Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Sroblin 08-04-07, 05:32 PM	...being dead? I've run into some off-hand comments about the great mage biting the dust, and the most I've been able to figure out is that he somehow died resurrecting the lost elven city of Mirietar? How did this happen? (Plus, I heard he passed on his staff to some apprentice I've never heard of, and Laeral's got twins on the way...) So basically, I'm wondering how and why this came to pass, and where was this written? More importantly, I'm annoyed and alarmed that we've just seen another iconic character of the setting getting offed. (Halaster it seems met his own doom in an innapropriately inglorious fashion.) I don't doubt there's some additional context I'm missing here, but I don't like that these major characters seem to be killed off for obscure causes (why not in some more epic confrontation against an old enemy)? Khelben wasn't my favorite character by any means, but I feel as if they feel like they need to wipe out major characters to get our attention, in rather less than fitting circumstances. (Well, I am noticing I suppose, and it's not like the Realms couldn't afford a few less archamges...but still.) I'm tempted to rant on about this, but maybe I'm just out of touch and off base, so I'd like to hear what others think about this.
MarkusTay63 08-04-07, 05:46 PM	It does seem like they are 'offing' certain setting icons, just as was done when From the Ashes was released for Greyhawk. BTW, that box was supposed to herald in a new age for GH fans, but instead of garnering new interest, long-time fans got disgusted and switched to FR. Can anyone say 'Eberron'? ;) Spoiler from Blackstaff - Yeah, he died performing a "High Magic Ritual" - you know, the kind ONLY Elves should be able to cast. :uh-huh: It was in order to bring back a city from the ancient realm of Miyeritar - the realm that was destroyed by the Dark Disaster. The funny thing is that Miyeritar was a DARK ELVEN realm, and there were NO Dark Elves brought back - just some Faerie Elves, Gnomes, Centaurs, etc... :confused: Some definate RASian research done there... :rolleyes: No rant, just acute observations.
Sroblin 08-04-07, 06:11 PM	But why woud he sacrifice himself to raise a long dead Elven city? And what was the 'point' of his death- was it supposed to be merely shocking, or did it have some point as to the whole Forgotten Realms meta-plot. I don't know, I'm beginning to wonder if the Eberron folks have it right with there being no 'advancing plot', because I don't like the fact that characters )and sometimes countries and gods) I've come to think of as integral elements of the setting are dropping like flies when they need to get a rise out of the book sales. I don't know, it's exciting reading about new events int he realms, but I find I don't end up liking half of them and they make my knowldge of the world obsolete...
Dark Wizard 08-04-07, 06:13 PM	The author of Blackstaff is Steven Schend. I think he did his research.
GothicDan 08-04-07, 06:16 PM	Blackstaff is one of the few novels I've approved of lately. And as Dark Wizard said, I don't think it's wise to fault Schend on things concerning Khelben...
Faraer 08-04-07, 06:17 PM	Sroblin, I sympathize with your overall feelings -- the Realms will only stretch so far before it starts looking like it's had too much plastic surgery. But please read Blackstaff before jumping to conclusions here.
Lord Karsus 08-04-07, 06:46 PM	Spoiler from Blackstaff -Yeah, he died performing a "High Magic Ritual" - you know, the kind ONLY Elves should be able to cast. :uh-huh: -And, what is the problem? Khelben had a large amount of Elven Blood within him. His father, after all, was Arun. Some definate RASian research done there... :rolleyes: -Hardly. While the above mentioned Elves, Centaurs, Gnomes, and so on in the city was something that I wasn't expecting, it isn't fair to Steve to compare him to Salvatore. -Also, OP, note that Khelben's death was not in vain, and totally random, like Halaster's death was. Khelben was born with a destiny, and he died fufilling that destiny.
GothicDan 08-04-07, 06:56 PM	Spoiler from Blackstaff -Yeah, he died performing a "High Magic Ritual" - you know, the kind ONLY Elves should be able to cast. With the blessing of the Seldarine, even humans could perform Elven High Magic. Schend was the one who MADE the rules for EHM. He, if anyone, should know when they can be bent.
Meldread 08-04-07, 07:00 PM	I don't know, I'm beginning to wonder if the Eberron folks have it right with there being no 'advancing plot', because I don't like the fact that characters )and sometimes countries and gods) I've come to think of as integral elements of the setting are dropping like flies when they need to get a rise out of the book sales. I don't know, it's exciting reading about new events int he realms, but I find I don't end up liking half of them and they make my knowldge of the world obsolete... I have been saying that for a long time. My suggestion to fix it was to halt the time line advancement, and with each novel release give people the OPTION to purchase a PDF that illustrates the changes made to the game world. That way if someone wants to incorporate a novels changes to their setting they can, but if they don't like it they can ignore it. This gives authors unprecedented freedom. Want to blow up Cormyr? Go right ahead! Want to kill off Elminster? Go to it! Want to create an insanely uber character that conquers half the world? No problem! Want to wipe out an entire pantheon of gods? Sure thing! If I like what they do and the changes made I'll bring it into my Realms, and if not I can ignore it and just enjoy the story. As it stands I refuse to buy ANY of the novels in protest. I only buy sourcebooks and learn what happens in the novels second hand. I hate not being able to give support to FR authors, because I am sure some of the stories are great, but at the same time I am voting with my wallet on the issue.
GothicDan 08-04-07, 07:03 PM	See, and I'd probably never read a novel unless it was canon, or at least published by authors who I know in the past have properly respected canon. I'd still read Elaine's stuff, at the very least get to know as much about Ed's as I could, and Schend's. Of course, oddly enough, anything printed by Ed is canon as per his contract, so he'd be the only novelist who was writing canon still, and there's little WotC could do about it. ;) It's amusing how people can respond so differently to feeling basically the same thing.
sillaric_culdanin 08-04-07, 09:58 PM	For me personally, I feel that the novels advancing the timeline help the Realms feel vital to me... they change and grow as all things do. I like eventually understanding mysteries laid down in old lore through the exploits of one character or another. Khelben's death was poignant and well thought out IMO. The only change I would have liked to have seen would be to spread the tale of the fulfillment of his destiny over a trilogy rather than a single novel, but you can't have everything. With regard to the dark elves not returning... I would guess that was tied to the fact that Corellan's cursing of the Illythiiri affected ALL dark elves, be they actively evil at the time or not. Who knows the temporal repercussions magic powerful enough to cast down an entire subrace of creatures (numbering in the millions at least) would entail. Dan has the right of it with questioning Steve Schend, there are echoes of his wisdom in most if not all parts of the Realms as we know them. No one is infallable of course, but whatever decisions Schend made when he finalized this novel, you can all rest assured that he made them from a foundation of deep knowledge about both the past and present Realms... and a knowledge of Khelben that is likely unmatched by any save Ed... and maybe not even the creator himself.
Meldread 08-04-07, 10:05 PM	Yeah, I agree with you Dan but there is irony there. I wouldn't want to read a novel unless I thought it was GOOD, therefore if novels (or a particular author) basically sucked why should we buy it? Furthermore, if a group of novels sucks horribly why in the world would we want them to be mandatory cannon? :P A lot of people hate the Shadow Weave for example, but I happen to like the concept so I would incorporate it into my game. Others here simply ignore its existence and that is perfectly fine, we are already doing what I suggest. However, at the same time it upsets absolutely everyone at one point or another when canonical changes are made to the Realms. Some don't like what is happening to the Drow Pantheon in the Spider Queen books. Others do. My problem with the whole thing is that it undermines the whole purpose of playing in the Forgotten Realm's. I pay for the books so I can play in a pre-made setting. I like to have the ability to alter the world sometimes, make changes here or there, but over all I like having most of that stuff done for me. It is my opinion (one that I believe is well founded) that novels do not translate well into D&D. (See the Larloch thread.) So what makes a epic fantasy novel great doesn't necessary do much to improve the D&D setting. Epic battles that destroy entire countries are all well and good, after the novel is published and made cannon they've altered the world which I've worked hard to familiarize. What's more is that eventually WotC will get around to publishing another regional source book that will incorporate the changes made in the novel. If I happen to say, want my Sembia still in tact, I would have to either rely on old source material or fill in the gaps myself. If I am going to go through the work of having to fill in the gaps myself, then why am I even gaming in an established setting since I am essentially having to do much of the leg work to make it my own? So we are left with two choices: Accept the canonical changes (my typical path) or go through the work of editing this event or that event out, and having to deal with possible inconsistencies. Heh, I guess I just want to have my cake and eat it too. I think Sroblin sums it up though: "I don't know, it's exciting reading about new events in the realms, but I find I don't end up liking half of them and they make my knowledge of the world obsolete..." That quote pretty much sums it up.
The Simbul 08-04-07, 10:16 PM	The only thing that makes Khelben's demise acceptable in my eyes and in my campaign is that Schend authored it, and that he in turn gave the realms the restored City of High Magic and the soon to be born Arunsun twins (safely tucked away with their mother in aforementioned high-magic protected city) in exchange. Of course even then I still take that with a bit of reservation. Schend does not work for WoTC anymore, and in the chaos of a shared fictional world as diverse as this one we can find instances where the work of one author ends up being omitted, or ignored, or trumped, or simply steamrolled over by another. That combined with current nothing-is-sacred trends leads me to the perhaps pessimistic and/or paranoid predisposition that I do not trust WoTC with Laeral, or her unborn twins, or the City of High Magic. For example, after.. Halaster Blackcloak being arbitrarily blown up in the opening prologue of the Undermountain adventure module and after.. Syluné Silverhand being written off in a virtually unalterable narrative "cut scene" in Shadowdale: SoTL I then, for example, would no longer consider it beyond WoTC/Hasbro to allow some new author to come out of nowhere and simply kill off Laeral and/or her twins in childbirth (and in predictable fashion use creative license as an excuse to ignore any "inconvenient" rules factors that would make that impossible--like say her CON score of 26, her Fort save of +27, her Endurance feat, half a dozen sisters with wish spells on hand as midwives, or the divine protection and intervention of a Greater Deity..etc). Or worst case scenario, have Shar--the current & egregiously overused/overexposed "it girl" of FR villainy--casually walk along and mass divine blast the city of high magic into oblivion, only to have the event be covered in a footnote in an adventure module or regional lorebook just for the sake of letting us all know why it suddenly isn't there anymore...
GothicDan 08-04-07, 10:23 PM	Simbul, I adore that post. <3
Meldread 08-04-07, 10:27 PM	Run! Run! Take cover! :hides: The Simbul hath unleashed her fury and let lose the dogs of war! :P
Lord Karsus 08-04-07, 10:55 PM	Syluné Silverhand being written off in a virtually unalterable narrative "cut scene" in Shadowdale: SoTL -That, I did not know. Yet, it doesn't surprise me at all...:rolleyes: :nonono: -If you don't mind, what exactly happens?
The Simbul 08-04-07, 11:16 PM	-That, I did not know. Yet, it doesn't surprise me at all...:rolleyes: :nonono: -If you don't mind, what exactly happens?I am actually working on a few new thread topics regarding the adventure as a whole (which is still overall a VERY good adventure mind you)--that I probably will post in a day or two. I don't want to get into too much detail/discussion on it here because I do not want to hijack the thread, or risk someone further along in the discussion inadvertently failing to mask a spoiler on it within.
Krash 08-05-07, 08:05 AM	Yeah, he died performing a "High Magic Ritual" - you know, the kind ONLY Elves should be able to cast. :uh-huh: It was in order to bring back a city from the ancient realm of Miyeritar - the realm that was destroyed by the Dark Disaster. The funny thing is that Miyeritar was a DARK ELVEN realm, and there were NO Dark Elves brought back - just some Faerie Elves, Gnomes, Centaurs, etc... :confused: Some definate RASian research done there... :rolleyes: No rant, just acute observations. Umm, read the book again. The first great working of magic, the Cleansing Ritual isn't High Magic (see p.333). The High Magic ritual that returns Rhymanthiin has the three-souled one (being Danthra, Tsarra and Khelben) with the addition of Ualair as the central caster. They in turn are supported by the three Grand Mages of Miyeritar and the whole casting is made possible by the Highfire Crown. That's about as elven as you get in my book. Yes, Miyeritar was a dark elven realm, but the dark elves in sharn form would have been transformed into drow if they had come out of sharn form (see p.335). Such is and was Corellon's will. Why this is the case has not been explained in current realmslore. Personally, I'm glad that yet another elven sub-race doesn't walk on the face of Faerūn. As for RASian research ... well, this book contains more previous realmslore and obscura than any other FR novel yet published. The research that was done was extensive to say the least - and I say that from personal knowledge. Just ask my hard drive. -- George Krashos
runestar 08-05-07, 10:01 AM	I am actually working on a few new thread topics regarding the adventure as a whole (which is still overall a VERY good adventure mind you)--that I probably will post in a day or two. I inexplicably find myself quivering with anticipation...:cloud9:
Lykor 08-05-07, 10:27 AM	IIRC, the sharn (elves, dwarves, centuar, etc) were given the option of turning back into normal, living beings. However, some of the sharn would have been back as drow and decided that being drow sucked, so they stayed as sharn. I thought it was kinda cool that Blackstaff (3/4 human) did what no full blooded elf did and cast the high magic ritual. Him dying still sucks though. Oh, and Halaster isn't dead until I say so. He owes me about 40g from a poker game.
Lord Karsus 08-05-07, 06:44 PM	Personally, I'm glad that yet another elven sub-race doesn't walk on the face of Faerūn. -Oh, the more, the merrier. ;)