lying at any moment. Because of that, I think I'll take the liberty of changing X, Y and Z."? No.
Faraer 04-03-08, 11:34 PM	I don't know about the average, but some will -- this isn't the only theoretically obvious thing that it's worth reminding people about. It encourages and helps DMs create a particular atmosphere and type of uncertainty in play which is similar to that experienced by characters in Faerūn. That isn't obvious (and seems most lately to have escaped Bruce Cordell, in suggesting Dalesfolk would hear accurate, repeated and hence popularly known news from Thesk).
Lord Karsus 04-03-08, 11:44 PM	-And, there is nothing in the 3e format that discourages players from taking the setting, and changing whatever details they want in it. Stating, in blunt terms, what happened in X situation doesn't somehow take this ability away from DMs any more than stating it in lose terms did. Creating a certain type of playing atmosphere is, again, up to the DM, and is his "duty" to establish.
MarkusTay63 04-04-08, 03:27 AM	But if we all feel it does, and you feel it doesn't, then we are wrong? We are back to perceptions here, and I feel much better about changing Cormyrian cabbage to the Stinkiest if Volos says it, then I would if it states quite clearly and emphatically that the Amn butt bush is the smellier. because if I alter it in the first case, and a player says "what about..." I just interupt and say "Sorry, Volo doesn't really have a good sense of smell" - End of argument. But if a book strictly disagrees with me, then I will have a twenty minute argument with some idiot player insisting that I'm breaking the rules. I know the DM is always right - but try telling that to some players. Open-ended lore eliminates the need for a lot of the arguments, and lets us get back to what is important - sniffing cabbages, weeds, and bushes. :P
Daenaan 04-04-08, 03:43 AM	...But if a book strictly disagrees with me, then I will have a twenty minute argument with some idiot player insisting that I'm breaking the rules. I know the DM is always right - but try telling that to some players. Open-ended lore eliminates the need for a lot of the argumaents, and lets us get back to what is important - sniffing cabbages, weeds, and bushes. :P No joke there. When some players hear that something's canon, they become frothy-mouthed and argumentative, convinced that they're RIGHT by Jove!
Lord Karsus 04-04-08, 04:25 AM	because if I alter it in the first case, and a player says "what about..." I just interupt and say "Sorry, Volo doesn't really have a good sense of smell" - End of argument. -That that's what happens when Lost Empires of Faerūn says that the Chronomancer was killed, fighting Orcs, as well. As the player says, "But-", you inject, "This is my incarnation of the Forgotten Realms- Abeir-Toril 617- and he didn't die then". But if a book strictly disagrees with me, then I will have a twenty minute argument with some idiot player insisting that I'm breaking the rules. I know the DM is always right - but try telling that to some players. Open-ended lore eliminates the need for a lot of the argumaents, and lets us get back to what is important - sniffing cabbages, weeds, and bushes. :P -Not really. The play can still say, "But, Volo says...". You're right back to square one.
Stigger 04-04-08, 06:39 AM	Uncertainty still makes it easier on the DM as far as I'm concerned... perhaps not as concretely informative for the setting, but easier on the DM who wants to throw curveballs at his players.
MarkusTay63 04-09-08, 05:01 PM	Right - Volo's opinions are just that - OPINIONS! I don't have to listen to him, and I won't even argue with a player over it, because I didn't change the lore at all. If I disagree with a canon FACT, then I did change lore, and someone is bound to argue. If I asked people on Toril "Who is the rottenist b@stard you know?", I would probably get a different answer from EVERY one of them. If it states in a sourcebook that Ildarmaal Gorgauthslag of Skuld is the vilest human on the planet, then guess what? I'm stuck with that, and have to work around it.
Lord Karsus 04-09-08, 06:12 PM	Right - Volo's opinions are just that - OPINIONS! I don't have to listen to him, and I won't even argue with a player over it, because I didn't change the lore at all. If I disagree with a canon FACT, then I did change lore, and someone is bound to argue. -Right, that's entirely true. Like I said before, though there will be players who still argue that "Volo's Guide said...", which is why 1st person, 3rd person, makes no real difference when playing the game, but a big difference when debating.
RazAl_Dazzle 04-10-08, 06:53 AM	-That that's what happens when Lost Empires of Faerūn says that the Chronomancer was killed, fighting Orcs, as well. As the player says, "But-", you inject, "This is my incarnation of the Forgotten Realms- Abeir-Toril 617- and he didn't die then". -Not really. The play can still say, "But, Volo says...". You're right back to square one. That is when you drop an Ancient Red Dragon in his lap, and say "What does Volo say about that?":D
Lord Karsus 04-10-08, 10:47 AM	That is when you drop an Ancient Red Dragon in his lap, and say "What does Volo say about that?":D :rofl: