| Post/Author/DateTime | Post |
|---|---|
| Andyr09-08-07, 09:51 AM | (First off, if anyone has extra info from e.g. Shadowstorm or Storm of the Dead could they please make sure they post it using the board's spoiler code--I won't have the books until they arrive with my Grand History of the Realms at the end of this month.) A sample chapter of RAS's The Orc King has been posted on the WotC site; it contains some hints of post-Spellplague Faerun. http://ww2.wizards.com/Books/Wizards/Products/default.aspx?doc=959867200 From reading it, this is what I gather about the future of Faerun. Note the sample chapter does not begin with a date, though other sources have said it is set ~100 years in the 3.5E future. - Many old empires have fallen (e.g. Luskan - page 11). Others are named which are perhaps destroyed but perhaps just not prospering (Thay, Mulhorand, Sembia - page 12). - New ones have arisen (Netheril, the aboleths, and a "discordant and disastrous joining of two worlds") - page 10. I wonder about the last one of this, but it seems to coincide with Ed Greenwood's comments in the final issue of Dragon (along the lines of "most scholars drop the name Abeir from Abeir-Toril, for reasons which will soon become apparant"). The question is, which two worlds? - The Kingdom of Many-Arrows has flourished and helped bring stability to the Silver Marches region under Obould and his heirs; orcs (and half-orcs) are more accepted than in 1375 DR. The Cult of Gruumsh is de-emphasised in this Kingdom (e.g. page 5 onwards). I presume the dwarves are still around there, too. - Something regarding this happens at a place or to a person called "Shallows"; perhaps that's what this novel is about, I don't know (page 3). - Eilistraee and her followers "rose", but presumably failed to achieve what they hoped (page 11). Perhaps Lolth has exterminated the rest of her pantheon? We will have to see what the rest of the Lady Penitent books say. - Other Good deities may have been killed ("Where are the benevolent gods?" - page 11). - Oh, and I suppose it confirms that Drizzt at least survives... Sounds fairly bleak, and quite different from the Realms we have at the moment! I for one would like to know more. If anyone has any more confirmed 4E lore I would be glad to hear it, though please avoid spoilers for other new novels for the time being! Hope this info is of use to some people... |
| KnightoftheWhiteRose09-08-07, 10:27 AM | I'm blown away at the change brought by the timeleap. I'v lost many of the Heroe's I loved to read about. Artemis is probably dead unless he found a way to live more than 130 years. the biggest let down of the time leap is the death of Wulfgar. i hope we get some novels to fill in the gap. i hope he died well. many things have changed in the realms since last i visited and it isnt even the same world anymore. i look forward to future insight into the New Realms.:detect: |
| zakman09-08-07, 11:24 AM | Artemis is probably dead unless he found a way to live more than 130 years. If you still don't know (it occured in 'That Curious Sword'): He has found a way indeed. By absorbing the essence of the shadovar with his dagger. |
| JetLeechan09-08-07, 11:33 AM | I hope Entreri's still around somewhere, since he absorbed this shadow essence plus he absorbs peoples life essence with his dagger. As for the "joining of 2 worlds", this sounds bad for me, I really hope they won't come up with some crazy "parallel-world things". But at least it seems like humans arent longer as dominant as they are currently. Well, hopefully the changes arent too harsh:) , but we are still 110 years away, first we have to see what happens until 1385. |
| KnightoftheWhiteRose09-08-07, 11:35 AM | nope i sure didnt know, so hes finally dead eh? well FR certainly is changing. if i may ask how he died in semi detail? PM me if anyone would like to share his fate with me. i dont mind spoilers because i am unable to get the FR novels. thanks.:evillaugh |
| MarkusTay6309-08-07, 11:37 AM | See?! SEE?! I TOLD YOU!!! "It's the end of the world as we know it" It sounds worse then I feared... an ABOLETH kingdom?! WTF? Stupidest looking monster... EVA :banghead: EDIT: It does mention it is a century since the formation of the kingdom, so yeah, it is a 100+ years later. |
| MerrikCale09-08-07, 11:42 AM | the upcoming timejump is ten years but the novel is written 100 years from now. Not all of this will be true with the new FRCS |
| MarkusTay6309-08-07, 12:24 PM | I just caught something my second time through - they refer to some major event as "The Great War". It's sounding more and more like Eberron every day. :rolleyes: |
| Andyr09-08-07, 01:07 PM | It sounds worse then I feared... an ABOLETH kingdom?! WTF? Stupidest looking monster... EVA :banghead: The aboleth are awesome. :) Perhaps they rise up from under Waterdeep, or expand their Underdark holdings, or something. |
| MarkusTay6309-08-07, 01:21 PM | What the DO is cool, how they LOOK is silly. They look like giant Catfish with too many eyes. Also, I really don't see a race dependent on being in water being able to stay in charge for very long. |
| Andyr09-08-07, 01:29 PM | They could use Dominated servants. |
| MarkHall09-08-07, 01:51 PM | Apropos, I think Where have all the good men gone and where are all the gods? Where's the great white Hercules to fight the rising odds? Isn't there a white knight upon a fiery steed? Late at night I toss and I turn and I dream of what i need I need a hero I'm holding out for a hero till the end of the night he's gotta be strong and he's gotta be fast and gotta be fresh from the fight I need a hero I'm holding out for a hero till the morning light He's gotta be sure and he's gotta be soon And he's gotta be larger than life Larger than life Somewhere after midnight In my wildest fantasies Somewhere just beyond my reach There's someone reaching back for me Racing on the thunder and rising with the heat It's gonna take a Superman to sweep me off my feet I need a hero I'm holding out for a hero till the end of the night he's gotta be strong and he's gotta be fast and gotta be fresh from the fight I need a hero I'm holding out for a hero till the morning light He's gotta be sure and he's gotta be soon And he's gotta be larger than life Larger than life I the mountains neath the heavens above Out where the lightning strikes the sea I can swear that there's someone somewhere watching me Through the wind and the chill and the rain and the storm and the flood I can feel his approach like a fire in my blood I need a hero I'm holding out for a hero till the end of the night he's gotta be strong and he's gotta be fast and gotta be fresh from the fight I need a hero I'm holding out for a hero till the morning light He's gotta be sure and he's gotta be soon And he's gotta be larger than life Larger than life |
| captaincarot09-08-07, 01:54 PM | What the DO is cool, how they LOOK is silly. They look like giant Catfish with too many eyes. Also, I really don't see a race dependent on being in water being able to stay in charge for very long. they're going to over run water deep in tanks |
| MarkusTay6309-08-07, 02:41 PM | You know, if they take over ANY city, Waterdeep sounds VERY appropriate. :smirk: Can you imagine a city THAT size as one great big dungeon filled with 'muck monsters'? |
| Fabius Maximus09-08-07, 06:24 PM | You know, if they take over ANY city, Waterdeep sounds VERY appropriate. :smirk: Can you imagine a city THAT size as one great big dungeon filled with 'muck monsters'? I can already imagine it: The aboleths somehow destroy Waterdeep's mythal, Undermountain caves in and takes the whole plateau with it... |
| MerrikCale09-08-07, 09:28 PM | I can already imagine it: The aboleths somehow destroy Waterdeep's mythal, Undermountain caves in and takes the whole plateau with it... cool |
| Dark Wizard09-08-07, 10:02 PM | They need to replace Myth Drannor as a legendary city ruin and adventuring site. Kind of makes sense. I don't think we need to worry too much. Not like Luskan hasn't been destroyed/overrun before. Maybe the aboleths did it, didn't a group of them inhabit the waters nearby? Thay, Mulhorand, and Sembia getting wrecked? that's not terrible, they have always been somewhat fringe. Not like they were the most stable places either. Maybe with this merging of two worlds, we can really remix the other continents. Not too far from what I wanted to do. :cloud9: |
| MarkusTay6309-08-07, 10:06 PM | I hear that, DW. :D Maybe they should hire us if they want the world to be just 'perfect'. :dancin: |
| The Ubbergeek09-08-07, 11:21 PM | Thay, Mulhorand, and Sembia getting wrecked? that's not terrible, they have always been somewhat fringe. Not like they were the most stable places either. Those countries are not really the most stable ones.. |
| Dark Wizard09-08-07, 11:28 PM | I hear that, DW. :D Maybe they should hire us if they want the world to be just 'perfect'. :dancin: Heh, perhaps. Though this might just assassinate my chances of ever getting a DI article accepted, I don't think my perspective on the Realms (especially on the other continents) is closely aligned enough with Wizard's supposed mainstream for them to look at my stuff. I've already started getting use to shifting the Realms to the backburner. I've spent the last week on homebrew settings. Those countries are not really the most stable ones.. That's just what I said. |
| MarkusTay6309-08-07, 11:44 PM | Those countries are not really the most stable ones..http://www.memphisracingscene.com/vb/images/smilies/beat-dead-horse.gif Sorry, but I've been waiting to use that. ;) |
| Steelwind09-09-07, 02:02 AM | Also did anyone notice that the elf Drizzt was doing battle with was an intellectual type wizard elf, as opposed to a feral type treehugger, and that he was referred to as an elf, not an eladrin or othersuch nonsense. Also I am very interested in the details concerning the mearging of two worlds and the rise of netheril. |
| Forest_Wanderer_Aerandir09-09-07, 02:11 AM | I've already started getting use to shifting the Realms to the backburner. I've spent the last week on homebrew settings. At some point in time we should just get a large group of people together, write up our own world and setting to use as a whole, write the source material we need, and run it as a larger world like we do Faerun. It'd be fun enough, and eliminates these pesky changes we don't like. This being said, I'll still be playing FR. :P |
| Alurvelve09-09-07, 03:09 AM | "Shallows" is a referance to something that happened in the last trilogy. |
| soulnova09-09-07, 03:44 AM | If Artemis Enteri is dead, I will need to shoot something. Preferably, a chihuahua. One with big eyes. |
| captaincarot09-09-07, 03:52 AM | I don't think we need to worry too much. Not like Luskan hasn't been destroyed/overrun before. Maybe the aboleths did it, didn't a group of them inhabit the waters nearby? : not sure but they are in waterdeeps sewrs already. as for the mythal under waterdeep collapsing, i've already been coming up with mad cap theories about having to put halaster back together to stop this happening. |
| Lirdolin09-09-07, 06:33 AM | I'll quote myself from another thread: After i read the chapter, i get the impression, that this is a future that 'might become if' some of the current Realm-Plots go horribly wrong (in other words: the heroes fail). For example: Netheril might rise again if the heros fail at the end of 'Anauroch', Eilistraee and the hope of the Good drow might rise and fall, if the heros fail in 'Acendancy of the Last'. 'What if' this Drizzt's 'present' depended on a decision he had to make in the past (current Realms present) and failed (talking to and later aiding a tyrant?). Maybe there will be a possibility (within the novels )to change this future from happening? Although R.A.Salvatore is a 'Realms-heavy-weight' as plots go, I doubt he can actually decide what happens the next 100 years and as some parts of this 'future' seem to touch near events, it's quite possible that novels/ adventures will touch them and I seriously doubt, that the heros will always fail "Oh, it's the merging of the two worlds event...the heros fail, read it in 'The Orc King'" "Spellplague? Ah forget it, we'll fail anyway...Remember? 'Orc King'..." "Oh s..t! Lloth wins in 'Acendancy of the Last' or some time later. Thanks for the spoiler 'Orc King'..." "We don't need to play Anauroch anymore...the bad guys win, Netheril will rise again... 'Orc King' predicted it already." Best wishes Lirdolin |
| captaincarot09-09-07, 06:52 AM | i thought someting similar. maybe wizzards could just possibly be doing a terminator type storyline, he's looking back on a past from future that will never exist because he did things differently. cue time travel. one other thing which is a vague possibility, though i really do doubt that wizzards will be cunning enough to do it is that they are doing a dallas storyline and that it will all turn out to be a horrible dream. thus they put out something absolutely hideous, then when they churn out something not quite as bad in reality in the future we all give cries of relief. at the fact that the way they have massacred our beloved setting is not as bad as we thought it would be, rather than decrying the fact that we have been stuck with a dodo, which is not only dead but has the spit up it's arse and is actually roasting over an open fire. |
| Diffan09-09-07, 11:28 AM | Also I am very interested in the details concerning the mearging of two worlds and the rise of netheril. Maybe the merging of two worlds is something like Planeshift that happened in the Magic the Gathering books, where one world over-laps the other and they become one? "Shallows" is a referance to something that happened in the last trilogy. It's the battle where Drizzt thought Breunor died and put him on the road to being separated from the company throughout the rest of the Trilogy. |
| Fabius Maximus09-09-07, 12:00 PM | Maybe "Dark Netheril" rises despite what happens in Anauroch? We don't know the end of the adventure yet. |
| MarkusTay6309-09-07, 12:58 PM | Waterdeep is going down, mark my words. There were just too many things left ambiguous in the Undermountain product. That being said, it's kind of mean of WotC to release those two products if it's all going to change, but then again, they are in business to make money. I did catch that part where the Elf was talking to Drizzt and said "like us" - obviously attitudes toward the Drow will change over the next decade or so. On the other hand, I see a great deal that points to the 'good' Drow dissapearing and Drizzt being left the aberration he was always meant to be. Also, it was already stated that the Drow 'may' become a seperate race in 4e (since they are dropping 'sub-races' altogether it does make sense). If the Drow are no longer Elves, and Drizzt is considered an Elf in that spoiler, then I'm thoroughly confused at this point as to the fate of the Dark Elven people. (I DO have HIGH hopes that the Miyeritar Drow will return, and become a nation of peaceful Dark Elves on the surface). When I argue about Drow with folks, I always differentiate between Dark Elves and Drow, because in my mind they are two different things. Perhaps Wizards has got similar notions and are planning a split? At some point in time we should just get a large group of people together, write up our own world and setting to use as a whole, write the source material we need, and run it as a larger world like we do Faerun. It'd be fun enough, and eliminates these pesky changes we don't like. This being said, I'll still be playing FR. :PI have already broached this idea over at CK... with no response as of yet. On the bright side, I didn't get any naysayers either. It appears even the Grognards are thinking long and hard about their alleigences right now. I was thinking about a fan-created 'alternate reality' - at some point there has to be a major attempt by the 'forces of good' to stop all of the 'badness'. If we take that moment in time, and have the good guys win, then we have our point of divergence. Then we can continue to play in the Realms we KNOW with 3e rules, and the 'new' setting will go on and become something entirely different for 4e. Two seperate Realms - 3e Faerûn, and 4e Abeir-Toril. It would be great if WotC gave us that choice, and continued to produce material for the current Realms, but I just don't see that happening. If Artemis Enteri is dead, I will need to shoot something. Preferably, a chihuahua. One with big eyes.They already made him practically immortal in some short story - that's why he has grey skin now. thus they put out something absolutely hideous, then when they churn out something not quite as bad in reality in the future we all give cries of relief.I was thinking this VERY thing. Doctors will ALWAYS give the worse-case scenario to a patient so that they have little hope. Basically, he is covering his @ss - if he's right he is a genius, and if he is wrong and the patient pulls through everyone is glad the doctor was wrong. This way, the doctor is covered either way. Now apply thast to the Realms - they are letting us worry and believe HORRIBLE things will happen, so that when they make much smaller changes to the setting we breath a sigh of relief and embrace 4e rules and sourcebooks. That would be the SMART thing to do; however, I don't think there's a chance in hell of that happening. :( |
| The Ubbergeek09-09-07, 01:15 PM | Two seperate Realms - 3e faerûn, and 4e Abeir-Toril. It would be great if WotC gave us that choice, and continued to produce material for the current Realms, but I just don't see that happening. It's the SAME world. Not two settings; just MAYBE two different era (and Abeir-Toril is just the complete name of the planet where Faerun is on). Gee, did Shadowrun die with the Crash 2,0, the Comet troubles and all? No! It is the same exact setting, just with change in big players and so on. I think that with the 4th edition still in making for months, we are overracting and panicking a bit. Too much speculations on hersays and very not much flesh. Wait and see. |
| soulnova09-09-07, 01:52 PM | They already made him practically immortal in some short story - that's why he has grey skin now. Yes, I know. I read that... but that doesnt make him immortal. He can live a lot, if someone doesnt kill him first. :P |
| MarkusTay6309-09-07, 02:26 PM | It's the SAME world. Not two settings; just MAYBE two different era (and Abeir-Toril is just the complete name of the planet where Faerun is on).Up until two days ago, I would have agreed with you - His perspective and memories of that time a hundred years gone, before the rise of the Empire of Netheril, the coming of the aboleths, and the discordant and disastrous joining of two worlds, brought to Drizzt thoughts of another predicament so much like the one playing out before him.The disasterous joining of two worlds? Sorry, but THAT coupled with Ed's comments in the last Dragon magazine leave me wondering... |
| Diffan09-09-07, 06:00 PM | The disasterous joining of two worlds? Sorry, but THAT coupled with Ed's comments in the last Dragon magazine leave me wondering... Yea, it's like planeshift. Eberron and FR combined but there can be only one! Hence why FR is the first campaign setting with the 4E conversion. :D |
| Forest_Wanderer_Aerandir09-09-07, 07:54 PM | I have to say, I think alternate Faerun is a good idea. Then we can be shapers and gods and things! Or not. But at least I can be a gnome. |
| The Ubbergeek09-09-07, 08:35 PM | Up until two days ago, I would have agreed with you - The disasterous joining of two worlds? Sorry, but THAT coupled with Ed's comments in the last Dragon magazine leave me wondering... Have you considered it's, like Planescape can show it, an ALTERNATE material world of teh SAME setting? Like, the world from where the orcs came? Then, it is still Forgetten RealmS, if it does happen.... Changes the planes around, mixing and uniting, Planescape is still Planescape. Same thing. Same thing as when Khyber and Dal Quor striked Eberron, or the Sueloise 'planar WMD' - when the Suel Empire MERGED the Baklunish empire with THE GREY WASTE for a time. I bet ten it's NOT a crossover. Of course. Or perhaps 'world' means only something alegoric, like the absorption of another culture by a conqueror... |
| BadCatMan09-09-07, 09:02 PM | I'm getting a very post-apocalyptic, world-gone-mad vibe from that sample. Maybe I'm just in that denial stage, and assuming it's an alternate future created by Shar, and adventurers now have to fight against this future. Bah. I'm pretty sure my own adventurers will be fighting against this. Or perhaps Abeir is the name of Ed's own Realms, and this is all in fact much closer to the original, his Realms and our Realms forcefully recombined. Also bah. I take back any support I had for a timeline advancement. I was thinking that advancing things and moving on from current convoluted plot-lines would help smooth over the setting's sharp-edges and heal its wounds of recent RSEs. But this isn't advancement, it's going backwards. It's not fixing anything, it's pointless destruction. |
| soulnova09-09-07, 09:25 PM | I take back any support I had for a timeline advancement. I was thinking that advancing things and moving on from current convoluted plot-lines would help smooth over the setting's sharp-edges and heal its wounds of recent RSEs. But this isn't advancement, it's going backwards. It's not fixing anything, it's pointless destruction. Ah... I can tell you I agree with you 100%. |
| Diffan09-09-07, 09:56 PM | I'm getting a very post-apocalyptic, world-gone-mad vibe from that sample. Maybe I'm just in that denial stage, and assuming it's an alternate future created by Shar, and adventurers now have to fight against this future. Bah. I'm pretty sure my own adventurers will be fighting against this. From what I've read from other sources/reviews of the Orc King, I'm getting the impression that it's only been like a few years since the last novel. Cattie-Brie is still alive but I'm not sure who died in Luskan. The review said this... The Orc King: Transitions, Book One R.A. Salvatore. Wizards of the Coast, $27.95 (352p) ISBN 978-0-7869-4340-1 Celebrating his 20th year as one of Salvatore's most popular Forgotten Realms characters, dark elf Drizzt Do'Urden whirls into action in this first installment of a new trilogy. As the Year of Wild Magic arrives in the Silver Marches, bloody conflicts rage between Mithral Hall dwarves, Kingdom of Many Arrows orcs, Moonwood elves and Silverymoon wizards. Recently widowed barbarian Wulfgar must wade through the political morass to undertake a life-changing journey, aided by Drizzt's brave wife, Catti-brie. Meanwhile, archeologists are unearthing an ancient city where orcs and dwarves once lived side by side in peace. Drizzt and dwarven king Bruenor Battlehammer wonder if such peace can be achieved again, but half-orc/half-ogre Grguch, King Obould VI of the orcs and angry dark elf Tos'un Armgo won't go down without a fight. Salvatore mixes neatly choreographed battles with philosophical musings from self-styled “renegade soul” Drizzt, lending a little depth to an otherwise straightforward hack-and-slash adventure. Author tour. (Oct.) ...take from it what you will. |
| MarkusTay6309-09-07, 11:08 PM | Or perhaps Abeir is the name of Ed's own Realms, and this is all in fact much closer to the original, his Realms and our Realms forcefully recombined. Also bah.Now THERE'S a happy thought. :dancin: One thing I said early on, when 4e was first announced, was that it sounded like the world was going back to the way Ed had it. I know he's been VERY close-mouthed for the last two years because of numerous NDAs, so it makes some sense if Ed wasn't merely consulting, but actually designing a lot of what is happening. That is something I COULD get behind. Besides, I'm intrigued by Drizzt's talk of "Cities of the dead". ;) |
| atwatson09-11-07, 02:39 PM | I think that the troubles facing the Silver Marches a 100 yrs. from now are similar to the troubles Drizzt will face in the new trilogy. He states that he feels as if he is not on a straight road but is going in circles. The challenges facing the orcs, dwarves, humans etc. in the preview are the same as they face at the founding of the Kingdom of Dark Arrows. Lord Hralien tells Drizzt that the orcs need him again. The trilogy may well cover the events leading to the Treaty of Garums Gourge. |
| Rizogue09-11-07, 03:57 PM | If Eberron even touches The Forgotten Realms, I am staying in the 3rd Edition, and locking the door. :mad: The fact that they are both listed as Settings on the 4E Wizards site makes me feel good. Keep that Eberron stuff where it belongs: On other people's bookshelves. Bring over Planescape's Sigil as the City of Doors of Faerun's planar travellers, Hell even bring Ravenloft back within the 4E Realmslore, but please keep Eberron away. On the real point of this post: I am going right into that sample chapter right now to over-analyze it as I may. From what I'm reading here, it sounds quite, quite interresting. :D |
| Forest_Wanderer_Aerandir09-11-07, 04:16 PM | Agreed. If Ebberon ever comes near us, we'll pit Drizzt and Jarlaxle against whatever their mainstays are. We'd win. That'd be interesting on the other boards....comprise a dream-team from FR and a dream-team from Ebberon, and pit them against each other. |
| soulnova09-11-07, 05:57 PM | I would throw Klauth the Old Snarl in the team. Sure, he eats lots of people and his own kin, but surely he wont like this "Abeirron". LOL So: -7 sister -Elminister -Drizzt -Jarlaxle -Artemis Entreri (Half shade would come in handy) -Erevis Cale -Klauth, The Old Snarl. -Gareth and Co. Add yours. xD |
| Diffan09-11-07, 06:32 PM | I would throw Klauth the Old Snarl in the team. Sure, he eats lots of people and his own kin, but surely he wont like this "Abeirron". LOL So: -7 sister -Elminister -Drizzt -Jarlaxle -Artemis Entreri (Half shade would come in handy) -Erevis Cale -Klauth, The Old Snarl. -Gareth and Co. Add yours. xD Might also add Cadderly and Co. as well. Always can use an epic cleric. :) |
| Forest_Wanderer_Aerandir09-11-07, 07:26 PM | Ok, if we're going to make this interesting, we might as well at least put some sort of thingies around it. Make each team have 10 people or whatever, and then when we've gotten a sufficient amount of replies, we'll tally who's included the most. Keep in mind we can't include God's.....the top 10 people are the FR dream team. Then I just have to go pester Eberron to do it. :P Here's mine: 1. Elminster 2. Drizzt 3. Artemis Entreri 4. Jarlaxle 5. Pharaun 6. Bruenor Battlehammer 7. Cadderly 8. Erevis Cale 9. Valas Hune 10. Lady Alustriel |
| MarkusTay6309-11-07, 07:37 PM | Ao. Game...Set...Match. ;) |
| Forest_Wanderer_Aerandir09-11-07, 08:06 PM | Forget this Forgotten Realms team business. We'll just sick Markus on them. Ebberon will run back inside the minds of designers, crapping itself all the while. |
| MarkusTay6309-11-07, 08:12 PM | But I like Eberron... I consider it a training ground for good players. Then once they have developed mature tastes, they will see the light and join the FR fold. They are like canned beer... we are like a fine, red wine. :cool: |
| Forest_Wanderer_Aerandir09-11-07, 08:46 PM | Red wine before or after we have beer? |
| MarkusTay6309-11-07, 09:05 PM | You drink the beer in the car before you go in, to get your 'buzz on' first! Don't you know anything? :confused: |
| The Ubbergeek09-11-07, 09:38 PM | But I like Eberron... I consider it a training ground for good players. Then once they have developed mature tastes, they will see the light and join the FR fold. They are liked canned beer... we are like a fine, red wine. :cool: If this was not for the official agnotism -where the gods at? 0 and the (more offender to me) fact faith and alignements are disjointed - 'what? a corrupt official can still use 'good magic' and turn undeads?!?', it would be grand. Seriously, it'"s good outside of this. I can't believe it, but I am warming up to Eberron... perhaps the rises of a grognards movement in FR is slowly making me uneasy and factor in this. |
| Rizogue09-11-07, 10:35 PM | I think the Eberron designers were handed front page billing on a platter without ever working their way through the ranks to achieve it. An unproven gameworld immediately displaces all of our best articles in Dragon, has adventures that are entirely unusable to any other gameworld published in Dungeon. And it was the winning entry in a 'write an entire gameworld in a few months' contest. :rolleyes: And they surrendered Dragonlance and Ravenloft to other companies to make room for this in the 3rd Edition? :mad: I decided to pass as soon as I saw it. I may not be giving it a fair chance, but I have no desire to. I have enough unread material for the Realms to be content for some time. And with Grand History coming out, I'll be in source material heaven for quite a while now. :D |
| The Ubbergeek09-11-07, 11:30 PM | again, grognardise. They bring new ideas without following old roads, so they must be bad. Look like at the Eberronitism accusation, where the concepts similar to Eberron's are bashed without a question. It is not my prefered campaign, but the rather nice success proves that at least for now, it HOLD. As much as the other classic settings when they started. Can't believe I defend Eberron, but then, I like to present as the devil's advocate another point. Eberron is needed, it's ideas and concepts need to be analysed as a part of D&D's multiverse. I prefer FR but I can say it, that other setting have some nice aspects. It's not dumb, it's not PC, it's with a Planescape-like touch of philosophy and deeper side. Let us stop blasting it without, like you said, not even having checked it. I did and I had to admit that some of my old preconceptions are not good. And perhaps we look at the classic settings with more rosey glasses as needed, refusing to admit criticism. |
| The Ubbergeek09-11-07, 11:45 PM | Also, remember... You DO realise that MANY greyhawk fans accusate Forgotten Realms of the VERY SAME thing in the past? Pot calling the kettle black? |
| MarkusTay6309-12-07, 12:14 AM | As an ex GH DM and fanboy, I can assure you that FR is superoir (gawd, it actually hurt just now to say that). I also own a bunch of Eberron products, and was even considering fitting Sharn in somewhere (Halrua would be too easy, I was thinking Vilhon Reach). I love every world TSR/WotC has put out (although I didn't support Birthright or CoW). Let me tell you, as great as GH was, Faerûn achieves a level of Realism I never felt with the Flaenes. To me, GH was one of the finest examples of a two-dimensional world ever produced, but Toril has Depth. It has reached deep into the 3rd dimension and continues to plummet into it's furthest shores. We do not think the designers should create new lore about the past, we EXPECT them to tell us what REALLY happened, because to us, it has. They are historians, not gamers, and that is the difference, IMHO. The only world that ever came close to FR was Mystara, BTW, and even though they had an entire campaign taking place on the inside of the planet, it still didn't have the 'old, crusty feel' we fell in love with in the Realms. Anyhow, I'm just wrapping up the RotP tonight, and guess what? I've got to deal with the emo-ramblings of a sniveling Drow Ranger even though he isn't even in the book! We still get those annoying 'Drizzt Introspectives' when he's not around. The only thing sort of positve about it is that he talks about the Orc Kingdom in his musings, so at least some of the info in that spoiler was old news already. He even congratulates Obould on NOT being a typical Orc. Too bad I fell so far behind with my reading... I'm starting Elminster's daughter tomorrow. :D |
| soulnova09-12-07, 12:59 AM | WAIT, now that you mention it, Vaasa might be safe after all! If the journals are been written in the "future" he just said Alustriel, Bruenor and Gareth are goodly kings in the world... :P Vaasa was already in the Points of light feeling so is not to be surprised they survived the spellplague. |
| MarkusTay6309-12-07, 02:52 AM | Vassa may be safe, but Jarlaxle is probably King (or Entreri). But you're right though, Vassa already had the whole 'Points of Light' feel to it. |
| Miryana09-12-07, 04:03 AM | I hope the CCC doesn't end up being a part of the 4E FRCS. It's such a ridiculously obvious real world analogue, I couldn't take it seriously. People unhappy with the idea of an orc kingdom, after centuries and millennia of raids and the fact that the orc pantheon is evil? Perfectly understandable. Tension, attacks, yes. But the CCC attacking homesteads and killing males? :rolleyes: |
| Fabius Maximus09-12-07, 09:10 AM | From my point of view, the Realms need change. Very much so. Let's face it: They've gone stale. Even the ToT and the arrival of Shade couldn't change that. Bringing about truly world shaking events (for the RSE's were not really RSE's) may be the only way to save the setting from going the way Greyhawk went, before more and more people jump ship to other settings. Heck, I recently caught myself thinking that the Pathfinder setting is more interesting than the Realms. And it's quite standard fare. I see the existance of the many, many really detailed FR fluff books as the main problem. Sure, they are relicts from 2e, but still valid. So much information kills creativity. Proof of this are the ingoing player written articles for the new Dungeon and Dragon magazines. Eberron stuff outnumbers FR stuff, much to the surprise of the staff. |
| Rizogue09-12-07, 10:21 AM | Proof of this are the ingoing player written articles for the new Dungeon and Dragon magazines. Eberron stuff outnumbers FR stuff, much to the surprise of the staff. Alright folks, we need to mobilize! If Ha$bro decides that the people want Eberron and not FR, the new Dungeon and Dragon Online content is going to be even more lost to us. We need to all sit down and write some FR stuff and send it in today! Obviously there is a conspiracy going on in the Eberron forums to continue plaguing our favorite magazines with a bunch of useless information on Shifters and Warforged nonsense. We need to act, and act now. We have already lost James Wyatt to this blasphemous plot. Who's next? Stop reading this post and write! *Opens Word for Windows, and looks back to see if you're still here reading this post* :mad: |
| capnvan09-12-07, 11:25 AM | From my point of view, the Realms need change. Very much so. Let's face it: They've gone stale. Even the ToT and the arrival of Shade couldn't change that. Bringing about truly world shaking events (for the RSE's were not really RSE's) may be the only way to save the setting from going the way Greyhawk went, before more and more people jump ship to other settings. In addition to disagreeing with you, I'm at something of a loss to understand what you mean about Greyhawk. As far as I was concerned, the Greyhawk Wars helped drive me away from the setting. It suggested to me that the designers had basically lost the ability to take a fairly richly detailed world and actually make it work. So they destroyed it. "How do we reinvigorate this setting?" "Blow it up, dude!" "Great idea!" That's the Homer Simpson clean up plan: use dynamite. As I understand it, Greenwood and his group have been playing in the Realms for, well, about 3 decades. They didn't bother with the ToT, and since his campaign, the last I heard, is a number of years behind the "official" timeline, I don't think they've included the return of the shades. 30 years without RSE. I think that suggests that they don't find the setting "stale." Eberron: post-apocalyptic war. Greyhawk: post-apocalyptic war. I, for one, enjoy a setting where not everything is burned down to sell more books. I don't want to buy another "City of Splendors" because the aboleth have taken over. If they're looking to sell books, there's plenty of places that still haven't been particularly well detailed. I don't find the Realms stale. If anything, I've found the last 20 years of the timeline overly padded. Any more RSEs and all the good stuff will be falling off the mantle. Sometimes, it's OK to just leave well enough alone. |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin09-12-07, 11:33 AM | Sometimes, it's OK to just leave well enough alone. Agreed. The Realms, as it is, is not stale for everyone. I, for one, am not interested in a post-apocaplytic FR setting...and I don't think I'll be giving WotC any of my money for sourcebooks that detail such a setting. If I am no longer entertained by a product line, I'm not going to continue to buy the products. |
| MarkusTay6309-12-07, 12:21 PM | I intend to make submissions to D&D Online, but it will need to take a back seat to projects that I have already committed to (and not just on this site). I'm not too worried about a bunch of 14 yr olds with delusions of grandeur one-upping us. FR is about Quality, not Quantity. Besides, that is just their sad and desperate attempt to get some 4e love, and we already have that (weather we like it or not). Are they so desperate to get their world turned upside-down as well? :confused: You guys only mentioned the TSR/WotC worlds - their are dozens of post-apocalyptic worlds in D20 already, so this is going to just get lost in the bunch now. Talk about making a setting stale... :rolleyes: @Rinonalyryn - Just do what I intend to; buy the 4e FRCS, and if you hate it, don't buy anymore products for it. Don't hate it sight-unseen; you never know, they might not screw it up. |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin09-12-07, 12:48 PM | @Rinonalyryn - Just do what I intend to; but the 4e FRCS, and if you hate it, don't buy anymore products for it. Don't hate it sight-unseen; you never know, they might not screw it up. I've mentioned before, though, that most of the recent changes have been ones I've disliked. The RSEs I dislike the most are usually the ones that change around the setting the most, and the Spellplague is slated to be the biggest RSE EVER. With that in mind, it's only natural for me to not be completely neutral to all this. Sure, I'll look the new FRCS over (in an "I just have to get a look at this train-wreck" kind of way), but I may not buy it, and I predict that I probably won't continue to buy any other 4E FR products. I don't need information on a version of the setting that I dislike. |
| Skeptical Clown09-12-07, 01:32 PM | I think maybe people are taking this "two worlds" stuff a bit too literally. It's a pretty typical metaphor to describe very different lifestyles or cultures as two distinct worlds. As for the name, doesn't Abeir-Toril mean "Cradle of Life"? Dropping the 'Abeir' would indicate that one part of that title is no longer accurate. My guess would be the 'Life' part. It sounds like the Forgotten Realms are being eased into a position of fitting the "Points of Light" style of gameplay envisioned in 4th edition. To that end, the sources of stability in Faerun are eroding, and the figures of power and benevolence would have to be weakened or eliminated. |
| The Ubbergeek09-12-07, 01:43 PM | Mirana, it is a classic fantasy fare, too... darker, well, but still. Maybe the 'two worlds' mean indeed a cultural clash? perhaps like - another idea - the barbarian invasions of dying rome, and the profound changes of europe, as the eastern analogues... |
| Skeptical Clown09-12-07, 02:02 PM | Sure like... The kingdom of Many-Arrows and the Silver Marches. :) |
| MarkusTay6309-12-07, 02:29 PM | In the RW, I would have to concur, but in a Fantasy setting that one line could mean SO much more. Thats the problem - he worded it specifically that way, knowing that in FR, of all places, it would be taken that way. Now, that doesn't mean it isn't a 'Red Herring' just to bait us... Take into account that during Gencon, one of the designers mentioned bringing back the 'Forgotten' in the Forgotten Realms, and Ed's comment in the final Dragon about us learning what happened to the 'Abeir' in Abeir-Toril. Either they are causing us to chase our own tails, or some major multi-dimensional mojo is in the works. |
| Miryana09-12-07, 02:36 PM | I don't have a problem with that group of elven supremacists (Eldreth Veluuthra, IIRC) or a Many Arrows/Silver Marches culture clash, but a racist group with a name that's abbreviated like the KKK? For me, that's jarringly modern and brings the immersion in fantasy to a grinding halt. Show some imagination, 4E developers! |
| MarkusTay6309-12-07, 02:55 PM | Well, the EV are the FR equivalent of the Neo-Natzis, and now we have the equivalent of the KKK - I guess the Heartlands is going to look like a redneck extravaganza. All we need is Nascar, and a group that shaves their heads because they are 'affronted' by hairy Orcs... :rolleyes: |
| The Ubbergeek09-12-07, 04:02 PM | I personaly think its eitheir an human simplist translatoion of the name, or an OOC nickname. |
| Bonzai09-12-07, 04:48 PM | Unfortunatly, as soon as they announced 4th edition I caught on to WotC's game plan. How do you get people to re-buy source books? The answer? Change things enough to make their material obsolete. It explains all the ground shaking events lately. Signature characters are gone, new nations are rising up, while others fall. I suspect if we wait, we will hear about some earth shattering events in the Southern Realms, changing the map there as well. Perhaps Entreri becomes the new Emporer of Calimshan, and expands it's territory. Perhaps the Sibil takes over Hhondeth, and much of the Southern regions, greatly expanding the Yaun ti empire. I expect that the new realms will be a very different place. But thats ok. I am leaning toward continuing with 3.5, and just slowly advancing the time line in real game time. With the Grand History of the realms, I'll know what the next 10 years of plot hooks will be, and can even build up to them in game. That should keep me busy enough for the forseeable future. |
| Markustay09-12-07, 06:08 PM | Tis true... We have enough material to run campaigns a dozen times over. |
| soulnova09-12-07, 07:58 PM | I don't have a problem with that group of elven supremacists (Eldreth Veluuthra, IIRC) or a Many Arrows/Silver Marches culture clash, but a racist group with a name that's abbreviated like the KKK? For me, that's jarringly modern and brings the immersion in fantasy to a grinding halt. Show some imagination, 4E developers! Miryana, I guess the name was from RAS. He did that too in RotP, making look Memnon like the decadent religious Rome in the middle ages with the "selling indulgences" stuff. :rolleyes: Perhaps Entreri becomes the new Emporer of Calimshan, and expands it's territory. Jesus, you got me there. If they do something like that I'd curse them and buy the books... dammit... >o< |
| Fabius Maximus09-12-07, 08:39 PM | In addition to disagreeing with you, I'm at something of a loss to understand what you mean about Greyhawk. As far as I was concerned, the Greyhawk Wars helped drive me away from the setting. It suggested to me that the designers had basically lost the ability to take a fairly richly detailed world and actually make it work. So they destroyed it. [...] Eberron: post-apocalyptic war. Greyhawk: post-apocalyptic war. Neither the Greyhawk Wars nor the Last War was apocalyptic. Both wars didn't destroy the worlds (or parts of it). If you want post-apocalyptic, play post Twin Cataclysm or post Xen'drik shattering. Did they change something? Yes. I know people don't want it. In fact, they don't want any change. But change is life. Lack of development eventually kills everything, in a multitude of ways. As I understand it, Greenwood and his group have been playing in the Realms for, well, about 3 decades. They didn't bother with the ToT, and since his campaign, the last I heard, is a number of years behind the "official" timeline, I don't think they've included the return of the shades. 30 years without RSE. I think that suggests that they don't find the setting "stale." What do I care what Mr. Greenwood does in his campaign? Was that supposed to change my opinion? Mr. Greenwood is partly responsible for cluttered mess the Realms are now. By pinning on regions that don't fit very well time and again (and some are blatant ripp-offs of real world's cultural clicheés), the designers slowly created a setting that lacks cohesion, has myriads of gods that tread on each other's feet. A setting that includes so much retconning that I get dizzy sometimes. I, for one, enjoy a setting where not everything is burned down to sell more books. I don't want to buy another "City of Splendors" because the aboleth have taken over. Well, you can always argue about what and how the change is about. But through this 'reboot', they not only try to sell more books, they try to get new players in, to whom the overlood of FR information seems to be quite frightening. FR is about Quality, not Quantity. More quantity means more chance for qualitly. :rolleyes: |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin09-12-07, 09:12 PM | Mr. Greenwood is partly responsible for cluttered mess the Realms are now. Got any sources for that statement? I've read Ed's replies on Candlekeep.com, and as far as I can tell it was never Ed's intention to "tack on" real worldish regions to the Realms. |
| MarkHall09-12-07, 09:27 PM | I, for one, enjoy a setting where not everything is burned down to sell more books. I don't want to buy another "City of Splendors" because the aboleth have taken over. Or to figure out what other protections they've added to the city... since 3e, it's nearly immune to dragons who aren't invited and has gained a subterranean mythal. What's next for the city? |
| Dark Wizard09-12-07, 10:59 PM | Let's face it: They've gone stale. Even the ToT and the arrival of Shade couldn't change that. Bringing about truly world shaking events (for the RSE's were not really RSE's) may be the only way to save the setting from going the way Greyhawk went, before more and more people jump ship to other settings. Heck, I recently caught myself thinking that the Pathfinder setting is more interesting than the Realms. And it's quite standard fare. Oddly, many feel it was those events that bloated the Realms up, not the details. Those events changed the common perception of the Realms. They highlighted the epic level characters and the meddling gods of the Realms (put too much emphasis on them). This was all made more ridiculous given the special circumstances of those RSEs. Many treat those extraordinary, unusual examples and events as the default state of the Realms. I can't say I blame them even if their view is far from the original feel of the Realms, which everyone now claims they want to see. WotC doesn't need another RSE to fix the Realms, they can fix the Realms just by stopping the RSEs. That is something they don't seem to understand no matter how many times people on these forums or others tell them. I see the existance of the many, many really detailed FR fluff books as the main problem. Sure, they are relicts from 2e, but still valid. So much information kills creativity. Proof of this are the ingoing player written articles for the new Dungeon and Dragon magazines. Eberron stuff outnumbers FR stuff, much to the surprise of the staff. I don't think this is indicative of anything other than an utter sense of apathy towards the DI brought on by alienation due WotC's actions towards its fan base. |
| The Ubbergeek09-12-07, 11:00 PM | Got any sources for that statement? I've read Ed's replies on Candlekeep.com, and as far as I can tell it was never Ed's intention to "tack on" real worldish regions to the Realms. Well, he is not above critics.... Some of this is his making, good or bad. I like those 'copy' regions, myself. You can't reinvent the wheel so well, really. |
| David E09-12-07, 11:08 PM | It seems to me that change itself is not a bad thing, as long as it is introduced slowly. Like Markus, I'm going to buy the 4e FRCS, but if it turns out that Wizards has turned the Realms upside down with one swift stroke (i.e. the Spellplague) I will be sorely disappointed. It would be much more prudent to introduce changes slowly. I for one agree with the people who complain that there are too many super-powerful characters in the Realms. It would make much more sense to remove them from the scenes one by one (like Khelben or Halaster), rather than destroy them en masse. It would also be much more interesting to see nations change one at a time - for instance, it would make the recent changes in Thay so much more interesting if neighboring realms remained the same, but had to adapt to the upheaval in Thay. Destroying the status quo in every nation removes the excitement from individual changes. Well, just my thoughts. |
| David E09-12-07, 11:15 PM | As I understand it, Greenwood and his group have been playing in the Realms for, well, about 3 decades. They didn't bother with the ToT, and since his campaign, the last I heard, is a number of years behind the "official" timeline, I don't think they've included the return of the shades. 30 years without RSE. I think that suggests that they don't find the setting "stale." I also thinks it's important to note that because Ed doesn't use any of the RSE's in his home campaign, his players' characters are the ones shaping the Realms. Changing the Realms a bit to bring the setting more in line with the one Ed games in - where there are less super-powerful characters, PCs are one of the primary forces of change, and shining civilization doesn't exist in every nook and cranny of the world - would not necessarily be a bad thing. Applying the "points of light" approach to certain parts of the Realms, as Rich Baker has suggested will happen in the 4e FRCS, could actually be GREAT for the setting. Not that I'm advocating a total upheaval of the Realms as some people are worrying will happen, that would totally suck. |
| MarkusTay6309-12-07, 11:20 PM | Exactly. Things are finally happening that we have wanted to see, like a civil war in Thay, Mulhorand flexing its muscles once again, a humanoid kingdom on the rise (two actually, if you count those Syphillis guys), Sembia trying to annex the Dales, Zhentil Keep doing likewise, etc... These are all on-going story-lines that we, the players, have been waiting over ten years to sink pur teeth into, and now that they are finally occurring Wizads just wants to skip right over it all and tell us how it ended? :uh-huh: Thats like telling us nothing our characters ever did mattered.... :( And in the end, if nothing we do will effect the outcome, why play at all.... :allalone: |
| David E09-12-07, 11:36 PM | To be fair, though, Wizards of the Coast cannot possibly take into account how events play out in every person's home FR game. It's only possible for them to follow the changes that occur with each new FR product. Yet it would be prudent of them to avoid changing everything in the Realms, otherwise it's going to screw up everyone's game. Oh well. I'm just gonna wait and see what happens. |
| BadCatMan09-13-07, 12:01 AM | There's nothing wrong with the Points Of Light approach, but it's not the only play-style possible. The evil empire, the good kingdom, the warring city-states, the roaming tribes, these are all equally good and classic fantasy models. The Realms is a big place, and it surely has enough room in it to accommodate all these models, for all players who are interested in them. I think that has been the Realms best feature. The Realms does not need to be all Points Of Light. They could have simply just played up this aspect in the areas where it already should have existed, like the Sword Coast, the North, the Silver Marches and elsewhere. Not by destroying the existing civilisations, but by just emphasizing "there's a forest here, no-one knows what's in it, but it's probably demons". Then they could leave Thay for the evil empire games, Cormyr for the good kingdom games and so on. |
| MarkusTay6309-13-07, 12:08 AM | Vasa, Damara, The Impiltur frontier, vast parts of the Vast, Moonsea North, Narfell, the entire Shaar, Maztica, Chult, the Utter East, etc, etc... We had TONS of 'points of Light' style areas already, including right in the heartlands. Just traveling from one Dale to another was hazardous, or across the Stonelands. We did not NEED an entire planet of this s__t. |
| Dark Wizard09-13-07, 12:18 AM | :noway: Is it that hard to emphasize the good parts of the setting or the parts that already overwhelmingly go along with the "new" trend and flavor rather than destroying everything hoping to recreate it enough to exceed the old version? How often is the simulacrum as good as the real thing? Talk about POINTS-OF-LIGHT, didn't Myth Drannor used to be an entire field of black surrounded by very faint points of light with may be a fading ember here or there in the middle? You know the ultimate example of the points-of-light? Didn't they restore Myth Drannor, which is supposed to be a shining beacon to rival the sun. Like I've always said, no fault of anyone's but WotC's own fumbling. |
| The Ubbergeek09-13-07, 01:17 AM | I also thinks it's important to note that because Ed doesn't use any of the RSE's in his home campaign, his players' characters are the ones shaping the Realms. Changing the Realms a bit to bring the setting more in line with the one Ed games in - where there are less super-powerful characters, PCs are one of the primary forces of change, and shining civilization doesn't exist in every nook and cranny of the world - would not necessarily be a bad thing. Applying the "points of light" approach to certain parts of the Realms, as Rich Baker has suggested will happen in the 4e FRCS, could actually be GREAT for the setting. Not that I'm advocating a total upheaval of the Realms as some people are worrying will happen, that would totally suck. Well, there is always that issue when a rpg change of edition, and rules are quite much modified; Two poles; Eitheir you say 'it was always like this, it never changed only it was shadowed/hidden, etc', a sort fo retcon. or Eitheir you bring a WCE (World Changing Events). You can't do nothing at all, and eitheir ways can get bad reactions - look at the reactions 3,X's FR got as they chose the first way. I hear many critics, but honestly, how a game designer and writter is expected to please everyone AND keep logic AND think of game-ability? It's an hard thing to design. White WOlf brought a WHOLE Armaggedon to end up it's old lines and reset all, and Shadowrun had a Crash 2,0, the Comet events and so on to slowly making way for 4the dition. |
| David E09-13-07, 01:47 AM | We did not NEED an entire planet of this s__t. Well, Rich Baker has said that the points of light approach is only going to be applied to "certain areas" of the Realms, not to Faerun in its entirety. He said explicitly that Wizards is not going to mess with the overall flavor of the setting. Despite the alarming indications to the contrary - *cough*the orc king*cough* - I'm willing to take his word for it and give the 4e FRCS a chance. You can't do nothing at all, and eitheir ways can get bad reactions - look at the reactions 3,X's FR got as they chose the first way. I hear many critics, but honestly, how a game designer and writter is expected to please everyone AND keep logic AND think of game-ability? It's an hard thing to design. You make valid points, but I still wonder if it is indeed impossible for a designer of "fluff" to do nothing at all about the rules changes. Take the Simbul, for instance. Before 3e, she had no levels of Sorcerer (IIRC) because a Sorcerer class did not exist (again, IIRC because I only started getting into D&D after 3e, but I've been reading 2e stuff since then). When 3e rolled around and the Simbul was suddenly a Sorcerer, Wizards went with the approach that "it's always been this way." Now let's say that 4e rolls around and there is no Sorcerer class (although this won't be the case, let's pretend it happens). Suddenly the Simbul isn't statted as a Sorcerer anymore, but a level 30 Mage. Rather than make some complicated explanation for why the Simbul is no longer a Sorcerer but a Mage, wouldn't it be easier for a designer simply to just say that the Simbul manifests magic from an innate source, rather than studying it? I honestly think there needs to be more of a separation of rules from "fluff" in the Forgotten Realms. |
| MarkusTay6309-13-07, 02:49 AM | Richard Baker also made a freudian slip - he specifically referred to it as the 'new' Realms. A small time-jump and a few bad areas would not entitle it to be called 'new'. New means "not like the old". Thats what it means, plain and simple. And sadly, after THAT spoiler, either he or RAS is lieing... :rolleyes: |
| Miryana09-13-07, 03:09 AM | I personaly think its eitheir an human simplist translatoion of the name, or an OOC nickname. I don't remember people in the Realms being fans of acronyms before (we have the Harpers and mentions of Those Who Harp, but no evil villains grumbling about how their plans were foiled by TWH). If they have to be there, at least use the full "elven" name of C---- C- C---- (can't remember it right now), but The Orc King excerpt establishes that they're known as the CCC. It's anachronistic and lazy. |
| Spelldancer09-13-07, 03:26 AM | Instead of a physical joining of two worlds, what if it means more culturally. Like say the drow trying to get back on the surface. Joining the underdark with the above ground.. which might prove to be a disaster. |
| Fabius Maximus09-13-07, 07:06 AM | Oddly, many feel it was those events that bloated the Realms up, not the details. Those events changed the common perception of the Realms. They highlighted the epic level characters and the meddling gods of the Realms (put too much emphasis on them). This was all made more ridiculous given the special circumstances of those RSEs. Many treat those extraordinary, unusual examples and events as the default state of the Realms. I can't say I blame them even if their view is far from the original feel of the Realms, which everyone now claims they want to see. WotC doesn't need another RSE to fix the Realms, they can fix the Realms just by stopping the RSEs. That is something they don't seem to understand no matter how many times people on these forums or others tell them.Just how many people on these forums complained? I see about a dozen, and all of them regulars. All of them long-time FR players. It's not that different on Candlekeep. Where are the others? Where are the new players? It is arrogant to stand there group-pouting, demanding that the designers shall model the Realms exclusivly around the wishes of a small group of people that does not seem to represent the majority of Realms players. I don't think this is indicative of anything other than an utter sense of apathy towards the DI brought on by alienation due WotC's actions towards its fan base. Well, that's possible, I guess. But not very probable. As I said: The regular crowd here is not representative. |
| TomCosta09-13-07, 07:56 AM | I suppose what I find most shocking about some of the comments I've been seeing here and elsewhere is that the very thing that made FR unique at the time of its introduction as a proper game setting back in the late 80s was that it was tied to novels and was dynamic. Prior to that most settings, including Greyhawk, were primarily static settings where things didn't change radically. And within a couple years of FR coming out the Time of Troubles happened, gods were overthrown, new ones appeared, dead magic, wild magic, guns all joined the Realms, and the novels kept coming. Dynamism is now the standard because of the Realms and the novels attached to it. I wouldn't want that to change. Each change is reason for a new good story, and that's what keeps the Realms lively and fun to play in. As for the casual dismissal of WotC as trying to get our money. What's wrong with that. As a business, that's their job. If they do it well, we buy their products and they make their money. If they do it poorly, we don't. It's easy to psych yourself out about all the horrible changes about to happen and how bad they are, but honestly and it's no my intent to offend, but most of the complaints I see voiced here are nothing new. They happened with each change in the game and each dreaded so-called RSE, and yet the game and setting retained their appeal. Some talk wistfully of the glory days of FR, easily forgetting such products as Cormyr or the Dalelands or others, and instead clinging to a handful of products. Truth is all editions of the game have had some duds, but by and large Wizards has improved on the quality of game products over TSR. Others cling to rumors about this or that, so many of which are simply unfounded. At the end of the day FR is a great setting created from the amazingly fertile imagination of Ed Greenwood, who appears ready to continue his involvement with the Realms. It has been shepherded by such steady hands as Ed, Eric Boyd, Steven Schend, and Rich Baker, and others past and present in a mix of novels and game products, quite successfully up until now (given all of the cries of its not like it used to be). And dismissing Salvatore is almost as silly as dismissing Ed. Regardless of your own personal views, Salvatore was there at the beginning, has remained, and more importantly, crafted a character that has become the settings most famous and drawn new people to the Realms. So now it appears that we will have some more darkness in the Realms and some in game reasons for the technical changes to the rules (which will hopefully be the better game WotC has told us to expect). This is not going to ruin the setting in my view, but just give us more opportunity to set things "right" in our own games. And as for comparisons to Eberron and Dragonlance. Frankly, it's ridiculous. Both are excellent settings, well thought out. Ditto for Greyhawk. They all have their unique qualities which each of us will decide we like more or less. I choose FR, but that doesn't mean I can't appreciate some of the wonders of Krynn brought to me by Weis and Hickman (though I don't find the time to read novels by other DL authors) or some of the new ideas in Eberron (whose novels I haven't cracked, but heard good things about from people I trust) or some of the ideas that set the standards for everyone from Greyhawk. From my point of view, I hope the Realms give us and authors more to mess with than we have now. I don't think the setting has gone stale, but between game products and authors, we've definitely started to go through major baddies and plot hooks, and the setting could use some more of both in my view. Good has been ascendent for too long. I know I won't like it all, but I never have (for example, the seemingly inexplicable scattering of pseudo-Arabic culture across the Realms anyone in Calimshan, Turmish, Semphar, Maztica, and Anauroch -- a problem its worth noting that neither DL or Eberron have). Still I prefer FR to other settings, and dare say as a rabid fan who has it all, relish the setting. That said, I look forward to seeing how the whole Lathander/Amaunator thing works out with Lathander's plot for a new "Dawn Cataclysm." I look forward to seeing how that plays into the brewing Shadowstorm and what that means for Mystra and Weave and Shar and the Shadow Weave. I look forward to seeing what happens with end of the Rage and the potential for new dragon kingdoms outside of Chessenta/Threskel (though I'm not a big fan of the dragonspawn or dragonkin), and I eagerly await the Realms actually having at least one goblinoid/orc/humanoid kingdom. I'm also excited to see the return of ancient elven homelands to the Realms and the opportunity to explore realms that have fallen both ancient and more recent. I look forward to FR continuing its dynamism as a game setting, continuing to play (this is just a game after all) in its woods, deserts, and mountains, and reading its novels (especially the better ones). |
| MerrikCale09-13-07, 03:11 PM | Truth is all editions of the game have had some duds, but by and large Wizards has improved on the quality of game products over TSR. Tom, I agree with every single you word you said except for that line. I found most of the 3.5 stuff subpar to even 3e stuff as well as the 2e TSR stuff. Sourcebooks like Lords of Darkness and the Silver Marches blow the Champions and PFtF out of the water as far as I'm concerned. And the 2e stuff (TSR) , especially the Deities books, are superior to the WOTC counterparts. But you are right. What draws me to the Realms more than anything is the novels and the way the Realms have grown. For better (erevis cale, the moonstars/harpers, etc) or worse (the shades) But you must realize that nearly everyone gets a little nervous about change, especially drastic change which this seems to be. As for money, yes WoTC is a business. I don't begrudge them that. And if we didn't get that 3.5 only a few years ago, we wouldn't be having this discussion. As for RA Salvatore, I'll pass on talking about him. I'm a defender of his. He introduced me to the Realms many many years ago and I've enjoyed most of his books since. |
| MarkusTay6309-13-07, 03:13 PM | Well said Tom, and you give me slightly more hope. I would agree with you on most points - we were ready for a new rules edition and a new editon of the FRCS. What we fans WEREN'T ready for was a hundred year time-jump, basically killing off ALL of our PCs in the process. Thats a hard nut to swallow, IMHO. Everything else is true, though. Many of the plots should have seen fruition or came to a head years ago, so it seems right to end those storylines and create new ones. A 10-15 year jump would have done that just as well. I personally like a Darker setting, so I have no problem with that either. As a DM, it gives me a lot more room to flex my 'evil'. However, it could have been done on less of a global scale. Since I'm only basing this on what we've read, hopefully there will be larger points of light scattered about to go along with the Silver Marches. In fact, the thing I fear the most is everyone else's attitude - if people don't 'buy into' the new FR, its going to go bye-bye forever. You are correct in mentioning that WotC is a business, and is there to make money, so it will not keep a failing line afloat. Thats why I keep urging everyone to at least look at the 4e FRCS before giving up. There just might be enough of the old Realms left to make us feel at home - at least I hope so, for everyone's sake. I have to ask you one thing - How come all of this 'points of Light' stuff wasn't done off-continent? Most of Toril is still un-developed, and anything new you guys created would have been embraced there. Eberron has Stormreach and Xendrik for players who want to try 'something different'. It's a big planet, and I just don't understand why some other region couldn't have been used for 4e. I remember that Toril used to have six seperate Campaign areas... what happened to that? Even Mystara had three completely different campaigns set on one planet. |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin09-13-07, 03:44 PM | I don't agree with the claim that good in the Realms has been ascendent for too long (and that claim, itself, isn't new either--I first saw it years ago). However, I won't argue the point, I'm content to just agree to disagree. The agitation people feel whenever big changes occur may not be new, but I don't think that somehow invalidates it. And of course, whether or not the setting retains it's appeal varies from person to person. I've found many of the recent RSEs unappealing for a long time--it's not like my current disappointment is something new or something that just happened out of the blue. I still love the Realms and I'll stick with it, I just don't agree with some design decisions WotC has been making lately. That's just the way it is. |
| MarkusTay6309-13-07, 03:52 PM | I don't agree with the claim that good in the Realms has been ascendent for too long (and that claim, itself, isn't new either--I first saw it years ago). However, I won't argue the point, I'm content to just agree to disagree.I would have to agree with you here, Rinonalyrna. What was in the books was a setting; it was the DM's job to adjust the 'tone' (level of good vs. evil) in his or her campaign. For instance, we know that there are Zhentarrim agents hidden in the Dales. We also know there are Harper agents. By adjusting both of the numbers up or down, we can create the condition WE want without upsetting the Lore. The same can be said for ANY region - are there 35 Orcs hiding in the mountains, or 35,000? A good DM can spin the lore the way HE or SHE chose - the level of darkness was NOT determined by the setting. IMHO, I thought FR always had the PERFECT mix of good and evil. The fact that new gamers need to be told exactly how to play is so counter to the creative processes that RPGs USED to represent. :( |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin09-13-07, 04:11 PM | Perfectly well put, Markus. |
| MerrikCale09-13-07, 04:21 PM | The fact that new gamers need to be told exactly how to play is so counter to the creative processes that RPGs USED to represent. :( I get your tone, but I'm not sure I agree with you on one point. There are a lot of gamers out there with no time and/or no experience and need help to some extent. The experienced ones can "weed out" what they don't like. |
| MarkusTay6309-13-07, 04:30 PM | I understand where you are coming from. I personally go both ways when it comes to stuff like that. I Create quite a bit from scratch, but I also rely heavily on printed materials. The problem I have is that someone, somewhere, though FR needed to be Darker. Now, I consider myself at least an adequate DM (I have gamed with god-like ones), and I could take the Ravenloft rules and run a game inside of Faerûn using them. How 'dark' I want my encounters to be is my choice, not the settings. I can also use some of the sillier ones from GH (and have) in the Realms, its all about mood. (I used to love to run a 'horror' adventure every year around Halloween, with funny ones around Apr. 1st). Even living in Shadowdale, you can make a simple walk 'out back' to a woodshed a dark and frightening experience. Why do we need the entire setting to be pre-determined like this? I like to run 'light hearted' adventures on occasion, and although I am sure I still will be able to in 4e, it no longer fits the flavor of the setting. I just feel too 'trapped' by what little we've seen. |
| TomCosta09-13-07, 04:53 PM | Merrik, I agree that some of the 3E books were better than some of the 3.5E books, although both were Wizards and not TSR, but I'd stack most of the 3E or 3.5E books against the 1E and 2E books with a few exceptions, the 2E god books for example remain perhaps my all time favorites. In any case, its a matter of opinion, but when I look at 22Es Moonsea and compare it Silver Marches I blanche, likewise when I compare the Netheril box set to Lost Empires or Warriors and Priests to Champions of Valor or the Marcus Volo modules to City of the Spider Queen, but its certainly a personal preference. RF, As for good being ascendent, prior to at 3E at least we saw the gradual pacification of much of the Realms, the expansion of the Silver Marches and Waterdeep, Aglarond and Rashemen continuing to defeat or hold back Thay, the Dales continuing to repulse everyone, Sembia happily trading, the Chosen coming to the rescue. I think that began to change with 3E, sped up with 3.5E, and appears to be coming in faster with 4E, to which I say yeah, but I agree again that perceptions may differ. I also think all a lot of the old standby characters do need to be shaken up. Too many of them (the humans at least) are 100+ years old. And it wasn't my intention to invalidate anyone's fears or concerns. I have some of my own. I guess I feel like this is something that shouldn't be so upsetting or shocking because the Realms have had lots of RSEs. Criminy we even have an acronym for them they happen so often. Markus, I could be wrong, but its my understanding that the time jump will be 10 years to 1385 DR, and that the Drizzt novel has a portion of it (which we've seen) told from Drizzt's perspective way in the future. If it were otherwise, it would not track well with the previous Drizzt books, but I guess we'll see in just a couple weeks. If it is 100 years, I agree that would be too much, and I hope that's not the case, but my understanding is the Grand History which we brought up to 1375, was brought up another 10 years by Wizards to 1385. As for the points of light not occurring in other places, I have no idea. My guess is because despite many fans having an interest in the other continents, most appear happier to get more information about Faerun itself and play in that portion of the Realms. I do disagree that this is a way of telling gamers how to play. On the contrary, I think giving people something to work with is a great beginning and frankly, if folks didn't want the details, which they've clearly become invested in, they probably wouldn't get as upset about the changes. I understand, sometimes it can be like having one of your favorite characters die, except he/she isn't dead yet. That said I also can't imagine the setting losing all of its lighter spots. Evil may be more ascendent, but I'm sure how much that affects each town or each gamer or each game will be largely up to the DM and players. Wizard will certainly be shooting themselves in the foot if they reduce the versatility of the setting overly much. |
| MarkusTay6309-13-07, 05:18 PM | Markus, I could be wrong, but its my understanding that the time jump will be 10 years to 1385 DR... <snip>Tom... THANK YOU... you just made my week. No........ my year. :D |
| Tseramed09-13-07, 05:50 PM | Is it me or I remember reading somewhere ( might be the 2nd edition FRCS) that the realms move at a pace of "x" years = "y" years in real life. If they stick to that, I don't think we'll see a 100 years timejump. In fact I trully believe it won't be like that. Even though I'm sure I would like it the way it sounds... ;) |
| MarkusTay6309-13-07, 06:03 PM | They have not stuck by that since the day after it was printed. ;) |
| TomCosta09-13-07, 06:52 PM | I think Tseramed is right, but I can't remember if it was supposed to be 2 years of Realms time for each year of real time or vice versa. In any case, the realms begain in 1356 DR in 1988 IIRC and it's now 1375 DR in 2007, so that's 20 years of Realms time in 20 years of real time, but I'm pretty sure it was intended to 2 to 1 one way or another. |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin09-13-07, 06:59 PM | RF, As for good being ascendent, prior to at 3E at least we saw the gradual pacification of much of the Realms, the expansion of the Silver Marches and Waterdeep, Aglarond and Rashemen continuing to defeat or hold back Thay, the Dales continuing to repulse everyone, Sembia happily trading, the Chosen coming to the rescue. I think that began to change with 3E, sped up with 3.5E, and appears to be coming in faster with 4E, to which I say yeah, but I agree again that perceptions may differ. I also think all a lot of the old standby characters do need to be shaken up. Too many of them (the humans at least) are 100+ years old. Indeed, we all have different perceptions about this. But I appreciate that you explained your stance a bit more. Personally, I think there's a lot of dark stuff that balances out the victories, but like I said I'm content to agree to disagree on the subject (and I don't want to get off-topic, either). And it wasn't my intention to invalidate anyone's fears or concerns. I have some of my own. Understood. :) I guess I feel like this is something that shouldn't be so upsetting or shocking because the Realms have had lots of RSEs. Criminy we even have an acronym for them they happen so often. You're right, RSEs have always been around, but they've been going at a pace and intensity that some people (myself included) feel uncomfortable with. I can't say that I'm really that shocked by them anymore, but having read the Orc King sample chapter I'm not surprised that many Realms fans have had their feathers ruffled (that's a LOT of changes to swallow in a short period of time, for the reader at least). Thanks for sharing your thoughts about this. RF |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin09-13-07, 07:08 PM | I think Tseramed is right, but I can't remember if it was supposed to be 2 years of Realms time for each year of real time or vice versa. In any case, the realms begain in 1356 DR in 1988 IIRC and it's now 1375 DR in 2007, so that's 20 years of Realms time in 20 years of real time, but I'm pretty sure it was intended to 2 to 1 one way or another. I could have sworn the 3E FRCS stated the intention to move the Realms timeline ahead by 2 years for every 5 years of products. From the beginning of 3E/3.5E to it's closure, I actually think WotC stuck to that fairly well, whether they intended to or not. |
| MerrikCale09-13-07, 08:34 PM | but having read the Orc King sample chapter I'm not surprised that many Realms fans have had their feathers ruffled (that's a LOT of changes to swallow in a short period of time, for the reader at least). Perhaps its a (to use an X-Men metaphor) Days of Future Past type of scenario. You know a "this could be what will happen if you Pcs and whatnot don't save the world". Do we know the future Drizzt sees must be the one that happens. Perhaps the stuff that happens during the 10 year jump only starts things in that apocalyptic direction. |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin09-13-07, 09:03 PM | Perhaps its a (to use an X-Men metaphor) Days of Future Past type of scenario. You know a "this could be what will happen if you Pcs and whatnot don't save the world". Do we know the future Drizzt sees must be the one that happens. Perhaps the stuff that happens during the 10 year jump only starts things in that apocalyptic direction. Well, I've said before that I'm a cynic, so I think this particular future is going to be set-in-stone canon.:) |
| BadCatMan09-13-07, 09:19 PM | It wouldn't be the first time that something set too far in the future was rendered non-canon as a result. Like the Double Diamond Triangle Saga. |
| MerrikCale09-13-07, 11:04 PM | Well, I've said before that I'm a cynic, so I think this particular future is going to be set-in-stone canon.:) Perhaps the intention today is to make that 100 years in the future canon, but whose to say the "Realms keepers" 10 years from won't retcon? |
| soulnova09-14-07, 03:31 AM | Well, I've said before that I'm a cynic, so I think this particular future is going to be set-in-stone canon :weep: *dies crying* |
| JetLeechan09-14-07, 09:08 AM | So theres no official statement that the 4E will be 100 years afar? Well, Salvatore would have to meet with all the designers and authors to give a proper outlook of the future realms, I dont know if he done this but if not his "vision" isnt likely to become "true". Or do all the novelists have to base there novels on the orc king foreword, WotC send them a mail declaring that "u know guys, read the orc king and watch out not to write something incompatible"? But even all that stuff's going to happen, we all know Drizzt is the greatest whiner in the realms and he's probably dramatizing too much. My greatest hope for 4E is still that Entreri is going to kick Drizzts a*s:D ! |
| Fabius Maximus09-14-07, 01:09 PM | So theres no official statement that the 4E will be 100 years afar? Well, Salvatore would have to meet with all the designers and authors to give a proper outlook of the future realms, I dont know if he done this but if not his "vision" isnt likely to become "true". Or do all the novelists have to base there novels on the orc king foreword, WotC send them a mail declaring that "u know guys, read the orc king and watch out not to write something incompatible"? But even all that stuff's going to happen, we all know Drizzt is the greatest whiner in the realms and he's probably dramatizing too much. My greatest hope for 4E is still that Entreri is going to kick Drizzts a*s:D ! So far, we only know that the prologue of The Orc King is set 100 years in the future. We don't even know yet if the new campaign setting will be set in 1385. |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin09-14-07, 01:21 PM | So theres no official statement that the 4E will be 100 years afar? Well, Salvatore would have to meet with all the designers and authors to give a proper outlook of the future realms, I dont know if he done this but if not his "vision" isnt likely to become "true". It's highly likely (I would even say definite) that the events described in the prologue do not represent RAS's vision, but rather WotC's. To a certain extent, authors have to write what WotC tells them to write, and every Realms novel gets "vetted" as well. And that is why it is my opinion that this prologue is "set-in-stone" canon. Of course that can be changed later, but so could anything. As for the Double Diamond Saga, I've heard from very reliable sources that some of those events will become canon once the timeline catches up to that Saga (which will be soon, apparently). Remember, I'm not on board with any of this stuff, and I think it's silly, but I'm not going to pretend it's not real and that the changes to the setting will be minor. |
| MarkusTay6309-14-07, 01:38 PM | Very True. RAS has more leeway then most, but that entire prologue was based on an outline handed to him by WotC. |
| Faraer09-14-07, 07:28 PM | RF, As for good being ascendent, This is the first time I've heard this claimed by someone I consider to understand the Realms.prior to at 3E at least we saw the gradual pacification of much of the Realms, the expansion of the Silver Marches and Waterdeep, What pacification, excepting that one small, struggling alliance?Aglarond and Rashemen continuing to defeat or hold back Thay, the Dales continuing to repulse everyone, That's not victory for good, that's stalemate.Sembia happily trading, Sembia is a capitalist near-dystopia, an unpleasant place to live except for a wealthy minority, whose merchant rulers work to destabilize nearby legitimate governments.the Chosen coming to the rescue.Pure canard. I couldn't name more than a dozen cases of that happening, out of hundreds of other plots. |
| MerrikCale09-14-07, 07:42 PM | So far, we only know that the prologue of The Orc King is set 100 years in the future. We don't even know yet if the new campaign setting will be set in 1385. I thought it was official |
| MarkusTay6309-14-07, 09:09 PM | All we know for sure is that the GHotR has its last entry as of 1385 DR, and the 4e FRCS timeline will be set at 'some point in the future'. I don't think, especially given Tom's statement, that the FRCS will be moved to 1485+, but rather put just ahead of the last entry in the GHotR. That means most likely 1386 DR, but thats just a hunch. It could even be a few years after that, like 1390 or so. On the other hand, that prologue sounds suspiciously like the story we were missing in the GHotR - maybe they changed their mind and RAS just wanted to use it somewhere. |
| Dark Wizard09-14-07, 09:51 PM | The 100 year jump isn't too important since we know that even within the 10-year jump found in the GHotR some significant things do happen, each very in line with the prologue. |
| MarkusTay6309-15-07, 01:50 AM | The more I think about it, the more a smaller jump makes sense. Think about it - they want to 'nuke' the munchkins. As of 1385 every Weave-using mage in the setting is reset to level 1. Why would they then jump ahead a hundred years, when an intelligent human could have become an epic-level Munchkin all over again? In 1386, everyone is on an even plane, so it makes much more sense to restart it then, especially from a meta-gaming point of view. |
| Meldread09-15-07, 03:47 AM | That would make sense Markus, except I don't think you've factored in the "aftermath." From what I understand basically every wizard who uses Weave based magic on Toril is going to get a chance to make a will save vs insanity or death. You either get one or the other. Die instantly or go insane. Mystra's Chosen might be able to survive this because of the portions of the Weave within them... so they could be "safe." However, every other Wizard would not. Those who go insane - and the fact that there are literally hundreds if not thousands of epic level spell casters who could go insane - we're looking at some really bad stuff. Imagine a Breaking of the World type scenario - as in the Wheel of Time. Imagine Larloch and most of his liches going insane and then just running on a rampage. It seems to me that this insanity is caused by Shar. With Mystra dead, Shar manipulating Cyric into his actions - it gives her a clear victory. She wins. Can you think of a better "Points of Light" strategy than the Goddess of Night and Darkness winning such a battle? The Weave itself might eventually come back into existence, and if so I hope Elminster ascends and takes control or it falls into the hands of Selune. However, I imagine there would end up being drawbacks. For example, the Weave would be one giant wild magic zone with huge areas where it simply would not work. If you want to use stable magic that is reliable, the Shadow Weave would be your only alternative, but it comes at a high price... An interesting dilemma. Of course, they could all just go insane and Weave based magic not function. However, if I am not mistaken the Chosen exist for the simple fact that they hold portions of the Weave within themselves, to safeguard against an action such as this. The moment the Weave begins to function again - in any capacity - you've got these uber Wizards who will run on a rampage. I don't think it would matter all that much how much they "know" the new system. It should be familiar enough that they could cause significant problems... one could even argue that it makes them even more dangerous. This of course, isn't factoring in a lot of things that makes the situation worse such as the massive numbers of deities dying. Pretty much every deity who is not a Greater Deity finds themselves a targeted potential for death. This fits into the Orc King prologue when Drizzt asked where all the benevolent gods were - most of them are probably dead. No magic. No deities. You are in a Torillian Dark Age with Shar on the upswing in power - a very big upswing. Netheril being reborn - it makes perfect sense. With the Weave gone, who are the primary spell casters left? Shadow Weave users. There is going to be a period of time where the Shadow Weave rules the world. |
| ikki09-15-07, 04:38 AM | on joining worlds.. We know they are abandoning living greyhawk, for a living FR. I believe there is a link, and thus it will be greyhawk that is merged into FR.. we have seen some signs on that, like the castle greyhawk teleporting out... FR being a suggested destination.... In the meantime ill be joining Eldreth Veluuthra and CCC :D ..yeah, lets lynch all those orcs! :D ..lol.. |
| Reneshat09-15-07, 07:46 AM | I might be totally out of line here, but it seems to me they have a few reasons to jump ahead 100 years. First, I believe I read somewhere that they weren't going to have any novels dealing with the Spellplague itself, but rather novels would be set in it's aftermath, or it's run-up. This combined with the extended chaos of who knows how many epic level casters going mad, and the death of who knows how many gods, it could take quite a while to sort out (and reach where it begins in 4ed). They are making it an RPGA campaign setting, but are trying to balance that as equal canon with the source books and novels. All of these would be a lot easier if they were able to say over 100 years, all this stuff gets destroyed, all this stuff gets made, here we are completely clean slate without all the chaos. When it comes to your home campaigns, if they do not state how exactly it happens, you are able to write it how you wish with your players, and try to give as epic an ending as possible for your home game. Conversion isn't possible they say, so rather than saying all your characters are dead (or retired), with the 100 year jump they are saying 4ed starts 100 years in the future after all this stuff when your characters would probably be dead anyway. So feel free to finish playing your characters in this not completely explained RSE, even as the primary heroes if you wish, then join us 100 years later for the new Edition with new characters. |
| Mirtek09-15-07, 08:14 AM | 100 years in the future means that most well known human NPC will be gone. While a few of them became immortal or long-lived, most will just die in that time. |
| Reneshat09-15-07, 08:47 AM | 100 years in the future means that most well known human NPC will be gone. While a few of them became immortal or long-lived, most will just die in that time. Actually I figure he would still be around, watching over and protecting the weave as always (assuming we still have the weave), from his new position as god of magic and the weave. |
| BadCatMan09-15-07, 10:17 AM | BCM remembers he used to a wannabe author and writer's list critter before he fell into DMing... (All IMHO, of course.) Something strikes me as very wrong about The Orc King prologue. I mean, apart from the obvious. :rolleyes: It's just so far into the future, well outside RAS's usual stomping ground. Half his creations and favoured areas are destroyed in a single line. This isn't typical authorial behaviour. And it's completely counter to what's in the blurbs. Why? It's non-linear storytelling, mixing up future and present to show how the latter affects the former. It's hard to say "no really, orcs can be good, give them a chance" when they've just stepped out of the horde and started calling themselves civilised. No-one's convinced, least of all the D&D-playing reader. It takes solid evidence to demonstrate this fact, the best source of it being the future. (Not Airspur, not Thesk, not the Odonti? Pity.) Hence we see Drizzt fighting for the orcs, orcs being civilised and noble and proud, and those themes reinforced by the reactionary element of the, ahem, Triple C and patronising attitudes of others. All to prove, to the reader, that the formation of the orc kingdom is ultimately a good thing. But that's not going to be done within just one prelude, of course. A more significant story is required, and what is shown is rather more properly formed than a short glimpse. I suspect we'll see a small thread running through the trilogy, set in some nebulous future, it's aim to prove how peace and tolerance and friendship, between orcs and humans and dwarves and elves, is a good thing, and necessary when set against some vague larger evil. And those visions of the future Realms? RAS is pulling them, at least half anyway, out of his ass. After all, if he's going to use the future, he needs to fill it to show it, and if he's going to show a growing good civilisation, he needs to make it stand out and look worthwhile against some doom-and-gloom. Looking at the future passages: “What of the wounds felt by Drizzt Do’Urden, who did battle with King Obould in the orc’s initial sweep of the Spine of the World?” Hralien asked. “Before the settlement of his kingdom and the treaty of Garumn’s Gorge? Or who fought again against Obould II in the great war in the Year of the Solitary Cloister?” Okay, this is all fairly predictable and clearly related, and set early on in this future history. There were times when he felt as if the road he walked was not a straight line toward progress, but a circling track, a futile loop. He let that negative notion pass, and reminded himself of how far the region had come—and that in a world gone mad from the Spellplague. Few places in all of Faerûn could claim to be more civilized than they had been those hundred years before, but the region known as the Silver Marches, in no small part because of the courage of a succession of orc kings named Obould, had much to be proud of. His perspective and memories of that time a hundred years gone, before the rise of the Empire of Netheril, the coming of the aboleths, and the discordant and disastrous joining of two worlds, Okay, more proof-making, and it's likely that RAS is in on the Spellplague. Empire Of Netheril sounds highly likely, given the whole Shade thing. But, aboleths? Where the hell did they come from? And why? And the discordant and disastrous joining of two worlds? WTF is that supposed to mean? Oh yeah: In A World Gone Mad! Sorry, I just had to say that. But it just reads like RAS is having the reader on at this point. “I have ventured outside of the Silver Marches,” Drizzt said, “have you? I have witnessed the death of once-proud Luskan, and with it, the death of a dear, dear friend, whose dreams lay shattered and broken beside the bodies of five thousand victims. I have watched the greatest cathedral in the world burn and collapse. I witnessed the hope of the goodly drow, the rise of the followers of Eilistraee. But where are they now?” Strangely, all these references clearly derive from RAS's own body of work. Luskan was the city he most used. Greatest cathedral in the world is undoubtedly Spirit Soaring. And he's always had the drow. Now he messes with specific items, but things are I imagine amongst the Realms designers belong to him, his toys to mess with as he will. Not Waterdeep or Baldur's Gate or anything that any other author gets to play with. But not for long... “Gone!” Drizzt shouted. “Gone, and gone with them the hopes of a tamed and gentle world. I have watched once safe trails revert to wilderness, and have walked a dozen-dozen communities that you will never know. They are gone now, lost to the Spellplague or worse! Where are the benevolent gods? Where is the refuge from the tumult of a world gone mad? Where are the candles to chase away the darkness?” ... “They are here, those lights of hope,” Drizzt said, to both elves. “In the Silver Marches. Or they are nowhere. Do we choose peace or do we choose war? If it is battle you seek, fool elf, then get you gone from this land. You will find death aplenty, I assure you. You will find ruins where once proud cities stood. You will find fields of wind-washed bones, or perhaps the remains of a single hearth, where once an entire village thrived. “And in that hundred years of chaos, amidst the coming of darkness, few have escaped the swirl of destruction, but we have flourished. Can you say the same for Thay? Mulhorand? Sembia? You say I betray those who befriended me, yet it was the vision of one exceptional dwarf and one exceptional orc that built this island against the roiling sea.” More vague darkness warnings, more reinforcements of the positivity of the new Silver Marches society. I think just he read the Points Of Light mission statement and just ran with it. But: Thay? Mulhorand? Sembia? I wonder why Drizzt mentions these, why he would even think of them. He never went to any of them before, and probably hasn't since the change, so why are these first on his mind? They seem to be chosen at random, when RAS realised he was too obvious about attacking his own property earlier. Maybe I just can't accept that all this crap is being laid upon the Realms, or just can't believe even WotC would do it. But the whole prelude reads less to me like a structured plan of the future, and more like a random slap-together of ideas done one afternoon, after he read Points Of Light that morning, to be used once and never again. Sigh. Gods, I hope so. My favourite planet in Doctor Who was run into the ground, hit with a Time War, utterly destroyed and wiped from history, never to exist again. Twice. You'd think I'd be used to disappointment in my fan worlds by now. |
| Mirtek09-15-07, 01:38 PM | Actually I figure he would still be around, watching over and protecting the weave as always (assuming we still have the weave), from his new position as god of magic and the weave. I don't talk about Elminster, but about all the other humans. Danilo Thann, Dag Zoreth, Bronwyn, Piergeiron, Mirt, Alusair, Scyula, .... |
| Stonehinge09-15-07, 06:46 PM | Couple of observations: 1) With what I have been reading in the novels, there will probably be a reduction in the number Dieties and Pantheons of FR 2) Changes to the magic system for 4E and referrences to a "spellplague" could be likened to the Black Death that ravaged Europe in the 13th Century which could account for a possible point of light style of setting. 3) I don't remember the year (and I could be wrong), but I seem to recall reading that one year in the 1380's is called the Year of the Circumnavigation. Which could lead to the discovery of a new world and the problems associated with this such as disease, conquest, etc. Which in turn could finally lead to sourcebooks dealing with the rest of the continents similar to what Eberron has done. 4) With uphevals in Sembia and Thay, wars between the light and dark can seriously thin out the forces of good. Cormyr is still having problems, Mulhorand and Unther are still at war. And I read somewhere (Dragons of Faerun I think) about a resumption of the Dragon Fall War. Overall, I think it will be interesting to see what happens in the 4E FR hopefully it will be for the interesting. |
| Reneshat09-16-07, 10:09 PM | I don't talk about Elminster, but about all the other humans. Danilo Thann, Dag Zoreth, Bronwyn, Piergeiron, Mirt, Alusair, Scyula, .... Oh sorry. I reread and see now it was a typo that you didn't put the "NPC" as a plural. My bad. :D |
| Passivearmada09-17-07, 03:53 PM | Whoa, who, whoa, wait, wait, wait, wait- did he say an entire century? Or could he have meant like 1400 has come? |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin09-17-07, 04:19 PM | With the Weave gone, who are the primary spell casters left? Shadow Weave users. There is going to be a period of time where the Shadow Weave rules the world. If the Weave is destroyed, how can the Weave's shadow also survive? |
| capnvan09-17-07, 04:28 PM | I might be totally out of line here, but it seems to me they have a few reasons to jump ahead 100 years. First, I believe I read somewhere that they weren't going to have any novels dealing with the Spellplague itself, but rather novels would be set in it's aftermath, or it's run-up.... All of these would be a lot easier if they were able to say over 100 years, all this stuff gets destroyed, all this stuff gets made, here we are completely clean slate without all the chaos. Disturbingly, this makes a kind of insane sense. "Alright, we're changing the way magic works for 4E. How can we make that happen, guys?" "Spellplague! All the Vancian casters get killed off!" "Hey, great idea. But, wait, how do we explain that?" "Why bother?! Just say that we've moved ahead a hundred years! It all happened in the past, and due to the destruction, no one knows what happened. Then we don't have to worry about any of the details! Hah!" "Brilliant! They'll buy that!" :headexplo |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin09-17-07, 04:28 PM | But: Thay? Mulhorand? Sembia? I wonder why Drizzt mentions these, why he would even think of them. He never went to any of them before, and probably hasn't since the change, so why are these first on his mind? And why does he think that all hope of a "tamed and gentle world" is gone because Thay is destabilized?:confused: Need I say more? Sembia, a country that often harasses Cormyr and the Dalelands in obvious attempts at land-grabbing? Mulhorand, which has slavery (and no, I don't differentiate between "good" slavery and "bad" slavery, and I won't argue about it with anyone)? |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin09-17-07, 06:00 PM | I don't talk about Elminster, but about all the other humans. Danilo Thann, Dag Zoreth, Bronwyn, Piergeiron, Mirt, Alusair, Scyula, .... Spoiler for Scyllua: She already bit the dust in the recent Shadowdale Adventure. |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin09-17-07, 06:02 PM | 3) I don't remember the year (and I could be wrong), but I seem to recall reading that one year in the 1380's is called the Year of the Circumnavigation. That doesn't ring a bell for me. |
| Stonehinge09-17-07, 08:03 PM | That doesn't ring a bell for me. It shouldn't I should have checked my source a bit better. There is a Year of the Voyage but that doesn't occur until the 1390's. |
| MarkusTay6309-17-07, 09:05 PM | 1400 DR is the year of lost ships... |
| msatran09-17-07, 10:19 PM | Yeah, as far as I'm concerned, this is going to be big trouble. I have 50 or so active PC's. All my PC casters have to make a saving throw or suffer permanent insanity and rot? Gee, thanks, Wizards. Create a situation where NO ONE can play their old PCs. |
| Passivearmada09-18-07, 06:58 PM | Well, RAS has definitely punched everyone who think he immortalizes his characters in the face, Sure, I think Cattie-Brie will survive because. . . well something about romance and the Spellplague: anyways he'll find a way. But the frind that died with Luskan could easily be Captain Deudermont, who would already be dead from age by the time the Orc King begins. Mmmm, Wulfgar's probably dead.... Regis might've bought some life prolonger, but otherwise he's old or dead. But the fall of Luskan (once-proud), doesn't have to mean it was destroyed. Perhaps the underground criminals rose to riot and anarchy, making Luskan not-proud, and in the revolt, killing many guards and innocents. Now the Spirit Soaring probably just died with Cadderly, due to some new connection we don't know about. But look at the other titles- the Pirate King, and the Ghost King: now that Deudermont's dead, pirates can roam free, and now that a lot of great wizards have died, there are a lot of ghosts. And for all you whiners that are crying over your wizard, well who says that its law that you play after the Spellplague? Just play in the past- so simple. |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin09-19-07, 05:30 PM | Yeah, as far as I'm concerned, this is going to be big trouble. I have 50 or so active PC's. All my PC casters have to make a saving throw or suffer permanent insanity and rot? Gee, thanks, Wizards. Create a situation where NO ONE can play their old PCs. Why not just ignore all this stuff? There's no good reason to follow WotC's example slavishly if you don't like it. |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin09-19-07, 05:32 PM | But the fall of Luskan (once-proud), doesn't have to mean it was destroyed. Perhaps the underground criminals rose to riot and anarchy, making Luskan not-proud, and in the revolt, killing many guards and innocents. Well, Luskan wasn't exactly a utopia to begin with... I thought it was funny how all pretty much all of the places Drizzt laments about are not exactly beacons of hope in the current time period (ie. Thay)--none of them are places Drizzt would find praiseworthy, anyway. |
| Passivearmada09-20-07, 07:35 PM | Too true, but there needs to be some way to fill us in on what's happenned in a century, it just so happens that RAS decided to do it in the prologue. And yes, a little poorly, but the message has been sent. |
| MarkusTay6309-20-07, 09:32 PM | They gave RAS an entire century to write in with out screwing up any lore. I hope all of you people who complained about RAS's inability to stick to canon are happy now. :rolleyes: |
| Diffan09-20-07, 09:57 PM | They gave RAS an entire century to write in with out screwing up any lore. I hope all of you people who complained about RAS's inability to stick to canon are happy now. :rolleyes: 100 years? I'm almost positive that the jump is only 10. As for him re-writing history, lets be honest and just say that it only messes up stats for his already statted characters (which I might add shouldn't be considered cannon considering the conversion to 3.5). |
| Jürgen Hubert09-21-07, 07:03 AM | ' In fact, the thing I fear the most is everyone else's attitude - if people don't 'buy into' the new FR, its going to go bye-bye forever. You are correct in mentioning that WotC is a business, and is there to make money, so it will not keep a failing line afloat. Thats why I keep urging everyone to at least look at the 4e FRCS before giving up. Oh, there's always major anxiety before a major change - whether the change involves rules or a setting. But in the end, gamers will buy the new stuff anyway... |
| MerrikCale09-21-07, 08:16 AM | Why not just ignore all this stuff? There's no good reason to follow WotC's example slavishly if you don't like it. Exactly. Plus, there is no reason why you can't just say "hey, everyone made the save roll" |
| Passivearmada09-21-07, 06:15 PM | Exactly. Plus, there is no reason why you can't just say "hey, everyone made the save roll" Is that sarcasm? Because it is nice to do that every once in a while. |
| MarkusTay6309-21-07, 06:28 PM | No, I'm sure he was 100% serious. Thats would I would do... if I even bothered to use the Spellplague - something that has nothing to do with either spells or plagues, BTW. What Brain Surgeon thought up that title, anyway? Or do you guys just draw RSE's out of a hat? :smirk: |
| Passivearmada09-22-07, 09:28 AM | Eh, Spellplague is kind of catchy. And it makes some sense. I don't keep up with the Reams as much as I should, but isn't it when Mystra dies, and all spellcasters lost spell access? |
| MarkusTay6309-22-07, 11:55 PM | Mystra dies, and Mages go insane. No Spells. No Plague. Dumb. :rolleyes: |
| Passivearmada09-23-07, 01:16 PM | Well, it's kind if catchy to me. Do you want it to be the Mystradienospells era? Let's cme up with a better name, though. The Spelldrought! :rolleyes: |
| MarkusTay6309-23-07, 01:26 PM | The Arcanedraught The Eldritchabyss The Dweomerdeath How about just "The Time of No Magic"? :rolleyes: The Apocalypse? Armeggedon? The "Cosmic Conflagration" Ragnarok? The "Cryptic Cataclysm" The "Great Conjunction"... oh wait... <they're saving that for the 'Merger of Two Worlds'> ;) |
| GothicDan09-23-07, 01:34 PM | I actually like the Dweomerdeath a lot. |
| MarkusTay6309-23-07, 02:02 PM | Truth be told, that was my favorite as well. :D |
| Passivearmada09-23-07, 03:06 PM | The Arcanedraught The Eldritchabyss The Dweomerdeath How about just "The Time of No Magic"? :rolleyes: The Apocalypse? Armeggedon? The "Cosmic Conflagration" Ragnarok? The "Cryptic Cataclysm" The "Great Conjunction"... oh wait... <they're saving that for the 'Merger of Two Worlds'> ;) Funny, they had the Time of Troubles, but it's not the Time of No Magic. Nice ideas MarcusTay63 |
| Dark Wizard09-23-07, 03:59 PM | Dweomerdeath! I could go for that. |
| msatran09-23-07, 09:06 PM | The problem is that it's really more like Dweomer Constipation. So which group of NPC's will develop mystic prune juice and fix it? |
| GothicDan09-23-07, 09:12 PM | The Twisted Rune. I have a little evilgasm every time I think of them. |
| Reneshat09-24-07, 02:18 AM | The Arcanedraught The Eldritchabyss The Dweomerdeath How about just "The Time of No Magic"? :rolleyes: The Apocalypse? Armeggedon? The "Cosmic Conflagration" Ragnarok? The "Cryptic Cataclysm" The "Great Conjunction"... oh wait... <they're saving that for the 'Merger of Two Worlds'> ;) The "Breaking of the World?" :D |
| MarkusTay6309-24-07, 02:28 AM | Nice, I like it. :D So which group of NPC's will develop mystic prune juice and fix it? The Twisted Rune. I have a little evilgasm every time I think of them.So, in 4e, will they be known as the 'Twisted Prune'? ;) (some of them looked the part) |
| Diffan09-27-07, 08:44 AM | The "Breaking of the World?" :D Pull that one from Robert Jordan? :thinks: |
| msatran09-27-07, 12:30 PM | Cormyrean Farmer #1: Darn, my shadow weave maters aren't growin as well. Even mah plum trees seem t' be failin. They're all wrinkled and nasty looking. Cormyrean Farmer #2: (Munch, munch, munch...) Mmm...but the wrinkled plums sure are tasty. Mmm...wh...oh...no... Cormyrean Farmer #2 RUNS to the outhouse, and slams the door. Horrible noises are heard from within. Meanwhile, outside. Orc Farmer #1 to Cormyrean Farmer #2: You know, ever since we had a king, you look less and less tasty. However, in light of this new development and no witnesses... Cormyrean Farmer #1: NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO! (Horrible eating sounds ensue...) Meanwhile...from the outhouse... "Mah shadow weave taint! It's gone!" |
| Reneshat09-27-07, 12:37 PM | Pull that one from Robert Jordan? :thinks: Well if the shoe already seems like a rip off.... |
| MarkusTay6309-27-07, 01:31 PM | So, that 'farmer' story gave me an idea - Obould meets with Alustriel and asks for her help in making his people less 'agressive'. She uses HER mages, and enlists the aid of the Harpers, Moonstars, War wizards, Elven Council of Doom, etc... to work on the problem. Even Drizzt is brought on board because we all know that he can spontaneously develop whatever skills he needs to solve ANY problem (much like Chuck Norris). After the Harpels finally join in the research, a new type of vegetable is created that tastes EXACTLY like meat (and provides the same nutrients). And so, in 4e FR will finally get Cabbage Patch Kids. :D Pull that one from Robert Jordan? :thinks:No wonder it sounded good to me.. :rolleyes: |
| Charles Phipps10-05-07, 09:47 PM | Anyone think the Spellplague happens after all the human casters are expected to have died out of the current crop? |